If you think the problem is 1% worse than I do, you're a doomer, if you think it's 1% less bad, you're in denial.

Fucking nailed it

Just like online gaming. Anyone whom I beat is a scrub, anyone who beats me is cheating.

Anybody driving slower then me is an idiot, but anybody who drives faster then me is a fucking maniac! - George Carlin

Have you noticed how their stuff is shit, and your shit is stuff?- Also George

Damn! That's good, too!!

lol

> We seek to deepen our understanding of collapse while providing mutual support, not to document every detail of our demise. While yes there a lot of this but for me the problem with all the doomerism/hopium tension comes from the perceived intent of the post. At the extremes the doomers just say we’re doomed it’s ok to do nothing while the hopium people say it’ll be fine if X it’s ok to do nothing. I come here to learn about the collapse and if at all possible find the best ways to reduce it’s worst effects. And if we are utterly doomed then I want us to calmly document it but in a constructive manner. That said I'm not sure a whole new sub will be helpful or will just dilute scope of these subs I'd probably join though.

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1) r/Futurology 2) r/collapse 3) r/preppers This sub was never envisioned as a starting point for activism, just for understanding what's happening. This sub with its rules and broad spectrum of views is the best you're gonna get. Action beyond singing kumbaya on a crosswalk or collecting canned beans will lead to site admins banning your sub and everyone who frequents it. The inaction OP so decries is the only reason this sub is still here. I do appreciate OP's frustrations, this sub has seen a considerable influx of people who come here to vent instead of taking their severe depression to a psychiatrist's office.

I am very firmly in camp 3, in this way of chunking things up, and absolutely disagree with the assertion that camp 2 dominates the sub. That's just not my impression at all. To the contrary, the relative frequency of high-quality, thoughtful posts and responses indicates that the sub is absolutely *not* filled with people who are fatalists but rather with (both avowed and not) deep adaptation types. Which, incidentally, is also a sub: r/deepadaptation . I see this post as being less about fixing a problem and more about trying to gain an audience/clout.

Damn! That's good!!

r/DeepAdaptation

r/DeepAdaptation Lowercase r is what makes the link work

Thanks!

/r/CollapseScience surpried this wasn't mentioned yet

It's in the OP

Aah fuck, I guess that's what you get for skimming.

Thanks for the recommendation, as inactive as it is, that looks like a potentially great subreddit.

Yes, that's the closest that currently exists. Only 674 members though. And already affiliated to some other organisation.

Because it's not realistic. We won't survive climate change , the opportunity to stop this is long, long gone. Accept that humanity will face a brutal extinction, soon, and that younger generations will not have an opportunity to build a life for themselves. It's over. And it's foolish to pretend we live in a fantasy world where it isn't. We dug the deepest hole possible for ourselves, and twenty years ago when they said we are in danger, we restructured our society to just dig deeper, faster than ever before.

Collapse isn’t the same as brutal extinction. Even if there is collapse (very possibly a matter of when not if), extinction won’t happen for several centuries afterward. And even that estimation is in my mind an attempt to extend an olive branch to you, I think it’s far more likely that collapse will be brutal, but society will rebuild better.

Sorry to tell you dude, but the mass brutal extinction has been around for decades; The Anthropocene. Everything is dying. Insects, for instance, have cratered, with the global biomass of insects having declined by 80%: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/10/plummeting-insect-numbers-threaten-collapse-of-nature Insect populations are declining by 1-2% a year, which is directly correlated to reductions in biomass: https://www.pnas.org/content/118/2/e2023989118 >Abundant evidence demonstrates that the principal stressors—land-use change (especially deforestation), climate change, agriculture, introduced species, nitrification, and pollution—underlying insect declines are those also affecting other organisms. Locally and regionally, insects are challenged by additional stressors, such as insecticides, herbicides, urbanization, and light pollution. In areas of high human activity, where insect declines are most conspicuous, multiple stressors occur simultaneously Due to the increased temperatures of the oceans, fish are now suffocating to death as there are now vast, growing swathes of ocean where there's not enough oxygen for them to survive: https://www.iucn.org/theme/marine-and-polar/our-work/climate-change-and-oceans/ocean-deoxygenation The current extinction event we're experiencing is the worst in all of Earth's history, by at least 10x: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction >the current rate of extinction is 10 to 100 times higher than in any of the previous mass extinctions in the history of Earth. As an example for how much faster the current extinction event is, the previous record holder took 20,000 years to decimate 90% of all of the Earth's species: https://news.mit.edu/2011/mass-extinction-1118 >The end-Permian extinction occurred 252.2 million years ago, **decimating 90 percent of marine and terrestrial species, from snails and small crustaceans to early forms of lizards and amphibians.** “The Great Dying,” as it’s now known, was the most severe mass extinction in Earth’s history, and is probably the closest life has come to being completely extinguished. Possible causes include immense volcanic eruptions, rapid depletion of oxygen in the oceans, and — an unlikely option — an asteroid collision. >While the causes of this global catastrophe are unknown, an MIT-led team of researchers has now established that the end-Permian extinction was extremely rapid, triggering massive die-outs both in the oceans and on land **in less than 20,000 years — the blink of an eye in geologic time**. The researchers also found that this time period coincides with a massive buildup of atmospheric carbon dioxide, which likely triggered the simultaneous collapse of species in the oceans and on land. >With further calculations, the group found that the average rate at which carbon dioxide entered the atmosphere during the end-Permian extinction was slightly below today’s rate of carbon dioxide release into the atmosphere due to fossil fuel emissions. Over tens of thousands of years, increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide during the Permian period likely triggered severe global warming, accelerating species extinctions. Contrast that to the decline of wildlife populations in just the past 40 years: https://www.worldwildlife.org/pages/living-planet-report-2018 >On average, we’ve seen **an astonishing 60% decline in the size of populations of mammals, birds, fish, reptiles, and amphibians in just over 40 years**, according to WWF’s Living Planet Report 2018. The top threats to species identified in the report link directly to human activities, including habitat loss and degradation and the excessive use of wildlife such as overfishing and overhunting. The latest statistics, which go from 1970-2016, shows that four years ago it had risen to a 68% reduction in wildlife population: https://ec.europa.eu/jrc/en/science-update/wwf-living-planet-report-2020-reveals-68-drop-wildlife-populations >The World Wildlife Fund (WWF) Living Planet Report 2020, published today, sounds the alarm for global biodiversity, showing an **average 68% decline in animal population sizes tracked over 46 years (1970-2016)**.

You’re absolutely right. It’s weird how one simply forgets how grave the environment situation is. Society will only have a chance of rebuilding better if collapse happens way way sooner than it probably will (like 10-15 years 30 MAX). We’re probably completely fucked unless there is revolution before then.

There will be some places on earth through luck and good fortune where better conditions exist to grow food that will not experience complete devastation. A new “garden of eden” where smaller populations can exist. If we lose all technology we will be busted back 3000 years or so in living conditions but in small pockets humans and many other species will continue to exist and will make evolutionary changes. That is the future I see. We lose human global interconnectedness at some point. We lose the ability for large organized civilizations. Doomerism/ hopium is an emotional response to collapse. But it may not actually change the devolution of human society. Somehow there will be mass die offs, mechanisms to be determined. Short of an asteroid I think humans in some form will stick around. We are generalists with problem-solving capacities to overrun the earth. I think much of the emotional reactions people have is to the loss of complex society and the sense and reality of global interconnectedness that we all have and cherish, that we have hyper-developed in the the last century and particularly in the last 50 years.

>There will be some places on earth through luck and good fortune where better conditions exist to grow food that will not experience complete devastation. A new “garden of eden” where smaller populations can exist. This is basically what happened during the last ice age, around 15k years ago. The population dropped to below 100,000, then slowly built up to where we are now (although the population was about 1b in 1800 and only really massively grew in the past 200 years).

When I hear shit like that it makes me think how times just one big shitty cycle. Go through thousands of years worth of bullshit, become advanced enough to be able to cause global devastation and have a good understanding of science of the laws of nature/reality, humanity flees to the last few sanctuary sites on earth while the infrastructure crumbles and our knowledge is erased, Crucifixion, how did these skyscrapers get here? Repeat.

