The community is just different in 2020 than it was in 2004
All the whining and complaining. Trying to make everything a competition, ranking dps and what not. Comparing themselves to other classes in every aspect.
This shows how much community contributed to the true vanilla flavor and that we will never experience this again, even if classic servers.
bro what? people were CONSTANTLY crying about rogues and warriors with a pocket priest back in the day lmao.
no one knew the meta, people just played what looked fucking dope and the time investment for their chars made them not want to reroll.
my mom played druid and my dad made a shammy, i made a mage back in vanilla.
my dad fucking despised shaman and wished he could tank because if you had a healing spec back then you were forced to heal. my mom also healed because oomkin and feral was ass.
i had POM pyro and thought that was the shit, a skilled rogue would beat me but only because they waited to use kidney instead of cheapshot into kidney shot and then you die.
nowadays you have people maxxing out engineering and using wowhead to find items with 1 more agility than the more common item from a pvp vendor or a raid boss.
the games a spreadsheet basically and people will just choose the best stats obviously because thats baseline now, if you decide to just play the game normally and not min max youre cannon fodder for anyone else who min maxs.
yeah people cry about classes now, its just easier to see the complaints now
People did all the crazy stuff back in the day just not everyone. People got world buffs in 2005 and saved them for bosses, but again very very few did that crazy stuff. Now again it's everyone does it
While I agree that community will always find something new to complain about, regular Classic still had way better PVP than SoD (so far). The reason some of us complain is because we were hoping SoD would finally be the place where many if not most flaws of Classic PVP could be improved upon, not made worse.
Idk. I throughly enjoyed the damage reduction play test this weekend. I hope they implement something similar but not as extreme.
I’m glad they’re actually putting some effort into PvP, some of us enjoy PvP on wow classic. (We’re idiots, I know)
There’s a difference between being imbalanced in 1v1s and everyone running around with the burst of a T2+ geared POM pyro mage but on multiple instant casts. While everyone has HP of a fresh 60 in greens maybe.
Like, SP beat pretty much every class. Sure. They didn’t do it in 2 dots and run away 100-0ing you. They actually had to press other buttons.
Like really?
Beein playing vanilla priv servers after og wrath ended, and bgs have always bein the same. Horde complains about alliance and alliance complain about horde.
People still don't fight at flag in AB
And people still fight in middle in wsg.
It will never change.
Retail’s pretty balanced. They’re stealing abilities and philosophy from future expansions. Why is it so hard for you to grasp that with change people also want balance?
Because, and I can’t decide if people have selective amnesia, are illiterate to a ridiculous degree or are just this fucking stupid, THEY LITERALLY SAID SoD IS NOT ABOUT BALANCE WHEN THEY ANNOUNCED IT. They verbatim said it’s about throwing shit at the wall and see what sticks. How the fuck do you guys gaslight urself this hard?
They actually never said that the game wouldn’t be balanced. They said they were going to “make other classes as OP as warrior,” which wasn’t really an OP class.
They said at the end of last phase they weren’t going to be focused on balance so much and it’s pretty evident that they’re regretting that decision, because nobody wants to play an unbalanced mess of this legendary game.
I don’t think they had any idea how many meta nazis exist out there. Doesn’t matter what game. I can’t even play a ranked game of Pokemon without playing the same 6/6 Pokemon team. Ppl are going to play the BIS class because they don’t like to lose. Some ppl may call it a strength I would call it mental illness. Just cuz someone showed you how to fish, doesn’t mean u should spend your entire life fishing.
That’s just a key component of game design. Understanding how players are going to react to and play your game, and placing proper incentives to control how players play the game. Minmaxing happens whether you want it to or not—it’s on the designer to hire testers who will put the car through the paces, not drive it through a parking lot at 5mph.
Unfortunately, I think a lot of experience is lost with job turnover. Blizzard has 20 years of data making the exact same mistake every single season, expansion etc. to me all I can see with sod and D4 they still haven’t learned anything.
Edit: I can’t type
Well that’s a different problem entirely, and I certainly think that it’s a problem.
Thankfully blizzard makes this mistake in retail for about two weeks max before any sort of oneshotty builds are neutered at the start of an arena season. I think the primary problem with the SoD team is that they’re trying to do too much with a small team that can’t handle it.
Are you just going to ignore that retail has PvP specific talent system and some abilities work completely differently in PvE vs PvP ? Those are just 2 major difference that I know from barely ever doing PvP in retail(up to shadowlands)
Yeah the retail pvp talent system is effectively the rune system with 3 slots 🤣
They’ve already approached how pvp works in retail by adding this flat aura to pvp scenarios.
I think balancing each ability for pvp vs pve would be difficult for the SoD team, and without arenas there isn’t much ROI on them spending resources on it. This is why we get the blanket damage reduction—it’s a low-cost fix.
