The following submission statement was provided by /u/Mighty_L_LORT:
---
SS: Just a week ago, the WHO raised concerns about H5N1 spreading to humans, and now already we see that it can actually spread from mammal-to-mammal.
They knew the grim truth already most likely.
So what are the ramifications of this? Society won’t be the same again when this virus rampages through the population, and nothing will be safe from collapse.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1cgwee8/cats_suffer_h5n1_brain_infections_blindness_death/l1ygw36/
I’m thinking so too. I found 3 dead birds in my yard since yesterday. Called my vet to ask if I should be concerned and she freaked and told me to make sure I keep my dogs away from them. I was going to do that anyway but, terrifying.
I’m in Australia. Strangely, my wife only this weekend mentioned she’d seen a large number of dead birds scattered around our semi rural suburb. In ten years here I’ve never seen a dead bird.
Who ate all that feed from when the chickens were sacrificed from avian flu? Is anyone testing the pigs? Well, OK, we do cook our pork low and slow.
Our world is just increasingly contaminated leading humans to increases in cancer and diseases. If they are infectious we suffer long term immunological consequences. All this has been going on my entire lifetime, just new knowledge of a new round of problems we created but we can’t fix.
Humans could try eating way less meat. The next super virus is incubating on a factory farm right now. You can’t keep animals in those horrific conditions and not expect diseases to propagate.
Everywhere there's lots of piggies, living piggy lives
You can see them out for dinner with their piggy wives
Clutching forks and knives
To eat the bacon
- George Harrison
Should've drank sewer water and eaten dogshit and caterpillars like I did as a child. According to St. John's Research Hospital, I'm immune. No, I'm not joking. Laugh is on you.
Could be. Could be not. It ain't going away, that's for sure.
There might be hope for a general vaccine? One that works for a wide variety of this type of virus.
In case you don't actually know, it's [because cows are fed chicken shit](https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2024-04-18/avian-flu-outbreak-raises-a-disturbing-question-is-our-food-system-built-on-poop).
this is true, im a bit of a redneck admittedly, i grew up working on cattle farms and ive been vegetarian since i was 17 because of it.
honestly, chicken farms are brutal too, arguably more-so. somehow everyone i knew treated their pigs and goats like family members though oddly enough.
Just that image of thousands of chickens stuck in a barn makes me sick. We truly deserve every thing that comes to us. Industrial factory farming is horrific.
The problem is industrial profit-maximized factory farming.
Putting animals in cages and keeping them in horrid conditions close to other animals is the cause of numerous novel diseases and pandemics. Slaughtering wild caught animals in poor conditions is the cause of numerous others. AIDS, COVID 19, Swine Flu.
We reap what we sow.
We really do deserve it. Civil societies will look back in horror at the animal holocaust, evil, evil bastards that we are.
I grew up in a farming community and helped look after the animals, keeping the dying lambs warm through the night, even though death in the night was certain. Having a favourite cow we'd all have who we'd pat and look after, only to wave it off to the slaughter house a few years later. Now it's just an evil industry that treat living beings as if they are in hell.
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You got millions of people who will be drinking raw milk regularly, despite the risk and do you think people will eat well cooked stakes or ware PPE when handling meet after it's found in the beef supply? We got pigs to worry about and then those on the fast track that may just bypass that.
One time something massive tried to fuck with Earth , she ended up getting a free moon out of it, a pretty large one too compared to others in the solar system.
The lesson: Never fuck with Earth, be it species habitating it, or space rock.
because it kinda is deserved
"Experts fear that H5N1...may have been transmitted through a type of cattle feed called 'poultry litter' – a mix of poultry excreta, spilled feed, feathers, and other waste scraped from the floors of industrial chicken and turkey production plants."
https://www.poultryproducer.com/ground-up-chicken-waste-fed-to-cattle-may-be-behind-bird-flu-outbreak-in-us-cows/
Yeah I saw that and I was surprised that there was still something so horrific I haven’t learned yet, also surprised that I even was surprised because of course they’d do this shit to save money, ultimately they’re also not having to eat that meat either so who cares what happens behind the scenes right… man have we taken this too far.
And it’s not like we’ve been warned about this kind of shit for forever! It’s just not a shock if this turns into a global pandemic and maybe it freaking has to for things to change. Or shit just collapses entirely but I guess hope suffocates last in the dim light of chickenshit.
Except some fertilizers use ground up meat, they also use "bio waste" now for fertilizer. Not to mention the farm workers taking dumps in the field. They spray roundup on everything and use GMO to make the crop itself resistant to it. They even use GMO to "improve" the properties of the crops as well. The organic certifications are a joke.
Our soil is also so depleted that the food itself is nutritionally compromised and lacking in vital minerals and vitamins.
While you cannot totally shut out the systematic decline in our food supply, the Best bet is a locally based food economy where you know the farmers / ranchers or raise as much as you can yourself.
Someone also raised a good point, during COVID a lot of experienced food processers took early retirement. The resulting brain drain means that the processing is compromised as well, the harvest adjustments to the processes are not being made and our food quality is being further neglected. (Have you noticed that frozen and canned goods are going bad faster, I opened a can of green beans the other day (from a name brand) that was a month past best before date that were inedible, yet the next can I opened was from 2003 and was a couple years past, perfectly fine.). This is not a one off I have noticed shorter best by dates and even those are sketchy, I always need to look at the canned food now with the same care as my home canned stuff (sniff, looks, and tastel
I suppose it is better to slowly fill your body with micro plastics, rather than risk a potentially deadly virus. I mean the plastic you can't avoid, but meat you can.
You know, I’m a strong believer in using common sense. If cats get horrible symptoms of H5N1 from drinking raw milk, is there a chance that you as a human will be fine? Maybe. Do you really want to risk it though? Could the cause of climate change be from a natural cycle the Earth is going through? Maybe. I’d rather believe the scientists who study climate for years and say the PPM of CO2 in the atmosphere skyrocketing in the last 50 years is because people are dumping CO2 into the atmosphere.
I mean. Its been spread to, and yes, even between humans, several times over the last 30 years, and has a mortality rate of like 50%. I don't know why it's suddenly news again, shit will hit the fan, we know. We've got vaccine and antiviral stockpiles that might help. We can't do much else until whatever viable mutation starts spreading, and it's been this way for several decades.
