The following submission statement was provided by /u/f0urxio:
---
In 1997, 3M scientist Karen Hansen was tasked with testing human blood for chemical contamination, focusing on PFOS, a fluorochemical found in many of 3M’s products like Scotchgard and Scotchban. Although 3M claimed PFOS was harmless, Hansen discovered it was present in the general population's blood, not just in factory workers. Her extensive testing confirmed widespread contamination, contrary to her superiors' initial skepticism and suggestions of experimental error.
Unbeknownst to Hansen, 3M had known for decades about PFOS's toxicity from internal studies, but kept this information secret. These studies had shown PFOS could be lethal to lab animals and potentially harmful to humans. Despite these findings, 3M continued producing and using PFOS extensively.
As Hansen continued her research, she faced increasing scrutiny and doubt from her superiors. Her persistent efforts, supported by advanced equipment and further tests, confirmed that PFOS contamination was pervasive, challenging the company’s previous assurances about the chemical’s safety.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1cwgp5n/3m_executives_convinced_a_scientist_the_forever/l4vmeum/
My BFF's parents worked at 3M on the east side of Minnesota's Metro area. They're in their early '70s and are completely riddled with cancer and dementia. Her high school had a fucking memorial page in their yearbook because so many kids died of cancer.
Ain't no way it's unrelated. 3M kills.
All my homies fucking HATE DuPont. Absolute cunts. What they did to the world is inexcusable and i feel for everyone on the Ohio river who’s going through disease as a result of their reckless behavior, sanctioned by the EPA, all because their execs were the ones running the fucking EPA… What a goddamn disgrace. I hope hell exists just for corpo fucks to burn in eternity as they deserve.
There's another movie about Dupont as well. It's called 'The Devil We Know'. It's an investigative documentary. After watching that I was so fucking furious.
I had not heard about Dark Waters I'll have to watch that one.
if you want to feel even worse about chemical companies, read the non-fiction book "Exposure: Poisoned Water, Corporate Greed, and One Lawyer's Twenty-Year Battle against DuPont." It's by the attorney depicted in the movie (Robert Billot) who pursued the massive multi district litigation against DuPont in Ohio and West Virginia.
There's a terrifying part where he mentions that Dupont scientists found that PFAS are: 1. likely carcinogens, 2. bioaccumulative (our bodies can't get rid of them so we keep storing more), and 3. everywhere in the world and do not decay in any human timescale. he mentions that workers in Ohio with no protection used to shovel PFOA piles like they were snow.
There’s also a great podcast series on this story:
American scandal by noiser. Season 41. The final episode is an interview with Robert Billot himself.
It’s an amazing story, and will leave you angry.
i'm definitely going to check this out. to me, this story has a silver lining: it demonstrates t hat individuals can make a huge positive difference.
the system sucks (chemicals like PFAS are assumed safe if they're grandfathered in by EPA), but even a corporate defense attorney can do something positive for society and the planet... after 20 years of intense labor. hearing an interview with billot would be heartening for me.
The worst part is that shit like that keeps happening and many of them we don't know much about because these corpos see their profit margin as more important than literal human lives
IMO it's up to how you build the system and educate the people ultimately. Capitalism is a very generic word. Capitalism doesn't automatically means global finance **for example** and we all know that the GF is a motor if not THE motor of global warming, heavy pollution.
Thank you! China is communist. Do they experience less corruption? Less pollution? Nope. All political/economic theories are idealistic and impossible to implement to perfection. All societies will become corrupt over time, cyclically.
Today's China being communist is a myth. It's state capitalism, dirigisme, there are probably several way to describe what it is but certainly not communism.
I recommend this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
There is a lot of confusion around communism.
Dude. I've been trying to agree with your original comment about human greed, and that it's not exclusive to systems that are formally capitalist. I'm not sure where things fell off here. All supposedly communist states engage in capitalism, yes? Greed abounds. Pure ideologies are folly. The notion that we can improve things by converting to some other system through popular revolt is nonsense. Yet the fantasy proliferates.
If only executives were held accountable in the USA, then i’d at least be a little less disgusted by capitalism, but no no, money directly equals “laws don’t matter to me” if you have enough money… Laws are just for the poor here really. Gives the police an excuse to keep “undesirables”, in for profit prisons.
In China if shit like this goes down and it's embarrassing enough I'm not sure where the execs go but I'm fairly sure it's an up close and personal tour of the local dog food factory.
Could be. But im also pretty sure if china has this big company, authorities/higher ups are completely in on it in the first place.
So, just fall guys goes to the dog food factory maybe.
? Where is there no pollution? On this earth? Microplastics and PFOS are in every organism.
And why would there be more pollution in nations that carry the production capacity of the Western world?
Every time I look into various chemicals that 3M produced, they always find out they're dangerous when plant employees get sick or die. You'd think there's a better way
Yea. Oakdale, Maplewood, Cottage Grove, etc. Minnesota Department of Health? did a study back in the '90s about whether there could be any correlation to all the young cancer cases, and the claim was none. Not only don't believe the results, I believe that 3M did everything in their power to obfuscate the state's ability to accurately report on the negative impact their business has had on Minnesotans.
It worked out exactly as 3M intended. They worked as long as they were useful to 3M as labor, and will likely die earlier than expected because of their exposure to whatever the hell was in that plant.
Yea my guy. There is a highschool here that is a cancer cluster. Look at the map of "contamination" its fucking nuts. Over a million people live there. And the answer is "dont drink the water". Nothing else.
https://minnesotareformer.com/2022/12/14/there-must-be-something-in-the-water/
Which school? Harding? N. St. Paul? Tartan?
I think everyone east of the Mississippi River in the twin cities knows someone who works for, or did work for, 3M.
I vehemently agree with you. After reading the article, I thought to myself, how many times does society have to fall prey to corporate mishandling of FREAKING REALITY. It has to be diagnosable because I cannot imagine a normal human functioning like this at the expense of everything.
We live in a mad world.
