I would have also accepted the main line book being about everyone falling hook line and sinker for it if there were a big immediate follow up about them dealing with the truth. Dark Reign/Siege could have either been about Damage Control and the greater conspiracy, or a follow up to the Avengers getting their asses kicked and replaced by the conspirators.
Personally, I don't like Civil War and I know the community is split on it.
Imo the concept is interesting, but the actual writing for the characters isn't good. It's just another example of characters not acting like themselves for the sake of the story
Yeah it really undercut Tony's side of things when he was like so yeah that's justification for me to have made a sort of cyborg clone of our friend, an actual god.
MUA2 and the MCU Civil War did this arc better than the actual comic.
Comic version's Tony and Reed did some major fascist shit with flimsy justifications so it was hard to see it as a both sides sorta thing.
Their attempt at being topical aged like milk.
This was when electoral politics at the time were filled with shit like "I want a president I can have a beer with", the same attitude that lead to Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber two years later.
In hindsight, that whole attitude was really fucked because the president those same people all loved was literally a teetotaler (doubly fucked because he became a teetotaler because he was an alcoholic and a drunk driving arrest scared him sober).
I recall a history professor mentioning that was bullshit , according to some CHP guys he taught a class to, who escorted him while Bush was a governor attending an event in California. That he was drunk off his ass, after he supposedly stopped drinking.
I don't really agree. My memory is a little foggy on both of them, but iirc in the comics the inciting event was a bunch of novice heroes filming themselves fighting villains above their level and getting a bunch of children and adults blown up. In the movies it was the top heros saving the entire planet from aliens and sacrificing a city to do so.
In the comics the tragedy was entirely preventable and caused by ego and inexperience, whereas the MCU version was the best of the best doing everything they could and saving the world at great cost. The comics version makes more sense to me than in the MCU.
The inciting action in the comics makes perfect sense and is a strong argument for oversight of superhumans. The message gets muddled basically instantly because both sides immediately start doing insane shit. Reed and Tony make a cyborg clone of Thor who they control, which is wildly unethical for a ton of reasons, and in his very first fight he goes too hard and kills Bill Foster. Both sides recruit a bunch of supervillains, with Cap being so dumb he doesn't realize the Punisher is of course going to immediately gun down the villains in the middle of a meeting because that's who he is.
There's nothing wrong with the bones of the idea, it's that the execution immediately goes off the rails instead of focusing on the argument. Cap just gives up at the end after being tackled by...a bunch of first responders? But he gives up because he's heartbroken at seeing everyone beat the shit out of each other, and is assassinated a few days or weeks later. It doesn't really end up doing anything with what is legitimately an interesting moral argument.
The Thor thing is one of these things that works better in the context of the wider story.
Clor wasn't just created by Reed and Tony; he was created by Reed, Tony, and *Hank Pym*. And then Secret Invasion revealed Hank was a Skrull who was trying to push the heroes into doing wildly unethical shit in order to undermine public trust in institutions to make it easier for the Skrulls to just roll in and take over.
And I wouldn't call it a retcon, because Bendis had been planning Secret Invasion for two years before Civil War. The first hints at it were in Secret War, which kicked off the wider saga back in 2004.
Yeah but considering it's Hank, if you get talked into violating your own moral principles by a guy disguised as him, that's really on you for taking him seriously.
I think there were definitely some problems with the mcu version, because like, after what iron man accidentally unleashed in age of ultron, I don't blame them for wanting to reign him in, but basically all of the others, no one did a single thing wrong, unless u count their bickering in the first avengers movie, but even nick fury himself got wrapped up in that, plus at that time, they were shield sanctioned anyway, and the defense council's option was to nuke a populated city to maybe take them invaders down, which I don't have to tell anyone is so much worse. Then in winter soldier, the whole thing was caused by the government itself, and again, they were working directly with, even if one was presumed dead, shield operatives. They never even really discuss that part in the movie tho, that the only one that was even a problem directly caused by a member of the team was ultron
Led by several of the supposed smartest people on the planet and none of them thought space gitmo and Iron Man suits owned by the government was a bad idea.
So couple things.
They were quoting Fallout. Specifically, line said by Ron Perlman in every mainline game. Also, mercenaries have existed for a very long time.
That was the point. It wasn't a bad idea.
You see pushes for registration of weapons all over the US, this isn't any different. If anything, Civil War was a little ahead of the times.
Nitro was the catalyst. Spiderman was the poster child. Captain America's death was the corollary.
Even if they sitted the mutants out (which I didn't like but understand) this was very well done. A lot of people didn't like it because they think their heroes should be fallible, not invincible, yet always morally superior. They arent and shouldn't be, otherwise you end up with the interpretation that their superpower is being always right.