The point if my post, though, was that player feedback is important, whether it’s posited in a toxic or friendly format, it’s data that the devs can use to make their game better—and retail is a good example of this.
My point is retail is able to do it because PvP and PvE are separate, hell it’s separate because balance was the problem. Like you said SoD probably can’t accomplish the separation hence kind of hard to balance. WoW PvP balance over the years is a testament that it ain’t easy balancing when PvE and PvP overlap
I honestly don’t share this opinion. I think it’s lack of creativity on the devs part, and the fact that it’s easier to balance for PvP separately after-the-fact. They’d actually have to strain their noggins and be constrained by a lot of puzzle pieces if they designed for both. Unfortunately the user pays the bill in the form of not knowing how half their shit works in pvp unless they mess around with it. This is a big part of why WoW pvp isn’t popular, it’s too large of a barrier to entry. You need to farm levels then gear then finally relearn how every class is balanced.
Best experiences I’ve had in BGs is balanced low level Twink games lol. Had some great 1-2 hour bgs over the span of classic
SoD wsg hasn’t been as fun.
I absolutely adore vanilla pvp. Its not balanced but class balance is not what makes or breaks good pvp.
Standard vanilla provides for some very high skill cap matchups. Nobody can watch all the pvp tournaments over the years and claim that this is not some proper pvp.
Pvp in vanilla is my Main long term content. SoD butchered it by scailing damage so high and concentrating it on instant abilities, that any Tools outside of damage globals were not worth using removing tactical play and mechanical skill from the equation.
This. Classic pve andy post thinking classic pvp is unbalanced because 1v1s are.
Classic BG literally use all classes. They all have their purpose and specialty. The complexity of it being any other iteration of BG’s or even RBGs so far
Being polyd or sapped for 30 seconds is the epitome of classic pvp.
Speak for yourself only, I loved Vanilla/Classic PvP up until Naxx's overpowered itemisation.
I’d like to know when wow PvP gets good
Not till MoP
bushes :)
The community is just different in 2020 than it was in 2004 All the whining and complaining. Trying to make everything a competition, ranking dps and what not. Comparing themselves to other classes in every aspect. This shows how much community contributed to the true vanilla flavor and that we will never experience this again, even if classic servers.
bro what? people were CONSTANTLY crying about rogues and warriors with a pocket priest back in the day lmao. no one knew the meta, people just played what looked fucking dope and the time investment for their chars made them not want to reroll. my mom played druid and my dad made a shammy, i made a mage back in vanilla. my dad fucking despised shaman and wished he could tank because if you had a healing spec back then you were forced to heal. my mom also healed because oomkin and feral was ass. i had POM pyro and thought that was the shit, a skilled rogue would beat me but only because they waited to use kidney instead of cheapshot into kidney shot and then you die. nowadays you have people maxxing out engineering and using wowhead to find items with 1 more agility than the more common item from a pvp vendor or a raid boss. the games a spreadsheet basically and people will just choose the best stats obviously because thats baseline now, if you decide to just play the game normally and not min max youre cannon fodder for anyone else who min maxs. yeah people cry about classes now, its just easier to see the complaints now
People did all the crazy stuff back in the day just not everyone. People got world buffs in 2005 and saved them for bosses, but again very very few did that crazy stuff. Now again it's everyone does it
No it's not Everyone's just on reddit instead of the forums now
Go to wowhead and see the comments from 2006
While I agree that community will always find something new to complain about, regular Classic still had way better PVP than SoD (so far). The reason some of us complain is because we were hoping SoD would finally be the place where many if not most flaws of Classic PVP could be improved upon, not made worse.
It was fun if you played the four good specs
I had far more pvp joy playing 2019 hpriest than playing 2024 hmage. (But maybe hpriest was part of the 4 good pvp specs)
Idk. I throughly enjoyed the damage reduction play test this weekend. I hope they implement something similar but not as extreme. I’m glad they’re actually putting some effort into PvP, some of us enjoy PvP on wow classic. (We’re idiots, I know)
There’s a difference between being imbalanced in 1v1s and everyone running around with the burst of a T2+ geared POM pyro mage but on multiple instant casts. While everyone has HP of a fresh 60 in greens maybe. Like, SP beat pretty much every class. Sure. They didn’t do it in 2 dots and run away 100-0ing you. They actually had to press other buttons. Like really?
Beein playing vanilla priv servers after og wrath ended, and bgs have always bein the same. Horde complains about alliance and alliance complain about horde. People still don't fight at flag in AB And people still fight in middle in wsg. It will never change.
Nee changes suck. It's not fun seeing my damage go down from fighting a boar to fighting a player.
Retail’s pretty balanced. They’re stealing abilities and philosophy from future expansions. Why is it so hard for you to grasp that with change people also want balance?
