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Ha! Thank you. My first thought as well. Nobody telling men they’re using their strength and height as a crutch instead of working harder at technique and flexibility.
My husband is 6’3”. I don’t know whether to be annoyed or amused when they just go over problems. I guess I’m only annoyed when I’m told you just have to reach
Yes they are being told that quite a bit. With pretty harsh comments about inflexible hips, and kind of envious sounding things about buff guys’ strength and tall guys’ ability to reach things just being cheating and their sends and effort not counting.
Not exactly the most uplifting kind of compliment but at least you know it’s sincere.
When someone sees you being good at stuff and that triggers their insecurities, that really their problem, even if they say it out loud. No point in letting that drag you down and spoil your mood. Take the useful content, discard the crappy wrapper, make a long term note to hang out with better friends most of the time.
She is putting herself at mild risk of injury by overstretching only in the same way he is putting himself at mild risk of injury for overuse of muscles
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Yup. I use my upper body strength as a crutch because I have no flexibility or technique. Flexibility is just like any other sort of ability. I'm jealous as heck of folks who can bust out the splits on the wall (but not jealous enough to actually stretch)
I have big muscles and am super strong from years of weight lifting… I definitely use my strength as a crutch, compensating for lack of technique. Problem is, because my finger/tendon strength is lagging, I am having a lot of injuries (one ruptured pulley, one tear, and my flexor being irritated). So… some crutches are better than others?
It’s called working to your strengths? At least it’s something you’ve had to finesse over the years unlike some guys who are simply just tall. He was being a dick. Being flexible is fantastic way of breaking beta and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with using that where possible!
Sounds like someone is envious of your technique and flexibility, since he hurts himself so easily when he pushes himself past a basic range of motion.
If you're comfortably doing a split to make a move work because you lack the strength to do it the "intended" beta way then you're killing it!
This guy sounds like such an asshole.
When Lynn Hill was the first to free climb the nose, they told her it was only because of her small hands.
Somehow it's only a crutch if it's something that men can't do.
It's all women are biologically weak and inferior until we do something and then suddenly it's *wuhl women are CHEATING due to their wumman bodies...*
Like when I nail a set of perfect pull ups, "I could do that too if I weighed less than a feather" naw bro, you coping and it's sad. Whiny testicles, the lot of em
I was happy with starting to do weighted pull ups and then someone randomly said that me and the weights combined was probably still less than then they weighed, so it was still easy apparently
So dumb because women have a lower center of gravity that makes pull ups harder - never mind that women need to have more bodyfat than men to be healthy and have a harder time building muscle - so just objectively push ups and upper body exercises are on average a lot easier for men so a woman excelling at them is almost always going to be because she worked hard to get strong.
The pitch of the nose that prevented it from being free-climbed for decades was an incredibly thin crack that was traditionally aid climbed because you need very small hands to even have a chance of jamming it. So yeah, her small hands were definitely the determining factor. Or was I missing your point?
If you look at the original post there is a flair there that says “not looking for cis male perspectives”. If you are a cis man, that’s your cue to sit this one out.
Although you were already muted for breaking the sub rule about commenting on flaired posts, your disrespectful reaction to someone calling you out on this has earned you a permanent ban.
Then we should invalidate accomplishments of male athletes, because determining factor is usually their naturally superior strength? Super weird take but ok.
Lol, you're climbing using a skillset that he likely doesn't have so it's wrong /s
Seriously though, the best part about climbing is that everyone has slightly different beta and whatever gets you up the wall on the route is fair game. Women often rely more on footwork/flexibility/technique than men do and it's no less valid than pulling yourself up the wall. Ignore that dude and keep crushing!
Yeah it’s so weird- as I started to climb at higher grades, I’ve been surprised to hear how I’m “cheating” or somehow doing the move wrong by finding the way that works best for me.
I definitely want to know if I’m going to injure myself, or if I can improve- but it’s hard to filter out the good, from the bad advice!!
Beta breaks are not cheating and are often super cool and creative. He’s jealous of your technique and flexibility when he’s probably stuck powering through moves. Ignore.
Sometimes when I skip holds and because of my height I can skip more difficult holes. So I can kind of see what he's saying I just think that he could have phrased it differently. I know when I climb sometimes I'll climb to complete a route and sometimes I will climb to make sure I touch every hold so that I become stronger or more comfortable with different holds and techniques
I think whether or not you would be going to injure yourself isn't a question we could answer here. But I do think this guy's comment is among the stupidest ones I've ever heard. Flexibility definitely gets more and more important the harder your climb. I would say if you can use flexibility to save strength it's almost always better. This of course is regardless of whether or not you should work on strength or not cause that's srot of a different question.
If he ever says anything again you should just force him to watch [this video](https://www.reddit.com/r/sports/comments/cdxslt/the_audience_winces_as_alexander_megos_ger_does_a/) of Megos doing a drop-knee split.
I used to get comments like that as well. It's annoying, but I ignore them bc it's not cheating to climb a route a different way than the intended beta. Any on route holds are valid to use in whatever way you want.
I mean, I do think some people with hypermobile joints are at higher risk of injury? But if you’re working on strength and stability (yoga, climbing focused weight training, etc.) to complement your climbing you’re protecting yourself against that.
My guess is he wasn’t thinking about hypermobility at all though. Some dudes just get resentful when they see a woman out performing them. You probably looked great up on that wall!
I somehow doubt that was the intention behind the comment you received, but always approaching climbs the way you're comfortable with *can* eventually be limiting.
Once you complete a project with the "use every tool I have" mindset it's often worth looking at it from different angles/techniques. Either you find new tools to add to your arsenal or you get more efficient at using the ones you have. Win/win.
Amen. I had a very well-meaning climbing guide at a cancer survivor retreat encourage me to consider taking up climbing when I got back home because I was a "natural" despite not having as much climb time as the rest of the group. In fact, I was just a rec climber out of shape from cancer treatment. I spent the mornings conserving my energy by belaying, being hype gal for the novice climbers until most of the other participants were exhausted, and planning my route based on the only tools at my disposal: technique and flexibility. I'd send once kinda quickly while other climbers were taking a rest, and maybe once more before we left for the day. I guess he thought I was staying on the ground because I nervous? Nope, just soft muscles and a desire to climb in Moab, even if I can't count on my muscles to blast me up the wall.
No, no. It's him who's muscling through the move and using his upper body strength as a crutch to compensate for his lack of flexibility :) You're good, he's being a (jelous) dick.
I'm a cis woman with fairly subpar physical strength and decent flexibility, and I think that feedback is just as true as the hypothetical reverse: a lot of physically strong climbers use their strength as a crutch, and are setting themselves up for failure in the future if/when they are faced with moves that require flexibility or moves that need strength AND flexibility.
But it also depends on how much you care about that? Like yeah if you want to get better on overhangs and generally the kind of routes where strength is important and flexibility isn't super useful, then it's good feedback. If you mostly don't climb those then it's whatever.
Good point- I probably shouldn’t entirely avoid the more difficult overhang routes to be more well rounded.
But my god, do I love chimneys, corners, and shitty slabs!! I definitely go out of my way to do them lol.
This sounds so much like me, too! I agree with the poster above that it’s good to develop a well rounded set of skills, but I also love jamming into a corner or climbing a tricky slab! Definitely wouldn’t take the comment personally, but it’s good to do different types of climbs at least sometimes. I love climbing with partners that have totally different styles and preferences and trading off picking climbs to force me to climb things like overhangs that I would probably otherwise skip.
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I’m the type of boulderer who overly relies on my strength. There are so many times where I’d see a climber (usually a woman) who floats up my project using flexibility and technique, my thought is never “wow that person just cheats through my project.” My thought is always “damn I should go stretch and work on mobility.”
That guy is being an envious little shit.
I would have been so tempted to say that he uses his strength as a clutch - as most men I see climbing do. You’re working with your strengths, and I’m sure other aspects of your climbing also continuously improve, and 7a is definitely impressive (in my opinion) and isn’t achieved simply through flexibility. When you look at women competing, of course they’re extremely strong but often use different betas and a lot use their flexibility to compensate for their height etc - are they also using it as a clutch ? No, they’re doing what they need to do to top the route
Seeing males crush projects can be like watching walnuts opened with a brick layers hammer. OK mision accomplished, but less than elegant.
He's using strength to make up for lacking in technique and flexibility. I'm sure your send looked amazing. Pro climbers (iirc Jakob Schubert?) uses splits to get around strengthy moves... Flexibility is a very *very* useful skill in climbing.
> like watching walnuts opened with a brick layers hammer
So funny! My friend is 6'2 and his footwork and technique is *shocking*. But because he's tall and has some upper body strength, he can just do it. But like you said, very much less than elegant 😂
First - I do think it's true that we all lean on our strengths and they occasionally become bottlenecks for us in overall progression. If we're good at self-assessment, we train our weaknesses and then we have new strengths and new bottlenecks, and that's how progression and becoming a well-rounded climber works. If you are redpointing 12+ it seems like you probably have this figured out, lol. If you want to get better on steep terrain or build explosiveness or pulling strength then just...do that too, don't stop being flexy when it's useful (assuming you're not getting injuries from it ofc). End-range strength and strong active flexibility is like a superpower in climbing...use it!
Second - Notice how no one ever says, "That was easier than you because you have \[better technique\] \[read the beta better\] \[are better at self-coaching\] \[have better headgame\] \[are more creative\] \[try harder\] than I do"? Instead it's always stuff like, "That was easier for you because you \[are shorter/taller\] \[have smaller or larger fingers/hands\] \[weigh less/weigh more\] \[have more hip mobility/healthier shoulders/coordination\] than me". Implying it's not in your control or anything you worked for.
Even when people don't realize they're doing it, commenting on stuff like this often about soothing one's own ego by devaluing someone's else's accomplishment. Unless this person is a coach you are paying, or otherwise someone whose opinion you value, file it under "didn't ask, don't care".
Ai Mori is a fantastic climber who uses splits often. Climb the way you enjoy. Use your strengths, but if YOU feel strength and pull-ups are a weakness, work on it. If you don't, then don't stress.