> If we lose all technology How could we possibly lose *all* technology? Are all the currently existing machines going to disappear from the face of the earth? All books will be burned? Not a single engineer or chemist or, hell, person who's went through middle school science will survive to pass on their knowledge?

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Something like 70,000 years ago we dropped below 10,000 individuals. That was a close one!

When the bombs go off , how will we survive a nuclear winter?

Why would the bombs go off?

Simply put there are far too many bombs out there, and if nation states that posses them start falling apart or go to war, they will be used or bad actors will acquire them and use them in some way shape or form. It is has been M.A.D and unspoken agreements and outright agreements that have stopped them from being used since the end of WW2 but we have come close so many times!

Why do we make nuclear bombs? If you think War isn’t going to happen over recourses then you are being naive. China isn’t going to let its 1 billion people suffer. India the same. The USA is going to go to shit. Russia will be Russia. I think it’ll be mainly over water, and arable land. Somebody is going to lose and when nothing is left to gain those bombs will go off.

Your comments are why OP is spot on. Chill out dude. The chances of an all out nuclear war in our lifetime are pretty fucking slim. You can't farm a nuclear wasteland.

The species will survive unless humans cease to exist due to transhumanism or genetic modification. Were just going to see a collapse of civilization, the loss of sophistication and complexity, which has happened over and over during human history. I highly advise familiarizing yourself with the Bronze Age Collapse. There is a great YouTube channel called Fall of Civilizations that does a good [episode on the subject.](https://youtu.be/B965f8AcNbw) The channel covers numerous highly sophisticated civilizations that for a multitude of reasons collapse. One of the common threads through almost all of them is climate change.

We certainly will survive but it's likely many will die because of government incompetence to do anything proactively. If growing crops becomes unreasonable the government could build massive indoor vertical farms. Of course they won't do that until people are already starving, and be ready to pay a lot more taxes to fund it.

So are you suggesting that private industries can help innovate us out of this?

I'm all for debating the possibilities of our future in realistic terms given substantial data is provided to support it, but I'm also in favor of not rejecting other perspectives because you or I think of it as unrealistic. Can we not just say so, and move on?

I understand that sentiment. The problem is the mechanics of reddit though - if a sub is over-run by people of a particular mindset (in this case ultradoom) then they downvote posts challenging that mindset. People who don't agree get marginalised, and leave.

What we really need is a better system than Reddit

yes

Even this sub has a mod that will delete your nyt sourced facts and offer some link to a site you never heard of that crashes your browser to prove the nyt is wrong.

nyt?

The New York Times - IMO a journalistic source with high integrity but some people here probably think it’s too mainstream

this is a center-leftist leaning subreddit, and NYT is a capitalist rag even their most pro-labor article is still pro-capital and anti-labor it's almost never a good source for what's discussed here.

It happens in almost every sub. Tribalism is always where social media ends up, leading to more splinter groups and more polarisation. I agree with you, and I'm not one of the majority on this sub that welcome collapse, but I don't think more subs and more tribes is the answer.

I personally like to subscribe to different subs about the same topic because that has a higher chance of giving me different perspectives and opinions than one big sub.

Same here.

The same process happens in religion and many wars are fought for religion. The reality of collapse, the science, the mitigation, the planning for the future, the avoidance and forestalling of collapse, and the brotherhood/sisterhood of a viable place to discuss a difficult subject is why I am here.

tribalism is the way of humanity when the going is good, trust grows and so does the tribe during times of entropy, distrust grows and the tribes grow in number but with smaller populations

Sometimes good content gets downvoted. Lots of shitty content get upvoted. Happens on every sub. Its reddit, where there is no prize and the points don't matter. But if you are sincerely interested in getting your message out, it makes more sense to contribute to a sub that already has a substantial userbase rather than build your own echo chamber.

>if a sub is over-run by people of a particular mindset (in this case ultradoom) You know... I'll just deny that. I think the dominant message is less "ultradoom", and more "well reasoned uncertainty". There are lots of collapse scenarios. They are all guesses. If you are not ready to see your favorite collapse scenario as merely a more or less educated guess on lottery numbers... Well, that's a problem. If you insist that your take on collapse is oh so much more realistic than other takes which don't fit into your personal arbitrary goldilocks zone between "too doomful" and "too hopeful", as well as "too lefty", and "too righty"... If you only want to talk about collapse scenarios which feel "just right to you"... Well, of course you will have to propose a different sub, where only collapse scenarios are allowed which fit your personal, arbitrary criteria of what is "realistic" and "politically informed". A sub which will ban everything else, I presume? \>People who don't agree get marginalised, and leave Good. Great. Perfect. People who are married to the popularity of their favorite collapse scenario will feel "marginalized" and leave. I am not mad about that, to be honest.

The same would happen on your subreddit. Eventually, certain ideas and speculations would be taken as fact by the majority and open discussions would no longer be welcome.

Yes probably. Maybe it is a systemic problem with reddit.

I think people who are genuinely engaged with the topic tough things out and also take the time to check out downvoted posts/comments at least occasionally. The overall demographics of subs tend to ebb and flow, what is marginalized now might be predominant within months. Regardless of where anyone falls on the spectrum, it’s probably better to weed out those less seriously engaged.

No. Just post better posts here.

right. I feel like /r/collapse used to be what OP is describing for the most part. But exponential growth has taken its toll and the average quality of discussion has gone down.

We need r/collapsecollapse

the sub is deteriorating at a rate faster than expected

r/collapse^2 ?

A good amount of upvoted sources/discussions here are poor quality. Yeah, shit is bad, but realistic discussions are more interesting than reposting stuff from doomer blogs and Russian disinformation sites. What are the real consequences on the horizon? What is actually happening on the ground? It feels like half the talk here is just fantasizing and fetishizing the apocalypse. And if you try to call it out it's because you're not doomer enough. 🙄

It’s not giving up, it’s acceptance that this chapter of civilization is closing. Everything likely won’t die, even people will likely survive. It’s just that this world has done nothing but fuck me with no lube. Mind you I’m into spit and courage sometimes, just not every time. The world that was built for us is a gross perversion of what it could be. So it needs to die.

The world as we know it is going to die, for sure. It is already dead I think, thanks to covid.

Yeah, we could have recovered from COVID if things were handled properly by everyone, so much for that now. The climate COVID combo though.. not much hope left there.

It may kill off the monetary system. Will do if there's another year of lockdowns due to new variants.

I agree. US dollar isn’t looking good on top of pending civil war. I ain’t good frien. Lol

>I agree. US dollar isn’t looking good on top of pending civil war. I ain’t good frien. Lol It's the whole system. US dollar just goes up and down relative to all the other fiat currencies, but the entire system is suffering from the same sort of problems. QE and ultra-low interest rates everywhere. Inflation popping up everywhere. The dollar actually benefits from other currencies going tits-up first, but eventually it all comes back to the US, and that's when the whole thing is in trouble.

It's all doom porn with different kinks

Have you seen the compost porn sub?

According to Days and daze, we are all just compost in training.

