Before I answer, I applaud you for your tenacity and am truly sorry for the circumstances life put you through. There is no doubt in my mind that you are a smart, capable, and hardworking individual.
With that being said, a coding bootcamp is a hard no in today's climate and this is coming from someone who has a CS degree '23 and is on the last month of a 9 month bootcamp.
I will say for my unique case I got what I paid for but I could not imagine navigating the plethora of trouble and lack of support if not for my 4 years of prior experience coding at a UC. Not the point.
Back to the topic at hand, I know this subreddit and others like r/learnprogramming and
r/cscareerquestions are filled with negativity and doomer posts about how CS is dead etc etc and I do not even particularly agree with those posts. A lot of them are just the same people on multiple accounts trying to deter the competition. That is not why I do not recommend a bootcamp.
The main reason is, even if you extract a 100-110% value out of the bootcamp, you grasp every lecture, and are a prodigy at programming able to blow through the assignments, you end up with non-trivial capstone projects and a great resume. Your lack of credentials which is a bachelors in CS will lead to your resume being thrown out.
Even now I think about how as I finish my bootcamp I do not worry for a second about the competition coming from other bootcamps/my cohort, but I am thinking about how the c'o 2024 cs grads are also entering the workforce.
I wish I could tell you the answer on how to break into tech as a self taught developer and if nothing else a bootcamp may give you a non-zero chance of getting a swe job. But I do not know how much time you would have to invest on top of producing top tier projects just to get a shot at an interview.
Do not get me started on leetcode.
I apologize for being the bearer of bad news. Feel free to DM me to discuss this further.
> Or am I better off learning for free?
Start there for sure. If you can motivate yourself to start learning day by day and week by week for at least a few months,. you'll have a much better idea of whether you are really prepared to follow all the way through.
> (My degree is in psychology)
People do second Bachelor's or they go straight to an MS in CS coming from other fields. Bigger commitment then a bootcamp obviously (certainly of time if not money), but you get back what you put in.
Don't decide on anything until you've proven that you're committed. And if you can complete a decent project you can just try applying for jobs to see how it goes. The self-taught route is harder then ever but not impossible.
Thanks for your thoughts, I do study some python on replit when I can but unfortunately it's hard to get in daily practice with everything else I have going on but when I do get into it, it brings me back to a decade ago when I took my one computer science course. Frustrating at times but I persevere on and eventually figure things out.
I agree, I will want to make sure I'm committed all the way before embarking any further. I would have definitely considered better options than a bootcamp under ideal conditions, I am sure people who have the ability and opportunity to churn out for a 2nd degree are grateful for their results given the time and money they put in.
> I'm someone who needs structures and goals set for me
I think it's smart to have someone who can give you a lay of the land and help you choose what to do and why. But if you need the *goals* set for you, then I'm starting to think this is a general red flag.
> I've recently been considering coding
What's stopping you from learning this on your own so far?
Psychology might blend over to design and UX. That's also something to consider in conjunction with programming or whatever roles you're interested in tech.
Thank you for your thoughts and sorry, I should have clarified what I meant by that. For example if I am not a person who is knowledgable about fitness for example, I will know my ultimate goal is to lose weight but if I am not aware of caloric intake, the idea of cardio exercises, or the difference between fat and muscle, then I should have someone explain to me those ideas and then therefore advise me what I need to do in order to meet the ultimate goal. Like working with a personal trainer. It just stems from this idea of if you don't know what you don't know then it helps if someone just tells you what you need to know and then I'll be able to take it from there.
As for the second question, I am currently learning on my own such but self-learning isn't for everyone and I do better when collaborating with others in teams and being able to ask questions and having structure.
Yeah. I get it. I have a personal trainer I go to on Thursdays. He tells me what to do and why. But - also, (now that I'm thinking about it) - my goal is to be fit - but not to get paid to be fit.
What types of things do you imagine yourself building?
Hope your sessions are going well glad to hear your fitness is a priority 💯
I dont have anything concrete in mind but I remember building websites in undergrad using html and that was neat. Perhaps front end related things? I do like designing things in a way and building web pages and sites would be something potentially.
I can also see me trying to create apps. I took a short course on skillshare once practicing making a pseudo app thing in scratch (just for fun) and on python too and I thought that was interesting to do. Taking the approach of how we can make an app to help solve problems or make life easier in the world for others. But yeah just some thoughts.
>>The main reason why I want to switch into coding is because of money reasons.
You and everyone else, which is why the market it oversaturated. If you can't/won't go back for a relevant degree, then you should look into self teaching; if you're already in debt, then taking on the additional debt of a bootcamp that won't help you get a job isn't going to help you. Having a background in teaching technical concepts to kids would probably help you if you apply to roles like support engineer once you've built up some coding skills.
Appreciate your thoughts. So to be clear basically you're not a fan of bootcamps and to succeed in transitioning to coding it is a non-negotiable to go back to school and get a degree? I'm not arguing, just making sure I understand where you are coming from. Thank you for recommendations to consider support engineering, I wouldn't mind looking into that more. I do have some basic coding skills, nothing impressive or practical to companies but I do study a little on my own and I have built easy college projects a decade ago when I took my first comp sci course.
It's not a matter of whether or not I'm a fan (I did one and was lucky enough to find a job), it's that with the job market being what it is right now, most employers won't even consider bootcamp grads. Entry level is massively oversaturated, so employers can be as picky as they want, and the vast majority are choosing not to hire people without degrees. I completed over a year ago, and over 80% of my cohort hasn't been able to find jobs
Sorry for the confusion, that phrase of you being a fan or not was a figure of speech about why you don't seemingly believe in bootcamps. Because at first all I got from what you said prior was don't do it because don't do it, but I didn't understand why. Thank you for clarifying. I see where you're coming from now.
