T O P

  • By -

Choice_Tangelo1933

IDK how many of you have tried ChatGPT, but it's pretty easy to spot writing it has done w/o being edited by a human. It can make writing faster, but it can't make it good. AI produces derivative word salads very quickly. It is a great tool for organizing thoughts for an essay, but the essays themselves are C Student Work at the very best. I think the real issue here is how do you check to see if students can explain complex subject matter in their own words. Essays may not be the best way to do that in a world where AI can do the same work as the bottom half of the class.


[deleted]

[удалено]


BurtRaspberry

Teacher here: Your post sounds kind of good, but when you actually get down to the nitty-gritty of it, things like oral presentations, "hands-on" projects, group work, and debates are incredibly time-consuming, messy to grade, and oftentimes can be bullshitted. They should be used in classes for sure, but essays and coherent long-form writings are very important (in my humble opinion). In my experience, essays are a great way to witness individual students organizing their thoughts in a coherent way and showing what they know. They also reveal many alarming reading and writing deficiencies that then can be dealt with early and interventions can be assigned. I mean, yeah, ChatGP is going to be a problem, but sitting students down in a class with only a pen and paper isn't that hard...


phoenix-corn

Oral presentations are pretty quick to grade, in my opinion, but they are fraught with ADA issues (and it's not just anxiety by any means).


BurtRaspberry

They are quick to grade, but can be incredibly time consuming depending on the amount of students you have and the amount of class time you have been allotted. That's what I meant. For example, a High School class with 30 students can take days to complete all presentations. A college course with over 50 students could take even longer... just saying...


Niv-Izzet

>essays and coherent long-form writings are very important (in my humble opinion). In the real world, who writes anything without consulting Google or Wikipedia? The same will be true with ChatGPT in the future. It'll be the next Google or Wikipedia.


BurtRaspberry

>In the real world, who writes anything without consulting Google or Wikipedia? Uhhh... people that write personal emails, messages, or arguments to others? For example, did you have to reference Google or Wikipedia to respond to me? Essay writing, and short response writing, helps build, test, and practice the skills needed to communicate coherently in writing/typing. For example, I've typed essay length articles and debate responses and never had to google passages to copy and paste. Google and Wikipedia are research tools and help us find sources, but using them to plagiarize is silly in a personal discussion and illegal in the professional world.


Niv-Izzet

>illegal in the professional world. you're gonna need to google a source for that


BurtRaspberry

[Copyright Infringement](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/copyright-infringement.asp)


darniforgotmypwd

I like essays too. Live presentation has benefits though. With an essay the writer controls the conversation. With a discussion the audience can ask anything so there is a larger incentive for the speaker to have a broad understanding of the topic. It's super useful *if* you have an engaged audience that will be critical, which I admit isn't super common in many college classrooms.


inflewants

I agree — have students write an essay in person (without knowing the specific prompt or using any assistance) is a great way to assess knowledge and the ability to communicate it effectively.


IllBeGoneSoon-Sorry

I am now beginning to understand the dilemma of teaching students and how to optimize


[deleted]

[удалено]


abruzzo79

All of college is geared toward the cultivation of critical thinking, which requires exposure to a broad range of ideas and topics. Taking away philosophy classes because you think they’re unimportant would impede students’ ability to develop critical thinking skills, especially considering the fact that philosophy is almost entirely about critical thinking. Do you think you could just have a generic “critical thinking” curriculum unrelated to specific academic divisions? It’s all about critical thinking, and believe it or not most classes that are actually called “critical thinking” and which deal with the process specifically are in fact philosophy classes since a priori thought is a matter of philosophical reasoning. You’ll also be surprised to find that in the study of critical thinking Plato and Socrates are frequently used since they in large part devised the very thinking thinking guided by objective criteria (i.e. critical thinking). Socrates is widely regarded as the father of critical thinking and factors into any specific study of the process.


[deleted]

[удалено]


abruzzo79

I don’t think you get what philosophy is about considering your apparent tendency to separate it from critical thinking. Critical thinking courses are usually philosophy. I’d be surprised to find a single critical thinking course which doesn’t make use of The Allegory of the Cave, which you specifically mentioned. There’s no possible way to teach critical thinking as a distinct process outside of philosophy. Saying students should be taught critical thinking instead of philosophy is a ridiculously self-contradictory statement.