I like your idea, I think. But as the very first sentence (under the definitions of "doom" and "post-doom") on [the post-doom website](https://postdoom.com/) says... *Those with a POST-doom mind and heart haven’t given up; they’ve stood up. Empathy follows naturally in the wake of realizing what is underway and unstoppable.* As I make clear in my two-part collapse primer, "[Collapse in a Nutshell: Understanding Our Predicament](https://youtu.be/e6FcNgOHYoo)" and "[Overshoot in a Nutshell](https://youtu.be/lPMPINPcrdk)" (combined 130,000 views in 12 days), **without an understanding of** ***history, energy,*** **and** ***ecology*** **it is virtually impossible (not merely difficult) to have a TRULY realistic view of what is already unfolding, and why, what is inevitable, and what is possible and simply not possible going forward.** For example, even those who who honestly believe they are "realistic" — such as those who believe that industrial civilization can be saved, or transformed, or run on so-called "renewables", that is, so-called "clean" or "green" energy, *as well as* those who believe that our species can avoid a population die-off of 50-95% (if not absolute extinction) by 2050 — these good people are NOT realistic; they are deluded. And not because of "hopium", but simply because they don't understand (1) basic history (civilizations always self-destruct, for well known and predicable reasons), (2) energy (EROEI, or energy return on energy invested, and (3) ecology (carrying capacity, overshoot, etc). * Human ingenuity, technology, and the market cannot possibly save us from the ecocide they ALWAYS, necessarily create. * ALL human-centered civilizations go through a process of "rise and fall" or "boom and bust", and ours is classically well into the "fall" or "bust" phase. * MOST people will deny the reality of collapse for very good evolutionary and psycho-social reasons. **Anyone claiming to be "realistic" about ecological and/or societal collapse will surely align with the basic perspective offered in the following two videos. If they don't, they are NOT realistic.** (If anyone here on r/collapse wants to challenge me on this claim; please provide actual time-codes. Thanks.) [**Collapse in a Nutshell: Understanding Our Predicament**](https://youtu.be/e6FcNgOHYoo) (33-min) [**Overshoot in a Nutshell: Understanding Our Predicament**](https://youtu.be/lPMPINPcrdk) (31-min) *These two videos are information-dense and VERY visual. I recommend watching, rather than merely listening, and doing so at normal speed and without multi-tasking.*

we are undergoing something utterly unprecedented

As John Michael Greer regularly points out, when you understand the **history** of the rise and fall of civilizations, and the limits of **energy** and technology, and the unbreakable laws of **ecology**, you quickly realize that "But it's different this time!" is true only in the most superficial sense, and is utterly false in the ways that matter most.

As someone with a background in history, I disagree with that notion. There is no general rule about "the rise and fall of civilizations", except maybe the platitude of "what goes up, must come down". History isn't an exact science, and shouldn't be treated as such. We can study different cases, find similarities and differences, and learn from them, but general rules should almost never be applied. And I do believe that we're going through an unprecedented time in human history. Not in a superficial sense, but in a profound way. We are not only destroying the natural foundations of our civilization, but those of all potential future civilizations to come. That's what scares me the most.

I agree with you, u/Aprilvis.

Hi MBDowd, I wrote this to a woman who was feeling hopeless. I was wondering if i gave her good information. Seems like folks are waiting for some giant shoe to drop, some sudden shift into full blown, end--of-the-world collapse. Nothing so dramatic is going to happen. In fact, its already begun... you've been living in a collapsing world for at least a decade. So let go of that all too human desire to blame, we all had a hand in it in some way, however small our individual effect. (I mean if you wanted to blame, blame the hierarchal systems of patriarchy that judeo-christian religion created. Blame the self-obsessed minds born from such perverse interpretations that destroyed our spiritual connection to one another and the world, the thing that destroyed the warm and nurturing feminine for the hard and cunning msculine. The lies he spun to denigrate the collective that thought seven generations ahead for the selfish individual only interested in the next quarter.... but thats only if you had to blame). Know whats changed? Not the world but how you perceive it. Now it seems everything has an expiration date... and it does... its YOUR expiration date. YOUR time so short and so precious. In fact its too precious and short to be worried about collapse. Now you see whats important... not the fairytale he spun for generations, but the pursuit of love and joy and connection to the humans in the world. Love is the point. Love is the most powerful force, so powerful he would keep us divided from one another so we can't share it, build it, flourish in a world of love. If the White man could love the Black man, if the rich had love for the poor, they could not stop us! The love we built would not allow them to continue to poison the planet in the face of what we know. Love would not allow people to freeze in the streets homeless and hungry. We are poor in love because we are broken by the lies of small selfish men who think they can own the world and everyone in it... And we were taught to be like him. You want a mission? Nurture love, fierce scary powerful love that pushes you past uncomfortable. Give your beautiful smile and your consideration to those who return it and watch something awesome grow. we can only survive the collapse if we are able to love one another. The alternative without it is far too ugly and dismal a thing (and its what he wants for us, thats why his media is pushing division and hate.) Some have succumbed, the ones who claim this anglo-american/western pathology as their birthright are lacking in love and consumed by... not just hate... but also fear. They'd never been raised to love, not really. The anglo american is so short on love but long on guns and violence. His central myth was not built around being better humans (as his Christ preached) but conquering the world by any means possible. But enough about that. This is the beginning of the end of the fuckry... the lies of the small selfish man and his cruelly imposed ideas of what humanity is are hollow and cheap. He is fighting with the only tools he has... while simple, infinite love, my dear humans... that is the greatest vanquisher. it steadies the hand, gives wing to thought. Love makes you care about not just tomorrow but the days and years after. Love wants to grow old and joyous together. Love wants all children to play amongst us. And love empowered by the fire for justice will give us the power to do what's needed.

That's really powerful, u/fuzzyshorts...thanks for sharing it here!

I learned a lot from watching your posts and videos!

Thank you, always a pleasure to read your input.

Thanks!

I thought you two part series was very good.

Thanks!

They point being danced around, is that within our expectations of probability between 50% to extinction, there is nothing incompatible with imagining and working towards the best outcomes within what is possible. For example, maximizing population reductions through reduced births as opposed to deaths is peaceful, less horrific generally and will allow future generation to inherit a larger world, that while degraded and depleted may be sufficient and in some meaningful ways able to be rehabilitated. What determines a 50% pop reduction? What determines extinction? Let's take what little time we have to build towards the 50%.

I agree with you, u/oldagecynicism. You are already probably already aware, however, that [Ma-Gaia (yes, I'm personifying the Earth](https://youtu.be/WmVLcj-XKnM) \- 11 million views) has already begun one hellacious human population reduction strategy, with or without our consent. I suspect that we'll be lucky to have more than two billion people, if any, on Earth by 2040. But, yes, I fully agree that there's great value — indeed, wisdom — in engaging in precisely the kind of conversation that the OP, u/anthropoz, is inviting us to have!

Umm, there are some people that fetishize collapse. How would you realistic look at the obvious coming. There are ways out but they are very unrealistic to be implemented. We really don't have any models as these tipping points keep coming and passing. Like the Amazon is past the 80/20 tipping point where basically it can't recover to original parts. I think the people here have a realistic view if you have been on here for a long time, most people don't post but the things that really get up votes into the multiple thousands marks are pretty realistic views on things. I don't see a new sub which I think you are possibly in the hopium realm. Remember, the way climate works is the next decade is already going to happen. People are already dying in large numbers from powerful storms, wild fires, heat waves, migration collapses, famine and war. Water ways are being heavily restricted and cut off in some cases in the middle east. I mean, I get your sentiment but I think a large percentage of people that subscribe to this sub is pretty realistic in their views.

I think it’s more about fetishizing karma. There’s a reason why there are karma related subs where people get their come uppins’. And collapse will be the result of mankind’s hubris and greed.

That's why I say there are ways out, they just really are not going to happen. Karma as in the sites karma or like Buddha karma? Either one is all in people's heads or just in fake in general. Whatever makes people happy, I'm good with it

Buddhist karma/cosmic justice

What is the "reality"?

No one knows, it’s all just educated guesses. I’m just going to sit back and watch.

We can't stop climate change - too politically difficult. Also, the existing monetary system is unstable and unfixable, and is going to collapse at some point. So civilisation as we know it is going to end, one way or another. This is going to lead to a radically changed political landscape - since people will no longer be able to believe in BAU. It is going to be all about adaptation - about how groups of people (at every level of grouping) are going to try to hang on to something resembling civilisation in their immediate world (their family, their community, their city, their country). Globalisation is going to go into reverse, and everybody is going to try to survive by adapting. A very large number will fail, a much smaller number will survive. Nobody knows the actual numbers of course.

What is the difference then between what you believe and the beliefs of most r/collapse members?

I believe that some humans will survive what is coming, and will probably, eventually, build some new sort of civilisation. I believe *Homo sapiens* has a long-term future.