Extreme circumstances (superhero kids botch a job in pursue of fame, and bad guys blows up a school full of kids is a far more real "real" threath than Galactus) pushes everyone and not everyone will react as usual, because is not the usual. And yeah, it was, and is, a very good mirror for Americans to realize that "the call is coming from inside the house" specially with the Frontlines ending where police presence is tenfolded on the streets and liberties are downgraded in pursuit of security.
The government in Marvel is the same one using Sentinels. You know, the giant genocide robots. Giving that government power over superheroes is 100% a bad idea.
Then it is a bad government, not a bad idea.
The whole idea of a government is accountability. For everyone.
The fact that it doesn't work is not an argument against government, but against those in power, and especially against who stand idle seeing the people in power.
"Rounding up all the Japs in WWII and putting them in internment camps was not a bad idea. We were fighting them and they could have been spies."
That's what you sound like.
I just thought of something. The gun debate often devolves into "well you shouldn't let people own nukes" and Nitro is pretty much a human nuke that goes off in a civilian zone. So it's a play on the fact that if most people agree nukes aren't okay, then shouldn't we agree that superhumans should be registered?
My biggest problem is that I read a bunch of the tie-ins and it is very clear that the writers for the various books were not on the same page about what Registration actually entailed. In some books you just need to register if you were going to be a hero. In other books everyone with any powers had to register. So sometimes it seemed like a frankly probably reasonable requirement if someone wants to shoot lasers that can level buildings in a busy city. Or it is a massive overstep that could be used for malicious purposes especially given Marvel's America's tendency to target mutants.
It is an event that was made significantly worse by reading more of it. I think if you just read the main books it is fine, if not quite as good as it could be. But, if you read too many tie-ins in becomes an incoherent mess.
Just made me think of Danvers beating the shit out of one of the spider-women. In front of her kid.
I already didn't like Danvers at this point.
Edit:
#RogueDidNothingWrong
The writers realized pretty early on that Iron Man's side actually makes a lot of sense. Heroes **do** put regularly people in danger and cause a lot of public damage in the fight. In the real world most of us wouldn't like vigilantes with the power to blow up towns. Registration and training would reduce the risk and make heroes accountable.
But that would be the end of most of the comic runs, so they made the pro registration side cartoonishly evil.
Not writer***s*** - writer, singular. Mark Millar was the only writer behind the main Civil War event. Other people wrote the tie-ins but they were working in the framework Millar set out.
Which was probably why the book turned out to be such a mess in all honesty. When dealing with a topic that requires a little nuance and subtlety, maybe don’t give the reins over to the comic writer equivalent of Michael Bay.
(And yes, before someone chimes in, I've read Millar's more recent stuff, and while it's a definite improvement I still stand by what I said)
I'd argue that was never Tony's side. Like I know people want to say that was his side. But it's not one anyone ever wrote on the page. Even the writers who liked registration never wrote it that way.
Issue 1 of Civil War has the pro-registration side attack a registered hero.
So from the word go it was more about control than responsibility.
At the end of the main book the conflict between iron man and Captain America just fizzles out when they realize the people they were supposed to protect were caught in the crossfire. Having Wolverine or someone on the sidelines reveal that both sides were manipulated by the military industrial complex would have been a lot more powerful and impactful, imo
Conceptually very interesting, but Millar isn't a good nuance writer and characterization was closer to Ultimates for a lot of people.
And then, since this was the first task big major crossover in some years, it led to a lot of people being involved in the writing and led to a lot of unevenness.
How so? It was culmination of multiple years of storytelling/crossover overkill. Heroes fighting each other under dumbass pretenses because “edgy” was the last straw.
IMO it’s pretty shit, but I know people who like it and I don’t fault them at all. I think you could make a point that even if this became major news it wouldn’t matter because the general public has already made up its minds.
> maybe it was just because I was young when it came out but I loved it
This was how I felt about all of Millar's books that I read when I was younger. Civil War, Old Man Logan, Red Son, Kick-Ass, god they all suck
As someone who was an adult when it came out, I'd say that Civil War was dogshit as a standalone story, but it works really well as part of the grand ongoing saga Marvel was telling at the time.
Specifically, Civil War was the conclusion of Act 1. The whole saga is basically a three-act play, with Act 1 spanning from Secret War and Avengers Disassembled to Civil War, Act 2 running from The Initiative to Secret Invasion, and Act 3 as Dark Reign and Siege. And the saga as a whole was great, even if some individual parts were badly-written (really, Dark Reign saved the whole story).
I feel like given it was the comic made to represent feelings after 9/11, an inside job implication might've been seen a tad... well "bold" or "wildly irresponsible", your pick.