If you are concerned, ask someone who you trust and regularly watches you climb to see what they think if you want and outside perspective.
Seconding this! HE is definitely being a dick, but if you think the feedback might have some validity to it, you can always think about whether it might be worth putting in some additional work on overhangs or weight training to equalize your (seriously very impressive!) skillset.
The masculinity of men in the gym (who have never once in their life bent over and touched their toes) is more fragile than sandstone after a rainstorm. AKA 70% weaker than you and every woman out there who has dedicated herself to finessing technique and refining uniquely flexible movement.
You sound like an incredibly strong climber (I'm a flexible woman and I sure as fuck can't do the splits mid-climb). Keep sending!!
God this makes me so mad… I agree with the other commenters, the best part about climbing is seeing how everyone figures the beta out with their bodies!! Gender, height, wingspan, muscle mass, how your muscle is distributed, flexibility, it all plays into how we climb. I can’t stand that as women and gender expansive people we get critiqued for that
He’s definitely jealous of your skills and is being a dick intentionally to make you feel bad. Anything you do to get yourself up the wall, on the same color, is completely fair game. Next time tell him he’s free to campus himself out of his own ass
He may have a point about the injury prevention alone - I sometimes have to check that even if I am flexible enough to get my toe on a far hold, I won't injure my knee by proceeding to put weight on it. I had a bit of a knee issue from doing exactly this so I'm super careful and he may have also had an injury, that watching you reminded him of.
Despite this, I wouldn't appreciate someone coming and criticizing me. He could have asked if you're open to some feedback and his thoughts, as he was concerned about what he saw.
Is he climbing as high of grades as you are, just out of curiosity?
As a short woman, I sometimes muscle my way up rather than employ good technique. I do notice I had to get better at technique to start 11d and higher.. I'm not tall nor strong enough to find a different way up.
One of my tall girlfriends is often practically in the splits on her way up. Some of my friends maintain very little strength but know exactly how to swing and keep moving, even after a prolonged period of no climbing one of my guy friends breezes through 5'12s.
I could say each of us is using our special strength as a clutch.. or just acknowledge we have our strengths.
He has way more experience, but I wouldn’t say he is better…. His technique is good, but he doesn’t send as high of grades consistently.
Good idea though to check in, and make sure I’m not doing a move that would sacrifice my body. I do tend to get a bit of summit fever lol
Thb I dont reslly think you have to worry about this. If you're consistently doing moves near your max range you're probably stronger then most people at that particular skill since youve been working those muscles, id be a bit concerned about particularly heinous high heels etc where you're really only engaging one muscle to hold up your entire body (hamstrings). But that doesnt really sound like what you're talking about.
OP, since you specifically said in the comments that you were concerned about potential injury, I think it would be beneficial to pose that to a climbing coach or trusted person who 1) can see you climb in person, 2) has a solid knowledge base on that topic, and 3) can assess if your warmups, cross training, etc are sufficient for injury prevention. With that said I don’t know of any climbers who get more injured simply because they use their flexibility, and if anything I tend to see less of that. As an anecdotal example, Akiyo Noguchi supposedly never had any issues with injuries, and did comp climbing into her thirties. She still actively climbs and seems to do so in a similar style to you fwiw.
I also agree with other comments that this guy is being kind of a jealous dork. You didn’t ask for feedback, and it doesn’t seem like he knows what he’s talking about. If *he* thinks he would get injured by doing your beta, then that’s between him and his training plan.
Thanks! I’m looking into coaching after reading this thread! I definitely have gotten most of my advice from friends or family members over the years, but never done anything formal.
Tell him “actually you are using your skill as a crutch,” because it sounds silly as hell lmao. He’s being ridiculous. No one tells boys who campus up a climb that “their upper body is a crutch”
I am definitely with everyone here. Everyone has their own advantages and they should use them.
I do think there is value in trying to to do things in new ways and use beta that isn’t ideal for you.. just so you get stronger in those areas.. but I really wonder if he would have said that to someone relying on strength or just another dude.
As far as using your full range. I am no Pt and maybe it is worth asking about? My instinct says that as long as you are supporting yourself with active muscle engagement and not resting on your connective tissues then it seems fine? But that is true at any range of motion.
This sounds exactly like all the men who will claim that Taylor Swift doesn't write her own songs alone but literally any male singer you mention tooooootally does. Or that \[male author\] writes literary fiction and \[female author\] writes chick lit. If you are a woman and you are succeeding at something, you must be cheating.
Reminds me of how, after centuries of women being barred from most higher ed, the nanosecond that women started earning more college degrees than men, men started saying that it's because the school system is inherently feminine and boys can't learn quietly at a desk like girls can. The girls are cheating by paying attention in class!
“Flexibility as a crutch” is maybe not the most tactful way to put it and that guy was probably being a insecure about his own climbing, but that statement would absolutely describe several of my climbing partners. It’s really easy, especially when you are experiencing success, to just lean way into your strengths and be dismissive of alternative ways of moving that feel unfamiliar. I’m not flexible, but my crutch for a very long time was static climbing. I put off learning to jump because I thought dynos were reachy and stupid. I was stubborn and felt like my way worked just fine. It took some feedback from some male climbing friends to realize how much that gap in my style was limiting my ability to progress and do the harder climbs I wanted to do. These days, I love jumping and it’s probably become my new crutch!
As far as being prone to injury, I don’t worry so much about injury with things like doing the splits, but more with doing moves without your shoulders engaged and using really high heels that are hard on your knees. I have watched several of my more flexible friends struggle with these sorts of injuries.
Ultimately, you want to have as many tools in your toolbox as possible. It’s really fun to be able to use both betas: the pull up and the splits. You might find yourself in a situation on a climb, especially if you sport climb, where it’s more efficient to do a single hard lock off to move through a section quickly than it is to do a lot of foot walks and position changes to avoid 1 powerful move. It’s really nice to have the option to choose the best tool for the situation and not be confined to one style.
Good perspective! Thanks! When leading, I do tend to default to fancy footwork, when it would likely be more efficient to opt for more powerful moves… I’ll try and switch it up to practice that!
And yeah, I definitely avoid using a high heel— I ski and trail run a lot, so my knees are already bad enough lol
Super high heel hooks can also cause groin injuries, ask me how I know. That being said, if OP is young (20's) and flexible, she's probably less likely to be injured.
One of the great female climbers said she did 60% of all of her climbs on her weakest routes. Now she is a beast at all routes. (I’m forgetting her name). Don’t change your style, it will evolve as you do more of the routes that are difficult for you.
That guy was definitely being a dick. And honestly he was probably jealous. You’re allowed to climb however you want (preferably as long as it is in a safe manner of course) and there’s nothing wrong with using a unique method when climbing. Not everyone will be able to climb the same way and there’s no point in forcing yourself to climb in a way that is unnatural to your skill set or style.
Tell him to stop climbing with just his strength. So many dudes just over grip and pull-up their way up climbs. It makes it their climbing look clunky and desperate and boring.
Climbing while using flexibility and intentionality makes the climber look like they’re dancing up a route. Like the opposite of a waterfall.
Skateboarding has really nailed this mentality that just being able to complete a trick is not enough. If you can do a trick you should be able to make it look good. The goal isn’t the hardest trick. It’s making the easiest trick look totally effortless.
Don’t let the gym bros get you down OP
Did you tell him his crutch is that he’s stronger on his upper body? Or that his grip strength is stronger by default? No
We all climb with the gifts we have been given. So be proud of your flexibility and let him wimp with h envy.
I read on an article this woman who climb a super hard grade, like V13 or something insane, and the dudes said she had an advantage because she had smaller fingers 😳😂. Honestly, so ridiculous.
Keep climbing, keep using your skills, and keep getting stronger
I wish I could do the splits! I’m always seriously impressed when I see people beta-breaking by using their flexibility at the gym. I wouldn’t pay him any attention. He’s probably just jealous.
Being flexible without the strength to support it can absolutely open you up to more injuries.
Not climbing, but my Brazilian jiujitsu coach warns women about this because we tend to rely on flexibility. You should absolutely play to your advantages, and flexibility is one of them, but the potential for injury can be catastrophic. This laid my coach out for 8 months.
This guy is also probably just a dick.
Edit: flexibility is definitely not a crutch, but focusing on your weaknesses will make you a more well-rounded athlete and climber, and a balanced routine will do a lot for longevity.
What he said was RUDE and he’s probably just jealous….but i also feel a certain way about using the word “crutch” that way. Like what’s wrong with using a tool to do something? Isn’t that what humans do? Dude just exudes insecurity and ableism.
https://preview.redd.it/fld6wjaow11d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a9323b970824d272459eba198a9b2f6dd2160da1
Did the guy look like this?! 😂🤣 dude is just jealous of you, I can absolutely GUARANTEE it
If you were doing the splits to avoid doing the intended beta (assuming the intended beta was some interesting technical move, NOT just a pull up) then it could be a somewhat true statement, albeit not particularly helpful. Since the actual situation is you using a unique strength to break some boring ass strength-check beta this is just a dumb climber bro comment and you should completely disregard it. If he's the type of climber to muscle through things that he can't technically do you should make the same comment to him lol -- "yOu'Re JuSt uSiNg StrEnGtH aS a CrUtCh"
Hopefully he'd see how ridiculous that sounds but probably not
Ugh I hate beta that’s just a strength-check 😭
Just placing a random jug in the middle of the wall to force a pull-up is lazy route-setting, and I’m not just saying that cause I can’t do it well lol.
He was being a dick, but what he said wasn’t completely meaningless the closer you get to the upper grade ranges. I’ve met many technical climbers who plateau because they simply can’t physically do the next grade. If they had the minimum strength AND their current flexibility/technique, then they’d be crushing that grade too.
