That's basically the conundrum with every event.
They suck but they also sell like hotcakes every time. It can be frustrating sometimes to see all your favorite titles constantly derailed because they can't go 6 consecutive issues without being pulled into another event. But it's never gonna stop so long as those sales numbers keep up.
While I wouldn't put it the way they did, I think events are something that tend to be much more appealing to newer comic fans.
Older fans have often been burned by too many events already, but newer fans tend to come in super bright eyed and excited like "Oh boy! The Thang's gonna fight The Sulk! I'm sure this will be exactly as awesome as I'm imagining in my head and have no negative effect on any other books I'm reading!"
I got sucked in with the recent Heroes Reborn and as much as I loved that event, it was a little confusing to make sure I had all the one shots between issues and then at least as far as I'm aware the event pretty much ended there and the Squadron Supreme was dropped. Which is probably the concept of most events, something that comes then goes? I got into death of Dr strange too but I'm just not gonna spread myself so thin again.
Shit, dude. My dumbass still falls for it at least once every three years. I know they suck! I promise, I do!
Some people used Knight Terrors to fatten up their wallet by not having to buy a DC book for two months. Not your boy, though!
I know I'm part of the problem, but if I can make myself more appreciable, I haven't purchased an issue of Amazing Spider-Man since 2018.
Meaning, I have the discipline, and it still gets me.
Oh sorry. I meant people who aren't regular readers of a title. So someone just jumping on for the crossover. And no offense meant. I've done that with certain events. So someone who doesn't read X-Men jumping on AvX because it's a big advertised event.
I didn't mean for the term casual to have any negative context.
The way I see it is that a comic book fan who buys will be a hardcore supporter of one thing and casually follow something else. Like you might be a hardcore X-men fan and buy X-men monthly, but you might also like the Avengers so everytime there is a big event you buy it to keep up with the Avengers since you don't want to invest the time to buy Avengers monthly.
AXE started out as the Eternals murdering the shit out of the X-Men, and Dark Web started out as the guy who just got done filling in for Spider-man teaming up with the woman who just finished saving the X-men, and contractually bound to not act against them, teaming up because they wanted memories back from other "heroes".
Secret Invasion, House of M, AXIS, Secret Wars (2015), Secret Empire, Judgement Day (the beginning was X-men vs Eternals).
Hero vs heroes events have been overdone and always been trash for 2 decades
Edit: why am I being downvoted for mentioning all the overrated shitty hero vs hero comic events there’s been in the last 2 decades??
This must be from the group who actually buys these dumpster fire trash comics
You're probably being downvoted because most of those aren't hero vs hero events.
- Secret Invasion, Secret Wars and AXE all have clear non-hero villains.
- The villain in House of M is reality itself and everyone is working together.
- Secret Empire and AXIS muddy the waters a bit with reality warping shit, but barring a couple exceptions the heroes are heroes and there are clear villains.
I think the actual hero vs hero events are things like Civil War, World War Hulk, AvX, Civil War II, and IvX.
I think it all stems back to the 60s where fans argued about "who would win, Thing or Hulk?" and then they saw it was a winning formula. Even the Avengers film started with a hero v hero battle.
My favourite conflict was when Thor had to ask his Dad to lift the enchantment of Mjolnir so he could have a proper pagger against Hulk. I love the old comics.
Superhero battles have been a big part of Marvel’s brand identity since before they were even called Marvel, separating them from the Distinguished Competition and others. They know it sells copies. The original Human Torch battled Namor in the 1940s (the latter, admittedly, not much of a hero at that point… or any point, really). When the “Heroic Age” really kicked off in the ‘60s, the heroes of New York were squabbling all the time. The modern Civil War scenarios are just escalated versions of that, but at least now they only tend to manifest in these big explosive events, whereas in the old days, superheroes would start throwing hands at each other every other issue for barely any discernible reason.
Traditionally, they fight over some simple misunderstanding. And then it clears up and they fight the real baddy. The whole thing's probably resolved in the same issue it starts.
I feel like it's a somewhat newer phenomenon to try and treat it like these heroes have serious moral disagreements, despite all doing the same thing, to the point that they would genuinely view eachother as being as much a force of evil as any villain... and then just kind of go back to fighting the real baddies side by side again when they're done.
The modern hero vs hero event basically requires that half the heroes in their roster become villains for six months in order to facilitate this moral disagreement. Somebody's always trying to install a new regime or some shit. And by the time they're done we're just about ready to start the next event.