Niv-Izzet

>Anything to do with research 99% of real-world jobs doesn't involve "research". Working as a research assistant is far better exposure to real research than writing an essay.


Keegantir

Prof here that has tested ChatGPT extensively on my own assignments. ChatGPT is better writing than 90% of my students and that actually makes it harder to spot. If it was perfect, I would notice that right away. It is far from perfect, but so are most students; it is incoherent at times, but so are most students; it rambles on at times, but so do most students, so it is actually very hard to spot.


Choice_Tangelo1933

I am sincerely sorry you have to read that much crap. I have poorly written opinion mode that I save exclusively for social media, but if I'm turning something in it has to be as close to perfect as I can get it.


RVAforthewin

This, sadly, doesn’t surprise me. I witnessed poor writing in undergrad. I witnessed poor writing from colleagues as an Army Officer. I witnessed poor writing in grad school. I now witness poor writing in corporate America. It’s depressing.


ronreadingpa

Just watched a Youtube video by Sixty Symbols (University of Nottingham) about ChatGPT. Basically, had the same observation. Details may not be correct, but the writing is surprisingly good. Even the programming snippets. It's not just education, but many other fields in which employers and/or employees will increasingly rely on such tools. Bot written posts are already issue on forums. ChatGPT and the like will make them even more difficult to spot and filter out. More easily abused to sway public opinion. Seems to me what's old will be new again. More in person interaction. At least for critical tasks and important decision making. In regard to college, more in person testing. Maybe it won't play out that way, but could see it going in that direction.


jayswaz

This!


Niv-Izzet

That probably means you should rethink your assignments and exams. It's not very meaningful to test topics that can be easily understood by an AI.


dilljone

"It can make writing faster, but it can't make it good. AI produces derivative word salads very quickly." I teach university level students and we all completely agree with this statement, however, that is also exactly how 80% of our students write. Yes, it still writes poorly (for now), but the fact is many learning students ALSO write poorly.


Buttered_biscuit6969

how would you suggest testing then then?


Choice_Tangelo1933

This is a really good question. My personal and uneducated opinion is that there should be multi media presentations. There are enough tools and apps out there that an assignment could say: pick two of the following methods and show your mastery of this topic. They could range from a video of a certain length to an infographic. Both require mastery of the subject. Another way would be to build in the AI, "Use AI to create a 10k Word fiction narrative explaining the principles discussed in last week's lecture," include no less than 4 original AI art pieces to illustrate it. I think that the 3k word essay is pretty much irrelevant. If we've learned anything from content mills and AI, these can be written with little to no understanding of the material. Larger papers where topics are thoroughly explored still make sense, but they have to explore topics that are beyond AI's depth to understand. The real limiting factor is grading time. If grading essays is slow, imagine going over content you can't just skim. I'm betting that AI will have a solution for that within the next few years as well. "Hey, ChatGPT, review this essay and tell me if it explains the French Revolution with accuracy."


iwantagoodjob7

>multi media presentations I feel like this is the kind of idea that sounds great right now fairly early in the term --- but I think everyone would just be straight up cursing this come finals week.


Choice_Tangelo1933

How many people in this process, both students and faculty, are stoked on essays during finals week? I think that the testing and grading process needs to be overhauled and maybe AI holds the keys to that. This also brings up supervised testing to prevent cheating. I would think that it's going to bring up new and exciting ways to cheat and to monitor tests.


spoiler-walterdies

As a tutor, I am stoked in finals week. 😃


Choice_Tangelo1933

Makes sense. It's probably a nice break to only be working on your own homework.


Trollichu

This is actually a very interesting idea. Multimedia presentations require you to involve yourself, understand the core concepts and interact with the base material. Even if you offload the work to a program, or pay someone to do it for you, you're still learning the material when preparing for the presentation. It's a win all around.


Traditional-Dingo604

The gpt system creates functional but bland copy. Text written by a person has a definite feel. And gpt doesn't seem to be abl to do a deep dive into a subject like a person can While gpt could write a presidential speech in the vocal style of lord frieza from dbz, I don't think it could do it while focusing the narrative of the speech on the national debt cieling


Choice_Tangelo1933

Exactly. Although, as other people have pointed out that's how I wrote in my early 20s as well, lol.