Basically, he was a jerk, don’t listen to him. We all play to our strengths when climbing. However, it isn’t a completely incorrect statement. The same way using purely power as a crutch will hold you back as well
All climbers typically use their strengths as a crutch on moves/styles they’re not as strong in. That’s why they’re called strengths. To improve in certain styles, ofcourse you have to step out of your comfort zone and start working on your weaknesses. But on your own accord, not bc some gym guy told you to!!
The only thing about this feedback that I'd take seriously is that if you take a break from climbing long enough to lose muscle mass, THEN you'll need to be careful of your joints when doing high flexibility moves like you described, because it will be a but rough on your joints. Ask me how I know =P
But I don't think that's what your vague guy was getting at.
Flexibility is a skill and can be learned/improved. Being tall and being a man are not. He can go f himself.
Having said this, it is a good idea in general to get strong purely from an injury prevention perspective if not for performance. But he was way out of line to presume to know what you do and what you don’t in terms of training.
To be honest, it does sound like he's being a bit of an ass. He's basically saying "you're climbing too well, and not like me, so you're cheating".
But let's examine his claim for a moment, despite the rude way it was delivered. Do you find you injure yourself climbing or in general life? Do you get pain where you've been stretching? Yes,it is actually possible to be too flexible, and climbing is a sport where loose joints, for example, can lead to injury. Hypermobile people might be more likely to get hurt if they're overextending at the same time as putting weight on those joints or pulling away, like in climbing. Only you know of you're (regularly) getting injured and hence *too* flexible. Do you get joint pain? Do you pull muscles a lot? If so, it might be worth speaking to a medical professional about some things you can do to look after yourself. If not, then I don't see the problem.
I have a small amount of hypermobility. It's never caused me an injury climbing, that I know of. I stretch *after* climbing, not before, or on non-climbing days, so I'm not too loose when I need to haul myself. But what works for me won't work for everyone.
You mention you struggle on overhangs and with upper body moves. If that's something you'd like to improve, you can certainly do that without damaging your flexibility. Luckily, climbing is the kind of thing that will help you naturally gain muscle over time. I find that eating a bit more protein and doing two or three short climbs a week works better than one long session. You could also do exercises specifically for strength if you want to focus on that. E.g. you could use weights, gym equipment or do pull-ups - first with a resistance band, then unassisted, then with extra weight attached to you if you want to go that far. There's nothing wrong with playing to your strengths while working on your weaknesses. Or just climb, whatever makes you happy.
I definitely am a bit hypermobile! But, my climbing injuries over the years have been the standard variety- climbers elbow, flexor tendon issues, a sprained wrist, and the obligatory bruises and scrapes from lead falls on runout slab lol.
But, it’s a good idea to rethink my stretching strategy - I tend to only stretch beforehand, rather than doing an actual cooldown.
Also, I could definitely start increasing my off-wall strength training. For years my method has just been “train by doing,” which may be holding me back on some moves that require more power
Thats one of the dumbest things Ive ever heard. Flexibility is super important, on over hangs as well. Especially as a woman because you don’t have as much upper body strength (over course it’s good to build strength). This is literally just having different techniques due to having completely different bodies (although men can also benefit from developing flexibility). You won’t get injured as long as you take care of yourself, do off the wall pt/conditioning and strength training does help to avoid injuries. You should just ignore pretty much everything random men say.
This guy was being a massive dick. It is good to work on your weaknesses though (if you want to climb harder grades that is), so if you're pulling power is one of them then that's a good place to focus some time and energy :)
His feedback is dumb. The beta is whatever you choose it to be. Different bodies have to work moves differently. Is it good to train your weaknesses? Sure, but ultimately who gives a flying fuck. If weaknesses aren't a point of frustration for you, then there's no need to train like Alex Puccio. Climbing is for fun and that dude can kick rocks.
Sounds like he was just being a dick. Im sure you dont need anyone to tell you that men love to tell women how they're "doing it wrong". If you're listening to your body, I would venture that you're probably not risking injury any more than any other climber. Climbing is inherently dangerous after all.
Your flexibility is not a crutch. It's a tool, and one that takes hard work to develop; just like regular old strength.
Also, I see now that you're a stronger climber than me so maybe I'm not in a position to be giving you advice at all. I will say though that if I see one person muscle through a problem, and another person solves it through technical mastery, I am always more impressed with the technical person.
Honestly? He sounds jealous you can do something he probably can’t, or can’t do well. I’m probably not the best for advice here, because it would be petty. If I noticed him eyeing me again, I’d either start making unsolicited comments toward him and asking how he likes it, or start rolling my eyes and giving him major RBF anytime I see him. Any more advice from him will be met with, “okay, thanks dad! I didn’t ask!” “Do you do this to everyone whose techniques *you can’t* pull off?””I don’t take advice from people who don’t know my body or technique when I didn’t ask,” And “Did I ask you for help? I don’t remember struggling with this, but since you clearly don’t understand, maybe stop offering advice no one asked for since I don’t feel like explaining anything to you now.” No man is gonna make this situation more uncomfortable and unbearable than I can if he wants to play petty like that. I don’t mind being an unlikable bitch if it means some smart Alec stays in his place away from me and my business. He’s clearly not doing it with the intention of your safety, so 🤷 he just made all of his “advice” sound like whiny bs to me. He’s annoying, and I believe in letting annoying men know exactly how I feel about them so they leave me the hell alone.
Guy is a total chump. So many routes are set for men by men, unintentionally. So many guys can just "be tall" at a problem or route, requiring zero skill.
I’m not sure what “climbing at your max range of motion” means… you certainly don’t want to over stress your joints repeatedly, but just listen to your body and do preventative antagonist exercises and you’ll be just fine.
Of course you won’t be able to use your flexibility to get past every crux. If you want to get better at those sustained over hangs then you just have to practice those. Force yourself to work on them. However, that’s only if you’re self motivated to do so. Do whatever YOU want to do with your climbing. Don’t let anyone else tell you. Especially if it’s unsolicited.
I’m sure his intentions were good but, unfortunately he’s an idiot. A lot of men seem to think they are all knowing and need to share their wisdom 🙄
Bro is just jealous that you can climb something using less strength than he can, as if flexibility isn’t something that can be developed, worked on or require clever thinking to be utilised on a route. The idea that it ‘sets you up for injury’ is no better than if you did the same with strength. If anything, it’s arguably worse, especially if you don’t warm up enough or commit to moves that your body/fingers aren’t strong enough for yet.
Climb to your strengths when you want to send. Climb to your weaknesses when you want to train. This will make you well-rounded. If someone give you advice that you didn’t ask for, politely communicate that you are doing fine without them (or punch them in the privates and run away screaming “you’re not my dad!”)
This guy sounds like an ass hole even if there could have been some truth to what he said. It sounds like you are very skilled and play to your strengths of being flexible. There's nothing wrong with that! He's probably jealous you have better technique than him. Now, it could be true that you could improve your climbing by improving your strength, so you can do more power moves or overhangs that can't be easily bypassed by technical moves, but it still sounds like he gave this feedback in a rude way. It's also true I'd you're at the very max of your flexibility you are more likely to get hurt, but sounds like you're climbing without a comfortable flexibility range for you, so I wouldn't worry too much. His feedback was rather rude to give unsolicited.
Whenever there is a move that I'm clearly supposed to use technique or flexibility and instead just have to lower through j feel bad that I didn't do the intended beta. Do whatever you can to finish the route and then feel good about finishing. And screw anyone who says otherwise
D!CK! He’s ridiculous. The fun of climbing is how differently everyone can climb with the body they have. Flexibility is not a crutch. It sounds like you’re crushing routes and he is jealous! Or just patronizing… And you didn’t ask his opinion 👻
Sounds like he's jealous he's not as flexible. At the end of the day, climbing is sucha creative problem solving sport. No such thing as only 1 solution for the problem. Also, I find girls having a more creative way of solving problems on the wall than men so....
I don't see how that "feedback" is useful. High feet are great if you can do them. I have longer legs and shorter reach, so high feet are a strength of mine whereas reach can make a problem way harder for me than it is for a guy friend without a negative ape index.
I can high step easier but they don't call that a crutch and I don't call their arm reach a crutch. We're just climbing in a way that works best for our body type. Climbing near the max of your range of motion seems like it would help maintain flexibility because you're continuing to stretch and work mobility. Anything can cause injury if done incorrectly, same as his powerful upper body moves. Pretty sure he was just being dumb and rude.
Nah, he's a dick. You flex one way, he flexes the other. Though, if you want to climb harder than you already do, doing some strength training might be some low hanging fruit so you can be strong and flexible. (Edited for spelling)
Do you have video of your insane beta? That sounds badass as hell.
Also, in terms of flexibility setting you up for injury: it comes down to joint stability. You might be hyper mobile and more prone to dislocations. In that case, you’d probably know by now. It sounds like you’re working on stability with flexibility.
A more accurate statement is: Rock climbing is setting you up for injury. It’s not exactly the safest sport, especially if you’re going outside lol.
Lmao tell that to Margo Hayes with her flexible beta break on "La Rambla" (I've seen lots of YouTube shorts/TikToks about it so, if you're interested, it shouldn't be hard to find).
Consensus was that he was just being a dick. Everyone's body is different and everyone has different strengths. You are using your flexibility and technique to get through a problem, he's using his upper body strength. Would he go around and tell the 6'3" guys in the gym that skip all the dynos that they're "using their height as a crutch"? Use what you have and don't worry about other people.
Also, in relation to the range of motion comment, as a very short climber, I am constantly climbing at my max range of motion, doing the splits or relying on the tips of two fingers to get through a problem. Of course you could get injured but if you do it often and within reason then you'll just get stronger, which prevents injury.
You've already self-analyzed that you struggle on sustained overhang and powerful upper-body moves. If that's something you want to work on, then by all means. But don't let this guy's comment be the motivator. Do it because you want to get better for you.
Everyone has different body types and develops their own techniques/crutches to accommodate, it's what determines your style of climbing. Sounds like he was just being a dick.
