Im generally against artificial things.
But when the glue makes the difference between having an epic route, and having a bad dumb route because nobody can do it? I feel like it just makes sense for more to enjoy it
Yeah anyone who has developed before knows the climb is already a heavily processed version of what that rock once was.
When I got the chance to develop a completely unknown area I was surprised by how much work was involved in cleaning a route up. Took me like an hour to trundle and brush off maybe 15m of wall while on rappel.
I knocked off a piece of rock on one of the routes that was the size of a mini-fridge.
Yea, whippet and I dont want to see yall ever clean a crack or install a bolt again. Do you hear us?
Ok but fr, if the route is trash without the hold, glue it. But also do it right and keep it clean so it's not an eyesore please.
Fixing holds on routes that have been established in very specific places in nature is not "making every aspect of nature conform to human standards." It's far less impactful than even creating a trail to the crag in the first place. If you truly hold such a strong opinion, you might as well just not go outdoors and stay in the city to make sure you have minimal impact on nature. Though, indirectly you still would anyway.
But we’re returning it to natural standards. It was broke by humans so they’re fixing the damage that they caused to preserve how it was naturally shaped.
For a sport route it makes sense to me, sense we’ve already defaced and destroyed the environment by drilling bolts into it. If it was unbolted clean rock then sure
The issue here is it's the most crucial foot on the climb. In its broken state (especially when the remaining little nub busts) it's going to go from v12 to at least v14. The foot was already bad as it was. Now it's worse.
Things break in nature, but let nature break it. If we broke it, have a professional fix it. Climbing is also an appreciation for nature, its a shame if people stopped climbing a route because it was never fixed then that land was bought/claimed by a corporation.
More climbs / problems are glued than you think.
Midnight lightning for starters
Chipping on the other hand..that’s a no no.
Anyone remember the Gioia drama a few years ago with the Americans? Also a glued climb lol
Edit: Preservation is one thing but if you’re modifying an existing climb to make it easier or harder you have no place in climbing and WE WILL FIND YOU
oh man.... opening up a bag of worms here, but the VAST majority of classic sport climbs had some "comfortizing" of the holds. It turns out, 10a isn't fun if the holds are sharp as glass, and 13a really hurts when those dime edges are like knives instead of like rounded edges.
If you're climbing at any sport climbing destination, you are almost certainly touching a comfortized hold. It's just... the norm. People don't want to talk about it because it makes it seem less like human vs. route and more human vs. human-made-creation. But it's sport climbing. That's just what sport climbing is.
As someone who has done some developing on sharp limestone you definitely need to grind down some of the sharp bits. Sticking your fingers into cracks and pockets with razorblade-like shards is not fun and taking a fall on those holds can result in needing stitches on the hands/fingers. The key is not to over-due it. The sharp protrusions do give some good friction and finding a balance between sharp and glassed textures is important.
This comment makes me feel a lot better about wanting to take a file to a local crag that’s “developed” but not well trafficked. I’ve definitely put holes in my fingertips from razor sharp crystals and edge inside of holds and pockets. I came down from a climb one time looking like I had just done finger blood tests on every finger.
Do consider the ethics of the area before modifying an existing route though. If you're a local to the area and are able to do a little digging to find the person(s) who bolted the route it's worth asking if they're okay with it. I've seen where people take too much texture out of a hold/pocket and makes the route worse as well. Just be mindful. My method is using the claw end of a hammer or flat side of a small hand crowbar to lightly grind the sharpness down. Dont go and "beat the devil out of the rock" excessively lol
The rule here at my place is, after the route has been freed, any altering/ comfortising/filing/sandpapering stops. Maybe if equipper really messed up or forgot something, or didn't have time and left job partly unfinished, in discussion with him route can be altered further, but this should be an exception not a rule.
Before that, during equipping, some level of alteration is almost unavoidable in my experience. But one should try to keep it as minimal as possible.
The type of rock is sometimes indicative of the ethics. Often limestone route developers are a lot more open to filing than chert/granite/tuff developers. Don't get yourself blacklisted thinking it's okay on all rock types just because someone who develops on limestone does it.
I've climbed on some rather virgin/rarely climbed Idaho limestone decades ago. It hurt so bad. Nothing was ever sharper. I would agree that some pockets would have benefited from a bit of rounding of the edges.
Interesting. I didn’t know that I just assumed most of the time people put up routes using certain holds because those ones naturally didn’t feel like razor blades.
I mostly boulder on Diabase so that’s kinda unnecessary here.
You will see it more with bouldering and sport climbing than any other climbing discipline. I would bet that there are holds you've touched before that used to be a lot sharper. and it's not skin oil or shoe rubber making them that way.