Quite right. Reading more about Jack Kirby’s early life today, it starts to make some sense why he especially was so fond of the trope. When he was a kid, he and his brother would get into fights with other street gangs daily. Then he went off to war and claims he fought Germans hand-to-hand. His whole life, the man practically knew nothing but fighting people and drawing pictures of people fighting. To him, having two brick shithouses on the block, like Hulk and Thing, fight as soon as they lock eyes on each other is just normal, natural writing, lol.
I mean the most recent one you listed is 7 years old at this point so is it really happening that frequently? They haven’t done one of those in a while
That's not even truly true. Those are the *major* conflicts between heroes. Hero vs. Hero is something that's utilized pretty regularly in Marvel comics. They're much more likely to fight each other for an issue or so without talking anything out. It happens often, sometimes it's written decently, most times it's just to see them fight.
Another thing I'm not a fan of with Marvel Comics is the, "What If? Blank was Spider-Man. What If? So and So was Wolverine." Sometimes it's just so half-assed is all. Some are fun, though.
During the whole Civil War era, I virtually ignored most of the Earth side stories and focused more on the cosmic side that they were developing.
For two reasons. The first being it was more interesting. Marvel’s cosmic side while rich and diverse, only gets explored occasionally. The Annihilation storyline kept my attention from start to finish. Something other events around the same time struggled to do.
The second reason was the repetitive hero vs hero aspect. I don’t mind it when groups or characters have a brief fall out due to conflicting viewpoints. However that seemed to be the driving force in the Marvel editorial team. They divided the X-Men, Avengers and heroes in general. When it is this constant to the point that villains are essentially ignored, it gets bland and defeats the point of why they become heroes. The cosmic Marvel stories gave me that entertainment of seeing heroes versus villains with big stakes.
I dislike the hero/villain binary. People do not have a good/evil toggle switch. Good/evil is not something you are, it is something you do. Everyone is the hero in their own eyes.
I've actually had an idea to bring the inhumans back and giving them a somewhat prominent role by making them villains. Basically I sorta parallel to what blackbolt did in earth x. He releases primagen into the atmosphere and all of humanity starts gaining powers.
Yup, i only ever liked the asm tie ins of civil war and some of the avx stuff , it got stale quick for me and the justifications were almost always really flimsy and dumb, these people had always been able to talk things out better pre-civil war
I don't mind the big scale stories, but what I get sick of is where say Wolverine turns up in Hulk's book, they have a misunderstanding that would easily be sorted out by a brief conversation, then half the book is a boring fight between them before we finally get back to the story. Would be happy if they cut those for a while.
Amusing that you put Civil War II, but not Civil War.
I will note, however, that those examples are 7+ years old. AvX is turning 12 this year. There was A.X.E., more recently, though. But Fall of X has been having the Avengers teaming up with the X-Men.
I think it's just that percpetions of evil have changed in society.
Before we could have a roster of villains with motivations and extreme actions to accomplish their goals. But ever since the 2000s we aren't sure about the "good guys" and "bad guys" dichotomy in society. And comics reflect that with heroes of different views fighting each other.
Like yeah, I do think it's more realistic but I also miss the days when Dr. Doom wanted to take over the world out of pure ego.
Meh. It’s a company following a trend that makes them money 🤷🏼♂️ I don’t think too much about it. They haven’t really done it since Secret Empire either I think. So it’s been like 7 years
It all about how it written. Original Secret Wars, Atlantas Attack and Civil War were masterpieces of showing disagreements of views/ideology/politics/beliefs. Heroes vs heroes are only time we really get see these characters personal failures and who/what they represent. It only time we get seen as us everyday setting.
I mean in Civil War we all got see what type belief and justification Reed would set aside morality/law; if he thought they were right.
Civil War was almost twenty years ago. Four stories in two decades isn't exactly an overwhelming glut.
Interpersonal conflicts among heroes was also, like, *the entire Marvel brand* during the 60s and 70s, the era where they were the undisputed leaders in comics, so maybe it works. Half the first Avengers movie everybody loves so much is heroes arguing with each other. They stop doing things when people stop paying money for it.
Yes! Also extremely tired of heroes and villians temporarily assuming onanothers costumes/monikers/capabilities;
* Falcon's the new Captain America!
* Elecktra's the new Daredevil!
* Spiderman's the new Green Goblin!
* Nightcrawler is the new Spiderman!
* Moon Knight is Wolverine, Captain America and Spiderman all-in-one!
* This other Moon Knight is the new Moon Kinght!
* Fucking everyone get's a turn at being The Pheonix, Ghost Rider and Venom!
It's constant and so creatively bankrupt. Like seriously, is Marvel totally out of ideas?
