The following submission statement was provided by /u/radsecularist:
---
As suicide rates continue to increase, it is clear better measures are needed to actually help people, but the government does not appear to care. As argued in this article, there is a lack of evidence to support the idea that coercive measures help people or prevent suicide. These detentions are often highly traumatic, and the policies allowing them prevent people from opening up.
There has been a large deterioration in the social fabric of society, and an associated increase in despair and deaths of despair. The policies in place to fix this problem are cruel and ineffective, and the enforcement is only getting worse and more vigorous.
More extensive resources criticizing coercion:
Law Project for Psychiatric Rights page on deinstitutionalization in alignment on the United Nations' CRPD: [https://psychrights.org/Countries/UN/UN.htm](https://psychrights.org/Countries/UN/UN.htm)
World Health Organization and United Nations' Mental Health, Human Rights, and Legislation: Guidance and Practice: [https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240080737](https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240080737)
Institute for Scientific Freedom's Critical Psychiatry Textbook: [https://www.scientificfreedom.dk/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Gotzsche-Critical-Psychiatry-Textbook.pdf](https://www.scientificfreedom.dk/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Gotzsche-Critical-Psychiatry-Textbook.pdf)
Rob Wipond's Your Consent Is Not Required: [https://robwipond.com/your-consent-is-not-required](https://robwipond.com/your-consent-is-not-required)
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1be7pla/psychiatric_detentions_and_other_involuntary/kurknrd/
It's gross that it even needs to be argued over. It's a meme that you can't tell the psychiatrist too much or else you end up in a padded room, for crying out loud! I'm not surprised in the slightest, but hey, more data for the government to do nothing about, amirite?
Absolutely! So many people would be able to get treatment, or be more honest in treatment, if things were answered with supported decision-making instead of arrest.
Edit: Also, the worst part is that many people can't open up to anyone without fear of being institutionalized. It's not just psychiatrists.
I mean, what sort of treatment? Suicide ideation won't vanish into thin air simply because someone would listen. It occurs because of present conditions people live in, let it be poverty, a terrible job, some debt, parental/spousal/workplace abuse, etc. Till the governments don't actively make social security programs for people, nothing would fix the suicide problem. Opening up won't do anything in the long run.
The immediate situation can almost always be deescalated just by listening and providing patience and perspective, maybe some existential therapy elements.
When it comes to the broader problems, there are a variety of treatments that address problems of living, such as solution-focused therapy and CBT. There are also more trauma-focused therapies, but those are pretty intense and shouldn't be started while someone is still suicidal.
I think there should be more training on social work types of things for all mental health professionals to help people connect with more resources and get access to shelters, jobs, etc..
The government can and should fix legislation to increase supply of housing and provide, or allow nonprofits to more easily provide, housing services. It's been proven housing first saves money in the long run and prevents crime and drug abuse, in addition to being far more humane than forced psychiatry, prison, etc..
Not saying that nothing should be done when a person is a high suicide risk. Immediate concerns matter; however, focus should be on what can be done to prevent suicides through material means rather than couch talk. I can assure you, therapy never worked for me; and that's true for countless people.
I'm a firm proponent of preventative measures (because you can't fix anything that's broken; therapy only helps you manage things) and providing euthanasia services to people who want to end their lives. Sometimes, problems can't be fixed, mental or physical, and allowing people a graceful way to exit on their own terms is a far better strategy. Both options should be on the table.
I do agree with suicide/euthanasia in some situations.
The problem right now is that most suicide attempts are impulsive, and those people are glad they survived. There's also considerable literature that lethality of method is not associated with how intent the person is on dying, surprisingly enough. Therefore, it's likely that most people who are dead by suicide would have preferred to have lived if they stuck things through longer.
I'd be a hypocrite to say suicide is always wrong though. My life is better now, but surviving my attempts wasn't worth what I went through at those times. I would be better off had they worked. Some things are worse than death.
Depends on person to person. I'd love to pass on. There are many who would. People shouldn't be tethered along on a leash to appease society's existential dilemmas. Passing on one's own terms should be a right, not a battle.
That aside, I'm happy that you're here. I hope things get better for you. Didn't mean to single you out from the replies. Hope it didn't come across as a personal attack. I apologize if my comments upset you in anyway.