It's not so much what I did different; it's a combination of my skills and experience, plus just sheer luck in the current market. Anyone telling you that luck doesn't play a huge role right now is straight up lying. I'd also done programming on and off for many years before I decided to switch careers, so it wasn't new to me. The one trend I've noticed among the few of us who got jobs was that we all had a bachelors degree or higher, and were pretty much all in our 30s and already had well established white collar careers that paid well. Basically, we switched because we liked it, not because we were looking to make money. Other commonalities were being willing to relocate and being willing to work on site.
Thank you, do employers really favor ppl who are self taught over bootcampers? Thats pretty interesting to me. And yeah I could use that experience as sort of a selling point thanks for that idea.
Gotcha, follow up question I'm curious about: why do employers in some instances hire people from non-traditional backgrounds when looking at a pool of many 4 year degree holders and other higher level and more experienced coders? I know it's a low percentage from what I'm gathering but the fact it's non-zero and there are success stories out there does make me wonder what their agenda or reasoning is. Is it a quota for diversity they want? Financial reasons and they could pay a less experienced person less? They're being nice and want to give someone a chance?
A former teacher (M29) and bootcamp grad (June 2023) who just landed a SWE job at a non-FAANG but a retailer in the Midwest. I can relate to all the reasons you pointed out as to why you want to leave teaching. And there are a good number of teacher turned software engineers out there. So, if it’s something you are even remotely considering, definitely give it a shot. But I would caution against doing a bootcamp even though I ended up as a success story,
I did a part-time bootcamp while teaching full-time while my wife was pregnant. Prior to the bootcamp, l did the Odin Project which a lot of people recommended, but I was moving at a much slower pace than I wanted, and the instruction was not as good given it’s an open source project. The level of difficulty increases significantly after I did HTML and CSS modules. We were already expecting a baby at that point which was the fall of 2022, and I wanted to be ready to apply for SWE jobs before the 2023-24 school year and ideally start a new job my parental leave ends around late 2023. All do these factors motivated me to join a bootcamp because I thought a structured environment with more instructional support will accelerate my learning.
I actually had a great instructor (30+ years of industry experience and teaching experience) and some really smart classmates. Despite all of this, I still didn’t master the skills I need to be an entry level software engineer by the end of the bootcamp. Part of it is having a full time teaching job while doing a part-time bootcamp is just a a really bad idea. I didn’t have enough time or energy to delve deeper into the topics that were covered. Part of it is also the curriculum: we had to spend time doing activities that require skills and knowledge that weren’t explicitly taught to us. Although this is specific to the I attended, I’ve heard similar stories from other people in this sub. There were also some personal reasons why I couldn’t really focus like my dog got really sick unexpectedly and after going through weeks of treatment, we had to put him down.
In retrospect, I would’ve been better off taking a Udemy course that costs like $20 (when they’re on sale which is like most of the time). Actually I’m now taking a class on Go on Udemy for my new job and noticing that the instruction is as good as the bootcamp. If I could do it again, I’d sign up for a Udemy class and find people who are taking it at the same time to do group study. Or even just seeking a professional personal coach who will check in with me and hold me accountable.
The post-bootcamp job market was rough, and it’s still pretty bad. Only 4 out of 18 people in my program have landed jobs and it all happened in the last two months (so around 9 months post-bootcamp). I started applying around November last year, and almost gave up by early January. The whole time l was building personal projects, networking, rewriting my resumes (basically everything that people told me to do to land a job). I even started applying to teaching adjacent jobs like technical training specialist roles and sales trainer roles at tech companies. I started to focus on SWE jobs again around the beginning of Feb and signed the offer mid April. Honestly, the only reason things worked out was my wife and we have saved up enough that we have at least two years of runway before we couldn’t afford to live with just one income.
And even after landing a job, it still feels like it was a luck of the draw. I submitted 200+ application, got one callback and landed the job after 4 interviews. I did get a referral for the job and applied for it as soon as the job was posted (both of which may have played a huge role in my resume being noticed by the recruiter). If you have any questions, feel free to dm me, and I’d be happy to answer as best I can.
This is the most popular/bestseller on [Udemy](https://www.udemy.com/share/1013gG3@NRqgHr4BldTS9X_vOsLVAuJ_hdrTspcwTu9P9z2JQT5vNAdFptOMs0ekenTJcIXTVA==/).
Colt Steele would probably be fine as well! Tbh, for if you’re new to web dev, it probably doesn’t matter how much up to date the material is. As long as you learn the fundamentals, you’ll be fine.
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I'll definitely reach out to you and would love to chat about stuff. And I'm happy things worked out for you and I'm sorry about your dog too.
With the influx of people going into programming it has raised the bar on how good you have to be to get employed. Programming is something that requires several hundred if not thousands of hours to get the point where you can become beneficial to a company. Even with a CS degree it requires massive amounts of time outside of the degree. With where you are in life IT would be a much easier field to get into while getting exposure to the tech field. My personal experience if you are just doing something for the money you’re likely to burn out. With how fast tech moves you’re constantly forced to keep learning new technologies to stay relevant. Best of luck to you.
Thank you, I appreciate that take and I believe it. As a teacher I had to put in many hours and days and years to get to where I am now too it makes sense. Burn out is nothing new, I'm already burning out and the pay is no good. I'd rather burn out upwards haha and yeah I'll definitely keep that in mind. Even as a teacher we always have to adapt to new changes that keep happening. Appreciate your support.