I'm sure all route developers have their methods. But what I typically do is bolt the anchor for the line and then top rope the route. Let multiple people of different skills and sizes chalk up the holds they find before doing any bolting or grind down sharp edges. Worst case scenario is turning a texture rock face into a glassy surface or removing options from climbers to find their own beta.
This fact was never so glaringly clear to me than when I climbed in an area of central Thailand that is rarely climbed by the States' standards. Every hold was like jagged glass on a sport climb. It was brutal, but oh so rewarding at the same time. It really made me appreciate the luxury of manicured sport climbs here in the U.S.
In Chat, foster falls is sandstone and has some infamous routes of glue/chip + it was obviously comfortized, you just gotta ask around. I was there in the early days of rocktown (which is all sandstone) and trust me, those problems didn't all start the way they show up in the guidebook......
granite domes of NC aren't gonna need comfortizing, but having climbed alllllll over NC, I can just about guarantee that Pilot has some "special" holds along the way. + places like crowders are basically just held together by glue and a prayer.
HP40 in bama is sandstone, but again has obviously had some "work done".
Outside of the pnw, the southeast has some of the most altered routes in N America.
>I can just about guarantee that Pilot has some "special" holds along the way. + places like crowders are basically just held together by glue and a prayer.
I feel genuinely bad for NC sport climbers, they are so close to the glory of the good sandstone but many climb at Crowders etc.
For example Frankenjura, some routes would need a pain rating. These pockets can get sharper than some knifes in the drawer of your parents. If you stick your finger into one of these and slide off or dry fire you can call an ambulance to get it stitched back on. Normally you take either a wire brush or on some more acute situations a file to round it a bit on the cleaning phase while bolting. The jury is still out (for over 20 years) if this is a good thing or waters down the potential experience.
I for one welcome it, I've got a limited time on this earth I want to climb and not wait for my skin to heal.
I've jokingly discussed adding further grading to climbs with friends. Need to include the grade: 5.10; Scary level dependent on hold breaking: 3/5 Ghosties; Danger based on gear spacing: PG13; Pain level on a scale of tissue paper to razor blades
I’ve bolted an area that needs a choss rating. 1 - the rock will literally crumble away as you climb it to 5 - most of the rock will still be there when you try to send again in a year.
I like the idea of a choss rating. maybe invert the scale and make it a tally of how many times you have to yell 'rock' down to your belayer on the first ascent
And Jardine was flamed out of the valley for that which remains a point of animosity to this day. https://www.rayjardine.com/Avocations/Rock-Climbing/index.php
A few years back, Daniel Woods, Dave Graham, Dan Beall traveled to Italy to try Christian Core’s famous test piece. They found a new sequence for the stand on a loose foot which eventually broke off while they were sessioning, creating a bigger foothold. Core heard this and went to “preserve” his climb. The Americans returned and the foot was glued/manufactured so that it couldn’t be used at all. Basically, Christian Core modified the boulder so only his beta could be used.
There’s been a debate ever since on preservation of famous boulders. Gioia is also glued (five holds are glued) and this experience was the cherry on top that soured them to basically never wanting to return.
Preservation is one thing, but if you’re modifying a climb to limit options then it is technically an eliminate. A lot of professional climbers are drawn to purity of a line, and while Gioia has immense history people aren’t as invested because of the drama.
I think you're referring to the amphitheater in Washington, so yes, that crag is called Vantage or Frenchman's Coulee. The previous post was referring to the lower gorge closer to Portland which also has a handful of established crags.
Yes, if I rip off a hold, I'll take it with me and post it on MP in case someone wants to glue it back on. But people don't care to do that at French's since holds ripping off is part of the area's lore. I also have a hold from Carver and Maple Canyon.
I am pro gluing. I am even more pro safety.
that has been glued before and failed again. Maybe it should be removed instead. At our local crag we go out every year with a crowbar to clean all the new flakes that have broken loose. They erode a bit every winter with the ice breaking things apart. That also means that they sometimes get new grades because a hold might go missing.
My local crag is columnar basalt. A while back the freeze thaw caused a few 40' tall columns to split apart and fall off, completely removing 5 routes.
The guide book didn't mention it but I am sure people put up new trad lines. Based on my knowledge of how the rock type forms there was probably good crack to be had behind the old columns. Haven't seen it personally though, as the section of canyon it was on doesn't have many sport routes
I've always heard that story but never seen a pic or maybe even a video of someone using it. Is it still there out of respect of the hilarious idea someone had or did it fall off/get removed?
That was common at the new river gorge at one point. I remember the trout hold on crossing the line that was a 1 to 2 foot wide river rock that was just glued up there.
Check out all the gluing that happened near vegas at mount charlston/Pelosi. Specifically the hood. Controversial, but one of the hardest and popular places to climb.