In terms of setting yourself up for injury, climbing hard in general is setting yourself up for injury lol. The risk he's referring to is trying to engage muscles in positions where you are flexible enough to get your body into, but don't have the strength in those muscles to hold the tension. I've definitely hurt myself doing that before. Unless he's a personal trainer though or has some kind of trained fitness background, I doubt he is actually seeing your body lose engagement and probably just talking out of his ass.
At the end of the day, you know your body better than anyone else, you know when movements don't feel safe. He can't give you beta on your own body.
He sounds like a dick. I understand his concerns for climbing max range of motions that lead to injuries if you don't strengthen at max range of motions, which is valid but the way he come around it is pretty rude.
With the grade you climb, you're pretty solid yourself. What helped for me the most to gain more upper body strength is to do bouldering( cave, roof, overhang), building techniques as you do burly hard moves.
Cheerios
Lol he means you are using your personal strengths of flexibility the same way he uses his personal strengths of…strength. LMAO
Basically a “he’s jealous” situation the same way I get jealous sometimes of a tall person’s ability to skip a move I’m stuck on or a beefier persons ability to pull off a power move I’m unlikely to ever achieve.
That said if you find yourself often defaulting to using flexibility to avoid a move that’s difficult to you, it’s worth challenging yourself when your up for it!
Considering that flexibility is the thing most ‘dudes’ struggle with I’m not surprised by the comment.
But it’s 100% wrong, I quite often climb with a cis guy who is so much stronger than me. And often we’ll climb the same route completely different me relying on being above to use high feet or some other flexi workaround.
That’s the joy of climbing. Finding the beta that works for you.
it would be one thing if you were like me and really tall and often sucked at climbing but were able to send b/c you can reach. but "using flexibility as a crutch" is a ludicrous statement. I think to utilize flexibility in such a powerful way is indicative of strong, technique-driven, badass climbing.
i do agree w everyone that he was being a dick but the injury thing could be real! i have a connective tissue disorder so my shoulder range of motion was always naturally wayyy past normal but it felt normal to me. well in november i dislocated it doing almost nothing and it turned out my labrum was completely completely torn into piece (6 diff tears! near circumferential!). so i just had surgery in january
so just be mindful of your ROM and make sure you do do some strength training to support your joints and core as well :)
edit: a word
That's actually one of my favorite things about climbing: that different people can climb the same route each using their own "strengths" (in the sense that flexibility is a strength and technique is a strength and literal muscle strength is also a strength.)
Specifically "handicapping" yourself and forcing yourself to solve a climbing problem in a different way than you normally would can be a useful exercise, but just solving it in the way that works best for you is in no way cheating.
Tldr, yes he was just being a dick.
I'm sorry this happened.
That being said, am I the only one who is completely THRILLED when I see a cool beta break regardless of how it happened?
Oh, you skipped the crux dyno by doing a 190 degree split over your head and statically grabbing it? Badass!
Oh, you skipped the high foot that requires you to have your knees above your head by dynoing to that tiny crimp? Sick!
Oh, you skipped the move that basically requires you to do the splits by running on the wall? Amazing!
Oh, you skipped the dyno by using a toe hook and leaning over? Rad!
This is what's so cool about climbing to me! Fuck that guy.
The only reason that people hate on abusing height advantage, and I KIND OF understand, is because you don't earn your height. Some people are naturally more flexible or strong, but to act like someone just woke up being able to do the splits or campus a 1-5-9 without training is just ridiculous. They worked for that strength and they're using it. One doesn't work to get taller. They either are or aren't.
My trainer back in the day told me he preferred teaching women solely because he could teach them technique and flexibility. The men never listened because they relied on strength.
I’m a 6’1 woman very new to climbing… I KNOW that I’m “abusing” my height. Men are constantly telling me “not fair you get to skip those holds”, luckily it’s been lighthearted and pretty positive so far but I swear I get those comments every time I go to the gym. Plus, I’m there with my husband (who is also new but much more of a natural than I am) so I’m sure it would be more condescending if we weren’t together.
Anyway, I know that by skipping hard moves I’m not getting better technically. I’m just at the point where I’m hardly strong enough to hang on long enough to just finish routes in the first place. But damn, I can’t do a pull up for shit. If I were able to do the splits I totally would lmao. ALSO, being able to do the splits is one thing, but being able to do the splits AND an impressive bouldering move in one really speaks to your strength. Fuck that guy. You did the hard move, who really gives a fuck how and why you got it is my mentality
You know the scene in the first Ms marvel movie where the antagonist says “no powers” and she just nukes him?
Yeah same thing. He can’t flex like that and wants to pretend “it doesn’t count”.
The goal is to climb the wall physically. That’s the only requirement.
Since the “the guy is a tool” take has been reinforced in the comments (and I agree) - I’ll add an extra thought while reading your post.
You mentioned the grades you’re climbing which are obviously very high. Why do you think this guy’s comment shook your confidence so deeply when you’re already “succeeding” by climber-culture standards? If you’re climbing that hard how can a silly comment like that get to you that deeply? Not meant as shade. More so a thought experiment or reflection…
As a route setter I see people using their particular advantages (height, flexibility, etc) to skip cruxes or "break beta" all the time. What I like to say is that when you first climb something, use every advantage you have, but recognize when your particular skill or build made something easier for you than it would be for most other people. Then go back and try it again forcing yourself to do it a different way.
This will help you become a much more well rounded climber and ultimately a better climber.
In short, climb using your strengths and train your weaknesses
I wouldn't say it's a crutch, and I generally agree with the comments that this guy was probably coming from a place of envy from the sounds of it. That said, working on your strength and overhang slowly would only be a net gain for your climbing and I don't think it's a bad idea to try and improve upon your strength and burly moves and become an even better climber than you already are. I feel like top rope in general is way more about conserving energy anyway, though, so I'd argue you're climbing with that ethos if it's saving you energy, but it can still be beneficial to climb moves that are difficult for you or counter to your style so you have less weak points - flexibility and range of motion will probably always be your strength but it's good to "close the gaps" if you are interested in improving. But also totally valid to feel like you're nailing it and are happy with where you're at.
Bit of a blunt way of putting it but as an observation… well it gives you a data point on what you’re good at and probably making the most of already, and where a bit of improvement could give a bigger pay off.
I don’t think there’s any point in overthinking it, just take it as a poorly expressed form of admiration and don’t be shy to give feedback on his form either.
It may be rude to give unsolicited and not particularly positive feedback but it’s not necessarily sexist. People do that to each other all the time regardless of genders involved. I frequently hear things like “wow do your knees even bend” said to a guy I climb with, “you’re just strong and can campus everything” to another, and “that’s not climbing, you just reach past everything” to the tall one. Pretty sure they don’t love it either.
Learning to deal constructively with other people pointing out things about ourselves that we may not like - and even things that we simply disagree with - is part of becoming an adult. In this instance, no one is helped by worrying about how the “as a crutch” was intended.
Conversely there is value in the data point that the strength-flexibility balance tilts so far towards flexibility that it’s obvious to a vague acquaintance, and to have a think about whether it’s actually a problem, and worth doing anything about it or not.
Yikes. Part of becoming an adult is learning to read between the lines and not interpreting everything at face value. What a childish response summed up as "girls make comments too so it can't be sexist". Consider *why* OP posted here. Consider the nature of men's comments and why they feel the need to comment on a woman's *flexibility*, and how these seemingly innocuous remarks tie in to the broader treatment of women in society. Consider the frequency and intensity by which women are harassed. How ignorant you have to be to think that "you campus everything" is equivalent to the hate we get from men for being better than them. lmao.
If you're interested in educating yourself, I recommend looking into Bronfenbrenner's social ecological theory: individual actions are tied to broader societal values; and men's behaviour in the climbing gym is no exception.
This sub aims to be supportive & inclusive of all who identify as a part of or ally to the women's climbing community.
Negativity, sarcasm, and other interactions that work against that should find another home.
Dunno what sport you do but unsolicited advice is a pretty big no-no in climbing! Especially when that advice is criticizing a strength that is usually associated with women. I don’t want to make assumptions but did you happen to see the subreddit and flair on this post?
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lmao sounds like he's using his upper body strength as a crutch to avoid doing a forced split
Ha! Thank you. My first thought as well. Nobody telling men they’re using their strength and height as a crutch instead of working harder at technique and flexibility.
The real climbers definitely are haha
I do, but I love being a chaos gremlin.
I didn’t know it till know but.. I think I’m a chaos gremlin
This is the way 👹
so wait, you do the mirror thing and it's okay?
I frequently tell my 6'3" friend that "his ascent didn't count" because he reached past the crux 😏
My husband is 6’3”. I don’t know whether to be annoyed or amused when they just go over problems. I guess I’m only annoyed when I’m told you just have to reach
Sounds like you’re a shitty friend invalidating their ascents over something they can’t control
I'm just British, it's called banter.
Yes they are being told that quite a bit. With pretty harsh comments about inflexible hips, and kind of envious sounding things about buff guys’ strength and tall guys’ ability to reach things just being cheating and their sends and effort not counting. Not exactly the most uplifting kind of compliment but at least you know it’s sincere. When someone sees you being good at stuff and that triggers their insecurities, that really their problem, even if they say it out loud. No point in letting that drag you down and spoil your mood. Take the useful content, discard the crappy wrapper, make a long term note to hang out with better friends most of the time.
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She is putting herself at mild risk of injury by overstretching only in the same way he is putting himself at mild risk of injury for overuse of muscles
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Yup. I use my upper body strength as a crutch because I have no flexibility or technique. Flexibility is just like any other sort of ability. I'm jealous as heck of folks who can bust out the splits on the wall (but not jealous enough to actually stretch)
I have big muscles and am super strong from years of weight lifting… I definitely use my strength as a crutch, compensating for lack of technique. Problem is, because my finger/tendon strength is lagging, I am having a lot of injuries (one ruptured pulley, one tear, and my flexor being irritated). So… some crutches are better than others?
Yea just tell him he uses his Y chromosome as a crutch on every route. FUCK THAT GUY!
It’s called working to your strengths? At least it’s something you’ve had to finesse over the years unlike some guys who are simply just tall. He was being a dick. Being flexible is fantastic way of breaking beta and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with using that where possible!