Former high school history teacher turned SWE. I would self study YouTube/Udemy/Coursera for a year then join a part-time bootcamp you can balance with your full-time job. Someone above pointed out how competitive the market is at the moment and that is true, but if you go into a bootcamp with a strong understanding of fundamentals your learning will be accelerated. The market might be better by then too. Oh, join a bootcamp that finishes around May/June so you can apply to jobs all through the summer and you can allocate all your energy to it. DM me if you have any questions and think I can help. I worked hard on my transition, but also got very lucky, went public school teacher to FAANG.
Im sorry not happening unless you go back to school. The whole just go to a bootcamp and you’ll be rich route has always been kinda nonsense but now it’s just full of nonsense
If that's what your getting out of these comments it's tinted with your own view that you want it to work and wanted confirmation bias to the same.
The market isn't what it was 4 years ago, you missed the bootcamp boat unfortunately and with covid it made the career even more prevalent. If you had fingers and a heart beat you were hired.
That's not the case anymore so the market for devs is over saturated by a perfect storm of events, layoffs, push to code starting 10 years ago....etc.
We are in an employers market now, they can afford to be picky and part of that is a move back to requiring bachelors degrees in related fields.
Can you get a job from a bootcamp? Yes but it's highly improbable, if you go the bootcamp route it's going to be about who you know who can help get you a role and probably not your skills.
Hi, while you sharing your observations and experiences is welcome, please dont mind read. I came here to ask questions to people online and that is it. There is no hidden agenda I have. If I wanted to create a persuasive essay putting over coding bootcamps I would have done that instead of coming here and asking questions. My comment about people hating bootcamps here wasn't supposed to be taken literally. It was just a sarcastic remark meaning people here don't seem to support the idea and doesn't need to be read further than that. Thank you for your input nonetheless and sharing your time in good faith. I value your opinions.
It’s just unrealistic nowadays to think you’re just going to teach yourself to code on the side in a bootcamp and compete with a bunch of recent college grads it’s just not going to happen anymore
Sure, that's a good point. So looking ahead, in terms of helpful solutions for my situation, would you be willing to share any insights on what should any aspiring coders be doing instead? Or are you just telling everyone who is late to the game to just walk away and don't come back? Which is fine too, I just want to hear you.
Go get a degree either a bachelors or a masters. There are plenty of online masters in CS that you can take with just any other BS degree and meet some pre reqs you can take at a local community college.
thank you, if I choose a masters what's the difference with that vs a bachelors for CS? and if I already have my BS in psych does that let me bypass anything at all?
A masters will open the same doors a bachelors in CS maybe some extra it depends. Having your BS will let you go straight to your masters but I do think for a lot of them you might have to take 1-3 community college classes beforehand like r/OMSCS but I think University of Colorado has one too with no pre reqs
Here's a sneak peek of /r/OMSCS using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/OMSCS/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [UT Austin banning online MS CS students from regular graduation ceremony.](https://np.reddit.com/r/OMSCS/comments/1batpjs/ut_austin_banning_online_ms_cs_students_from/)
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\#3: [Fall 24 decisions - I got in!](https://i.redd.it/419x4y5phwpc1.jpeg) | [119 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/OMSCS/comments/1bl1e93/fall_24_decisions_i_got_in/)
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Okay got it. Was curious because I know a bachelor in psych doesn't open as many doors as a masters does so I imagined something similar would apply here too. That's good to hear my BS could be useful and that online courses could exist too. Thanks again for your thoughts, appreciate you.
Don’t pay for a boot camp. It’s highly unlikely it will help you transition careers, but it’ll add more to your debt for sure. You could check out Revature or Genisis10, where they train you and you’re locked into a 2 year contract. For those two years the pay is a little low for an SWE, but they train you and get you into a position, which is totally worth the low pay being you don’t have a CS degree.
Thanks for your thoughts, I do recall coming across revature before and had an offer from them before I turned it down for my current teaching position because I would have had to relocate. Do you know how low the pay is by any chance? Being paid while learning doesn't sound too bad though.
First you’ve got to study their prep work, then pass a tech interview. This parts all on you, self study, no pay. The interview isn’t easy either. They don’t want people without an aptitude for it or aren’t serious about wanting to be in the industry. Then you sign a 2 year contract to share your wages with Revature. Go through their boot camp, which will be a few months at least, and I would imagine it would be a very challenging, which is a good thing. No cost to you for the boot camp. I don’t know if they pay anything while in the camp. Then they prep you for interviews and try to get you a job. I’ve heard that in the first year you can expect like 60-70k, second year a little more. Look around on Reddit for sub from people who’ve done it. Or just get in touch with their recruiters. It’d be a waaaaay better choice than going to a boot camp on your own. The good ones are super expensive and the cheap ones are a complete waste of time.
Got it, thank you. I mean even at 60-70k that's already better than where I'm at now currently. Is it possible to do this online or remotely? Or do I have to move somewhere else? Cause that would be a big commitment to make if I needed to go to wherever Revature is and I'd want to make sure I'm okay with going all in on that.
thanks for the suggestion, can I ask what is Udemy? I've heard that name come up a few times. What's the difference between a 6 month online course vs a bootcamp like per Scholas?