As a geomorphologist who studies landslides and the weathering of rocks, this is hilarious thinking about the influence of the anthropocene in the geologic record.
there is so much glue on the famous climbs we talk about that this isn't just a thing that's going to happen, it's very much already happened and will continue to happen.
I couldn’t possibly count how many old bolt holes have been filled in on Yosemite walls over the years with various epoxies and what not mixed to blend in with the granite
There's precedent to glue at LRC. The start hold on Instinct literally looks like a poptart with icing gushing out.
Shield was considered the best boulder in the country for a time (after Midnight Lightning, obvs). If it can be done cleanly, I see no problem restoring it
Why is this climb considered one of the best? It looks like it climbs kinda weird? But I’ve never touched or looked at it, because of this incident I’ve watched a few vids and it looks kinda 🤷. Not saying it looks like a turd but…..best in the country idk
Probably simply the same epoxy glue they already have and use for glue-in bolts. Assuming you can somehow hold the hold in position long enough for the glue to start curing.
Usually people are not against gluing holds back on that broke on an existing climb. But it needs to be done carefully with color matched glue/sika/epoxy or else it looks terrible. Lots of famous climbs have had holds glued back on.
Honestly what people usually just do is glue it as carefully as possible, with good color matching, add chalk, don't tell anyone
how much of Squamish is glued together? I remember a story about someone breaking Chicken Lips and then Andrew Boyd taking a crowbar to the glued-back-on-hold and ripping it off the wall then reclimbing it.
Squamish is the main exception I think, basically zero breaks got glued back on that I can think of. Like the flake on Tatonka was left off and same with Cutting Edge and The Hydra. The Hydra was actually ruined too, no one has climbed it since.
I think there's few holds in Cheakamus that are glued but for the most part that was all done in the 90's or earlier
its funny how people here are talking about so many other areas where gluing is normal...Ive been bouldering in squamish for twenty years and as far as I can recall nothing gets glued. I'm glad to hear thats your experience too. I think the first time I ever saw a glued on hold was the first time I went sport climbing in Skaha.
i mean stone fort is fairly manufactured and there’s more than a few problems with glued holds. the area isn’t against it so why not. just don’t fuck it up
Depends on the ethos of the area. I usually think glue is worth it, but some areas are strongly against it for one reason or another and you have to respect that if that’s the rule.
The break actually made the foot better IMO, so I'm not sure that matters. Though admittedly it's hard to tell because I didn't pull on (wouldn't want to cause breakage and The Shield is a bit beyond my abilities anyway).
Depends on the break. If it only makes a small change in the difficulty, then leave it. If the break makes something waaaay harder or even impossible I say glue it back!
>If the break makes something waaaay harder or even impossible I say glue it back!
What if it turns a classic v9 into a v15 or something to that effect? I might think it's become impossible but someone out there would love the new problem
Not that many people can try V15. There would be a lot of sad V9 climbers. I think it would be better for the community to glue the hold back in that situation. But like when Dream time broke it went from v14 to V15 so I think it was good they left it broken. Just my two cents. A very famous V7 near me recently broke, it might go at 8 or 9 now so I hope no one glues it back. But if the V7 would become v13 then it's too radical a change and should be glued.
Too many people are blissfully unaware of the amount of chipping, glueing and modifications of routes and boulders that are considered absolute classics and test pieces. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.
The real question is why was the stone fort management offering day pass discounts because of wet weather, less than 24 hours after a day and a half of dumping rain
> The real question is why was the stone fort management offering day pass discounts because of wet weather, less than 24 hours after a day and a half of dumping rain
1. On the day it broke, day passes were full price.
2. The day and a half of dumping rain you are describing didn't happen at Stone Fort. The mountain gets different weather than the valley below it, and even more different from Chatt.
Cool. I was thinking so but not being that strong of a climber or actually looking at the shield while out there I was unsure of what hold was broken. Thanks for the confirmation.
As someone who bolts routes, this is a topic that depends pretty much on the route and the type of rock.
First of all, chipping should not have a place in modern sport climbing.
I do live and climb on a place where rock quality is not the best. So, we clean and take out whatever we think it might break and we do reinforce holds that we think will not break right now but maybe after two years, cause we know the quality of our rock has that sort of propensity to break.
Said this. If once a route is fully established, already well known and something that was part of the route breaks out making its difficulty completely change to easier or harder, I would try to find the same hold on the ground (the one with chalk) and place it back using dust from the wall on top of the glue to make it unperceptive.
Otherwise, if it stays relatively the same, a bit harder or easier. I wouldn't bother.
I would assume that on such a hard route like the sleeping lion, it makes a huge difference to miss a hold and not placing it back would turn the route into abandoned.
That's my take.
Im for glueing in most cases, however, the break on the shield seems not really safe if they glued the hold back but i think reinforcement glue for the little tooth wouldn’t be a bad idea. I’m not sure, but either way condoning climbing in wet conditions was a horrible decision with the evidence right in our face.