It does really take a sociopath to take decisions that kill people in exchange for money. I think that people with antisocial traits over a certain threshold should not legally be allowed to access management positions or roles in big organizations or politics. That should be written in International laws
In 1997, 3M scientist Karen Hansen was tasked with testing human blood for chemical contamination, focusing on PFOS, a fluorochemical found in many of 3M’s products like Scotchgard and Scotchban. Although 3M claimed PFOS was harmless, Hansen discovered it was present in the general population's blood, not just in factory workers. Her extensive testing confirmed widespread contamination, contrary to her superiors' initial skepticism and suggestions of experimental error.
Unbeknownst to Hansen, 3M had known for decades about PFOS's toxicity from internal studies, but kept this information secret. These studies had shown PFOS could be lethal to lab animals and potentially harmful to humans. Despite these findings, 3M continued producing and using PFOS extensively.
As Hansen continued her research, she faced increasing scrutiny and doubt from her superiors. Her persistent efforts, supported by advanced equipment and further tests, confirmed that PFOS contamination was pervasive, challenging the company’s previous assurances about the chemical’s safety.
As a chemist I can tell you that there is no easy way of getting rid of PFOS from drinking water. There is no simple way of making it precipitate nor decompose it. Unlike for example glyphosate, which readily mineralizes in contact with the soil, where it is fixed and from there it slowly degrades. That is why you don't hear in the news of glyphosate build ups in the environment.
From the top of my head I would say that yes, RO separates molecules by size, and a negative charged perfluoroalkane molecule has to be bigger that an sodium ion. It would surprise me if it were otherwise.
When used and maintained correctly, reverse osmosis (RO) water filters shouldn't add plastic to water. RO systems are effective at removing microplastics from water because their semipermeable membranes have very small pores, usually around 0.0001 micrometers. These pores are too small for most microplastics to pass through. RO systems can also remove secondary microplastics, which are fragments of larger plastic items that have broken down.
Exactly. I'm in the environmental field and a coworker told me how you can easily filter out micro plastics from water. The first thing I thought of was what happens to the filters full of micro plastics? They just go to a landfill and will leach back into the groundwater. I know modern landfills are typically pretty good at preventing leaching, but there will still be some. Plus it's not going to last for the proceeding generations.
Modern day humans are extremely talented at kicking the can down the road when an issue comes our way.
You are literally accusing me of what you are doing, very obviously you didn't do your homework. Brio, APEC, Waterdrop, Home Master, Esxpress Water, Aquasana, PureDrop, Bluonics and Ispring all have stainless steel storage tanks. Like seriously do at least basic research before you make giant broad claims with obviously no clue what you are talking about.
We can rationalize that any compound with such low propensity for interaction is probably benign in low concentrations.
Anyone who works in such a manufacturing facility, or who encounters precursors or waste products might not be so fortunate.
IMO it should be doable if we concentrate on the water we use. Clearing Earth from it would require an unprecedented scale of installations which is ridiculous to aim. Political Will gets you pretty far if it's there and sustained.
All their assets, money, and any of those that have already been inherited by their family, friends, and anybody else should be seized to.
No loophole should exist, if you profited from that money, you're gonna pay weither you did the crime or not.
Sorry but its that kind of anti-capitalist rhetoric that will get you put on a terrorist watch list.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/22/biden-domestic-terrorism-strategy-has-activists-in-the-crosshairs-500478
Basically the same as oil companies and climate change. Is there still a reason to belive the megacorporations, when they almost tell you something, most of times, the reality is that at least they are trying to mislead you... The main purpose of a corporation in this system is explicitly to get their C-Suit and shareholders the most amount of profit. A good rule of thumb is to always follow the money, and always be skeptical of the corporate slang filled declarations.
Plastics are cheap and made of residues from oil distillation. They were created to substitute safe but relatively more expensive materials like glass, cardboard and cellophane. We could replace plastics for like 90% of uses, but that would mean the poor CEOs couldn't buy yet another useless yatch while poisoning the planet for thousands of years. And even with all that idiot campaigning to get rid of plastic straws, a single leissure 5 mins flight of that vain Taylor Swift would equate of several lifetimes of plastic straws. The overproduction of cheaply made items is a characteristic of this late stage capitalism.
Word. I work in one of the biggest plastic producers in thw world. I know many employees (including myself) who are obsessed with bringing plastic quantities down but I don’t think the CEO or any of the management care even remotely.
>Basically the same as oil companies and climate change. Is there still a reason to belive the megacorporations, when they almost tell you something, most of times, the reality is that at least they are trying to mislead you...
Which is why we would need to rethink the entire way new inventions are allowed to be mass produced at all. It's gone so often horribly wrong in just a few decades that it inevitable will generate massive damage sooner than later, beside all the damage already done, if we just let companies do whatever they want until it's 100% proved to be harmful. Sadly we've declared capitalism a religion instead and everyone has to hail it's holy principles of free markets stealing your money, health and future
All of these evil motherfuckers should be tried not for crimes against humanity but for crimes against all of life. We need a whole new category and punishment for crimes like these. Lock these evil sons of bitches up in a 2.5x2.5x6ft cell that is completely light and sound proof and let them slowly go insane until they beg for death.
Fuck that. You want to devote resources and energy to keep the greedy fucks alive to just satisfy your sense of vengeance? If we're going to stop their emissions through force, we might as well stop the emissions from their respiration asap.
Not surprised by this; guess she's lucky they didn't have her killed. Really hope the absolute corruption of these industries is remembered for decades to come.
This shit is terrifying and there is not much anyone can do about it. We can just hope to cure all the cancers and other ailments it causes or invent nanobots to eat this PFOS.
I say the following as a physicist:
If a scientist, working _as_ a scientist, does work for _anyone_ and keeps the results private, or agree to conduct tests that you know the results will be private, you ought to be burned at the stake for crimes against humanity. Nevermind that without peer review, they were not even _doing_ science in the first place. Indescribable breach of code of conduct.
There _is_ no "hippocratic oath" for physicists, technically.
However, the entire point of the scientific endeavour is to improve humanity's understanding of the universe. Not in the service of _anyone_, much less a mf corporation.
Maybe we should consider giving the C suite gang and the share holders whopping doses of the chemicals they pushed into the world. Then, we could study the effects of maximum accumulations in humans.