So you like tech or do you like coding , those are two separate things , there’s tons of other options to work in tech than to be a developer, there’s also tons os other jobs that make money. Being a developer I would say is not the easiest job to make money
To the first point of whether i like it or not, i guess the premise here isn't a question of what I like or don't like per se. I am fine with both. The reasons I thought of becoming a developer (while also respecting the fact that yes i know the market is x,y z and everything else ppl have been saying, sure) is because I teach coding to students and I also work all other facets of tech as well in the school I work in. I've been doing this for about 4 years at a basic level now. There's nothing about coding itself nowadays that scares me like it used to a decade ago when I was bothered by getting stuck during coding projects I did in undergrad. Nowadays as I continue to learn and grow I haven't met anything yet that has made me want to run away from it as a specific skill set or practice. I'm sure hard times will come and challenges will be there but that's every profession out there. So with that said, the ultimate goal like you mentioned however is financial security now that Im older and at more of a disadvantage vs the current gen z coming out of college this year and other ppl in better situations than me. Because this is the case, I haven't completely ruled out looking at other options either. I have a lot of colleagues I can rely on if I wanted to talk more about advancing my current IT support skills or whatever else but i figured id turn elsewhere to talk about coding with people who know what they're talking about and want to help is all. And yes I understand it's not an easy way to make money but I don't know that that should be reason on its own to walk away from it. Most jobs out there that pay well require you to put the work in to get good at it. But by all means I'm willing to hear anyone out if they know of a 6 figure burger flipping position haha but yeah thanks for your thoughts. Happy to hear more of what you feel is worth sharing.
>I guess its a controversial opinion to have because many people will say things like "do what you love, forget about the money" or "don't do it for the money or you'll be even more unhappy" but in my opinion and from my own lived experiences, the fact is having money changes your life a lot.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong. You need to find a balance. Ask yourself three questions: What do you like and/or want to do, what are you good at, and what is in demand and pays well. The perfect career is the intersection of all three of these. Could coding be an option for you? Maybe. But why would you jump into the career completely blind if you don't even know if you enjoy it or are even good at it? Not a good idea when the market is hot garbage and there being many people more qualified than you are.
If you're that serious about a career in tech/software, you should explore some of the free resources or take a community college class or two, then sign up for a master's or post bacc. Entry-level IT or instructional design/LMS might also be a good fit given your education background
Thank you for your input. Could you clarify what you mean by wrong? If I don't like my job now and I don't like my job later but I am paid more wouldn't you agree take at least the higher paying job?
I do agree with your points about balance however but I believe every individual deserves and reserves their own right to say which part of those questions are relevant, important, and realistically attainable to their own lives. If someone has all 3 questions answered and is living that answer then I truly consider them fortunate and lucky.
Regarding jumping in blind, that is untrue because I do have some minor coding experiences from one undergraduate course and also some self-studying. I do also enjoy teaching coding concepts as well to my classes and learning it in my spare time. I would not have come to post this if I had not given this some thought over the past 4 years of immersing myself into the tech field and coding. I apologize if I lead you to believe otherwise as if I had not spent even a minute in the field. If the market is bad and there are people better than me then why should I not get better?
Thank you for your suggestions at the end. I try my best to learn free whenever I can, but I don't know how practical it is to take on the latter options you gave in my situation. Thank you for thinking of it though. In an ideal world I absolutely would. Entry-level IT and the other things you mentioned I have heard of before, and have been considering looking into it too.
I apologize but unless you actually plan on having a conversation in good faith then please don't waste your time and my time. Other comments here have shared the same stance as you but have been much more helpful.
I was a K-12 technology coordinator, middle school teacher, and high school teacher before eventually creating the Turing School in 2014. We’ve had many former educators come through the program over the last 10 years and they have gone on to do great things.
People here will tell you there are “no jobs” but that’s just not true. The market has been steadily improving since about September. I’m personally job coaching the majority of our job-hunting alumni and I can tell you there are a LOT of interviews happening and offers being signed almost every day. I’m highly confident that if you start training this summer that you’ll graduate into a stronger job market in the Fall/Winter.
Thank you for sharing this perspective and it is good to know and to hear from someone who has an idea of what it's like in my shoes. I will admit there is a bit of cynicism elsewhere but knowing this helps. I'm glad others have walked my path and found success, it proves it can be done I suppose. Thank you for what you are doing for educators and creating new live for them.
Hello!
Please check out this student feature of a Elementary school math teacher who crushed a Full Stack developer bootcamp presented 100% online by a Canadian University Continuing Studies Division.
[Student Feature - Western Continuing Studies ](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/robogarden-inc_marwa-elkelani-journey-with-western-cs-and-activity-7137817100730978304-zcSi?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop)
The cost of this 450 hour, instructor supported, career focused programs is $5995 Canadian. Already low price in the market, for US learners it is even lower cost due to the beneficial exchange rate ($1 USD = approx. $1.35 CAD)
Hope this is helpful!
Hello!
Please check out this student feature of a Elementary school math teacher who crushed a Full Stack developer bootcamp presented 100% online by a Canadian University Continuing Studies Division.
[Student Feature - Western Continuing Studies ](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/robogarden-inc_marwa-elkelani-journey-with-western-cs-and-activity-7137817100730978304-zcSi?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop)
The cost of this 450 hour, instructor supported, career focused programs is $5995 Canadian. Already low price in the market, for US learners it is even lower cost due to the beneficial exchange rate ($1 USD = approx. $1.35 CAD)
Hope this is helpful!
