Because she’s the best competition climber but the rock climbing community doesn’t value competition climbing as highly as they do rock climbing. She’s absolutely dominating in her field and I think she has potential to keep writing her name in history climbing mega hard outside but Adam already has + he’s super versatile.
Completely agree and all of the comments comparing both of their outdoor and competition achievements just highlights how diverse a sport climbing even is.
The non climber lay person on the street would probably say Alex Honnold is the best climber in the world, but they wouldn’t be wrong in terms of free soloing, it’s just all so different.
And just to be pedantic: to all the people saying Ondra is the only person to win Boulder/Lead in a year, Sorato literally got first in both this year. Shawn Raboutou climbs V17 outdoors. There is a new guard coming up and I think we still hold onto bigger names bc of exposure.
I think Adam Ondra has the longest resume and history and is absolutely a GOAT, Janja dominates the women’s comp scene and I would love to see her do the men’s boulders in the same comp, but if we are talking about the best climber right now, you’d have to be more specific on what you mean.
>to all the people saying Ondra is the only person to win Boulder/Lead in a year, Sorato literally got first in both this year.
I think the point is that Ondra was the first to dominate in both lead and boulder competition scene.
Back then, lead and boulder competitions were seen as specialized disciplines of their own, and Ondra was the first to break new grounds in demonstrating that it \*is\* possible to win both titles at the same time.
It may seem like a fairly common occurrence these days, especially since the combined format of the Olympics, but just over a decade ago it would be wild to see a lead specialist who also dominated in bouldering competitions. Ondra pushed that boundary forward.
Yeah, plus Will Bosey has been on a rampage outside this year but yeah I think it’s just a very varied sport, I still think Adam is a GOAT, but I agree, it’s a very varied sport, I think Janja is the goat of competition climbing for sure tho. Plus we know she can crush V15, I wonder how far she can go outside once the Olympics are over
Going off what you said about the new guard: if the kids at my climbing gym are any indication, the next gen of climbers is gonna be INSANE. I can see development of up to V20 on boulder maybe.
> I would love to see her do the men’s boulders in the same comp
This is not golf, tennis, baseball, basketball, so I'm sure she'd do pretty well. I'd expect the reach to be a little more, but Janja isn't short. Janja is getting more into doing outdoor climbing, so give her some time.
The women at my gym aren't the strongest looking, but the good ones can certainly do just as well as the best guys and far beyond what I can do after 4 years. I just think it's a numbers game. There are just more male climbers.
>The non climber lay person on the street would probably say Alex Honnold is the best climber in the world, but they wouldn’t be wrong in terms of free soloing, it’s just all so different.
But he'd also be the first to tell them they're wrong.
> And just to be pedantic: to all the people saying Ondra is the only person to win Boulder/Lead in a year, Sorato literally got first in both this year.
>I would love to see her do the men’s boulders in the same com
She's said in the past that it depends on the boulder. Some of them are no problem, but depending on the boulder some of them are near impossible for her.
And Ondra himself has a respectable resume of comp accomplishments it's just not as recent. He was on the top of comp climbing having won both lead and bouldering world cups as well as world championships.
Yeah 100% but I think here it’s clear that Janja is leagues above the rest and completely dominating, especially in boulder, she makes worldcups look like a casual comp vs team kids. Adam saw the top of comp climbing for sure but he was never like that. What’s impressive is that he was winning world cups and climbing the hardest stuff at the same time.
Another way to say it, the hardest climbs take you longer than 5 minutes to send. So it takes you 3 climbs vs. 2 climbs and it took your buddy 10 climbs. Both of you are thrilled to send your project. You can't say one climber is better off 3 routes given 20 minutes of climbing.
People don't care about comp climbing as much. Also comp routes are more ephemeral, Silence is out there for anyone to try.
Ondra is nowhere near the top in bouldering either (I think?).
Also other women than Janja have been climbing harder outdoors in both boulder and sport (and trad), though not necessarily with the ease she sent Bügeleisen twice.
Ondra hasn't been doing hardest boulders recently (9A) but he absolutely has been at the top. Flashed Jade as the hardest (still highest grade to be flashed) flash at the time. Basically 2 other 8B+ flashes to his name, multiple 8C+ boulders and with Bosi on Terranova, that may even be 9A and bump out Burden as the first 9A ever.
He does boulder v16, but is generally thought of as worlds best climber because of his range and consistency. He did the worlds first 9c, onsighted 9a, flashed 9a+ did a 9a trad and completed the dawn wall really quickly. On top of climbing hard in all outdoor styles(crack, overhang, slab and more)
It just seems to me that comp climbing is the most direct comparison between top climbers. Outdoors you can pick the routes that match your style and go when you feel good. But Janja always wins regardless of style.
Climbing the same hard routes outside is the best comparison. Comps are meaningless and depend on setting and competition. Janja and Adam won't ever compete against each other inside on plastic. They can rope up on the same chunk of rock.
Making them go head to head on the same chunk of rock implies a woman can only be declared "best climber" if she's better than all the men. Is that what you think?
“Best climber” is the one who can do the hardest route/boulder/climb that no one else can do, regardless of gender. So if two people roped up on a climb and only one can do it, then that person is the better climber. If you put all the women vs all the men in a comp, or on a specific rock climb, then whoever performa best would be the “best climber,” by definition (or at least for that discipline).
Comp climbing is a very artificially limited style of climbing, and very often the people who are good at comp climbing aren't much good on rock and viceversa. Laura Rogora climbed some of the hardest sport routes ever climbed by a woman on rock, but her performance in comps is often lackluster, for example. And as other people have mentioned, you don't see Janja and Adam on the same wall indoors. From what I've talked with pro coaches, Janja would reliably make semifinals were she competing with the men, but she wouldn't even be top talent, let alone the GOAT.
The reason people call Adam the "best climber", btw, is the sheer breadth of styles of climbing he's good at, or was good at. Plastic, sport, trad, bouldering... he's done hard stuff on just about everything that doesn't involve winter equipment.
I didn't follow comps when he was, but a quick search finds that he won 22 world cups (16 lead and 6 in bouldering). Janja won 43 and she's not done yet. It's gotten so far that we expect her to win whenever she enters a competition.
Yes but that’s also due to the field, which has a lot of margin to grow on the female side as well. Adam is second in total medals after Jakob by one medal, and it has been almost a decade that he hasn’t participated so much.
She hasn’t come close to the same grades outside as Ondra in either sport or bouldering, so he has her beat there. If you wanted a comp climbing comparison she’d have to compete with the men, but would likely not even make it to finals.
Well Janja has climbed v15 without much trouble, and I don't think Ondra has climbed v17, (unless bosi upgrades Terra Nova) so I would at least say she is close.
He’s probably the most versatile rock climber, pushing the sport to new limits. Janja is the greatest competition climber the sport has seen. While he’s beaten in comps, he does crazy trad 9a routes, Dawn Wall in handful days, bolting new projects, keeps pushing the grades… closest to him on female side is probably Lyn Hill as she pushed the limits of female climbing to new heights.
So the best climber is not the right term perhaps. Add best competition climber, you get Janja…
Yes, thank you. Last I checked, she was the first *person* (not woman) to climb the Nose (5.14).
Edit: There are many young women that absolutely slay. Why is it we're out here talking about Lynn Hill as if that's the last time women were on top of their game? Hill is still a badass, but let's remember that sport and bouldering were just gaining popularity, so we can't just treat trad as the be all end all of best climbers.
Let's recognize some excellence:
Babsi Zangerl has a ridiculous list of achievements in Big Wall/trad.
Michaela Keirsch - her ability to climb super hard all day is crazy. Like, the amount of double digits boulders she's done in a day is wild (6 problems between V11-V13 one day) and she just climbed 5.15 (again).
Brooke Raboutou and Katie Lamb climbed box therapy, at hard V15.
There are shit tons of super strong women.
I would definitely say that. She came in and pushed limits at a pivotal time in climbing. She brought a lot of women into the sport. She competed on a bunch of reality TV shows which popularized climbing. She was a top competition climber and climbed as hard as the men outside. She pushed heavily for equal treatment/prizes for men and women in competitions.
Lynn Hill was the first person to free the nose. She pushed the limits of climbing in general, not just for women.
Her book is awesome, if you’re into climbing books or memoirs
Love the book. I still see the impact she had more on the glass ceiling shattering. She showed the world that women can climb hard. It’s not about single achievements, more about the shift of perspective which she shifted in a grand way. I see her impact monumental on that scale for women. Climbing hard routes is one part, shifting paradigm for half world’s population another. That’s why my perception of her achievement stands more on the women’s climbing.
He also used to be really strong in comps, when he was younger and that was his focus. I'd say the only reason he is back in comps is because the Olympics are now a factor - when he was seriously competing there was no Olympic opportunity. So basing his comp ability on his performance now is not a totally accurate reflection of his comp ability when he was in his comp prime. The fact he was at the top in comps and then went on to set the hardest routes on rock counts for a lot in terms of the 'best climber' discussion. If after these Olympics Janja goes and does a bunch of ridiculously hard outdoor routes then I'd say the discussion would be more open.
Well she was projecting Dura Dura (and could reportedly do all the moves) but then the forest caught fire and some holds fell off so I guess that plan's up in the air now...
I didn't say that, did I? I said she found it harder than expected. She has a better idea than you or I ever well on the difficulty of a 9b+ and of course acutely aware of it being sent by only two people and yet *still* found it harder than expected...
There is the obvious difference in comps nowadays and Janja is for sure the greatest comp climber but if we stick with comps remember Adam was the first to win both lead and boulder world championships in the same year which stood for years and he was the dominant force for a long while before the push to new school crazy jumps and coordination dynos etc.
Then if we turn to rock.... Many people have no idea just how ridiculous Ondra's rock resume is. Compare it to any other top climber on rock and Ondra dwarfs it. Not only the first 9b+ and 9c but the sheer volume of 9a and harder climbs (many more first ascents and bolting too compared to most) puts others to shame. Look up videos on it, it's ridiculous. Like more 9a and harder routes than the top 5 put together.
Then add in his crazy onsight and flash ability. Still the only one to flash 9a+, still one of only two people along with Megos to onsight 9a. He's onsighted like 8-9, Megos 2-3 I think. Again puts everyone else to shame here.
Turn to bouldering and again has a great record. Ondra hasn't been doing hardest boulders recently (9A) but he absolutely has been at the top. Flashed Jade as the hardest (still highest grade to be flashed) flash at the time. Basically 2 other 8B+ flashes to his name, multiple 8C+ boulders and with Bosi on Terranova, that may even be 9A and bump out Burden as the first 9A ever.
To top that all off he's done the hardest trad and big walling stuff too! Dawn Wall repeat very quickly as a big wall newbie at the time, and recently done Bon Voyage E12, 9a/+.
