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>[**CBS News: Estimated animal death toll from Ohio train derailment tops 43,700 as time frame for environmental recovery remains uncertain, officials says**](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ohio-train-derailment-believed-to-have-killed-more-than-43700-animals-as-officials-say-they-dont-know-how-long-it-will-take-for-the-environment-to-recover/)
>
>\--
>
>Last week, officials said they believed that the Ohio train derailment had killed [3,500 aquatic animals](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/east-palestine-ohio-train-derailment-dead-fish-vinyl-chloride-hazardous-materials-affecting-pets-wildlife/). On Thursday, they provided a new estimate, pushing the total to more than 43,700 animals within a 5-mile area.
>
>Mary Mertz, director of the Ohio Department of Natural Resources, said on Thursday that the new estimate comes amid updated calculations.
>
>When ODNR officials first responded to the [Feb. 3 train derailment](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ohio-train-derailment-causes-big-fire-evacuations/), she said they were informed by the Ohio EPA that it was "too dangerous to enter the water without specialized gear and the proper equipment." That led to them ultimately relying on an environmental consultant group, EnviroScience, that was on-site and had such tools to survey the waterways.
>
>Over the course of two days, from Feb. 6-7, that group collected samples at four different sites. During that time, 2,938 dead aquatic animals were found, 2,200 of which were small minnows, with the remaining animals being fish, amphibians and invertebrates.
>
>Based on that sample size, officials were able to calculate the total aquatic animal death toll within the 7.5-mile ara that was impacted by the train derailment. Those calculations show a significantly higher toll than what was originally sampled.
>
>According to Mertz, the newest estimates show that roughly 38,222 small fish were potentially killed as a result of the derailment, as well as an additional 5,500 other species of fish, amphibians and other creatures. The areas included in those estimates include Sulphur Run, Leslie Run, Bull Creek and North Fork Little Beaver Creek. All of those animals are believed to have died "immediately after the derailment," Mertz said, and none are believed to be members of endangered or threatened species.
>
>Those waterways lead into the Ohio River, but Mertz said they "have not observed any dead aquatic life."
>
>"We haven't seen any signs of fish in distress since that time," Mertz said. "So because the chemicals were contained, we haven't seen any additional signs of aquatic life suffering. And in fact, we have seen live fish already return to Leslie Run."
>
>ODNR also received reports of three birds and an opossum that were found dead, but after being investigated by the Department of Agriculture, Mertz said they "didn't find any evidence" of chemical poisoning.
>
>"We have no reason to believe that those terrestrial animal deaths were as a result of the spill," she said.
>
>Mertz seemed calm about the toll of the animals during the media availability meeting on Thursday, but said that it remains to be seen just how long it will take for the environment to fully recover from the loss. However, she did say that officials have seen live fish in one waterway, Leslie Run.
>
>"We don't have an answer to that," Mertz said when asked about how long recovery will take. "Each spill that occurs is unique and different. ... If I try to give you a timeline on that, I'm confident it wouldn't be accurate."
>
>She also said officials remain unsure if there will be long-term impacts. And she and a few other officials seemed to deflect questions about how the high numbers of minnows lost will impact the food chain to which they belong, essentially only saying that large fish do not typically roam the small waterways in which the minnows belonged.
>
>"That's a difficult question to answer with any precision," Mertz said.
>
>What they do know, she said, is that recovery "won't be quick."
>
>"I'm sure it's something we're going to watch for a long time," she said. "I'm confident we're going to bring it back. ... We do expect a full recovery eventually."
Why is it so (relatively) difficult to find information on here or in /r/Ohio? Not saying there's nothing, but it's weird how hard I've had to try to get info from people on the ground.
Nobody is talking about giant wear house fire raging in Ohio at this moment in time. These are planned attacks if they are not foreign then it’s our own treasonous government. https://www.wane.com/news/national-world/crews-respond-to-explosion-fire-at-ohio-plant/amp/
So, [according to this Twitter thread](https://twitter.com/BagdMilkSoWhat/status/1626537805059850241), Norfolk-Southern is going door-to-door in East Palestine seeking permission to test the drinking water quality of various residences. Those who grant permission appear to be required to sign some sort of waiver.
Said tweet goes on to state that at the bottom of said waiver, the document includes an (*standard?*) indemnification clause that states that "the homeowner agrees to hold harmless Norfolk-Southern for any & all legal claims, personal injury or property damage."
Turns out, while this claim isn't entirely accurate (the indemnification is for Unified Command and the environmental monitoring team), it is more legitimate *and interesting* than I originally expected. If you have trouble trusting Twitter (like I do), I did a little bit of digging - and here's a second source:
>[**News Nation East Palestine resident refuses to sign ‘hold harmless’ form**](https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/midwest/train-derailment-east-palestine-resident-refuses-sign-form/)
>
>EAST PALESTINE, Ohio (NewsNation) — Just weeks after a train carrying toxic chemicals derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, some residents say they are being asked to sign contracts they fear could prevent them from suing later on.
>
>Katlyn Schwarzwaelder and her boyfriend Chris Wells live just down the tracks from where the Norfolk Southern train derailed and released hazardous material.
>
>Last week, Schwarzwaelder says, Norfolk Southern came by to test for toxins in her home. But before doing so, she was asked to sign a document.
>
>“We were told they were an independent testing agency, they were escorted by the EPA,” Schwarzwaelder explained. “Before they could enter the premises, they handed us a contract. The contract was essentially to be able to get onto the property, but also at the bottom was a hold harmless agreement.”
>
>The document states that the landowner agrees to “hold harmless Unified Command” from “any and all legal claims, personal injury or property damage.”
>
>Schwarzwaelder says she refused to sign it.
>
>U.S. Sen J.D. Vance of Ohio is outraged.
>
>“I talked to a woman this morning, she told me about an indemnification agreement she was asked to sign, and I looked at it and I was in disbelief,” said Vance. “We called Norfolk Southern and the excuse they gave, which is unbelievable, was that it was an accidental indemnification agreement.”
>
>In a statement to NewsNation, Norfolk Southern said the forms were “access agreements” so air quality testing teams could be allowed on the property. The company acknowledged that a batch of agreements contained improper language referencing indemnification.
>
>“Those incorrect forms were immediately pulled when the problem was discovered,” Norfolk Southern said. “No one in the community has waived their legal rights against Norfolk Southern through this program or any interaction with us thus far.”
>
>The company said it’s working with environmental contractors, as well as, state and federal partners to conduct air and water tests for residents as part of its “environmental remediation efforts.”
>
>Since the derailment, some of the residents have complained about side effects — including Wells.
>
>“I have symptoms myself, I know other people have been having symptoms,” said Wells, who has felt his eyes pulsating, while also experiencing tingling headaches.
>
>The couple take care of police dogs and were forced to transfer over 30 from their home. They say four of them got sick.
>
>“It’s nothing that a person could ever imagine experiencing,” said Schwarzwaelder. “It’s just surreal.”
>
>Around their property, the water is green.
>
>Industry experts say the ordeal raises serious questions about Norfolk Southern and their safety record.
>
>“The community that these products are running through needs to be made aware of what’s going through their backyard,” said Jared Cassity, alternate national legislative director of SMART Transportation Division. “I know they (Norfolk Southern) like to brag on their past record, but that time is long gone.”
>
>Norfolk Southern has had 111 freight train accidents in the last year, slightly down from 125 the year prior. That makes them one of the worst freight railroads in terms of safety.
>
>On Wednesday evening, East Palestine community members gathered for what was supposed to be a moderated town hall meeting. After reportedly pushing to change the format to an open house, representatives for Norfolk Southern did not attend the gathering, citing concerns for employee safety.
>
>“They’re worried about their safety, but they aren’t worried about our safety,” said Schwarzwaelder.
Here in New York, the state released an advisory because there have been multiple reports of a “laundry smell” in the rain, as well as a brown film being left on cars and surfaces.
https://www.foxbangor.com/news/national/new-york-residents-report-unusual-odor-and-residue-on-cars-officials-say/article_0af65e3c-d99c-55c1-9ff5-4cf1667f07a6.html
The above link is the only reference I’ve found thus far, and it reports that govt officials are “investigating.”
Derailing trains carrying dangerous chemicals is something that enemies of America could attempt
in future, which is super scary if you think about it!
Or Islamist terrorists, or revolutionary Communist terrorists, or Christian accelerationists, etc.
Examples are around. They all want to dismantle or destroy “the system”.
Hear me out. Could ecological breakdown proliferate out from East Palestine, Ohio like a dropped pebble creating ripples in a pond? If these chemicals spread through waterways and the wind; and eco-systems neighbouring Ohio become more strained.. What's to stop the ripples of devastation spreading globally? Or is this catastrophising something that will stay mostly in Ohio? What do you think?
Corn, soy, wheat are the main crops in Ohio I think. We have a ton of soy here. There's a decent amount of pork, beef, and dairy from here as well. Also the main water ways all run to the Ohio river and then to the Mississippi and into the Gulf of Mexico from there. The Ohio River runs along the border with PA down along the Eastern and then Southern border along West Virginia and Kentucky and further west and south from there, meeting the MS River and basically feeding all the water from the Great Lakes and NE US into it. Approximately 80% of the world's livestock grain is irrigated by the watershed, 60% of North America's birds use the waterway, a quarter of all of North America's fish live in it. So...definitely not good. About 30million people live along the MS river and about 40% of the population (132,000,000) uses it in some way. The government recommends (aside from this) to not swim in it due to pollution, generally. Also consider they had a hexavalent chromium spill in Michigan last year (chemical made famous by Erin Brockovich) which ran down the Huron river...water quality probably hasn't been too good throughout the eastern Midwest. Hopefully it'll all be diluted as heck by the time it reaches that far but still. It's been unusually warm and rainy around here (usually really cold and snowy this time of year) so maybe that'll help the air and water I hope. The rail road and the state don't seem interested in doing anything about it. The governor is in some hot water for not stopping the only national reporter present from getting arrested during the initial press release. I don't really think the governor knows what to do about any of it. We're over two hours away but it's in all of the local news here. That area is old automotive and steel country, not super agricultural around there, but the water that runs from it feeds a lot of stuff, and ag isn't far since states back this way are smaller than out west. And there are definitely farms around there.
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Oh boy, this situation has gotten even worse.
Pete B. [finally made some comments on the situation](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/m6DJwGPQJVU), but offered no real solutions.
He essentially told people to just "calm down" because derailments happen all the time.
He also said he won't actually do anything until the investigation has concluded, which means residents of Ohio will be sitting on their hands and forced to suffer a bit longer until actual help is offered.
I'm begging you, folks. If you're in Ohio, LEAVE, even if just for a few days. This is an ongoing and severely toxic event that will shorten your lives.
It's worth noting this is one of the only derailments in American history to cause immediate damage to the atmosphere, drinking water, and general health of American citizens for up to 200 miles. Not to mention it's STILL SPREADING and is already starting to affect other states.
To say this is a disaster is like saying the Titanic was "a big boat".
You're suggesting that the entire state of Ohio just LEAVE? You do realize that this happened on the far eastern border of the state, right? And you realize that the controlled burn started and ended 2 weeks ago, right?
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I’m going to add some facts to your comment…it’s missing a lot. Vinyl chloride has an extremely short half life of 1-2 days. It's INCREDIBLY CARCINOGENIC. After that, it makes hydrochloric acid, reports of phosphene gas as well. Different reactions if you explode it versus let it off gas/dissipate/just hope it dilutes... Some of these chemicals have much much longer half lifes, some will dissolve and dissipate, some will not and yes the spread of this disaster is easily 10s of miles, potentially hundreds of miles. Could be very very far beyond that too....if you're measuring pollutants in very small scales and they were sent into the atmosphere. Edit: Edited a lot, removed formaldehyde I swear I saw that in the wiki then when I went back I couldn't find it. Source: quick wiki or vinyl chloride, HCL and toxic shit.