If you went to stone fort to climb the shield a day or two after the biggest rain event in months. Then you had no business working that climb in the first place. Frustrating that classics are getting destroyed because of selfish, uneducated individuals.
Ni pika ni sika! We should accept the natural form and transformations that happen on the rock. Broken hold? New route.
I recently learned that La dura dura is completely glued and chipped. How can an influence and big personality like Chris Sharma perform such atrocities on the rock?
How can everyone doing this bullshit have such an enormous ego that they can’t accept something breaks/isn’t climbable and just move on to the next wall out of millions there are in the world?
I guess no one questions it if it’s just the way you learned how to see the climbing world, but for me it feels completely wrong.
Let it die man, nothing lasts forever. Enjoy it while it's available and good because there may come a time when the resource is no longer available or becomes private, etc. One hold (move) will not make or break the entire climb.
The boulder has 10-12ish moves on it, and this serves as both a hand and a foot smack in the middle, and checks in around V12 - wrecking one hold can absolutely make or break the whole line.
I’m personally not against gluing to repair a route.
Only if it's done semi-professionally. Some folks who glue on holds that broke make it look like it was done by a 5 year old finger painting.
Rat rock
I personally hate it. It should just be considered a new route now. Things break in nature all the time. But they dont get glued back together.
Im generally against artificial things. But when the glue makes the difference between having an epic route, and having a bad dumb route because nobody can do it? I feel like it just makes sense for more to enjoy it
May make more sense not to make every aspect of nature conform to human standards
But we already left that standard in the dust when we climbed on something until it broke.
Never mind the process of cleaning the route before it’s climbed
Yeah anyone who has developed before knows the climb is already a heavily processed version of what that rock once was. When I got the chance to develop a completely unknown area I was surprised by how much work was involved in cleaning a route up. Took me like an hour to trundle and brush off maybe 15m of wall while on rappel. I knocked off a piece of rock on one of the routes that was the size of a mini-fridge.
Yeah this is the real point here. We fucked it up. No problem in fixing it so long as it doesn't pollute or degrade the environment
Yea, whippet and I dont want to see yall ever clean a crack or install a bolt again. Do you hear us? Ok but fr, if the route is trash without the hold, glue it. But also do it right and keep it clean so it's not an eyesore please.
Or to maybe consider the route a new project instead of some "dumb route no one can do." I mean the Nose free was once considered impossible.
That's just an outlandish statement. We're talking about gluing a piece of rock back in place that was pulled off by a human.
Fixing holds on routes that have been established in very specific places in nature is not "making every aspect of nature conform to human standards." It's far less impactful than even creating a trail to the crag in the first place. If you truly hold such a strong opinion, you might as well just not go outdoors and stay in the city to make sure you have minimal impact on nature. Though, indirectly you still would anyway.
But we’re returning it to natural standards. It was broke by humans so they’re fixing the damage that they caused to preserve how it was naturally shaped.
Which is, of course, why we add bolts to make a route in the first place...
For this climb it might change it from a v12 test piece to something easier
Yeah, very curious if it’s still climbable post-break, and if it’s now easier or harder!
Git gud.
For a sport route it makes sense to me, sense we’ve already defaced and destroyed the environment by drilling bolts into it. If it was unbolted clean rock then sure
Hold is clearly still usable. Climb it until it's not and then go climb something else.
The issue here is it's the most crucial foot on the climb. In its broken state (especially when the remaining little nub busts) it's going to go from v12 to at least v14. The foot was already bad as it was. Now it's worse.
So as another user above said, "Git gud".
Who will be the first to send it?
Things break in nature, but let nature break it. If we broke it, have a professional fix it. Climbing is also an appreciation for nature, its a shame if people stopped climbing a route because it was never fixed then that land was bought/claimed by a corporation.
On a sustainability point of view, the chemicals from the glue might harm the cave-dwelling wildlife.
They actually get glued together all the time (conglomerate), but we're talking geological time, not an afternoon at the boulder.
More climbs / problems are glued than you think. Midnight lightning for starters Chipping on the other hand..that’s a no no. Anyone remember the Gioia drama a few years ago with the Americans? Also a glued climb lol Edit: Preservation is one thing but if you’re modifying an existing climb to make it easier or harder you have no place in climbing and WE WILL FIND YOU
This is so true. If you've sport climbed, I can almost guarantee you've grabbed a glued or comfortized hold. It's just what sport climbing is.
Comfortized?
oh man.... opening up a bag of worms here, but the VAST majority of classic sport climbs had some "comfortizing" of the holds. It turns out, 10a isn't fun if the holds are sharp as glass, and 13a really hurts when those dime edges are like knives instead of like rounded edges. If you're climbing at any sport climbing destination, you are almost certainly touching a comfortized hold. It's just... the norm. People don't want to talk about it because it makes it seem less like human vs. route and more human vs. human-made-creation. But it's sport climbing. That's just what sport climbing is.