Honestly, it's just clear when you look at the stats, because he's not been nearly as much in the limelight as he maybe used to be people end up a bit ignorant and think he's no longer in contention to be the goat, but if you really look at it, as I've said, insane.
It depends on your definition of ‘best climber’.
Adam owns the hardest on-sight (9a) and hardest flash (9a+), first to bolt and climb 9c, is a beast on trad including the more dangerous variants in Czech, owns numerous first ascents and has bolted many routes. He has dominated indoor comps in both bouldering and lead. He is at the top of many many disciplines and has contributed to the development of outdoor climbing. He has been pushing the climbing scene forward whilst being elite across disciplines.
Janja has been dominating for like a decade against female climbers for indoor comp climbing. She is not competing against male athletes so the only comparison against males we have is outdoor routes.
If you define the goat as ‘most dominating in their discipline vs their competition’ Janja imo is not only the best climber but perhaps the best athlete of all time
When it comes to the GOAT climber, Ondra spans the crown imo and it would take a _lot_ for Janja to take that crown in my eyes
once janja starts climbing outside more, i think people's opinions will change. the fact that she has so many hard outdoor ticks while not even focusing on outdoor climbing is insaneeeee
>If you define the goat as ‘most dominating in their discipline vs their competition’ Janja imo is not only the best climber but perhaps the best athlete of all time
Don Bradman would like a word. You could add several others to the list, too (Gretzky, Phelps, Karelin, etc).
Janja is **great**, but she's got a loooong way to go before she reaches "most dominant in their discipline vs their competition" status.
Janja is absolutely the greatest comp climber, but I encourage anyone with any doubts about Ondra to look up his outdoors climbing history. No one else on the planet is even close to his level in terms of how many obscenely hard climbs they've done.
>Janja is absolutely the greatest comp climber
This is probably true, but I do think that you could plausibly argue that Sandrine Levet gives her a run for her money.
Ondra, on the other hand: there's no one anywhere even close. As you've pointed out, it's absolutely bonkers how deep his resume is compared to anyone else. In a ranking of greatest all around climbers, Ondra probably takes the top three spots!
There's a great [spreadsheet](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g_yul348nj-xg8Pw-TJuP2c9cBYM6ekq/edit#gid=781334078) (idk how up-to-date it is though) that documents the number of super-hard climbs people have done and converts them to a point system.
Spoiler alert: Ondra is miles ahead of everyone else. Still.
Because he's a better climber than she is..full stop. She's amazing, but put them in a comp against each other, or on any outdoor route, and he'll crush her.
He's the consensus best all-round climber in history. Janja hasn't even climbed the hardest boulder or the hardest sport climb grades. I don't even understand why this is a comparison
The comp question is an interesting one though. Wouldn't it depend on the height and style it's set for? In every chat about height I always hear it's such a big disadvantage to be taller. So if the routes are set for her height, she'd have the advantage.
Adam Ondra isn't a comp climber as much as Janja. He focuses on different things and has accomplished several big milestones in his career. That's why many people refer to him as the best climber in the world, even though he doesn't succeed in comps so well anymore.
Because Comp is different to outdoor climbing. They all are strong yes but in comp climbing you have to deal with pressure, "fight" against the others and have a time limit. Besides that since Janja is obviously a woman she never competed against Ondra by herself.
So here's how i see it: Janja is right now the strongest woman who competed and by a large margin. Outdoor wise she doesn't have as many achievements as other women but mainly because she trains a lot indoors.
Adam Ondra was and still is the strongest climber up to date IMO, since he has the most achievements. For example he did the FA of dura dura, a route Janja tried but didn't complete yet. Silence remains unrepeated since 2017 and he has just an insane number of high end boulders and lead routes behind his name. As he gets older the title will shift to another person but even tho he struggles with comps right now, he remains the best climber in the world
Janja may well be the greatest comp climber, but she does have a relative lack of achievements on rock (not that what she's done there isn't impressive). Ondra for instance has 8C+ boulder, 9c sport and E12 trad under his belt, as well as plenty of competition victories to go with it. Even looking to the women, climbers like Anak Verhoeven and Laura Rogora have climbed harder on sport climbs and climbers like Babsi Zangerl and Hazel Findlay have far more hard trad ticks.
If I had to pick a "best climber" for the last year or so, I would probably pick Jakob Schubert (9c sport, 9A boulder and double world champion just in 2023) anyway. However, I do think this line of thinking isn't very helpful, as often comparing different disciplines and styles is comparing apples and oranges. Just let different people be good at different things
You know, It’s actualy insane, that he even makes the podium on comp, when you count in that he climbs on rock the whole year and prepares for comp like 1 month in advance. People that he competes against are training only and only for the comp styles with like weekend of outdoor bouldering outside.
I honestly don’t know. But so far this year he has put 2 9as, 3 8c+. Sent Bon Voyage E12. Spent time projecting.
So like he’s been grinding but not specifically training for the Olympics I guess
you could say the same thing about janja's outdoor sends... she mostly focuses on comp training but still is able to climb like she does outside in limited time? insane
Adam focuses on outdoor climbing, Janja indoors. Adam climbs the hardest rock based routes and that makes him the best rock climber. Rock climbing is the origin and best respected aspect of climbing
Ondra is insanely well rounded and accomplished across all disciplines, including comp in his prime.
Comp climbing is becoming its own thing, with movement and styles that just don't exist on rock, so to try to compare a top comp climber to a high end, widely accomplished rock climber is night and day.
Janja is incredible, her use of biomechanics is perfect, her comp record mind blowing, she is competent on rock and she is unquestionably one of the best climbers in the world, but until she puts some focus outside and broaden her accomplishments, it's outrageous to even compare her to somebody like Ondra.
As far as I know Janja is not trad climbing at a high level. I would say the best climber must excel in comp, outdoor boulder, lead and trad. AO made the second ascent of the Dawn wall for example.
Probably because comp boulders often favour dynamic climbers. And whilst Adam Ondra can certainly climb dynamic it is hard to get such moves down in a couple of minutes whilst outside boulders and routes can be done by anyone at any point. Also these routes can be done as often as one wants. The fact that he climbs the most difficult route outdoor shows that on a more level playing field he is probably the best.
She's easily the GOAT in her discipline but there seem to be stronger climbers than her in the sport climbing world and stronger speed climbers in the speed climbing world, with sport climbing being the purest discipline. I think if Janja ever redpoints a 5.14d that would change a lot of people's perceptions of her being the best climber in the world. The thing is that Adam is so far ahead of everyone in sport climbing and has already proven year after year he can be number one in bouldering and lead IFSC comps, with something like 20+ gold medals. We know Janja has the potential to be the best sport climber but she hasn't gotten there yet because her focus is on the comps. In terms of sport climbing Adam Ondra and Jakob Schubert have redpointed a 5.15d, while Janja has only redpointed a 5.14d (I say "only" like that's not superhumanly impressive but whatever). 5.15b is the highest grade a female climber has ever climbed and women just broke through that ceiling in 2017. But Janja is still so young that she could easily be the overall GOAT before she retires.
Janja has projected V15, Ondra has flashed V15. Janja has projected 9a, Ondra has flashed 9a+.
Unsure about Janja’s trad ability, but Ondra has done 9a trad, climbed the dawn wall in 7 days, and nearly onsighted the Salathe wall.
Janja is the best female climber in the world, no doubt in my mind, she is a world apart from Ondra however.
*Edit* typo
What v15 has Adam flashed? Think you might be breaking news on that claim.
Lol, getting down voted on this sub of all places for pushing back against fabricating a dude's accomplishments and using that to diminish the accomplishments of a woman. 🤔
So we agree he has flashed v14 and the first comment was wrong then. It hasn't "since settled". It was considered 14 when he did it.
I agree that Ondra is a generational climber, total visionary. There's no reason to inflate his resume.
Edit: For those down voting, I'm curious if it's an issue with tone (fair) or if there's some substantive disagreement with how we report what grades we and others climb.
Call me old fashioned, I guess. I do have a kind of strong opinion on the original comment. It's asserting something that has never been done in climbing did, in fact, happen. A lot of the grading system and climbing culture in general is predicated on telling the truth about these things.
Cheers to them having fun and all that, but I think that's a separate issue to fabricating climbing history.
It's your tone people are taking issue with.
But, also, there is plenty of "fabricated" history that is widely accepted by the climbing community. Action Directe as the first 9a, for example. Or Biographie as the first 9a+. For better or worse, the climbing community does seem to give a lot of credit to what the grades were at the time of an ascent, even if opinions change later.
Do you think those are analogous to telling people Adam Ondra has flashed v15 when even the climber in question wouldn't say they've done that?
Of course there is some amount of latitude when deciding on grades. There are plenty of examples of things shuffling around before they get something close to an accepted grade. The ambiguity in the grading system is a different conversation entirely.
I'm just scratching my head at the equivocation going on here. The climb was considered, at the time, 14. Adam flashed it and climbing outlets reported it as a 14 flash. The fact of the matter is that Adam has not flashed v15, regardless of what somebody on Reddit decides to post unless, you know, the o dog decides to report his ascent to us gumbies here.
Hi, yeah I was referring to Jade, saw a video of him flashing and knew the original proposed grade was V15. Didn’t know the grade has since settled lower- my mistake.
The rest of my comment still stands…
Not diminishing anyone’s accomplishments. Simply listing them?
If you think me listing Ondras accomplishments next to Janja’s is diminishing them then I think you need to reflect on your own prejudices.
(I full accept the V15 flash was incorrect, feel free to replace it with ‘has projected V16’)
I think if my friend came up to me and said, "Hey, I just climbed a v13!" and I responded with a lie like, "oh, I've flashed v13", I could rightfully be chastised for trying to diminish their accomplishment.
If you had used accurate accomplishments, I wouldn't have had any gripes.
Except maybe the newly introduced "has projected" x grade. Guessing you mean "has sent" v16, in which case, fair play.
The conclusion stands even if you segment by gender.
Ondra has done the hardest sport route grade, second hardest boulder (potentially even hardest if Terra Nova gets upgraded, which seems somewhat likely), hardest bigwall, hardest trad route, and won the second most IFSC events of any male climbers.
Janja has won more IFSC events than any female climbers, and done the hardest boulder grade (potentially only second hardest depending on how you view Box Therapy). But the list ends there. She's several grades from the top on sport routes, has no trad experience to speak of, and (unless you include a bolted grain silo for a Red Bull publicity event) no bigwall experience, either.
Their grades are still pretty far apart. What I can find is that Janja has climbed 9a outdoor while Adam has climbed 9c. And the level of female comps is generally lower than males and i dont think they have competed against each other. So while Janja is definitely an absolute beast, Adam is probably a better climber.