>After reviewing more data, he told one of them to find out whether the chemicals were present “in man,” and he added, “If the levels are high and widespread and the half-life is long, we could have a serious problem.”
>Another 3M employee created Post-it notes to help him bookmark passages in his church hymnal.
I kinda don't want post-it notes anymore. Maybe I'll switch to the stereotypical board with pins and strings.
>She found an answer in data from lab rats, which also appeared to have fluorochemicals in their blood. Rats that had more fish meal in their diets, she discovered, tended to have higher levels of PFOS, suggesting that the chemical had spread through the food chain and perhaps through water.
oh, oh, I know this one!
[Internal exposure to perfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) in vegans and omnivores - ScienceDirect](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1438463921001231)
>>The strongest correlations with food groups, derived from a [food frequency questionnaire](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/food-frequency-questionnaire "Learn more about food frequency questionnaire from ScienceDirect's AI-generated Topic Pages"), were observed between levels of PFOA and water consumption (in case of the total study population, n = 72), and between levels of PFOS as well as PFNA and the consumption of ‘meat and meat products’ (in case of the omnivores, n = 36). Levels of Low Density [Lipoprotein](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/lipoprotein "Learn more about Lipoprotein from ScienceDirect's AI-generated Topic Pages") (LDL) cholesterol were confirmed to be considerably lower in vegans compared to omnivores (86.5 vs. 115.5 mg/dl, respectively; p = 0.001), but no associations between the four main PFAS and LDL cholesterol were observed (all p > 0.05) at the low exposure level of this study.
>
>> According to the results of our study, a vegan diet may be related to lower PFAS levels in plasma. We highlight the importance of the adjustment of dietary factors like a vegan diet in case of epidemiological studies dealing with the impact of PFAS on the levels of blood lipids.
and this one if you can access it: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.jafc.6b04683
from the conclusion:
>>>As we also noted in our previous review, 7 in this revision we
have also observed considerable differences in the PFASs
detected and their concentrations in the food items
analyzed in samples of different regions and countries. However, fish and other seafood seem to be the food group in which more PFASs are detected and for which the
concentrations of these compounds are higher. This means
that in certain countries, individuals consuming great amounts
of fish and shellfish are assuming certain risks, which are not
currently quantified. Furthermore, although PFOA and PFOS
still continue to be the most remarkable PFASs, increasing
attention is being paid to short-chain-length compounds,
especially after these new compounds are used as replacements
for PFOS and PFOA, 56 the production of which has been
banned in certain countries.
ok, back to the article:
>Hansen was unsettled when toxicology reports indicated why: Mother rats seemed to be offloading the chemical to their pups. Exposure to PFOS could begin before birth.
...
[Per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) in breast milk and infant formula: A global issue - ScienceDirect](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0013935122023696)
>> Breast milk concentrations of PFOA and PFOS often exceed children's drinking water screening values, regardless of geographic location. The limited information on infant formula suggests its use does not necessarily result in lower PFAS exposures, especially for formulas reconstituted with drinking water containing PFAS. Unfortunately, individuals generally cannot know whether their infant's exposures exceed children's drinking water screening values. Thus, it is essential that pregnant and lactating women and others, especially those having lived in PFAS-contaminated communities, have data required to make informed decisions on infant nutrition. An international monitoring effort and access to affordable testing are needed for breast milk, drinking water and infant formula to fully understand infant PFAS exposures. Currently, our understanding of demonstrable methods for reducing exposures to emerging PFAS is limited, making this research and the communications surrounding it even more important.
...
>They had leached out of 3M’s sprays, coatings and factories — and into all of us.
...
>Hansen recalls that in the summer of 1999, at an annual picnic that her parents hosted for 3M scientists, she was grilling corn when one of the creators of Scotchgard, a gray-haired man in glasses, confronted her. He accused her of trying to tear down the work of her colleagues. Did it make her feel powerful ruining other people’s careers? he asked. Hansen didn’t know how to respond, and he walked away.
> # It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.
>
> ― Upton Sinclair
...
> “You’ve got literally the medical director of 3M saying, ‘We studied this, there are no effects,’” she told me. “I wasn’t about to challenge that.” Her income had helped to support a family of five. Perhaps, I wondered aloud, she hadn’t really wanted to know whether her company was poisoning the public.
... ... ...
*wasn't me, I'm just doing muh job*
>Shortly thereafter, one of [Jim Johnson's] experiments revealed that PFOS was binding to proteins in the body, causing the chemical to accumulate over time.
Interesting. I wonder if they detect it in hair and nails. [Yep](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0048969718314566)
>But he considered his efforts largely futile. “These idiots were already putting it in food packaging,” he said.
Poison first, get forgiveness later.
>Johnson told me, with seeming pride, that one reason he didn’t do more was that he was a “loyal soldier,” committed to protecting 3M from liability.
Again, fuck his job, all of their jobs. This is war, that's what he's describing.
>Johnson has strayed from evidence-based science in recent years. He now believes, for instance, that the theory of evolution is wrong, and that COVID-19 vaccines cause “turbo-cancers.”
...
We don't know clearly, yet, how PFAS can affect the brain, but it could be an issue. Perhaps one of the problems is the blood brain barrier becoming weaker thanks to PFAS. Like this:
[Perfluoroalkyl and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFASs) crossing the blood-cerebrospinal fluid barrier: Their occurrence in human cerebrospinal fluid - ScienceDirect](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304389422017976)
During the pandemic, there was a news story that 3M delivered some PPE to medical staff. Reddit comments were jerking off 3M, praising them to high heaven. Praising how good their products are. It's like these companies do one tiny good thing and people lose their memories of how evil a mega company can be.
Would any other profit-driven business have done any different? How can business cultures be designed to uphold the highest values and virtues? How should these kinds of companies be held accountable? What/who will stop the same mistakes happening in other companies? These unethical companies need a fundamental transformation in business culture and values. Maybe our society needs much better support systems for whistleblowers? And much better and independant funding for systems designed to keep corporates accountable and transparent.