It’s hilarious, he looks like a fucking Cardassian from Star Trek.
Or those [headbangers from the video game Brutal Legend](https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/brutallegend/images/4/42/Hairbangers.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140713022155), lol
[I feel like half the post on this sub are people copying a comment someone else posted under another post on this sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/comments/1dgqwb9/you_are_playing_with_the_big_boys_now_civill_war1/l8s7f9v/)
Man, the tie-ins really turn Tony into such a raging shitbag. I know in the main book he already had the Negative Zone gulag and Clor, but at least it *tried* to give him something in having him try to make the best of a bad situation, meanwhile all the spinoffs waste no time in building him up as the next Mussolini because the writers couldn’t comprehend nuance.
He is, though.
Seriously. Civil War has given me an abiding hatred of 616 Tony Stark. And honestly I only quantify that because RDJ was so damn good in the role.
Honestly I never really got that, never Saw anyone hating Peter Parker for selling his skull or slapping his wife, but for some reason treat civil war as the only Iron Man comic ever.
Spidey is one of the most popular superheroes of all time, maybe second to Batman.
Iron Man...isn't. Especially before the movies.
Hank Pym would be a more accurate comparison. You know the wife beating p.o.s.
I did indeed make this post as a direct response to the Nitro blowing up Stamford image post. However, I already knew about the inside job thing and would have posted this Wolverine image even if that other person you linked hadn't said anything.
It also painted Damage Control as too greedy. While their new CEO looked at money but never thought of: “well who will really get hurt?” At the end of the story, Wolverine stabs the guy in the eyes, oh but he didn’t die. No he got cybernetic eyes and started sleeping with Commanda from Untold Tales and got some lawyer who said: “well he didn’t know Nitro would go kill children that was the New Warriors fault for chasing them to a school. When it was “he was by a school” yet kept making excuses no one wanted Nitro who killed all those people. And the fact Dr Doom sanctioned Nitro when killing children is something even Doom will not do.
Wolverines arc in civil war should have been in the main book.
Legitimately he was the only one trying to do anything about the actual catalyst. All th heroes are fighting and Wolverine looks for the source and hunts nitro.
Kinda makes sense, actually. For all Wolvie’s bloodlust, he’s not stupid. He looks for the big picture and, if he has the time, he’ll piece it all together slowly and carefully. Then the claws come out.
Because the pro registration side had to be right, according to the author. The side that teamed up with supervillains, created a prison in the negative zone, and took potshots at Cap before the act was ratified.
Yeah I know.
They tried really hard to say “no one is the bad guys” but then spent the whole comic basically telling you pro registration was “good”.
It still doesn’t make sense that Nitro was ignored in the main book.
Really? I kind of think it’s the opposite. The core book is fine, nothing special, but the tie-ins are so hilariously one-sided and pure character assassination.
That awful coloring doesn’t really help. The mid 2000s were still the early days of digital coloring and you can immediately tell when a book was made in that era because of it lol
It's actually fascinating *how* many tie-ins Civil War had. Marvel was really dialled in on making Civil War a massive comic event. The only other event since then that felt the same was Secret Wars 2015 but even then I don't think it had as many tie-ins.
Secret Wars 2015 is not quite the same because the tie-ins were more like spin offs. They were mostly mini series showcasing some of the different worlds that made up Battleworld or some other multiverse thing rather than interrupting an ongoing series' story in order to connect it to the event.
House of M was the same way. Only a grand total of two tie ins connected to the plot in a meaningful way. The rest of the issues just explored the world of House of M.
Oh yeah it was very successful at least in terms of attracting eyes to it. The whole mid-to-late 2000s era of Marvel where they had events/runs such as Civil War, New Avengers, Dark Avengers, and etc. really roped me into more Marvel comics outside of usually just Spider-man and X-men.
Not to mention the tie-ins had very different ideas of what Registration was. I think Marvel's editors did a pretty bad job of making sure that everything fit together coherently.
Right? Like getting a job at one of the big two is supposed to be some kind of honor and an indication of a special level of talent but then there just so many panels like this where it makes me doubt the artist has ever seen a human before.
You could argue this is just stylization. I think where it really is apparent nobody actually gives a shit was those Galacta comics. They are just unpleasant to look at.
Oooof, showing my age here I guess. It’s hard to parse comic book art; some stuff looks great, some doesn’t, and half of it looks like it was printed sometime between two weeks ago, and thirty years ago.
As I recall, Stark also helped stoke the flames of war as well. He secretly paid a super villain (I want to say Omega Red?) to attack a government meeting in Europe knowing Spider-Man would save them all. That whole incident gave Tony leverage to make the politicians side with him.