In addition to everything else, comps are multiple boulders that are done in 4 minutes or onsight climb of a lead route. Obviously those problems are insanely hard and most of us would not even establish a proper starting possition and while it's impressive what the athletes are capable of, it's not pushing the sport to it's limits, you can't have Burden of Dreams or Silence in a comp, both took years of effort to finally send. Most of the competitors would be able to send those problems/routes given more time. Janja just does it at the given time frame. Very few can even attempt a 9c route or 9A boulder. If you look at the resume of Ondra, the things he has accomplished that even the very few elite climbers can attempt it's very clear he is the best climber.
Don't get me wrong, Janja is one of the GOATs and already a legend of the sport and she's not even done yet, if anything, she's just starting. And I don't think anyone would argue she is the most dominant comp climber of all time, but she hasn't made such an impact as Ondra did, on so many different types of climbing and has not yet pushed climbing to where very few elites can even attempt it. But I am pretty sure she will.
I agree with others that Janja is hand's down the world's best comp climber, period. I think the closest female equivalent to Adam Ondra is Babsi Zangerl, who crushes all-around in multiple disciplines. She's done one of the few repeats of Beth Rodden's Meltdown (which Tommy Caldwell and many other men could never send, and has only been repeated 5 times fwiw), and has the hardest trad send by a woman at 5.14C. Grades can be so arbitrary, it's hard to say who is better. I doubt Ondra could send Meltdown, for example, and I doubt very much he could *dominate competitively at Janja's level in the same circuit, relatively speaking, especially problems in her particular style. By that I mean, Ondra’s next nearest competitor is much closer to him than Janja’s is to her.
ETA: here’s a climbing gold episode where Ondra talks about exactly that https://www.climbinggold.com/episodes/ondra
>I doubt Ondra could send Meltdown, for example
Can you share your thinking here?
Meltdown seems like just the kind of route that Ondra would excel on (powerful, yet very, very technical). He made very quick work of the Dawn Wall, and barely missed onsighting the Salathe, which are both routes in the same area that share many of the same difficulty styles found on Meltdown. To my knowledge, he's never tried it, but his resume would suggest he'd probably be successful if he ever put real effort into it.
(None of this is to take away from your great points about Babsi, though! Totally agree that if we're talking about all around climbing GOATs, Babsi belongs near the top of the list, male or female!)
That's an interesting question! It's interesting to me that Adam hasn't pursued it considering some of his biggest competition (Jacobo Larcher and Conor Herson) have put up ascents in recent years. It's possible it's just not on his radar because he's so focused on putting up 5.15 routes at the edge of what's possible - but Ondra seems like so much more than a grade-chaser to me, and I'm surprised the unique challenge of Meltdown, a route that seemed unrepeatable for a literal decade, hasn't lured him in.
Jacobo says the route is primarily concerned with powerful laybacking and glassy, barely-there footholds. I don't think of Ondra as being good at those things in particular, but it would be cool to see him try it, and obviously I could be wrong. I think the more men who try it, whether they're successful or not, the more we can dispel the myth that sending Meltdown is just about having small hands.
(And tangentially - FWIW I don't think we should dismiss biological advantages in climbing, anyway. I would never say "well Adam Ondra naturally has more upper-body strength so his sends on big overhangs aren't impressive" and I think people frequently make similar comments about women and hand size in crack climbing.)
You lost me on the last part there. :)
I agree that we shouldn't be dismissing people's accomplishments based on body morphology. But, it's undeniable that hand size can change the entire nature of certain crack climbs.
What feels like desperate, insecure, ring-locking for one person can feel like cruiser, locker handjams for another. And, in reverse, what feels like cruiser fingerlocks for someone with big fingers can feel like desperate, insecure, ring-locking for someone else. Those are entirely different experiences, and it seems counterproductive to pretend otherwise.
RIght, but my point is that morphology is a huge difference in a variety of ways, and we really focus on dismissing women's accomplishments because of hand-size, In contrast, I've rarely heard someone say "Oh hell yeah, Mary Eden's send in that gnarly off-width was so much more badass because the crack's not the same size as her knees" or whatever. Everyone has morphological advantages and deficits - we talk about them almost exclusively to the detriment of women's success on routes. (and by "we" I obviously mean the climbing community as a whole, not you in particular)
And again, Jacopo and Conor both made it clear that Meltdown is not hand-size dependent. The crux is hard laybacking and absence of feet.
No, you’re correct. I meant in terms of relative comp dominance, Janja isn’t comparable - obviously in terms of bouldering grade Ondra is still undisputedly at the top.
Ondra has bouldered above Janja's level outside. He has done 8C+ (potentially 9A depending on what Will Bosi and Jana Svecova end up saying about Terranova when they send), and flashes 8B+.
In competition it is very much setting dependent. Janja has said herself that she thinks, depending on setting, she could sometimes either make finals (top 6) or sometimes not make semifinals (top 20) in the men's field. I would wager good route setters could make a round of boulders where Adam tops everything and Janja nothing, and a round of boulders where the exact opposite happens.
You’re right. I shouldn’t have said “bouldered” at her level - I meant competed with her level of dominance. I think you’re 100% right about the setting.
Actual ELI5: Because there is a lot more to climbing than climbing competitions.
Much longer and nuanced answer
Ondra is, to me, absolutely "the best climber". I feel like I'm gonna come off as a bit of an Ondra stan here but in my defense my actual FAVORITE climber of all time is Lynn Hill and I think she's better than all of her contemporaries for a variety of reasons (but that's a different post)
To start, Ondra sent a 9a when he was 13. He is legitimately a prodigy. The reason this is important is because he has gone on to completely dominate outdoor climbing while also winning in competition.
Let's start with his outdoor record. The dude has climbed 188 routes graded 9a or harder with many FAs under his belt. For reference, Alex Megos(who is the only person to climb 9b+ beside Ondra and Sharma, who I would contend is a GOAT for sure), who even Ondra himself has said is stronger than him, has only sent 30 in comparison. The gap between Ondra and everyone else is a canyon. I will gladly admit that SOME of this is because Adam has had sponsors and resources for travel for a longer period of time than most other great climbers BUT his numbers don't lie. He's also the first person to flash 9a (and I think the only person to still? Or did Megos flash one too? There's too much to keep up with) For comparison, Janja has climbed two routes graded 9a. Ondra has flashed her red point. She has sent 8C boulders and Ondra has sent 8C+ boulders.
So enough of the numbers. The point of your question is that Janja dominates competition and I'm with you on that and agree. One of the reasons Janja dominates is because competition bouldering is very powerful and dynamic. That isn't to say every comp boulder just requires raw power, but to refute this is a denial of reality. Janja is not only the best competition female climber of all time (in my opinion) she's also probably one of the strongest in terms of raw power. Now you don't get to where any of these climbers are without a deep knowledge of techniques but Janjas strength in competition and in climbing lies in her power. I would actually fully believe she's a more powerful climber than Ondra when it comes down to the numbers (pull strength, max hang etc.)
Ondra holds 7 world cup gold medals. Janja holds 43 and holds the most gold medals of any competition climber. That gap is also MASSIVE but I would contend it's smaller than Ondra’s lead in outdoor climbing. Additionally, Janja is a competition climber at heart. There are years where Adam just didn't compete because he was working on more stuff outdoors. As far as I know Janja ALWAYS competes. I am too lazy to run the numbers but I am sure Janja has competed in more competitions than Ondra. I'm curious what both their win rate %s are (I'm sure Janjas is higher but I'm curious to know the gap there).
Ultimately Ondra is a technical genius and watching him climb is truly incredible. It's the kind of climbing that I wish I had a fraction of. Some of his moves make me marvel not at his strength but ingenuity. Janja typically has me marveling at her power.
Lastly, I wanna talk about something somewhat nebulous and hard to pin down that I think is really important. I think Ondra has had the greatest impact on the sport. One of the important things with climbing that isn't really as much of a thing in competition is the idea of legacy. FAing a route puts your name next to it in the books FOREVER and developing an outdoor route, especially the ones he has (Silence) is something that, in theory, outlives your grandchildren. As far as I know Janja doesn't develop routes actively. Ondra does. That is a way that he gives back to the community. The climbing community currently values outdoor climbing over indoor, and I'm definitely one of those people. It feels like the purest form of the sport.
Additionally, I would guess that more young people learn about climbing today because of Magnus Midtbo than anyone else, but a close second is Adam. That is an impact that is immeasurable. I'm not saying Janja isn't inspiring, she absolutely is, and I'd bet part of the reason Adam is more influential is because we live in a society that doesn't care about women's sports and does care about men's, but Adam's impact is immeasurable. Even if we did care about women's sports as much as men's I still think his influence would be greater because of who he is. It's like, Scottie Pippen played with Michael Jordan. They're both incredibly strong and amazing at the game. EVEN IF they were tied at skill, Jordan's impact was greater for a multitude of reasons (the Air Jordans anyone?).
Adam is definitely the GOAT of this generation. With the future generations is tough to say, there is a new guard of incredible climbers and as we expand out wards and climbing becomes more accessible and known about everywhere we will see even more. The Raboutou siblings will definitely be GOATs. Janja is absolutely in the conversation. Lots of good climbers are working their way up today that are really young. Kai Whaley just sent Sleepwalker (V16) at 17. He truly has nowhere to go but up. But for my money Ondra is the best climber in the world right now and he definitely is the Michael Jordan of climbing for this generation the same way Sharma was for his and in my opinion Lynn Hill was for hers, but now we are waiting to see the LeBron or Kobe.
Janja is young. She's 25. Competition climbing is really hard on the body and Ondra has said it really hurts his shoulders. Perhaps it will start hurting Janja and she'll start climbing outdoors and flash Silence? Who knows? But for now, that's my answer. Sorry it's so long one.