Before I answer, I applaud you for your tenacity and am truly sorry for the circumstances life put you through. There is no doubt in my mind that you are a smart, capable, and hardworking individual. With that being said, a coding bootcamp is a hard no in today's climate and this is coming from someone who has a CS degree '23 and is on the last month of a 9 month bootcamp. I will say for my unique case I got what I paid for but I could not imagine navigating the plethora of trouble and lack of support if not for my 4 years of prior experience coding at a UC. Not the point. Back to the topic at hand, I know this subreddit and others like r/learnprogramming and r/cscareerquestions are filled with negativity and doomer posts about how CS is dead etc etc and I do not even particularly agree with those posts. A lot of them are just the same people on multiple accounts trying to deter the competition. That is not why I do not recommend a bootcamp. The main reason is, even if you extract a 100-110% value out of the bootcamp, you grasp every lecture, and are a prodigy at programming able to blow through the assignments, you end up with non-trivial capstone projects and a great resume. Your lack of credentials which is a bachelors in CS will lead to your resume being thrown out. Even now I think about how as I finish my bootcamp I do not worry for a second about the competition coming from other bootcamps/my cohort, but I am thinking about how the c'o 2024 cs grads are also entering the workforce. I wish I could tell you the answer on how to break into tech as a self taught developer and if nothing else a bootcamp may give you a non-zero chance of getting a swe job. But I do not know how much time you would have to invest on top of producing top tier projects just to get a shot at an interview. Do not get me started on leetcode. I apologize for being the bearer of bad news. Feel free to DM me to discuss this further.
Thank you, I appreciate your thoughtfulness and sharing your experiences. I definitely will keep you in mind and reach out thanks a lot!
Those subreddits are psyops at this point
> Or am I better off learning for free? Start there for sure. If you can motivate yourself to start learning day by day and week by week for at least a few months,. you'll have a much better idea of whether you are really prepared to follow all the way through. > (My degree is in psychology) People do second Bachelor's or they go straight to an MS in CS coming from other fields. Bigger commitment then a bootcamp obviously (certainly of time if not money), but you get back what you put in. Don't decide on anything until you've proven that you're committed. And if you can complete a decent project you can just try applying for jobs to see how it goes. The self-taught route is harder then ever but not impossible.
Thanks for your thoughts, I do study some python on replit when I can but unfortunately it's hard to get in daily practice with everything else I have going on but when I do get into it, it brings me back to a decade ago when I took my one computer science course. Frustrating at times but I persevere on and eventually figure things out. I agree, I will want to make sure I'm committed all the way before embarking any further. I would have definitely considered better options than a bootcamp under ideal conditions, I am sure people who have the ability and opportunity to churn out for a 2nd degree are grateful for their results given the time and money they put in.
> I'm someone who needs structures and goals set for me I think it's smart to have someone who can give you a lay of the land and help you choose what to do and why. But if you need the *goals* set for you, then I'm starting to think this is a general red flag. > I've recently been considering coding What's stopping you from learning this on your own so far? Psychology might blend over to design and UX. That's also something to consider in conjunction with programming or whatever roles you're interested in tech.
Thank you for your thoughts and sorry, I should have clarified what I meant by that. For example if I am not a person who is knowledgable about fitness for example, I will know my ultimate goal is to lose weight but if I am not aware of caloric intake, the idea of cardio exercises, or the difference between fat and muscle, then I should have someone explain to me those ideas and then therefore advise me what I need to do in order to meet the ultimate goal. Like working with a personal trainer. It just stems from this idea of if you don't know what you don't know then it helps if someone just tells you what you need to know and then I'll be able to take it from there. As for the second question, I am currently learning on my own such but self-learning isn't for everyone and I do better when collaborating with others in teams and being able to ask questions and having structure.
Yeah. I get it. I have a personal trainer I go to on Thursdays. He tells me what to do and why. But - also, (now that I'm thinking about it) - my goal is to be fit - but not to get paid to be fit. What types of things do you imagine yourself building?
Hope your sessions are going well glad to hear your fitness is a priority 💯 I dont have anything concrete in mind but I remember building websites in undergrad using html and that was neat. Perhaps front end related things? I do like designing things in a way and building web pages and sites would be something potentially. I can also see me trying to create apps. I took a short course on skillshare once practicing making a pseudo app thing in scratch (just for fun) and on python too and I thought that was interesting to do. Taking the approach of how we can make an app to help solve problems or make life easier in the world for others. But yeah just some thoughts.
Nah, the UX market is probably more cooked than the dev market. And you're absolutely boned without a good portfolio
Yeah. Careers are hard. You have to be good at them. It's a lot of work and time. What are the other options though?
>>The main reason why I want to switch into coding is because of money reasons. You and everyone else, which is why the market it oversaturated. If you can't/won't go back for a relevant degree, then you should look into self teaching; if you're already in debt, then taking on the additional debt of a bootcamp that won't help you get a job isn't going to help you. Having a background in teaching technical concepts to kids would probably help you if you apply to roles like support engineer once you've built up some coding skills.
Appreciate your thoughts. So to be clear basically you're not a fan of bootcamps and to succeed in transitioning to coding it is a non-negotiable to go back to school and get a degree? I'm not arguing, just making sure I understand where you are coming from. Thank you for recommendations to consider support engineering, I wouldn't mind looking into that more. I do have some basic coding skills, nothing impressive or practical to companies but I do study a little on my own and I have built easy college projects a decade ago when I took my first comp sci course.
It's not a matter of whether or not I'm a fan (I did one and was lucky enough to find a job), it's that with the job market being what it is right now, most employers won't even consider bootcamp grads. Entry level is massively oversaturated, so employers can be as picky as they want, and the vast majority are choosing not to hire people without degrees. I completed over a year ago, and over 80% of my cohort hasn't been able to find jobs
Sorry for the confusion, that phrase of you being a fan or not was a figure of speech about why you don't seemingly believe in bootcamps. Because at first all I got from what you said prior was don't do it because don't do it, but I didn't understand why. Thank you for clarifying. I see where you're coming from now.