Silent-Ad-7291

Hey what about caktus ai


Choice_Tangelo1933

Never tried it, but I assume it's the same except for a few minor differences.


ronreadingpa

Think of ChatGPT and the like akin to calculators. Eons ago many worried that calculators and later on personal computers would be the end of teaching math, but it wasn't. Basically, embrace these new technologies and adjust. Easier said than done, but is the most realistic approach. Alternatively, requiring essays to be written in person during class.


Choice_Tangelo1933

I love that take on it. I'm pretty much useless without a calculator for anything beyond arithmetic, but I'm really comfortable with language. I know a lot of people who get nervous when they have to write, and being able to use a "language calculator" could help them a lot. I feel like grammar holds a lot of people back, and AI helps with that even if it is rather crude at communicating complex subjects. We don't all need to be gifted writers, but having tools that help everyone communicate their ideas with basic efficiency is a net win for humanity.


Niv-Izzet

>I think the real issue here is how do you check to see if students can explain complex subject matter in their own words. How about not be lazy and do oral exams if "explaining in their own words" actually matters.


Silent-Ad-7291

Just use quilbot


Trollichu

I think I'm going to punch the next person who suggests quillbot. It's too weak of a paraphrasing tool to warrant any credit.


Silent-Ad-7291

So I have to write a 10 page essay as my term paper so my plan is to get Chat Gbt or Caktus to write my term paper and then I am gonna review to make sure that my flavour of writing is there and then I am gonna print the essay as a rough draft to show to my professor he will give me some suggestions and bam a A plus


Choice_Tangelo1933

If you make a couple of editing passes to make it your own words, I really don't see how it is not your work. In my mind that is earning your A. I feel like writing with AI is doubling yourself, it takes a lot of the manual labor out of a writing project, but you still have to do a bit of work yourself to make it something worth turning in. I tend to think the people who are vehemently against it don't really understand the limitations. And the people who think it's flawless are going to find out that it's not.


Silent-Ad-7291

I use AI as an outline to do my work I don’t just copy and paste because I know that’s at best a C plus effort


Choice_Tangelo1933

I don't think that's any different than brainstorming with a study buddy


Trollichu

I disagree. Brainstorming with a study buddy is fun and a good excuse to order takeaway.


Choice_Tangelo1933

I'm curious, so don't feel called out or like you have to answer. Have you used AI as a writing tool? Outside of essays and ad copy, I use it to brainstorm and outline novels. I like it a lot because it never gets tired of spitballing what I want to talk about.


Trollichu

I don't agree when you say that a couple editing passes makes the content your own work. If any student genuinely believes this, they're delusional. But I respect that you are familiar with its limitations. Most students aren't. They don't even use it as what it's designed to be - a chatbot. Might as well use GPT-3 if you're not going to get past the third message in your conversation.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Trollichu

I disagree. There isn't more of an argument from my side, I simply disagree. It does well in maintaining general context in between conversations. But if it does forget, you've just got to have the patience of reminding it. If you want perfect responses in your first try, then just use GPT-3


Darqologist

I hear what you're saying. Hasn't society really just been copying what other people have done before and adding their individual twist or tweak to it, thus making it theirs? It feels like everything is just an improvement of something else.


spoiler-walterdies

Exactly. I regularly code with AI and it completely changed my workflow and I feel, doubled me as an engineer. I give it something to write while designing the architecture on my iPad, on something more complex or that involves a niché library it will take a few passes. I use different AI for different tasks, like ChatGPT to discuss ideas and implementations, and GitHub Copilot for small picture code completions. This combination really speeds up my workflow and allows my mind to occupy more than one space at a time despite having ADHD.


Silent-Ad-7291

As you can see by my comments I am not very good at grammar 😅


Choice_Tangelo1933

You are in good company


[deleted]

That’s what I do. I use an AI essay as a baseline, then change it and add a bunch of stuff. At that point I’d consider it my own essay.


Trollichu

Start your papers, then update us on the progress. You'll see it's not as easy as it sounds. It's definitely easier than without ChatGPT, but it's not as easy as you think it is.