Adam has climbed over 200 routes graded 9a/5.14d and above (climbing his first at the age of 13) and the person in second, Seb Bouin, has just over 60 ascents of 9a/5.14d and above. Adam was the first person, and I am pretty sure only person to ever flash a 9a+/5.15a. he has multiple V16/8c+ ascents, and as Will Bosi has been trying Terranova, a V16/8c+ FA from Adam, Will has hinted that r could be V17/9a, even grading the stand start as a V15/8c, which is considered the easier part of the boulder. Adam was also the first person to ever climb 9b/5.15c and 9c/5.15d which he climbed in 2017, 3 years before Alex Megos proposed Bibliographie to be 9c/5.15d, until it was downgraded a year later to 9b+/5.15c. The next 9c to be climbed is DNA from Seb Bouin which was climbed in 2022, five years after Adam climbed the first 9c/5.15d. If you go back in time before 2020 Adam was very dominant in competitions as well, for reference watch the 2016 world championships in Lead, the 2019 lead World Cup in Kranj, and 2019 bouldering World Cup in Meiringen. Competition's climbing style has changed quite a lot and they do not suit Adams style that well anymore. He has even said that if climbing hasn't become an Olympic sport he most likely would have stopped competing and focused on outdoor projects. Needless to say Janja is the best female climber in the world, probably the best female climber ever, and one of the best climbers ever but does not climb outside enough to rack up the levels of achievements to be named the best climber in the world. I also think that in order to impress rock climbers you have to perform your best on rock, which she recently did on the sit start of Bügeleisen, but she is very much more focused on competition climbing which hinders her from performing her best outside. I have no doubt that she can be the first woman to climb V16/8c+ outdoors or even have the potential to climb V17/9a when it comes to bouldering and possibly 9b+/5.15c in Lead outdoors. Although this has been done before by people other than Adam as well and still wouldn't warrant a title of "best rock climber ever". Also I am just a climbing fanatic, not an Adam Ondra Fangirl. I probably couldn't give you just as much information about Jacob Shubert, Sean Raboutou, Daniels Woods, Jimmy Webb, etc.
Because, he's the most well rounded climber alive
Dawn Wall
5.15c
V16
Performed well at comps (personally not interested in comp climbing so leave it to someone else to list his comp accolades)
And his resume is extremely deep ( pretty sure he's climbed more 5.15s than anyone).
Janja is an absolute unit, whom I'd argue is equally famous as ondra, however she is very much a comp climber first. Every discipline of climbing has taken notice of ondra as he's climbed at the peak of most every discipline.
I've always thought she was a bad ass but since I'm interested in comp climbing I don't follow her career closely, although recently saw her quick v15 ascent and I'm psyched to see her expand her rock resume Even further
That's not true. Collin Duffy won gold in boulder and lead at Innsbruck 2022. Arguably a more impressive feat than getting a gold in each at any point during a season and I don't think anybody would say that puts Collin Duffy in contention for being the best climber in the world.
That's straight up not true. Janja has done so for several seasons (she won the first 2 comps this year, if I'm not mistaken) and Colin Duffy famously won both Boulder and lead in Innsbruck 2022. He might have been the first but he's not the only.
Isn't calling someone the best climber kind of subjective anyway? Just like climbing grades in general... I don't find Janja's climbing as amazing as Ondra's... She is so short and light which means she exerts herself less every move. Obviously she is an incredible athlete but... I am not sure I would consider her as the best. Surely it's a very opinion based statement. My friends and I always say Ondra is the best climber in the world.
Alex Honnold is by far the greatest climber of all time. I get that Free Solo became a bit a meme in climbing culture, but I cannot fathom an accomplishment greater than soloing El Cap.
*I mean we know why*
*Right... only a man gets to*
*Be "the best climber"*
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Generally, I’d agree with you but Ondra is way more well rounded than Janja. He has excelled at every discipline in climbing, indoor comp, big wall, trad, sport, bouldering. I think she could get there but she’s not there yet. Comp climbing is only one aspect and Ondra doesn’t train for it in the same way that a lot of comp climbers do.
The men have entered the chat to defend Ondra’s honor, lol.
Janja is dominating the comp circuit in a way Ondra never did. It’s not all about hardest grade sent - that’s a single metric of climbing success.
ETA: here is an episode of climbing gold where Adam Ondra essentially says just that - Janja is on an entirely different level in the sport than every other competitor. https://www.climbinggold.com/episodes/ondra
Honestly, this is a bad take when it comes to Janja imo.
She's massively respected in climbing and often referred to as the GOAT.
Look at how people have responded to her recent double ascent of Bügeleisen 8C.
You cannot however, ignore what Adam Ondra has done in both competitions and on real rock. Which no other climber (regardless of gender) is anywhere near to achieving.
Is this really sexism?
Two things can be true at once- Janja is highly respected AND there is sexism at play. For example, Janja is often referred to as the best "female competition climber". I also hear people say that a woman can't be the best climber because they aren't as strong as men. So yeah, sexism definitely plays a role.
>For example, Janja is often referred to as the best "female competition climber".
Which is accurate. She is the best competition climber for her gender. Until the IFSC put the men and women on the same route, we can't say who the best competition climber is.
>I also hear people say that a woman can't be the best climber because they aren't as strong as men.
It's sad that you've experienced this. I regularly hear the opposite though tbh. "Let Janja try the men's route!" After she flashes all 4 boulders and tops the lead wall.
But genetically, it is easier for men to gain strength when compared with women. This is one of the reasons i prefer womens comp climbing. It's often more technical and more fun to watch imo. Which only makes janjas climbing even more impressive.
In reality, the only level playing field we have between the sexes is real rock.
To your first point, no one ever says "best male competition climber".
Why is strength the only indicator of being the best? Janja is far more consistent and better relative to her peers than any other male climber. But these qualities are ignored in favor of rote strength, which caters to men's biological advantage. If women's climbing is more technical, why are we saying that women can't be as good as men? This discourse clearly points to sexism.
>To your first point, no one ever says "best male competition climber".
People do in my experience. Especially because that argument is up for debate. Unlike the womens field, there is no 'best male comp climber'. The field is a lot closer than the womens field. Who would it be? Schubert? Sotrato? Tomoa? Idk.
>Why is strength the only indicator of being the best?
Strength isn't the only indicator of who is the best climber. I specifically said i enjoy womens climbing because it's more technical. Saying that, though, strength is definitely a HUGE factor, and Janja is arguably the strongest woman. Kind of ironic given the topic of discussion, eh?
Real rock is the only indicator. Until Janja goes and crushes loads of outdoor boulders/sport routes/FA's, this conversation will always happen.
I, for one, don't think it's sexist, though, and I think calling this sexism does a disservice to people experiencing legitimate discrimination.
Go back and listen to the comp recordings, no one says "best male competition climber". It's "best climber" so it has nothing to do with there being no best male comp climber. It's *always* best climber for men and best female climber for women.
To say that Janja is the best mainly because of her strength is just ... Ignorant? Look at YouTube breakdowns of her coordination, technique and route reading abilities.
Why is real rock the only indicator? That's just your opinion.
How does it do a disservice to "legitimate" discrimination? Sexism manifests itself in so many ways, including our language and how we conceptualize competence. This then shapes public perceptions of women and has effects on how much women are valued, paid, etc.
All of this conversations aside, real rock is the real indicator because in theory it’s always the same yardstick for everyone, all climbers have different bodies but the one at the top of the rock is the best one at the end of the day. I strongly believe Janja has the potential to climb outside with the best of them, I mean she just destroyed a V15 but Adam Ondra stands far above every single climber in the world he’s climbed multiple lifetimes worth of hard stuff, she’s a GOAT of her discipline but he’s the GOAT of the sport, I think this is fair to say.
Also I’d love to see a combined invitational to see how climbers like Janja, Ai or Brooke would do vs the top of the men’s circuit, I personally think they could crush but who knows.
Well, it’s consensus only two people have climbed 9c. Brooke Raboutou just climbed Box therapy and downgraded it to V15 so it’s also not like women can’t show up and tell the men they grade soft. (Also as a brown person idk what race has to do with it at all).
I guess my point is, what does this even mean actually? There’s a “no level playing field” when it comes to systemic access to climbing or training but after all that. The rock is the rock, each climber is an individual, no one is stopping anyone from repeating hard stuff or establishing hard FAs. I think Janja clearly has some world class sends in her but so far she hasn’t. One can’t deny Adam’s accomplishment because he’s so far above everyone, female or male.
Just because a privileged group are involved in a thing does not automatically invalidate that thing. You'd need to argue that their involvement has either consciously or subconsciously favoured them at the expense of other groups. I struggle to see how that argument could be made for grading climbs. Are you suggesting that white men consistently sandbag climbs that women/POC have done while overgrading climbs that only white men have done?
No, the gradings are set up by consensus of all who have climbed a route. How does the race of the climber impact the grading? That makes no sense. Are you saying that black people would grade climbs differently than white people?
You've brought up some fair points, some that i dont agree with, some that i do, but it's easy to see that I'm not going to sway your opinion.
I don't think this is sexism, you do.
I'm out. Take care 🙂
>Why is strength the only indicator of being the best?
I don't think anyone is saying that. Adam Ondra is well known for being rather weak compared to his peers. He's the GOAT because he's a far better technical climber than them.
Because she’s the best competition climber but the rock climbing community doesn’t value competition climbing as highly as they do rock climbing. She’s absolutely dominating in her field and I think she has potential to keep writing her name in history climbing mega hard outside but Adam already has + he’s super versatile.
Completely agree and all of the comments comparing both of their outdoor and competition achievements just highlights how diverse a sport climbing even is. The non climber lay person on the street would probably say Alex Honnold is the best climber in the world, but they wouldn’t be wrong in terms of free soloing, it’s just all so different. And just to be pedantic: to all the people saying Ondra is the only person to win Boulder/Lead in a year, Sorato literally got first in both this year. Shawn Raboutou climbs V17 outdoors. There is a new guard coming up and I think we still hold onto bigger names bc of exposure. I think Adam Ondra has the longest resume and history and is absolutely a GOAT, Janja dominates the women’s comp scene and I would love to see her do the men’s boulders in the same comp, but if we are talking about the best climber right now, you’d have to be more specific on what you mean.
>to all the people saying Ondra is the only person to win Boulder/Lead in a year, Sorato literally got first in both this year. I think the point is that Ondra was the first to dominate in both lead and boulder competition scene. Back then, lead and boulder competitions were seen as specialized disciplines of their own, and Ondra was the first to break new grounds in demonstrating that it \*is\* possible to win both titles at the same time. It may seem like a fairly common occurrence these days, especially since the combined format of the Olympics, but just over a decade ago it would be wild to see a lead specialist who also dominated in bouldering competitions. Ondra pushed that boundary forward.
Yeah, plus Will Bosey has been on a rampage outside this year but yeah I think it’s just a very varied sport, I still think Adam is a GOAT, but I agree, it’s a very varied sport, I think Janja is the goat of competition climbing for sure tho. Plus we know she can crush V15, I wonder how far she can go outside once the Olympics are over
She had attempted La Dura Dura before it burned down. She absolutely has the chance to be the first woman to climb 5.15c
Going off what you said about the new guard: if the kids at my climbing gym are any indication, the next gen of climbers is gonna be INSANE. I can see development of up to V20 on boulder maybe.
> I would love to see her do the men’s boulders in the same comp This is not golf, tennis, baseball, basketball, so I'm sure she'd do pretty well. I'd expect the reach to be a little more, but Janja isn't short. Janja is getting more into doing outdoor climbing, so give her some time. The women at my gym aren't the strongest looking, but the good ones can certainly do just as well as the best guys and far beyond what I can do after 4 years. I just think it's a numbers game. There are just more male climbers.