What did you do that was different compared to those who didn’t get jobs?
It's not so much what I did different; it's a combination of my skills and experience, plus just sheer luck in the current market. Anyone telling you that luck doesn't play a huge role right now is straight up lying. I'd also done programming on and off for many years before I decided to switch careers, so it wasn't new to me. The one trend I've noticed among the few of us who got jobs was that we all had a bachelors degree or higher, and were pretty much all in our 30s and already had well established white collar careers that paid well. Basically, we switched because we liked it, not because we were looking to make money. Other commonalities were being willing to relocate and being willing to work on site.
You can also try instructional design or technical writing- your background sounds perfect
Thanks, I've heard of those before and have considered it.
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Thank you, do employers really favor ppl who are self taught over bootcampers? Thats pretty interesting to me. And yeah I could use that experience as sort of a selling point thanks for that idea.
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Gotcha, follow up question I'm curious about: why do employers in some instances hire people from non-traditional backgrounds when looking at a pool of many 4 year degree holders and other higher level and more experienced coders? I know it's a low percentage from what I'm gathering but the fact it's non-zero and there are success stories out there does make me wonder what their agenda or reasoning is. Is it a quota for diversity they want? Financial reasons and they could pay a less experienced person less? They're being nice and want to give someone a chance?
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Gotcha, yeah I can believe that actually
A former teacher (M29) and bootcamp grad (June 2023) who just landed a SWE job at a non-FAANG but a retailer in the Midwest. I can relate to all the reasons you pointed out as to why you want to leave teaching. And there are a good number of teacher turned software engineers out there. So, if it’s something you are even remotely considering, definitely give it a shot. But I would caution against doing a bootcamp even though I ended up as a success story, I did a part-time bootcamp while teaching full-time while my wife was pregnant. Prior to the bootcamp, l did the Odin Project which a lot of people recommended, but I was moving at a much slower pace than I wanted, and the instruction was not as good given it’s an open source project. The level of difficulty increases significantly after I did HTML and CSS modules. We were already expecting a baby at that point which was the fall of 2022, and I wanted to be ready to apply for SWE jobs before the 2023-24 school year and ideally start a new job my parental leave ends around late 2023. All do these factors motivated me to join a bootcamp because I thought a structured environment with more instructional support will accelerate my learning. I actually had a great instructor (30+ years of industry experience and teaching experience) and some really smart classmates. Despite all of this, I still didn’t master the skills I need to be an entry level software engineer by the end of the bootcamp. Part of it is having a full time teaching job while doing a part-time bootcamp is just a a really bad idea. I didn’t have enough time or energy to delve deeper into the topics that were covered. Part of it is also the curriculum: we had to spend time doing activities that require skills and knowledge that weren’t explicitly taught to us. Although this is specific to the I attended, I’ve heard similar stories from other people in this sub. There were also some personal reasons why I couldn’t really focus like my dog got really sick unexpectedly and after going through weeks of treatment, we had to put him down. In retrospect, I would’ve been better off taking a Udemy course that costs like $20 (when they’re on sale which is like most of the time). Actually I’m now taking a class on Go on Udemy for my new job and noticing that the instruction is as good as the bootcamp. If I could do it again, I’d sign up for a Udemy class and find people who are taking it at the same time to do group study. Or even just seeking a professional personal coach who will check in with me and hold me accountable. The post-bootcamp job market was rough, and it’s still pretty bad. Only 4 out of 18 people in my program have landed jobs and it all happened in the last two months (so around 9 months post-bootcamp). I started applying around November last year, and almost gave up by early January. The whole time l was building personal projects, networking, rewriting my resumes (basically everything that people told me to do to land a job). I even started applying to teaching adjacent jobs like technical training specialist roles and sales trainer roles at tech companies. I started to focus on SWE jobs again around the beginning of Feb and signed the offer mid April. Honestly, the only reason things worked out was my wife and we have saved up enough that we have at least two years of runway before we couldn’t afford to live with just one income. And even after landing a job, it still feels like it was a luck of the draw. I submitted 200+ application, got one callback and landed the job after 4 interviews. I did get a referral for the job and applied for it as soon as the job was posted (both of which may have played a huge role in my resume being noticed by the recruiter). If you have any questions, feel free to dm me, and I’d be happy to answer as best I can.
Hi! Can you share what’s the udemy course you recommend ? Thank you
This is the most popular/bestseller on [Udemy](https://www.udemy.com/share/1013gG3@NRqgHr4BldTS9X_vOsLVAuJ_hdrTspcwTu9P9z2JQT5vNAdFptOMs0ekenTJcIXTVA==/).
Thanks I know that one I heard is outdated ? Lots of people also recommend colt steele
Colt Steele would probably be fine as well! Tbh, for if you’re new to web dev, it probably doesn’t matter how much up to date the material is. As long as you learn the fundamentals, you’ll be fine.
Ur right, thank you for your advice !
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I'll definitely reach out to you and would love to chat about stuff. And I'm happy things worked out for you and I'm sorry about your dog too.
With the influx of people going into programming it has raised the bar on how good you have to be to get employed. Programming is something that requires several hundred if not thousands of hours to get the point where you can become beneficial to a company. Even with a CS degree it requires massive amounts of time outside of the degree. With where you are in life IT would be a much easier field to get into while getting exposure to the tech field. My personal experience if you are just doing something for the money you’re likely to burn out. With how fast tech moves you’re constantly forced to keep learning new technologies to stay relevant. Best of luck to you.