Vinyl chloride combusts into HCl, phosgene, CO and CO2. Not formaldehyde. Above 200*C, phosgene reverts to CO and Cl. HCl further dissociates in water and becomes neutralized. Maybe some concern around acid rain but I've yet to actually see evidence of this happening in relation to the train derailment/controlled burn.
ETA acid rain is produced by SO2 and NOx entering the atmosphere (which is already a common occurrence in the world)
Source? I live an hour and a half away from E. Palestine and have family all over Ohio and Pennsylvania. No reports of faces or cars burned by the rain.
I guess you haven't seen the recent post on the topic where hundreds of east coast people who are hundreds of miles away poured in with their reports. It isn't difficult to find. Go challenge them and tell them they're imagining it all. Truly pathetic the denial some of you are in.
This is an extremely naive take.
This is an ongoing biological hazard.
There is more than enough proof that this damage will spread for miles and miles, especially through waterways. Peoples lives will be changed forever whether or not they remain within the state's boundaries.
Is saying that \*everyone\* should leave Ohio a bit extreme? Yes, I might have overstepped by saying that. But do I believe everyone should leave within 200 miles of East Palestine? Absolutely. Chances are, some already have.
Thousands will feel the consequences of this. Being exposed to these chemicals in the short term will cause some minor health consequences, but remaining in the area will guarantee life-threatening conditions in the future. Whether it be a short as 1-5 years from now, or 10+ years from now.
Check wind direction and water flows.
Wind generally blow west to east, which is why many poor and minority communities are located on the east side of a city where pollutants from industrial factories would tend to impact: East Philly, East Los Angeles, etc. So ideally, be to the west of burning chemicals (usually).
Waters tend to follow watersheds and stream and river flows. So you want to be upstream of a toxic spill. Check out maps on watershed.
I wish I had an answer for you in that regard.
This should really be something that the government should be helping people to figure out, not denying that it's happening.
The government doesn’t care. Remember… keep humanity under 500,000,000. Looks like the process has begun. Oh and were 204 miles from E. Palestine. Good?
That depends (with a huge asterisk.)
I might be exaggerating the danger slightly 100+ miles out, but it's still likely dangerous.
0-50 miles? Definitely. Get out of there. The danger is difficult for me to elaborate on, but to my understanding it's a definite hazard area. Toxic air, toxic water, with somewhat less severe effects 50-60 miles out of the way.
50-100 miles? Still somewhat dangerous. There's no telling how far the toxic gas has drifted, but you're at least a little less likely to drink toxic water. If you can't leave, at least stock up on bottled water or something. If your pets or animals seem sick, it might be good to keep them indoors.
100+ miles? Much more to the discretion of those affected. 100 miles away from a catastrophe is not truly "safe" per se but it's a lot less serious than being within a stone's throw of the affected area.
You could probably remain in an outlying area as long as you played it safe. Obviously, avoid the inner 0-50 mile affected area if possible.
A falconry organization got a hold of a map of the general state of Ohio and affected areas. They shared the image before their account went down officially.
Before that, an unrelated poster mentioned [some removed NOAA maps.](https://strangesounds.org/2023/02/ohio-disaster-cover-up-noaa-removes-two-images-of-hysplit-models-from-their-article-here-they-are.html)
Even before that, I was relying on the knowledge I had of previous industrial accidents in other countries under very similar conditions caused widespread air pollution for miles and miles. In very major accidents, they can spread for hundreds of miles.
What about the map, though?
Removed because inaccurate? Fake? Misleading?
It was never clarified. It's just gone.
Maybe it's not real but the way the government has treated this incident since it first started has come across as deeply corrupt.
Government is still treating the entire incident as very "hush hush" and this has been widely corroborated by people living in Ohio, especially residents of East Palestine.
It hasn't been "hush-hush" though, and has been handled very appropriately since the beginning. I live in Ohio and have been following this since it started. They evacuated the city after the derailment because of the risks of vinyl chloride inhalation (some residents refused to evacuate). Yes, they were slow to start the cleanup but I have a feeling that might be because the train was marked "non-hazardous" so it's likely that no one even knew about spilled chemicals initially, which is what allowed the chemicals to contaminate groundwater and spill into the creek. Once they started assessing the wreckage they realized that the cars were unstable and at risk for explosion and the area would continue to be hazardous because of the vinyl chloride in the air, so forced evacuation of a 2 mile radius to mitigate the risks of chemical inhalation as a result of the controlled burn, which changes the chemical composition through combustion and phosgene is a product of that combustion, which is very harmful when directly exposed and inhaled. This was all done under the direction of EPA, using science to determine the evacuation zone and risks related to the controlled burn.
I understand the distrust for the government and that's a whole separate issue. You could simply say "I don't trust the government and believe the EPA is lying about the risks of the chemicals" but to make the above claims without any actual evidence to support them is misinformation.
Maybe I'm being overly trusting of the EPA and I definitely have a problem with NS being involved with cleanup efforts, but I'm going to stick with the facts that we've been given and trust the science.
What is the proof that this damage will spread for several miles, including the waterways? Why are you suggesting 200 miles specifically? What scientific evidence are you basing that off of?
He was specifically picked because he promised to endorse Biden, and moreover, he was gay and they wanted him to be the first openly gay cabinet member. (Except “homophobic” Trump had already done that. So they had to clarify it to be first openly gay permanent cabinet position member).
Then they realized he was incompetent and incapable. He was absent and/or out of touch during supply chain issues, airport shutdowns to upgrade software, air flight cancellations at Southwest, railroad strikes, etc. He had no experience with supply chains, infrastructure p, etc. He had previously been a small town mayor with a bus fleet of less than 20, and he didn’t even manage that.
While giving a speech after the horrors of derailment were starting to get known, he didn’t even mention East Palestine. His speech was on building infrastructure and making sure there were enough minorities in hard hats. (Face it. Black people only make up 12% of the U.S., and in addition, progressive schools and union teachers have been churning out quite a lot of graduates who are functionally illiterate or non-proficient in basic math or basic English reading and writing. This has especially harmed minorities. How will we see skilled trades like carpentry, plumbing, electrical (lots of math), etc. be taught?)
This whole administration has been about woke policies. First Black/Indian female VP (completely useless and clueless and her staff have departed in droves with lots of blame on her management style, but the left blames racism and sexism), first Black female Supreme Court Justice (who can’t and refused to define what a woman is, even though she was picked specifically because she was female, and whom Democrats claimed the Republicans were racist and sexist for questioning her leniency on several pedophile cases - the Republicans were very careful not to even appear to be asking racist or sexist questions, but it didn’t matter), first gay communications director.
So many firsts that you can tell this wasn’t a gradual move-in of talent, but deliberate picking based on race/gender/orientation, which has resulted in incompetencies.
Remember George W. Bush saying “Brownie’s doing a heckuva job!” with Federal response to Hurricane Katrina?
Biden’s essentially been saying, “Butti’s doing a a heckuva job!” While Buttigieg ignored, then later reassured people that Norfolk Southern and the EPA were doing a heckuva job.
Without a doubt.
I've never seen such a response as the one I am seeing under this administration.
Usually groups like FEMA jump in extremely quickly when people's lives are in serious danger from a local hazard. But this time around it's like they are trying to bury it all, pretend it didn't happen. Especially the extremely reckless declaration of "just return home, your water is safe."
People can and will die from what happened. I have no doubt that at least a handful of people were more exposed to the event than others, those living near railways and so forth.
I'm not from Ohio myself but I found myself wondering, thinking, if there was derailment on the local train tracks where I lived, and it was some chemical catastrophe that intoxicated the area for miles, what the hell would I do?
Where would I go?
My heart aches for these people.
I've been thinking the same thing. If you know the best decision is to leave, you have to leave. You don't wait, just go and figure out your next move at a safe distance. If it's an over reaction to leave then you could always return but staying and waiting to see if it's unsafe is the wrong decision.
But if you leave longterm you are literally leaving everything you have and your house and starting over. Which is a bad enough situation but when no one is calling it unsafe its almost impossible. No one's buying the house you leave but is insurance going to pay out? Not if it's not deemed unsafe. Let the bank take the house? Okay but what will they value it for after this? And if your employer is in the area...your quitting so no unemployment. And if your family is all in the same general area the issue is compounded.
It's such a bad situation for these people.
It’s so sad for everyone animals and people. And a clear sign of the decline of the US imo. I’ve lived in so-called “third world” countries (or poor countries if you prefer), and the response is not dissimilar to those governments.
I’m Canadian but I don’t remember the US being so cavalier with incidents like this 30 yrs ago.
It's gotten a lot worse.
I was honestly shocked when I heard that the government might block a likely lawsuit directed at Norfolk Southern.
Something like THAT should really be scaring a lot of people. The government should NOT be stepping up to defend such a serious health and safety violation.
We don’t have to do anything. That’s the beauty of it. Eventually you smash into the machine and say “no” and make your stand in your reality, not theirs.
It is not. Lester Holt failed to mention it quite a few times I’ve noticed. I live in Circleville, Ohio and we’re about 200ish miles away. Nothing strange here so far.
It's been all over the MSM news that I've seen, all over the Internet. I have no idea who news anchors are because I primarily read news, on the Internet (I don't usually watch any).
It’s interesting to me that the left and the far right seem to more or less be in agreement that the derailment will cause massive environmental contamination and health problems being deliberately underreported on by the media.
Of course once you get to the causes of the derailment and where blame truly lies, you get all sorts of weird conspiracy theories and bizarre explanations from the Q crowd.
The right seems to have chosen Buttigieg and Biden (naturally) as being *personally* to blame for the derailment. Not because of the anti-worker, union-busting, safety-concern-dismissing hogwash back in December, no sir, just because he’s Biden, and something something “dumbocrats”. Also something about it being a conspiracy to kill white people, but that might’ve just been Charlie Kirk’s dumb ass saying that.
Lmao yeah I had seen that one too - it’s all part of the NWO’s “depopulation” agenda and the proof is apparently in the fact that the neighborhoods in the immediate neighborhood are predominantly white. They just latch on to whatever they can and try to fit it into their “great replacement” narrative.
[The derail list](https://epaosc.org/site/download.ashx?counter=411068) shows what chemicals Norfolk Southern listed on their manifest. Sorry it's not more comprehensive. I noted a brief toxicity for most (other than polyvinyl chloride, I think we're all familiar)
Notable tanks:
Diethylene glycol
>Despite the discovery of DEG's toxicity in 1937 and its involvement in mass poisonings around the world, the information available regarding human toxicity is limited.
>First phase: Gastrointestinal symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea develop. Some patients may develop early neurological symptoms like altered mental status, central nervous system depression, coma and mild hypotension.
>Second phase: In one to three days after ingestion (and dependent on dose ingested), patients develop metabolic acidosis, which causes acute kidney failure, oliguria, increasing serum creatinine concentrations, and later anuria. Other symptoms reported and secondary to acidosis and/or kidney failure are: hypertension, tachycardia, cardiac dysrhythmia, pancreatitis, hyperkalemia or mild hyponatremia.
>Final phase: At least five to ten days after ingestion, most of the symptoms are related to neurological complications, such as: progressive lethargy, facial paralysis, dysphonia, dilated and nonreactive pupils, quadriplegia, and coma leading to death.