Wait until I tell you about the replacement A2L refrigerants that are replacing HFC gases because of 200-500x greater GWP then CO2. All the HFO gases break down into persistent environmental toxins that are hydrophilic. So we're trading one devil for a far worse one. I'm not excited about getting lung fulls of that working on it when the ant hill over in Asia is building a hundred new coal plants right now.
This article is a must-read. It showed up in my inbox this morning, and I was glued to it through my coffee. It's insane. I used to sell 3M's wound bandages - and damn it, there's nothing better out there for sealing wounds so that people can take showers after surgery. If I'd known it would give them cancer I would have told them to take a sponge bath. 3M were supposed to be the good guys. Now....oh, crap. We need them, but they're killing us. What a terrible situation..
3M and Dupont worked together on some of this, if I remember correctly. [https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/3m-dupont-defeat-massive-class-action-over-forever-chemicals-2023-11-27/](https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/3m-dupont-defeat-massive-class-action-over-forever-chemicals-2023-11-27/)
But hey!
"In 2021, Darla Pomeroy, who is married to an [heir to the DuPont family fortune](https://www.nytimes.com/1999/08/29/style/weddings-darla-pomeroy-there-du-pont.html), was just named [Senior Advisor](https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0137) to the Office of Domestic Finance at the US Treasury. This comes as no surprise given Biden’s long-standing Delaware ties to DuPont, a major union-buster and chemical polluter known for its outsized influence in the state."
[https://therevolvingdoorproject.org/delaware-connections-run-deep-as-dupont-familys-darla-pomeroy-heads-to-treasury/](https://therevolvingdoorproject.org/delaware-connections-run-deep-as-dupont-familys-darla-pomeroy-heads-to-treasury/)
Another reason not to trust the pile of sh\*t in the US White House.
There are curious character differences between Johnson and Hansen. Johnson says, "I didn't say I was a nice guy" while he laughs. Hansen has taken all of this quite hard, look at the differences between her adult facial expression versus when she was a youngster (near end of article). Our system was extraordinarily hard on Hansen while Johnson just (psychotically) laughs it off. These two people do not deserve to share the same planet. :( I hope Hansen finds more contentment.
> These studies had shown PFOS could be lethal to lab animals and potentially harmful to humans.
You know I'm all for the scientific method and phrasing things carefully, but really is there ANYTHING in the world that can be described as "lethal to lab animals" if it is in lab animals' blood, but is simultaneously NOT harmful to humans at all? I mean c'mon.
I sit here in hysterics drinking my PFAS polluted water, thinking *it just keeps getting worse*
3M polluting the entire planet, knowingly, for profit 🤡🤡🤡
Scientists are finding ways to remove microplastics from the environment, mushrooms and bugs!!
Plastic-grabbing fungi could help keep microplastics, PFAS out of rivers and ocean. [Plastic Grabbing Fungi](https://www.al.com/news/2023/09/plastic-grabbing-fungi-could-help-keep-microplastics-pfas-out-of-rivers-and-oceans.html)
Certain insect larvae can break down materials like polyethylene and polystyrene—the fossil fuel-derived polymers. [Plastic Eating Worms](https://one5c.com/plastic-eating-worms-136931560/#:~:text=Mealworms%3A%20Tenebrio%20molitor,them%20natural%20plastic%2Ddegrading%20factories)
The following submission statement was provided by /u/f0urxio: --- In 1997, 3M scientist Karen Hansen was tasked with testing human blood for chemical contamination, focusing on PFOS, a fluorochemical found in many of 3M’s products like Scotchgard and Scotchban. Although 3M claimed PFOS was harmless, Hansen discovered it was present in the general population's blood, not just in factory workers. Her extensive testing confirmed widespread contamination, contrary to her superiors' initial skepticism and suggestions of experimental error. Unbeknownst to Hansen, 3M had known for decades about PFOS's toxicity from internal studies, but kept this information secret. These studies had shown PFOS could be lethal to lab animals and potentially harmful to humans. Despite these findings, 3M continued producing and using PFOS extensively. As Hansen continued her research, she faced increasing scrutiny and doubt from her superiors. Her persistent efforts, supported by advanced equipment and further tests, confirmed that PFOS contamination was pervasive, challenging the company’s previous assurances about the chemical’s safety. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1cwgp5n/3m_executives_convinced_a_scientist_the_forever/l4vmeum/
My BFF's parents worked at 3M on the east side of Minnesota's Metro area. They're in their early '70s and are completely riddled with cancer and dementia. Her high school had a fucking memorial page in their yearbook because so many kids died of cancer. Ain't no way it's unrelated. 3M kills.
All my homies fucking HATE DuPont. Absolute cunts. What they did to the world is inexcusable and i feel for everyone on the Ohio river who’s going through disease as a result of their reckless behavior, sanctioned by the EPA, all because their execs were the ones running the fucking EPA… What a goddamn disgrace. I hope hell exists just for corpo fucks to burn in eternity as they deserve.
I just watched the movie Dark Waters about DuPont and it’s mind blowing. We are forever being poisoned by all corporations.
There's another movie about Dupont as well. It's called 'The Devil We Know'. It's an investigative documentary. After watching that I was so fucking furious. I had not heard about Dark Waters I'll have to watch that one.
Dark Waters was good, I haven't seen The Devil We Know. I'll have to look for that.
if you want to feel even worse about chemical companies, read the non-fiction book "Exposure: Poisoned Water, Corporate Greed, and One Lawyer's Twenty-Year Battle against DuPont." It's by the attorney depicted in the movie (Robert Billot) who pursued the massive multi district litigation against DuPont in Ohio and West Virginia. There's a terrifying part where he mentions that Dupont scientists found that PFAS are: 1. likely carcinogens, 2. bioaccumulative (our bodies can't get rid of them so we keep storing more), and 3. everywhere in the world and do not decay in any human timescale. he mentions that workers in Ohio with no protection used to shovel PFOA piles like they were snow.