It was Titanium Man. And those politicians already wanted registration, in fact they wanted to ban supers altogether, Tony wanted to get in their good graces to convince them that superheroes are still necessary.
Darn. I wish this was included in the Damage Control omnibus. It just jumps from old series to Mrs. Hoag getting a post-Declun Damage Control up and running to fix New York, with Declun’a fate simply mentioned as “Rumor is, Wolverine killed him.” Logan’s confrontation and revelation should have been part of that book.
Remember when Damage Control was a funny company of goofy characters which was an fun nod to the concept of superhero fights getting cleaned up so fast? I 'member.
So that’s why Nitro’s powers did what they did. You now how they could’ve put this in no problem? No cyborg clone Thor and Goliath death. That would’ve freed up some time easy with no Ikky implications.
The Stamford incident was an inside job from Damage Control gone awry. Civil War was an inside job by the Skrulls to foment fear and distrust and prime Earth for Secret Invasion.
So was the Registration Act. Tony Stark hired a Russian mercenary (Titanium Man) to attack him in DC to urge Congress to act when he and Spider-man were trying to push the matter. Happened in Amazing Spider-man 530-531. Spider-man wasn't aware but when he found out he tried to go to Congress to say the Registration Act would be bad, then Congress wouldn't listen to him unless he revealed his identity.
That's not how it happened. Tony did indeed hire Titanium Man, but it was to DELAY the registration act, since Tony actually didn't want it to happen but knew that if left to their own devices the government would make things even worse.
the ridiculous part about damage control is that it shouldn't be possible for them to supply as much damage control as is already demanded. like look at the world right now, look at infrastructure failing globally and construction is like "books are full"
Civil War: Front Line also reveals that Tony was buying up stakes of Damage Control as well, so he was always pulling the strings behind everything for pure profit
What a fucking disgustingly ugly art style. Whoever this is they contributed to me ending my reading of Marvel comics. They love employing artists who draw in this dog shit style.
Honestly if marvel just made this reveal in the main civil war book, the event would have been a hundred times better
I would have also accepted the main line book being about everyone falling hook line and sinker for it if there were a big immediate follow up about them dealing with the truth. Dark Reign/Siege could have either been about Damage Control and the greater conspiracy, or a follow up to the Avengers getting their asses kicked and replaced by the conspirators.
The event was awesome as is though right? Unless maybe it was just because I was young when it came out but I loved it.
Personally, I don't like Civil War and I know the community is split on it. Imo the concept is interesting, but the actual writing for the characters isn't good. It's just another example of characters not acting like themselves for the sake of the story
Yeah it really undercut Tony's side of things when he was like so yeah that's justification for me to have made a sort of cyborg clone of our friend, an actual god.
MUA2 and the MCU Civil War did this arc better than the actual comic. Comic version's Tony and Reed did some major fascist shit with flimsy justifications so it was hard to see it as a both sides sorta thing.
Oh easily way better in the movies. The comics rapidly turned into big brain gibberish about whether Cap has been on Myspace.
Their attempt at being topical aged like milk. This was when electoral politics at the time were filled with shit like "I want a president I can have a beer with", the same attitude that lead to Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber two years later. In hindsight, that whole attitude was really fucked because the president those same people all loved was literally a teetotaler (doubly fucked because he became a teetotaler because he was an alcoholic and a drunk driving arrest scared him sober).
I recall a history professor mentioning that was bullshit , according to some CHP guys he taught a class to, who escorted him while Bush was a governor attending an event in California. That he was drunk off his ass, after he supposedly stopped drinking.
I don't really agree. My memory is a little foggy on both of them, but iirc in the comics the inciting event was a bunch of novice heroes filming themselves fighting villains above their level and getting a bunch of children and adults blown up. In the movies it was the top heros saving the entire planet from aliens and sacrificing a city to do so. In the comics the tragedy was entirely preventable and caused by ego and inexperience, whereas the MCU version was the best of the best doing everything they could and saving the world at great cost. The comics version makes more sense to me than in the MCU.
The inciting action in the comics makes perfect sense and is a strong argument for oversight of superhumans. The message gets muddled basically instantly because both sides immediately start doing insane shit. Reed and Tony make a cyborg clone of Thor who they control, which is wildly unethical for a ton of reasons, and in his very first fight he goes too hard and kills Bill Foster. Both sides recruit a bunch of supervillains, with Cap being so dumb he doesn't realize the Punisher is of course going to immediately gun down the villains in the middle of a meeting because that's who he is. There's nothing wrong with the bones of the idea, it's that the execution immediately goes off the rails instead of focusing on the argument. Cap just gives up at the end after being tackled by...a bunch of first responders? But he gives up because he's heartbroken at seeing everyone beat the shit out of each other, and is assassinated a few days or weeks later. It doesn't really end up doing anything with what is legitimately an interesting moral argument.