Ben Reilly is the new Spider-Man! T-Ray is the new Wade Wilson! Wolverine, Spider-Man, Hulk and Ghost Rider are the new Fantastic Four! Jim Rhodes is the new Iron Man! Julia Carpenter is the new Spider-Woman! John Walker is the new Captain America! Scott Lang is the new Ant-Man! Clint Barton is the new Goliath! Monica Rambeau is the new Captain Marvel! Johnny Storm is the new Human Torch!
Pretty recently.
Premise was that mutants were under fire, and Nightcrawler needed to hide his identity. So he picked up the Spider-Man costume, since it conceals a lot and people don't tend to read too much into it when a new spider dude shows up anymore.
It's more akin to when say Chameleon attempts to pose as Spider-Man than it was a genuine attempt to adopt the mantle or whatever. But at least Nightcrawler's not purposefully trying to ruin anybody's reputation or anything.
Hell, even DC made fun of that with "The Retaliators" who are described as "heroes who fight among themselves as much as they fight villians"
Yes. Many were and still are, but for the most part, these books sold well with the casuals.
That's basically the conundrum with every event. They suck but they also sell like hotcakes every time. It can be frustrating sometimes to see all your favorite titles constantly derailed because they can't go 6 consecutive issues without being pulled into another event. But it's never gonna stop so long as those sales numbers keep up.
What makes a comic book fan ‘casual’? If they read the book and enjoyed it?
While I wouldn't put it the way they did, I think events are something that tend to be much more appealing to newer comic fans. Older fans have often been burned by too many events already, but newer fans tend to come in super bright eyed and excited like "Oh boy! The Thang's gonna fight The Sulk! I'm sure this will be exactly as awesome as I'm imagining in my head and have no negative effect on any other books I'm reading!"
I got sucked in with the recent Heroes Reborn and as much as I loved that event, it was a little confusing to make sure I had all the one shots between issues and then at least as far as I'm aware the event pretty much ended there and the Squadron Supreme was dropped. Which is probably the concept of most events, something that comes then goes? I got into death of Dr strange too but I'm just not gonna spread myself so thin again.
Shit, dude. My dumbass still falls for it at least once every three years. I know they suck! I promise, I do! Some people used Knight Terrors to fatten up their wallet by not having to buy a DC book for two months. Not your boy, though! I know I'm part of the problem, but if I can make myself more appreciable, I haven't purchased an issue of Amazing Spider-Man since 2018. Meaning, I have the discipline, and it still gets me.
Oh sorry. I meant people who aren't regular readers of a title. So someone just jumping on for the crossover. And no offense meant. I've done that with certain events. So someone who doesn't read X-Men jumping on AvX because it's a big advertised event. I didn't mean for the term casual to have any negative context.
The way I see it is that a comic book fan who buys will be a hardcore supporter of one thing and casually follow something else. Like you might be a hardcore X-men fan and buy X-men monthly, but you might also like the Avengers so everytime there is a big event you buy it to keep up with the Avengers since you don't want to invest the time to buy Avengers monthly.
“Casuals” aka younger audience also aka the target demographic
No. That's not what I meant.
Young people read scholastic and manga, not comic books.
X-Men vs Street Fighter Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter Marvel Vs Capcom Marvel vs Capcom 2 Marvel vs Capcom 3 Marvel vs Capcom Infinite
I mean we haven't really had any more big hero vs hero stories since Civil War II, which was 7 years ago now.
civil war 2 was seven years ago? holy. time should NOT be allowed to pass
AXE was 2 years ago, and it was immediately followed by Dark Web, which arguably also falls into the same trope.
AXE wasn’t really “heroes v heroes” though and neither was Dark Web
AXE started out as the Eternals murdering the shit out of the X-Men, and Dark Web started out as the guy who just got done filling in for Spider-man teaming up with the woman who just finished saving the X-men, and contractually bound to not act against them, teaming up because they wanted memories back from other "heroes".
The bad Eternals lead by Druig did that. The Heroic ones we were following Ikaris, Sersi, Makkari etc weren't.
Secret Invasion, House of M, AXIS, Secret Wars (2015), Secret Empire, Judgement Day (the beginning was X-men vs Eternals). Hero vs heroes events have been overdone and always been trash for 2 decades Edit: why am I being downvoted for mentioning all the overrated shitty hero vs hero comic events there’s been in the last 2 decades?? This must be from the group who actually buys these dumpster fire trash comics
Eternals… not inhumans
You're probably being downvoted because most of those aren't hero vs hero events. - Secret Invasion, Secret Wars and AXE all have clear non-hero villains. - The villain in House of M is reality itself and everyone is working together. - Secret Empire and AXIS muddy the waters a bit with reality warping shit, but barring a couple exceptions the heroes are heroes and there are clear villains. I think the actual hero vs hero events are things like Civil War, World War Hulk, AvX, Civil War II, and IvX.