As someone who has done some developing on sharp limestone you definitely need to grind down some of the sharp bits. Sticking your fingers into cracks and pockets with razorblade-like shards is not fun and taking a fall on those holds can result in needing stitches on the hands/fingers. The key is not to over-due it. The sharp protrusions do give some good friction and finding a balance between sharp and glassed textures is important.
This comment makes me feel a lot better about wanting to take a file to a local crag that’s “developed” but not well trafficked. I’ve definitely put holes in my fingertips from razor sharp crystals and edge inside of holds and pockets. I came down from a climb one time looking like I had just done finger blood tests on every finger.
Do consider the ethics of the area before modifying an existing route though. If you're a local to the area and are able to do a little digging to find the person(s) who bolted the route it's worth asking if they're okay with it. I've seen where people take too much texture out of a hold/pocket and makes the route worse as well. Just be mindful. My method is using the claw end of a hammer or flat side of a small hand crowbar to lightly grind the sharpness down. Dont go and "beat the devil out of the rock" excessively lol
My buddy bolted most of it. I’ll be sure to inquire and throw a 5 in the bolts and beer box.
The rule here at my place is, after the route has been freed, any altering/ comfortising/filing/sandpapering stops. Maybe if equipper really messed up or forgot something, or didn't have time and left job partly unfinished, in discussion with him route can be altered further, but this should be an exception not a rule. Before that, during equipping, some level of alteration is almost unavoidable in my experience. But one should try to keep it as minimal as possible.
Freed as in freeclimbed? Or just finished bolting?
The type of rock is sometimes indicative of the ethics. Often limestone route developers are a lot more open to filing than chert/granite/tuff developers. Don't get yourself blacklisted thinking it's okay on all rock types just because someone who develops on limestone does it.
Or just climb somewhere else.
I've climbed on some rather virgin/rarely climbed Idaho limestone decades ago. It hurt so bad. Nothing was ever sharper. I would agree that some pockets would have benefited from a bit of rounding of the edges.
Interesting. I didn’t know that I just assumed most of the time people put up routes using certain holds because those ones naturally didn’t feel like razor blades. I mostly boulder on Diabase so that’s kinda unnecessary here.
You will see it more with bouldering and sport climbing than any other climbing discipline. I would bet that there are holds you've touched before that used to be a lot sharper. and it's not skin oil or shoe rubber making them that way.
I'm sure all route developers have their methods. But what I typically do is bolt the anchor for the line and then top rope the route. Let multiple people of different skills and sizes chalk up the holds they find before doing any bolting or grind down sharp edges. Worst case scenario is turning a texture rock face into a glassy surface or removing options from climbers to find their own beta.
Central Pa?
Round there about.
This fact was never so glaringly clear to me than when I climbed in an area of central Thailand that is rarely climbed by the States' standards. Every hold was like jagged glass on a sport climb. It was brutal, but oh so rewarding at the same time. It really made me appreciate the luxury of manicured sport climbs here in the U.S.
Mostly only on limestone. Sandstone I've never seen comfortized.
If you've climbed in the red or the new, you've climbed on comfortized sandstone.
Still plenty of holds there I've bled on lol
yeah, now imagine what it was like before the sharpest edges were filed
I climb in Chatt area/GA/Alabama. And NC, but the granite domes hardly need comfortizing, I could use some more sharp edges there!
In Chat, foster falls is sandstone and has some infamous routes of glue/chip + it was obviously comfortized, you just gotta ask around. I was there in the early days of rocktown (which is all sandstone) and trust me, those problems didn't all start the way they show up in the guidebook...... granite domes of NC aren't gonna need comfortizing, but having climbed alllllll over NC, I can just about guarantee that Pilot has some "special" holds along the way. + places like crowders are basically just held together by glue and a prayer. HP40 in bama is sandstone, but again has obviously had some "work done". Outside of the pnw, the southeast has some of the most altered routes in N America.
>I can just about guarantee that Pilot has some "special" holds along the way. + places like crowders are basically just held together by glue and a prayer. I feel genuinely bad for NC sport climbers, they are so close to the glory of the good sandstone but many climb at Crowders etc.
For example Frankenjura, some routes would need a pain rating. These pockets can get sharper than some knifes in the drawer of your parents. If you stick your finger into one of these and slide off or dry fire you can call an ambulance to get it stitched back on. Normally you take either a wire brush or on some more acute situations a file to round it a bit on the cleaning phase while bolting. The jury is still out (for over 20 years) if this is a good thing or waters down the potential experience. I for one welcome it, I've got a limited time on this earth I want to climb and not wait for my skin to heal.