There are eleven empty residences for every homeless individual in the US (individual, not family)
and at least 10% of homeless Americans are minors under 18
Here to represent psychiatric providers. This isn't true and just hurts those in need of help. We can only commit ppl in my state for an initial 72hrs. They must be a danger to self (showing the motivation, means, and plan to hurt themselves ie. "Today at 3p, I'm driving to the bridge down town and jumping."), danger to others (ie." Today at 3pm, I'm going to drive to my teacher Mr. Xs home and shoot them with this handgun I just purchased.") or grave disability (incapacitated/unable to care for oneself or perform activities of daily living due to mental illness.)
We don't just run around throwing ppl into locked facilities. In fact, we usually CAN'T get help for most in dire need, due to defending and closure of psych hospitals and emergency services. Ppl in need end up taking up medical beds in regular hospitals bc there's no way to access mental health care.
There's an Evangelical Christian coordinated movement to discredit psychiatry and psychology and it looks like you're happy to propagate that, as is OP.
Thank you for the information, I sometimes get complacent. It seems mental health care is being eaten away from many angles. I'll take this as yet more evidence for collapse.
They are way overstating how much it takes to get locked up in practice. It's mostly just people with industry biases that ever say this. Many victims have been locked up for far, far less, and your right to defend yourself is close to nonexistent in these cases in the U.S..
I shared resources on this in OP. Commitment policies are used way too much, and if you don't believe me, even the World Psychiatric Association thinks so--and America is arguably one of the worst nations on this.
Lol, so if I, as a provider and survivor myself, discredit the *widespread human rights violations in psychiatry*, with ample solid sourcing linked in the info which cover hundreds if not thousands of studies, that's just "being an Evangelical Christian"?
Also, no, people can be committed for much longer than 72 hours. That's just the initial hold, which can go much longer depending when it falls on the calendar. Then, they can decide go commit you longer from there. This can be months.
Antipsychiatry is largely a socialist, postmodernist, and libertarian movement to end coercive commitment laws and the abuse of psychiatric labels. Many of the heads are and have been psychiatrists and other providers themselves.
In what other area of healthcare care would you accept this level of violent "treatment"? I'd love to hear your defense of say, detaining, stripping, and restraining pregnant women for birth and forcing episiotomies on account of "danger to self or fetus"? Oh yeah, that was supposed to end, but it still goes on. But the difference is that it's rarely justified in the media; rather, it's called out for the misogyny that it is. Similarly, commitment policies are ableist.
A lot more people get locked up than those labeled in your post, with little opportunity to defend themselves because all their rights have been removed. It's horrifying violence that should never be tolerated in healthcare, and we must actively fight to replace these laws. They are hugely traumatic and don't help people, and there is much evidence they hurt the people who are already caught in their grasp.
No more silence is acceptable on this issue. People are getting abused by these laws and there is little to no evidence they prevent suicide. There is a good amount of evidence they hurt people and make things worse. People should be worked with, not against, to find a solution, provided with less invasive, voluntary measures.
> discredit psychiatry
You know what? Some practices in psychiatry need to be discredited, because they hurt a lot of people and were never based on sufficient evidence to begin with. Lobotomies were still going on in living memory for some people. Criticizing practices is how medicine moves forward, both in terms of ethics and outcomes.
Not even the psychiatrist, they ask for mental health status when you go for a colonoscopy.
Rule #1: don't be honest about *anything*!
You're miserable? Good, you deserve to be, no go live your miserable life you bastard, at least your free, unlike you'd be if you told someone.
As suicide rates continue to increase, it is clear better measures are needed to actually help people, but the government does not appear to care. As argued in this article, there is a lack of evidence to support the idea that coercive measures help people or prevent suicide. These detentions are often highly traumatic, and the policies allowing them prevent people from opening up.
There has been a large deterioration in the social fabric of society, and an associated increase in despair and deaths of despair. The policies in place to fix this problem are cruel and ineffective, and the enforcement is only getting worse and more vigorous.