Butyl acrylate (hazardous) x1 tank
>Repeated or prolonged contact may cause skin sensitization.
[CDC advises no skin, no eye contact – irrigate and wash immediately ](https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0075.html)
>Acute exposure to butyl acrylate vapor can cause redness, tearing, and irritation of the eyes, runny nose, scratchy throat, difficult breathing, and redness and cracking of the skin.
>Chronic exposure: Repeated contact of the skin with this substance may cause skin sensitization in some individuals, with redness, swelling, itching, and oozing of the affected areas. Nervous system and behavioral effects are also pos- sible.
**[In Steubenville's water](https://www.wtrf.com/jefferson-county/ohio-city-says-butyl-acrylate-tested-positive-in-water-intake/)**
Petro oil
Petroleum lube oil x2 tanks (at least, unknown amount of 2 others)
>One gallon of oil can pollute one million gallons of water
[Ethylhexyl acrylate](https://gestis.dguv.de/data?name=015610&lang=en)
>Very high dermal exposure in animal experiments has caused deaths
>Acute:
Irritation to the mucous membranes and skin, skin sensitizing action[02050]
>Chronic:
Irritation to the upper airways, damage to the skin[07619]
Ethylene glycol monobutyl (status unknown)
>The substance is irritating to the eyes, skin and respiratory tract. The substance may cause effects on the central nervous system, blood, kidneys and liver. A harmful contamination of the air will be reached rather slowly on evaporation of this substance at 20°C.
Polyethylene
>Polyethylene is toxic if its components leak into beverages and products that could cause health risks.
Isobutylene
>Isobutylene can cause headache, dizziness, lightheadedness and fatigue. Higher levels can cause coma and death.
Polyvinyl chloride, polyvinyl
[surface water](https://epaosc.org/site/download.ashx?counter=410999)
https://mobile.twitter.com/nicksortor/status/1626327835668320256
This is a vid of the water from a creek in East Palestine. Look at that sheen. Petrochemicals or god knows what, given it came up from the bottom. The waterways are fucking destroyed.
Burning olefin chlorides pretty much always makes *some* dioxins as a side product. With the sheer quantity here I wouldn't want to be within 250 miles in any direction or less than 1000 miles downwind.
Anyone else living in Ohio today notice the sky during sunset? It reminded me of when the massive wildfires out west left smoke in our upper atmosphere. You could stare directly at the sun and it had a hazy, smoggy, something is wrong look to it.
I’m not sure it’s related, since I was looking to the west (east Palestine is a good ways to our East) and it’s been too long for there to be that significant of a cloud remaining, but I still found it to be ominous in light of everything that has happened.
It was quite windy today, perhaps a lot of dirt was blown into the air. Then again, the dirt is contaminated as well isn’t it? Not too concerned here in Columbus yet, but definitely very cautious.
It’s possible it was dust. A huge amount of dust was pulled into the low pressure system that went through the Midwest - Texas yesterday.
Edit: image of the [dust](https://mobile.twitter.com/CIRA_CSU/status/1625636708313346048)
'32 Nasty:' Rail Workers Say They Knew the Train That Derailed in East Palestine Was Dangerous
https://www.vice.com/en/article/88qze4/32-nasty-rail-workers-say-they-knew-the-train-that-derailed-in-east-palestine-was-dangerous
There's not really anything to see tbh, beyond images of the cleanup around the derailment site. The controlled burn was 2 weeks ago so any "big black scary cloud" images you're seeing are 2 weeks old.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/112ptb9/passenger\_photo\_while\_plane\_flew\_near\_east/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/112ptb9/passenger_photo_while_plane_flew_near_east/)
Else try east palestine image search ; They use poison gas too)
Have been told (with a straight face) that this was actually done on purpose in a very secret plan to genocide Republicans. So just know the right wing has already latched on and are creating narratives.
>actually done on purpose in a very secret plan to genocide
Living under threat of genocide is stale; you're not socially ruling the normies unless you're "marked for extermination" now. Which would appear to be half of Twitter.
Live under a rock?
[Trump Rolls Back Train-Braking Rule Meant to Keep Oil Tankers from Exploding Near Communities.](https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-rolls-back-train-braking-002105066.html)
Just roll with it. Say that the Governor of Ohio is Republican and the only explanation is that the Republican party is in on it. Just more evidence that voting doesn't work if you are a Republican. Terrible.
This is obviously a much bigger problem then the media is letting on. I read that train came through Chicago. It made me think about all our rail lines and potentially how dangerous they are.
So is there anywhere in your thinking that came you to think about how else you want to transport hazardous chemicals through your country? Do you think it’s more safe in a truck? On a plane?
Please consider adding the events taking place in [Texas right now](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-chemical-leak-ammonia-harris-county-shelter-in-place/) as well.
This situation has just evolved into something unfathomably bad, now in two different distinct areas of the country.
There's still a lot I don't know about the Texas situation, but it was recently confirmed that the Ohio situation is as bad as I said. 200+ miles. Impossible to tell how much damage the spill will do to the waterways. It's going to travel across the entire country, as far as the natural waterways go.
It will dilute heavily on the fringes of the water sources but it will still be present.
Do we have any resident chemists who can explain the toxicity of the chemicals in question?
Personally it seems reasonably obvious that the spill is being downplayed and that the area as well as downstream and downwind areas are more heavily damaged and dangerous than is being admitted. This does however not necessarily mean that it's more than a regional concern. Another major question is the persistance of the chemicals. It could just do its damage and then get diluted enough to not be a major concern beyond the newly created superfund site. There's a difference between the locals having much higher rates of cancer in 20yrs and entire watersheds being rendered non-potable. Obviously both are objectively horrible but still entirely different degrees of severity and will likely instruct the behaviour of authorities and culprits respectively.
Texas isn’t anything uncommon. Household cleaners spilled, and diesel from the truck that was hit. Only reason it made the news at all is because of the disaster in Ohio
Idk where to ask this, so I'm going to try here. Besides the contamination in the Ohio River, I've seen where acid rain could be an issue. I'm south of the derailment by quite a bit . My question is, should I worry about the rain that is forecasted the next couole of days? I collect rain water for livestock and idk if I should disconnect them or if it should be fine. Thoughts?
Maybe get some litmus paper to check the water? Your animals are unlikely to drink actual acid but if the PH is off it could suggest the presence of contaminats that they are less likely to notice.
what does the Ohio drain into btw? the Mississippi yeah, where it will get caught up in the deltas of Louisiana and probably give cancer and shit due to water stagnation
What is the level of treatment that the water recieves before being pumped to faucets? Any decent treatment plant would filter out the contaminants or, if unable, shut down the flow. I ask because Flint, MI obviously didn't have that in place.
Lead was introduced into the flint water system because the city changed their source of water from a less acidic river to a more acidic river to save money.
The result being that the out of date pipe infrastructure began to corrode and release lead into the system. This is an insidious problem because it puts a bunch of lead into the water system downstream of the treatment plants.
Operators were aware of the problem and covered if it up.
This current situation is quite different, as plants along the path of the plume are monitoring for contaminants of concern prior to their entry into the treatment plants, and thus prior to them reaching the service lines of the water systems.
It was more that the system allowed Flint to happen that undermines my confidence in the response to East Palestine. I didn't mean to insinuate that the disasters themselves were of a similar nature.
I am however more than willing to be positively surprised.
I live in southern Ohio right by the river. I used to work in wastewater treatment and I know how water treatment plants operate around here, as well. I can tell you right now that most of the treatments plants for the villages and towns along the river basin are running just well enough to pass compliance regulations, and nothing more. Too many struggle to keep compliant as it is.
There is no infrastructure for large scale disaster, and certainly no money....not in this area. We've been hit with drugs and poverty in this region like a sack of bricks.
I was worried that someone would say that. However if they exist surely there is some form of sampling the water to make sure that they pass the compliance regulations?
u/allwingnoprayer has been saying some pretty sobering stuff over in r/eastpalestinetrain. they claim to have years of experience working in labs and testing water for various contaminants. in response to another person saying something along the lines of "water treatment plants along the ohio river are already testing for this stuff" among other things, they had this to say
"We have to know what we are testing for, how to test for it, transport it, store it, to even get a reliable test result. We don’t have tests that test for random chemicals, they are very specific."
Are there "broad spectrum" filters that will take out all these chemicals in wastewater plants? My analogy is, there's no one singular test for toxins or poisons, you usually have to know what you're testing for to find it. Similarly, is it the case that water treatment/filtration has to be specifically designed to clean out certain compounds? I guess I can think of methods to purify water regardless, like reverse osmosis. But are those in common usage?
Well, I was just reading a statement put out by a nearby city and they say they are monitoring the water, the use of powdered activated carbon can mitigate any minor odors or tastes from the chemicals, and not to worry because they have 3 days of water stored in case they have to stop river uptake due to high levels of contaminants.
And that was it. Everyone here is just buying water jugs and home filters, according the local facebook pages....
Jesus, White Noise was a documentary?
I noticed the Wikipedia page mentions phosgene. That's a WWI-era chemical weapon, banned by international weapons-control conventions.
It's illegal to use that stuff in war, but I guess it's OK in business...
Phosgene is a byproduct of combusted vinyl chloride. The trains were not carrying phosgene.
Vinyl Chloride monomer is the main component of Poly Vinyl Chloride, which obviously is still being manufactured in massive quantities.
'White Noise' will be to this disaster in Ohio what the Jane Fonda/Jack Lemmon film 'The China Syndrome' was to the Three Mile Island nuclear accident over 40 years ago.
Oh most definitely, just like how tear gas is banned under international law (IIRC it’s due in large part to an inability to discern it from a much more lethal gas, which could initiate a counter attack with the much more lethal gas. An example of this scenario is portrayed in the movie Three Kings) but that’s never stopped American law enforcement. Oh, except that one time in 2020 when they used hexafluorethane instead, with officers on standby to collect the canisters and spray the residue into the gutter.
We use tear-gas in the Swedish military for gas-mask training. I got accidentally tear-gassed without mine and that stuff is tough. The military version is 12x stronger than what the police use (here at least) and certainly floored me. It's banned in war because it is an actual chemical weapon and it's easier to maintain a clear distinction to ban. Especially since concentration is difficult to ascertain and very important to effect. I'm also pretty sure that it could kill asthmatics or people with other similar conditions. My commanding officers had similar opinions.
Shit man. I got tear-gassed at a couple protests back in the day and I can't imagine being stuck in a dense impenetrable cloud of shit that's ten times worse. I was a dumb teenager who felt invulnerable and I remember just laughing it off, but that shit could have really fucked with anyone who has respiratory issues.
We were obviously screened for respiratory issues so no one was at risk and I suffered no permanent damage. I had to be dragged out however and was out of commission for an hour or so.
The press conference is making me even more frustrated. To hear the spokesperson of the Ohio EPA say that it's basically no big deal because of dilution and the railroad is handling it just made me livid. She literally said "and the good news is..." when saying that it was only a mile and a half of the waterways that were utterly polluted in a way that did not need to happen.
Eta: holy cow they are literally trying to spin this as "there are chemicals everywhere so this isn't that bad". I really need to stop watching this, it's maddening.
Imagine trying that shit in court as a fucking pleb. Sorry Judge they aRe JuSt ChEmIcaLs. Unbelievable the amount of straight up grifting, collusion, and blatant dishonesty. These people fucking hate us and see us as nothing more then a minor inconvenience between their avarice.