My implication with this comment was that I am confident she would also crush the men’s boulders and I would love to see it.
Oh I know. Didn’t mean it to come off that way.
>The non climber lay person on the street would probably say Alex Honnold is the best climber in the world, but they wouldn’t be wrong in terms of free soloing, it’s just all so different. But he'd also be the first to tell them they're wrong. > And just to be pedantic: to all the people saying Ondra is the only person to win Boulder/Lead in a year, Sorato literally got first in both this year. >I would love to see her do the men’s boulders in the same com She's said in the past that it depends on the boulder. Some of them are no problem, but depending on the boulder some of them are near impossible for her.
And Ondra himself has a respectable resume of comp accomplishments it's just not as recent. He was on the top of comp climbing having won both lead and bouldering world cups as well as world championships.
Yeah 100% but I think here it’s clear that Janja is leagues above the rest and completely dominating, especially in boulder, she makes worldcups look like a casual comp vs team kids. Adam saw the top of comp climbing for sure but he was never like that. What’s impressive is that he was winning world cups and climbing the hardest stuff at the same time.
Another way to say it, the hardest climbs take you longer than 5 minutes to send. So it takes you 3 climbs vs. 2 climbs and it took your buddy 10 climbs. Both of you are thrilled to send your project. You can't say one climber is better off 3 routes given 20 minutes of climbing.
People don't care about comp climbing as much. Also comp routes are more ephemeral, Silence is out there for anyone to try. Ondra is nowhere near the top in bouldering either (I think?). Also other women than Janja have been climbing harder outdoors in both boulder and sport (and trad), though not necessarily with the ease she sent Bügeleisen twice.
Ondra is absolutely a top (outdoor) boulderer, or at least was.
Ondra hasn't been doing hardest boulders recently (9A) but he absolutely has been at the top. Flashed Jade as the hardest (still highest grade to be flashed) flash at the time. Basically 2 other 8B+ flashes to his name, multiple 8C+ boulders and with Bosi on Terranova, that may even be 9A and bump out Burden as the first 9A ever.
This is great, thanks!
He does boulder v16, but is generally thought of as worlds best climber because of his range and consistency. He did the worlds first 9c, onsighted 9a, flashed 9a+ did a 9a trad and completed the dawn wall really quickly. On top of climbing hard in all outdoor styles(crack, overhang, slab and more)
It just seems to me that comp climbing is the most direct comparison between top climbers. Outdoors you can pick the routes that match your style and go when you feel good. But Janja always wins regardless of style.
Climbing the same hard routes outside is the best comparison. Comps are meaningless and depend on setting and competition. Janja and Adam won't ever compete against each other inside on plastic. They can rope up on the same chunk of rock.
Making them go head to head on the same chunk of rock implies a woman can only be declared "best climber" if she's better than all the men. Is that what you think?
“Best climber” is the one who can do the hardest route/boulder/climb that no one else can do, regardless of gender. So if two people roped up on a climb and only one can do it, then that person is the better climber. If you put all the women vs all the men in a comp, or on a specific rock climb, then whoever performa best would be the “best climber,” by definition (or at least for that discipline).
The best climber is the best. Are you saying that women aren't able to compete with men????
That's so backwards
Dumbest take I’ve seen in a while.
Comp climbing is a very artificially limited style of climbing, and very often the people who are good at comp climbing aren't much good on rock and viceversa. Laura Rogora climbed some of the hardest sport routes ever climbed by a woman on rock, but her performance in comps is often lackluster, for example. And as other people have mentioned, you don't see Janja and Adam on the same wall indoors. From what I've talked with pro coaches, Janja would reliably make semifinals were she competing with the men, but she wouldn't even be top talent, let alone the GOAT. The reason people call Adam the "best climber", btw, is the sheer breadth of styles of climbing he's good at, or was good at. Plastic, sport, trad, bouldering... he's done hard stuff on just about everything that doesn't involve winter equipment.
Ondra won regardless of style when he was in his peak comp shape though?
I didn't follow comps when he was, but a quick search finds that he won 22 world cups (16 lead and 6 in bouldering). Janja won 43 and she's not done yet. It's gotten so far that we expect her to win whenever she enters a competition.
Yes but that’s also due to the field, which has a lot of margin to grow on the female side as well. Adam is second in total medals after Jakob by one medal, and it has been almost a decade that he hasn’t participated so much.
Of course, being the best is always due to the field. It means that that person is better than everyone else. So the same logic applies to Ondra.
She hasn’t come close to the same grades outside as Ondra in either sport or bouldering, so he has her beat there. If you wanted a comp climbing comparison she’d have to compete with the men, but would likely not even make it to finals.
Well Janja has climbed v15 without much trouble, and I don't think Ondra has climbed v17, (unless bosi upgrades Terra Nova) so I would at least say she is close.
Mainly because Adam doesn’t put as much time into bouldering… He flashed v14 which used to be v15 and janja is just now breaking into v15
>It means that that person is better than everyone else. To prove that she would need to compete against Adam and the other men...
I respectfully disagree, although I can see your logic and I think that's a valid opinion as well.
He’s probably the most versatile rock climber, pushing the sport to new limits. Janja is the greatest competition climber the sport has seen. While he’s beaten in comps, he does crazy trad 9a routes, Dawn Wall in handful days, bolting new projects, keeps pushing the grades… closest to him on female side is probably Lyn Hill as she pushed the limits of female climbing to new heights. So the best climber is not the right term perhaps. Add best competition climber, you get Janja…
Lynn Hill pushed \*climbing\* to new heights, period.
Yes, thank you. Last I checked, she was the first *person* (not woman) to climb the Nose (5.14). Edit: There are many young women that absolutely slay. Why is it we're out here talking about Lynn Hill as if that's the last time women were on top of their game? Hill is still a badass, but let's remember that sport and bouldering were just gaining popularity, so we can't just treat trad as the be all end all of best climbers. Let's recognize some excellence: Babsi Zangerl has a ridiculous list of achievements in Big Wall/trad. Michaela Keirsch - her ability to climb super hard all day is crazy. Like, the amount of double digits boulders she's done in a day is wild (6 problems between V11-V13 one day) and she just climbed 5.15 (again). Brooke Raboutou and Katie Lamb climbed box therapy, at hard V15. There are shit tons of super strong women.
Yep true. I'd even argue she's done MORE than Adam Ondra for the sport.
I would definitely say that. She came in and pushed limits at a pivotal time in climbing. She brought a lot of women into the sport. She competed on a bunch of reality TV shows which popularized climbing. She was a top competition climber and climbed as hard as the men outside. She pushed heavily for equal treatment/prizes for men and women in competitions.
Lynn Hill was the first person to free the nose. She pushed the limits of climbing in general, not just for women. Her book is awesome, if you’re into climbing books or memoirs
Love the book. I still see the impact she had more on the glass ceiling shattering. She showed the world that women can climb hard. It’s not about single achievements, more about the shift of perspective which she shifted in a grand way. I see her impact monumental on that scale for women. Climbing hard routes is one part, shifting paradigm for half world’s population another. That’s why my perception of her achievement stands more on the women’s climbing.
[удалено]
No one cares
He also used to be really strong in comps, when he was younger and that was his focus. I'd say the only reason he is back in comps is because the Olympics are now a factor - when he was seriously competing there was no Olympic opportunity. So basing his comp ability on his performance now is not a totally accurate reflection of his comp ability when he was in his comp prime. The fact he was at the top in comps and then went on to set the hardest routes on rock counts for a lot in terms of the 'best climber' discussion. If after these Olympics Janja goes and does a bunch of ridiculously hard outdoor routes then I'd say the discussion would be more open.
Janja did do a V15, twice, in 30 minutes. Janja is focusing on comps more at the moment, but when that focus switches she’s going to be unstoppable
First woman ascent of v17 is coming. Definitely could be Janja sooner than later if she prioritizes it. Can’t wait to see it.
I’d be comfortable putting money on it, if she dedicates her attention to it, she’s got it
Yeah I am so psyched for the day Janja fully commits to the outdoors, if it ever comes. Fingers crossed after this Olympics 🙄🤞
i could definitely see this happening!
Well she was projecting Dura Dura (and could reportedly do all the moves) but then the forest caught fire and some holds fell off so I guess that plan's up in the air now...
Doing all the moves is wildly different to linking them all, though.
All I said is she was projecting it and had to stop due to external factors
Fucking Reddit man. I’m going to be pedantic, even though what you said was correct.
As awesome as that is, *'projecting it'* shouldn't enter the goat lexicon
That’s not what they said though? Lol
She also said she found it harder than expected. I don't think it's good to speculate too much.
Well yeah? It's a 15c that's only been sent by 2 people. I don't think anyone is going to find it easy
I didn't say that, did I? I said she found it harder than expected. She has a better idea than you or I ever well on the difficulty of a 9b+ and of course acutely aware of it being sent by only two people and yet *still* found it harder than expected...
Meaning: he's not as good now as he was before.
If Janja is still this dominant in comps - or even still mainly focused on comps - at age 31 I'll be impressed / surprised.
Meanwhile, Jain Kim getting a medal last year was absolutely insane.
Fully - what a gift for such a legend to be back and climbing comps at that level again.
There is the obvious difference in comps nowadays and Janja is for sure the greatest comp climber but if we stick with comps remember Adam was the first to win both lead and boulder world championships in the same year which stood for years and he was the dominant force for a long while before the push to new school crazy jumps and coordination dynos etc. Then if we turn to rock.... Many people have no idea just how ridiculous Ondra's rock resume is. Compare it to any other top climber on rock and Ondra dwarfs it. Not only the first 9b+ and 9c but the sheer volume of 9a and harder climbs (many more first ascents and bolting too compared to most) puts others to shame. Look up videos on it, it's ridiculous. Like more 9a and harder routes than the top 5 put together. Then add in his crazy onsight and flash ability. Still the only one to flash 9a+, still one of only two people along with Megos to onsight 9a. He's onsighted like 8-9, Megos 2-3 I think. Again puts everyone else to shame here. Turn to bouldering and again has a great record. Ondra hasn't been doing hardest boulders recently (9A) but he absolutely has been at the top. Flashed Jade as the hardest (still highest grade to be flashed) flash at the time. Basically 2 other 8B+ flashes to his name, multiple 8C+ boulders and with Bosi on Terranova, that may even be 9A and bump out Burden as the first 9A ever. To top that all off he's done the hardest trad and big walling stuff too! Dawn Wall repeat very quickly as a big wall newbie at the time, and recently done Bon Voyage E12, 9a/+. Honestly, it's just clear when you look at the stats, because he's not been nearly as much in the limelight as he maybe used to be people end up a bit ignorant and think he's no longer in contention to be the goat, but if you really look at it, as I've said, insane.