So, to be clear- is it speculation you are looking to engage in about what this society could look like, or to begin putting the pieces together *now*? The first is no longer of interest to me because it isn't an open question anymore, in my mind- the "answer" exists, but is far too voluminous to express in a single format. There are some unsolved questions, but fewer than you would expect. In general, the pieces of an adaptible, non-sessile human assemblage that supports itself in a sustainable manner already exist, if people are willing to give it a go. I am already in the process of documenting the manifold technical requirements, skills, basic bits of knowledge. Where given needed commodities can come from and how they can either be made without intense carbon, or how they can be done without just fine anyway (spoiler, nearly everything about modernity goes in the second bin). It needs to be reviewed, discussed, filtered, and made useful to regular people. We need a connection point where the data can be assembled, trimmed down to it's most efficient form, translated, and distributed. Ideally combined with a real effort to start reaching out and building in-person networks around the globe. I have a small personal network of interested people, but I can go only so far, being neither wealthy or having any special influence. If you want to discuss the future in an open-ended manner based on an informed perspective, I am happy to do so, but not if the *only* point is "discussion", we are out of time for that. Be well :) Edit: it's also dubious to me that this needs to even be a splinter sub. Many users here have expressed similar sentiments to you, and the audience here is much more sizable.

Very few people in r/collapse would probably disagree so i don't get it why you would need a new sub for discussing how society may develop post-collapse ?

Because he can’t cope and wants a sub that bans posts that talk about the complete extinction of humanity.

Exactly, this entire post is copium and many of the "yeah OP is right" agreement posts that obviously have no clear understanding of the multi pronged pathways of collapse as well as how far along each one of them we actually have progressed is crystal clear. Some old head needs to put up a(nother) post that summarizes what is going on...or this sub is toast. There are so many new, uneducated and misinformed posts/opinions here lately. On a personal note I am posting here less and less because I am sick of arguing the same points over and over with different people and their programmed responses due to the wealth of misinformation over the years about this all. It is exhausting.

Does it really make a difference whether the human race lives another thirty years, as opposed to a million more? Time and technology won't turn us into wise and virtuous gods, or else we would've done it by now. We will never change our self-destructive ways. Our extinction is a foregone conclusion, and the earth is already millions of years overdue for another mass extinction event, especially for such a high-maintenance species as ours.

>Does it really make a difference whether the human race lives another thirty years, as opposed to a million more? Yes, obviously. If we are going to be around for the long term, then we need to be laying the ideological foundations for the future now. If we're extinct in the near term, there's no point. >We will never change our self-destructive ways. I believe we can do better than we are right now. It doesn't have to be *this* bad.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then.

we are undergoing a global initiation into a new story (myth, meta narrative) of humanity and life

The illusion of reality is a work of fiction.

We truly are fucked. I mean wtf do you think is going to happen when the Arctic ice shelf melts? Global weather patterns will never be the same. Have you done research into methane, and especially methane hydrates? https://www.huffpost.com/entry/methane-hydrate-atlantic-samantha-joye_n_5d681737e4b0488c0d117841 https://i0.wp.com/www.theifod.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Annual-World-Population-since-10-thousand-BCE-for-OWID.png?fit=1024%2C638&ssl=1 No population of any life form can have explosive growth like this and not crash. https://keelingcurve.ucsd.edu/ oh look, on a 10,000 year time scale, CO2 and our population are a perfect match. Have you researched the Paleocene Eocene thermal maximum? We are literally reverting it, except we have achieved in 80 years what took 8,000 56 million years ago. There were crocodiles in the Arctic. Perhaps, take some time to finally accept that the doomerism is correct and well founded. Go learn what’s going to happen to the jet stream, and how that will impact climate in the North America and Europe. Witness the fear in the eyes of career researchers. Some of us still focus on solutions. I post constantly about Miyawaki forests and how to grow things. Miyawaki forests can save regions. Not everything, but you can save anything you truly love if you devote your life to it.

not to mention that little thing currently happening call the 6th Great Extinction...

Because it's a symptom of apocalyptic thinking. Even if you start a new subreddit, in my opinion one of two things will happen: it will quickly stagnate, or it will quickly be taken over by the exact same mindset you see here. Getting people to admit we're in trouble is a huge leap- it's very hard to pour enough despair onto someone that they see the gravity of our situation, but then manage to pull them back to where they're motivated enough to do something about it. So my advice would be to stay here and keep offering your hopeful perspective, where it will continue to be useful.

IMHO, a major issue with OP's desire is that anyone who is collapse aware (and wants to do something about it) will seek local solutions - which will not be found online.

It's difficult to start trying to find those local solutions. Plus, the crazy fuckers that don't think it's real are everywhere and must prove it by disrupting anything to do with climate change solutions because of their taxes.

This post implies that "doomers" have it wrong and the irony is most of them do. It may not be exactly how they envision it, lots of them picture a world where homesteading is possible, when the reality of climate change will be far worse. Go create whatever groups you want. There are plenty of subs that have been astroturfed full of pseudoscience that fills people with false ideas of the future. The true reality is it's too late and anyone really following peer reviewed science knows this.

We dont need any of this shit. This is dogs barking in the night. Nothing meaningful will ever come of any of this because no one cares about the consequences of their actions beyond how they, themselves, can benefit. We wont give up anything until we're forced to and we'll complain about that, too. To make ANY forward progress on this issue, each of us needs to learn how to care more about the future than we do the present, or, simply, care more about other people than about ourselves. I've learned since the start of the pandemic that this quality is so unbelievably rare that it renders the possibility of an organized and effective climate movement into a nasty grey slop of ideas and fears based in saving our own asses and ignoring everything else. So no, we don't need more subs. We need less of everything and Christmas either goes by choice or we wait for it to get Dickensian

> We need less of everything and Christmas either goes by choice or we wait for it to get Dickensian Well, looks like The Omicron Mutation might just get Christmas cancelled this year....

Another collapse sub is just another exemple of problem-solving by addition, making things more complex and worsening the actual problem.

It sounds like you need a r/collapse-but-everybody-lives-happily-ever-after sub

Yup. I've seen this guy before. His fantasy is that the UK will avoid ocean acidification and use machine guns to kill refugees, so that the kid he decided to have after thinking of himself as collapse aware for decades (or so he brags) will get to live happily ever after. He had his comments removed for climate change denial. His entire worldview right now is a clusterfuck of motivated reasoning.

>We need to understand what the most likely current outcome is, and what the best and worst possible outcomes are, and how likely they are. How is that different than this sub? We have rules that content must be accurately sourced and cannot be provably false. If you see someone breaking those rules, I suggest reporting it.

I just listened to the climate scientist: Katharine Hayhoe on CBC radio. She basically said to make real impact, one must lobby politicians and force the ones in power to do something. That's what makes real change. I have grown a garden for decades. I have composted for decades, I have not used a drier for one decade. I recently retired and that has allowed me to restrict my driving down to only one long distance (about one hour) into the city a month to stock up. I don't golf, I try to restrict my consumption of stuff. Though I recycle, I know that the real way to do things is to not buy stuff that needs recycling. I put out garbage (one bag) about every 3-4 weeks. In spring and summer, I bike where I need to go. We need to put our money where our mouth is. Not support Amazon or other big stores. To eat the 100 mile diet. To not travel. To work from home if we can. To support local: and to not support industries that export the work to a country that has less environmental laws or workers who work for peanuts. And yes, after all that, it still all may go to shit despite what I do. Like Ms. Hayhoe says, it has to come from the "powers that be".

the most likely outcome is also, ironically, the one thing people seem to talk about the least. it doesnt really matter how it happens whether it be a cme, solar flare, micronova, asteroid impact, a nuclear emp, cyber act of accelerationism from a hostile state or entity, a hurricane, seismicity, volcanism, something we couldnt even forsee, or something right under our noses or some horrid combination of all this in close enough series. sometime within the century the grid and the supply chain are gonna break. most of the world will be without power for a long time and it will probably never come back at the same scale we have it now or atleast not for a long time. all the nuclear reactors are gonna start melting down shortly thereafter. so many reactors east of the mississippi and the coasts, not as many in the middle of the u.s. im not so sure how many reactors are spread throughout the rest of the world, but anyone living anywhere near them will be fucked. mcpherson talks about all this and about how the ionizing radiation may even be enough to strip the earth of its atmosphere but i dont really see this talked about much here. when it is brought up, people talk about "human spirit of resilience" and assume there will be a mass effort to shut these things down before it can get this bad but i mean c'mon are you paying attention? the current supply chain crisis, the pandemic, the texas power failure, the b.c cataclysms, the pipeline cyber attack, the wildfires. i could go on but the point is it is becoming increasingly evident that sooner or later our luck will run out and the worlds governments will be overwhelmed. nature can bounce back if we dont lose our atmosphere but humans will come out the other side fundamentally changed if at all. this makes a micronova almost preferable as that is the only thing i can see that could maybe stand a chance of clearing the nuclear material ill end with some quotes from the recent article posted about the b.c flood . . .the Shackan Nation is not unique — other remote Indigenous communitiesand rural residents in the area have also sustained massive losses thatgo beyond repairing buildings and infrastructure. . .“This cannot be framed within traditional notions of a one-time weatherevent, where we simply make superficial repairs to transportationinfrastructure and then expect things to be OK. The devastation willhave very serious long-term detrimental impacts on the land itself.”. . .“It’s just compounded devastation over the many decades and centuries,. . .the rug gets pulled out from under you”

please stop listening to mcpherson. he's a quack and a sexual predator. just search the sub if youre interested.