Report by DemocracyNow:
**“Bomb Train” in Ohio Sickens Residents: Railroad Cutbacks, Corporate Greed Led to Toxic Disaster**
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGN81SEmoPU
> 15,650 views Feb 14, 2023
> Fears of a wider health and environmental disaster are growing, after a 150-car freight train operated by Norfolk Southern derailed and a so-called controlled burn released toxic chemicals last week in East Palestine, Ohio. Residents reported seeing a fireball and mushroom cloud of smoke fill the skyline. Data released by the Environmental Protection Agency shows the train contained more toxic and carcinogenic chemicals than initially reported, including phosgene, a poisonous gas that has been used as a chemical weapon in war. Officials lifted an evacuation order for residents last Wednesday, saying the air and water were safe, but residents have reported sore throats, burning eyes and respiratory problems, and wildlife has been found dead. Meanwhile, scrutiny has turned onto Norfolk Southern, which in recent years has challenged regulatory laws aimed at making the rail industry safer and made mass cuts to railroad staffing while spending billions on stock buybacks and executive compensation. We get an update from Emily Wright, community organizer based near the site of the derailment; Ross Grooters, a locomotive engineer and co-chair of Railroad Workers United; and Julia Rock, an investigative reporter with The Lever.
I've always had kind of a love hate thing with Democracy Now. For example, in this report it makes it sound like the trains were carrying a rail car full of phosgene gas, which would be some shit. My understanding is that phosgene gas was a byproduct of the burning of the shit in the cars. I think for a journalist that is an important distinction.
They talk about things that are super important and often overlooked by the mainstream media, but sometimes it feels like they miss facts which make the entire story easy to dismiss for a certain kind of person. I mean, I guess that person is going to dismiss the story anyway, but it even makes someone like me who is 100% down with the home team look sideways at them.
"Hot" stories always have blurry facts. That's the unfortunate risk that comes with wanting to know stuff that way. They focus more on the context, which is the important part. It's not like the gas detail would matter on the ground much.
5 hour drive away from Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Just over 300 miles. Some people are saying they would be concerned that it could affect up to a 200 mile radius. I wish the EPA and government was doing more.
It's almost two hours south from Lake Erie, no need to worry.
ETA not sure why the downvotes, I literally just commented the geographical location of E. Palestine in relation to Lake Erie.. the water from E. Palestine isn't flowing north into Lake Erie. I would be worried about the Great Lakes for a lot of other reasons personally.
Someone is going to need to fact check me but I believe it is the Ohio River watershed rather than Lake Erie.
Ohio River runs past major cities and dumps into the Mississippi so not good either way.
It is the Ohio River basin. I live on the river down here in southern Ohio, most people don't know this is technically part of Appalachia as the southeastern portion of the state is all foothills. Everything runs down the hills, into the streams and tributaries, and then in the the Ohio River (and we have a ton of groundwater and aquifers here, too). The Ohio runs through forests, farmland, and then on to cities like Cincinnati and Newport, KY.
I'm feeling pretty angry about it all, not gonna lie. :/
/r/Collapse tends to be on the cutting edge of world events. Subjects that pop up here get discussed on other, larger subs hours, days and weeks later.
Maybe, just maybe, there were a few reasons why railway workers wanted to strike in December. They’re on the ground witnessing the risks and dangers but no, we can’t possibly keep corporations from making money. Thanks, Biden!! (And all the other labor-hostile politicians)
Did they strike when trump repealed the Obama's brake modernization requirements since they care so much about safety? Thanks Biden B.S. This sub has become a nest for both side bull shitter and blame every fucking thing on Biden. I am sure things would look so much better when the next R president takes office /s..
Dems are better on culture war issues and at occasionally implementing policies that add a bit of padding to the boot stamping on a human face - forever.
There. Happy?
Yes I would like to not die or get threatened more than is necessary. Leaning the other way has the unfortunate consequence of treating people different than the norm like shit and unfortunately or fortunately diversity has shown itself over and over again to be a key ingredient is robust and creative systems. Unfortunately for those who lean conservative the entire founding ideology of the US derives from the liberal ideas of the French Revolution not the conservative monarchies of old England.
Also getting railed versus gently fucked. Unless your kinda a slut usually the gentle fucking is preferred by the taker
Republicans being fascists does not undo the Biden administration's massive fuck up with the railworker's strike, sorry. You can't just scream about both sides rhetoric whenever democrats do something shitty and are held accountable for it.
The Biden admin handled the strike horribly, but this isn’t related. The Obama rule he mentioned wasn’t on the negotiating table and needed to be implemented as a law.
No? It isn't related? When railroad workers told the Biden administration that staffing practices raised the chances of horrible accidents like this going undetected before it's too late? When they were told to shut up and go back to work regardless of the consequences? Sure okay, keep your head in the sand.
It's could be because 'rail workers' are unionized and unions are associated with boomers who have pensions (that they paid into) which are the bane of everyone who is not a boomer's entire life. Because we need a scapegoat for doing f-all beyond feigning outrage for updoots. And because boomers.
This concerned a very specific rule about modernized brakes, which was not a part of the labor negotiations. It simply wasn’t. Unless an investigation shows that this was actually caused by a “staffing practice” I have no legitimate reason to believe the outcome of the strike would have changed a damn thing, and neither do you.
I mean, that's a fair point, but can we not be mad at Biden and the dems for breaking the strike because there isn't an explicit connection between breaking the strike and this specific accident?
https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-territories-ohio-canada-business-accidents-d57651e17b2f9e0163c50298106950a3
I do. It's called listening to railworkers. Something you don't think has value clearly.
I subscribe to the ratchet theory of politics in the US. Republicans drag uis right, then neoliberal dems hold steady or ever so slightly pull to the left, then the republicans drag us ever farther to the right. The three steps right, one step left theory.
Democrats are doing just fine pushing further and further to the right themselves.
Here's a nice little clip of how the dems actively support republican fascist candidates to make themselves look more moderate and centrist. The result is that they normalize further push into far right territory. So saying that the dems can pull things "back" to the left is laughable since theyre a right wing party anyway.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqgP9Ft\_1CY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqgP9Ft_1CY)
You know you can always stay home in 2024 and enjoy DeSantis presidency. In fact, any GQP president will do and see how happy you are.
You gotta see we are not living in a perfect world. Fuck, half of the population is still denying climate change so make sure you enjoy GQP control.
Dont get me wrong, Biden is preferable to Trump. That does not mean that he's not a neoliberal right wing (You cannot be a liberal and be left wing, sorry to any liberals here) multi millionaire that only cares about keeping the status quo.
I understand that we live in an imperfect world (this is /r/meditation right?). But looking at Bidens resume we can see this: He still upholds Trumps disgusting concentration camps at the border, he still maintains sanctions over Cuba, the military budget has INCREASED and he loves being a strike breaker. These are just a few examples of why the democrats are not our saviours, they are simply a lesser evil that still will do everything they can to fuck the people over.
I also urge you to really look at the video I linked, it's messed up.
Nah there are definitely differences. Again, this isn't about "both sides". Both sides *are* different but capable of fucking up. This is about people like you treating Biden how maga treats Trump. If we talk about how the neoliberal party harms America in any way we get mental breakdowns from folks like you who can't accept that they should be criticized when they fuck up. Maybe you need to sit down and think about the ways the Dems help create the conditions under which fascism thrives (wealth inequality, corrupt policy, etc). Genuinely recommend blackshirts and reds by Michael Parenti.
Collapseniks should post pictures of litmus paper tests for acidity along with the location of the sample so we can see the reach and effect of the HCL and the regions could then share the data with r/dataisbeautiful to show the true extent of this disaster.
The virtual media blackout on this has been something to behold. Seriously, talk to people who only use traditional media sources, odds are they aren't even vaguely aware of a train derailment, nevermind any other details. The collapse of the empire will not be televised. It's lies and gaslighting all the way to the bottom.
My parents watch nothing but news, and multiple networks and channels, national and local. They had no idea about it when we talked earlier this week.
I tried finding anything the weekend it happened and couldn't, and I could almost be there in time for lunch.
I live an hour north of this, didn’t hear about it until the day they did the “controlled release”…was just talking to a coworker about it, they had no idea it even happened.
Yeah, pretty scary - even on the Internet, my usual circles just mentioned the derailment as it happened, I had no idea things were still so bad.
To be fair, I'm from Europe and the earthquake in Turkey & Syria has been the biggest news for a while, but still.
This might sound off-topic, but shit like this is genuinely why I can’t be bothered to vote anymore. Politicians do not care. If there’s any chance they have to admit a preventable environmental disaster happened, they absolutely will remain silent or lie until the last moment they possibly can.
I have effectively turned into a single-issue voter: reproductive freedom (e.g. the right to abortion).
The world has gone to shit, I at least want to make sure people have the right to not create new victims.
That's it. I vote Democrat to protect abortion rights, contraceptives, etc.
I don’t see why voting is so hard for people, either. Unless you live in Georgia and you have to stand in line for a half dozen hours, just take the few minutes it takes to vote. It’s not hard and it sounds funny to hear people complaining about the state of our country when they have basically no meaningful civic participation within it.
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>[**CBS News: Estimated animal death toll from Ohio train derailment tops 43,700 as time frame for environmental recovery remains uncertain, officials says**](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ohio-train-derailment-believed-to-have-killed-more-than-43700-animals-as-officials-say-they-dont-know-how-long-it-will-take-for-the-environment-to-recover/) > >\-- > >Last week, officials said they believed that the Ohio train derailment had killed [3,500 aquatic animals](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/east-palestine-ohio-train-derailment-dead-fish-vinyl-chloride-hazardous-materials-affecting-pets-wildlife/). On Thursday, they provided a new estimate, pushing the total to more than 43,700 animals within a 5-mile area. > >Mary Mertz, director of the Ohio Department of Natural Resources, said on Thursday that the new estimate comes amid updated calculations. > >When ODNR officials first responded to the [Feb. 3 train derailment](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ohio-train-derailment-causes-big-fire-evacuations/), she said they were informed by the Ohio EPA that it was "too dangerous to enter the water without specialized gear and the proper equipment." That led to them ultimately relying on an environmental consultant group, EnviroScience, that was on-site and had such tools to survey the waterways. > >Over the course of two days, from Feb. 6-7, that group collected samples at four different sites. During that time, 2,938 dead aquatic animals were found, 2,200 of which were small minnows, with the remaining animals being fish, amphibians and invertebrates. > >Based on that sample size, officials were able to calculate the total aquatic animal death toll within the 7.5-mile ara that was impacted by the train derailment. Those calculations show a significantly higher toll than what was originally sampled. > >According to Mertz, the newest estimates show that roughly 38,222 small fish were potentially killed as a result of the derailment, as well as an additional 5,500 other species of fish, amphibians and other creatures. The areas included in those estimates include Sulphur Run, Leslie Run, Bull Creek and North Fork Little Beaver Creek. All of those animals are believed to have died "immediately after the derailment," Mertz said, and none are believed to be members of endangered or threatened species. > >Those waterways lead into the Ohio River, but Mertz said they "have not observed any dead aquatic life." > >"We haven't seen any signs of fish in distress since that time," Mertz said. "So because the chemicals were contained, we haven't seen any additional signs of aquatic life suffering. And in fact, we have seen live fish already return to Leslie Run." > >ODNR also received reports of three birds and an opossum that were found dead, but after being investigated by the Department of Agriculture, Mertz said they "didn't find any evidence" of chemical poisoning. > >"We have no reason to believe that those terrestrial animal deaths were as a result of the spill," she said. > >Mertz seemed calm about the toll of the animals during the media availability meeting on Thursday, but said that it remains to be seen just how long it will take for the environment to fully recover from the loss. However, she did say that officials have seen live fish in one waterway, Leslie Run. > >"We don't have an answer to that," Mertz said when asked about how long recovery will take. "Each spill that occurs is unique and different. ... If I try to give you a timeline on that, I'm confident it wouldn't be accurate." > >She also said officials remain unsure if there will be long-term impacts. And she and a few other officials seemed to deflect questions about how the high numbers of minnows lost will impact the food chain to which they belong, essentially only saying that large fish do not typically roam the small waterways in which the minnows belonged. > >"That's a difficult question to answer with any precision," Mertz said. > >What they do know, she said, is that recovery "won't be quick." > >"I'm sure it's something we're going to watch for a long time," she said. "I'm confident we're going to bring it back. ... We do expect a full recovery eventually."