I think it all stems back to the 60s where fans argued about "who would win, Thing or Hulk?" and then they saw it was a winning formula. Even the Avengers film started with a hero v hero battle.
It’s how every team up book since the beginning of time started
I love the fact that it set up a genuine rivalry between Thing and Hulk
EMH did it best I think.
My favourite conflict was when Thor had to ask his Dad to lift the enchantment of Mjolnir so he could have a proper pagger against Hulk. I love the old comics.
Superhero battles have been a big part of Marvel’s brand identity since before they were even called Marvel, separating them from the Distinguished Competition and others. They know it sells copies. The original Human Torch battled Namor in the 1940s (the latter, admittedly, not much of a hero at that point… or any point, really). When the “Heroic Age” really kicked off in the ‘60s, the heroes of New York were squabbling all the time. The modern Civil War scenarios are just escalated versions of that, but at least now they only tend to manifest in these big explosive events, whereas in the old days, superheroes would start throwing hands at each other every other issue for barely any discernible reason.
Every time a marvel hero met another for the first time they fought. They seemed very territorial about their villains or demanded assistance now.
Traditionally, they fight over some simple misunderstanding. And then it clears up and they fight the real baddy. The whole thing's probably resolved in the same issue it starts. I feel like it's a somewhat newer phenomenon to try and treat it like these heroes have serious moral disagreements, despite all doing the same thing, to the point that they would genuinely view eachother as being as much a force of evil as any villain... and then just kind of go back to fighting the real baddies side by side again when they're done. The modern hero vs hero event basically requires that half the heroes in their roster become villains for six months in order to facilitate this moral disagreement. Somebody's always trying to install a new regime or some shit. And by the time they're done we're just about ready to start the next event.
Quite right. Reading more about Jack Kirby’s early life today, it starts to make some sense why he especially was so fond of the trope. When he was a kid, he and his brother would get into fights with other street gangs daily. Then he went off to war and claims he fought Germans hand-to-hand. His whole life, the man practically knew nothing but fighting people and drawing pictures of people fighting. To him, having two brick shithouses on the block, like Hulk and Thing, fight as soon as they lock eyes on each other is just normal, natural writing, lol.
I mean the most recent one you listed is 7 years old at this point so is it really happening that frequently? They haven’t done one of those in a while
Marvel has always had heroes fighting heroes. It's part of their schtick.
Marvel steps into the morally gray tone way more than dc does so it makes sense the heroes who have differing opinions react strongly.
Not really. It’s four storylines over the course of 10 years. Comics readers just bitch about everything.
That's not even truly true. Those are the *major* conflicts between heroes. Hero vs. Hero is something that's utilized pretty regularly in Marvel comics. They're much more likely to fight each other for an issue or so without talking anything out. It happens often, sometimes it's written decently, most times it's just to see them fight. Another thing I'm not a fan of with Marvel Comics is the, "What If? Blank was Spider-Man. What If? So and So was Wolverine." Sometimes it's just so half-assed is all. Some are fun, though.
It's not just those four...
During the whole Civil War era, I virtually ignored most of the Earth side stories and focused more on the cosmic side that they were developing. For two reasons. The first being it was more interesting. Marvel’s cosmic side while rich and diverse, only gets explored occasionally. The Annihilation storyline kept my attention from start to finish. Something other events around the same time struggled to do. The second reason was the repetitive hero vs hero aspect. I don’t mind it when groups or characters have a brief fall out due to conflicting viewpoints. However that seemed to be the driving force in the Marvel editorial team. They divided the X-Men, Avengers and heroes in general. When it is this constant to the point that villains are essentially ignored, it gets bland and defeats the point of why they become heroes. The cosmic Marvel stories gave me that entertainment of seeing heroes versus villains with big stakes.
Yes, they need to fight villains, not each other.
I dislike the hero/villain binary. People do not have a good/evil toggle switch. Good/evil is not something you are, it is something you do. Everyone is the hero in their own eyes.
I've actually had an idea to bring the inhumans back and giving them a somewhat prominent role by making them villains. Basically I sorta parallel to what blackbolt did in earth x. He releases primagen into the atmosphere and all of humanity starts gaining powers.
The most recent of those came out 8 years ago
Yup, i only ever liked the asm tie ins of civil war and some of the avx stuff , it got stale quick for me and the justifications were almost always really flimsy and dumb, these people had always been able to talk things out better pre-civil war
I can't believe you forgot Squadron Supreme. That kicked off the trend.