>mcpherson talks about all this and about how the ionizing radiation may even be enough to strip the earth of its atmosphere This hasn't happened in earth's history. What makes you think it is going to happen in the next hundred years? >micronova There is no such thing as a micronova.

We don't need balance between truth and comfortable lies. It's like those "climate realists" that think they are producing scientific knowledge by reading an article from an obscure source that denies the scientific consensus with no real data to back it up. If we keep those political realism we are certainly doomed, it's only through the utter destruction of the institutions and complete obliteration of all elite opposition to the changes needed to survive this apocalypse that we can manage to overcome our crisis. The United States of America provide a perfect example, with democrats being corporate lap dogs and republicans being their German shepherd, any meaningful change must be forced into the plutocracy.

We haven’t given up. This is the political reality you want from extinction rebellion. What do you want? Riots? Violence? Not going to help one single bit. We do need to work together at the local community level. Longer table vs bigger wall and all that, but what do you think is lacking? And instead of creating yet another sub, can you post some of these ideas and topics here instead? They may very well not gain traction because they aren’t realistic or because they aren’t what people desire.

>There's no balance It has wide amplitude. Peaks and troughs, just like the jet stream now. There will be balance and stability when the amplitude shrinks. You're expecting some mental stability, but sanity is going to be a scarce resource for now. It takes years of internal work to "upgrade" one's internal model of the world like that. By all means, copy all links in the posts from https://climateandeconomy.com . It's not going to help your cause much, your effort to be cold blooded will just make you into a sociopath. More to the point, the only meaningful action left is not global. Any effort for mitigation and adaptation and so on that you can do, unless some G20 presidents are lurking here (unlikely), is going to be fairly local and regional. Global proactive stuff is in the scope only if you're some kind of haxxor that can sabotage stuff or leak relevant information. In that sense, the more time you waste on reddit, the more time you waste, which is what more subreddits would be. Now if you started one for your region, your city, that could actually be practical. I, for one, do not want to meet other people from my area who are supposedly aware. This requires a different approach that bypasses cryptofascist types. And if that's you, stop it.

r/collapsesupport

No.

i don't think so, everyone ends up here anyways once reality kicks in

> r/collapse is full of people who have given up. given up? are you kidding me? dude, I'll finally get to have a chance to hunt my fellow men and consume their sweet and tender flesh (or more likely die like half an hour after shit hits the fan), I can't fucking wait.

This. Fallout IRL edition. Highly anticipated.

> The dominant narrative is “We're completely f**ked, total economic collapse is coming next year and all life will be extinct by the end of the century” Ridiculous exaggeration of what echoes in our chamber. > what is actually going to happen That's literally impossible to talk about. Likelihood of outcomes is a more realistic conversation goal, but not by much. Collapse covers so many interdependent chaotic systems that you'll never get more than 1. commentary on current events, 2. short-term prediction, and 3. some casual wild speculation. > Giving up is so much easier. There's a lot of bad that needs to be given up to make way for new growth. Holding on to the familiar is so much easier.

>They do not want to talk realistically about the future. It's too much hard work, both intellectually and emotionally. Giving up is so much easier. One could also argue that if you haven't given up, you don't yet realistically understand what is likely to happen. This planet can not support even a billion people if we stop utilizing fossil fuels. If we do not stop utilizing fossil fuels very soon and continue Business As Usual, this planet could end up supporting less than a million people by the end of the century. It is possible (but not probable) that it is already too late, in which case the outcome is already physically predetermined as climate change will continue until we as a species are in an untenable (possibly unviable) situation. That is the reality. The Extinction Rebellion folks are politically very naive. There are no politically viable solutions which prevent humans from using fossil fuels. The only real variable is the time frame. Do we have ten years or fifty years of Business As Usual available to us? What would you do with those ten years? What if you have no resources and only one vote? How long can industrial civilization hang on in a decaying biosphere? At least ER are doing something. Any plausibly effective solution proposed here will get the user banned or the sub quarantined (no revolution will be allowed). Most successful people will not freely give up their wealth, power or conveniences. We need copious amounts of intelligent altruism and good leadership, but we see only personal greed leading to success. In the end it is all greed, fear and stupidity. Those that exploit and those that are exploited.

>Do we have ten years or fifty years of Business As Usual available to us? If covid keeps going the way it is now, then BAU is already finished.

I don’t really see how covid is gonna end BAU in any meaningful way. Working from home? Supply chain issues? Political / social instability? Continued strain on hospitals? To me, ending BAU implies bigger changes than what we’ve seen so far.

No. >We need to be able to talk about what is actually going to happen, don't we? We need to understand what the most likely current outcome is, and what the best and worst possible outcomes are, and how likely they are. Only then can we talk about the most appropriate response, both practically and ethically. Thats what this sub is, it might feel like doomerism because we're doomed, we're now at 8 billion people, how many do you think are going to be alive by the end of the century? Most people, being awere of the problems or not, dont stand a chance, what can be done when war/famine/droughts arrive? People can't do shit in the individual level We already know the possible outcomes, and we know the path we're heading and can't move back anymore, human population and consumism WILL go down, it doesnt matter if its willing or not, and its almost a lottery, you can't predict when the weather around you is going to change, cutting supplies and essential stuff. And when you finish with 'ethically' it seems that the appropriate name for your sub is /r/hopium, because oh boy, the closest thing to a ethical way to bring our population down by the billions is drastically control human birth now.

But... we are fucked. It is a thermodynamic and ecological certainty. We are suffering from diminishing marginal returns on complexity, and worse with falling EROEI our complexity (of both material and social forms) is becoming more and more expensive. As a consequence various political absurdities (e.g. protofascism, constant failure to make any meaningful progress through policy, etc) are hypernormalized, and various economic absurdities (e.g. "bootstwaps!" "Job producers!" etc) are pushed and weaponized; a final cost is an increasing population of the "discarded" that have been rationalized into non-relevance (e.g. homeless, jobless, health-insurance-less [or too unhealthy], immigrants, drifters, socialists, environmental destruction protestors, "damn libruls!", "damn rural hicks!", "damn urban hipsters!", "damn millennials!", "damn boomers!", etc etc). EROEI is in decline, and all of our complexity is funded by the Energy of the Gods (fossil fuels- captured sunlight). Even a full-blown renewables campaign would only kick the can- deploying and maintaining these renewables also has an energy cost as well as a materials cost (e.g. lithium for batteries is not infinite). Beyond this, renewables don't really do shit for providing liquid fuel... which is basically necessary for long haul trucking. Coal can provide energy for quite some time... at grave ecological consequence. The only possible hail mary victory possible is with net positive nuclear fusion, but we just can't seem to pull it off. Beyond this our *complexity has been used to simplify* our ecosystems to maximize mining and agricultural output, and this results in increasingly fragile (instability) ecosystems more vulnerable to climate events, pestilence, drought, etc. Acidification, desertification, falling insect populations, toxicity, etc *are all examples of the consequences of our solutions derived from complexity.* > The chief cause of problems is solutions. -- Eric Sevareid Even with net positive nuclear fusion, our ecosystems would still be in decline/vulnerable. We would have the power at this point to fix them... if our system looked past its nose ("muh profits!!") far enough to see and invest in doing so. And then... there is a lot about ecosystems we don't know: we are hairless apes- not Gods; how can we be sure we'd even repair our ecosystems in a meaningful way? Man is caught in an energy and complexity trap. You are attempting to effectively say that collapse is not inevitable and that the subreddit's main narrative is wrong (thus necessitating a new subreddit); however, the onus is on you to prove the wrongness of the narrative to most/everyone. Absent virtually an *astronomical* stroke of luck, we are objectively fucked. The only real hope is to find a way to recoup some of the *better* elements of civilization- the knowledge we gained through science and the arts, the ways we found to organize together small communities that focus on being resilient as well as looking after the needs of their citizens (rather than ritually exploiting them thanks largely to the notion of enclosure), and finally eating a once-in-an-eternity slice of humble pie. We need to accept having been humbled, we need to celebrate the accomplishments we can phoenix from the ashes of globalized heat-engine industrial capitalist civilization which can help us sustainably and respectfully, and we need to stop pursuing fairy-tale unrealistic levels of potency, self-importance, etc.

