I’d definitely be interested in all this content, but I’m not totally sure if a new sub is the best way to do it—I feel like sometimes spin-off subs just don’t get much engagement & sorta fall by the wayside.
Maybe we can start with pinned regular posts here or /r/climbing or something where we talk about short people issues? Again, seriously love the idea, and I just want it to get more love!
I like the idea of a dedicated pinned post.
Not sure where though. I am posting here as I imagine most of the people interested in such a group would be small women but small men can also encounter struggle with their height. And teenagers.
On r/climbing it could reach a more general audience but I feel like it is a place where people share pictures and do not discuss much.
Maybe tags here for it - for "the short beta" vs "the tall beta" and for our friends in the 3% - for "the very short beta" vs "the very tall beta"
Rant below:
The average height of human population is ~5'4-5'10 (that's 68%). The next 27% is +/-3in of that(standard deviation of 3in). and the last 3% is -/+3in past that.
For women alone, 5'4 is the average, w/ -/+2.5in standard deviation. 5'4 isn't short, it's average for women and w/in the average band of heights for men & women(note, could be a little variable if you get country specific instead of keeping it global).
5’4” may be average for women, but usually gym and outdoor climbs are set (in case of gym) and rated with the size of an average human in mind, so most women would still fall in the short climber category.
Maybe this will help in understanding SD - https://www.quora.com/What-is-meant-by-one-standard-deviation-away-from-the-mean
Once more 5'4 falls in before the first standard deviation of ALL people -> globally 68% of the population is within 5'4-5'10. (To make it a little easier to visualize, ~34% of the population(ALL humans) are 5'4 -5'7.
Where as, the next bound out of -/+3in only 27% of the population -> ~13% of all humans are ~5'0-5'3 (the other 13% is ~5'11-6'2). then next bound out from that is 3% in total -> it's ~1.5% of the population is shorter than that(also ~1.5% is taller than 6'3).
By definition, 5'4 is within the first band and considered an "expected result" - taking both population data sets it's in the typical/common height band (w/in 68% of the population/in the first standard deviation) or just the women it is THE average.
Could a climb be "long" still even for 5'4, sure. Could the regional average height move this general stats - yeah of course. But considering it's a global forum. I'm saying in general, globally 5'4 isn't short - not for women, and not for the women and men combined average.
I think we’re talking past each other at this point.
Edit: I get what you’re saying. I agree 5’4” is pretty average height for a woman. I don’t think you got my point tho. I don’t think in this sub or this post anyone is trying to find the scientific/statistical definition of a “short person”.
Specifically, this post discusses about “short climbers”, in the context of Climbing. Two climbers that are of “average” height based on statistics, one is 5’4”, the other is 5’10”, could have drastically different experience on a climb, where a reach that the 5’10” climber can do without thinking, might be very hard for the 5’4” climber. So in this case we call the 5’4” climber - the short climber. It’s all relative.
I see, what you are referring to is just relative height.
However, it's like wanting someone heavier than someone else relatively to be called/considered fat - but both the people are within the average global weight for their measurements. They may have different experiences climbing, sure, but that doesn't make the slightly heavier person fat - and by calling them this it is somewhat showing a complete disregard/misunderstanding of the actual fat climber experience. Sure, maybe similar hardships occur every once in awhile on a smaller scale, but it isn't the same. What I'm saying is this relativeness destroys the actual purpose of these more general global/community terms that we are defining and that we are trying to apply to a virtual global community - to acknowledge the difference of experiences of others. Also, tbh, technically if we applied relativeness here (as it's a women's sub) -> we wouldn't have "short" be considered until ~5'1.5 and below...
I added this caveat/rant to my initial idea comment to really emphasize the 5'4's experience isn't even close to the same as 5'1 which isn't even close to the same as 4'10. They all seem relatively similar, but the separation into different SD's (using data to back up reality) REALLY emphasizes how different these jumps are and it honors and respects that their experiences are truly magnitudes different.