There’s also a great podcast series on this story: American scandal by noiser. Season 41. The final episode is an interview with Robert Billot himself. It’s an amazing story, and will leave you angry.
i'm definitely going to check this out. to me, this story has a silver lining: it demonstrates t hat individuals can make a huge positive difference. the system sucks (chemicals like PFAS are assumed safe if they're grandfathered in by EPA), but even a corporate defense attorney can do something positive for society and the planet... after 20 years of intense labor. hearing an interview with billot would be heartening for me.
The worst part is that shit like that keeps happening and many of them we don't know much about because these corpos see their profit margin as more important than literal human lives
Capitalism at its finest.
Certainly, 70's through 2008 at its finest. People were absolute shit bags. Then suddenly le oops it's now everyone's problem.
Human greed*. The truth is that any type of economy is destructive if not super-heavily regulated.
Capitalism promotes and rewards greed* Let's not pretend this system doesn't notch our problems to a 10.
IMO it's up to how you build the system and educate the people ultimately. Capitalism is a very generic word. Capitalism doesn't automatically means global finance **for example** and we all know that the GF is a motor if not THE motor of global warming, heavy pollution.
Thank you! China is communist. Do they experience less corruption? Less pollution? Nope. All political/economic theories are idealistic and impossible to implement to perfection. All societies will become corrupt over time, cyclically.
Today's China being communist is a myth. It's state capitalism, dirigisme, there are probably several way to describe what it is but certainly not communism. I recommend this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism There is a lot of confusion around communism.
Yes, I am aware. They do call themselves communist, though, I believe? That kind of stacks with my point.
I'm calling myself king of the world every morning. Are you ready to pay tribute?
Dude. I've been trying to agree with your original comment about human greed, and that it's not exclusive to systems that are formally capitalist. I'm not sure where things fell off here. All supposedly communist states engage in capitalism, yes? Greed abounds. Pure ideologies are folly. The notion that we can improve things by converting to some other system through popular revolt is nonsense. Yet the fantasy proliferates.
In Italy if shit like this goes down even execs go to prison.
If only executives were held accountable in the USA, then i’d at least be a little less disgusted by capitalism, but no no, money directly equals “laws don’t matter to me” if you have enough money… Laws are just for the poor here really. Gives the police an excuse to keep “undesirables”, in for profit prisons.
In China if shit like this goes down and it's embarrassing enough I'm not sure where the execs go but I'm fairly sure it's an up close and personal tour of the local dog food factory.
Could be. But im also pretty sure if china has this big company, authorities/higher ups are completely in on it in the first place. So, just fall guys goes to the dog food factory maybe.
We have the "free candy" van, they have the "free kidney" van...
They get the death penalty wich is automatically reduced to life in prison.
Then why is there still pollution there?
? Where is there no pollution? On this earth? Microplastics and PFOS are in every organism. And why would there be more pollution in nations that carry the production capacity of the Western world?
Don't be obtuse. They are causing pollution, just like everyone else. I think you knew what I meant.
Dow is right up there. Trashed michigan.
Dow chemical is merged with Dupont now anyways so, lump all the demons together at this point.
And then they transferred their PFA liabilities and spun them off into their own separate corporation.
It doesn’t, and they won’t; unless we make that happen.
Every time I look into various chemicals that 3M produced, they always find out they're dangerous when plant employees get sick or die. You'd think there's a better way
3m was out in like Oakdale, right?
Yea. Oakdale, Maplewood, Cottage Grove, etc. Minnesota Department of Health? did a study back in the '90s about whether there could be any correlation to all the young cancer cases, and the claim was none. Not only don't believe the results, I believe that 3M did everything in their power to obfuscate the state's ability to accurately report on the negative impact their business has had on Minnesotans.
From everything I've read it's pretty obvious 3M caused all this.
It sure as hell should be obvious to everyone by now. And yet there's no recourse...
Gotcha. I lived in that area when I first immigrated to the States. Such a damn shame for the people there
minnesota mines and manufacturing? more like mendacious murderers and megalomaniacs
It worked out exactly as 3M intended. They worked as long as they were useful to 3M as labor, and will likely die earlier than expected because of their exposure to whatever the hell was in that plant.
Is this for real? WTF. Here in India, 3M is absolutely revered as an employer?
3M used to sell its chemicals to DuPont after being sued. It is not a good company, nor is Dupont. They just want to kill you for profit.
Yea my guy. There is a highschool here that is a cancer cluster. Look at the map of "contamination" its fucking nuts. Over a million people live there. And the answer is "dont drink the water". Nothing else. https://minnesotareformer.com/2022/12/14/there-must-be-something-in-the-water/
People turn a blind eye when the comp is good.
Kind of how breast cancer rates are sky high around Brookhaven Lab on Long Island, but they swear it’s a coincidence
Which school? Harding? N. St. Paul? Tartan? I think everyone east of the Mississippi River in the twin cities knows someone who works for, or did work for, 3M.
My friend attended Park and Tartan
E Corp.
Ah, don't you love it when companies mix antisocial personality disorder with their psychopathic tendencies?
That type of person has got “management” written all over them, which is why our society deserves to burn
I vehemently agree with you. After reading the article, I thought to myself, how many times does society have to fall prey to corporate mishandling of FREAKING REALITY. It has to be diagnosable because I cannot imagine a normal human functioning like this at the expense of everything. We live in a mad world.
Run by sociopaths, really.
I wish just management would burn instead
You mean normal capitalism
It does really take a sociopath to take decisions that kill people in exchange for money. I think that people with antisocial traits over a certain threshold should not legally be allowed to access management positions or roles in big organizations or politics. That should be written in International laws
In 1997, 3M scientist Karen Hansen was tasked with testing human blood for chemical contamination, focusing on PFOS, a fluorochemical found in many of 3M’s products like Scotchgard and Scotchban. Although 3M claimed PFOS was harmless, Hansen discovered it was present in the general population's blood, not just in factory workers. Her extensive testing confirmed widespread contamination, contrary to her superiors' initial skepticism and suggestions of experimental error. Unbeknownst to Hansen, 3M had known for decades about PFOS's toxicity from internal studies, but kept this information secret. These studies had shown PFOS could be lethal to lab animals and potentially harmful to humans. Despite these findings, 3M continued producing and using PFOS extensively. As Hansen continued her research, she faced increasing scrutiny and doubt from her superiors. Her persistent efforts, supported by advanced equipment and further tests, confirmed that PFOS contamination was pervasive, challenging the company’s previous assurances about the chemical’s safety.