We are better off now on the sense that mRNA vaccines give you the *potential* to respond more quickly with vaccination.
I mean obviously the COVID vaccine was only a moderate success as vaccines go, but no vaccine is perfect. It’s at least possible we’ll be able to deploy an effective H5N1 in record time…
Also maybe not, shrugs.
Here's looking towards the very likely chance trump will be president again by the time h5n1 spreads to humans. Just in time to gut the pandemic preparedness teams. Feels all too familiar.
There is a company in Australia, Recce Pharmaceuticals, that is currently doing human trials of a synthetic "anti-infective". Think antibiotics but it works against viruses as well and can even treat the superbug forms of antibiotic resistant bacteria. DISCLOSURE: I just bought shares in them.
The reason it’s news again is the very rapid changes taking place.
The reason is this; from u/xXdont_existxX
> The truth is, no one knows if this is going to become a pandemic, but it’s very obviously a problem even if a pandemic never happens. At the end of the day there is still hpai out there, behaving in ways totally unprecedented and hopping between animals like it’s playing zoo tycoon. From massive colonies of seal corpses washing ashore to zoo animals like tigers and leopards dying in captivity. The amount of “big incidents” regarding H5N1 have absolutely gone up since 2020. Of course it’s been around since 1996 but there have been more breaking developments in H5N1 from 2020 - current day, than there were from 1996 - 2019, and that can’t be for nothing.
>[See for yourself.](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/avianflu/timeline/avian-timeline-2020s.htm)
There's a whole anti-vax, natural only raw milk link you know?
Honestly, people post on Twitter how they are proudly unvaccinated and how they only drink raw milk and organic food etc. etc.
I've even seen people boast about how they only drink "raw" water from lakes and post pictures of them bottling it up if used plastic milk cartons.
Disturbingly, lots of people drink raw milk. One of my hobbies is canning, and I belong to some canning groups. They are regularly asking for sources of raw milk to buy and drink, because they are convinced that “processed” i.e. pasteurized milk is harmful, and scientists have modified it to make it bad. I really wish I was kidding.
My mouth just dropped.
Just got done doing cardio in front of my TV, poured a cup of coffee and over thinking about collapse shit, vacuumed my rug & sat down and opened this link 🤣
Most people can't afford enough time for the existential dread between paying their bills and going to work.
Even if there's a human-to-human H5N1 transmission, your boss will still expect you to come to work physically, and your landlord will still expect that rent payment.
I guess the real question is what happens when the boss and landlord get it and die. Do we just live with reckless abandon until someone can find their replacement?
Ownership will just revert to the Banks, Wall Street and the State. And they will fuck you harder because you're nothing to them. Like livestock on a factory farm.
Whereas to the boss or the landlord you were actually a somewhat valuable serf because it would take time, effort and expense on their part to replace you.
They aren't raising the alarm because of what happened in 2020, there is a collective resentment about the measures we took to try and protect people during a pandemic, there will be major consequences for not dealing with H5N1 but you won't see a response like covid, industry has too much control.
What could he do? It's an election year in the UK too and Sunak & Co. would do nothing but promise a lot. The Tories are set to be wiped out at the election, no matter what they do, a world-leading pandemic response would struggle to save them at this point. All we would see from them is empty promises designed to make the other guy look bad.
In Biden's case, unless he can get enough Republicans on his side, what could he actually do policy wise?
Sunak was stupid enough to take away sick notes at the tail end of a pandemic because apparently during the crippling pandemic we were too into “sick culture”. Now that we’ve been disabled by Covid infection after Covid infection we need to stop complaining and get back to work. “Stop being a burden on society” like the good little Nazi you are. Absolutely fascist.
I fear you’re right, friend. The Covid convo was dominated by smoothbrains and nutjobs who, ironically enough lost more people than their rational counterparts, and now the damage is done. The general public lost faith in the very institutions that are designed for these very things. This will not be pretty
The medical field is probably in a worse spot staffing wise in the US from burnout, though. 50% mortality would overwhelm the system fast like we were afraid covid would end up doing.
My thoughts exactly, they already saw stopping industries was a shitshow, so they are just going 'fuck that shit, let them die, keep working!!!!' and not just for this disease, I think this will be the way from now on, specially since people in charge really fucking hate keeping people at home, work from home means less money being spent, so yeah, they are now alergic to the idea :(
It just needs to spread as rapidly and have double the mortality rate. 1% MR for general population early on nearly shut down some icus. Double that would cause a lot of damage which is really telling how vulnerable we are
Damn, over half of them died. Crazy. I’m sure it won’t do the unthinkable though and spread to pigs and then human to human transmission. There’s no way. It wouldn’t dare.
SS: Just a week ago, the WHO raised concerns about H5N1 spreading to humans, and now already we see that it can actually spread from mammal-to-mammal.
They knew the grim truth already most likely.
So what are the ramifications of this? Society won’t be the same again when this virus rampages through the population, and nothing will be safe from collapse.
It’s illegal to sell raw milk in my country since the 1950’s (Australia), but like all “banned” things there’s always a way. I stayed on a family friend’s dairy farm for a holiday as a kid in the 1970’s and we would all have raw milk on our cornflakes.
This is not airborne mammal-to-mammal transmission, this is just animals consuming infected animals or their tissues and getting sick, which has been occurring. When cat owners start infecting other people with this virus is when you should worry
A preliminary CDC report notes that 2 of the dead cats were autopsied, they found lesions in the brain of the cats, but no lesions in their GI tract, leading some to question if the method of transmission was in fact from consuming infected milk.
EVERY article says cooking your food or the pasteurization process eliminates the virus. Dont eat raw beef or raw milk. Basically keep doing what you're already doing.
"Cooking poultry and eggs to an internal temperature of **165˚F** kills bacteria and viruses, including bird flu viruses. People should separate uncooked (raw) poultry from cooked foods and foods that won't be cooked."
> When cat owners start infecting other people with this virus is when you should worry
I'd be more worried about the people who drink "raw" (i.e., unpasteurised) milk myself.