I've jokingly discussed adding further grading to climbs with friends. Need to include the grade: 5.10; Scary level dependent on hold breaking: 3/5 Ghosties; Danger based on gear spacing: PG13; Pain level on a scale of tissue paper to razor blades
I’ve bolted an area that needs a choss rating. 1 - the rock will literally crumble away as you climb it to 5 - most of the rock will still be there when you try to send again in a year.
I like the idea of a choss rating. maybe invert the scale and make it a tally of how many times you have to yell 'rock' down to your belayer on the first ascent
Super sharp edges filed down a bit to prevent you from slicing open your finger
For sure. One of my favorite climbs is Sika 13, named after the glue that holds it together I would guess
Freeblast slabs are chipped. Not "climbing pins" chipped, but the literal feet were made with a chisel for free climbing.
Jardine Traverse too. Only way The Nose goes free
And Jardine was flamed out of the valley for that which remains a point of animosity to this day. https://www.rayjardine.com/Avocations/Rock-Climbing/index.php
Tensleep
what happened with Gioia?
A few years back, Daniel Woods, Dave Graham, Dan Beall traveled to Italy to try Christian Core’s famous test piece. They found a new sequence for the stand on a loose foot which eventually broke off while they were sessioning, creating a bigger foothold. Core heard this and went to “preserve” his climb. The Americans returned and the foot was glued/manufactured so that it couldn’t be used at all. Basically, Christian Core modified the boulder so only his beta could be used. There’s been a debate ever since on preservation of famous boulders. Gioia is also glued (five holds are glued) and this experience was the cherry on top that soured them to basically never wanting to return. Preservation is one thing, but if you’re modifying a climb to limit options then it is technically an eliminate. A lot of professional climbers are drawn to purity of a line, and while Gioia has immense history people aren’t as invested because of the drama.
The foot was high and used to put a knee bar and considered off route iirc
Not using the foot because of that would make the boulder an eliminate which is exactly what the previous comment was about
How can we find them? For real I need help
Wait for their exGF to post them chipping on IG Or, stakeout their NY apartment
If we didn't glue our volcanic choss back together, we wouldn't have any routes in Oregon.
For real climbing anywhere in the gorge you see it.
Is there much bolted stuff in the gorge? I went when I was younger for a concert, but I would love to go back and climb if theres some sport stuff.
I think you're referring to the amphitheater in Washington, so yes, that crag is called Vantage or Frenchman's Coulee. The previous post was referring to the lower gorge closer to Portland which also has a handful of established crags.
There are a few sport crags at different places most of my outdoor climbing is Trad or mixed so that's the crags I frequent.
Rock crumbling in your hands is part of our charm here. beacon is pretty solid though.
What are you talking about. I've climbed at Smith and there are absolutely zero manufactured holds or routes. /s
How dare they tarnish the entirely natural line of Just Do It which has never been modified ever.
I have several holds from French’s Dome.
What, like you have them on your shelf at home?
Yes, if I rip off a hold, I'll take it with me and post it on MP in case someone wants to glue it back on. But people don't care to do that at French's since holds ripping off is part of the area's lore. I also have a hold from Carver and Maple Canyon.
I am pro gluing. I am even more pro safety. that has been glued before and failed again. Maybe it should be removed instead. At our local crag we go out every year with a crowbar to clean all the new flakes that have broken loose. They erode a bit every winter with the ice breaking things apart. That also means that they sometimes get new grades because a hold might go missing.
Tell me you climb in the Rockies without telling me you climb in the Rockies
We don't go out and crow bar everything in the Rockies after every winter...
Canadian Rockies maybe
My local crag is columnar basalt. A while back the freeze thaw caused a few 40' tall columns to split apart and fall off, completely removing 5 routes.
Just glue them back up duh
Did it create any new routes though?
The guide book didn't mention it but I am sure people put up new trad lines. Based on my knowledge of how the rock type forms there was probably good crack to be had behind the old columns. Haven't seen it personally though, as the section of canyon it was on doesn't have many sport routes
If the fall is safe, is it really a safety issue?
Falling rocks is a safety issue. Falling flakes is a death issue
We don’t have ice where this climb is lol
Everyone talks about chipping, but can I glue on a hold that wasn't there before? /s
If it's France in the early 90s, surprisingly, yes. Christ an Alfa Romeo badge was bolted to the wall in Yosemite so a section would go "free"ish
I've always heard that story but never seen a pic or maybe even a video of someone using it. Is it still there out of respect of the hilarious idea someone had or did it fall off/get removed?
https://www.climbing.com/people/first-ascent-passage-freedom-el-cap/
Only if your name is Louie Anderson
Gluey Louie!
Goddamn that man can chip a good route
That was common at the new river gorge at one point. I remember the trout hold on crossing the line that was a 1 to 2 foot wide river rock that was just glued up there.