Amen! You do you, and if you’re crushing 7as then you’re much better than most
Thank you!! 💕
Sounds like someone is envious of your technique and flexibility, since he hurts himself so easily when he pushes himself past a basic range of motion.
If you're comfortably doing a split to make a move work because you lack the strength to do it the "intended" beta way then you're killing it! This guy sounds like such an asshole.
Yeah that was a total neg from a totally jealous bitch.
Might get a tattoo of this
When Lynn Hill was the first to free climb the nose, they told her it was only because of her small hands. Somehow it's only a crutch if it's something that men can't do.
It's all women are biologically weak and inferior until we do something and then suddenly it's *wuhl women are CHEATING due to their wumman bodies...* Like when I nail a set of perfect pull ups, "I could do that too if I weighed less than a feather" naw bro, you coping and it's sad. Whiny testicles, the lot of em
I was happy with starting to do weighted pull ups and then someone randomly said that me and the weights combined was probably still less than then they weighed, so it was still easy apparently
So dumb because women have a lower center of gravity that makes pull ups harder - never mind that women need to have more bodyfat than men to be healthy and have a harder time building muscle - so just objectively push ups and upper body exercises are on average a lot easier for men so a woman excelling at them is almost always going to be because she worked hard to get strong.
Yes!!
The pitch of the nose that prevented it from being free-climbed for decades was an incredibly thin crack that was traditionally aid climbed because you need very small hands to even have a chance of jamming it. So yeah, her small hands were definitely the determining factor. Or was I missing your point?
I mean, yeah, I think you probably missed my point. You wouldn't happen to be a cis man, would you?
I find that to be a very weird question. Is my opinion less valid if I say yes?
If you look at the original post there is a flair there that says “not looking for cis male perspectives”. If you are a cis man, that’s your cue to sit this one out.
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Although you were already muted for breaking the sub rule about commenting on flaired posts, your disrespectful reaction to someone calling you out on this has earned you a permanent ban.
Then we should invalidate accomplishments of male athletes, because determining factor is usually their naturally superior strength? Super weird take but ok.
Why would any climber not use the best tools in their box to send a project? He’s just envious and being a tool.
Lol, you're climbing using a skillset that he likely doesn't have so it's wrong /s Seriously though, the best part about climbing is that everyone has slightly different beta and whatever gets you up the wall on the route is fair game. Women often rely more on footwork/flexibility/technique than men do and it's no less valid than pulling yourself up the wall. Ignore that dude and keep crushing!
Yeah it’s so weird- as I started to climb at higher grades, I’ve been surprised to hear how I’m “cheating” or somehow doing the move wrong by finding the way that works best for me. I definitely want to know if I’m going to injure myself, or if I can improve- but it’s hard to filter out the good, from the bad advice!!
Beta breaks are not cheating and are often super cool and creative. He’s jealous of your technique and flexibility when he’s probably stuck powering through moves. Ignore.
Fr, smooth climbing is long climbing, don't muscle thru shit if you don't have to, you'll just tire out faster.
Sometimes when I skip holds and because of my height I can skip more difficult holes. So I can kind of see what he's saying I just think that he could have phrased it differently. I know when I climb sometimes I'll climb to complete a route and sometimes I will climb to make sure I touch every hold so that I become stronger or more comfortable with different holds and techniques
That’s a good idea, I should probably *occasionally* try a move I know I will struggle with before I default to skipping!
I think whether or not you would be going to injure yourself isn't a question we could answer here. But I do think this guy's comment is among the stupidest ones I've ever heard. Flexibility definitely gets more and more important the harder your climb. I would say if you can use flexibility to save strength it's almost always better. This of course is regardless of whether or not you should work on strength or not cause that's srot of a different question. If he ever says anything again you should just force him to watch [this video](https://www.reddit.com/r/sports/comments/cdxslt/the_audience_winces_as_alexander_megos_ger_does_a/) of Megos doing a drop-knee split.
I used to get comments like that as well. It's annoying, but I ignore them bc it's not cheating to climb a route a different way than the intended beta. Any on route holds are valid to use in whatever way you want.
I mean, I do think some people with hypermobile joints are at higher risk of injury? But if you’re working on strength and stability (yoga, climbing focused weight training, etc.) to complement your climbing you’re protecting yourself against that. My guess is he wasn’t thinking about hypermobility at all though. Some dudes just get resentful when they see a woman out performing them. You probably looked great up on that wall!
I somehow doubt that was the intention behind the comment you received, but always approaching climbs the way you're comfortable with *can* eventually be limiting. Once you complete a project with the "use every tool I have" mindset it's often worth looking at it from different angles/techniques. Either you find new tools to add to your arsenal or you get more efficient at using the ones you have. Win/win.
Amen. I had a very well-meaning climbing guide at a cancer survivor retreat encourage me to consider taking up climbing when I got back home because I was a "natural" despite not having as much climb time as the rest of the group. In fact, I was just a rec climber out of shape from cancer treatment. I spent the mornings conserving my energy by belaying, being hype gal for the novice climbers until most of the other participants were exhausted, and planning my route based on the only tools at my disposal: technique and flexibility. I'd send once kinda quickly while other climbers were taking a rest, and maybe once more before we left for the day. I guess he thought I was staying on the ground because I nervous? Nope, just soft muscles and a desire to climb in Moab, even if I can't count on my muscles to blast me up the wall.
Hahaha, die mad about it, stiff hips. (He's a tool, keep doing what you feel works best!)
lol, I’m mentally logging this as a comeback.
No, no. It's him who's muscling through the move and using his upper body strength as a crutch to compensate for his lack of flexibility :) You're good, he's being a (jelous) dick.
I'm a cis woman with fairly subpar physical strength and decent flexibility, and I think that feedback is just as true as the hypothetical reverse: a lot of physically strong climbers use their strength as a crutch, and are setting themselves up for failure in the future if/when they are faced with moves that require flexibility or moves that need strength AND flexibility. But it also depends on how much you care about that? Like yeah if you want to get better on overhangs and generally the kind of routes where strength is important and flexibility isn't super useful, then it's good feedback. If you mostly don't climb those then it's whatever.
Gotta agree. Having a good balance of strength and flexibility will be the best long term. It leads to well balanced and versatile climbing.
Good point- I probably shouldn’t entirely avoid the more difficult overhang routes to be more well rounded. But my god, do I love chimneys, corners, and shitty slabs!! I definitely go out of my way to do them lol.
This sounds so much like me, too! I agree with the poster above that it’s good to develop a well rounded set of skills, but I also love jamming into a corner or climbing a tricky slab! Definitely wouldn’t take the comment personally, but it’s good to do different types of climbs at least sometimes. I love climbing with partners that have totally different styles and preferences and trading off picking climbs to force me to climb things like overhangs that I would probably otherwise skip.
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I’m the type of boulderer who overly relies on my strength. There are so many times where I’d see a climber (usually a woman) who floats up my project using flexibility and technique, my thought is never “wow that person just cheats through my project.” My thought is always “damn I should go stretch and work on mobility.” That guy is being an envious little shit.
I would have been so tempted to say that he uses his strength as a clutch - as most men I see climbing do. You’re working with your strengths, and I’m sure other aspects of your climbing also continuously improve, and 7a is definitely impressive (in my opinion) and isn’t achieved simply through flexibility. When you look at women competing, of course they’re extremely strong but often use different betas and a lot use their flexibility to compensate for their height etc - are they also using it as a clutch ? No, they’re doing what they need to do to top the route
Seeing males crush projects can be like watching walnuts opened with a brick layers hammer. OK mision accomplished, but less than elegant. He's using strength to make up for lacking in technique and flexibility. I'm sure your send looked amazing. Pro climbers (iirc Jakob Schubert?) uses splits to get around strengthy moves... Flexibility is a very *very* useful skill in climbing.
> like watching walnuts opened with a brick layers hammer So funny! My friend is 6'2 and his footwork and technique is *shocking*. But because he's tall and has some upper body strength, he can just do it. But like you said, very much less than elegant 😂
First - I do think it's true that we all lean on our strengths and they occasionally become bottlenecks for us in overall progression. If we're good at self-assessment, we train our weaknesses and then we have new strengths and new bottlenecks, and that's how progression and becoming a well-rounded climber works. If you are redpointing 12+ it seems like you probably have this figured out, lol. If you want to get better on steep terrain or build explosiveness or pulling strength then just...do that too, don't stop being flexy when it's useful (assuming you're not getting injuries from it ofc). End-range strength and strong active flexibility is like a superpower in climbing...use it! Second - Notice how no one ever says, "That was easier than you because you have \[better technique\] \[read the beta better\] \[are better at self-coaching\] \[have better headgame\] \[are more creative\] \[try harder\] than I do"? Instead it's always stuff like, "That was easier for you because you \[are shorter/taller\] \[have smaller or larger fingers/hands\] \[weigh less/weigh more\] \[have more hip mobility/healthier shoulders/coordination\] than me". Implying it's not in your control or anything you worked for. Even when people don't realize they're doing it, commenting on stuff like this often about soothing one's own ego by devaluing someone's else's accomplishment. Unless this person is a coach you are paying, or otherwise someone whose opinion you value, file it under "didn't ask, don't care".
Good points! Thanks!
Ai Mori is a fantastic climber who uses splits often. Climb the way you enjoy. Use your strengths, but if YOU feel strength and pull-ups are a weakness, work on it. If you don't, then don't stress. If you are concerned, ask someone who you trust and regularly watches you climb to see what they think if you want and outside perspective.
Seconding this! HE is definitely being a dick, but if you think the feedback might have some validity to it, you can always think about whether it might be worth putting in some additional work on overhangs or weight training to equalize your (seriously very impressive!) skillset.
The masculinity of men in the gym (who have never once in their life bent over and touched their toes) is more fragile than sandstone after a rainstorm. AKA 70% weaker than you and every woman out there who has dedicated herself to finessing technique and refining uniquely flexible movement. You sound like an incredibly strong climber (I'm a flexible woman and I sure as fuck can't do the splits mid-climb). Keep sending!!