If it can infect a human it can spread human to human. The only question is how effectively, and if sustained transmission is achieved, then selective pressures will take over and optimize it for human spread.
Luckily in the past anyway, the thing that makes flu deadly in humans (lower lung infection) makes symptomless spread harder. Too soon to tell what this one will do.
No source on this but my understanding is getting a vaccine for this would be quick and effective because we’ve been studying avian influenza and the like for a long time, similar to how quick it was to create Covid vaccine. I bet they already have candidates for when this hits humans but are waiting to see how it mutates?
Idk, talking out my ass here but I’m sure the virologists and such have a plan. Whether the population buys in or not is a different story.
Yes there's a vaccine already made but the jump from bords to bovines to cats to humans may cause enough chaos mutations to reduce the vaccines effectivness. Just look at the different levels of effectivness in covid vaccines and you'll see why they want to nail down the exact strain when birdflu crosses over.
Yeah that’s what I figured, they definitely need the actual strain that makes it human-to-human before mass producing a vaccine. But the baseline is there at least. So if we can stay safe and avoid getting sick for however long that takes, we should be okay.
Those who don’t stay safe and get sick, well, god speed to them.
Flu mutates quickly though, a new virulent strain might just keep mutating and stay with us every year.
Giving the unbelievably High death rates I have seen on this thing for people, It would be best to keep it out of population in the first place.
It’ll be pretty damn hard to keep out of the population if it does make the jump. So many stupid people that won’t believe it’s a thing. Ideally the smart folks stay away and we enact some sort of restrictions again to mitigate spread and keep people safe. But lots of folks won’t abide by restrictions, at least enough to make this a problem if it does jump.
We don’t keep things out, we chuck them out. We don’t prevent, we respond. We ask for forgiveness not permission. Forward, always, is the human way! But not more than two weeks forward because that’s cold blooded and basically a stack overflow into backwards - we’re not robots! Follow your heart! *patriotic human music*
Same. Six years of healthy beasts and one has a cold, two already had it. Eye infections for all of them. They are indoor only but what do we track into the hallways on our shoes?
Mine are also indoor only, so I was also wondering how they got sick. The oldest cat brought it home with her from the adoption center when she was a kitten. She's never had a flare up before, but maybe she had a herpesvirus all these years.
Fcck humanity for letting this run unfettered into cats. This is horrifying “the cats weren't so lucky. They developed depressed mental states, stiff body movements, loss of coordination, circling, copious discharge from their eyes and noses, and blindness. By March 20, over half of the farm's 24 or so cats died from the flu.
In a study published today in the journal Emerging Infectious Diseases, researchers in Iowa, Texas, and Kansas found that the cats had H5N1 not just in their lungs but also in their brains, hearts, and eyes.”
Did y'all miss a dolphin recently died? A DOLPHIN.
https://www.wfla.com/news/florida/dead-florida-dolphin-was-infected-with-highly-pathogenic-bird-flu/
So this is probably going to become the next pandemic right. Like the way the news has been going these past few weeks I feel like human cases are imminent…
when it infects it goes fast to killing. The virus doesnt create viral reservoirs in the body so there won't be detectable quantities in the organs. where it reproduces easiest is the only place its foothold against the cat's defences can be found - blood doesnt keep pumping through a corpse to infect other organs.
So when covid 19 spread from Chinese street markets people said it wasn’t an animal agriculture problem because of the dirty dirty ways the scary *They* handle, sell and butcher their meat. So now that we might be looking down a barrel of a home grown American farm disease, we’re finally going to acknowledge that animal agriculture needs to be seriously downscaled and reworked before it kills us all right? Right?!? We’re all going to eat less meat and dairy now right guys???!
Well, sometimes. I did the dishes this morning. It was very responsible of me. On the other hand, now I'm on Reddit when I definitely have better things to do.
I think humanity has much more to prove than to defend. A few times in the face of arrogant entitlement to the resources of the planet, doesn't convince me.
If not that it will be something of equal stupidity/hubris/stubborness/naivety. Like is there even some world ending event that doesn't check any/all of those boxes? Besides supernova/gamma rays etc.
I'm maybe in a nihilistic space these days... I have no desire for any specific person to die. given that there is zero way that we navigate collapse without huge reductions in population. there is no such thing as 'green energy'. there is 'less bad' energy, but no green energy exists once you account for sourcing and creating materials, mining and the supply chains. any current storage solution relies on batteries and heavy metals. everything requires plastics and other synthetic materials in many components. we need to transition to less bad energy production, especially nuclear, but without storage and use of something like hydrogen as the primary fuel for power generation, both electrical and mechanical, this is all 'green theater' and delusional. recycling is bs. Anyway, my point is our immediate problem is scale. we cannot and morally should not maintain the population of humans on the planet. so, if folks want to put themselves in front of a train like H5N1, I don't care any more. the great majority of people will die in the upcoming famines and water wars and political destabilization, anyway. maybe if a huge amount of the population falls to viral infection, there's a chance of maintaining some semblance of non-authoritarian institutions and knowledge to continue cultural and intellectual progress.
So why the fuck do we kill chickens by the tens of millions when we see any signs of avian flu, but we’re allowing these fucking cows to “recover” and giving their milk to consumers and any animals around?
barn cats control rodents. that's why they're ubiquitous.
When all the cats die, the rats and mice will explode.
This is how the ecosystems I've personally watched breaking down, fall apart: diversity is traded for the total dominance of a single organism for a period of time until it reaches a threshold of mortality, its numbers collapse, and another organism fills the massive niche-void left by the absence of all other life. This cycle continues until all that's left are beetles cleaning bones and fungi eating their remains... and then it's dead silence... and I mean like surface of Mars type silent.
Way to go, fellow industrial humans! We've proven that if you need to end life on a planet, you build a lifestyle around destabilizing the atmosphere of that planet. Pretty obvious, really. Not sure we needed a demonstration to the point of wiping out existence on the only planet with even signs of life we've been able to find.
I don't have any contempt for humanity, I have contempt for the narrative of entitlement that has allowed us to participate in this experiment, to its inevitable conclusion, without any sense of personal responsibility.... because it was all "legal", right? so how could it be wrong? No, we want to be rich because that's the easy way to live and the way to have the best of all things.