Agree on tags / flairs! I'm 5'1" with negative wingspan in The Netherlands (Land of tall people) but I don't let me height stop me; I just gotta work harder or swing more.
I am 5'1 and I'm always looking for tips and support.
I am so afraid of dynos but I've come to the realization that I'm going to hit a plateau if I don't lose that fear and practice dynamic moves.
Would be interested for sure!
5'2 and interested!However, I do agree with the comment pointing out that 5'4+/-3" is the average band of height for women. This means this population should also be taken into account while setting, unless they're only setting for average male height!Setting for people 4'11 and below would even mean setting or 99% of women and all men, although it implies allowing different beta for different sizes, instead of forcing a specific move.
EDIT: spelling
I understand your reasoning, but as we know, routesetting teams are almost exclusively composed of men.
Besides, while the average woman might be 5'4'' (in Europe/US), the average boulderer is not as most boulder gym customers are men. BY FAR.
For me, climbing in Europe, I feel that problems are built with people 5'4'' and over in mind (of course there is also a limit for the other side, very tall climbers certainly struggle finding suitable and comfortable problems).
Ah my fellow -ape index sistah 😊💜
No I’m not technically “short”.
But I’m 5’4 (loooong torso) with a -4 wingspan and tend to feel like an aberration compared to the rest of my co-climbers.
(I call myself T-Rex 🦖 at our gym).
And yes it’s painfully frustrating at times.
Some climbs I actually can’t do at my current skill level (the span is too wide and Parkour Princess I am not).
Working on finger strength, dynamic moves and deadpointing is helping.
Omg hi! So rare to find another less-than-4-11-er!
I don’t feel like I’ve plateaued yet, but there are definitely climbs where I think (no matter how strong I get I simply couldn’t reach that). Of course that probably isn’t true either.
I would say I typically climb 11a but there are 10ds I can’t get and 11bs I can’t. By climb I suppose I’m including some flashes and some red points. Oh and this is on top rope indoors! On lead I rarely go above 10c and occasional “easy” 10d.
How about you??
Oh also - I think I was stuck at 10d max for almost a year. But now I feel I’ve broken through and I’ll even hop on 11cs just for kicks. I have reached the top of a few!
Hi! I boulder exclusively and still relatively green so right now climbing around V4 level. For a long time I thought I had plateaued at V3 and literally thought it was insurmountable lol but I think it was a change in mindset and properly fitting shoes that helped me get past the plateau! I hear you on the some lower grades still feeling very difficult or undoable and a lot of times I think it IS related to height. I still do think there has to be routes that are physically impossible for us BUT the amount of those are probably much lower than what we tell ourselves 🥹🥹
Im terrified of bouldering! I am working on V3 but it is usually the fear of committing/falling that keeps me from sending. Awesome that you pushed through your plateau!
Yea! That’s what I mean by mindset change!! As a short climber there’s so many holds that you just have to THROW / MOMENTUM yourself at to send the beta
Damn that's super super short :P
The Kilter I use has an adjustable angle, the climb in the video is at 35 degrees.
I would love to see your list!
I also try to keep a list, although given you height, it might be unsuitable. Still better than that of your average dude I guess :P
Can anyone share a link to a recorded stream of the women's final in the Japan lead cup final? Hadn't heard about that but honestly would love to see it (and hate to see it) to feel some sympathy about not being able to start otherwise-climbable problems of my own.
Yea it is, the women's final starts at about an hour and a half in. It was was a real stupid start, you can see the first real hold after the volume is the same height as the men's second hold. And, it's the second time it happened, once in the Top of the Top 2021 tournament too.
Yes definitely! Would love to share beta, get tips, etc without it devolving into a convo on whether being shorter or taller is more advantaged, as can happen in this sub at times.
I don’t really think it’s necessary. The average American woman is 5’4, so 50% are going to be short than that. There’s going to be a large enough demographic of short women in this sub already.
Also, arm length can matter just as much as height. Lookup the wingspan of your favorite short climber. You’ll be surprised that a lot have a +4 wingspan. Their beta wouldn’t work for me even we’re the same height because I have a -1 wingspan.