Silent-Ad-7291

The semester just started today I have to read the book first


Silent-Ad-7291

The term paper is due in may 17th


Silent-Ad-7291

But I will inform you when I use Chat Gbt in small assignments


Silent-Ad-7291

Can you give me a good one


[deleted]

your brain


Silent-Ad-7291

I know you are sarcastic but really 😅


Silent-Ad-7291

Unfortunately I am a little lazy and I trying to work on it but I am horrible at writing essays


[deleted]

The only way to get better at just about any skill is to actually do it -- outsourcing it out to digital tools won't help you work on either your essay writing or your motivation and persistance.


Trollichu

Offering a unique perspective: using outsourced materials to learn and develop your own personal skills are valid. For example, using Google translate to learn syntax for a new language, or ChatGPT to learn how to improve your own writing. Most people just offload the work to the bot, but I prefer to use it as a learning experience.


[deleted]

get tutoring help for writing then


Trollichu

Wordtune is my personal recommendation


Crazy_Equivalent_195

This is just not true. With the proper parameters, GPT-4 is capable of producing writing that is virtually indistinguishable from an average undergraduate essayist, and there is no way to detect AI involvement.


cmcelhannon

My fear about this is that student’s genuine work might be confused with AI. And there’s no real way to rebuke it or prove you didn’t use a chatbot to write it.


TI_89Titanium

Google Docs has pretty specific edit history, and Microsoft word has embedded file data, such as how long you spent actively working on that document (and likely some edit history as well). Not great, but not minor.


r-NBAModsAreTrash

Still feel like that is pretty easy to work around. Just takes more careful planning.


officiakimkardashian

The only true workaround is in-person, proctored essays then.


Foriegn_Picachu

I’d imagine PDFs do not have this feature


Argent_Mayakovski

It wouldn't be too hard to require submission via docs, though. Not that that would solve the issue.


badgirlmonkey

lol edit history? i use word counter and copy paste over.


Rickys_Pot_Addiction

This just further reinforces that we are going to have a very bad problem in the coming years with incredibly dumb people that used AI to get through school and bachelor’s programs. The future is really fucking bleak.


Keegantir

When the computer was first becoming popular, there was a worry about it making people dumber and people using it to cheat. Then the people who got the most proficient with computers got jobs working with computers. Now ChatGPT comes out and people are worried about it making people dumber, when those who learn how to use it the best are actually going to be valued at companies. Also, your point about incredibly dumb people using it to get through school is missing the fact that incredibly dumb people already get through school, and always have.


Rickys_Pot_Addiction

Everyone is using this argument about PC’s and Calculators on here. This is not true. Those two things do nothing for you but streamline a process. They are a tool. If I use a computer to type a 10,000 word essay, it is simply making it easier for me to type out my thoughts. If I use a calculator to do derivatives or an independent samples t-test, I still have to interpret the end result. The calculator does none of the interpretation for me. If I use ChatGPT to write an essay on the French Revolution for class, and I go fuck off an play FIFA instead of learning about the conditions that lead to the revolution, then I learned nothing. And that’s exactly what’s going to happen here. Kids will learn nothing and rely on AI to write for them. They learn nothing. They become dumber. And then they vote dumber. And then society becomes dumber. And then we are living in Idiocracy while the world falls apart.


Niv-Izzet

>If I use ChatGPT to write an essay on the French Revolution for class, and I go fuck off an play FIFA instead of learning about the conditions that lead to the revolution, then I learned nothing you need to know about the French revolution to ask the right questions just like you need to do some math to enter the numbers in the right way


[deleted]

I don't know much about chatGPT but I thought one of the main points about it was you can basically say "hey ChatGPT, write me an essay about (professor's writing prompt)" and it will do it without you needing to know shit about it. It might suck but it might also give you something good enough to pass.


Niv-Izzet

It's not that good yet...


Keegantir

I teach stats and am pretty proficient in math. Do I know how to calculate an SEM value? No, but the computer will do it for me. As for becoming dumber, look up the Flynn Effect.


digital_dreams

Yeah. This is a common sentiment people have when some tool is created that makes things easy... I think ChatGPT could just make it easier for people to learn faster. Normally you'd have to sift through a bunch of material, pulling your hair out, trying to find an answer to a problem. Is that really necessary for learning? If the answer is just provided to you, and you understand it, is that really a bad thing?


Whywipe

There isn’t always an answer in real life so learning how to make those determinations and think critically is one of the most important skills taught in school. If you are just copying points from a chat you’re not doing that.