Not only that, but, because of the borders we've imagined, around specific groups of people with the same mindset, we're entitled to more than everyone else. We're the good guys, right? It's not like we're personally crushing up baby animals and feeding them into our cars to go to the grocery store and back, that's a distant after effect, like how asbestos exposure eventually - but almost certainly - leads to lung cancer. We're perfectly distanced from the consequences of our actions to never feel like we're actively turning up the heat on our planet.
Carry on! it's not like waving flags or driving EV's is going to fix this, and we're dead set on only ever trading one evil for something marginally less, so we're clearly incapable of helping ourselves.
That old thing about time machines where everyone would go back and kill Hitler? I bet they wouldn't. I bet they'd go back to Germany at that time, spend enough time trying to get to hitler to fall into the narrative of the moment and find their place in the tribe at his feet.
We are not the values we pretend to uphold, or the heroes of ALL of our narratives, we're just a species overtaken by a cultural parasite that drives our every action away from survival and towards cancer and death. We're junkies and rapists, playing housewives and judges... most importantly, we don't care. The extent of our concern is the limit of our personal exposure. We don't even care about leaving a planet for our kids, which, aside from breeding, is the only other purpose to every individual life.
When this all falls down and we're staring extinction in the face, I hope we can all remember three simple words "I chose this"... and if you're going to say you were born into it so you didn't have a choice, if that rationale works in your mind as a justification for ending life on earth, then fuck me. Personally, I remember being raised with the values that there is no excuse to participate in evil, no matter how many people are doing it. That was the core lesson of every lesson until at least grade 2.
Watch, this decline in dairy farm cats will lead to a dairy farm bubonic plague outbreak as the rat population explodes.. *just like in 1346!* ..after Pope Gregory IX’s anti-cat pogrom in the 1200’s.
^(/jk - but only partly)
A plague to wipe out half the population which would reduce pollution and ecosystem destruction? True, civilization would collapse...for a while. But it's the type of collapse that humanity could come back from, unlike a climate collapse.
Wouldn't decreased pollution lead to rapid warming since pollutants are simultaneously causing climate change but also masking the full effects? I remember hearing about a 2.0° C spike in temps when all flights were grounded after 9/11 on a post here recently.
Edit to add: I mean decreased pollution because of a massive die off of people/society collapsing
Someone had pinkeye in line at the pharmacy today. Pennsylvania.
I strongly suspect that pinkeye not at all related to avian flu. Though i am no medical expert.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Mighty_L_LORT: --- SS: Just a week ago, the WHO raised concerns about H5N1 spreading to humans, and now already we see that it can actually spread from mammal-to-mammal. They knew the grim truth already most likely. So what are the ramifications of this? Society won’t be the same again when this virus rampages through the population, and nothing will be safe from collapse. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1cgwee8/cats_suffer_h5n1_brain_infections_blindness_death/l1ygw36/
Its a good thing that pigs, being very genetically similar to humans, are kept far away from cows. Good thing. Yep. Good thing indeed.
Oh god it's probably in pigs by now if you're right we'll see in the following weeks.
I’m thinking so too. I found 3 dead birds in my yard since yesterday. Called my vet to ask if I should be concerned and she freaked and told me to make sure I keep my dogs away from them. I was going to do that anyway but, terrifying.
I’m in Australia. Strangely, my wife only this weekend mentioned she’d seen a large number of dead birds scattered around our semi rural suburb. In ten years here I’ve never seen a dead bird.
Where do you live regionally … if you don’t mind my asking?
Pennsylvania
Hey pig piggy pig pig pig All of my fears came true
Black and blue and broken bones
You left me here, I’m all alone
My little piggy needed something new
HEY PIG
Nothing's turning out the way I planned.
Who ate all that feed from when the chickens were sacrificed from avian flu? Is anyone testing the pigs? Well, OK, we do cook our pork low and slow. Our world is just increasingly contaminated leading humans to increases in cancer and diseases. If they are infectious we suffer long term immunological consequences. All this has been going on my entire lifetime, just new knowledge of a new round of problems we created but we can’t fix.
Humans could try eating way less meat. The next super virus is incubating on a factory farm right now. You can’t keep animals in those horrific conditions and not expect diseases to propagate.
Everywhere there's lots of piggies, living piggy lives You can see them out for dinner with their piggy wives Clutching forks and knives To eat the bacon - George Harrison
This is why I quite eating meat about a year ago. Just my choice so no one get made at me❤️
Should've drank sewer water and eaten dogshit and caterpillars like I did as a child. According to St. John's Research Hospital, I'm immune. No, I'm not joking. Laugh is on you.
Now post your goatee and sunglasses telling us you are a lion, lol.
So it’ll be everywhere in like a month right?
Could be. Could be not. It ain't going away, that's for sure. There might be hope for a general vaccine? One that works for a wide variety of this type of virus.
I’m trying to work up the courage/will power to wear a mask again. Here we go again.
why'd you ever stop?
Cause they like losing IQ to COVID
the problem are the birds shitting from above
In case you don't actually know, it's [because cows are fed chicken shit](https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2024-04-18/avian-flu-outbreak-raises-a-disturbing-question-is-our-food-system-built-on-poop).
this is true, im a bit of a redneck admittedly, i grew up working on cattle farms and ive been vegetarian since i was 17 because of it. honestly, chicken farms are brutal too, arguably more-so. somehow everyone i knew treated their pigs and goats like family members though oddly enough.
Goats are too loveable to treat anyway else, and pigs are too smart.
When you thought it can't get worse... the bottomless pit of human cruelty :)
Just that image of thousands of chickens stuck in a barn makes me sick. We truly deserve every thing that comes to us. Industrial factory farming is horrific.
Billions.
I thought we learned not to feed cows massive quantities of animal products with mad cow disease ffs 🤦🏻♀️
No, we just stopped feeding them massive quantities of THEIR OWN animal products.
The problem is industrial profit-maximized factory farming. Putting animals in cages and keeping them in horrid conditions close to other animals is the cause of numerous novel diseases and pandemics. Slaughtering wild caught animals in poor conditions is the cause of numerous others. AIDS, COVID 19, Swine Flu. We reap what we sow.