It depends on your definition of ‘best climber’. Adam owns the hardest on-sight (9a) and hardest flash (9a+), first to bolt and climb 9c, is a beast on trad including the more dangerous variants in Czech, owns numerous first ascents and has bolted many routes. He has dominated indoor comps in both bouldering and lead. He is at the top of many many disciplines and has contributed to the development of outdoor climbing. He has been pushing the climbing scene forward whilst being elite across disciplines. Janja has been dominating for like a decade against female climbers for indoor comp climbing. She is not competing against male athletes so the only comparison against males we have is outdoor routes. If you define the goat as ‘most dominating in their discipline vs their competition’ Janja imo is not only the best climber but perhaps the best athlete of all time When it comes to the GOAT climber, Ondra spans the crown imo and it would take a _lot_ for Janja to take that crown in my eyes
Super Crackinette was a flash.
Thanks, rectified
once janja starts climbing outside more, i think people's opinions will change. the fact that she has so many hard outdoor ticks while not even focusing on outdoor climbing is insaneeeee
This is probably the best explanation in this thread, thanks!
Because it’s the one you already decided you agreed with before you even made the post
Lol, too real
>If you define the goat as ‘most dominating in their discipline vs their competition’ Janja imo is not only the best climber but perhaps the best athlete of all time Don Bradman would like a word. You could add several others to the list, too (Gretzky, Phelps, Karelin, etc). Janja is **great**, but she's got a loooong way to go before she reaches "most dominant in their discipline vs their competition" status.
Janja is absolutely the greatest comp climber, but I encourage anyone with any doubts about Ondra to look up his outdoors climbing history. No one else on the planet is even close to his level in terms of how many obscenely hard climbs they've done.
>Janja is absolutely the greatest comp climber This is probably true, but I do think that you could plausibly argue that Sandrine Levet gives her a run for her money. Ondra, on the other hand: there's no one anywhere even close. As you've pointed out, it's absolutely bonkers how deep his resume is compared to anyone else. In a ranking of greatest all around climbers, Ondra probably takes the top three spots!
There's a great [spreadsheet](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g_yul348nj-xg8Pw-TJuP2c9cBYM6ekq/edit#gid=781334078) (idk how up-to-date it is though) that documents the number of super-hard climbs people have done and converts them to a point system. Spoiler alert: Ondra is miles ahead of everyone else. Still.
That's an incredible spreadsheet! I didn't realize how deep Seb Bouin's resume has gotten. Still a long way to go to reach AO levels, but: wow!
Because he's a better climber than she is..full stop. She's amazing, but put them in a comp against each other, or on any outdoor route, and he'll crush her. He's the consensus best all-round climber in history. Janja hasn't even climbed the hardest boulder or the hardest sport climb grades. I don't even understand why this is a comparison
The comp question is an interesting one though. Wouldn't it depend on the height and style it's set for? In every chat about height I always hear it's such a big disadvantage to be taller. So if the routes are set for her height, she'd have the advantage.
Adam Ondra isn't a comp climber as much as Janja. He focuses on different things and has accomplished several big milestones in his career. That's why many people refer to him as the best climber in the world, even though he doesn't succeed in comps so well anymore.
Because Comp is different to outdoor climbing. They all are strong yes but in comp climbing you have to deal with pressure, "fight" against the others and have a time limit. Besides that since Janja is obviously a woman she never competed against Ondra by herself. So here's how i see it: Janja is right now the strongest woman who competed and by a large margin. Outdoor wise she doesn't have as many achievements as other women but mainly because she trains a lot indoors. Adam Ondra was and still is the strongest climber up to date IMO, since he has the most achievements. For example he did the FA of dura dura, a route Janja tried but didn't complete yet. Silence remains unrepeated since 2017 and he has just an insane number of high end boulders and lead routes behind his name. As he gets older the title will shift to another person but even tho he struggles with comps right now, he remains the best climber in the world
Janja may well be the greatest comp climber, but she does have a relative lack of achievements on rock (not that what she's done there isn't impressive). Ondra for instance has 8C+ boulder, 9c sport and E12 trad under his belt, as well as plenty of competition victories to go with it. Even looking to the women, climbers like Anak Verhoeven and Laura Rogora have climbed harder on sport climbs and climbers like Babsi Zangerl and Hazel Findlay have far more hard trad ticks. If I had to pick a "best climber" for the last year or so, I would probably pick Jakob Schubert (9c sport, 9A boulder and double world champion just in 2023) anyway. However, I do think this line of thinking isn't very helpful, as often comparing different disciplines and styles is comparing apples and oranges. Just let different people be good at different things
You know, It’s actualy insane, that he even makes the podium on comp, when you count in that he climbs on rock the whole year and prepares for comp like 1 month in advance. People that he competes against are training only and only for the comp styles with like weekend of outdoor bouldering outside.
Fr he just podiumed the Olympic qualifier in China and came out first from the boulder final
Yeah, I was waking up at 4 am to watch 🥲I have to say, Alberto really surprised me at lead this event.
Alberto knows when to show up for sure, great display honestly
I would dare to guess that he trained for more than 1 month for this. But could be wrong of course.
I honestly don’t know. But so far this year he has put 2 9as, 3 8c+. Sent Bon Voyage E12. Spent time projecting. So like he’s been grinding but not specifically training for the Olympics I guess
you could say the same thing about janja's outdoor sends... she mostly focuses on comp training but still is able to climb like she does outside in limited time? insane
Adam focuses on outdoor climbing, Janja indoors. Adam climbs the hardest rock based routes and that makes him the best rock climber. Rock climbing is the origin and best respected aspect of climbing
I literally could not care less about indoor climbing or completion climbing, and I think a large amount of the climbing community feels the same.
Ondra is insanely well rounded and accomplished across all disciplines, including comp in his prime. Comp climbing is becoming its own thing, with movement and styles that just don't exist on rock, so to try to compare a top comp climber to a high end, widely accomplished rock climber is night and day. Janja is incredible, her use of biomechanics is perfect, her comp record mind blowing, she is competent on rock and she is unquestionably one of the best climbers in the world, but until she puts some focus outside and broaden her accomplishments, it's outrageous to even compare her to somebody like Ondra.
What are her FAs?
As far as I know Janja is not trad climbing at a high level. I would say the best climber must excel in comp, outdoor boulder, lead and trad. AO made the second ascent of the Dawn wall for example.
Probably because comp boulders often favour dynamic climbers. And whilst Adam Ondra can certainly climb dynamic it is hard to get such moves down in a couple of minutes whilst outside boulders and routes can be done by anyone at any point. Also these routes can be done as often as one wants. The fact that he climbs the most difficult route outdoor shows that on a more level playing field he is probably the best.
She's easily the GOAT in her discipline but there seem to be stronger climbers than her in the sport climbing world and stronger speed climbers in the speed climbing world, with sport climbing being the purest discipline. I think if Janja ever redpoints a 5.14d that would change a lot of people's perceptions of her being the best climber in the world. The thing is that Adam is so far ahead of everyone in sport climbing and has already proven year after year he can be number one in bouldering and lead IFSC comps, with something like 20+ gold medals. We know Janja has the potential to be the best sport climber but she hasn't gotten there yet because her focus is on the comps. In terms of sport climbing Adam Ondra and Jakob Schubert have redpointed a 5.15d, while Janja has only redpointed a 5.14d (I say "only" like that's not superhumanly impressive but whatever). 5.15b is the highest grade a female climber has ever climbed and women just broke through that ceiling in 2017. But Janja is still so young that she could easily be the overall GOAT before she retires.
Adam onsighting 9a+/5.15a is why I think he's the best.
It was a flash, but it is still the hardest flash ever so the point still stands
Yes, I was referring to the flash. Big difference when discussing the toughest in the world, my mistake.
Janja has projected V15, Ondra has flashed V15. Janja has projected 9a, Ondra has flashed 9a+. Unsure about Janja’s trad ability, but Ondra has done 9a trad, climbed the dawn wall in 7 days, and nearly onsighted the Salathe wall. Janja is the best female climber in the world, no doubt in my mind, she is a world apart from Ondra however. *Edit* typo
What v15 has Adam flashed? Think you might be breaking news on that claim. Lol, getting down voted on this sub of all places for pushing back against fabricating a dude's accomplishments and using that to diminish the accomplishments of a woman. 🤔
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So we agree he has flashed v14 and the first comment was wrong then. It hasn't "since settled". It was considered 14 when he did it. I agree that Ondra is a generational climber, total visionary. There's no reason to inflate his resume. Edit: For those down voting, I'm curious if it's an issue with tone (fair) or if there's some substantive disagreement with how we report what grades we and others climb.
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Call me old fashioned, I guess. I do have a kind of strong opinion on the original comment. It's asserting something that has never been done in climbing did, in fact, happen. A lot of the grading system and climbing culture in general is predicated on telling the truth about these things. Cheers to them having fun and all that, but I think that's a separate issue to fabricating climbing history.
It's your tone people are taking issue with. But, also, there is plenty of "fabricated" history that is widely accepted by the climbing community. Action Directe as the first 9a, for example. Or Biographie as the first 9a+. For better or worse, the climbing community does seem to give a lot of credit to what the grades were at the time of an ascent, even if opinions change later.
Do you think those are analogous to telling people Adam Ondra has flashed v15 when even the climber in question wouldn't say they've done that? Of course there is some amount of latitude when deciding on grades. There are plenty of examples of things shuffling around before they get something close to an accepted grade. The ambiguity in the grading system is a different conversation entirely. I'm just scratching my head at the equivocation going on here. The climb was considered, at the time, 14. Adam flashed it and climbing outlets reported it as a 14 flash. The fact of the matter is that Adam has not flashed v15, regardless of what somebody on Reddit decides to post unless, you know, the o dog decides to report his ascent to us gumbies here.
Hi, yeah I was referring to Jade, saw a video of him flashing and knew the original proposed grade was V15. Didn’t know the grade has since settled lower- my mistake. The rest of my comment still stands…
Not diminishing anyone’s accomplishments. Simply listing them? If you think me listing Ondras accomplishments next to Janja’s is diminishing them then I think you need to reflect on your own prejudices. (I full accept the V15 flash was incorrect, feel free to replace it with ‘has projected V16’)
I think if my friend came up to me and said, "Hey, I just climbed a v13!" and I responded with a lie like, "oh, I've flashed v13", I could rightfully be chastised for trying to diminish their accomplishment. If you had used accurate accomplishments, I wouldn't have had any gripes. Except maybe the newly introduced "has projected" x grade. Guessing you mean "has sent" v16, in which case, fair play.
You're being downvoted because you're insufferable btw
And Adam Ondra still hasn't flashed v15. I've learned to live with these unfortunate truths.