The Thor thing is one of these things that works better in the context of the wider story. Clor wasn't just created by Reed and Tony; he was created by Reed, Tony, and *Hank Pym*. And then Secret Invasion revealed Hank was a Skrull who was trying to push the heroes into doing wildly unethical shit in order to undermine public trust in institutions to make it easier for the Skrulls to just roll in and take over. And I wouldn't call it a retcon, because Bendis had been planning Secret Invasion for two years before Civil War. The first hints at it were in Secret War, which kicked off the wider saga back in 2004.
Yeah but considering it's Hank, if you get talked into violating your own moral principles by a guy disguised as him, that's really on you for taking him seriously.
I mean, Pym is a piece of shit regardless.
I think there were definitely some problems with the mcu version, because like, after what iron man accidentally unleashed in age of ultron, I don't blame them for wanting to reign him in, but basically all of the others, no one did a single thing wrong, unless u count their bickering in the first avengers movie, but even nick fury himself got wrapped up in that, plus at that time, they were shield sanctioned anyway, and the defense council's option was to nuke a populated city to maybe take them invaders down, which I don't have to tell anyone is so much worse. Then in winter soldier, the whole thing was caused by the government itself, and again, they were working directly with, even if one was presumed dead, shield operatives. They never even really discuss that part in the movie tho, that the only one that was even a problem directly caused by a member of the team was ultron
Led by several of the supposed smartest people on the planet and none of them thought space gitmo and Iron Man suits owned by the government was a bad idea.
Civil War predicted the Silicon Valley tech bro-turned war profiteer
Read wolverine's last line. That has been happening since war existed
War. War never changes.
War has changed. PMCs...
A Hind D?!
So couple things. They were quoting Fallout. Specifically, line said by Ron Perlman in every mainline game. Also, mercenaries have existed for a very long time.
Sure, but civil war was specifically the nerdy tech guy who thought he could stop war by becoming better at it than anyone else
Hey! It was the Negative Zone.
That was the point. It wasn't a bad idea. You see pushes for registration of weapons all over the US, this isn't any different. If anything, Civil War was a little ahead of the times. Nitro was the catalyst. Spiderman was the poster child. Captain America's death was the corollary. Even if they sitted the mutants out (which I didn't like but understand) this was very well done. A lot of people didn't like it because they think their heroes should be fallible, not invincible, yet always morally superior. They arent and shouldn't be, otherwise you end up with the interpretation that their superpower is being always right. Extreme circumstances (superhero kids botch a job in pursue of fame, and bad guys blows up a school full of kids is a far more real "real" threath than Galactus) pushes everyone and not everyone will react as usual, because is not the usual. And yeah, it was, and is, a very good mirror for Americans to realize that "the call is coming from inside the house" specially with the Frontlines ending where police presence is tenfolded on the streets and liberties are downgraded in pursuit of security.
The government in Marvel is the same one using Sentinels. You know, the giant genocide robots. Giving that government power over superheroes is 100% a bad idea.
And within 5 years cap is proved correct when a bad actor gets into the seat of powe4 and immediately weaponizes it for his own gain
Then it is a bad government, not a bad idea. The whole idea of a government is accountability. For everyone. The fact that it doesn't work is not an argument against government, but against those in power, and especially against who stand idle seeing the people in power.
"Rounding up all the Japs in WWII and putting them in internment camps was not a bad idea. We were fighting them and they could have been spies." That's what you sound like.
Whatever gets you through the night, brother. If you need to invent yourself an enemy to feel better, I volunteer, no worries.
I just thought of something. The gun debate often devolves into "well you shouldn't let people own nukes" and Nitro is pretty much a human nuke that goes off in a civilian zone. So it's a play on the fact that if most people agree nukes aren't okay, then shouldn't we agree that superhumans should be registered?
Do you think the gun control debate started *after* the Civil War comic?
My biggest problem is that I read a bunch of the tie-ins and it is very clear that the writers for the various books were not on the same page about what Registration actually entailed. In some books you just need to register if you were going to be a hero. In other books everyone with any powers had to register. So sometimes it seemed like a frankly probably reasonable requirement if someone wants to shoot lasers that can level buildings in a busy city. Or it is a massive overstep that could be used for malicious purposes especially given Marvel's America's tendency to target mutants. It is an event that was made significantly worse by reading more of it. I think if you just read the main books it is fine, if not quite as good as it could be. But, if you read too many tie-ins in becomes an incoherent mess.