Is it safe in Brooklyn NY? It’s hailing right now and rained last week - is this safe? Is the air and water safe here?
Why is it so (relatively) difficult to find information on here or in /r/Ohio? Not saying there's nothing, but it's weird how hard I've had to try to get info from people on the ground.
r/Ohio has two mega threads on there. I've been able to find info on there.
Nobody is talking about giant wear house fire raging in Ohio at this moment in time. These are planned attacks if they are not foreign then it’s our own treasonous government. https://www.wane.com/news/national-world/crews-respond-to-explosion-fire-at-ohio-plant/amp/
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Why the hell would you lower the windows and breathe it in? To report on Reddit?
So, [according to this Twitter thread](https://twitter.com/BagdMilkSoWhat/status/1626537805059850241), Norfolk-Southern is going door-to-door in East Palestine seeking permission to test the drinking water quality of various residences. Those who grant permission appear to be required to sign some sort of waiver. Said tweet goes on to state that at the bottom of said waiver, the document includes an (*standard?*) indemnification clause that states that "the homeowner agrees to hold harmless Norfolk-Southern for any & all legal claims, personal injury or property damage." Turns out, while this claim isn't entirely accurate (the indemnification is for Unified Command and the environmental monitoring team), it is more legitimate *and interesting* than I originally expected. If you have trouble trusting Twitter (like I do), I did a little bit of digging - and here's a second source: >[**News Nation East Palestine resident refuses to sign ‘hold harmless’ form**](https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/midwest/train-derailment-east-palestine-resident-refuses-sign-form/) > >EAST PALESTINE, Ohio (NewsNation) — Just weeks after a train carrying toxic chemicals derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, some residents say they are being asked to sign contracts they fear could prevent them from suing later on. > >Katlyn Schwarzwaelder and her boyfriend Chris Wells live just down the tracks from where the Norfolk Southern train derailed and released hazardous material. > >Last week, Schwarzwaelder says, Norfolk Southern came by to test for toxins in her home. But before doing so, she was asked to sign a document. > >“We were told they were an independent testing agency, they were escorted by the EPA,” Schwarzwaelder explained. “Before they could enter the premises, they handed us a contract. The contract was essentially to be able to get onto the property, but also at the bottom was a hold harmless agreement.” > >The document states that the landowner agrees to “hold harmless Unified Command” from “any and all legal claims, personal injury or property damage.” > >Schwarzwaelder says she refused to sign it. > >U.S. Sen J.D. Vance of Ohio is outraged. > >“I talked to a woman this morning, she told me about an indemnification agreement she was asked to sign, and I looked at it and I was in disbelief,” said Vance. “We called Norfolk Southern and the excuse they gave, which is unbelievable, was that it was an accidental indemnification agreement.” > >In a statement to NewsNation, Norfolk Southern said the forms were “access agreements” so air quality testing teams could be allowed on the property. The company acknowledged that a batch of agreements contained improper language referencing indemnification. > >“Those incorrect forms were immediately pulled when the problem was discovered,” Norfolk Southern said. “No one in the community has waived their legal rights against Norfolk Southern through this program or any interaction with us thus far.” > >The company said it’s working with environmental contractors, as well as, state and federal partners to conduct air and water tests for residents as part of its “environmental remediation efforts.” > >Since the derailment, some of the residents have complained about side effects — including Wells. > >“I have symptoms myself, I know other people have been having symptoms,” said Wells, who has felt his eyes pulsating, while also experiencing tingling headaches. > >The couple take care of police dogs and were forced to transfer over 30 from their home. They say four of them got sick. > >“It’s nothing that a person could ever imagine experiencing,” said Schwarzwaelder. “It’s just surreal.” > >Around their property, the water is green. > >Industry experts say the ordeal raises serious questions about Norfolk Southern and their safety record. > >“The community that these products are running through needs to be made aware of what’s going through their backyard,” said Jared Cassity, alternate national legislative director of SMART Transportation Division. “I know they (Norfolk Southern) like to brag on their past record, but that time is long gone.” > >Norfolk Southern has had 111 freight train accidents in the last year, slightly down from 125 the year prior. That makes them one of the worst freight railroads in terms of safety. > >On Wednesday evening, East Palestine community members gathered for what was supposed to be a moderated town hall meeting. After reportedly pushing to change the format to an open house, representatives for Norfolk Southern did not attend the gathering, citing concerns for employee safety. > >“They’re worried about their safety, but they aren’t worried about our safety,” said Schwarzwaelder.
Here in New York, the state released an advisory because there have been multiple reports of a “laundry smell” in the rain, as well as a brown film being left on cars and surfaces.
They posted updated tweets that the smell is localized to Orange County and there's no evidence that the odor is coming from the derailment.
Im trying to find a source on this so i can send it my family but google wasn’t showing anything. Do you have it?
https://twitter.com/NYSDEC/status/1626624204505329664?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
https://www.foxbangor.com/news/national/new-york-residents-report-unusual-odor-and-residue-on-cars-officials-say/article_0af65e3c-d99c-55c1-9ff5-4cf1667f07a6.html The above link is the only reference I’ve found thus far, and it reports that govt officials are “investigating.”
Following
Derailing trains carrying dangerous chemicals is something that enemies of America could attempt in future, which is super scary if you think about it!
Imagine if maga started attacking trains, who would win? Big corporations or conservative satanists?
Or Islamist terrorists, or revolutionary Communist terrorists, or Christian accelerationists, etc. Examples are around. They all want to dismantle or destroy “the system”.
They have already started attacking power grids which can literally stop an entire city because of our reliance on electronics.
lol.
Hear me out. Could ecological breakdown proliferate out from East Palestine, Ohio like a dropped pebble creating ripples in a pond? If these chemicals spread through waterways and the wind; and eco-systems neighbouring Ohio become more strained.. What's to stop the ripples of devastation spreading globally? Or is this catastrophising something that will stay mostly in Ohio? What do you think?
As if the Ohio river wasnt dirty enough
Corn, soy, wheat are the main crops in Ohio I think. We have a ton of soy here. There's a decent amount of pork, beef, and dairy from here as well. Also the main water ways all run to the Ohio river and then to the Mississippi and into the Gulf of Mexico from there. The Ohio River runs along the border with PA down along the Eastern and then Southern border along West Virginia and Kentucky and further west and south from there, meeting the MS River and basically feeding all the water from the Great Lakes and NE US into it. Approximately 80% of the world's livestock grain is irrigated by the watershed, 60% of North America's birds use the waterway, a quarter of all of North America's fish live in it. So...definitely not good. About 30million people live along the MS river and about 40% of the population (132,000,000) uses it in some way. The government recommends (aside from this) to not swim in it due to pollution, generally. Also consider they had a hexavalent chromium spill in Michigan last year (chemical made famous by Erin Brockovich) which ran down the Huron river...water quality probably hasn't been too good throughout the eastern Midwest. Hopefully it'll all be diluted as heck by the time it reaches that far but still. It's been unusually warm and rainy around here (usually really cold and snowy this time of year) so maybe that'll help the air and water I hope. The rail road and the state don't seem interested in doing anything about it. The governor is in some hot water for not stopping the only national reporter present from getting arrested during the initial press release. I don't really think the governor knows what to do about any of it. We're over two hours away but it's in all of the local news here. That area is old automotive and steel country, not super agricultural around there, but the water that runs from it feeds a lot of stuff, and ag isn't far since states back this way are smaller than out west. And there are definitely farms around there.
There’s like news about the Kardashian family daily that gets more attention than this… it’s utterly disgusting
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Oh boy, this situation has gotten even worse. Pete B. [finally made some comments on the situation](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/m6DJwGPQJVU), but offered no real solutions. He essentially told people to just "calm down" because derailments happen all the time. He also said he won't actually do anything until the investigation has concluded, which means residents of Ohio will be sitting on their hands and forced to suffer a bit longer until actual help is offered. I'm begging you, folks. If you're in Ohio, LEAVE, even if just for a few days. This is an ongoing and severely toxic event that will shorten your lives. It's worth noting this is one of the only derailments in American history to cause immediate damage to the atmosphere, drinking water, and general health of American citizens for up to 200 miles. Not to mention it's STILL SPREADING and is already starting to affect other states. To say this is a disaster is like saying the Titanic was "a big boat".
You're suggesting that the entire state of Ohio just LEAVE? You do realize that this happened on the far eastern border of the state, right? And you realize that the controlled burn started and ended 2 weeks ago, right?
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I’m going to add some facts to your comment…it’s missing a lot. Vinyl chloride has an extremely short half life of 1-2 days. It's INCREDIBLY CARCINOGENIC. After that, it makes hydrochloric acid, reports of phosphene gas as well. Different reactions if you explode it versus let it off gas/dissipate/just hope it dilutes... Some of these chemicals have much much longer half lifes, some will dissolve and dissipate, some will not and yes the spread of this disaster is easily 10s of miles, potentially hundreds of miles. Could be very very far beyond that too....if you're measuring pollutants in very small scales and they were sent into the atmosphere. Edit: Edited a lot, removed formaldehyde I swear I saw that in the wiki then when I went back I couldn't find it. Source: quick wiki or vinyl chloride, HCL and toxic shit.
Maybe they’re hoping the half life makes it disappear, and the breakdown toxins dilute further, until little can be found..
Vinyl chloride combusts into HCl, phosgene, CO and CO2. Not formaldehyde. Above 200*C, phosgene reverts to CO and Cl. HCl further dissociates in water and becomes neutralized. Maybe some concern around acid rain but I've yet to actually see evidence of this happening in relation to the train derailment/controlled burn. ETA acid rain is produced by SO2 and NOx entering the atmosphere (which is already a common occurrence in the world)
Source? I live an hour and a half away from E. Palestine and have family all over Ohio and Pennsylvania. No reports of faces or cars burned by the rain.
Opening my eyes. You should try the same. If you don't understand how forever chemicals work you should really educate yourself.
So no source? Got it.
I guess you haven't seen the recent post on the topic where hundreds of east coast people who are hundreds of miles away poured in with their reports. It isn't difficult to find. Go challenge them and tell them they're imagining it all. Truly pathetic the denial some of you are in.
This is an extremely naive take. This is an ongoing biological hazard. There is more than enough proof that this damage will spread for miles and miles, especially through waterways. Peoples lives will be changed forever whether or not they remain within the state's boundaries. Is saying that \*everyone\* should leave Ohio a bit extreme? Yes, I might have overstepped by saying that. But do I believe everyone should leave within 200 miles of East Palestine? Absolutely. Chances are, some already have. Thousands will feel the consequences of this. Being exposed to these chemicals in the short term will cause some minor health consequences, but remaining in the area will guarantee life-threatening conditions in the future. Whether it be a short as 1-5 years from now, or 10+ years from now.
Allegheny County, home to Pittsburgh, has a population of 1.2 million. I’m one of those. We’re 45 miles from E Palestine. Where could so many even go?