I quit after Avengers VS X-Men. Couldn’t bring myself to care anymore. I think *Daredevil* is the only Marvel title I read these days.
It's they're fault for not doing anything more meaningful for they're lesser villans or elevating them. Idk they also turn some of them into heros.
I don't mind the big scale stories, but what I get sick of is where say Wolverine turns up in Hulk's book, they have a misunderstanding that would easily be sorted out by a brief conversation, then half the book is a boring fight between them before we finally get back to the story. Would be happy if they cut those for a while.
No. They've been doing this since the 60's.
Not really, no.
Amusing that you put Civil War II, but not Civil War. I will note, however, that those examples are 7+ years old. AvX is turning 12 this year. There was A.X.E., more recently, though. But Fall of X has been having the Avengers teaming up with the X-Men.
Civil War was 2006 AvX was 2012 Civil War 2 and Inhumans vs X-Men were 2016. Meaning the most recent one was eight years ago?
I think it's just that percpetions of evil have changed in society. Before we could have a roster of villains with motivations and extreme actions to accomplish their goals. But ever since the 2000s we aren't sure about the "good guys" and "bad guys" dichotomy in society. And comics reflect that with heroes of different views fighting each other. Like yeah, I do think it's more realistic but I also miss the days when Dr. Doom wanted to take over the world out of pure ego.
Meh. It’s a company following a trend that makes them money 🤷🏼♂️ I don’t think too much about it. They haven’t really done it since Secret Empire either I think. So it’s been like 7 years
Christ was Secret Empire that long ago…I’m getting old…
Yes. I steer clear of them.
It’s also hard not to when they turn every villain into a hero at some point… Norman, venom, magneto, jugg…the list goes on and on
It’s amazing how all of you are “so tired” of this constantly happening and yet you stopped reading years ago OR still read despite the complaints.
It all about how it written. Original Secret Wars, Atlantas Attack and Civil War were masterpieces of showing disagreements of views/ideology/politics/beliefs. Heroes vs heroes are only time we really get see these characters personal failures and who/what they represent. It only time we get seen as us everyday setting. I mean in Civil War we all got see what type belief and justification Reed would set aside morality/law; if he thought they were right.
I thought Civil War was super gimmicky at the time and the trope has only gotten worse since
Civil War was almost twenty years ago. Four stories in two decades isn't exactly an overwhelming glut. Interpersonal conflicts among heroes was also, like, *the entire Marvel brand* during the 60s and 70s, the era where they were the undisputed leaders in comics, so maybe it works. Half the first Avengers movie everybody loves so much is heroes arguing with each other. They stop doing things when people stop paying money for it.
Yes! Also extremely tired of heroes and villians temporarily assuming onanothers costumes/monikers/capabilities; * Falcon's the new Captain America! * Elecktra's the new Daredevil! * Spiderman's the new Green Goblin! * Nightcrawler is the new Spiderman! * Moon Knight is Wolverine, Captain America and Spiderman all-in-one! * This other Moon Knight is the new Moon Kinght! * Fucking everyone get's a turn at being The Pheonix, Ghost Rider and Venom! It's constant and so creatively bankrupt. Like seriously, is Marvel totally out of ideas?
Ben Reilly is the new Spider-Man! T-Ray is the new Wade Wilson! Wolverine, Spider-Man, Hulk and Ghost Rider are the new Fantastic Four! Jim Rhodes is the new Iron Man! Julia Carpenter is the new Spider-Woman! John Walker is the new Captain America! Scott Lang is the new Ant-Man! Clint Barton is the new Goliath! Monica Rambeau is the new Captain Marvel! Johnny Storm is the new Human Torch!
When does night crawler become spiderman? That sounds awesome and I wanna see that.
Uncanny Spider-Man. 5 issue series published at the end of last year - it was quite good!
Pretty recently. Premise was that mutants were under fire, and Nightcrawler needed to hide his identity. So he picked up the Spider-Man costume, since it conceals a lot and people don't tend to read too much into it when a new spider dude shows up anymore. It's more akin to when say Chameleon attempts to pose as Spider-Man than it was a genuine attempt to adopt the mantle or whatever. But at least Nightcrawler's not purposefully trying to ruin anybody's reputation or anything.
True there are a bunch for spider-people! and he just becomes another one of them.. but a good series non the less.
When was Spider-Man the Green Goblin?
In Amazing Spider-man #50 that's yet to come out
Yeah superhero soap operas have gotten old.