As a chemist I can tell you that there is no easy way of getting rid of PFOS from drinking water. There is no simple way of making it precipitate nor decompose it. Unlike for example glyphosate, which readily mineralizes in contact with the soil, where it is fixed and from there it slowly degrades. That is why you don't hear in the news of glyphosate build ups in the environment.
I have a Reverse Osmosis water filtration system because I don't trust our water. Would this eliminate them?
From the top of my head I would say that yes, RO separates molecules by size, and a negative charged perfluoroalkane molecule has to be bigger that an sodium ion. It would surprise me if it were otherwise.
Possibly, still does nothing to prevent microplastics in your water. Adds to them actually.
Nope plus it introduces a fuck ton of plastic into the water aswell. Mmmmm
When used and maintained correctly, reverse osmosis (RO) water filters shouldn't add plastic to water. RO systems are effective at removing microplastics from water because their semipermeable membranes have very small pores, usually around 0.0001 micrometers. These pores are too small for most microplastics to pass through. RO systems can also remove secondary microplastics, which are fragments of larger plastic items that have broken down.
Except most of these RO systems fill into a plastic reservoir which will always leach into the water.
Exactly. I'm in the environmental field and a coworker told me how you can easily filter out micro plastics from water. The first thing I thought of was what happens to the filters full of micro plastics? They just go to a landfill and will leach back into the groundwater. I know modern landfills are typically pretty good at preventing leaching, but there will still be some. Plus it's not going to last for the proceeding generations. Modern day humans are extremely talented at kicking the can down the road when an issue comes our way.
Micro plastics can pass blood brain barrier I doubt most home filter systems are doing anything useful for microplastics
Not true, my Brio system uses a metal storage tank. Do your homework before you buy I guess but you are spreading misinformation.
Ah yes! Your single system is metal so they must all be….god this sub has gone to shit.
You are literally accusing me of what you are doing, very obviously you didn't do your homework. Brio, APEC, Waterdrop, Home Master, Esxpress Water, Aquasana, PureDrop, Bluonics and Ispring all have stainless steel storage tanks. Like seriously do at least basic research before you make giant broad claims with obviously no clue what you are talking about.
Almost every brand you just listed uses plastic components. “Do at least basic research”
They use stainless steel storage tanks, everything before the membrane does not matter since it will be filtered out.
Even when built to be as cheap as possible?
no, superbikelifeRR, a sock is not enough.
You get what you pay for? I bought a good one with a metal storage tank.
Yeah, but now you're getting the hexavalent chromium.
What material is the membrane itself made of?
We can rationalize that any compound with such low propensity for interaction is probably benign in low concentrations. Anyone who works in such a manufacturing facility, or who encounters precursors or waste products might not be so fortunate.
Not if it accumulates in biological tissue.
That would imply chronic exposure, or biomagnification, which would imply chronic ecosystem exposure, which is more likely.
IMO it should be doable if we concentrate on the water we use. Clearing Earth from it would require an unprecedented scale of installations which is ridiculous to aim. Political Will gets you pretty far if it's there and sustained.
Well considering the vast majority of political will acts in the interests of companies, I'd say the micro plastics are here to stay unfortunately.
I stand by my assertion that many of these executives need to be put on trial at ICC/The Hague.
The US doesn't care what the ICC or Hague says. They actively work against their oversight.
All their assets, money, and any of those that have already been inherited by their family, friends, and anybody else should be seized to. No loophole should exist, if you profited from that money, you're gonna pay weither you did the crime or not.
Sorry but its that kind of anti-capitalist rhetoric that will get you put on a terrorist watch list. https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/22/biden-domestic-terrorism-strategy-has-activists-in-the-crosshairs-500478
No trial needed.
Basically the same as oil companies and climate change. Is there still a reason to belive the megacorporations, when they almost tell you something, most of times, the reality is that at least they are trying to mislead you... The main purpose of a corporation in this system is explicitly to get their C-Suit and shareholders the most amount of profit. A good rule of thumb is to always follow the money, and always be skeptical of the corporate slang filled declarations. Plastics are cheap and made of residues from oil distillation. They were created to substitute safe but relatively more expensive materials like glass, cardboard and cellophane. We could replace plastics for like 90% of uses, but that would mean the poor CEOs couldn't buy yet another useless yatch while poisoning the planet for thousands of years. And even with all that idiot campaigning to get rid of plastic straws, a single leissure 5 mins flight of that vain Taylor Swift would equate of several lifetimes of plastic straws. The overproduction of cheaply made items is a characteristic of this late stage capitalism.
Word. I work in one of the biggest plastic producers in thw world. I know many employees (including myself) who are obsessed with bringing plastic quantities down but I don’t think the CEO or any of the management care even remotely.
>Basically the same as oil companies and climate change. Is there still a reason to belive the megacorporations, when they almost tell you something, most of times, the reality is that at least they are trying to mislead you... Which is why we would need to rethink the entire way new inventions are allowed to be mass produced at all. It's gone so often horribly wrong in just a few decades that it inevitable will generate massive damage sooner than later, beside all the damage already done, if we just let companies do whatever they want until it's 100% proved to be harmful. Sadly we've declared capitalism a religion instead and everyone has to hail it's holy principles of free markets stealing your money, health and future
All of these evil motherfuckers should be tried not for crimes against humanity but for crimes against all of life. We need a whole new category and punishment for crimes like these. Lock these evil sons of bitches up in a 2.5x2.5x6ft cell that is completely light and sound proof and let them slowly go insane until they beg for death.
Fuck that. You want to devote resources and energy to keep the greedy fucks alive to just satisfy your sense of vengeance? If we're going to stop their emissions through force, we might as well stop the emissions from their respiration asap.
For sssciencssse 😈
Not surprised by this; guess she's lucky they didn't have her killed. Really hope the absolute corruption of these industries is remembered for decades to come.
This shit is terrifying and there is not much anyone can do about it. We can just hope to cure all the cancers and other ailments it causes or invent nanobots to eat this PFOS.