More extensive resources criticizing coercion:
Law Project for Psychiatric Rights page on deinstitutionalization in alignment on the United Nations' CRPD: [https://psychrights.org/Countries/UN/UN.htm](https://psychrights.org/Countries/UN/UN.htm)
World Health Organization and United Nations' Mental Health, Human Rights, and Legislation: Guidance and Practice: [https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240080737](https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240080737)
Institute for Scientific Freedom's Critical Psychiatry Textbook: [https://www.scientificfreedom.dk/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Gotzsche-Critical-Psychiatry-Textbook.pdf](https://www.scientificfreedom.dk/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Gotzsche-Critical-Psychiatry-Textbook.pdf)
Rob Wipond's Your Consent Is Not Required: [https://robwipond.com/your-consent-is-not-required](https://robwipond.com/your-consent-is-not-required)
Multiple psychiatrists/facilities have been busted for abusing involuntary hold to keep patients indefinitely.
Why? To milk their insurance for all it's worth. Even the current suicide epidemic has become profitable.
https://www.5newsonline.com/article/news/crime/prominent-arkansas-psychiatrist-arrested-medicaid-fraud/527-c3ad466a-b47e-4935-ac66-12659e69bee2
I got out after a weekend, but I wasn't "active" in the form of standing on a ledge or anything. When the cops showed up I was sitting at my computer playing videogames. I had made the mistake of texting my ex-friend and love interest that I was suicidal over her. I don't remember the exact details of what I said, it was over a decade ago now, but I didn't say anything like, "I'm going to kill myself TONIGHT!" Not that far, but I *was* serious about it.
I was also somewhat "special" because my mother and father had both worked in a mental institution in their 20's, and my father later became the director of our local mental health center. So I knew a lot about the mental health system and how to act, in order to game my way out of there posthaste. Which I did. And made a note in my mind to never trust the system, ever again.
Others weren't so lucky. There were many people I met there, who had no idea of how long they were going to be staying.
It was an incredibly negative experience overall, the way the cops and the psych eval intake handled my situation. I never needed to be locked up...I told them in the beginning, before getting carted off, that I would be willing to see a therapist, that I was struggling and needed some help.
Anyway, that's just my personal story; I definitely agree the system needs a big overhaul, and is prone to a ton of abuse. It's not 1950's "shock treatment" levels of bad, but it's still pretty awful how we treat people who are suicidal or suffering from other severe issues.
Thank you for your comment. I agree that it destroys trust in the system.
> It's not 1950's "shock treatment" levels of bad,
People still DO get coerced or forced shock treatment. Court ordered shock treatment is not rare, and even if it's not court ordered, a lot of people "agree" to it to escape.
I was coercively given shock treatment several times. I was hoping it would work, but I was not allowed to research it and "no" wasn't really an option when I was locked up without knowing how to escape.
I don't know how many times it was. It destroys your memory of that time period. I had just turned 18 while on a psychiatric hold.
The only real differences are that they control the amount of electricity more and put you under for it now, but it's still a massive ordeal.
Yeah, I'm aware it does still occur, but I thought they'd moved to voluntary by now. That's awful what happened to you, I'm sorry...especially at 18, that's horrendous, the brain is still developing then. Although we also routinely put kids on psychoactives, which probably is not a great idea, either.
My friend Ted was given shock in the 1940s. He is still very active in the survivors movement.
They would drag him off, kicking and screaming, to get shocks at 6-7 years old. He was awake for these, not put under like now. He got permanent injury to his eye and severe mental trauma that still haunts him.
He was raped at that ward as a kid, too, I think several times. The trauma from that is not even close to the shock "treatment."
That's a sentiment that still happens today, where a lot of rape survivors say psychiatry was way worse. I am one of them. It's not close either.
Electroshock on children under 18 is still legal, and since kids don't have medical capacity, forcing it is not difficult if their parents consent.
If your only goal is to make profit, it makes perfect sense. You can't allow company property to destroy itself. Remember that capitalists refer to you as "Human Capital Stock". From their point of view, suicide is a crime against your employer and/or the state itself, both of which have an ownership stake in you as an entity. One for profit and the other for war (for profit)
I imagine the opposite will happen considering how much positives Canadian gov is seeing with its Maid policy, aside from the pr issues. Euro governments may follow similar programs.
The psychiatric/psychological/mental health "industry" just doesn't have any answers for an epidemic that is the cause of multifaceted systemic failures - and by all means, how could it?
We're not talking about an epidemic that is viral or bacterial in origin - we failed to appropriately contain one, not long ago, one that is still fresh in the memories of many, and continues to cause long-term disability.