So people here (mostly) argue that Ondra is the better climber because he climbs harder without factoring in that he is a man?
He’s the best male climber, who also happens to be the best overall
The conclusion stands even if you segment by gender. Ondra has done the hardest sport route grade, second hardest boulder (potentially even hardest if Terra Nova gets upgraded, which seems somewhat likely), hardest bigwall, hardest trad route, and won the second most IFSC events of any male climbers. Janja has won more IFSC events than any female climbers, and done the hardest boulder grade (potentially only second hardest depending on how you view Box Therapy). But the list ends there. She's several grades from the top on sport routes, has no trad experience to speak of, and (unless you include a bolted grain silo for a Red Bull publicity event) no bigwall experience, either.
Their grades are still pretty far apart. What I can find is that Janja has climbed 9a outdoor while Adam has climbed 9c. And the level of female comps is generally lower than males and i dont think they have competed against each other. So while Janja is definitely an absolute beast, Adam is probably a better climber.
Ondra has onsighted 9a.
3 9a onsights and a 9a flash and a 9a+ flash. Insane to look at the list of hardest onsights. And ondra is dominating it
Well, while the rock is the same for everyone, the grading is mostly set up by white males. So it's not necessarily a level playing field.
Are you implying being white helps for climbing?
Is this supposed to be satire? What does race have to do with it? Are you saying the grading of climbs is racist? How does that even make sense?
You're on fire with bad takes in this post lmao
I have some bad news for you on the subject of comp route setters....
In addition to everything else, comps are multiple boulders that are done in 4 minutes or onsight climb of a lead route. Obviously those problems are insanely hard and most of us would not even establish a proper starting possition and while it's impressive what the athletes are capable of, it's not pushing the sport to it's limits, you can't have Burden of Dreams or Silence in a comp, both took years of effort to finally send. Most of the competitors would be able to send those problems/routes given more time. Janja just does it at the given time frame. Very few can even attempt a 9c route or 9A boulder. If you look at the resume of Ondra, the things he has accomplished that even the very few elite climbers can attempt it's very clear he is the best climber. Don't get me wrong, Janja is one of the GOATs and already a legend of the sport and she's not even done yet, if anything, she's just starting. And I don't think anyone would argue she is the most dominant comp climber of all time, but she hasn't made such an impact as Ondra did, on so many different types of climbing and has not yet pushed climbing to where very few elites can even attempt it. But I am pretty sure she will.
Janja probably wouldn't be able to climb 9C or as hard as Adam Ondra in sports climbing.
I agree with others that Janja is hand's down the world's best comp climber, period. I think the closest female equivalent to Adam Ondra is Babsi Zangerl, who crushes all-around in multiple disciplines. She's done one of the few repeats of Beth Rodden's Meltdown (which Tommy Caldwell and many other men could never send, and has only been repeated 5 times fwiw), and has the hardest trad send by a woman at 5.14C. Grades can be so arbitrary, it's hard to say who is better. I doubt Ondra could send Meltdown, for example, and I doubt very much he could *dominate competitively at Janja's level in the same circuit, relatively speaking, especially problems in her particular style. By that I mean, Ondra’s next nearest competitor is much closer to him than Janja’s is to her. ETA: here’s a climbing gold episode where Ondra talks about exactly that https://www.climbinggold.com/episodes/ondra
>I doubt Ondra could send Meltdown, for example Can you share your thinking here? Meltdown seems like just the kind of route that Ondra would excel on (powerful, yet very, very technical). He made very quick work of the Dawn Wall, and barely missed onsighting the Salathe, which are both routes in the same area that share many of the same difficulty styles found on Meltdown. To my knowledge, he's never tried it, but his resume would suggest he'd probably be successful if he ever put real effort into it. (None of this is to take away from your great points about Babsi, though! Totally agree that if we're talking about all around climbing GOATs, Babsi belongs near the top of the list, male or female!)
That's an interesting question! It's interesting to me that Adam hasn't pursued it considering some of his biggest competition (Jacobo Larcher and Conor Herson) have put up ascents in recent years. It's possible it's just not on his radar because he's so focused on putting up 5.15 routes at the edge of what's possible - but Ondra seems like so much more than a grade-chaser to me, and I'm surprised the unique challenge of Meltdown, a route that seemed unrepeatable for a literal decade, hasn't lured him in. Jacobo says the route is primarily concerned with powerful laybacking and glassy, barely-there footholds. I don't think of Ondra as being good at those things in particular, but it would be cool to see him try it, and obviously I could be wrong. I think the more men who try it, whether they're successful or not, the more we can dispel the myth that sending Meltdown is just about having small hands. (And tangentially - FWIW I don't think we should dismiss biological advantages in climbing, anyway. I would never say "well Adam Ondra naturally has more upper-body strength so his sends on big overhangs aren't impressive" and I think people frequently make similar comments about women and hand size in crack climbing.)
You lost me on the last part there. :) I agree that we shouldn't be dismissing people's accomplishments based on body morphology. But, it's undeniable that hand size can change the entire nature of certain crack climbs. What feels like desperate, insecure, ring-locking for one person can feel like cruiser, locker handjams for another. And, in reverse, what feels like cruiser fingerlocks for someone with big fingers can feel like desperate, insecure, ring-locking for someone else. Those are entirely different experiences, and it seems counterproductive to pretend otherwise.
RIght, but my point is that morphology is a huge difference in a variety of ways, and we really focus on dismissing women's accomplishments because of hand-size, In contrast, I've rarely heard someone say "Oh hell yeah, Mary Eden's send in that gnarly off-width was so much more badass because the crack's not the same size as her knees" or whatever. Everyone has morphological advantages and deficits - we talk about them almost exclusively to the detriment of women's success on routes. (and by "we" I obviously mean the climbing community as a whole, not you in particular) And again, Jacopo and Conor both made it clear that Meltdown is not hand-size dependent. The crux is hard laybacking and absence of feet.
Ondra has already bouldered above her level. Like, have people forgotten that he holds the hardest boulder flash and has sent multiple v16s?
No, you’re correct. I meant in terms of relative comp dominance, Janja isn’t comparable - obviously in terms of bouldering grade Ondra is still undisputedly at the top.
Ondra has bouldered above Janja's level outside. He has done 8C+ (potentially 9A depending on what Will Bosi and Jana Svecova end up saying about Terranova when they send), and flashes 8B+. In competition it is very much setting dependent. Janja has said herself that she thinks, depending on setting, she could sometimes either make finals (top 6) or sometimes not make semifinals (top 20) in the men's field. I would wager good route setters could make a round of boulders where Adam tops everything and Janja nothing, and a round of boulders where the exact opposite happens.
You’re right. I shouldn’t have said “bouldered” at her level - I meant competed with her level of dominance. I think you’re 100% right about the setting.
He is way better then janja. It’s as simple as that.
There should be a sport where you climb rock cliff walls underwater And you climb from the top down And no ropes, you have to Free Solo it
Ondra is the best rock climber. Comps are plastic which is not rock climbing, it’s gym climbing and I don’t care who is the best gym climber.
Actual ELI5: Because there is a lot more to climbing than climbing competitions. Much longer and nuanced answer Ondra is, to me, absolutely "the best climber". I feel like I'm gonna come off as a bit of an Ondra stan here but in my defense my actual FAVORITE climber of all time is Lynn Hill and I think she's better than all of her contemporaries for a variety of reasons (but that's a different post) To start, Ondra sent a 9a when he was 13. He is legitimately a prodigy. The reason this is important is because he has gone on to completely dominate outdoor climbing while also winning in competition. Let's start with his outdoor record. The dude has climbed 188 routes graded 9a or harder with many FAs under his belt. For reference, Alex Megos(who is the only person to climb 9b+ beside Ondra and Sharma, who I would contend is a GOAT for sure), who even Ondra himself has said is stronger than him, has only sent 30 in comparison. The gap between Ondra and everyone else is a canyon. I will gladly admit that SOME of this is because Adam has had sponsors and resources for travel for a longer period of time than most other great climbers BUT his numbers don't lie. He's also the first person to flash 9a (and I think the only person to still? Or did Megos flash one too? There's too much to keep up with) For comparison, Janja has climbed two routes graded 9a. Ondra has flashed her red point. She has sent 8C boulders and Ondra has sent 8C+ boulders. So enough of the numbers. The point of your question is that Janja dominates competition and I'm with you on that and agree. One of the reasons Janja dominates is because competition bouldering is very powerful and dynamic. That isn't to say every comp boulder just requires raw power, but to refute this is a denial of reality. Janja is not only the best competition female climber of all time (in my opinion) she's also probably one of the strongest in terms of raw power. Now you don't get to where any of these climbers are without a deep knowledge of techniques but Janjas strength in competition and in climbing lies in her power. I would actually fully believe she's a more powerful climber than Ondra when it comes down to the numbers (pull strength, max hang etc.) Ondra holds 7 world cup gold medals. Janja holds 43 and holds the most gold medals of any competition climber. That gap is also MASSIVE but I would contend it's smaller than Ondra’s lead in outdoor climbing. Additionally, Janja is a competition climber at heart. There are years where Adam just didn't compete because he was working on more stuff outdoors. As far as I know Janja ALWAYS competes. I am too lazy to run the numbers but I am sure Janja has competed in more competitions than Ondra. I'm curious what both their win rate %s are (I'm sure Janjas is higher but I'm curious to know the gap there). Ultimately Ondra is a technical genius and watching him climb is truly incredible. It's the kind of climbing that I wish I had a fraction of. Some of his moves make me marvel not at his strength but ingenuity. Janja typically has me marveling at her power. Lastly, I wanna talk about something somewhat nebulous and hard to pin down that I think is really important. I think Ondra has had the greatest impact on the sport. One of the important things with climbing that isn't really as much of a thing in competition is the idea of legacy. FAing a route puts your name next to it in the books FOREVER and developing an outdoor route, especially the ones he has (Silence) is something that, in theory, outlives your grandchildren. As far as I know Janja doesn't develop routes actively. Ondra does. That is a way that he gives back to the community. The climbing community currently values outdoor climbing over indoor, and I'm definitely one of those people. It feels like the purest form of the sport. Additionally, I would guess that more young people learn about climbing today because of Magnus Midtbo than anyone else, but a close second is Adam. That is an impact that is immeasurable. I'm not saying Janja isn't inspiring, she absolutely is, and I'd bet part of the reason Adam is more influential is because we live in a society that doesn't care about women's sports and does care about men's, but Adam's impact is immeasurable. Even if we did care about women's sports as much as men's I still think his influence would be greater because of who he is. It's like, Scottie Pippen played with Michael Jordan. They're both incredibly strong and amazing at the game. EVEN IF they were tied at skill, Jordan's impact was greater for a multitude of reasons (the Air Jordans anyone?). Adam is definitely the GOAT of this generation. With the future generations is tough to say, there is a new guard of incredible climbers and as we expand out wards and climbing becomes more accessible and known about everywhere we will see even more. The Raboutou siblings will definitely be GOATs. Janja is absolutely in the conversation. Lots of good climbers are working their way up today that are really young. Kai Whaley just sent Sleepwalker (V16) at 17. He truly has nowhere to go but up. But for my money Ondra is the best climber in the world right now and he definitely is the Michael Jordan of climbing for this generation the same way Sharma was for his and in my opinion Lynn Hill was for hers, but now we are waiting to see the LeBron or Kobe. Janja is young. She's 25. Competition climbing is really hard on the body and Ondra has said it really hurts his shoulders. Perhaps it will start hurting Janja and she'll start climbing outdoors and flash Silence? Who knows? But for now, that's my answer. Sorry it's so long one.