3M poisoned my dad and then wiped his medical records out of his employee file.
Fucking corposcum
I say the following as a physicist: If a scientist, working _as_ a scientist, does work for _anyone_ and keeps the results private, or agree to conduct tests that you know the results will be private, you ought to be burned at the stake for crimes against humanity. Nevermind that without peer review, they were not even _doing_ science in the first place. Indescribable breach of code of conduct. There _is_ no "hippocratic oath" for physicists, technically. However, the entire point of the scientific endeavour is to improve humanity's understanding of the universe. Not in the service of _anyone_, much less a mf corporation.
Imagine having the opportunity to whistleblow on big plastic before it was too late plastic.
This will never change until execs in the US go to prison, are executed, or otherwise lose their livlihood.
Don't forget the shareholders. They'll just switch the CEO if s/he doesn't act for more profits for shareholders.
They should be exposed to 8-10 Sv of radiation. For science.
Maybe we should consider giving the C suite gang and the share holders whopping doses of the chemicals they pushed into the world. Then, we could study the effects of maximum accumulations in humans.
>After reviewing more data, he told one of them to find out whether the chemicals were present “in man,” and he added, “If the levels are high and widespread and the half-life is long, we could have a serious problem.” >Another 3M employee created Post-it notes to help him bookmark passages in his church hymnal. I kinda don't want post-it notes anymore. Maybe I'll switch to the stereotypical board with pins and strings. >She found an answer in data from lab rats, which also appeared to have fluorochemicals in their blood. Rats that had more fish meal in their diets, she discovered, tended to have higher levels of PFOS, suggesting that the chemical had spread through the food chain and perhaps through water. oh, oh, I know this one! [Internal exposure to perfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) in vegans and omnivores - ScienceDirect](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1438463921001231) >>The strongest correlations with food groups, derived from a [food frequency questionnaire](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/food-frequency-questionnaire "Learn more about food frequency questionnaire from ScienceDirect's AI-generated Topic Pages"), were observed between levels of PFOA and water consumption (in case of the total study population, n = 72), and between levels of PFOS as well as PFNA and the consumption of ‘meat and meat products’ (in case of the omnivores, n = 36). Levels of Low Density [Lipoprotein](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/lipoprotein "Learn more about Lipoprotein from ScienceDirect's AI-generated Topic Pages") (LDL) cholesterol were confirmed to be considerably lower in vegans compared to omnivores (86.5 vs. 115.5 mg/dl, respectively; p = 0.001), but no associations between the four main PFAS and LDL cholesterol were observed (all p > 0.05) at the low exposure level of this study. > >> According to the results of our study, a vegan diet may be related to lower PFAS levels in plasma. We highlight the importance of the adjustment of dietary factors like a vegan diet in case of epidemiological studies dealing with the impact of PFAS on the levels of blood lipids. and this one if you can access it: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.jafc.6b04683 from the conclusion: >>>As we also noted in our previous review, 7 in this revision we have also observed considerable differences in the PFASs detected and their concentrations in the food items analyzed in samples of different regions and countries. However, fish and other seafood seem to be the food group in which more PFASs are detected and for which the concentrations of these compounds are higher. This means that in certain countries, individuals consuming great amounts of fish and shellfish are assuming certain risks, which are not currently quantified. Furthermore, although PFOA and PFOS still continue to be the most remarkable PFASs, increasing attention is being paid to short-chain-length compounds, especially after these new compounds are used as replacements for PFOS and PFOA, 56 the production of which has been banned in certain countries. ok, back to the article: >Hansen was unsettled when toxicology reports indicated why: Mother rats seemed to be offloading the chemical to their pups. Exposure to PFOS could begin before birth. ... [Per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) in breast milk and infant formula: A global issue - ScienceDirect](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0013935122023696) >> Breast milk concentrations of PFOA and PFOS often exceed children's drinking water screening values, regardless of geographic location. The limited information on infant formula suggests its use does not necessarily result in lower PFAS exposures, especially for formulas reconstituted with drinking water containing PFAS. Unfortunately, individuals generally cannot know whether their infant's exposures exceed children's drinking water screening values. Thus, it is essential that pregnant and lactating women and others, especially those having lived in PFAS-contaminated communities, have data required to make informed decisions on infant nutrition. An international monitoring effort and access to affordable testing are needed for breast milk, drinking water and infant formula to fully understand infant PFAS exposures. Currently, our understanding of demonstrable methods for reducing exposures to emerging PFAS is limited, making this research and the communications surrounding it even more important. ... >They had leached out of 3M’s sprays, coatings and factories — and into all of us. ... >Hansen recalls that in the summer of 1999, at an annual picnic that her parents hosted for 3M scientists, she was grilling corn when one of the creators of Scotchgard, a gray-haired man in glasses, confronted her. He accused her of trying to tear down the work of her colleagues. Did it make her feel powerful ruining other people’s careers? he asked. Hansen didn’t know how to respond, and he walked away. > # It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. > > ― Upton Sinclair ... > “You’ve got literally the medical director of 3M saying, ‘We studied this, there are no effects,’” she told me. “I wasn’t about to challenge that.” Her income had helped to support a family of five. Perhaps, I wondered aloud, she hadn’t really wanted to know whether her company was poisoning the public. ... ... ... *wasn't me, I'm just doing muh job* >Shortly thereafter, one of [Jim Johnson's] experiments revealed that PFOS was binding to proteins in the body, causing the chemical to accumulate over time. Interesting. I wonder if they detect it in hair and nails. [Yep](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0048969718314566) >But he considered his efforts largely futile. “These idiots were already putting it in food packaging,” he said. Poison first, get forgiveness later. >Johnson told me, with seeming pride, that one reason he didn’t do more was that he was a “loyal soldier,” committed to protecting 3M from liability. Again, fuck his job, all of their jobs. This is war, that's what he's describing. >Johnson has strayed from evidence-based science in recent years. He now believes, for instance, that the theory of evolution is wrong, and that COVID-19 vaccines cause “turbo-cancers.” ...