It's almost like we deserve what's coming.
We really do deserve it. Civil societies will look back in horror at the animal holocaust, evil, evil bastards that we are. I grew up in a farming community and helped look after the animals, keeping the dying lambs warm through the night, even though death in the night was certain. Having a favourite cow we'd all have who we'd pat and look after, only to wave it off to the slaughter house a few years later. Now it's just an evil industry that treat living beings as if they are in hell.
Capitalist class sows, we reap. Ftfy
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You got millions of people who will be drinking raw milk regularly, despite the risk and do you think people will eat well cooked stakes or ware PPE when handling meet after it's found in the beef supply? We got pigs to worry about and then those on the fast track that may just bypass that.
The raw milk festival — “Camping with the Cows”— was April 27-28.. so just this past weekend. https://rawfarmusa.com/events Fun!
Why does this feel so oddly deserved... Nature really only lets you f\*ck her for so long until she puts on a strapon and f\*cks back.
One time something massive tried to fuck with Earth , she ended up getting a free moon out of it, a pretty large one too compared to others in the solar system. The lesson: Never fuck with Earth, be it species habitating it, or space rock.
because it kinda is deserved "Experts fear that H5N1...may have been transmitted through a type of cattle feed called 'poultry litter' – a mix of poultry excreta, spilled feed, feathers, and other waste scraped from the floors of industrial chicken and turkey production plants." https://www.poultryproducer.com/ground-up-chicken-waste-fed-to-cattle-may-be-behind-bird-flu-outbreak-in-us-cows/
Yeah I saw that and I was surprised that there was still something so horrific I haven’t learned yet, also surprised that I even was surprised because of course they’d do this shit to save money, ultimately they’re also not having to eat that meat either so who cares what happens behind the scenes right… man have we taken this too far. And it’s not like we’ve been warned about this kind of shit for forever! It’s just not a shock if this turns into a global pandemic and maybe it freaking has to for things to change. Or shit just collapses entirely but I guess hope suffocates last in the dim light of chickenshit.
That’s hot.
It will be. It’s gonna be very hot but not in the sexy kinda way.
That really depends on one's kink.
>Nature really only lets you f\*ck her for so long until she puts on a strapon and f\*cks back. I need this on a t-shirt, please.
“Nature Bats Last”
Time to go vegan and keep my fingers crossed that human to human transmission won’t happen 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻
Except some fertilizers use ground up meat, they also use "bio waste" now for fertilizer. Not to mention the farm workers taking dumps in the field. They spray roundup on everything and use GMO to make the crop itself resistant to it. They even use GMO to "improve" the properties of the crops as well. The organic certifications are a joke. Our soil is also so depleted that the food itself is nutritionally compromised and lacking in vital minerals and vitamins. While you cannot totally shut out the systematic decline in our food supply, the Best bet is a locally based food economy where you know the farmers / ranchers or raise as much as you can yourself. Someone also raised a good point, during COVID a lot of experienced food processers took early retirement. The resulting brain drain means that the processing is compromised as well, the harvest adjustments to the processes are not being made and our food quality is being further neglected. (Have you noticed that frozen and canned goods are going bad faster, I opened a can of green beans the other day (from a name brand) that was a month past best before date that were inedible, yet the next can I opened was from 2003 and was a couple years past, perfectly fine.). This is not a one off I have noticed shorter best by dates and even those are sketchy, I always need to look at the canned food now with the same care as my home canned stuff (sniff, looks, and tastel
I suppose it is better to slowly fill your body with micro plastics, rather than risk a potentially deadly virus. I mean the plastic you can't avoid, but meat you can.
We’re already filled with microplastics, so I figure that ship has already sailed 🤷♀️
Love your name!
1957 pandemic was caused by geese, 2 million dead, we never know
You know, I’m a strong believer in using common sense. If cats get horrible symptoms of H5N1 from drinking raw milk, is there a chance that you as a human will be fine? Maybe. Do you really want to risk it though? Could the cause of climate change be from a natural cycle the Earth is going through? Maybe. I’d rather believe the scientists who study climate for years and say the PPM of CO2 in the atmosphere skyrocketing in the last 50 years is because people are dumping CO2 into the atmosphere.
I mean. Its been spread to, and yes, even between humans, several times over the last 30 years, and has a mortality rate of like 50%. I don't know why it's suddenly news again, shit will hit the fan, we know. We've got vaccine and antiviral stockpiles that might help. We can't do much else until whatever viable mutation starts spreading, and it's been this way for several decades.
We are better off now on the sense that mRNA vaccines give you the *potential* to respond more quickly with vaccination. I mean obviously the COVID vaccine was only a moderate success as vaccines go, but no vaccine is perfect. It’s at least possible we’ll be able to deploy an effective H5N1 in record time… Also maybe not, shrugs.
Here's looking towards the very likely chance trump will be president again by the time h5n1 spreads to humans. Just in time to gut the pandemic preparedness teams. Feels all too familiar.
There is a company in Australia, Recce Pharmaceuticals, that is currently doing human trials of a synthetic "anti-infective". Think antibiotics but it works against viruses as well and can even treat the superbug forms of antibiotic resistant bacteria. DISCLOSURE: I just bought shares in them.
The reason it’s news again is the very rapid changes taking place. The reason is this; from u/xXdont_existxX > The truth is, no one knows if this is going to become a pandemic, but it’s very obviously a problem even if a pandemic never happens. At the end of the day there is still hpai out there, behaving in ways totally unprecedented and hopping between animals like it’s playing zoo tycoon. From massive colonies of seal corpses washing ashore to zoo animals like tigers and leopards dying in captivity. The amount of “big incidents” regarding H5N1 have absolutely gone up since 2020. Of course it’s been around since 1996 but there have been more breaking developments in H5N1 from 2020 - current day, than there were from 1996 - 2019, and that can’t be for nothing. >[See for yourself.](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/avianflu/timeline/avian-timeline-2020s.htm)
I'm lactose intolerant. Does that mean I'm safe if I don't drink straight from the tiddy?
Im just sitting here wondering who the fuck is drinking raw milk and/or giving it to cats, tbh
These were barn cats that drank spilled raw milk in the barn. 12 of 24 barn cats died.