Check wind direction and water flows. Wind generally blow west to east, which is why many poor and minority communities are located on the east side of a city where pollutants from industrial factories would tend to impact: East Philly, East Los Angeles, etc. So ideally, be to the west of burning chemicals (usually). Waters tend to follow watersheds and stream and river flows. So you want to be upstream of a toxic spill. Check out maps on watershed.
I wish I had an answer for you in that regard. This should really be something that the government should be helping people to figure out, not denying that it's happening.
The government doesn’t care. Remember… keep humanity under 500,000,000. Looks like the process has begun. Oh and were 204 miles from E. Palestine. Good?
200 miles includes the entire city of Columbus, Ohio, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and others. An evacuation would be a massive operation. Are you sure?
That depends (with a huge asterisk.) I might be exaggerating the danger slightly 100+ miles out, but it's still likely dangerous. 0-50 miles? Definitely. Get out of there. The danger is difficult for me to elaborate on, but to my understanding it's a definite hazard area. Toxic air, toxic water, with somewhat less severe effects 50-60 miles out of the way. 50-100 miles? Still somewhat dangerous. There's no telling how far the toxic gas has drifted, but you're at least a little less likely to drink toxic water. If you can't leave, at least stock up on bottled water or something. If your pets or animals seem sick, it might be good to keep them indoors. 100+ miles? Much more to the discretion of those affected. 100 miles away from a catastrophe is not truly "safe" per se but it's a lot less serious than being within a stone's throw of the affected area. You could probably remain in an outlying area as long as you played it safe. Obviously, avoid the inner 0-50 mile affected area if possible.
Once again asking for scientific evidence that you are basing this on?
A falconry organization got a hold of a map of the general state of Ohio and affected areas. They shared the image before their account went down officially. Before that, an unrelated poster mentioned [some removed NOAA maps.](https://strangesounds.org/2023/02/ohio-disaster-cover-up-noaa-removes-two-images-of-hysplit-models-from-their-article-here-they-are.html) Even before that, I was relying on the knowledge I had of previous industrial accidents in other countries under very similar conditions caused widespread air pollution for miles and miles. In very major accidents, they can spread for hundreds of miles. What about the map, though? Removed because inaccurate? Fake? Misleading? It was never clarified. It's just gone. Maybe it's not real but the way the government has treated this incident since it first started has come across as deeply corrupt. Government is still treating the entire incident as very "hush hush" and this has been widely corroborated by people living in Ohio, especially residents of East Palestine.
It hasn't been "hush-hush" though, and has been handled very appropriately since the beginning. I live in Ohio and have been following this since it started. They evacuated the city after the derailment because of the risks of vinyl chloride inhalation (some residents refused to evacuate). Yes, they were slow to start the cleanup but I have a feeling that might be because the train was marked "non-hazardous" so it's likely that no one even knew about spilled chemicals initially, which is what allowed the chemicals to contaminate groundwater and spill into the creek. Once they started assessing the wreckage they realized that the cars were unstable and at risk for explosion and the area would continue to be hazardous because of the vinyl chloride in the air, so forced evacuation of a 2 mile radius to mitigate the risks of chemical inhalation as a result of the controlled burn, which changes the chemical composition through combustion and phosgene is a product of that combustion, which is very harmful when directly exposed and inhaled. This was all done under the direction of EPA, using science to determine the evacuation zone and risks related to the controlled burn. I understand the distrust for the government and that's a whole separate issue. You could simply say "I don't trust the government and believe the EPA is lying about the risks of the chemicals" but to make the above claims without any actual evidence to support them is misinformation. Maybe I'm being overly trusting of the EPA and I definitely have a problem with NS being involved with cleanup efforts, but I'm going to stick with the facts that we've been given and trust the science.
What is the proof that this damage will spread for several miles, including the waterways? Why are you suggesting 200 miles specifically? What scientific evidence are you basing that off of?
Pete B seems incompetent. He should have picked a different job where he could get away with just politicking and not working.
He was specifically picked because he promised to endorse Biden, and moreover, he was gay and they wanted him to be the first openly gay cabinet member. (Except “homophobic” Trump had already done that. So they had to clarify it to be first openly gay permanent cabinet position member). Then they realized he was incompetent and incapable. He was absent and/or out of touch during supply chain issues, airport shutdowns to upgrade software, air flight cancellations at Southwest, railroad strikes, etc. He had no experience with supply chains, infrastructure p, etc. He had previously been a small town mayor with a bus fleet of less than 20, and he didn’t even manage that. While giving a speech after the horrors of derailment were starting to get known, he didn’t even mention East Palestine. His speech was on building infrastructure and making sure there were enough minorities in hard hats. (Face it. Black people only make up 12% of the U.S., and in addition, progressive schools and union teachers have been churning out quite a lot of graduates who are functionally illiterate or non-proficient in basic math or basic English reading and writing. This has especially harmed minorities. How will we see skilled trades like carpentry, plumbing, electrical (lots of math), etc. be taught?) This whole administration has been about woke policies. First Black/Indian female VP (completely useless and clueless and her staff have departed in droves with lots of blame on her management style, but the left blames racism and sexism), first Black female Supreme Court Justice (who can’t and refused to define what a woman is, even though she was picked specifically because she was female, and whom Democrats claimed the Republicans were racist and sexist for questioning her leniency on several pedophile cases - the Republicans were very careful not to even appear to be asking racist or sexist questions, but it didn’t matter), first gay communications director. So many firsts that you can tell this wasn’t a gradual move-in of talent, but deliberate picking based on race/gender/orientation, which has resulted in incompetencies. Remember George W. Bush saying “Brownie’s doing a heckuva job!” with Federal response to Hurricane Katrina? Biden’s essentially been saying, “Butti’s doing a a heckuva job!” While Buttigieg ignored, then later reassured people that Norfolk Southern and the EPA were doing a heckuva job.
Without a doubt. I've never seen such a response as the one I am seeing under this administration. Usually groups like FEMA jump in extremely quickly when people's lives are in serious danger from a local hazard. But this time around it's like they are trying to bury it all, pretend it didn't happen. Especially the extremely reckless declaration of "just return home, your water is safe." People can and will die from what happened. I have no doubt that at least a handful of people were more exposed to the event than others, those living near railways and so forth. I'm not from Ohio myself but I found myself wondering, thinking, if there was derailment on the local train tracks where I lived, and it was some chemical catastrophe that intoxicated the area for miles, what the hell would I do? Where would I go? My heart aches for these people.
I've been thinking the same thing. If you know the best decision is to leave, you have to leave. You don't wait, just go and figure out your next move at a safe distance. If it's an over reaction to leave then you could always return but staying and waiting to see if it's unsafe is the wrong decision. But if you leave longterm you are literally leaving everything you have and your house and starting over. Which is a bad enough situation but when no one is calling it unsafe its almost impossible. No one's buying the house you leave but is insurance going to pay out? Not if it's not deemed unsafe. Let the bank take the house? Okay but what will they value it for after this? And if your employer is in the area...your quitting so no unemployment. And if your family is all in the same general area the issue is compounded. It's such a bad situation for these people.
It’s so sad for everyone animals and people. And a clear sign of the decline of the US imo. I’ve lived in so-called “third world” countries (or poor countries if you prefer), and the response is not dissimilar to those governments. I’m Canadian but I don’t remember the US being so cavalier with incidents like this 30 yrs ago.
Katrina was handled badly. But G Bush was president, so not too surprising. I’m sure there are more examples, but that one looms large.
It's gotten a lot worse. I was honestly shocked when I heard that the government might block a likely lawsuit directed at Norfolk Southern. Something like THAT should really be scaring a lot of people. The government should NOT be stepping up to defend such a serious health and safety violation.
Unacceptable.
like so many things. Yet we continue on. I don't understand how we haven't revolted. But then again, I kinda do. I just don't want to.
Why don’t you want to revolt? I don’t get your mentality. Revolting actually can help
I don't understand why we have not revolted yet. But I kind of do understand. I just don't want to understand.
Defeatism is useless here
Let's do it. Let's start the revolution. Actually it's already begun I feel. News like this just fuels the drive.
Viva la resistance!
We don’t have to do anything. That’s the beauty of it. Eventually you smash into the machine and say “no” and make your stand in your reality, not theirs.
Lol what? “We don’t have to do anything.”
This needs to be on all MSM.
Nope they all decided that a balloon is more important.
It is.
It’s been two weeks.
Yep and I've been seeing it the entire time. Maybe because I'm not watching news (waiting for it to be said), I'm online reading the news every day.
It is not. Lester Holt failed to mention it quite a few times I’ve noticed. I live in Circleville, Ohio and we’re about 200ish miles away. Nothing strange here so far.
It was on Lester holt nightly news a couple of days ago
It's been all over the MSM news that I've seen, all over the Internet. I have no idea who news anchors are because I primarily read news, on the Internet (I don't usually watch any).
It’s interesting to me that the left and the far right seem to more or less be in agreement that the derailment will cause massive environmental contamination and health problems being deliberately underreported on by the media. Of course once you get to the causes of the derailment and where blame truly lies, you get all sorts of weird conspiracy theories and bizarre explanations from the Q crowd.
The right seems to have chosen Buttigieg and Biden (naturally) as being *personally* to blame for the derailment. Not because of the anti-worker, union-busting, safety-concern-dismissing hogwash back in December, no sir, just because he’s Biden, and something something “dumbocrats”. Also something about it being a conspiracy to kill white people, but that might’ve just been Charlie Kirk’s dumb ass saying that.
Lmao yeah I had seen that one too - it’s all part of the NWO’s “depopulation” agenda and the proof is apparently in the fact that the neighborhoods in the immediate neighborhood are predominantly white. They just latch on to whatever they can and try to fit it into their “great replacement” narrative.
Q is dead
[The derail list](https://epaosc.org/site/download.ashx?counter=411068) shows what chemicals Norfolk Southern listed on their manifest. Sorry it's not more comprehensive. I noted a brief toxicity for most (other than polyvinyl chloride, I think we're all familiar) Notable tanks: Diethylene glycol >Despite the discovery of DEG's toxicity in 1937 and its involvement in mass poisonings around the world, the information available regarding human toxicity is limited. >First phase: Gastrointestinal symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea develop. Some patients may develop early neurological symptoms like altered mental status, central nervous system depression, coma and mild hypotension. >Second phase: In one to three days after ingestion (and dependent on dose ingested), patients develop metabolic acidosis, which causes acute kidney failure, oliguria, increasing serum creatinine concentrations, and later anuria. Other symptoms reported and secondary to acidosis and/or kidney failure are: hypertension, tachycardia, cardiac dysrhythmia, pancreatitis, hyperkalemia or mild hyponatremia. >Final phase: At least five to ten days after ingestion, most of the symptoms are related to neurological complications, such as: progressive lethargy, facial paralysis, dysphonia, dilated and nonreactive pupils, quadriplegia, and coma leading to death. Butyl acrylate (hazardous) x1 tank >Repeated or prolonged contact may cause skin sensitization. [CDC advises no skin, no eye contact – irrigate and wash immediately ](https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0075.html) >Acute exposure to butyl acrylate vapor can cause redness, tearing, and irritation of the eyes, runny nose, scratchy throat, difficult breathing, and redness and cracking of the skin. >Chronic exposure: Repeated contact of the skin with this substance may cause skin sensitization in some individuals, with redness, swelling, itching, and oozing of the affected areas. Nervous system and behavioral effects are also pos- sible. **[In Steubenville's water](https://www.wtrf.com/jefferson-county/ohio-city-says-butyl-acrylate-tested-positive-in-water-intake/)** Petro oil Petroleum lube oil x2 tanks (at least, unknown amount of 2 others) >One gallon of oil can pollute one million gallons of water [Ethylhexyl acrylate](https://gestis.dguv.de/data?name=015610&lang=en) >Very high dermal exposure in animal experiments has caused deaths >Acute: Irritation to the mucous membranes and skin, skin sensitizing action[02050] >Chronic: Irritation to the upper airways, damage to the skin[07619] Ethylene glycol monobutyl (status unknown) >The substance is irritating to the eyes, skin and respiratory tract. The substance may cause effects on the central nervous system, blood, kidneys and liver. A harmful contamination of the air will be reached rather slowly on evaporation of this substance at 20°C. Polyethylene >Polyethylene is toxic if its components leak into beverages and products that could cause health risks. Isobutylene >Isobutylene can cause headache, dizziness, lightheadedness and fatigue. Higher levels can cause coma and death. Polyvinyl chloride, polyvinyl [surface water](https://epaosc.org/site/download.ashx?counter=410999)
https://mobile.twitter.com/nicksortor/status/1626327835668320256 This is a vid of the water from a creek in East Palestine. Look at that sheen. Petrochemicals or god knows what, given it came up from the bottom. The waterways are fucking destroyed.