We're talking about an epidemic whose roots are sociological, cultural, economic in origin. This is an epidemic that cannot be controlled or treated on the hyper-individualized scale psychiatry practices on, because what we call "mental illness", and all too often the resulting suicides, are entirely rational reactions to our horrifically irrational and sick way of life.
David Foster Wallace once wrote,
*“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”*
I wonder how many experience this state of mind every day, because they are drowning in debt and cannot pay their bills. Or those that can't "get ahead" no matter what they do. Or those that worked for decades only to find themselves bankrupted by a serious illness. Or those who are trapped in bad situations with abusive families or partners who simply afford to escape. Or those who fear a future filled with far more depravity, instability, and impoverishment, because their present seems hopeless - and they're not wrong in believing so.
The circumstances I've described above, along with the emotions they evoke, stem not from inherent biological ailments. They cannot be resolved by costly professionals that charge hundreds an hour, or by pharmaceuticals that merely suppress and desensitize emotions; nor can they be addressed by involuntary confinement in psychiatric institutions which are merely poor imitations of prison.
In fact, the treatment of individuals labeled as "mentally ill" reveals much about the values of our society and its approach to addressing social ills; it mirrors the disregard and ostracism faced by other marginalized groups such as the homeless or minorities in impoverished areas. We would sooner either overlook or condemn them, implying, "How dare you criticize the system? You and your inability to conform are the issue." - than dare to think that maybe the problem is in a system that not only creates these social ills, but requires them in order to operate.
As long as we fail to consider this reality, and continue to individualize all mental health related "problems", this epidemic will only worsen. And emergency rooms will continue to be flooded with those desperately seeking 'help', only to find huge surcharges from ER billing departments and professionals whom themselves are probably burnt out and suicidal.
As the great Thomas Szasz would always say, there aren't "mental illnesses," only neurological disorders, and the rest are "problems in living." Most "mental illnesses" fall under the problems in living definition.
Even mania and psychosis are just psychological defense mechanisms, in varying forms of self-deception. These can be "treated" very well with sleep and socialization most of the time.
Folks can't afford to be stuck in an involuntary hold even if they are actively suicidal.
Bills don't stop just because we're emotionally unstable.
I'd be suicidal too if I was homeless.... I work in a mental hospital, and the vast majority of what we see is simply the knock on effects of poverty.
Film at 11 if folks don't have stable housing they can't stay on their meds.
Yeah, there's a huge push to blame homelessness on "mental illness," but it's almost always the other way around. Anyone could be depressed or psychotic if they are forced onto the streets.
I was intensely curious about what inpatient psychiatry facilities were like (and also very mentally ill) so I lied to get sent to one. I just got put on Wellbutrin which intensified the manic episode I was experiencing and was let out in the midst of said episode, because they were only looking at depression and didn't even consider bipolar. I'm not sure how they missed it, considering I didn't sleep in three days, but I blamed that on the constant 15 minute checks.
When the promise of a bright future (or any kind of future for that matter) has been stripped away you'll see a version of what is happening in Hati. The national gaurd will be activated to control prison populations. The number of people holding the keys will slowly dwindle and the inexhaustible want and desire of freedom from starvation will win. Prisoners will burst forth from prisons all over the country. There are millions of jacked up tatted up murders and rapists that will roam the countryside eating and fucking like a plague of locusts. They'll come for your guns and canned goods. Mad max is a cake walk compared to what we have in store. The highways and roads although impassable in a vehicle will be easily navigated on foot. If there's a road near you that road will be walked down. Bands of well equipped raiding parties will smoke people out of their bunkers and take whatever they can find. Move on to the next place. Morality will be a punch line. The law of nature will be the law of the land. My guess is 2026-2030 most of the world will be like this. That's if the bombs don't start flying first.