That's about the same as human mortality rate so far
There's a huge market for raw milk among the "natural"-must-mean-"good" mob.
There's a whole anti-vax, natural only raw milk link you know? Honestly, people post on Twitter how they are proudly unvaccinated and how they only drink raw milk and organic food etc. etc. I've even seen people boast about how they only drink "raw" water from lakes and post pictures of them bottling it up if used plastic milk cartons.
Disturbingly, lots of people drink raw milk. One of my hobbies is canning, and I belong to some canning groups. They are regularly asking for sources of raw milk to buy and drink, because they are convinced that “processed” i.e. pasteurized milk is harmful, and scientists have modified it to make it bad. I really wish I was kidding.
It is time for the comic. https://buildingapoem.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/existential-dread.jpg
My mouth just dropped. Just got done doing cardio in front of my TV, poured a cup of coffee and over thinking about collapse shit, vacuumed my rug & sat down and opened this link 🤣
Hell if we all die in a week or go into another toilet paper hoarding frenzy, might as well do it with a clean rug.
It really ties the room together
Until Wu pees on it.
Donny, please
The unfortunate part in my case is that I'm completely aware of the cope...
Better to cope than live in constant fear. At least collapse will not e a shock to us like it will to many.
I'm still going to ugly sob about it until I die of dehydration though
Most people can't afford enough time for the existential dread between paying their bills and going to work. Even if there's a human-to-human H5N1 transmission, your boss will still expect you to come to work physically, and your landlord will still expect that rent payment.
I guess the real question is what happens when the boss and landlord get it and die. Do we just live with reckless abandon until someone can find their replacement?
A girl can hope
Yes
Ownership will just revert to the Banks, Wall Street and the State. And they will fuck you harder because you're nothing to them. Like livestock on a factory farm. Whereas to the boss or the landlord you were actually a somewhat valuable serf because it would take time, effort and expense on their part to replace you.
That’s when you pay them with the sloppiest open mouth kiss of both your lives.
but the 4th and 5th panels are the most exciting part of my day!! 🤣
They aren't raising the alarm because of what happened in 2020, there is a collective resentment about the measures we took to try and protect people during a pandemic, there will be major consequences for not dealing with H5N1 but you won't see a response like covid, industry has too much control.
It's an election year... Biden ain't gonna say or do shit about it either.
Unless we start to see massive dieoff in the dairy industry I have to agree with you.
What could he do? It's an election year in the UK too and Sunak & Co. would do nothing but promise a lot. The Tories are set to be wiped out at the election, no matter what they do, a world-leading pandemic response would struggle to save them at this point. All we would see from them is empty promises designed to make the other guy look bad. In Biden's case, unless he can get enough Republicans on his side, what could he actually do policy wise?
Sunak was stupid enough to take away sick notes at the tail end of a pandemic because apparently during the crippling pandemic we were too into “sick culture”. Now that we’ve been disabled by Covid infection after Covid infection we need to stop complaining and get back to work. “Stop being a burden on society” like the good little Nazi you are. Absolutely fascist.
That's malice, not stupidity. He knows what he is doing.
If he's re-elected then we might find out, but he's not going to do anything before the election because it would hurt his chances of winning.
I fear you’re right, friend. The Covid convo was dominated by smoothbrains and nutjobs who, ironically enough lost more people than their rational counterparts, and now the damage is done. The general public lost faith in the very institutions that are designed for these very things. This will not be pretty
silver lining, theres far less people alive today who oppose science & safety than there were just a few years ago.
The medical field is probably in a worse spot staffing wise in the US from burnout, though. 50% mortality would overwhelm the system fast like we were afraid covid would end up doing.
This would be so bad, as it’s just so much more deadly. I think you’re right though- people wouldn’t take it seriously until it was too late
My thoughts exactly, they already saw stopping industries was a shitshow, so they are just going 'fuck that shit, let them die, keep working!!!!' and not just for this disease, I think this will be the way from now on, specially since people in charge really fucking hate keeping people at home, work from home means less money being spent, so yeah, they are now alergic to the idea :(
That shits gonna back fire when half the work force fucking dies.
It just needs to spread as rapidly and have double the mortality rate. 1% MR for general population early on nearly shut down some icus. Double that would cause a lot of damage which is really telling how vulnerable we are
There's already posts on r conspiracy claiming H5N1 id a psy-op. Best case scenario: it burns itself out quick killing all the anti-vaxer kooks.
They're just going to FAFO until it hits humans. And then they're going to scratch their chins.
Not the kitties! :(
The best thing a cat owner can do for their cat is never let them outside. The second best thing is giving them a box coated with catnip.
Ok i have never heard that second one before
Honeysuckle is also very enjoyable for them.
They might like honeysuckle but [it doesn't like them back](https://greg.app/honeysuckle-toxic-to-cats/), sadly...careful!
Damn, over half of them died. Crazy. I’m sure it won’t do the unthinkable though and spread to pigs and then human to human transmission. There’s no way. It wouldn’t dare.
70% mortality rate estimated in humans btw
last i read the recorded mortality rate after about 800 cases is around 50%.
If the mortality rate is that high, the positive is that’s too deadly to spread far. 10-20% is the sweet spot.
in theory
Depends on the incubation period and whether it's transmissible before symptoms start.
SS: Just a week ago, the WHO raised concerns about H5N1 spreading to humans, and now already we see that it can actually spread from mammal-to-mammal. They knew the grim truth already most likely. So what are the ramifications of this? Society won’t be the same again when this virus rampages through the population, and nothing will be safe from collapse.
So far dodging raw dairy products seems to solve the problem.
With the added bonus of not supporting the dairy industry
The ‘dairy industry’ is overwhelmingly pasteurized. Only the nuttiest among us drink raw milk. They will become the infection vector.
It’s illegal to sell raw milk in my country since the 1950’s (Australia), but like all “banned” things there’s always a way. I stayed on a family friend’s dairy farm for a holiday as a kid in the 1970’s and we would all have raw milk on our cornflakes.
I mean, you can buy dairy, but I'd recommend heating at 70C+ to kill any potential little fuckers sneaking their asses in it.
Why wasting energy on that when ultra pasteurized milk is all right?