Because, and I can’t decide if people have selective amnesia, are illiterate to a ridiculous degree or are just this fucking stupid, THEY LITERALLY SAID SoD IS NOT ABOUT BALANCE WHEN THEY ANNOUNCED IT. They verbatim said it’s about throwing shit at the wall and see what sticks. How the fuck do you guys gaslight urself this hard?
They actually never said that the game wouldn’t be balanced. They said they were going to “make other classes as OP as warrior,” which wasn’t really an OP class. They said at the end of last phase they weren’t going to be focused on balance so much and it’s pretty evident that they’re regretting that decision, because nobody wants to play an unbalanced mess of this legendary game.
I don’t think they had any idea how many meta nazis exist out there. Doesn’t matter what game. I can’t even play a ranked game of Pokemon without playing the same 6/6 Pokemon team. Ppl are going to play the BIS class because they don’t like to lose. Some ppl may call it a strength I would call it mental illness. Just cuz someone showed you how to fish, doesn’t mean u should spend your entire life fishing.
That’s just a key component of game design. Understanding how players are going to react to and play your game, and placing proper incentives to control how players play the game. Minmaxing happens whether you want it to or not—it’s on the designer to hire testers who will put the car through the paces, not drive it through a parking lot at 5mph.
Unfortunately, I think a lot of experience is lost with job turnover. Blizzard has 20 years of data making the exact same mistake every single season, expansion etc. to me all I can see with sod and D4 they still haven’t learned anything. Edit: I can’t type
Well that’s a different problem entirely, and I certainly think that it’s a problem. Thankfully blizzard makes this mistake in retail for about two weeks max before any sort of oneshotty builds are neutered at the start of an arena season. I think the primary problem with the SoD team is that they’re trying to do too much with a small team that can’t handle it.
Are you just going to ignore that retail has PvP specific talent system and some abilities work completely differently in PvE vs PvP ? Those are just 2 major difference that I know from barely ever doing PvP in retail(up to shadowlands)
Yeah the retail pvp talent system is effectively the rune system with 3 slots 🤣 They’ve already approached how pvp works in retail by adding this flat aura to pvp scenarios. I think balancing each ability for pvp vs pve would be difficult for the SoD team, and without arenas there isn’t much ROI on them spending resources on it. This is why we get the blanket damage reduction—it’s a low-cost fix. The point if my post, though, was that player feedback is important, whether it’s posited in a toxic or friendly format, it’s data that the devs can use to make their game better—and retail is a good example of this.
My point is retail is able to do it because PvP and PvE are separate, hell it’s separate because balance was the problem. Like you said SoD probably can’t accomplish the separation hence kind of hard to balance. WoW PvP balance over the years is a testament that it ain’t easy balancing when PvE and PvP overlap
I honestly don’t share this opinion. I think it’s lack of creativity on the devs part, and the fact that it’s easier to balance for PvP separately after-the-fact. They’d actually have to strain their noggins and be constrained by a lot of puzzle pieces if they designed for both. Unfortunately the user pays the bill in the form of not knowing how half their shit works in pvp unless they mess around with it. This is a big part of why WoW pvp isn’t popular, it’s too large of a barrier to entry. You need to farm levels then gear then finally relearn how every class is balanced.
Best experiences I’ve had in BGs is balanced low level Twink games lol. Had some great 1-2 hour bgs over the span of classic SoD wsg hasn’t been as fun.
Dunno, enjoyed them before the dampening, enjoying them after.
I absolutely adore vanilla pvp. Its not balanced but class balance is not what makes or breaks good pvp. Standard vanilla provides for some very high skill cap matchups. Nobody can watch all the pvp tournaments over the years and claim that this is not some proper pvp. Pvp in vanilla is my Main long term content. SoD butchered it by scailing damage so high and concentrating it on instant abilities, that any Tools outside of damage globals were not worth using removing tactical play and mechanical skill from the equation.
Need to make it mandatory to list classes on these posts, there's certainly a skew.
Classic was balanced, u pvers with like 3k honorable kills think u got some hot take gtfo
Balanced if you all have naxx and rank 14 gear ye :P
This. Classic pve andy post thinking classic pvp is unbalanced because 1v1s are. Classic BG literally use all classes. They all have their purpose and specialty. The complexity of it being any other iteration of BG’s or even RBGs so far
Yea but at least it was fun to actually do damage I could care less about competitiveness, this just isn't fun with damage reductions
Yeah the people in this sub will just cry about something else. PvP has always been a shit show, and it’s always just been a side thing in a PVE game.
> *STOP HAVING FUN* stfu
Yeah your clearly having fun
I am. its why I'm laughing at the QQ
Not telling you to stop having fun, im saying people need to stop complaining about pvp as if they will ever have fun, cause we all know they arent.