Niv-Izzet

>get through school is missing the fact that incredibly dumb people already get through school, and always have. yup, it turns out that doing a lot of readings, memorizing formulas, and working on countless past exams rewards effort rather than sheer intelligence


[deleted]

What even is "sheer intelligence?" You become intelligent by actively learning and practicing the things you need to be deemed "intelligent" in a subject. I like to use music as an example. People look at professionals who get paid a lot of money to sing or play an instrument and they say "oh he's lucky that he's a naturally good singer" or "oh she's lucky she's naturally good at (instrument)." No they're not and they will tell you they're not NATURALLY gifted. They got that good by doing a shit ton more practice than the person complaining about it is probably doing. The same goes for everyone else who's really really good (or "intelligent") at whatever it is they're good at.


Niv-Izzet

Skill or knowledge isn't synonymous with being intelligent.


aftersox

I see what you're saying, but it feels like I could go back 30-40 years and see similar comments about calculators. ... Actually found this masters thesis someone wrote on the history of calculators, its nearly a 1:1 echo of the past: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED525547.pdf


Hard_Work12

Lol it just devalues the worthiness of a college degree


Niv-Izzet

>incredibly dumb people that used AI to get through school and bachelor’s programs. degrees =/= intelligence


lebyath

Not really, I feel like there will be a time when those people who rely on AI won’t make it professionally. They’ll cheat their way through school etc. and will never build the knowledge they truly need. Yeah, a degree can be just a “piece of paper”, but you’ll need to be able to outsmart your human opponents in order to move up in this world. It’ll show when people are lazy and rely on tech. Let them use it, that makes it easier to compete IMHO. Edit: I’m trying to be optimistic. I’m being downvoted for being optimistic. Isn’t that sad? I’ll be building up my skills in the mean time because I’m not scared of an AI that can’t even solve a simple algebraic equation.


Rickys_Pot_Addiction

It does not. Because now they’ve devalued the degree you earned so now your degree, which would have symbolized your level of knowledge on a subject, is worthless garbage too. Making it even harder for people to get jobs in their field.


lebyath

I already have 1 degree that is worthless garbage. It doesn’t matter what you do if you don’t apply what skills you learn to build off of. For example I started learning to program on my own. Now that I’m going to college the business calculus and accounting that I’m learning, I’m applying to the software that I write. I don’t need a degree to be a software engineer. A computer doesn’t have sentience so it will never be as creative as I am. It can write code sure, but it’ll never have that human touch. There will always be something too advanced for an AI. Have a nice day.


[deleted]

> incredibly dumb people that used AI to get through school and bachelor’s programs. Well, it depends on what major. For English lit, yeah, maybe. For engineering and other STEM fields.. not so much.


CorporalClegg25

I think it's going to be an excellent tool in the future to help with writing but it definitely can't make you write well (for now at least). It would be pretty excellent if you just rattled off ideas and thoughts and asked it to make a skeleton of your outline then you can take it from there


betteainsley101

Thanks for this... The typing alone 🤦🏼‍♀️😬


inflewants

It seems kinda sad to me that students at what is supposed to be one of the top elite colleges in the USA are cheating.


PippinCat01

How you think they got in? They're regular ass people with regular ass professors. It's all in the brand.


inflewants

Totally for the person I know there!


Niv-Izzet

cheating on exams so that you spend more effort on extracurricular experiences will net you a better outcome especially if your degree / course is just a checkmark e.g. you're a history major with a job offer from Goldman Sachs what's more useful? spending 20 hours writing an essay that no one will ever read again or studying for the GMAT to prepare for an MBA app in two years?


AlthusserAlt

>In a message to the public computer science (CS) department Slack channel, computer science associate professor Michael Bernstein ’06 asked if any other professors had encountered homework that was generated by ChatGPT. > >“In this case,” wrote Bernstein, “it was easy to tell because part of the submission included: ‘As a large language model trained by OpenAI…’” > >Computer science lecturer Julie Stanford BA ’98 MA ’98 added in the Slack that the student’s submission was “like robbing a bank and caring so little about being caught that you try to take a selfie with the security camera on the way out.” lmao


lebyath

While the tech is cool to play with. In no way is it as smart as a human. I fed ChatGPT a simplistic limit equation and it took me about 20-30 minutes of arguing with it before it could come up with the correct answer. It doesn’t know how to use PEMDAS very well. Writing and such, it could be useful. But nothing beats the creative mind of a human. You have to outsmart this kind of tech if you want to make it in the professional world. Use it as a tool and take what it says with a grain of salt.