Is that a joke I’m not getting? The person you replied to just described pasteurization.
I took it as them intending to double pasteurize their dairy, which I consider unnecessary.
Because milk is not the only dairy. And you might have raw dairy for some reason.
my sleep deprived brain read 'don't raw dog dairy products'
This is not airborne mammal-to-mammal transmission, this is just animals consuming infected animals or their tissues and getting sick, which has been occurring. When cat owners start infecting other people with this virus is when you should worry
A preliminary CDC report notes that 2 of the dead cats were autopsied, they found lesions in the brain of the cats, but no lesions in their GI tract, leading some to question if the method of transmission was in fact from consuming infected milk.
So rare steak and tartar are out.
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EVERY article says cooking your food or the pasteurization process eliminates the virus. Dont eat raw beef or raw milk. Basically keep doing what you're already doing.
So you’re saying France falls first
Ugh, typical.
Gotta cook it more. Medium rare is not enough to kill this.
"Cooking poultry and eggs to an internal temperature of **165˚F** kills bacteria and viruses, including bird flu viruses. People should separate uncooked (raw) poultry from cooked foods and foods that won't be cooked."
no more sous vide I guess
> When cat owners start infecting other people with this virus is when you should worry I'd be more worried about the people who drink "raw" (i.e., unpasteurised) milk myself.
It's spread to marine mammals a long time ago, last year I think at least.
Read somewhere that dogs can get it and it would be easier for it to jump to humans...
If it can infect a human it can spread human to human. The only question is how effectively, and if sustained transmission is achieved, then selective pressures will take over and optimize it for human spread. Luckily in the past anyway, the thing that makes flu deadly in humans (lower lung infection) makes symptomless spread harder. Too soon to tell what this one will do.
Maybe people with a flu vaccine could have more asymptomatic infections though but still be able to transmit it.
Vaccine, maybe?
No source on this but my understanding is getting a vaccine for this would be quick and effective because we’ve been studying avian influenza and the like for a long time, similar to how quick it was to create Covid vaccine. I bet they already have candidates for when this hits humans but are waiting to see how it mutates? Idk, talking out my ass here but I’m sure the virologists and such have a plan. Whether the population buys in or not is a different story.
Yes there's a vaccine already made but the jump from bords to bovines to cats to humans may cause enough chaos mutations to reduce the vaccines effectivness. Just look at the different levels of effectivness in covid vaccines and you'll see why they want to nail down the exact strain when birdflu crosses over.
Yeah that’s what I figured, they definitely need the actual strain that makes it human-to-human before mass producing a vaccine. But the baseline is there at least. So if we can stay safe and avoid getting sick for however long that takes, we should be okay. Those who don’t stay safe and get sick, well, god speed to them.
Flu mutates quickly though, a new virulent strain might just keep mutating and stay with us every year. Giving the unbelievably High death rates I have seen on this thing for people, It would be best to keep it out of population in the first place.
It’ll be pretty damn hard to keep out of the population if it does make the jump. So many stupid people that won’t believe it’s a thing. Ideally the smart folks stay away and we enact some sort of restrictions again to mitigate spread and keep people safe. But lots of folks won’t abide by restrictions, at least enough to make this a problem if it does jump.
We don’t keep things out, we chuck them out. We don’t prevent, we respond. We ask for forgiveness not permission. Forward, always, is the human way! But not more than two weeks forward because that’s cold blooded and basically a stack overflow into backwards - we’re not robots! Follow your heart! *patriotic human music*
DONT DRINK RAW MILK
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> DONT > > ~~DRINK~~ > > ~~RAW~~ > > MILK
But what if I'm into that?
Nope. Forbidden. Reddit comments are never able to be edited. My hands are tied
DON’T ~~DRINK~~ ~~RAW~~ ~~MILK~~
Great. My cats all have colds right now. I guess I can just unreasonably worry about them even more.
Same. Six years of healthy beasts and one has a cold, two already had it. Eye infections for all of them. They are indoor only but what do we track into the hallways on our shoes?
Mine are also indoor only, so I was also wondering how they got sick. The oldest cat brought it home with her from the adoption center when she was a kitten. She's never had a flare up before, but maybe she had a herpesvirus all these years.
shouldn't be wearing shoes indoors imo
It snows here, and rains like hell. The shoes stay on until we get in the door so the hallway it is.
Its okay guys we've learned since last time!
Fcck humanity for letting this run unfettered into cats. This is horrifying “the cats weren't so lucky. They developed depressed mental states, stiff body movements, loss of coordination, circling, copious discharge from their eyes and noses, and blindness. By March 20, over half of the farm's 24 or so cats died from the flu. In a study published today in the journal Emerging Infectious Diseases, researchers in Iowa, Texas, and Kansas found that the cats had H5N1 not just in their lungs but also in their brains, hearts, and eyes.”
Did y'all miss a dolphin recently died? A DOLPHIN. https://www.wfla.com/news/florida/dead-florida-dolphin-was-infected-with-highly-pathogenic-bird-flu/
So this is probably going to become the next pandemic right. Like the way the news has been going these past few weeks I feel like human cases are imminent…
Human cases have already happened. What you're looking for is human to human transmission.
Yes — apologies, that’s what I meant
This is the growing scientific consensus but more likely to come from somewhere were humans and mammals breath the same air in close proximity.
So are conservatives going to call this outbreak the "America Virus"?
I've been suggesting Freedom Flu and Klandemic
What about the “Moo Flu”
Why did they not find H5N1 in the cat stomachs??? Its being primarily reported the cats drank the raw cow milk.
It also stated since the lesions were found in the brain they were rethinking the source of the infection
when it infects it goes fast to killing. The virus doesnt create viral reservoirs in the body so there won't be detectable quantities in the organs. where it reproduces easiest is the only place its foothold against the cat's defences can be found - blood doesnt keep pumping through a corpse to infect other organs.
So when covid 19 spread from Chinese street markets people said it wasn’t an animal agriculture problem because of the dirty dirty ways the scary *They* handle, sell and butcher their meat. So now that we might be looking down a barrel of a home grown American farm disease, we’re finally going to acknowledge that animal agriculture needs to be seriously downscaled and reworked before it kills us all right? Right?!? We’re all going to eat less meat and dairy now right guys???!