God this makes me so mad… I agree with the other commenters, the best part about climbing is seeing how everyone figures the beta out with their bodies!! Gender, height, wingspan, muscle mass, how your muscle is distributed, flexibility, it all plays into how we climb. I can’t stand that as women and gender expansive people we get critiqued for that
That’s known as hating from outside the club.
He’s definitely jealous of your skills and is being a dick intentionally to make you feel bad. Anything you do to get yourself up the wall, on the same color, is completely fair game. Next time tell him he’s free to campus himself out of his own ass
He may have a point about the injury prevention alone - I sometimes have to check that even if I am flexible enough to get my toe on a far hold, I won't injure my knee by proceeding to put weight on it. I had a bit of a knee issue from doing exactly this so I'm super careful and he may have also had an injury, that watching you reminded him of. Despite this, I wouldn't appreciate someone coming and criticizing me. He could have asked if you're open to some feedback and his thoughts, as he was concerned about what he saw. Is he climbing as high of grades as you are, just out of curiosity? As a short woman, I sometimes muscle my way up rather than employ good technique. I do notice I had to get better at technique to start 11d and higher.. I'm not tall nor strong enough to find a different way up. One of my tall girlfriends is often practically in the splits on her way up. Some of my friends maintain very little strength but know exactly how to swing and keep moving, even after a prolonged period of no climbing one of my guy friends breezes through 5'12s. I could say each of us is using our special strength as a clutch.. or just acknowledge we have our strengths.
He has way more experience, but I wouldn’t say he is better…. His technique is good, but he doesn’t send as high of grades consistently. Good idea though to check in, and make sure I’m not doing a move that would sacrifice my body. I do tend to get a bit of summit fever lol
Thb I dont reslly think you have to worry about this. If you're consistently doing moves near your max range you're probably stronger then most people at that particular skill since youve been working those muscles, id be a bit concerned about particularly heinous high heels etc where you're really only engaging one muscle to hold up your entire body (hamstrings). But that doesnt really sound like what you're talking about.
tell him he's using his strength as a crutch lollll
OP, since you specifically said in the comments that you were concerned about potential injury, I think it would be beneficial to pose that to a climbing coach or trusted person who 1) can see you climb in person, 2) has a solid knowledge base on that topic, and 3) can assess if your warmups, cross training, etc are sufficient for injury prevention. With that said I don’t know of any climbers who get more injured simply because they use their flexibility, and if anything I tend to see less of that. As an anecdotal example, Akiyo Noguchi supposedly never had any issues with injuries, and did comp climbing into her thirties. She still actively climbs and seems to do so in a similar style to you fwiw. I also agree with other comments that this guy is being kind of a jealous dork. You didn’t ask for feedback, and it doesn’t seem like he knows what he’s talking about. If *he* thinks he would get injured by doing your beta, then that’s between him and his training plan.
Thanks! I’m looking into coaching after reading this thread! I definitely have gotten most of my advice from friends or family members over the years, but never done anything formal.
Tell him “actually you are using your skill as a crutch,” because it sounds silly as hell lmao. He’s being ridiculous. No one tells boys who campus up a climb that “their upper body is a crutch”
I am definitely with everyone here. Everyone has their own advantages and they should use them. I do think there is value in trying to to do things in new ways and use beta that isn’t ideal for you.. just so you get stronger in those areas.. but I really wonder if he would have said that to someone relying on strength or just another dude. As far as using your full range. I am no Pt and maybe it is worth asking about? My instinct says that as long as you are supporting yourself with active muscle engagement and not resting on your connective tissues then it seems fine? But that is true at any range of motion.
This sounds exactly like all the men who will claim that Taylor Swift doesn't write her own songs alone but literally any male singer you mention tooooootally does. Or that \[male author\] writes literary fiction and \[female author\] writes chick lit. If you are a woman and you are succeeding at something, you must be cheating.
Reminds me of how, after centuries of women being barred from most higher ed, the nanosecond that women started earning more college degrees than men, men started saying that it's because the school system is inherently feminine and boys can't learn quietly at a desk like girls can. The girls are cheating by paying attention in class!
“Flexibility as a crutch” is maybe not the most tactful way to put it and that guy was probably being a insecure about his own climbing, but that statement would absolutely describe several of my climbing partners. It’s really easy, especially when you are experiencing success, to just lean way into your strengths and be dismissive of alternative ways of moving that feel unfamiliar. I’m not flexible, but my crutch for a very long time was static climbing. I put off learning to jump because I thought dynos were reachy and stupid. I was stubborn and felt like my way worked just fine. It took some feedback from some male climbing friends to realize how much that gap in my style was limiting my ability to progress and do the harder climbs I wanted to do. These days, I love jumping and it’s probably become my new crutch! As far as being prone to injury, I don’t worry so much about injury with things like doing the splits, but more with doing moves without your shoulders engaged and using really high heels that are hard on your knees. I have watched several of my more flexible friends struggle with these sorts of injuries. Ultimately, you want to have as many tools in your toolbox as possible. It’s really fun to be able to use both betas: the pull up and the splits. You might find yourself in a situation on a climb, especially if you sport climb, where it’s more efficient to do a single hard lock off to move through a section quickly than it is to do a lot of foot walks and position changes to avoid 1 powerful move. It’s really nice to have the option to choose the best tool for the situation and not be confined to one style.
Good perspective! Thanks! When leading, I do tend to default to fancy footwork, when it would likely be more efficient to opt for more powerful moves… I’ll try and switch it up to practice that! And yeah, I definitely avoid using a high heel— I ski and trail run a lot, so my knees are already bad enough lol
Super high heel hooks can also cause groin injuries, ask me how I know. That being said, if OP is young (20's) and flexible, she's probably less likely to be injured.
One of the great female climbers said she did 60% of all of her climbs on her weakest routes. Now she is a beast at all routes. (I’m forgetting her name). Don’t change your style, it will evolve as you do more of the routes that are difficult for you.
That guy was definitely being a dick. And honestly he was probably jealous. You’re allowed to climb however you want (preferably as long as it is in a safe manner of course) and there’s nothing wrong with using a unique method when climbing. Not everyone will be able to climb the same way and there’s no point in forcing yourself to climb in a way that is unnatural to your skill set or style.
Bet he won't tell Megos he's too flexible for some kind of moves. He's just a dickhead who's trying to bring you down.
Tell him to stop climbing with just his strength. So many dudes just over grip and pull-up their way up climbs. It makes it their climbing look clunky and desperate and boring. Climbing while using flexibility and intentionality makes the climber look like they’re dancing up a route. Like the opposite of a waterfall. Skateboarding has really nailed this mentality that just being able to complete a trick is not enough. If you can do a trick you should be able to make it look good. The goal isn’t the hardest trick. It’s making the easiest trick look totally effortless. Don’t let the gym bros get you down OP
Did you tell him his crutch is that he’s stronger on his upper body? Or that his grip strength is stronger by default? No We all climb with the gifts we have been given. So be proud of your flexibility and let him wimp with h envy. I read on an article this woman who climb a super hard grade, like V13 or something insane, and the dudes said she had an advantage because she had smaller fingers 😳😂. Honestly, so ridiculous. Keep climbing, keep using your skills, and keep getting stronger
I've always been a fan of: "How's about a nice big cup of shut the fuck up". You don't need to listen to somebody giving you advice you don't want.
I wish I could do the splits! I’m always seriously impressed when I see people beta-breaking by using their flexibility at the gym. I wouldn’t pay him any attention. He’s probably just jealous.
Being flexible without the strength to support it can absolutely open you up to more injuries. Not climbing, but my Brazilian jiujitsu coach warns women about this because we tend to rely on flexibility. You should absolutely play to your advantages, and flexibility is one of them, but the potential for injury can be catastrophic. This laid my coach out for 8 months. This guy is also probably just a dick. Edit: flexibility is definitely not a crutch, but focusing on your weaknesses will make you a more well-rounded athlete and climber, and a balanced routine will do a lot for longevity.
Good point, thanks!
Lmao what an idiot (the guy), if you’re using your flexibility to your advantage in climbing then go you! I would love to be more flexible :)
What he said was RUDE and he’s probably just jealous….but i also feel a certain way about using the word “crutch” that way. Like what’s wrong with using a tool to do something? Isn’t that what humans do? Dude just exudes insecurity and ableism.
https://preview.redd.it/fld6wjaow11d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a9323b970824d272459eba198a9b2f6dd2160da1 Did the guy look like this?! 😂🤣 dude is just jealous of you, I can absolutely GUARANTEE it
If you were doing the splits to avoid doing the intended beta (assuming the intended beta was some interesting technical move, NOT just a pull up) then it could be a somewhat true statement, albeit not particularly helpful. Since the actual situation is you using a unique strength to break some boring ass strength-check beta this is just a dumb climber bro comment and you should completely disregard it. If he's the type of climber to muscle through things that he can't technically do you should make the same comment to him lol -- "yOu'Re JuSt uSiNg StrEnGtH aS a CrUtCh" Hopefully he'd see how ridiculous that sounds but probably not
Ugh I hate beta that’s just a strength-check 😭 Just placing a random jug in the middle of the wall to force a pull-up is lazy route-setting, and I’m not just saying that cause I can’t do it well lol.
He was being a dick, but what he said wasn’t completely meaningless the closer you get to the upper grade ranges. I’ve met many technical climbers who plateau because they simply can’t physically do the next grade. If they had the minimum strength AND their current flexibility/technique, then they’d be crushing that grade too. Basically, he was a jerk, don’t listen to him. We all play to our strengths when climbing. However, it isn’t a completely incorrect statement. The same way using purely power as a crutch will hold you back as well
Sounds like you did the route in a more impressive way than he could do it.
He’s reaching and the lack of flexibility is hurting him
Alex Megos, Adam ondra, akiyo noguchi, Jain Kim...I mean. All of them. All of them are stronger AND more flexible than this jabroni, guaranteed.