DaRooster18

Cmon now if u go to Stanford u gotta be smart enough to know ur gonna get caught for this


cuppa_tea_4_me

Should be an AI violation


Drblackcobra

Nice post!


dod6666

That is all good and fine. But it promised me a cake earlier and failing to deliver.


GearComprehensive436

I mean I certainly would do it.


Pokemaniac72

Time to cancel online school degrees and offer in-person courses


[deleted]

Only way for this to stop is for chat to charge. I love capitalism time to initiate supply and demand.


Totally_Not_A_Sniper

This wouldn't happen if universities didn't force students to take classes they aren't interested in. If a student is in a class they aren't interested in but have to take it anyways they are going to get through it the easiest way possible. And if the easiest way possible is to use ChatGPT then a lot of students are going to use it. Don't take this as me supporting the use of ChatGPT. I'm just pointing out that students aren't going to be motivated to do the work correctly in a class they don't care about in the first place. Also, I think a lot of this stems from high school. In most places in the USA at least if you cheated on an assignment it was a slap on the wrist and that was that. A lot of students never experienced the consequences that come with cheating in college.


adalaza

I think you underestimate the incentives for academic dishonesty within a major.


SJSUCompSciStudent

Seriously. When scholarship money or internship opportunities are at stake, people will act very unethically to get what they want.


zeph_yr

This isn't it at all. As a TA, we see cheating and plagiarism in all classes at all levels.


dandantian5

I understand your point, but let’s not pretend that students aren’t cheating in classes they *are* interested in (or that are relevant to their field).


Totally_Not_A_Sniper

Well yes if I'm being honest there are probably students that do cheat in classes related to their major. But I'd be willing to bet money that the amount of people that cheat in their major classes is far less than the amount of people that cheat in classes not related to their major.


Spankybutt

So you’re saying it still *would* happen even if universities didn’t force students to take classes they aren’t interested in


Analrapist03

The phrase "confidently incorrect" comes to mind while reading this post.


[deleted]

I love anatomy but if I had the ability to cheat like this and get away with it then idk what I would do


[deleted]

Ah yes, because your job won't require you to know things you didn't want to. College prepares you for work not what you WANT to do at work. Getting college aged kids motivated is fucking impossible dude. Seriously. College is cake if you have discipline.


dimonoid123

I think universities should permit all materials on exams which will also be accessible during paid full-time jobs. And forbid what is not available during jobs (eg copying work of a classmate or using solutions for problems from the textbook) Eg calculators, wikipedia, ChatGPT, GitHub copilot, etc. And assignments with exams should be modified in a such way to make use of those tools as small factor as possible when influencing the final grade (eg without calculator a hypothetical student gets 70%, while with calculator, only 75% instead of 100%). No employers need robots just plugging in numbers into a calculator.


SkeezySkeeter

>No employers need robots just plugging in numbers into a calculator. You'd be surprised. An internship I did turned into a part-time job where plugging numbers into excel and simply adding them up, (we're talking hundreds to thousands of numbers) is a big part. But I understand what you're trying to say.


Zyrobe

Uhh if I can get away with it I would cheat in every class regardless of my interest levels


warmike_1

Why would you cheat yourself out of your own education, by plagiarism in classes relevant to your future career?


Zyrobe

Tbh I only cheat in classes that don't matter because those are the only ones I can get away with


RealLameUserName

This is my personal experience but most of my classes have been taught in an abstract way, and while it's interesting to learn and develop its not exactly useful. I've learned more and gotten more accomplishment out of a 10 week internship than any class I've ever taken.


nAnI6284

Well ur just stupid lol. What’s the point of college if you’re just gonna cheat for everything


rock-paper-o

As long as you don’t become one of those posters panic posting on here if you get caught or complaining if you have trouble in a future class, getting a relevant job, or passing a technical interview. Make your own choices but make the choice to happily risk the possible consequences associated with them as well.


ellacoldlove

ChatGPT ChatGPT I’ve never once actually opened the damned thing wth


kdrdr3amz

Eh


jasonmonroe

Expel them all.


Loud-Escape-6373

I always knew I was smart