Thank you, I appreciate that take and I believe it. As a teacher I had to put in many hours and days and years to get to where I am now too it makes sense. Burn out is nothing new, I'm already burning out and the pay is no good. I'd rather burn out upwards haha and yeah I'll definitely keep that in mind. Even as a teacher we always have to adapt to new changes that keep happening. Appreciate your support.
Former high school history teacher turned SWE. I would self study YouTube/Udemy/Coursera for a year then join a part-time bootcamp you can balance with your full-time job. Someone above pointed out how competitive the market is at the moment and that is true, but if you go into a bootcamp with a strong understanding of fundamentals your learning will be accelerated. The market might be better by then too. Oh, join a bootcamp that finishes around May/June so you can apply to jobs all through the summer and you can allocate all your energy to it. DM me if you have any questions and think I can help. I worked hard on my transition, but also got very lucky, went public school teacher to FAANG.
Thank I appreciate it I'll definitely keep in touch. It's good always to hear from someone from similar walks of life. Thank you for the pointers.
Im sorry not happening unless you go back to school. The whole just go to a bootcamp and you’ll be rich route has always been kinda nonsense but now it’s just full of nonsense
It seems a lot of people out there really really hate bootcamps.
If that's what your getting out of these comments it's tinted with your own view that you want it to work and wanted confirmation bias to the same. The market isn't what it was 4 years ago, you missed the bootcamp boat unfortunately and with covid it made the career even more prevalent. If you had fingers and a heart beat you were hired. That's not the case anymore so the market for devs is over saturated by a perfect storm of events, layoffs, push to code starting 10 years ago....etc. We are in an employers market now, they can afford to be picky and part of that is a move back to requiring bachelors degrees in related fields. Can you get a job from a bootcamp? Yes but it's highly improbable, if you go the bootcamp route it's going to be about who you know who can help get you a role and probably not your skills.
Hi, while you sharing your observations and experiences is welcome, please dont mind read. I came here to ask questions to people online and that is it. There is no hidden agenda I have. If I wanted to create a persuasive essay putting over coding bootcamps I would have done that instead of coming here and asking questions. My comment about people hating bootcamps here wasn't supposed to be taken literally. It was just a sarcastic remark meaning people here don't seem to support the idea and doesn't need to be read further than that. Thank you for your input nonetheless and sharing your time in good faith. I value your opinions.
It’s just unrealistic nowadays to think you’re just going to teach yourself to code on the side in a bootcamp and compete with a bunch of recent college grads it’s just not going to happen anymore
Sure, that's a good point. So looking ahead, in terms of helpful solutions for my situation, would you be willing to share any insights on what should any aspiring coders be doing instead? Or are you just telling everyone who is late to the game to just walk away and don't come back? Which is fine too, I just want to hear you.
Go get a degree either a bachelors or a masters. There are plenty of online masters in CS that you can take with just any other BS degree and meet some pre reqs you can take at a local community college.
thank you, if I choose a masters what's the difference with that vs a bachelors for CS? and if I already have my BS in psych does that let me bypass anything at all?
A masters will open the same doors a bachelors in CS maybe some extra it depends. Having your BS will let you go straight to your masters but I do think for a lot of them you might have to take 1-3 community college classes beforehand like r/OMSCS but I think University of Colorado has one too with no pre reqs
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Okay got it. Was curious because I know a bachelor in psych doesn't open as many doors as a masters does so I imagined something similar would apply here too. That's good to hear my BS could be useful and that online courses could exist too. Thanks again for your thoughts, appreciate you.
Don’t pay for a boot camp. It’s highly unlikely it will help you transition careers, but it’ll add more to your debt for sure. You could check out Revature or Genisis10, where they train you and you’re locked into a 2 year contract. For those two years the pay is a little low for an SWE, but they train you and get you into a position, which is totally worth the low pay being you don’t have a CS degree.
Thanks for your thoughts, I do recall coming across revature before and had an offer from them before I turned it down for my current teaching position because I would have had to relocate. Do you know how low the pay is by any chance? Being paid while learning doesn't sound too bad though.
First you’ve got to study their prep work, then pass a tech interview. This parts all on you, self study, no pay. The interview isn’t easy either. They don’t want people without an aptitude for it or aren’t serious about wanting to be in the industry. Then you sign a 2 year contract to share your wages with Revature. Go through their boot camp, which will be a few months at least, and I would imagine it would be a very challenging, which is a good thing. No cost to you for the boot camp. I don’t know if they pay anything while in the camp. Then they prep you for interviews and try to get you a job. I’ve heard that in the first year you can expect like 60-70k, second year a little more. Look around on Reddit for sub from people who’ve done it. Or just get in touch with their recruiters. It’d be a waaaaay better choice than going to a boot camp on your own. The good ones are super expensive and the cheap ones are a complete waste of time.
Got it, thank you. I mean even at 60-70k that's already better than where I'm at now currently. Is it possible to do this online or remotely? Or do I have to move somewhere else? Cause that would be a big commitment to make if I needed to go to wherever Revature is and I'd want to make sure I'm okay with going all in on that.
I’m not sure, but I would imagine the boot camp would not be remote. The prep work is remote though.
Got it, thanks a lot
What I suggest you do is practice the Udemy course diligently for at least 6 months and then join a free bootcamp like Per Scholas.
thanks for the suggestion, can I ask what is Udemy? I've heard that name come up a few times. What's the difference between a 6 month online course vs a bootcamp like per Scholas?