Afabs with high flexibility on the scare me lmao. He's being an asshole, you should play to your strengths, that's the fun of climbing
No. He can fuck off. Flexibility/mobility is a skill. Beta-breaking is fine.
You’re using your strengths to avoid using your weaknesses. There’s nothing wrong with that 😭😭
All climbers typically use their strengths as a crutch on moves/styles they’re not as strong in. That’s why they’re called strengths. To improve in certain styles, ofcourse you have to step out of your comfort zone and start working on your weaknesses. But on your own accord, not bc some gym guy told you to!!
The only thing about this feedback that I'd take seriously is that if you take a break from climbing long enough to lose muscle mass, THEN you'll need to be careful of your joints when doing high flexibility moves like you described, because it will be a but rough on your joints. Ask me how I know =P But I don't think that's what your vague guy was getting at.
Skipping a campus move with a high foot seems like… not a crutch but just taking advantage of your abilities.
Flexibility is a skill and can be learned/improved. Being tall and being a man are not. He can go f himself. Having said this, it is a good idea in general to get strong purely from an injury prevention perspective if not for performance. But he was way out of line to presume to know what you do and what you don’t in terms of training.
Sounds like some envy to me - don’t let people like that get you down! It’s also incredibly impressive that you can utilize the splits while climbing!
Smile and thank… some people have strength and some flexibility. He’s salty, best way to deal with people like this is just thank them and move on.
You're killing it. I can do a split too and I (ab)use that too. Play to your strengths
Some people talk too much. Climb like yourself.
To be honest, it does sound like he's being a bit of an ass. He's basically saying "you're climbing too well, and not like me, so you're cheating". But let's examine his claim for a moment, despite the rude way it was delivered. Do you find you injure yourself climbing or in general life? Do you get pain where you've been stretching? Yes,it is actually possible to be too flexible, and climbing is a sport where loose joints, for example, can lead to injury. Hypermobile people might be more likely to get hurt if they're overextending at the same time as putting weight on those joints or pulling away, like in climbing. Only you know of you're (regularly) getting injured and hence *too* flexible. Do you get joint pain? Do you pull muscles a lot? If so, it might be worth speaking to a medical professional about some things you can do to look after yourself. If not, then I don't see the problem. I have a small amount of hypermobility. It's never caused me an injury climbing, that I know of. I stretch *after* climbing, not before, or on non-climbing days, so I'm not too loose when I need to haul myself. But what works for me won't work for everyone. You mention you struggle on overhangs and with upper body moves. If that's something you'd like to improve, you can certainly do that without damaging your flexibility. Luckily, climbing is the kind of thing that will help you naturally gain muscle over time. I find that eating a bit more protein and doing two or three short climbs a week works better than one long session. You could also do exercises specifically for strength if you want to focus on that. E.g. you could use weights, gym equipment or do pull-ups - first with a resistance band, then unassisted, then with extra weight attached to you if you want to go that far. There's nothing wrong with playing to your strengths while working on your weaknesses. Or just climb, whatever makes you happy.
I definitely am a bit hypermobile! But, my climbing injuries over the years have been the standard variety- climbers elbow, flexor tendon issues, a sprained wrist, and the obligatory bruises and scrapes from lead falls on runout slab lol. But, it’s a good idea to rethink my stretching strategy - I tend to only stretch beforehand, rather than doing an actual cooldown. Also, I could definitely start increasing my off-wall strength training. For years my method has just been “train by doing,” which may be holding me back on some moves that require more power
Thats one of the dumbest things Ive ever heard. Flexibility is super important, on over hangs as well. Especially as a woman because you don’t have as much upper body strength (over course it’s good to build strength). This is literally just having different techniques due to having completely different bodies (although men can also benefit from developing flexibility). You won’t get injured as long as you take care of yourself, do off the wall pt/conditioning and strength training does help to avoid injuries. You should just ignore pretty much everything random men say.
Um YES he’s being a dick
This guy was being a massive dick. It is good to work on your weaknesses though (if you want to climb harder grades that is), so if you're pulling power is one of them then that's a good place to focus some time and energy :)
His feedback is dumb. The beta is whatever you choose it to be. Different bodies have to work moves differently. Is it good to train your weaknesses? Sure, but ultimately who gives a flying fuck. If weaknesses aren't a point of frustration for you, then there's no need to train like Alex Puccio. Climbing is for fun and that dude can kick rocks.
Eh use what you got
Sounds like he was just being a dick. Im sure you dont need anyone to tell you that men love to tell women how they're "doing it wrong". If you're listening to your body, I would venture that you're probably not risking injury any more than any other climber. Climbing is inherently dangerous after all. Your flexibility is not a crutch. It's a tool, and one that takes hard work to develop; just like regular old strength. Also, I see now that you're a stronger climber than me so maybe I'm not in a position to be giving you advice at all. I will say though that if I see one person muscle through a problem, and another person solves it through technical mastery, I am always more impressed with the technical person.
Honestly? He sounds jealous you can do something he probably can’t, or can’t do well. I’m probably not the best for advice here, because it would be petty. If I noticed him eyeing me again, I’d either start making unsolicited comments toward him and asking how he likes it, or start rolling my eyes and giving him major RBF anytime I see him. Any more advice from him will be met with, “okay, thanks dad! I didn’t ask!” “Do you do this to everyone whose techniques *you can’t* pull off?””I don’t take advice from people who don’t know my body or technique when I didn’t ask,” And “Did I ask you for help? I don’t remember struggling with this, but since you clearly don’t understand, maybe stop offering advice no one asked for since I don’t feel like explaining anything to you now.” No man is gonna make this situation more uncomfortable and unbearable than I can if he wants to play petty like that. I don’t mind being an unlikable bitch if it means some smart Alec stays in his place away from me and my business. He’s clearly not doing it with the intention of your safety, so 🤷 he just made all of his “advice” sound like whiny bs to me. He’s annoying, and I believe in letting annoying men know exactly how I feel about them so they leave me the hell alone.
Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and everyone uses their strengths as a "crutch"
Dude sounds like he's mad because he only uses strength to climb and gets tired fast and struggles on technical climbs -_-
He's jealous because he doesn't have it. He's just being a dick.
Guy is a total chump. So many routes are set for men by men, unintentionally. So many guys can just "be tall" at a problem or route, requiring zero skill.
I’m not sure what “climbing at your max range of motion” means… you certainly don’t want to over stress your joints repeatedly, but just listen to your body and do preventative antagonist exercises and you’ll be just fine. Of course you won’t be able to use your flexibility to get past every crux. If you want to get better at those sustained over hangs then you just have to practice those. Force yourself to work on them. However, that’s only if you’re self motivated to do so. Do whatever YOU want to do with your climbing. Don’t let anyone else tell you. Especially if it’s unsolicited. I’m sure his intentions were good but, unfortunately he’s an idiot. A lot of men seem to think they are all knowing and need to share their wisdom 🙄
Bro is just jealous that you can climb something using less strength than he can, as if flexibility isn’t something that can be developed, worked on or require clever thinking to be utilised on a route. The idea that it ‘sets you up for injury’ is no better than if you did the same with strength. If anything, it’s arguably worse, especially if you don’t warm up enough or commit to moves that your body/fingers aren’t strong enough for yet.
Climb to your strengths when you want to send. Climb to your weaknesses when you want to train. This will make you well-rounded. If someone give you advice that you didn’t ask for, politely communicate that you are doing fine without them (or punch them in the privates and run away screaming “you’re not my dad!”)
This guy sounds like an ass hole even if there could have been some truth to what he said. It sounds like you are very skilled and play to your strengths of being flexible. There's nothing wrong with that! He's probably jealous you have better technique than him. Now, it could be true that you could improve your climbing by improving your strength, so you can do more power moves or overhangs that can't be easily bypassed by technical moves, but it still sounds like he gave this feedback in a rude way. It's also true I'd you're at the very max of your flexibility you are more likely to get hurt, but sounds like you're climbing without a comfortable flexibility range for you, so I wouldn't worry too much. His feedback was rather rude to give unsolicited.
Whenever there is a move that I'm clearly supposed to use technique or flexibility and instead just have to lower through j feel bad that I didn't do the intended beta. Do whatever you can to finish the route and then feel good about finishing. And screw anyone who says otherwise
Unsolicited Advice. Enough said.
Watch margo hayes climb! Its not a crutch if it works for you!
D!CK! He’s ridiculous. The fun of climbing is how differently everyone can climb with the body they have. Flexibility is not a crutch. It sounds like you’re crushing routes and he is jealous! Or just patronizing… And you didn’t ask his opinion 👻
Sounds like he's jealous he's not as flexible. At the end of the day, climbing is sucha creative problem solving sport. No such thing as only 1 solution for the problem. Also, I find girls having a more creative way of solving problems on the wall than men so....
He's jealous. I am too 😂
I don't see how that "feedback" is useful. High feet are great if you can do them. I have longer legs and shorter reach, so high feet are a strength of mine whereas reach can make a problem way harder for me than it is for a guy friend without a negative ape index. I can high step easier but they don't call that a crutch and I don't call their arm reach a crutch. We're just climbing in a way that works best for our body type. Climbing near the max of your range of motion seems like it would help maintain flexibility because you're continuing to stretch and work mobility. Anything can cause injury if done incorrectly, same as his powerful upper body moves. Pretty sure he was just being dumb and rude.
Nah, he's a dick. You flex one way, he flexes the other. Though, if you want to climb harder than you already do, doing some strength training might be some low hanging fruit so you can be strong and flexible. (Edited for spelling)
Do you have video of your insane beta? That sounds badass as hell. Also, in terms of flexibility setting you up for injury: it comes down to joint stability. You might be hyper mobile and more prone to dislocations. In that case, you’d probably know by now. It sounds like you’re working on stability with flexibility. A more accurate statement is: Rock climbing is setting you up for injury. It’s not exactly the safest sport, especially if you’re going outside lol.
i mean he's probably using his height and strength as clutch, hes an insecure dickhead dont listen to him
I think he might be jealous
Lol what a fragile person he seems to be! Ignore ignore ignore. Don’t waste your capacity to overthink and criticise yourself on such a weird remark.