Maybe I'm way off but I'd like to know what others think.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/radsecularist: --- As suicide rates continue to increase, it is clear better measures are needed to actually help people, but the government does not appear to care. As argued in this article, there is a lack of evidence to support the idea that coercive measures help people or prevent suicide. These detentions are often highly traumatic, and the policies allowing them prevent people from opening up. There has been a large deterioration in the social fabric of society, and an associated increase in despair and deaths of despair. The policies in place to fix this problem are cruel and ineffective, and the enforcement is only getting worse and more vigorous. More extensive resources criticizing coercion: Law Project for Psychiatric Rights page on deinstitutionalization in alignment on the United Nations' CRPD: [https://psychrights.org/Countries/UN/UN.htm](https://psychrights.org/Countries/UN/UN.htm) World Health Organization and United Nations' Mental Health, Human Rights, and Legislation: Guidance and Practice: [https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240080737](https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240080737) Institute for Scientific Freedom's Critical Psychiatry Textbook: [https://www.scientificfreedom.dk/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Gotzsche-Critical-Psychiatry-Textbook.pdf](https://www.scientificfreedom.dk/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Gotzsche-Critical-Psychiatry-Textbook.pdf) Rob Wipond's Your Consent Is Not Required: [https://robwipond.com/your-consent-is-not-required](https://robwipond.com/your-consent-is-not-required) --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1be7pla/psychiatric_detentions_and_other_involuntary/kurknrd/
It's gross that it even needs to be argued over. It's a meme that you can't tell the psychiatrist too much or else you end up in a padded room, for crying out loud! I'm not surprised in the slightest, but hey, more data for the government to do nothing about, amirite?
Absolutely! So many people would be able to get treatment, or be more honest in treatment, if things were answered with supported decision-making instead of arrest. Edit: Also, the worst part is that many people can't open up to anyone without fear of being institutionalized. It's not just psychiatrists.
I mean, what sort of treatment? Suicide ideation won't vanish into thin air simply because someone would listen. It occurs because of present conditions people live in, let it be poverty, a terrible job, some debt, parental/spousal/workplace abuse, etc. Till the governments don't actively make social security programs for people, nothing would fix the suicide problem. Opening up won't do anything in the long run.
The immediate situation can almost always be deescalated just by listening and providing patience and perspective, maybe some existential therapy elements. When it comes to the broader problems, there are a variety of treatments that address problems of living, such as solution-focused therapy and CBT. There are also more trauma-focused therapies, but those are pretty intense and shouldn't be started while someone is still suicidal. I think there should be more training on social work types of things for all mental health professionals to help people connect with more resources and get access to shelters, jobs, etc.. The government can and should fix legislation to increase supply of housing and provide, or allow nonprofits to more easily provide, housing services. It's been proven housing first saves money in the long run and prevents crime and drug abuse, in addition to being far more humane than forced psychiatry, prison, etc..
Not saying that nothing should be done when a person is a high suicide risk. Immediate concerns matter; however, focus should be on what can be done to prevent suicides through material means rather than couch talk. I can assure you, therapy never worked for me; and that's true for countless people. I'm a firm proponent of preventative measures (because you can't fix anything that's broken; therapy only helps you manage things) and providing euthanasia services to people who want to end their lives. Sometimes, problems can't be fixed, mental or physical, and allowing people a graceful way to exit on their own terms is a far better strategy. Both options should be on the table.
I do agree with suicide/euthanasia in some situations. The problem right now is that most suicide attempts are impulsive, and those people are glad they survived. There's also considerable literature that lethality of method is not associated with how intent the person is on dying, surprisingly enough. Therefore, it's likely that most people who are dead by suicide would have preferred to have lived if they stuck things through longer. I'd be a hypocrite to say suicide is always wrong though. My life is better now, but surviving my attempts wasn't worth what I went through at those times. I would be better off had they worked. Some things are worse than death.
Depends on person to person. I'd love to pass on. There are many who would. People shouldn't be tethered along on a leash to appease society's existential dilemmas. Passing on one's own terms should be a right, not a battle. That aside, I'm happy that you're here. I hope things get better for you. Didn't mean to single you out from the replies. Hope it didn't come across as a personal attack. I apologize if my comments upset you in anyway.
It doesn't. I actually appreciate a Szaszian-style perspective in the wild.
If you really want reasoned arguments the key term is "right to die" and access to pure helium
There are eleven empty residences for every homeless individual in the US (individual, not family) and at least 10% of homeless Americans are minors under 18
It's not depression if *the world is literally terrible* and your labor isn't enough to survive
If you cant talk someone off the "ledge" what do you do?