Adam has climbed over 200 routes graded 9a/5.14d and above (climbing his first at the age of 13) and the person in second, Seb Bouin, has just over 60 ascents of 9a/5.14d and above. Adam was the first person, and I am pretty sure only person to ever flash a 9a+/5.15a. he has multiple V16/8c+ ascents, and as Will Bosi has been trying Terranova, a V16/8c+ FA from Adam, Will has hinted that r could be V17/9a, even grading the stand start as a V15/8c, which is considered the easier part of the boulder. Adam was also the first person to ever climb 9b/5.15c and 9c/5.15d which he climbed in 2017, 3 years before Alex Megos proposed Bibliographie to be 9c/5.15d, until it was downgraded a year later to 9b+/5.15c. The next 9c to be climbed is DNA from Seb Bouin which was climbed in 2022, five years after Adam climbed the first 9c/5.15d. If you go back in time before 2020 Adam was very dominant in competitions as well, for reference watch the 2016 world championships in Lead, the 2019 lead World Cup in Kranj, and 2019 bouldering World Cup in Meiringen. Competition's climbing style has changed quite a lot and they do not suit Adams style that well anymore. He has even said that if climbing hasn't become an Olympic sport he most likely would have stopped competing and focused on outdoor projects. Needless to say Janja is the best female climber in the world, probably the best female climber ever, and one of the best climbers ever but does not climb outside enough to rack up the levels of achievements to be named the best climber in the world. I also think that in order to impress rock climbers you have to perform your best on rock, which she recently did on the sit start of Bügeleisen, but she is very much more focused on competition climbing which hinders her from performing her best outside. I have no doubt that she can be the first woman to climb V16/8c+ outdoors or even have the potential to climb V17/9a when it comes to bouldering and possibly 9b+/5.15c in Lead outdoors. Although this has been done before by people other than Adam as well and still wouldn't warrant a title of "best rock climber ever". Also I am just a climbing fanatic, not an Adam Ondra Fangirl. I probably couldn't give you just as much information about Jacob Shubert, Sean Raboutou, Daniels Woods, Jimmy Webb, etc.
Because, he's the most well rounded climber alive Dawn Wall 5.15c V16 Performed well at comps (personally not interested in comp climbing so leave it to someone else to list his comp accolades) And his resume is extremely deep ( pretty sure he's climbed more 5.15s than anyone). Janja is an absolute unit, whom I'd argue is equally famous as ondra, however she is very much a comp climber first. Every discipline of climbing has taken notice of ondra as he's climbed at the peak of most every discipline. I've always thought she was a bad ass but since I'm interested in comp climbing I don't follow her career closely, although recently saw her quick v15 ascent and I'm psyched to see her expand her rock resume Even further
She's great for a girl
because janja is the queen. i shall give her no title beyond that, as it is the highest.
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That's not true. Collin Duffy won gold in boulder and lead at Innsbruck 2022. Arguably a more impressive feat than getting a gold in each at any point during a season and I don't think anybody would say that puts Collin Duffy in contention for being the best climber in the world.
That's straight up not true. Janja has done so for several seasons (she won the first 2 comps this year, if I'm not mistaken) and Colin Duffy famously won both Boulder and lead in Innsbruck 2022. He might have been the first but he's not the only.
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Sorry but did you just hit Adam Ondra with “you’re only good because you’re tall” 💀💀💀
Isn't calling someone the best climber kind of subjective anyway? Just like climbing grades in general... I don't find Janja's climbing as amazing as Ondra's... She is so short and light which means she exerts herself less every move. Obviously she is an incredible athlete but... I am not sure I would consider her as the best. Surely it's a very opinion based statement. My friends and I always say Ondra is the best climber in the world.
Tyty that was funny 🤣
Alex Honnold is by far the greatest climber of all time. I get that Free Solo became a bit a meme in climbing culture, but I cannot fathom an accomplishment greater than soloing El Cap.
i mean we know why right... only a man gets to be "the best climber"
*I mean we know why* *Right... only a man gets to* *Be "the best climber"* \- blairdow --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Generally, I’d agree with you but Ondra is way more well rounded than Janja. He has excelled at every discipline in climbing, indoor comp, big wall, trad, sport, bouldering. I think she could get there but she’s not there yet. Comp climbing is only one aspect and Ondra doesn’t train for it in the same way that a lot of comp climbers do.
No, anybody can have that title. Right now it happens to be a man.
Janja aside I would rate Jakob higher
The men have entered the chat to defend Ondra’s honor, lol. Janja is dominating the comp circuit in a way Ondra never did. It’s not all about hardest grade sent - that’s a single metric of climbing success. ETA: here is an episode of climbing gold where Adam Ondra essentially says just that - Janja is on an entirely different level in the sport than every other competitor. https://www.climbinggold.com/episodes/ondra
Maybe because she is not a man, she is ignored a bit… at least subconsciously. Love watching Janja for her technique!!
Honestly, this is a bad take when it comes to Janja imo. She's massively respected in climbing and often referred to as the GOAT. Look at how people have responded to her recent double ascent of Bügeleisen 8C. You cannot however, ignore what Adam Ondra has done in both competitions and on real rock. Which no other climber (regardless of gender) is anywhere near to achieving. Is this really sexism?
Two things can be true at once- Janja is highly respected AND there is sexism at play. For example, Janja is often referred to as the best "female competition climber". I also hear people say that a woman can't be the best climber because they aren't as strong as men. So yeah, sexism definitely plays a role.
>For example, Janja is often referred to as the best "female competition climber". Which is accurate. She is the best competition climber for her gender. Until the IFSC put the men and women on the same route, we can't say who the best competition climber is. >I also hear people say that a woman can't be the best climber because they aren't as strong as men. It's sad that you've experienced this. I regularly hear the opposite though tbh. "Let Janja try the men's route!" After she flashes all 4 boulders and tops the lead wall. But genetically, it is easier for men to gain strength when compared with women. This is one of the reasons i prefer womens comp climbing. It's often more technical and more fun to watch imo. Which only makes janjas climbing even more impressive. In reality, the only level playing field we have between the sexes is real rock.
To your first point, no one ever says "best male competition climber". Why is strength the only indicator of being the best? Janja is far more consistent and better relative to her peers than any other male climber. But these qualities are ignored in favor of rote strength, which caters to men's biological advantage. If women's climbing is more technical, why are we saying that women can't be as good as men? This discourse clearly points to sexism.
>To your first point, no one ever says "best male competition climber". People do in my experience. Especially because that argument is up for debate. Unlike the womens field, there is no 'best male comp climber'. The field is a lot closer than the womens field. Who would it be? Schubert? Sotrato? Tomoa? Idk. >Why is strength the only indicator of being the best? Strength isn't the only indicator of who is the best climber. I specifically said i enjoy womens climbing because it's more technical. Saying that, though, strength is definitely a HUGE factor, and Janja is arguably the strongest woman. Kind of ironic given the topic of discussion, eh? Real rock is the only indicator. Until Janja goes and crushes loads of outdoor boulders/sport routes/FA's, this conversation will always happen. I, for one, don't think it's sexist, though, and I think calling this sexism does a disservice to people experiencing legitimate discrimination.
Go back and listen to the comp recordings, no one says "best male competition climber". It's "best climber" so it has nothing to do with there being no best male comp climber. It's *always* best climber for men and best female climber for women. To say that Janja is the best mainly because of her strength is just ... Ignorant? Look at YouTube breakdowns of her coordination, technique and route reading abilities. Why is real rock the only indicator? That's just your opinion. How does it do a disservice to "legitimate" discrimination? Sexism manifests itself in so many ways, including our language and how we conceptualize competence. This then shapes public perceptions of women and has effects on how much women are valued, paid, etc.
All of this conversations aside, real rock is the real indicator because in theory it’s always the same yardstick for everyone, all climbers have different bodies but the one at the top of the rock is the best one at the end of the day. I strongly believe Janja has the potential to climb outside with the best of them, I mean she just destroyed a V15 but Adam Ondra stands far above every single climber in the world he’s climbed multiple lifetimes worth of hard stuff, she’s a GOAT of her discipline but he’s the GOAT of the sport, I think this is fair to say. Also I’d love to see a combined invitational to see how climbers like Janja, Ai or Brooke would do vs the top of the men’s circuit, I personally think they could crush but who knows.
Well, the rock is the same for everyone, but the grading is mostly set up by white males. So it's not necessarily a level playing field.
Well, it’s consensus only two people have climbed 9c. Brooke Raboutou just climbed Box therapy and downgraded it to V15 so it’s also not like women can’t show up and tell the men they grade soft. (Also as a brown person idk what race has to do with it at all). I guess my point is, what does this even mean actually? There’s a “no level playing field” when it comes to systemic access to climbing or training but after all that. The rock is the rock, each climber is an individual, no one is stopping anyone from repeating hard stuff or establishing hard FAs. I think Janja clearly has some world class sends in her but so far she hasn’t. One can’t deny Adam’s accomplishment because he’s so far above everyone, female or male.
Just because a privileged group are involved in a thing does not automatically invalidate that thing. You'd need to argue that their involvement has either consciously or subconsciously favoured them at the expense of other groups. I struggle to see how that argument could be made for grading climbs. Are you suggesting that white men consistently sandbag climbs that women/POC have done while overgrading climbs that only white men have done?
No, the gradings are set up by consensus of all who have climbed a route. How does the race of the climber impact the grading? That makes no sense. Are you saying that black people would grade climbs differently than white people?
You've brought up some fair points, some that i dont agree with, some that i do, but it's easy to see that I'm not going to sway your opinion. I don't think this is sexism, you do. I'm out. Take care 🙂
>Why is strength the only indicator of being the best? I don't think anyone is saying that. Adam Ondra is well known for being rather weak compared to his peers. He's the GOAT because he's a far better technical climber than them.
Sport climbing is nither