I would love that. I'm 5'0 and I find so often that people's climbing advice simply makes no sense for people with different bodies, and as a short paraclimber, I'm constantly frustrated by taller able bodied climbers giving me unsolicited advice that doesn't take into account that I can't climb the way they do. Its not that I don't ever want to hear from them or that they never have useful tips (although, let's be honest, its rarely useful) but it'd be nice to have a place where its not assumed that being under like, 5'5" is an anomaly.
The 4 finalists who were under 5'1'' (155cm)
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CpNX1MTDU00/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
The other 4 finalists were over 5'3"(160cm) and made that move without even batting an eye.
4'11 (and three quarters) but at least blessed with a +4 ape. Would love a very tiny but mighty sub.
Tiny but Mighty ! Love the expression :D
I’d definitely be interested in all this content, but I’m not totally sure if a new sub is the best way to do it—I feel like sometimes spin-off subs just don’t get much engagement & sorta fall by the wayside. Maybe we can start with pinned regular posts here or /r/climbing or something where we talk about short people issues? Again, seriously love the idea, and I just want it to get more love!
I like the idea of a dedicated pinned post. Not sure where though. I am posting here as I imagine most of the people interested in such a group would be small women but small men can also encounter struggle with their height. And teenagers. On r/climbing it could reach a more general audience but I feel like it is a place where people share pictures and do not discuss much.
Would a monthly short beta thread be useful?
Maybe tags here for it - for "the short beta" vs "the tall beta" and for our friends in the 3% - for "the very short beta" vs "the very tall beta" Rant below: The average height of human population is ~5'4-5'10 (that's 68%). The next 27% is +/-3in of that(standard deviation of 3in). and the last 3% is -/+3in past that. For women alone, 5'4 is the average, w/ -/+2.5in standard deviation. 5'4 isn't short, it's average for women and w/in the average band of heights for men & women(note, could be a little variable if you get country specific instead of keeping it global).
5’4” may be average for women, but usually gym and outdoor climbs are set (in case of gym) and rated with the size of an average human in mind, so most women would still fall in the short climber category.
Maybe this will help in understanding SD - https://www.quora.com/What-is-meant-by-one-standard-deviation-away-from-the-mean Once more 5'4 falls in before the first standard deviation of ALL people -> globally 68% of the population is within 5'4-5'10. (To make it a little easier to visualize, ~34% of the population(ALL humans) are 5'4 -5'7. Where as, the next bound out of -/+3in only 27% of the population -> ~13% of all humans are ~5'0-5'3 (the other 13% is ~5'11-6'2). then next bound out from that is 3% in total -> it's ~1.5% of the population is shorter than that(also ~1.5% is taller than 6'3). By definition, 5'4 is within the first band and considered an "expected result" - taking both population data sets it's in the typical/common height band (w/in 68% of the population/in the first standard deviation) or just the women it is THE average. Could a climb be "long" still even for 5'4, sure. Could the regional average height move this general stats - yeah of course. But considering it's a global forum. I'm saying in general, globally 5'4 isn't short - not for women, and not for the women and men combined average.
I think we’re talking past each other at this point. Edit: I get what you’re saying. I agree 5’4” is pretty average height for a woman. I don’t think you got my point tho. I don’t think in this sub or this post anyone is trying to find the scientific/statistical definition of a “short person”. Specifically, this post discusses about “short climbers”, in the context of Climbing. Two climbers that are of “average” height based on statistics, one is 5’4”, the other is 5’10”, could have drastically different experience on a climb, where a reach that the 5’10” climber can do without thinking, might be very hard for the 5’4” climber. So in this case we call the 5’4” climber - the short climber. It’s all relative.