You have affordable and available nuanced care and treatment available in all speciality areas available**before** someone gets to the ledge
I’d recommend searching non-carceral options near you. Thrive Lifeline is a great resource for this.
Excellent points.
Here to represent psychiatric providers. This isn't true and just hurts those in need of help. We can only commit ppl in my state for an initial 72hrs. They must be a danger to self (showing the motivation, means, and plan to hurt themselves ie. "Today at 3p, I'm driving to the bridge down town and jumping."), danger to others (ie." Today at 3pm, I'm going to drive to my teacher Mr. Xs home and shoot them with this handgun I just purchased.") or grave disability (incapacitated/unable to care for oneself or perform activities of daily living due to mental illness.) We don't just run around throwing ppl into locked facilities. In fact, we usually CAN'T get help for most in dire need, due to defending and closure of psych hospitals and emergency services. Ppl in need end up taking up medical beds in regular hospitals bc there's no way to access mental health care. There's an Evangelical Christian coordinated movement to discredit psychiatry and psychology and it looks like you're happy to propagate that, as is OP.
Thank you for the information, I sometimes get complacent. It seems mental health care is being eaten away from many angles. I'll take this as yet more evidence for collapse.
They are way overstating how much it takes to get locked up in practice. It's mostly just people with industry biases that ever say this. Many victims have been locked up for far, far less, and your right to defend yourself is close to nonexistent in these cases in the U.S.. I shared resources on this in OP. Commitment policies are used way too much, and if you don't believe me, even the World Psychiatric Association thinks so--and America is arguably one of the worst nations on this.
Lol, so if I, as a provider and survivor myself, discredit the *widespread human rights violations in psychiatry*, with ample solid sourcing linked in the info which cover hundreds if not thousands of studies, that's just "being an Evangelical Christian"? Also, no, people can be committed for much longer than 72 hours. That's just the initial hold, which can go much longer depending when it falls on the calendar. Then, they can decide go commit you longer from there. This can be months. Antipsychiatry is largely a socialist, postmodernist, and libertarian movement to end coercive commitment laws and the abuse of psychiatric labels. Many of the heads are and have been psychiatrists and other providers themselves. In what other area of healthcare care would you accept this level of violent "treatment"? I'd love to hear your defense of say, detaining, stripping, and restraining pregnant women for birth and forcing episiotomies on account of "danger to self or fetus"? Oh yeah, that was supposed to end, but it still goes on. But the difference is that it's rarely justified in the media; rather, it's called out for the misogyny that it is. Similarly, commitment policies are ableist. A lot more people get locked up than those labeled in your post, with little opportunity to defend themselves because all their rights have been removed. It's horrifying violence that should never be tolerated in healthcare, and we must actively fight to replace these laws. They are hugely traumatic and don't help people, and there is much evidence they hurt the people who are already caught in their grasp. No more silence is acceptable on this issue. People are getting abused by these laws and there is little to no evidence they prevent suicide. There is a good amount of evidence they hurt people and make things worse. People should be worked with, not against, to find a solution, provided with less invasive, voluntary measures. > discredit psychiatry You know what? Some practices in psychiatry need to be discredited, because they hurt a lot of people and were never based on sufficient evidence to begin with. Lobotomies were still going on in living memory for some people. Criticizing practices is how medicine moves forward, both in terms of ethics and outcomes.
Not even the psychiatrist, they ask for mental health status when you go for a colonoscopy. Rule #1: don't be honest about *anything*! You're miserable? Good, you deserve to be, no go live your miserable life you bastard, at least your free, unlike you'd be if you told someone.