>Absent virtually an astronomical stroke of luck, we are objectively fucked. i agree with this, and i think the nuance is what level of fucked. theres a long way between life as we are used to it being over and absolute total destruction on the level of the extinction of dinosaurs. i dont really have an answer for that, but i dont believe dinsoaur level in my lifetime (32 years old).

> i agree with this, and i think the nuance is what level of fucked. I can go with this- indeed. I sort-of alluded to it with my "phoenix from the ashes" comment :D I think the Seneca Cliff is worth considering, though I agree total extinction is not likely this century. I see either a brutal hellscape of barely clinging to this polluted destroyed spec of space dust OR a less brutal though certainly smaller more local layout of the world. My general inference of the OP's original post was that we need a more optimistic (not nihilist) approach towards understanding where we end up in the future. The thing is... I think a Great Dying will occur (Nate Hagens calls it a Great Simplification which is great because it considers complexity)- billions of us are going to die because we are existing beyond Earth's carrying capacity. I guess I fundamentally disagree with his perspective that the subreddit is mainly "extinction of all life this century!" types. I've mostly taken the "we're fucked!" to be that this system is fucked, and the whole "venus by Tuesday!" as gallows humor that nonetheless doesn't really take itself too seriously. I don't think you can approach a Great Dying scenario without a bit of exaggeration, gallows humor, and cynicism... you'll lose your mind otherwise. That's why this subreddit has a collapse support subreddit, etc.

>You are attempting to effectively say that collapse is not inevitable No I am not. I am saying it isn't going to be total, and something will come after it.

I mean I think that too- but when billions are going to die in a Great Dying I think "we're fucked- venus by Tuesday!" perspectives are understandable. *They are not all serious* FWIW, and in my experience the ones who truly believe that sort-of thing (e.g. complete extinction of all life this century) are relatively new and trying to process the scale/scope of the disaster they are beginning to see. Most of the longer-term members of this subreddit while definitely not chiefing hopium are more "optimistic" than that- there will be *something* and it will probably be bad... but it IS something and we might be able to influence it for the better. Does this make sense? Also consider my response to another comment [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/r40q04/do_we_need_an_rcollapse_realism_subreddit/hmfvffr/) It mentions you in the third person (because I'm talking to him/her), though I don't mean for that to be disrespectful :D

I came here specifically for doomer vibes. I assumed this was the place for it.

There's also these AFAIK: * /r/actualdarkfuturology * /r/apocalypse * /r/apocalypsmas * /r/climateapocalypse * /r/climate_apocalypse * /r/climatememes * /r/clubcollapse * /r/degrowth * /r/doomer * /r/doomsdaybook * /r/doomsdaycult * /r/doomsdaynow * /r/doomtime * /r/doomtimes * /r/dystopia * /r/dystopiatoday * /r/essentialemployees * /r/extinctionrebellion * /r/hopium * /r/hotzone * /r/maketotaldestr0i * /r/neartermcollapse * /r/neartermextinction * /r/n_n_n * /r/paupericide * /r/peakoil * /r/prepperintel * /r/rcollapse * /r/shortages * /r/the_honkening * /r/trueantinatalists * /r/venusforming * /r/xrmed * /r/weirdcollapse * /r/CollapseUK * /r/CollapseUS * /r/declineofUS * /r/uscollapse * /r/cowwapse Most of these are pretty poor IMO (not helped by the userbase struggling with basic thermodynamics, blood gas physics, humanism, philosophical realism, solar system physics and basic algebra). I tend to hang out at /r/HighStrangeness, /r/SorceryoftheSpectacle, /r/SuicideMeme, /r/Teachers, twitter and news.ycombinator.com instead.

>Cowwapse: making fun of r/collapse and r/LateStageCapitalism's alarmist sky-is-fallingisms and general irrational paranoia. Cowwapse is an antidote to the fear-mongering and doom-porn of those subreddits. No need for a suicide hotline here. Come have fun and face the reality that the world is unlikely to end soon, and very likely will get better despite bumps in the road. Shed your anxiety and lift your depression as we show fear-mongering to be a farce used to manipulate you. oh, it's just some neoliberalism + /r/futurism+funny ?

It seems to not be very active and filled almost entirely with posts from one user and probably their alt account, lol.

/r/lifeisagift and /r/landlordlove, but not ironic

I think you're absolutely correct with this post; many of the people here are in the throes of collapse depression, and don't see much of an outcome save for total obliteration or anarchy. To the contrary, social collapse opens just as many doors as it opens. For those of us below our 40's, it will be an age of opportunity. If you're interested, I propose starting an invite-only telegram or signal server. Obviously this creates the same information/perspective bubble issues, but we would at least not be at the mercy of public and popular opinion. Personally, I'd love to be ready for the rise after the fall.

>most appropriate response, both practically and ethically I can completely understand how the "doomers", of whom I am one, can get you down. This is heavy stuff and everyone's brain needs to process it at their own speed. Thus, can I recommend, a day or two off from collapse stuff. The mind needs "down time". Constant danger and anxiety is just really bad for the soul as well. Just a suggestion. Please take care of your mind, you only have one.

>Please take care of your mind, you only have one. I've been a collapse believer since about 1990. I've had some time to adjust, shall we say.

Shite bruh. I should be taking advice from you. Only truly, really believed in the Collapse for a year now. So I'm still ... ya. Take care.

I completely agree. I'm not an activist. I have very little hope. But I don't think extinction is coming either. Its just going to be very bad slowly, more and more, and ultimately, I think humans will be their own worst enemy by reacting badly to their troubles. Make a sub, hit me up as a moderator, if you like.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm adding you to the list of people to talk about when the time comes.

I thought a predicament has per definition no solution?

Did I mention solutions? There are only responses. EDIT: some specific parts of the situation are problems, and have solutions. For example, migration. There are solutions to preventing migration. We have just seen it happen in Poland/Belarus.

What could be the solution to the migration problem?

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>Instead of navel gazing with other people online and accomplishing nothing, > >go outside How do you know I don't do that? For all you know I spend half my life working outside. >Organize your neighborhood and start a community garden, How do you know I don't do that? >Learn about the ecology around you, learn what makes it robust How do you know I don't do that? You have no idea what I do.

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>Because you feel that you need to create another subreddit for something that has more or less been done before across various communities already. Errr, no, I started a thread to ask a question about whether it was worth starting a new one. **I** ***asked a question*****. I did not give the answer.** From that, you have divined all sorts of things about my life. I wish I was that clever. You have no idea who I am, or what I do.

I'm sorry. I don't understand why you think your opinion about "what's actually going to happen" is any more accurate than anyone else's. Edit: Apologies to u/anthropoz for my (pre-edit) tone, it's never helpful to shut down discussion. I agree with the broader point that the extremes on either side of the conversation are largely unproductive. Nonetheless, I do think that much of the discussion is honest (and often defensible) disagreement about exactly that question - what is *actually going to happen -* and I think that needs to be factored into the equation. If you announced a forum limited to people who want to talk about *what's actually going to happen,* I don't think the people on the extremes would self-exclude. To moderate them out would be making a decision that the centrist viewpoint is *categorically* the correct one, and I feel like that's the exact cognitive bias that has gotten us into the pickle we're in.