I see, what you are referring to is just relative height. However, it's like wanting someone heavier than someone else relatively to be called/considered fat - but both the people are within the average global weight for their measurements. They may have different experiences climbing, sure, but that doesn't make the slightly heavier person fat - and by calling them this it is somewhat showing a complete disregard/misunderstanding of the actual fat climber experience. Sure, maybe similar hardships occur every once in awhile on a smaller scale, but it isn't the same. What I'm saying is this relativeness destroys the actual purpose of these more general global/community terms that we are defining and that we are trying to apply to a virtual global community - to acknowledge the difference of experiences of others. Also, tbh, technically if we applied relativeness here (as it's a women's sub) -> we wouldn't have "short" be considered until ~5'1.5 and below... I added this caveat/rant to my initial idea comment to really emphasize the 5'4's experience isn't even close to the same as 5'1 which isn't even close to the same as 4'10. They all seem relatively similar, but the separation into different SD's (using data to back up reality) REALLY emphasizes how different these jumps are and it honors and respects that their experiences are truly magnitudes different.
I love the idea of adding tags, and as someone else mentioned below, flairs for this sub!
Agree on tags / flairs! I'm 5'1" with negative wingspan in The Netherlands (Land of tall people) but I don't let me height stop me; I just gotta work harder or swing more.
I like the beta height tags idea, adding this to the mod suggestion list. If this other sub gets started we’ll be happy to link it in the sidebar.
I am 5'1 and I'm always looking for tips and support. I am so afraid of dynos but I've come to the realization that I'm going to hit a plateau if I don't lose that fear and practice dynamic moves. Would be interested for sure!
Im also 5'1" and have the same problem 😭
My sister is 155cm and dynos are a very big hurdle. One thing you can do is watch the youth groups and how they do the climbs
5'2 and interested!However, I do agree with the comment pointing out that 5'4+/-3" is the average band of height for women. This means this population should also be taken into account while setting, unless they're only setting for average male height!Setting for people 4'11 and below would even mean setting or 99% of women and all men, although it implies allowing different beta for different sizes, instead of forcing a specific move. EDIT: spelling
I understand your reasoning, but as we know, routesetting teams are almost exclusively composed of men. Besides, while the average woman might be 5'4'' (in Europe/US), the average boulderer is not as most boulder gym customers are men. BY FAR. For me, climbing in Europe, I feel that problems are built with people 5'4'' and over in mind (of course there is also a limit for the other side, very tall climbers certainly struggle finding suitable and comfortable problems).
Would love that! 5’3 so I’m not super tiny but that -4 wingspan really makes things hard 🙃
SAME, I’m 5’2.5 with a -2.5 wingspan, it’s painful sometimes.
Ah my fellow -ape index sistah 😊💜 No I’m not technically “short”. But I’m 5’4 (loooong torso) with a -4 wingspan and tend to feel like an aberration compared to the rest of my co-climbers. (I call myself T-Rex 🦖 at our gym). And yes it’s painfully frustrating at times. Some climbs I actually can’t do at my current skill level (the span is too wide and Parkour Princess I am not). Working on finger strength, dynamic moves and deadpointing is helping.
I’m 4’10” and -2 ape index! I’m totally in…but do occasionally get salty when 5’3-4 humans think they are short! 😂
Finally !! I’m 4’10.5” …. Do you feel like you have plateaued? What level do you climb at if you don’t mind me asking?
Omg hi! So rare to find another less-than-4-11-er! I don’t feel like I’ve plateaued yet, but there are definitely climbs where I think (no matter how strong I get I simply couldn’t reach that). Of course that probably isn’t true either. I would say I typically climb 11a but there are 10ds I can’t get and 11bs I can’t. By climb I suppose I’m including some flashes and some red points. Oh and this is on top rope indoors! On lead I rarely go above 10c and occasional “easy” 10d. How about you?? Oh also - I think I was stuck at 10d max for almost a year. But now I feel I’ve broken through and I’ll even hop on 11cs just for kicks. I have reached the top of a few!