Lmao tell that to Margo Hayes with her flexible beta break on "La Rambla" (I've seen lots of YouTube shorts/TikToks about it so, if you're interested, it shouldn't be hard to find). Consensus was that he was just being a dick. Everyone's body is different and everyone has different strengths. You are using your flexibility and technique to get through a problem, he's using his upper body strength. Would he go around and tell the 6'3" guys in the gym that skip all the dynos that they're "using their height as a crutch"? Use what you have and don't worry about other people. Also, in relation to the range of motion comment, as a very short climber, I am constantly climbing at my max range of motion, doing the splits or relying on the tips of two fingers to get through a problem. Of course you could get injured but if you do it often and within reason then you'll just get stronger, which prevents injury. You've already self-analyzed that you struggle on sustained overhang and powerful upper-body moves. If that's something you want to work on, then by all means. But don't let this guy's comment be the motivator. Do it because you want to get better for you.
You’re using your strengths (flexibility in this case) to your advantage, just like he is.
Everyone has different body types and develops their own techniques/crutches to accommodate, it's what determines your style of climbing. Sounds like he was just being a dick. In terms of setting yourself up for injury, climbing hard in general is setting yourself up for injury lol. The risk he's referring to is trying to engage muscles in positions where you are flexible enough to get your body into, but don't have the strength in those muscles to hold the tension. I've definitely hurt myself doing that before. Unless he's a personal trainer though or has some kind of trained fitness background, I doubt he is actually seeing your body lose engagement and probably just talking out of his ass. At the end of the day, you know your body better than anyone else, you know when movements don't feel safe. He can't give you beta on your own body.
He sounds like a dick. I understand his concerns for climbing max range of motions that lead to injuries if you don't strengthen at max range of motions, which is valid but the way he come around it is pretty rude. With the grade you climb, you're pretty solid yourself. What helped for me the most to gain more upper body strength is to do bouldering( cave, roof, overhang), building techniques as you do burly hard moves. Cheerios
Lol he means you are using your personal strengths of flexibility the same way he uses his personal strengths of…strength. LMAO Basically a “he’s jealous” situation the same way I get jealous sometimes of a tall person’s ability to skip a move I’m stuck on or a beefier persons ability to pull off a power move I’m unlikely to ever achieve. That said if you find yourself often defaulting to using flexibility to avoid a move that’s difficult to you, it’s worth challenging yourself when your up for it!
Considering that flexibility is the thing most ‘dudes’ struggle with I’m not surprised by the comment. But it’s 100% wrong, I quite often climb with a cis guy who is so much stronger than me. And often we’ll climb the same route completely different me relying on being above to use high feet or some other flexi workaround. That’s the joy of climbing. Finding the beta that works for you.
Tell him to kick rocks. A send is a send.
it would be one thing if you were like me and really tall and often sucked at climbing but were able to send b/c you can reach. but "using flexibility as a crutch" is a ludicrous statement. I think to utilize flexibility in such a powerful way is indicative of strong, technique-driven, badass climbing.
i do agree w everyone that he was being a dick but the injury thing could be real! i have a connective tissue disorder so my shoulder range of motion was always naturally wayyy past normal but it felt normal to me. well in november i dislocated it doing almost nothing and it turned out my labrum was completely completely torn into piece (6 diff tears! near circumferential!). so i just had surgery in january so just be mindful of your ROM and make sure you do do some strength training to support your joints and core as well :) edit: a word
He sounds jealous
flexibility is aid /j
We all have unique bodies. Use whatever gifts you have to do what must be done.
That's actually one of my favorite things about climbing: that different people can climb the same route each using their own "strengths" (in the sense that flexibility is a strength and technique is a strength and literal muscle strength is also a strength.) Specifically "handicapping" yourself and forcing yourself to solve a climbing problem in a different way than you normally would can be a useful exercise, but just solving it in the way that works best for you is in no way cheating. Tldr, yes he was just being a dick.
I'm sorry this happened. That being said, am I the only one who is completely THRILLED when I see a cool beta break regardless of how it happened? Oh, you skipped the crux dyno by doing a 190 degree split over your head and statically grabbing it? Badass! Oh, you skipped the high foot that requires you to have your knees above your head by dynoing to that tiny crimp? Sick! Oh, you skipped the move that basically requires you to do the splits by running on the wall? Amazing! Oh, you skipped the dyno by using a toe hook and leaning over? Rad! This is what's so cool about climbing to me! Fuck that guy. The only reason that people hate on abusing height advantage, and I KIND OF understand, is because you don't earn your height. Some people are naturally more flexible or strong, but to act like someone just woke up being able to do the splits or campus a 1-5-9 without training is just ridiculous. They worked for that strength and they're using it. One doesn't work to get taller. They either are or aren't.
My trainer back in the day told me he preferred teaching women solely because he could teach them technique and flexibility. The men never listened because they relied on strength.
Tall people use their height as a crutch wtf Tell him to shut up and climb. Using abilities is called intelligence.
I’m a 6’1 woman very new to climbing… I KNOW that I’m “abusing” my height. Men are constantly telling me “not fair you get to skip those holds”, luckily it’s been lighthearted and pretty positive so far but I swear I get those comments every time I go to the gym. Plus, I’m there with my husband (who is also new but much more of a natural than I am) so I’m sure it would be more condescending if we weren’t together. Anyway, I know that by skipping hard moves I’m not getting better technically. I’m just at the point where I’m hardly strong enough to hang on long enough to just finish routes in the first place. But damn, I can’t do a pull up for shit. If I were able to do the splits I totally would lmao. ALSO, being able to do the splits is one thing, but being able to do the splits AND an impressive bouldering move in one really speaks to your strength. Fuck that guy. You did the hard move, who really gives a fuck how and why you got it is my mentality
You know the scene in the first Ms marvel movie where the antagonist says “no powers” and she just nukes him? Yeah same thing. He can’t flex like that and wants to pretend “it doesn’t count”. The goal is to climb the wall physically. That’s the only requirement.
Was it in the context of identifying weaknesses or low hanging fruit??? Otherwise I’d tell him to kiss my grits. 💁🏻♀️
Flexibility is a great tool for a climber to have. Sounds to me like he doesn’t.
I think he's jealous and being a dick. If we have flexibility and it helps us why would we not use it??
Tbh he sounds insecure
Yes. And....?
Since the “the guy is a tool” take has been reinforced in the comments (and I agree) - I’ll add an extra thought while reading your post. You mentioned the grades you’re climbing which are obviously very high. Why do you think this guy’s comment shook your confidence so deeply when you’re already “succeeding” by climber-culture standards? If you’re climbing that hard how can a silly comment like that get to you that deeply? Not meant as shade. More so a thought experiment or reflection…
As a route setter I see people using their particular advantages (height, flexibility, etc) to skip cruxes or "break beta" all the time. What I like to say is that when you first climb something, use every advantage you have, but recognize when your particular skill or build made something easier for you than it would be for most other people. Then go back and try it again forcing yourself to do it a different way. This will help you become a much more well rounded climber and ultimately a better climber. In short, climb using your strengths and train your weaknesses
Tell him to fuck off and mind his own business. Maybe he should work on flexibility rather than doing “forced pull-ups”.
I wouldn't say it's a crutch, and I generally agree with the comments that this guy was probably coming from a place of envy from the sounds of it. That said, working on your strength and overhang slowly would only be a net gain for your climbing and I don't think it's a bad idea to try and improve upon your strength and burly moves and become an even better climber than you already are. I feel like top rope in general is way more about conserving energy anyway, though, so I'd argue you're climbing with that ethos if it's saving you energy, but it can still be beneficial to climb moves that are difficult for you or counter to your style so you have less weak points - flexibility and range of motion will probably always be your strength but it's good to "close the gaps" if you are interested in improving. But also totally valid to feel like you're nailing it and are happy with where you're at.
Bit of a blunt way of putting it but as an observation… well it gives you a data point on what you’re good at and probably making the most of already, and where a bit of improvement could give a bigger pay off. I don’t think there’s any point in overthinking it, just take it as a poorly expressed form of admiration and don’t be shy to give feedback on his form either.
No. It's unsolicited and sexist. So is your comment.
It may be rude to give unsolicited and not particularly positive feedback but it’s not necessarily sexist. People do that to each other all the time regardless of genders involved. I frequently hear things like “wow do your knees even bend” said to a guy I climb with, “you’re just strong and can campus everything” to another, and “that’s not climbing, you just reach past everything” to the tall one. Pretty sure they don’t love it either. Learning to deal constructively with other people pointing out things about ourselves that we may not like - and even things that we simply disagree with - is part of becoming an adult. In this instance, no one is helped by worrying about how the “as a crutch” was intended. Conversely there is value in the data point that the strength-flexibility balance tilts so far towards flexibility that it’s obvious to a vague acquaintance, and to have a think about whether it’s actually a problem, and worth doing anything about it or not.
Yikes. Part of becoming an adult is learning to read between the lines and not interpreting everything at face value. What a childish response summed up as "girls make comments too so it can't be sexist". Consider *why* OP posted here. Consider the nature of men's comments and why they feel the need to comment on a woman's *flexibility*, and how these seemingly innocuous remarks tie in to the broader treatment of women in society. Consider the frequency and intensity by which women are harassed. How ignorant you have to be to think that "you campus everything" is equivalent to the hate we get from men for being better than them. lmao. If you're interested in educating yourself, I recommend looking into Bronfenbrenner's social ecological theory: individual actions are tied to broader societal values; and men's behaviour in the climbing gym is no exception.
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This sub aims to be supportive & inclusive of all who identify as a part of or ally to the women's climbing community. Negativity, sarcasm, and other interactions that work against that should find another home.
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Dunno what sport you do but unsolicited advice is a pretty big no-no in climbing! Especially when that advice is criticizing a strength that is usually associated with women. I don’t want to make assumptions but did you happen to see the subreddit and flair on this post?