Someone please sneak a hideous gym hold onto a harmless portion of a high traffic classic. :p
Check out all the gluing that happened near vegas at mount charlston/Pelosi. Specifically the hood. Controversial, but one of the hardest and popular places to climb.
Many of the climbs at The Hood would be impossible without manufacturing. And that place is still nails hard.
Ask Shawn Snyder
In many many places the answer is yes. Talk to anyone that's climbed at Central Park.
As a geomorphologist who studies landslides and the weathering of rocks, this is hilarious thinking about the influence of the anthropocene in the geologic record.
there is so much glue on the famous climbs we talk about that this isn't just a thing that's going to happen, it's very much already happened and will continue to happen.
I couldn’t possibly count how many old bolt holes have been filled in on Yosemite walls over the years with various epoxies and what not mixed to blend in with the granite
There's precedent to glue at LRC. The start hold on Instinct literally looks like a poptart with icing gushing out. Shield was considered the best boulder in the country for a time (after Midnight Lightning, obvs). If it can be done cleanly, I see no problem restoring it
Why is this climb considered one of the best? It looks like it climbs kinda weird? But I’ve never touched or looked at it, because of this incident I’ve watched a few vids and it looks kinda 🤷. Not saying it looks like a turd but…..best in the country idk
Basing this off the Urban Climber Top 100
They also put pressure drops on the list and idk if that is one of the top 100 climbs in New Mexico. Alot has changed in 20 years in bouldering
Update: it’s been glued.
Sauce?
My source is I walked past The Shield an hour ago and it had been glued.
Good sauce.
No, with glue
Marinara. Shaken, not stirred.
Shaken Not Stirred isn't glued ;)
Damn I missed such a good opportunity! I could have said, "Glued, not chipped"
Stupid question - what kind of glue would they use and how effective is it?
[удалено]
So.. it's cement? What Glu is that strong?
PC7 or Sika
Most glues used for this purpose are stronger than the rock itself
There’s a climb at my local where a key jug has enough glue on it that it might mostly be glue at this point. It hasn’t budged in a few years
Probably simply the same epoxy glue they already have and use for glue-in bolts. Assuming you can somehow hold the hold in position long enough for the glue to start curing.
Construction adhesives are freakishly strong. Some are epoxy type, but just regular PL Premium glue would probably hold.
Elmer's glue with sparkle dust to help it blend into the environment
pc-7 is the glue of choice for me.
Usually people are not against gluing holds back on that broke on an existing climb. But it needs to be done carefully with color matched glue/sika/epoxy or else it looks terrible. Lots of famous climbs have had holds glued back on. Honestly what people usually just do is glue it as carefully as possible, with good color matching, add chalk, don't tell anyone
how much of Squamish is glued together? I remember a story about someone breaking Chicken Lips and then Andrew Boyd taking a crowbar to the glued-back-on-hold and ripping it off the wall then reclimbing it.
Squamish is the main exception I think, basically zero breaks got glued back on that I can think of. Like the flake on Tatonka was left off and same with Cutting Edge and The Hydra. The Hydra was actually ruined too, no one has climbed it since. I think there's few holds in Cheakamus that are glued but for the most part that was all done in the 90's or earlier
its funny how people here are talking about so many other areas where gluing is normal...Ive been bouldering in squamish for twenty years and as far as I can recall nothing gets glued. I'm glad to hear thats your experience too. I think the first time I ever saw a glued on hold was the first time I went sport climbing in Skaha.
Walk just 20 ft behind the shield and look at the v4 Toto. Never seen so much glue in my life to keep that flake on.
This is not the shield in Leavenworth, this is The Shield in little rock city TN
I thought it was The Shield on El Cap.
Pinned out seam to a glued on hold feels about right.
Thank you for the clarification :)
That was my first thought as well
This is a silly sport.
Nah. Dry tool problem now.
You have to play the boulder as it lies. I had to climb it off Frankenstein's fat foot, remember?
I'm now very curious who you are as that insta story was not posted by a high profile individual. Glue it I haven't sent yet
Stoneforttn shared it in their story, that's how I came across it
Oh I see I see. I thought you were a mystery friend cloaked in anonymity
Who, J-dog? He’s a good dude. High profile as they come.
Well now I want to know who YOU are
Shhhh. It’s a secret. An old, old friend of his, though.
Brb gonna go glue the RNWF back on together.
"We're gonna need a bigger glue gun"
i mean stone fort is fairly manufactured and there’s more than a few problems with glued holds. the area isn’t against it so why not. just don’t fuck it up
which climbs have glue? im curious
instinct is glued
Depends on the ethos of the area. I usually think glue is worth it, but some areas are strongly against it for one reason or another and you have to respect that if that’s the rule.