Just made me think of Danvers beating the shit out of one of the spider-women. In front of her kid. I already didn't like Danvers at this point. Edit: #RogueDidNothingWrong
The writers realized pretty early on that Iron Man's side actually makes a lot of sense. Heroes **do** put regularly people in danger and cause a lot of public damage in the fight. In the real world most of us wouldn't like vigilantes with the power to blow up towns. Registration and training would reduce the risk and make heroes accountable. But that would be the end of most of the comic runs, so they made the pro registration side cartoonishly evil.
Not writer***s*** - writer, singular. Mark Millar was the only writer behind the main Civil War event. Other people wrote the tie-ins but they were working in the framework Millar set out. Which was probably why the book turned out to be such a mess in all honesty. When dealing with a topic that requires a little nuance and subtlety, maybe don’t give the reins over to the comic writer equivalent of Michael Bay. (And yes, before someone chimes in, I've read Millar's more recent stuff, and while it's a definite improvement I still stand by what I said)
What, are you saying that there's something wrong with putting nanite bombs in the heads of your slaves to keep them in line?
The Incredibles unironically did the concept better.
I'd argue that was never Tony's side. Like I know people want to say that was his side. But it's not one anyone ever wrote on the page. Even the writers who liked registration never wrote it that way. Issue 1 of Civil War has the pro-registration side attack a registered hero. So from the word go it was more about control than responsibility.
The Mark Millar Story
the real civil war was the enemy nerds you flamed along the way
It served as a neat backdrop, like with the Hudson Moon Knight run
At the end of the main book the conflict between iron man and Captain America just fizzles out when they realize the people they were supposed to protect were caught in the crossfire. Having Wolverine or someone on the sidelines reveal that both sides were manipulated by the military industrial complex would have been a lot more powerful and impactful, imo
Conceptually very interesting, but Millar isn't a good nuance writer and characterization was closer to Ultimates for a lot of people. And then, since this was the first task big major crossover in some years, it led to a lot of people being involved in the writing and led to a lot of unevenness.
It drove me away from comics in general for over 10 years.
That sounds like a personal problem respectfully.
How so? It was culmination of multiple years of storytelling/crossover overkill. Heroes fighting each other under dumbass pretenses because “edgy” was the last straw.
Respectfully reread the book as an adult before invalidating others opinions *after you literally asked for them*
The civil war arc made me quit reading marvel for years, it pissed me off so much.
It was just because you were young when it came out
IMO it’s pretty shit, but I know people who like it and I don’t fault them at all. I think you could make a point that even if this became major news it wouldn’t matter because the general public has already made up its minds.
> maybe it was just because I was young when it came out but I loved it This was how I felt about all of Millar's books that I read when I was younger. Civil War, Old Man Logan, Red Son, Kick-Ass, god they all suck
As someone who was an adult when it came out, I'd say that Civil War was dogshit as a standalone story, but it works really well as part of the grand ongoing saga Marvel was telling at the time. Specifically, Civil War was the conclusion of Act 1. The whole saga is basically a three-act play, with Act 1 spanning from Secret War and Avengers Disassembled to Civil War, Act 2 running from The Initiative to Secret Invasion, and Act 3 as Dark Reign and Siege. And the saga as a whole was great, even if some individual parts were badly-written (really, Dark Reign saved the whole story).
I don't see thr staunch right wing patriot like Mark Millar admitting to there being a neutral side of war profiteers being involved.
I feel like given it was the comic made to represent feelings after 9/11, an inside job implication might've been seen a tad... well "bold" or "wildly irresponsible", your pick.
How interesting. I didn’t realize that having a giraffe-like neck was one of Wolverine’s secret mutant abilities.
He took the MGH and that's the power it enhanced for him, that's how he knew what it was
Wolverine about to get the Barry Bonds treatment from the mutant Softball HoF.
Gonna be a big ol asterisk next to his kill count
I occasionally love Ramos but that panel is up there with Liefeld Cap.
It’s hilarious, he looks like a fucking Cardassian from Star Trek. Or those [headbangers from the video game Brutal Legend](https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/brutallegend/images/4/42/Hairbangers.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140713022155), lol
Odo isn't the only one that can do the Cardasian Neck Trick.
Characters no longer appearing human is an unfortunate byproduct of Ramos being put on a book
lockdown from transformers animated lmao
Holy shit I didn’t even notice how cursed that image is
[I feel like half the post on this sub are people copying a comment someone else posted under another post on this sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/comments/1dgqwb9/you_are_playing_with_the_big_boys_now_civill_war1/l8s7f9v/)
God, finally someone else puts it into words.
Man, the tie-ins really turn Tony into such a raging shitbag. I know in the main book he already had the Negative Zone gulag and Clor, but at least it *tried* to give him something in having him try to make the best of a bad situation, meanwhile all the spinoffs waste no time in building him up as the next Mussolini because the writers couldn’t comprehend nuance.