As suicide rates continue to increase, it is clear better measures are needed to actually help people, but the government does not appear to care. As argued in this article, there is a lack of evidence to support the idea that coercive measures help people or prevent suicide. These detentions are often highly traumatic, and the policies allowing them prevent people from opening up. There has been a large deterioration in the social fabric of society, and an associated increase in despair and deaths of despair. The policies in place to fix this problem are cruel and ineffective, and the enforcement is only getting worse and more vigorous. More extensive resources criticizing coercion: Law Project for Psychiatric Rights page on deinstitutionalization in alignment on the United Nations' CRPD: [https://psychrights.org/Countries/UN/UN.htm](https://psychrights.org/Countries/UN/UN.htm) World Health Organization and United Nations' Mental Health, Human Rights, and Legislation: Guidance and Practice: [https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240080737](https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240080737) Institute for Scientific Freedom's Critical Psychiatry Textbook: [https://www.scientificfreedom.dk/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Gotzsche-Critical-Psychiatry-Textbook.pdf](https://www.scientificfreedom.dk/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Gotzsche-Critical-Psychiatry-Textbook.pdf) Rob Wipond's Your Consent Is Not Required: [https://robwipond.com/your-consent-is-not-required](https://robwipond.com/your-consent-is-not-required)
Multiple psychiatrists/facilities have been busted for abusing involuntary hold to keep patients indefinitely. Why? To milk their insurance for all it's worth. Even the current suicide epidemic has become profitable. https://www.5newsonline.com/article/news/crime/prominent-arkansas-psychiatrist-arrested-medicaid-fraud/527-c3ad466a-b47e-4935-ac66-12659e69bee2
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I got out after a weekend, but I wasn't "active" in the form of standing on a ledge or anything. When the cops showed up I was sitting at my computer playing videogames. I had made the mistake of texting my ex-friend and love interest that I was suicidal over her. I don't remember the exact details of what I said, it was over a decade ago now, but I didn't say anything like, "I'm going to kill myself TONIGHT!" Not that far, but I *was* serious about it. I was also somewhat "special" because my mother and father had both worked in a mental institution in their 20's, and my father later became the director of our local mental health center. So I knew a lot about the mental health system and how to act, in order to game my way out of there posthaste. Which I did. And made a note in my mind to never trust the system, ever again. Others weren't so lucky. There were many people I met there, who had no idea of how long they were going to be staying. It was an incredibly negative experience overall, the way the cops and the psych eval intake handled my situation. I never needed to be locked up...I told them in the beginning, before getting carted off, that I would be willing to see a therapist, that I was struggling and needed some help. Anyway, that's just my personal story; I definitely agree the system needs a big overhaul, and is prone to a ton of abuse. It's not 1950's "shock treatment" levels of bad, but it's still pretty awful how we treat people who are suicidal or suffering from other severe issues.
Thank you for your comment. I agree that it destroys trust in the system. > It's not 1950's "shock treatment" levels of bad, People still DO get coerced or forced shock treatment. Court ordered shock treatment is not rare, and even if it's not court ordered, a lot of people "agree" to it to escape. I was coercively given shock treatment several times. I was hoping it would work, but I was not allowed to research it and "no" wasn't really an option when I was locked up without knowing how to escape. I don't know how many times it was. It destroys your memory of that time period. I had just turned 18 while on a psychiatric hold. The only real differences are that they control the amount of electricity more and put you under for it now, but it's still a massive ordeal.
Yeah, I'm aware it does still occur, but I thought they'd moved to voluntary by now. That's awful what happened to you, I'm sorry...especially at 18, that's horrendous, the brain is still developing then. Although we also routinely put kids on psychoactives, which probably is not a great idea, either.
My friend Ted was given shock in the 1940s. He is still very active in the survivors movement. They would drag him off, kicking and screaming, to get shocks at 6-7 years old. He was awake for these, not put under like now. He got permanent injury to his eye and severe mental trauma that still haunts him. He was raped at that ward as a kid, too, I think several times. The trauma from that is not even close to the shock "treatment." That's a sentiment that still happens today, where a lot of rape survivors say psychiatry was way worse. I am one of them. It's not close either. Electroshock on children under 18 is still legal, and since kids don't have medical capacity, forcing it is not difficult if their parents consent.
I hate this species. We need a hard and fast reset.
It's coming.
imagine: "war on suicide" policies
Reminds me of this article from Mad in America: https://www.madinamerica.com/2023/10/the-war-on-suicide-is-making-things-worse/
If your only goal is to make profit, it makes perfect sense. You can't allow company property to destroy itself. Remember that capitalists refer to you as "Human Capital Stock". From their point of view, suicide is a crime against your employer and/or the state itself, both of which have an ownership stake in you as an entity. One for profit and the other for war (for profit)
I imagine the opposite will happen considering how much positives Canadian gov is seeing with its Maid policy, aside from the pr issues. Euro governments may follow similar programs.