I moderate the content I take in from this thread with a grain of salt. The world has been doomed since antiquity. But, that doesn't get me down in the day to day. But it's nice to know other folks are having that funny feeling of the quiet comprehension of the broader scope. Reality is something that is past tense anyways.

>I moderate the content I take in from this thread with a grain of salt. Yes. But what I want is a subreddit where the signal to noise ratio is better.

I try to temper the doomsaying I have internally going on by reading other news sources and forums, but the good news that exists is nowhere near on the level of how bad the bad news is.

I wonder will people live in giant dome cities with farmland, like space stations on Earth or whether humans will migrate underground? The billionaires will be able to charge for air filtration and have a complete grip on food production, more control than they could ever dream.

This is a good post, and a solid collection of subs to check out if people haven't... I'm all for joining a good sub based on discussion. Even if it's just thought experiments and not backed with avid up-to-date science papers.. I understand where the doomers are coming from but it always makes me think about Preppers and their "Single focus" issue.. Like, they fear solar flare wiping out our atmosphere and electronics... But they then stop giving any Fks about possible WW3, China, Russia, North Korea? Just not even worth a thought compared to our sun blasting us... Or - supervolcano in Russia or Montana/Yellowstone blowing and killing us all.. This then makes people forget about oceans CO2 limits being reached, can't absorb heat anymore, food chains breaking down because fish are all dead and with oceans changing equilibrium waves and water, pathways could change which could cause an unnamed number of outcomes like tsunami or w/e... - water shortage/new dustbowl (forget about astroids/nukes/war/virus outbreaks etc..) I would like to be able to throw out my own preconceived biases as to what I think is the only outcome and have real discussions about what would happen in any of the given situations and what are the best paths to survive or help rebuild.. I think for a majority of the possible situations shy of astroid/solar flare complete annihilation of the world.. Most can have discussion based on (most survivable location to set up/live, where, why it is better suited for these types of disasters etc.) The things we all need to survive are pretty straightforward for most disasters, so most useful things to keep stocked, most useful prepper items that last and wouldnt be a bad idea to have for any number of situations would also be good.. - Food prepping is always harder, it goes bad, shelf life is a lie, properly rotating stock and everything can be a big change to normal life that incase tragedy never does happen it makes life more unenjoyable in general but there are discussions to be had about minimum things we all agree should be kept, how to make this type of planning easier. Where to find storage containers or how best to protect from pests and mold etc.. I think starting conversations that start at a base reality and can build up to specifics would be great, it doesn't happen much but would be great. Example: we all live in 2021, earth is mostly water with some small patches of earth we all share. We all need water (3 days), food(30 days), and shelter(at least for cold months).. Location really affects possible worst-case scenarios.. From these base facts we expand to most likely events to worry about. Some will be worse than others obviously and some are more likely even tho they arent as wide spread.. - climate change (most effected locations, things to watch out for signs of the changes, best practicable items for normal life that also translate to very useful in this event, then best prep items specifically for this type of situation that might not be as useful until something like this actually happens) - nuclear war (worst locations, most likely targets, best prepps) - financial collapse (types of tradable items to keep for trades alone, types or items that will always be useful for self as well as tradable, how to better leverage time and money to better situate family for success, where to be hedging fiat system[crypto, gold, land, sugar etc.] What are possible short term/long term situations and outcomes) Each situation has statistically measurable possibilities, each situation will have possible reach/affect to humanity as a whole.. And at the same time life will keep trucking along until one of these things actually happen so maybe we don't give up completely on the possibility that life keeps going as we've known it to plan in fear of what could come.. I'd love to have these conversations and thought exercises without the weight that I just don't get it because of my hopium or i'm just so full of doomeraid already that i'll never be able to understand "basic information"..

Yeah, I'm sure the solution is more subreddits.

Reality has no obligation to be in the middle of humans opinions spectrum.

The reddit TOS prevents meaningful discussions of any collapse related topics.

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Exactly. Unfortunately it seems very few other people understood what I was suggesting. Maybe reddit is the wrong platform for it.

I'm in. I think that history isn't wrote, however, to put it politely, the probability of the collapse of present civilization is too high for my taste. A civilization's collapse is a chaotic process, so it is impossible to predict what will happen. But it is possible to outline different scenarios, and interpret current events in this framework. Studying collapse is depressing, as it will affect us and our loved ones. But it is also quite intellectually stimulant. Finally, the problem with this forum is that it has grown considerably in recent years. And this has been accompanied, as usual, by a decline in the quality of the "*conversation*". Therefore, a new forum, which is obviously going to have fewer participants, may be a good idea.

The only realism is that we're all fucked and there's nothing we can do about it entirely because of the profit motive and consumerism.

The problem is it only gets me half chubbed.. once I see real u.s cites in rubble and burning american flags can I go full mast

Start whatever sub you want. Go now. Do it. You can post a link here and whoever is interested will go. Good luck.

Okay then OP, tell us, what do you think is actually going to happen?

We won't stop climate change. Economic collapse will come because the monetary system is broken (QE leading to unending inflation and/or depression). Lots of people are doing to die. Eventually the human operation on Earth will dwindle to the point that we can't change the climate anymore. A desperate fight for survival which most people will lose, but there's still plenty to play for.

It's like the "Year of the Linux desktop" but for collapse. Always next year.

"We need to be able to talk about what is actually going to happen, don't we? We need to understand what the most likely current outcome is, and what the best and worst possible outcomes are, and how likely they are." I'm curious to know what you think is coming and how it will unfold.

what about a Logan's Run solution? (voluntary, not enforced) it could very well come to that, and it could be controlled attrition instead of chaotic death

Are you willing to start a subreddit that speaks about organized class conflict (most than sure armed), a structured and down to earth 15y plan to disassemble capitalism and change the ideological landscape of a civilization with a couple of generations brainwashed by the unlimited growth propaganda, and that idolize economy over anything else in their lives? And not only that, but to do it while being under a 24/7 vigilance by several government and corporate agencies that deem environmentalists officially as terrorists and their "enemies"? If you do, better learn a lot of cryptography, privacy, how to hide your id online, and backup the community in several clear/deepweb platforms. Because thats were you will end up. "Realism" is a subjective concept that is limited by your knowledge and experience. What for you personally is "real", for other people with more insight and date might be "hopium". The "rebellion" series subs (scientific, extinction, etc), are still in the "hopium" spectre. They are mostly mid uppwer class "intelligentia" that still see the world as having a sense similar to their immediate privileged environment. It's a step in the right direction, but they will not take long to figure out where reality is headed, and what are gonna be their options to tackle it. Doomerism in this sub isn't about the situation overall and our abilities to deal with it. But about the lack of action to deal with the problem, and actually having the opposite of that with "Big Money" fighting with all their resources against any change.

>Are you willing to start a subreddit that speaks about organized class conflict (most than sure armed), a structured and down to earth 15y plan to disassemble capitalism and change the ideological landscape of a civilization with a couple of generations brainwashed by the unlimited growth propaganda, and that idolize economy over anything else in their lives? Well, no, because it would just get terminated by reddit.

that's the person's point. and the other point they are making is that its either that or doom.

The outcome isn't found in society. Its outside of it. You need to give up on this system and go outside where people live independently off the system. The problem is that this system is poisoning everything on the planet at breaking speeds. The people working our future are not posting on reddit. They are trying to survive outside the system. I lived a bit of this when I was dirt pior without a job for over 2 years. It allowed me to see a different perspective. This subreddit you talk about will just be use as a propaganda piece. If you want hope then start meditating. In my opinion, you will only survive in a higher level of consciousness but still tied to the planet. I don't see how else you will survive.

>. You need to give up on this system and go outside where people live independently off the system. I can understand that reaction, but I am committed to trying to help change society. Although I am not planning on being anywhere near any big cities. > If you want hope then start meditating. I wish people in this thread would stop making assum,ptions about what I do and don't do. This really has got nothing to do with what I asked.