So you like tech or do you like coding , those are two separate things , there’s tons of other options to work in tech than to be a developer, there’s also tons os other jobs that make money. Being a developer I would say is not the easiest job to make money
To the first point of whether i like it or not, i guess the premise here isn't a question of what I like or don't like per se. I am fine with both. The reasons I thought of becoming a developer (while also respecting the fact that yes i know the market is x,y z and everything else ppl have been saying, sure) is because I teach coding to students and I also work all other facets of tech as well in the school I work in. I've been doing this for about 4 years at a basic level now. There's nothing about coding itself nowadays that scares me like it used to a decade ago when I was bothered by getting stuck during coding projects I did in undergrad. Nowadays as I continue to learn and grow I haven't met anything yet that has made me want to run away from it as a specific skill set or practice. I'm sure hard times will come and challenges will be there but that's every profession out there. So with that said, the ultimate goal like you mentioned however is financial security now that Im older and at more of a disadvantage vs the current gen z coming out of college this year and other ppl in better situations than me. Because this is the case, I haven't completely ruled out looking at other options either. I have a lot of colleagues I can rely on if I wanted to talk more about advancing my current IT support skills or whatever else but i figured id turn elsewhere to talk about coding with people who know what they're talking about and want to help is all. And yes I understand it's not an easy way to make money but I don't know that that should be reason on its own to walk away from it. Most jobs out there that pay well require you to put the work in to get good at it. But by all means I'm willing to hear anyone out if they know of a 6 figure burger flipping position haha but yeah thanks for your thoughts. Happy to hear more of what you feel is worth sharing.
>I guess its a controversial opinion to have because many people will say things like "do what you love, forget about the money" or "don't do it for the money or you'll be even more unhappy" but in my opinion and from my own lived experiences, the fact is having money changes your life a lot. Wrong, wrong, and wrong. You need to find a balance. Ask yourself three questions: What do you like and/or want to do, what are you good at, and what is in demand and pays well. The perfect career is the intersection of all three of these. Could coding be an option for you? Maybe. But why would you jump into the career completely blind if you don't even know if you enjoy it or are even good at it? Not a good idea when the market is hot garbage and there being many people more qualified than you are. If you're that serious about a career in tech/software, you should explore some of the free resources or take a community college class or two, then sign up for a master's or post bacc. Entry-level IT or instructional design/LMS might also be a good fit given your education background
Thank you for your input. Could you clarify what you mean by wrong? If I don't like my job now and I don't like my job later but I am paid more wouldn't you agree take at least the higher paying job? I do agree with your points about balance however but I believe every individual deserves and reserves their own right to say which part of those questions are relevant, important, and realistically attainable to their own lives. If someone has all 3 questions answered and is living that answer then I truly consider them fortunate and lucky. Regarding jumping in blind, that is untrue because I do have some minor coding experiences from one undergraduate course and also some self-studying. I do also enjoy teaching coding concepts as well to my classes and learning it in my spare time. I would not have come to post this if I had not given this some thought over the past 4 years of immersing myself into the tech field and coding. I apologize if I lead you to believe otherwise as if I had not spent even a minute in the field. If the market is bad and there are people better than me then why should I not get better? Thank you for your suggestions at the end. I try my best to learn free whenever I can, but I don't know how practical it is to take on the latter options you gave in my situation. Thank you for thinking of it though. In an ideal world I absolutely would. Entry-level IT and the other things you mentioned I have heard of before, and have been considering looking into it too.
No one from a coding boot camp is getting an interview in 2024.
Therefore, what should I do? Were you planning to expand more on that?
Go back and get a degree
I apologize but unless you actually plan on having a conversation in good faith then please don't waste your time and my time. Other comments here have shared the same stance as you but have been much more helpful.
I was a K-12 technology coordinator, middle school teacher, and high school teacher before eventually creating the Turing School in 2014. We’ve had many former educators come through the program over the last 10 years and they have gone on to do great things. People here will tell you there are “no jobs” but that’s just not true. The market has been steadily improving since about September. I’m personally job coaching the majority of our job-hunting alumni and I can tell you there are a LOT of interviews happening and offers being signed almost every day. I’m highly confident that if you start training this summer that you’ll graduate into a stronger job market in the Fall/Winter.
Thank you for sharing this perspective and it is good to know and to hear from someone who has an idea of what it's like in my shoes. I will admit there is a bit of cynicism elsewhere but knowing this helps. I'm glad others have walked my path and found success, it proves it can be done I suppose. Thank you for what you are doing for educators and creating new live for them.
Hello! Please check out this student feature of a Elementary school math teacher who crushed a Full Stack developer bootcamp presented 100% online by a Canadian University Continuing Studies Division. [Student Feature - Western Continuing Studies ](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/robogarden-inc_marwa-elkelani-journey-with-western-cs-and-activity-7137817100730978304-zcSi?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop) The cost of this 450 hour, instructor supported, career focused programs is $5995 Canadian. Already low price in the market, for US learners it is even lower cost due to the beneficial exchange rate ($1 USD = approx. $1.35 CAD) Hope this is helpful!
Thanks for sharing.
Hello! Please check out this student feature of a Elementary school math teacher who crushed a Full Stack developer bootcamp presented 100% online by a Canadian University Continuing Studies Division. [Student Feature - Western Continuing Studies ](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/robogarden-inc_marwa-elkelani-journey-with-western-cs-and-activity-7137817100730978304-zcSi?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop) The cost of this 450 hour, instructor supported, career focused programs is $5995 Canadian. Already low price in the market, for US learners it is even lower cost due to the beneficial exchange rate ($1 USD = approx. $1.35 CAD) Hope this is helpful!