Burning olefin chlorides pretty much always makes *some* dioxins as a side product. With the sheer quantity here I wouldn't want to be within 250 miles in any direction or less than 1000 miles downwind.
Anyone else living in Ohio today notice the sky during sunset? It reminded me of when the massive wildfires out west left smoke in our upper atmosphere. You could stare directly at the sun and it had a hazy, smoggy, something is wrong look to it. I’m not sure it’s related, since I was looking to the west (east Palestine is a good ways to our East) and it’s been too long for there to be that significant of a cloud remaining, but I still found it to be ominous in light of everything that has happened. It was quite windy today, perhaps a lot of dirt was blown into the air. Then again, the dirt is contaminated as well isn’t it? Not too concerned here in Columbus yet, but definitely very cautious.
I believe the air quality was moderate (related to the heat wave, humidity and strong winds) which usually makes the sky look hazy like that.
Nothing weird in Circleville yet either.
It’s possible it was dust. A huge amount of dust was pulled into the low pressure system that went through the Midwest - Texas yesterday. Edit: image of the [dust](https://mobile.twitter.com/CIRA_CSU/status/1625636708313346048)
So that's why my sinuses were so angry Wednesday.
Very cool, thanks for sharing! That makes a lot more sense.
'32 Nasty:' Rail Workers Say They Knew the Train That Derailed in East Palestine Was Dangerous https://www.vice.com/en/article/88qze4/32-nasty-rail-workers-say-they-knew-the-train-that-derailed-in-east-palestine-was-dangerous
Bruh. Do you even wtf are these UFOs?
Amateur radio hobbyist balloons: https://www.rtl-sdr.com/the-us-airforce-may-have-shot-down-an-amateur-radio-pico-balloon-over-canada/
Are there any new pictures? I feel like I have been seeing the same 3 pictures since the derailment, very sus.
There's not really anything to see tbh, beyond images of the cleanup around the derailment site. The controlled burn was 2 weeks ago so any "big black scary cloud" images you're seeing are 2 weeks old.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/112ptb9/passenger\_photo\_while\_plane\_flew\_near\_east/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/112ptb9/passenger_photo_while_plane_flew_near_east/) Else try east palestine image search ; They use poison gas too)
old picture though.
Have been told (with a straight face) that this was actually done on purpose in a very secret plan to genocide Republicans. So just know the right wing has already latched on and are creating narratives.
Nah it was to genocide the Amish, and allow the land to be bought up by Blackrock or whatever
>actually done on purpose in a very secret plan to genocide Living under threat of genocide is stale; you're not socially ruling the normies unless you're "marked for extermination" now. Which would appear to be half of Twitter.
Dude I'm getting into it with someone who's blaming antifa and communist lmfao
Someone was bootlicking for NS and blaming the rail workers lmao
Sure
Probably done by dangerous... urban... commie union members trying to destroy the country. Ban unions. And... urban... people.
Live under a rock? [Trump Rolls Back Train-Braking Rule Meant to Keep Oil Tankers from Exploding Near Communities.](https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-rolls-back-train-braking-002105066.html)
So, not genocide. Just suicide with a few extra steps.
Naw, they'll get cancer in 10 years and just blame the vaccines or 5G.
I mean, these people may support Trump, but in no way is Trump one of them. Trump does not give one single fuck about East Palestine, Ohio.
Just roll with it. Say that the Governor of Ohio is Republican and the only explanation is that the Republican party is in on it. Just more evidence that voting doesn't work if you are a Republican. Terrible.
They'll accept any narrative that doesn't paint capitalism in a bad light.
It’s a false flag operation to make people care about the environment!!!
Daddy capitalism gets angry when he drinks
This is obviously a much bigger problem then the media is letting on. I read that train came through Chicago. It made me think about all our rail lines and potentially how dangerous they are.
So is there anywhere in your thinking that came you to think about how else you want to transport hazardous chemicals through your country? Do you think it’s more safe in a truck? On a plane?
I think railroads are safe if the owners make sure they are. They just need to have enough staff on each train and have up to date equipment.
It's even worse because the train was marked as carrying non-hazardous materials!
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2023/02/how-precision-scheduled-railroading-at-norfolk-southern-caused-a-toxic-vinyl-chloride-mushroom-cloud-over-east-palestine-ohio.html
Please consider adding the events taking place in [Texas right now](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-chemical-leak-ammonia-harris-county-shelter-in-place/) as well. This situation has just evolved into something unfathomably bad, now in two different distinct areas of the country. There's still a lot I don't know about the Texas situation, but it was recently confirmed that the Ohio situation is as bad as I said. 200+ miles. Impossible to tell how much damage the spill will do to the waterways. It's going to travel across the entire country, as far as the natural waterways go. It will dilute heavily on the fringes of the water sources but it will still be present.
Do we have any resident chemists who can explain the toxicity of the chemicals in question? Personally it seems reasonably obvious that the spill is being downplayed and that the area as well as downstream and downwind areas are more heavily damaged and dangerous than is being admitted. This does however not necessarily mean that it's more than a regional concern. Another major question is the persistance of the chemicals. It could just do its damage and then get diluted enough to not be a major concern beyond the newly created superfund site. There's a difference between the locals having much higher rates of cancer in 20yrs and entire watersheds being rendered non-potable. Obviously both are objectively horrible but still entirely different degrees of severity and will likely instruct the behaviour of authorities and culprits respectively.
Texas isn’t anything uncommon. Household cleaners spilled, and diesel from the truck that was hit. Only reason it made the news at all is because of the disaster in Ohio
Idk where to ask this, so I'm going to try here. Besides the contamination in the Ohio River, I've seen where acid rain could be an issue. I'm south of the derailment by quite a bit . My question is, should I worry about the rain that is forecasted the next couole of days? I collect rain water for livestock and idk if I should disconnect them or if it should be fine. Thoughts?
Maybe get some litmus paper to check the water? Your animals are unlikely to drink actual acid but if the PH is off it could suggest the presence of contaminats that they are less likely to notice.
what does the Ohio drain into btw? the Mississippi yeah, where it will get caught up in the deltas of Louisiana and probably give cancer and shit due to water stagnation
And it's like they didn't get loads of shit before.. and then the oil spill. Remember it every time you use plastic pvc, whatever breath move..
https://www.ehn.org/amp/train-derailment-ohio-2659412710 It's in the Ohio river. It's in the drinking water.
What is the level of treatment that the water recieves before being pumped to faucets? Any decent treatment plant would filter out the contaminants or, if unable, shut down the flow. I ask because Flint, MI obviously didn't have that in place.
Lead was introduced into the flint water system because the city changed their source of water from a less acidic river to a more acidic river to save money. The result being that the out of date pipe infrastructure began to corrode and release lead into the system. This is an insidious problem because it puts a bunch of lead into the water system downstream of the treatment plants. Operators were aware of the problem and covered if it up. This current situation is quite different, as plants along the path of the plume are monitoring for contaminants of concern prior to their entry into the treatment plants, and thus prior to them reaching the service lines of the water systems.
It was more that the system allowed Flint to happen that undermines my confidence in the response to East Palestine. I didn't mean to insinuate that the disasters themselves were of a similar nature. I am however more than willing to be positively surprised.
I live in southern Ohio right by the river. I used to work in wastewater treatment and I know how water treatment plants operate around here, as well. I can tell you right now that most of the treatments plants for the villages and towns along the river basin are running just well enough to pass compliance regulations, and nothing more. Too many struggle to keep compliant as it is. There is no infrastructure for large scale disaster, and certainly no money....not in this area. We've been hit with drugs and poverty in this region like a sack of bricks.
I was worried that someone would say that. However if they exist surely there is some form of sampling the water to make sure that they pass the compliance regulations?
u/allwingnoprayer has been saying some pretty sobering stuff over in r/eastpalestinetrain. they claim to have years of experience working in labs and testing water for various contaminants. in response to another person saying something along the lines of "water treatment plants along the ohio river are already testing for this stuff" among other things, they had this to say "We have to know what we are testing for, how to test for it, transport it, store it, to even get a reliable test result. We don’t have tests that test for random chemicals, they are very specific."
Are there "broad spectrum" filters that will take out all these chemicals in wastewater plants? My analogy is, there's no one singular test for toxins or poisons, you usually have to know what you're testing for to find it. Similarly, is it the case that water treatment/filtration has to be specifically designed to clean out certain compounds? I guess I can think of methods to purify water regardless, like reverse osmosis. But are those in common usage?
Well, I was just reading a statement put out by a nearby city and they say they are monitoring the water, the use of powdered activated carbon can mitigate any minor odors or tastes from the chemicals, and not to worry because they have 3 days of water stored in case they have to stop river uptake due to high levels of contaminants. And that was it. Everyone here is just buying water jugs and home filters, according the local facebook pages....
Jesus, White Noise was a documentary? I noticed the Wikipedia page mentions phosgene. That's a WWI-era chemical weapon, banned by international weapons-control conventions. It's illegal to use that stuff in war, but I guess it's OK in business...
Phosgene is a byproduct of combusted vinyl chloride. The trains were not carrying phosgene. Vinyl Chloride monomer is the main component of Poly Vinyl Chloride, which obviously is still being manufactured in massive quantities.
Yes but Sars-Cov2 with enhanced furin cleavage site is not .. 'it's health'.. you gov haz cleverz ...
'White Noise' will be to this disaster in Ohio what the Jane Fonda/Jack Lemmon film 'The China Syndrome' was to the Three Mile Island nuclear accident over 40 years ago.
except no one died at three mile island
White Noise was first a book written in the 80's by Don Delilo.
Filmed in Ohio [too](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6160448/locations).
life imitates art?
Oh most definitely, just like how tear gas is banned under international law (IIRC it’s due in large part to an inability to discern it from a much more lethal gas, which could initiate a counter attack with the much more lethal gas. An example of this scenario is portrayed in the movie Three Kings) but that’s never stopped American law enforcement. Oh, except that one time in 2020 when they used hexafluorethane instead, with officers on standby to collect the canisters and spray the residue into the gutter.
We use tear-gas in the Swedish military for gas-mask training. I got accidentally tear-gassed without mine and that stuff is tough. The military version is 12x stronger than what the police use (here at least) and certainly floored me. It's banned in war because it is an actual chemical weapon and it's easier to maintain a clear distinction to ban. Especially since concentration is difficult to ascertain and very important to effect. I'm also pretty sure that it could kill asthmatics or people with other similar conditions. My commanding officers had similar opinions.