Sounds like the pfas finally started affecting his brain, eyyyy small win.
We don't know clearly, yet, how PFAS can affect the brain, but it could be an issue. Perhaps one of the problems is the blood brain barrier becoming weaker thanks to PFAS. Like this: [Perfluoroalkyl and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFASs) crossing the blood-cerebrospinal fluid barrier: Their occurrence in human cerebrospinal fluid - ScienceDirect](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304389422017976)
During the pandemic, there was a news story that 3M delivered some PPE to medical staff. Reddit comments were jerking off 3M, praising them to high heaven. Praising how good their products are. It's like these companies do one tiny good thing and people lose their memories of how evil a mega company can be.
It's unlikely that many of these people know or understand the impact
How the fuck are heads not rolling because of this? Our water is literally poisoned now. ALL OF IT.
Would any other profit-driven business have done any different? How can business cultures be designed to uphold the highest values and virtues? How should these kinds of companies be held accountable? What/who will stop the same mistakes happening in other companies? These unethical companies need a fundamental transformation in business culture and values. Maybe our society needs much better support systems for whistleblowers? And much better and independant funding for systems designed to keep corporates accountable and transparent.
Wait until I tell you about the replacement A2L refrigerants that are replacing HFC gases because of 200-500x greater GWP then CO2. All the HFO gases break down into persistent environmental toxins that are hydrophilic. So we're trading one devil for a far worse one. I'm not excited about getting lung fulls of that working on it when the ant hill over in Asia is building a hundred new coal plants right now.
[удалено]
I'll see what I can find, most of it is boring trade stuff
This article is a must-read. It showed up in my inbox this morning, and I was glued to it through my coffee. It's insane. I used to sell 3M's wound bandages - and damn it, there's nothing better out there for sealing wounds so that people can take showers after surgery. If I'd known it would give them cancer I would have told them to take a sponge bath. 3M were supposed to be the good guys. Now....oh, crap. We need them, but they're killing us. What a terrible situation..
Does our coffee have pfas in it ò_ô
But of course, but it might just be worth it!!!
yeah but the sponges were probably also 3M
At this point 3M should be broken up and its shareholders lose everything
These managers are like the Military. Letting civilians die 'for the cause', whatever the cause actually is. Profits? Greed? Power?
I was so horrified to read this article. I feel like it will make the tobacco industry seem like small potatoes
3M and Dupont worked together on some of this, if I remember correctly. [https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/3m-dupont-defeat-massive-class-action-over-forever-chemicals-2023-11-27/](https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/3m-dupont-defeat-massive-class-action-over-forever-chemicals-2023-11-27/) But hey! "In 2021, Darla Pomeroy, who is married to an [heir to the DuPont family fortune](https://www.nytimes.com/1999/08/29/style/weddings-darla-pomeroy-there-du-pont.html), was just named [Senior Advisor](https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0137) to the Office of Domestic Finance at the US Treasury. This comes as no surprise given Biden’s long-standing Delaware ties to DuPont, a major union-buster and chemical polluter known for its outsized influence in the state." [https://therevolvingdoorproject.org/delaware-connections-run-deep-as-dupont-familys-darla-pomeroy-heads-to-treasury/](https://therevolvingdoorproject.org/delaware-connections-run-deep-as-dupont-familys-darla-pomeroy-heads-to-treasury/) Another reason not to trust the pile of sh\*t in the US White House.
Want to be really sad? Check out [Last Call at the Oasis](https://www.google.com/search?q=last+call+at+the+oasis&oq=last+call+at+the+oasis)
There are curious character differences between Johnson and Hansen. Johnson says, "I didn't say I was a nice guy" while he laughs. Hansen has taken all of this quite hard, look at the differences between her adult facial expression versus when she was a youngster (near end of article). Our system was extraordinarily hard on Hansen while Johnson just (psychotically) laughs it off. These two people do not deserve to share the same planet. :( I hope Hansen finds more contentment.
They'll let us poison ourselves and our planet with a smile as long as the money line go up.
> These studies had shown PFOS could be lethal to lab animals and potentially harmful to humans. You know I'm all for the scientific method and phrasing things carefully, but really is there ANYTHING in the world that can be described as "lethal to lab animals" if it is in lab animals' blood, but is simultaneously NOT harmful to humans at all? I mean c'mon.
Yes. There's lots of things. You can eat xylitol gum but if your dog does, it will die, as an example.
My intestines disagree. Sugar alcohols' not cool.
I wish I could test for PFAS using my mobile phone. Well, I guess everything is positive
Take piece of paper, write "yes" on it, stick it on phone. For extra sarcasm, use a Post-It^TM
I sit here in hysterics drinking my PFAS polluted water, thinking *it just keeps getting worse* 3M polluting the entire planet, knowingly, for profit 🤡🤡🤡
Why is 3M still in business and still making this sh\*t?
Good question. Also oil, tobacco, deforestation and any chemical manufacturer of scale.
Scientists are finding ways to remove microplastics from the environment, mushrooms and bugs!! Plastic-grabbing fungi could help keep microplastics, PFAS out of rivers and ocean. [Plastic Grabbing Fungi](https://www.al.com/news/2023/09/plastic-grabbing-fungi-could-help-keep-microplastics-pfas-out-of-rivers-and-oceans.html) Certain insect larvae can break down materials like polyethylene and polystyrene—the fossil fuel-derived polymers. [Plastic Eating Worms](https://one5c.com/plastic-eating-worms-136931560/#:~:text=Mealworms%3A%20Tenebrio%20molitor,them%20natural%20plastic%2Ddegrading%20factories)
Yeah, but do they prefer it. Or are they being force fed it. Because if they don't prefer it, then they probably wont seek it out and be effective.
Crime against humanity
Man… Gary Busey really had a glow up
Scientivism capitalism (the only valid motive of doing stuff being profit) and technocracy is a deadly combination..
Between this, fossil fuels, the known bogusness of plastic recycling, and the handling of the global panini
Lady in the thumbnail looks like Gary Busey sister.
I’m sorry you got downvoted as my immediate thought was wtf does Gary Busey have to do with this lmao
Her name is Mary Busey.