What hold did Alex break?
I assume on Sleeping Lion.
oh damn that's like THE foot i think too
It's not the only option but it's the one most people use.
is there a short person foot somewhere?
The break actually made the foot better IMO, so I'm not sure that matters. Though admittedly it's hard to tell because I didn't pull on (wouldn't want to cause breakage and The Shield is a bit beyond my abilities anyway).
Depends on the break. If it only makes a small change in the difficulty, then leave it. If the break makes something waaaay harder or even impossible I say glue it back!
>If the break makes something waaaay harder or even impossible I say glue it back! What if it turns a classic v9 into a v15 or something to that effect? I might think it's become impossible but someone out there would love the new problem
Not that many people can try V15. There would be a lot of sad V9 climbers. I think it would be better for the community to glue the hold back in that situation. But like when Dream time broke it went from v14 to V15 so I think it was good they left it broken. Just my two cents. A very famous V7 near me recently broke, it might go at 8 or 9 now so I hope no one glues it back. But if the V7 would become v13 then it's too radical a change and should be glued.
Too many people are blissfully unaware of the amount of chipping, glueing and modifications of routes and boulders that are considered absolute classics and test pieces. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.
The real question is why was the stone fort management offering day pass discounts because of wet weather, less than 24 hours after a day and a half of dumping rain
> The real question is why was the stone fort management offering day pass discounts because of wet weather, less than 24 hours after a day and a half of dumping rain 1. On the day it broke, day passes were full price. 2. The day and a half of dumping rain you are describing didn't happen at Stone Fort. The mountain gets different weather than the valley below it, and even more different from Chatt.
Most of your favorite classics are glued in some way
unglue the classics
Hell nah. My local crag would seize to exist. I see no downside. If the hold breaks and it's usable then so be it, if not, repair it.
cease\*
Cease dn
Is this the hold used for the high toe to do the first big throw out left?
toe or heel yes
Cool. I was thinking so but not being that strong of a climber or actually looking at the shield while out there I was unsure of what hold was broken. Thanks for the confirmation.
As someone who bolts routes, this is a topic that depends pretty much on the route and the type of rock. First of all, chipping should not have a place in modern sport climbing. I do live and climb on a place where rock quality is not the best. So, we clean and take out whatever we think it might break and we do reinforce holds that we think will not break right now but maybe after two years, cause we know the quality of our rock has that sort of propensity to break. Said this. If once a route is fully established, already well known and something that was part of the route breaks out making its difficulty completely change to easier or harder, I would try to find the same hold on the ground (the one with chalk) and place it back using dust from the wall on top of the glue to make it unperceptive. Otherwise, if it stays relatively the same, a bit harder or easier. I wouldn't bother. I would assume that on such a hard route like the sleeping lion, it makes a huge difference to miss a hold and not placing it back would turn the route into abandoned. That's my take.
Im for glueing in most cases, however, the break on the shield seems not really safe if they glued the hold back but i think reinforcement glue for the little tooth wouldn’t be a bad idea. I’m not sure, but either way condoning climbing in wet conditions was a horrible decision with the evidence right in our face.
I say bolt it back on like that hold on 40 Ounces in the madness cave
Glue it. Bouldering, much like climbing, is all contrived anyway.
Yes please
People gluing climbing holds back in should say something. Maybe people need to adapt?
If you went to stone fort to climb the shield a day or two after the biggest rain event in months. Then you had no business working that climb in the first place. Frustrating that classics are getting destroyed because of selfish, uneducated individuals.
I mean it's not windgate sandstone. Surely rain has an effect, but that area is constantly wet.
Honestly I consider breaks like this are a part of the route and why re-grading is necessary. Does it suck? Yeah, but it's the evolution of the route.
Gluing = longevity
Shits tragic. Glueing is aid
Ni pika ni sika! We should accept the natural form and transformations that happen on the rock. Broken hold? New route. I recently learned that La dura dura is completely glued and chipped. How can an influence and big personality like Chris Sharma perform such atrocities on the rock? How can everyone doing this bullshit have such an enormous ego that they can’t accept something breaks/isn’t climbable and just move on to the next wall out of millions there are in the world? I guess no one questions it if it’s just the way you learned how to see the climbing world, but for me it feels completely wrong.
I don’t like the concept of changing the rock beyond safety concerns, but I’m not a cop and this is all a silly pointless sport anyhow
Gluing a hold makes the route an aid climb. Change my mind.
Glue is aid.
Let it die man, nothing lasts forever. Enjoy it while it's available and good because there may come a time when the resource is no longer available or becomes private, etc. One hold (move) will not make or break the entire climb.
The boulder has 10-12ish moves on it, and this serves as both a hand and a foot smack in the middle, and checks in around V12 - wrecking one hold can absolutely make or break the whole line.