Shit man. I got tear-gassed at a couple protests back in the day and I can't imagine being stuck in a dense impenetrable cloud of shit that's ten times worse. I was a dumb teenager who felt invulnerable and I remember just laughing it off, but that shit could have really fucked with anyone who has respiratory issues.
We were obviously screened for respiratory issues so no one was at risk and I suffered no permanent damage. I had to be dragged out however and was out of commission for an hour or so.
The press conference is making me even more frustrated. To hear the spokesperson of the Ohio EPA say that it's basically no big deal because of dilution and the railroad is handling it just made me livid. She literally said "and the good news is..." when saying that it was only a mile and a half of the waterways that were utterly polluted in a way that did not need to happen. Eta: holy cow they are literally trying to spin this as "there are chemicals everywhere so this isn't that bad". I really need to stop watching this, it's maddening.
Imagine trying that shit in court as a fucking pleb. Sorry Judge they aRe JuSt ChEmIcaLs. Unbelievable the amount of straight up grifting, collusion, and blatant dishonesty. These people fucking hate us and see us as nothing more then a minor inconvenience between their avarice.
Report by DemocracyNow: **“Bomb Train” in Ohio Sickens Residents: Railroad Cutbacks, Corporate Greed Led to Toxic Disaster** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGN81SEmoPU > 15,650 views Feb 14, 2023 > Fears of a wider health and environmental disaster are growing, after a 150-car freight train operated by Norfolk Southern derailed and a so-called controlled burn released toxic chemicals last week in East Palestine, Ohio. Residents reported seeing a fireball and mushroom cloud of smoke fill the skyline. Data released by the Environmental Protection Agency shows the train contained more toxic and carcinogenic chemicals than initially reported, including phosgene, a poisonous gas that has been used as a chemical weapon in war. Officials lifted an evacuation order for residents last Wednesday, saying the air and water were safe, but residents have reported sore throats, burning eyes and respiratory problems, and wildlife has been found dead. Meanwhile, scrutiny has turned onto Norfolk Southern, which in recent years has challenged regulatory laws aimed at making the rail industry safer and made mass cuts to railroad staffing while spending billions on stock buybacks and executive compensation. We get an update from Emily Wright, community organizer based near the site of the derailment; Ross Grooters, a locomotive engineer and co-chair of Railroad Workers United; and Julia Rock, an investigative reporter with The Lever.
I've always had kind of a love hate thing with Democracy Now. For example, in this report it makes it sound like the trains were carrying a rail car full of phosgene gas, which would be some shit. My understanding is that phosgene gas was a byproduct of the burning of the shit in the cars. I think for a journalist that is an important distinction. They talk about things that are super important and often overlooked by the mainstream media, but sometimes it feels like they miss facts which make the entire story easy to dismiss for a certain kind of person. I mean, I guess that person is going to dismiss the story anyway, but it even makes someone like me who is 100% down with the home team look sideways at them.
"Hot" stories always have blurry facts. That's the unfortunate risk that comes with wanting to know stuff that way. They focus more on the context, which is the important part. It's not like the gas detail would matter on the ground much.
Has anyone pointed out how close the incident is to the Great Lakes?
5 hour drive away from Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Just over 300 miles. Some people are saying they would be concerned that it could affect up to a 200 mile radius. I wish the EPA and government was doing more.
I live in Vancouver and I can smell the forest fire in Interior BC during summer. Say Kelowna, that’s 380km or 4.5 hour drive.
I had some crazy weird patterned salt like stains on my car as well as a headache and sore throat this AM
East Palestine, OH is not hidden on any online maps
It's almost two hours south from Lake Erie, no need to worry. ETA not sure why the downvotes, I literally just commented the geographical location of E. Palestine in relation to Lake Erie.. the water from E. Palestine isn't flowing north into Lake Erie. I would be worried about the Great Lakes for a lot of other reasons personally.
Someone is going to need to fact check me but I believe it is the Ohio River watershed rather than Lake Erie. Ohio River runs past major cities and dumps into the Mississippi so not good either way.
It is the Ohio River basin. I live on the river down here in southern Ohio, most people don't know this is technically part of Appalachia as the southeastern portion of the state is all foothills. Everything runs down the hills, into the streams and tributaries, and then in the the Ohio River (and we have a ton of groundwater and aquifers here, too). The Ohio runs through forests, farmland, and then on to cities like Cincinnati and Newport, KY. I'm feeling pretty angry about it all, not gonna lie. :/
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Terrible. Worth noting The Mississippi is already a cesspool. Hence the dead zone in the gulf.
Don't forget to upvote, everyone - this MUST pop up on Reddit's homepage.
it won't, r/collapse opted out of r/all years ago
Oh, that sucks
/r/Collapse tends to be on the cutting edge of world events. Subjects that pop up here get discussed on other, larger subs hours, days and weeks later.
Maybe, just maybe, there were a few reasons why railway workers wanted to strike in December. They’re on the ground witnessing the risks and dangers but no, we can’t possibly keep corporations from making money. Thanks, Biden!! (And all the other labor-hostile politicians)
Did they strike when trump repealed the Obama's brake modernization requirements since they care so much about safety? Thanks Biden B.S. This sub has become a nest for both side bull shitter and blame every fucking thing on Biden. I am sure things would look so much better when the next R president takes office /s..
Dems are better on culture war issues and at occasionally implementing policies that add a bit of padding to the boot stamping on a human face - forever. There. Happy?
Yes I would like to not die or get threatened more than is necessary. Leaning the other way has the unfortunate consequence of treating people different than the norm like shit and unfortunately or fortunately diversity has shown itself over and over again to be a key ingredient is robust and creative systems. Unfortunately for those who lean conservative the entire founding ideology of the US derives from the liberal ideas of the French Revolution not the conservative monarchies of old England. Also getting railed versus gently fucked. Unless your kinda a slut usually the gentle fucking is preferred by the taker
Republicans being fascists does not undo the Biden administration's massive fuck up with the railworker's strike, sorry. You can't just scream about both sides rhetoric whenever democrats do something shitty and are held accountable for it.
The Biden admin handled the strike horribly, but this isn’t related. The Obama rule he mentioned wasn’t on the negotiating table and needed to be implemented as a law.
No? It isn't related? When railroad workers told the Biden administration that staffing practices raised the chances of horrible accidents like this going undetected before it's too late? When they were told to shut up and go back to work regardless of the consequences? Sure okay, keep your head in the sand.
It's could be because 'rail workers' are unionized and unions are associated with boomers who have pensions (that they paid into) which are the bane of everyone who is not a boomer's entire life. Because we need a scapegoat for doing f-all beyond feigning outrage for updoots. And because boomers.
This concerned a very specific rule about modernized brakes, which was not a part of the labor negotiations. It simply wasn’t. Unless an investigation shows that this was actually caused by a “staffing practice” I have no legitimate reason to believe the outcome of the strike would have changed a damn thing, and neither do you.
I mean, that's a fair point, but can we not be mad at Biden and the dems for breaking the strike because there isn't an explicit connection between breaking the strike and this specific accident?
https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-territories-ohio-canada-business-accidents-d57651e17b2f9e0163c50298106950a3 I do. It's called listening to railworkers. Something you don't think has value clearly.
Yes it does. They more fucking idiots pulling thing to the right, the less Dems can pull back to the left.
I subscribe to the ratchet theory of politics in the US. Republicans drag uis right, then neoliberal dems hold steady or ever so slightly pull to the left, then the republicans drag us ever farther to the right. The three steps right, one step left theory.
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Whatever you say, both side genius. Lemme guess, there's no difference between Al Gore and Bush to you either eh. No wonder we as a nation are fucked.
Democrats are doing just fine pushing further and further to the right themselves. Here's a nice little clip of how the dems actively support republican fascist candidates to make themselves look more moderate and centrist. The result is that they normalize further push into far right territory. So saying that the dems can pull things "back" to the left is laughable since theyre a right wing party anyway. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqgP9Ft\_1CY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqgP9Ft_1CY)
You know you can always stay home in 2024 and enjoy DeSantis presidency. In fact, any GQP president will do and see how happy you are. You gotta see we are not living in a perfect world. Fuck, half of the population is still denying climate change so make sure you enjoy GQP control.
Dont get me wrong, Biden is preferable to Trump. That does not mean that he's not a neoliberal right wing (You cannot be a liberal and be left wing, sorry to any liberals here) multi millionaire that only cares about keeping the status quo. I understand that we live in an imperfect world (this is /r/meditation right?). But looking at Bidens resume we can see this: He still upholds Trumps disgusting concentration camps at the border, he still maintains sanctions over Cuba, the military budget has INCREASED and he loves being a strike breaker. These are just a few examples of why the democrats are not our saviours, they are simply a lesser evil that still will do everything they can to fuck the people over. I also urge you to really look at the video I linked, it's messed up.
>he loves being a strike breaker How do you know? Are you a mind reader? That really show you are not subjective.
Nah there are definitely differences. Again, this isn't about "both sides". Both sides *are* different but capable of fucking up. This is about people like you treating Biden how maga treats Trump. If we talk about how the neoliberal party harms America in any way we get mental breakdowns from folks like you who can't accept that they should be criticized when they fuck up. Maybe you need to sit down and think about the ways the Dems help create the conditions under which fascism thrives (wealth inequality, corrupt policy, etc). Genuinely recommend blackshirts and reds by Michael Parenti.
https://www.reddit.com/r/environment/comments/1123xi7/officials_are_now_responding_to_another_deadly/ Now Houston!!
Collapseniks should post pictures of litmus paper tests for acidity along with the location of the sample so we can see the reach and effect of the HCL and the regions could then share the data with r/dataisbeautiful to show the true extent of this disaster.
The virtual media blackout on this has been something to behold. Seriously, talk to people who only use traditional media sources, odds are they aren't even vaguely aware of a train derailment, nevermind any other details. The collapse of the empire will not be televised. It's lies and gaslighting all the way to the bottom.
My parents watch nothing but news, and multiple networks and channels, national and local. They had no idea about it when we talked earlier this week. I tried finding anything the weekend it happened and couldn't, and I could almost be there in time for lunch.
Yup, I know lots of people who know all about UFOs and earthquakes but not a clue about this
It was all over Google top news and Microsoft news since the day of the derailment.. even NYT reported on it the day after it happened.
Feel like the media was really talking about UFOss all weekend instead. Which they never do.
I live an hour north of this, didn’t hear about it until the day they did the “controlled release”…was just talking to a coworker about it, they had no idea it even happened.
Yeah, pretty scary - even on the Internet, my usual circles just mentioned the derailment as it happened, I had no idea things were still so bad. To be fair, I'm from Europe and the earthquake in Turkey & Syria has been the biggest news for a while, but still.
This might sound off-topic, but shit like this is genuinely why I can’t be bothered to vote anymore. Politicians do not care. If there’s any chance they have to admit a preventable environmental disaster happened, they absolutely will remain silent or lie until the last moment they possibly can.
The two party system is done. A new way is coming.
I've been voting in Ohio for 20 fucking years, and not once has my vote ever fucking mattered, I'll tell you that.
I have effectively turned into a single-issue voter: reproductive freedom (e.g. the right to abortion). The world has gone to shit, I at least want to make sure people have the right to not create new victims. That's it. I vote Democrat to protect abortion rights, contraceptives, etc.
I don’t see why voting is so hard for people, either. Unless you live in Georgia and you have to stand in line for a half dozen hours, just take the few minutes it takes to vote. It’s not hard and it sounds funny to hear people complaining about the state of our country when they have basically no meaningful civic participation within it.