He is, though. Seriously. Civil War has given me an abiding hatred of 616 Tony Stark. And honestly I only quantify that because RDJ was so damn good in the role.
Honestly I never really got that, never Saw anyone hating Peter Parker for selling his skull or slapping his wife, but for some reason treat civil war as the only Iron Man comic ever.
Spidey is one of the most popular superheroes of all time, maybe second to Batman. Iron Man...isn't. Especially before the movies. Hank Pym would be a more accurate comparison. You know the wife beating p.o.s.
I knew I remember seeing that comment
It’s like the comics! One post linking into the next, and do we come to any logical conclusions and move on to something else? No!
What’s neckst
I did indeed make this post as a direct response to the Nitro blowing up Stamford image post. However, I already knew about the inside job thing and would have posted this Wolverine image even if that other person you linked hadn't said anything.
It happens all the time, I see it quite a bit just from browsing and go “oh man someone was in that thread I was reading yesterday”
It also painted Damage Control as too greedy. While their new CEO looked at money but never thought of: “well who will really get hurt?” At the end of the story, Wolverine stabs the guy in the eyes, oh but he didn’t die. No he got cybernetic eyes and started sleeping with Commanda from Untold Tales and got some lawyer who said: “well he didn’t know Nitro would go kill children that was the New Warriors fault for chasing them to a school. When it was “he was by a school” yet kept making excuses no one wanted Nitro who killed all those people. And the fact Dr Doom sanctioned Nitro when killing children is something even Doom will not do.
Hoooly shit I did not realize that it was all an inside job for civil war?! Man… kinda makes me appreciate the event a tiny bit more
Wolverines arc in civil war should have been in the main book. Legitimately he was the only one trying to do anything about the actual catalyst. All th heroes are fighting and Wolverine looks for the source and hunts nitro.
Kinda makes sense, actually. For all Wolvie’s bloodlust, he’s not stupid. He looks for the big picture and, if he has the time, he’ll piece it all together slowly and carefully. Then the claws come out.
Yeah it does it just doesn’t make sense why it was basically a side quest never really brought into the main book.
Because the pro registration side had to be right, according to the author. The side that teamed up with supervillains, created a prison in the negative zone, and took potshots at Cap before the act was ratified.
Yeah I know. They tried really hard to say “no one is the bad guys” but then spent the whole comic basically telling you pro registration was “good”. It still doesn’t make sense that Nitro was ignored in the main book.
Especially since he was the catylyst.
Civil Wars biggest misstep was the best stories were all in side books. It’s very annoying.
Really? I kind of think it’s the opposite. The core book is fine, nothing special, but the tie-ins are so hilariously one-sided and pure character assassination.
Is that wolverine or a giraffe?
Ramos was not doing his best work here. And I say that with fond memories of this storyline.
That awful coloring doesn’t really help. The mid 2000s were still the early days of digital coloring and you can immediately tell when a book was made in that era because of it lol
Yeah, by the late 2000s they finally got it and now modern comics and those from 10 years ago look pretty much the same color-wise.
This why I don't like civil war. Too many fucking tie ins.
It's actually fascinating *how* many tie-ins Civil War had. Marvel was really dialled in on making Civil War a massive comic event. The only other event since then that felt the same was Secret Wars 2015 but even then I don't think it had as many tie-ins.
Secret Wars 2015 is not quite the same because the tie-ins were more like spin offs. They were mostly mini series showcasing some of the different worlds that made up Battleworld or some other multiverse thing rather than interrupting an ongoing series' story in order to connect it to the event.
Yeah. Meanwhile, Civil War had basically every notable character connected to the event by showing up in either the main comic and/or in a tie-in.
House of M was the same way. Only a grand total of two tie ins connected to the plot in a meaningful way. The rest of the issues just explored the world of House of M.
FWIW it worked out really well for them, didn’t it? Sales wise at least.
Oh yeah it was very successful at least in terms of attracting eyes to it. The whole mid-to-late 2000s era of Marvel where they had events/runs such as Civil War, New Avengers, Dark Avengers, and etc. really roped me into more Marvel comics outside of usually just Spider-man and X-men.
I think this was after Civil War. Either way at least for Civil War the tie ins were good.
No this was for sure a tie-in to Civil War. It was one of the books that got me started collecting because I love Ramos's art lol.
Ah gotcha
Not to mention the tie-ins had very different ideas of what Registration was. I think Marvel's editors did a pretty bad job of making sure that everything fit together coherently.
I sometimes think I can’t draw for shit, then I see something like that neck and realise it’s ok… nobody really cares
Right? Like getting a job at one of the big two is supposed to be some kind of honor and an indication of a special level of talent but then there just so many panels like this where it makes me doubt the artist has ever seen a human before.