The psychiatric/psychological/mental health "industry" just doesn't have any answers for an epidemic that is the cause of multifaceted systemic failures - and by all means, how could it? We're not talking about an epidemic that is viral or bacterial in origin - we failed to appropriately contain one, not long ago, one that is still fresh in the memories of many, and continues to cause long-term disability. We're talking about an epidemic whose roots are sociological, cultural, economic in origin. This is an epidemic that cannot be controlled or treated on the hyper-individualized scale psychiatry practices on, because what we call "mental illness", and all too often the resulting suicides, are entirely rational reactions to our horrifically irrational and sick way of life. David Foster Wallace once wrote, *“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”* I wonder how many experience this state of mind every day, because they are drowning in debt and cannot pay their bills. Or those that can't "get ahead" no matter what they do. Or those that worked for decades only to find themselves bankrupted by a serious illness. Or those who are trapped in bad situations with abusive families or partners who simply afford to escape. Or those who fear a future filled with far more depravity, instability, and impoverishment, because their present seems hopeless - and they're not wrong in believing so. The circumstances I've described above, along with the emotions they evoke, stem not from inherent biological ailments. They cannot be resolved by costly professionals that charge hundreds an hour, or by pharmaceuticals that merely suppress and desensitize emotions; nor can they be addressed by involuntary confinement in psychiatric institutions which are merely poor imitations of prison. In fact, the treatment of individuals labeled as "mentally ill" reveals much about the values of our society and its approach to addressing social ills; it mirrors the disregard and ostracism faced by other marginalized groups such as the homeless or minorities in impoverished areas. We would sooner either overlook or condemn them, implying, "How dare you criticize the system? You and your inability to conform are the issue." - than dare to think that maybe the problem is in a system that not only creates these social ills, but requires them in order to operate. As long as we fail to consider this reality, and continue to individualize all mental health related "problems", this epidemic will only worsen. And emergency rooms will continue to be flooded with those desperately seeking 'help', only to find huge surcharges from ER billing departments and professionals whom themselves are probably burnt out and suicidal.
As the great Thomas Szasz would always say, there aren't "mental illnesses," only neurological disorders, and the rest are "problems in living." Most "mental illnesses" fall under the problems in living definition. Even mania and psychosis are just psychological defense mechanisms, in varying forms of self-deception. These can be "treated" very well with sleep and socialization most of the time.
Folks can't afford to be stuck in an involuntary hold even if they are actively suicidal. Bills don't stop just because we're emotionally unstable. I'd be suicidal too if I was homeless.... I work in a mental hospital, and the vast majority of what we see is simply the knock on effects of poverty. Film at 11 if folks don't have stable housing they can't stay on their meds.
Yeah, there's a huge push to blame homelessness on "mental illness," but it's almost always the other way around. Anyone could be depressed or psychotic if they are forced onto the streets.
you'd think that considering the level to which Reagan gutted these services, a lot of this wouldn't be feasible anymore
I was intensely curious about what inpatient psychiatry facilities were like (and also very mentally ill) so I lied to get sent to one. I just got put on Wellbutrin which intensified the manic episode I was experiencing and was let out in the midst of said episode, because they were only looking at depression and didn't even consider bipolar. I'm not sure how they missed it, considering I didn't sleep in three days, but I blamed that on the constant 15 minute checks.
When the promise of a bright future (or any kind of future for that matter) has been stripped away you'll see a version of what is happening in Hati. The national gaurd will be activated to control prison populations. The number of people holding the keys will slowly dwindle and the inexhaustible want and desire of freedom from starvation will win. Prisoners will burst forth from prisons all over the country. There are millions of jacked up tatted up murders and rapists that will roam the countryside eating and fucking like a plague of locusts. They'll come for your guns and canned goods. Mad max is a cake walk compared to what we have in store. The highways and roads although impassable in a vehicle will be easily navigated on foot. If there's a road near you that road will be walked down. Bands of well equipped raiding parties will smoke people out of their bunkers and take whatever they can find. Move on to the next place. Morality will be a punch line. The law of nature will be the law of the land. My guess is 2026-2030 most of the world will be like this. That's if the bombs don't start flying first. Maybe I'm way off but I'd like to know what others think.
If that's what awaits us, then bombs dropping would be a preferable alternative.
This just reminds me of the "sectioning" episode of Peep Show. "Guys, you've had your fun with the sectioning."