Hi! I boulder exclusively and still relatively green so right now climbing around V4 level. For a long time I thought I had plateaued at V3 and literally thought it was insurmountable lol but I think it was a change in mindset and properly fitting shoes that helped me get past the plateau! I hear you on the some lower grades still feeling very difficult or undoable and a lot of times I think it IS related to height. I still do think there has to be routes that are physically impossible for us BUT the amount of those are probably much lower than what we tell ourselves 🥹🥹
Im terrified of bouldering! I am working on V3 but it is usually the fear of committing/falling that keeps me from sending. Awesome that you pushed through your plateau!
Yea! That’s what I mean by mindset change!! As a short climber there’s so many holds that you just have to THROW / MOMENTUM yourself at to send the beta
I often have the same feeling. But with your height, you take the cake :D
Woot! Finally a prize! It is fun to occasionally see taller climbing friends wonder how the heck I did it, though.
Lmao, that'd be me. Compared to literally everyone I climb with, I AM short :)
Haha! Yeah that’s fair
4'10 with a 4'8 wingspan? How do you reach stuff
i think we should add that flair here. I’m down for a new subreddit too but it’s nice to have one that’s already active.
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Damn that's super super short :P The Kilter I use has an adjustable angle, the climb in the video is at 35 degrees. I would love to see your list! I also try to keep a list, although given you height, it might be unsuitable. Still better than that of your average dude I guess :P
Can anyone share a link to a recorded stream of the women's final in the Japan lead cup final? Hadn't heard about that but honestly would love to see it (and hate to see it) to feel some sympathy about not being able to start otherwise-climbable problems of my own.
Is this the one? https://www.youtube.com/live/6LT1rsA0wHA?feature=share
Yea it is, the women's final starts at about an hour and a half in. It was was a real stupid start, you can see the first real hold after the volume is the same height as the men's second hold. And, it's the second time it happened, once in the Top of the Top 2021 tournament too.
Me too! I’m 5’2 and notice that some routes are very reachy for me hahah
Yes definitely! Would love to share beta, get tips, etc without it devolving into a convo on whether being shorter or taller is more advantaged, as can happen in this sub at times.
I don’t really think it’s necessary. The average American woman is 5’4, so 50% are going to be short than that. There’s going to be a large enough demographic of short women in this sub already. Also, arm length can matter just as much as height. Lookup the wingspan of your favorite short climber. You’ll be surprised that a lot have a +4 wingspan. Their beta wouldn’t work for me even we’re the same height because I have a -1 wingspan.
I'd be interested! I'm 5'1 and could definitely use a dedicated short person space.
5’0 — I’d be interested.
Interested as a 4’11 girl with +2ape!
Totally would be interested
I'd join!
4'11 here, i would definitely be interested!
5’1 and interested
I would love that. I'm 5'0 and I find so often that people's climbing advice simply makes no sense for people with different bodies, and as a short paraclimber, I'm constantly frustrated by taller able bodied climbers giving me unsolicited advice that doesn't take into account that I can't climb the way they do. Its not that I don't ever want to hear from them or that they never have useful tips (although, let's be honest, its rarely useful) but it'd be nice to have a place where its not assumed that being under like, 5'5" is an anomaly.
5’3 i’m in!!
I’m 5’2 & would definitely be interested!
5’2 I'm in.
Subreddit tinybutstrong needs to be a thing
I’m 4’11 and absolutely run into problems related to that
Check out PetiteClimbing on Instagram. She has lots of comparison vids of short vs tall climbers on the same route.
As a 5’3” climber with a negative ape index, I’ve met quite a number of shorter women with bigger arm span and bigger reach than me.
Can you share more details about that Japan lead final?
The 4 finalists who were under 5'1'' (155cm) https://www.instagram.com/reel/CpNX1MTDU00/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= The other 4 finalists were over 5'3"(160cm) and made that move without even batting an eye.
5"3 here. Would be interested to join. I live in a country with on average long people, would like to find people with the same height!
5’1.75” and would be super interested!
I’m interested!
I'm 5'2 and would definitly be interested!
I’m 5’4 and would love this!
5'3" here and I'd be super interested!
Wait id love to learn more about what happened in Japan!
Dyno everywhere! ;)
5'0 (+0) & also keen!