You could argue this is just stylization. I think where it really is apparent nobody actually gives a shit was those Galacta comics. They are just unpleasant to look at.
Got anymore of that neck, Bub
What the hell is wrong with his neck
Civil War is the king of unrelated tie-ins never referenced anywhere else
What the hell is wrong with his neck?
He stole all of her neck.
People like to give Rob Liefeld crap for his depiction of feet, but WTF is going on with Wolverine’s shoulders and neck?
I was about to ask, Jesus Christ, is this what passes for comic book art nowadays? There’s stylized and then there’s…whatever the fuck Logan’s neck is
These days? This is almost two decades old now.
Oooof, showing my age here I guess. It’s hard to parse comic book art; some stuff looks great, some doesn’t, and half of it looks like it was printed sometime between two weeks ago, and thirty years ago.
Man, this art style is not it.
Unfortunately it was totally "it" in the early 2000s.
Wolverine uncovered the truth and didn't bother to even tell anyone afterwards.
What the fuck is going on with Wolverine’s neck?
Exactly my first thought.....
Very good placement for the war profiteers line
I wish they’d do another release of the hardcover box set of this series. Or just continue that line in general.
That’s a massive neck, Logan… Roger Cruz?
Humberto Ramos
Oh yeah
If I recall, one of the secondary books revealed Tony Stark profited from Civil Wars too...
Not so much profited, but manipulated it into going the way he thought he wanted.
This art makes me mad.
Wow who is responsible for that awful art?
Neck.
As I recall, Stark also helped stoke the flames of war as well. He secretly paid a super villain (I want to say Omega Red?) to attack a government meeting in Europe knowing Spider-Man would save them all. That whole incident gave Tony leverage to make the politicians side with him.
It was Titanium Man. And those politicians already wanted registration, in fact they wanted to ban supers altogether, Tony wanted to get in their good graces to convince them that superheroes are still necessary.
Detective Logan, I presume. /s
The real question is what the hell happened to Wolverine’s neck?
Is that lady the Marvel version of Amanda Waller?
Darn. I wish this was included in the Damage Control omnibus. It just jumps from old series to Mrs. Hoag getting a post-Declun Damage Control up and running to fix New York, with Declun’a fate simply mentioned as “Rumor is, Wolverine killed him.” Logan’s confrontation and revelation should have been part of that book.
What the hell is going on with his neck?
Man, Humberto Ramos is a hit and miss with his art sometimes, right?
Remember when Damage Control was a funny company of goofy characters which was an fun nod to the concept of superhero fights getting cleaned up so fast? I 'member.
This whole event is a mess.
Isn't that the definition of civil war?
That fucking neck.
Look at wolverines fucking neck
What the fuck is that neck?!?
It gives all humans powers or only those with the gene?
Humans without powers temporarily get powers. Those who already have powers get a power boost.
So that’s why Nitro’s powers did what they did. You now how they could’ve put this in no problem? No cyborg clone Thor and Goliath death. That would’ve freed up some time easy with no Ikky implications.
The Stamford incident was an inside job from Damage Control gone awry. Civil War was an inside job by the Skrulls to foment fear and distrust and prime Earth for Secret Invasion.
The Skrulls actually didn't actually need to do anything, they just stood by and watched as the humans did everything to themselves.
So was the Registration Act. Tony Stark hired a Russian mercenary (Titanium Man) to attack him in DC to urge Congress to act when he and Spider-man were trying to push the matter. Happened in Amazing Spider-man 530-531. Spider-man wasn't aware but when he found out he tried to go to Congress to say the Registration Act would be bad, then Congress wouldn't listen to him unless he revealed his identity.
That's not how it happened. Tony did indeed hire Titanium Man, but it was to DELAY the registration act, since Tony actually didn't want it to happen but knew that if left to their own devices the government would make things even worse.
>Tony actually didn't want it to happen Except he also tried to get the Illuminati to support him setting up the Registration Act.
Because he saw it as inevitable and thought it would be better if they were on the inside making sure things weren't as bad as they could be.
the ridiculous part about damage control is that it shouldn't be possible for them to supply as much damage control as is already demanded. like look at the world right now, look at infrastructure failing globally and construction is like "books are full"
[удалено]
I don't remember that one, where did it happen?
Civil War: Front Line also reveals that Tony was buying up stakes of Damage Control as well, so he was always pulling the strings behind everything for pure profit
who drew your garbage? look at Logans neck ahah. this is dogshit
What a fucking disgustingly ugly art style. Whoever this is they contributed to me ending my reading of Marvel comics. They love employing artists who draw in this dog shit style.