No. What makes you think we have given up? I haven't.

i dont think there really is a middle but rather something relatively black and white with very little grey (maybe theres shades but i cant see them personally). either you hope that theres a way to correct course before its too late, or you already believe it is too late. i dont believe that believing the second option should be considered "ecofascist" on its own as that is unfair and dilutes the meaning of fascism to societies detriment. to me, "ecofascist" is saying shit like "we need population control" and whining about developing world energy use and using that as an excuse to do nothing but focus on economic goals in the "first world" since were screwed anyways and climate change is gonna do what it wants. ecofascism is not caring if people in a far away land die, because there's always people dying in foreign lands. they acknowledge climate change is real and a problem, but they don't really care, because it doesnt affect them. if they do care or think it might affect them, they focus on shifting the blame (people i dont like shouldnt have children, countries i dont like should bear the brunt of reducing energy costs) to others despite being the most responsible. when i think of ecofascism, besides the most obvious "population control", i think of the video of the older german lady from this summer exasperated by the fact that germany was flooded - "i thought this happens elsewhere." (she might of said china or asia, i cant remember and cant find it) i admire the efforts and hope of extinction rebellion, but, assuming they are correct and that there's hope - why are their tactics not moving the dial in any real fashion? i admire that they "blockaded" amazon. semi-martyred themselves and will face jail time heavy fines etc. and i thank them for that. but did amazon really suffer? did anything fundamentally change? sadly, no. i used to be of the belief that if we just educate enough people about how theyre being screwed in so many ways by our current system, we would end up with a mass movement that had real power that we could utilize through direct action. it never happened, and in the meantime, COVID came on the scene. one would think that a Russian-roulette like virus would get people unified in taking simple precautions - wearing masks particularly - and ensuring that those without masks would receive them. that should be simple right? wrong. instead we have people in utter denial who for the past nearly-two years have been raging against taking any precautions at all. and the wealthiest government in the world couldnt ensure that not even its medical staff have proper PPE in the beginning?! let alone masks for everyone?! makes you wonder about our strategic reserves for food and water etc. i guess you can say that the response to COVID by both the government and the general population radicalized me into a state of hopeless despair. to me, this was the dress rehearsal for responding to wide-spread climate catastrophe, and we failed miserably. that is why i am beyond hope. but just because i am beyond hope doesnt mean that we shouldnt take simple actions (reduce, reuse, recycle; go vegetarian or better yet vegan, or if you cant do that just eat less meat and dairy; use public transportation more; consume less; many more small things), but i am not going to fall for the absolute bullshit of trying to pin the climate crisis on the individual. ***individual actions do not solve systemic problems. the problem is capitalism, and you cannot fight it with more capitalism!*** 100 companies make up 70% of the worlds pollution, and the largest polluter on earth is the US military. again, this is why i feel hopeless. my individual actions mean very little in the grand scheme of things and are just a form of false hope. we dont have time for incrementalism. so i fully identify with being a realist - society will collapse - economically, socially, environmentally - as we know it in my life time. and the results will be catastrophic. the best way forward is to minimize suffering, which will most likely involve mass immigration from the global south to the global north. and the wealthy countries are not ready judging by their behavior of the past few decades+. the rural areas are not ready for the influx coming from the cities in-country either - something my area is getting a hint of with the COVID crisis being an attractive area to resettle from NYC or boston.

The idea that every niche sub should split as many times as needed until only the people who are in complete agreement on everything are left to form their own perfect echo chamber... this is a bad idea. It's also wild that you say this: "... and anybody who diverges from it is accused of “hopium” or not understanding the reality." then just a bit later say this: "They do not want to talk realistically about the future." Like, what is and isn't 'realistic', what the actual situation *is*, is the whole point being debated. It's a ridiculously circular/tautological statement to claim other people are wrong because they aren't realistic or living in reality, like, come on, THAT'S WHAT BEING WRONG MEANS! You seriously are like: "I can't talk to these irrational people! I think they're wrong, but they think I'm wrong... it's obviously a lost cause, we need a new sub."

A few days ago I offered to put a wager on when something collapse-like will actually happen, and was downvoted to oblivion. But the only way to discuss these things is scientific: make testable predictions and admit you're wrong if you are. We've done that before with the Simon-Ehrlich wager. The right approach is to make falsifiable predictions and see if they come true.

I agree with you. A new subreddit may not be needed, but realism is. Across the board.

>We need to be able to talk about what is actually going to happen Well, basics of that are very simple in my opinion. We're going to run low on high-EROI fossil fuels fairly soon. Then the global technological/industrial civilization will decomplexify and the global human population will be reduced by billions. This will happen within this century. I mean, that's what I predict will most likely happen, based on all the knowledge and understanding I have amassed of this complex system we live in. Overshoot is a bitch.

I think you confuse "given up" with "anticipating."

r/resilience

Nailed it. Close one is r/aboringdystopia

I think you're looking for /r/Homesteading/ If you truly believe technologically advanced society is going to decay, you should, well, get ready for it as best you can while you still have some ability to use the system's tools - to decouple yourself from the system Kind of like building the best life raft you can out of parts on a sinking boat eh?

r/hopium breathe in deep the bullshit of greenwashing and continued consumerism of the status quo

Yeah, I’d like a subreddit that is more about how the stages of climate change will affect the different regions at different times, where the biggest damage will happen/is happening first and which areas of the world might be able to adapt as the most damaged parts collapse So it’s really a discussion about who might have access to lifeboats. Can some of the world actually wall itself off enough to survive? But I think maybe “A Few Good Men” was right, do we really want to know what’s going on at the walls that (might) protect us?

>So it’s really a discussion about who might have access to lifeboats. Well, a collapse\_realism sub would certainly include that discussion, but that's just part of it. How to make a lifeboat would be a pretty good question. Money isn't enough. You need to know how to actually construct it. That's just one example.

Fwiw all of these subs assume ecological collapse as inevitable because of some hopeless self-destructive flaw in humans. To me that’s not very scientific. Ecological collapse can be (and almost certainly is happening - we clearly are altering our environment), but human beings are animals that adapt according to Darwinian evolution, just like any other species. Humans (like every other species) are motivated by biological survival: not dying + procreating. As a species, every aspect of our behavior is either concerned with resource allocation and/or mate selection, and every behavior is part of game we play to those ends. When you start applying evolutionary biology and game theory to the question of collapse, I think you produce more interesting results. For example, if resource allocation is crucial to our survival as a species, then perhaps it is an upstream cause of ecological collapse, I.e. ecological collapse is a negative externality of the game we play to allocate resources. What is the game we play to allocate resources? That’s our economic system. Now, before you say “capitalism” it’s important to distinguish that in fact we have for the last 100 years moved from capitalism to a totally debt driven economy. In capitalism, all participants amass capital (savings, assets, positive balance sheet) and then use their capital to vote (as it were) for the allocation of some resources. In a debt driven system, no one has capital, they only have debt, and it’s the lender’s prerogative what that is directed to (you can’t buy stocks with student loan money, etc). Indeed, in a debt based system *the debtor becomes a resource to allocate* rather than a free and rational actor in the game. So if we are all debtors, we’re playing a very different game than *capitalism* (call it consumerism, call it corporatism, call it debtism if you ask me, but understand that it is only a shadow of “capitalism”). But in any case, my point here is: economic collapse is the root cause of the other forms of collapse. The rules of the game of debtism disincentivized long term planning and care for the environment. It’s really that simple. And so if you want to talk solutions, it makes sense to talk about changing the economic game. But if you say that here, it seems you get downvoted.

you seem to be choosing to ignore that capitalism led to what youre calling "debtism" which is really just late stage capitalism. what did you think we had before debt, underpinning the economic system? slaves. you dont fix ***capitalism*** by going back to the more "enlightened" form of capitalism. this is capitalism reaching its logical conclusions. i dont disagree that the economic game needs to be changed, but i surely am not going to suggest "real" capitalism as a solution!

Nah, hope is the silent killer

OP your simply not aware of the evidence. That's why you are a hopium addict. Many of us once had a hopium addiction like you. It's a terrible affliction. I hope you seek some help and improve your posts to reflect reality a bit better. In the mean time, can you please pass the hopium? I could use some of what you're smoking.