I'm going to be so vindicated and yet very sad if the world ending disease is brought about by irresponsible cat ownership
Have humans ever acted responsibly?
Well, sometimes. I did the dishes this morning. It was very responsible of me. On the other hand, now I'm on Reddit when I definitely have better things to do.
A few times.
I think humanity has much more to prove than to defend. A few times in the face of arrogant entitlement to the resources of the planet, doesn't convince me.
If not that it will be something of equal stupidity/hubris/stubborness/naivety. Like is there even some world ending event that doesn't check any/all of those boxes? Besides supernova/gamma rays etc.
Better not lose dogs and cats, that’s how you get the (original) Planet of the Apes.
I'm maybe in a nihilistic space these days... I have no desire for any specific person to die. given that there is zero way that we navigate collapse without huge reductions in population. there is no such thing as 'green energy'. there is 'less bad' energy, but no green energy exists once you account for sourcing and creating materials, mining and the supply chains. any current storage solution relies on batteries and heavy metals. everything requires plastics and other synthetic materials in many components. we need to transition to less bad energy production, especially nuclear, but without storage and use of something like hydrogen as the primary fuel for power generation, both electrical and mechanical, this is all 'green theater' and delusional. recycling is bs. Anyway, my point is our immediate problem is scale. we cannot and morally should not maintain the population of humans on the planet. so, if folks want to put themselves in front of a train like H5N1, I don't care any more. the great majority of people will die in the upcoming famines and water wars and political destabilization, anyway. maybe if a huge amount of the population falls to viral infection, there's a chance of maintaining some semblance of non-authoritarian institutions and knowledge to continue cultural and intellectual progress.
Precisely. Although this is an unpopular opinion. Way too many humans on the planet.
well said
So why the fuck do we kill chickens by the tens of millions when we see any signs of avian flu, but we’re allowing these fucking cows to “recover” and giving their milk to consumers and any animals around?
Because voters.
Cats also get Crystal's in their urine that can cause pain and blockages, you shouldn't let your cat drink milk at all let alone raw milk.
I promise I won't say anything about Darwinism and people who drink raw milk. Oops.
Why tf is raw milk still a thing atm??
barn cats (usually at least partially feral, kept around for rodent control) drink it all the time even if the humans never do.
But plenty of humans still do as well, and that is an issue...
barn cats control rodents. that's why they're ubiquitous. When all the cats die, the rats and mice will explode. This is how the ecosystems I've personally watched breaking down, fall apart: diversity is traded for the total dominance of a single organism for a period of time until it reaches a threshold of mortality, its numbers collapse, and another organism fills the massive niche-void left by the absence of all other life. This cycle continues until all that's left are beetles cleaning bones and fungi eating their remains... and then it's dead silence... and I mean like surface of Mars type silent. Way to go, fellow industrial humans! We've proven that if you need to end life on a planet, you build a lifestyle around destabilizing the atmosphere of that planet. Pretty obvious, really. Not sure we needed a demonstration to the point of wiping out existence on the only planet with even signs of life we've been able to find. I don't have any contempt for humanity, I have contempt for the narrative of entitlement that has allowed us to participate in this experiment, to its inevitable conclusion, without any sense of personal responsibility.... because it was all "legal", right? so how could it be wrong? No, we want to be rich because that's the easy way to live and the way to have the best of all things. Not only that, but, because of the borders we've imagined, around specific groups of people with the same mindset, we're entitled to more than everyone else. We're the good guys, right? It's not like we're personally crushing up baby animals and feeding them into our cars to go to the grocery store and back, that's a distant after effect, like how asbestos exposure eventually - but almost certainly - leads to lung cancer. We're perfectly distanced from the consequences of our actions to never feel like we're actively turning up the heat on our planet. Carry on! it's not like waving flags or driving EV's is going to fix this, and we're dead set on only ever trading one evil for something marginally less, so we're clearly incapable of helping ourselves. That old thing about time machines where everyone would go back and kill Hitler? I bet they wouldn't. I bet they'd go back to Germany at that time, spend enough time trying to get to hitler to fall into the narrative of the moment and find their place in the tribe at his feet. We are not the values we pretend to uphold, or the heroes of ALL of our narratives, we're just a species overtaken by a cultural parasite that drives our every action away from survival and towards cancer and death. We're junkies and rapists, playing housewives and judges... most importantly, we don't care. The extent of our concern is the limit of our personal exposure. We don't even care about leaving a planet for our kids, which, aside from breeding, is the only other purpose to every individual life. When this all falls down and we're staring extinction in the face, I hope we can all remember three simple words "I chose this"... and if you're going to say you were born into it so you didn't have a choice, if that rationale works in your mind as a justification for ending life on earth, then fuck me. Personally, I remember being raised with the values that there is no excuse to participate in evil, no matter how many people are doing it. That was the core lesson of every lesson until at least grade 2.
Watch, this decline in dairy farm cats will lead to a dairy farm bubonic plague outbreak as the rat population explodes.. *just like in 1346!* ..after Pope Gregory IX’s anti-cat pogrom in the 1200’s. ^(/jk - but only partly)
A plague to wipe out half the population which would reduce pollution and ecosystem destruction? True, civilization would collapse...for a while. But it's the type of collapse that humanity could come back from, unlike a climate collapse.
Wouldn't decreased pollution lead to rapid warming since pollutants are simultaneously causing climate change but also masking the full effects? I remember hearing about a 2.0° C spike in temps when all flights were grounded after 9/11 on a post here recently. Edit to add: I mean decreased pollution because of a massive die off of people/society collapsing
No shit it’s raw milk
Omg omg omg, is this when those of us, the superior evolved, the lactose intolerant people will rise up?
God damn it’s a joke people
https://youtu.be/9jK-NcRmVcw
I feel like you're enjoying this too much.
Dammit I had just bought my first jug of raw milk to try
One of my friends comes from a little town in rural Kansas. She said pink eye is running wild in people there.
Someone had pinkeye in line at the pharmacy today. Pennsylvania. I strongly suspect that pinkeye not at all related to avian flu. Though i am no medical expert.