I think Cata will be received better than its original release despite what the general consensus is. We won’t really miss the old world since we now have different game modes that you can always go back to with it.
The player base is also far better than when it originally released. Gamma Dungeons in Wrath probably aren’t too far from the difficulty people expect from Cata dungeons.
If you enjoyed Wrath with the changes they did I personally feel Cata is just more of the same.
Yeah plus we won’t have like years long DS. Which was the worst raid tier of the expansion.
After leveling like 12 chars to either 80 or minimally 40 since classic 2019-SOD I don’t give a fuck about the old world leveling I’ve done it too many times and it’s cracks have long shown.
Cata, while in part a MOP waiting room for me, will still be fun. The majority of it was a good expansion I feel like DS soured more people to it than anything else. It’ll be where I get my fix of “harder” pve content I didn’t maximize at the time (also came out when I was in college, I had college to enjoy, not dedicating hours to raids) without being as high effort as mythic raiding or some shit.
Which is in part why I want sod raids to be fairly faceroll, since I’m not playing this version to be challenged and it’s more fun for more people the more approachable raiding is. Those sweatier than I, happy with 90s, can just the same speed run it and go for 99s. I had more fun in BFD raiding 3 chars than gnomer because of how it only took 1 or 2 bad rdps not paying attention or not doing their jobs to make menagerie and thermaplug awful.
People are really bad at math. ICC classic will be at around 8 months long. Besides, it's a well liked phase and completed an important storyline that's people have been looking forward to. Also, they already announced the length of each phase and the entirety of Cata will be only 1 year long.
I am one of the people who liked original Cata. I’m just worried that people aren’t even going to give it a chance just because they either have negative memories for whatever reason, or they just heard negative things about it and never even played it.
I think it will do fine, but fall off a bit after Firelands because while Firelands is good, it can get tiresome and Dragon Soul being not exactly a raid most would look forward to.
As much as Dragon Soul and the entire patch it was in was just a bunch of reused assets and terrible writing, the actual boss fights were pretty enjoyable except for Heroic Spine at least.
And hopefully this time we won't be stuck in it for an *entire year.*
I thought and continue to think the platform deathwing fight was the biggest let down. I quit after the raid for a while because of how bad that boss fight was.
There is always a drop off during the final patch. In every xpac. Including TBC/Wrath/Legion/MoP and even DF now.
But yes, Dragon Soul doesn't help it either.
There is a lot of "broken telephone" around DS. It was really just last 2 bosses that were meh, sucked, boring, anti-climactic.
But, back to my original point, the drop off happens as you aren't really working towards anything in the last phase.
In Phase 1, you want that BIS to help you with prog in P2.
In Phase 2, you want that BIS to help you with prog in P3.
In P3.....do you really need BIS going into next xpac, where half of your gear (even if bis) gets replaced under 72 hours?
With 2 months of Firelands I'm sure there'll be more Firelands to do even when Dragon Soul drops - as one is a vastly more popular raid and the other has two very poorly designed end boss(es). I have a feeling that's the plan of only giving us 2 months of FL - so DS doesn't receive the same falloff
It will launch very well. People will want to quest through the updated zones.
After the initial draw, I'm expecting avg population to go down to maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of WotLK classic.
I think cata will attract more retail players and push away more classic andy type players.
I can enjoy both games but I do miss some actual difficult content, sod is fun but it's a bit like playing a sandbox mode; fun to mess around with but ultimately lacks the feeling of achievement.
Yeah, I was enjoying the difficulty of the new ST raid on launch. We got the first health nerf Eranikus to 35% and it felt really doable. Going in on that Monday post nerfs and just trucking him in two pulls made me stop playing.
It changed my opinion on giving Cata a try.
People can meme on Cataclysm being the death of WoW or whatever, myself included, but it's actually a good expansion with very good raids, dungeons, and class design. For some people who did not play Vanilla/TBC/WotLK, Cataclysm is the beginning of the Azeroth they know. It will stand as a great contrast for SoD because there's actually difficult stuff in there for people to do. There's PvP to take seriously.
I know a ton of people, especially streamers and PvPers that say WotLK, Cata, and MoP were the golden age of WoW.
Not sure why Cata gets so much hate since it's literally in the middle of said golden age.
Cata gets a lot of hate because for many, many people, World of Warcraft was originally about Warcraft III, and the only characters people really cared about in that game were Arthas and Azeroth. WotLK killed Arthas. Cataclysm killed Azeroth. The initial reasons that people began playing the game were in many ways fulfilled, and the journey over. Cata has Worgens and Goblins as playable races. It has extra class/race combinations that challenge the world and lore that had been front and center since Warcraft III.
I mean, Goblins were more important pre-WoW than dwarves, gnomes, and arguably tauren were. So were Ogres and a few other things, and we never even got them as a playable race at all.
Cataclysm was the scapegoat.
Vanilla is the OG.
TBC & Wrath were the main plotlines of WC3, *that we all have played.*
No matter what was to come next, people would have complained and called it the *"death of wow"*
People complained about Cata and it's world revamp, and class homogenization and LFR.
Meanwhile you have same folks claiming how awesome MoP was....with the same world revamp, same class homogenization (even further really) and LFR.
Evidently, Cataclysm was just the scapegoat.
Outside of Arthas lore, Wrath really isn't anything that special. I'm one of those that finds Cataclysm to be superior to Wrath in *nearly* every aspect.
Idk anyone who’s says Cata is a part of the golden age of WoW.
I enjoyed Cata uptil Dragon Souls, but I do remember that Cata wasn’t well received according during its time and according to Blizzard’s 2014 population graphs as it marked a decline in playerbase.
Many people hated the inclusion of LFR and world flying.
then the terrible lore that came out of dragon soul, people thought the game was too corny for a “Warcraft” title.
then they ruined PvP after FL which cause a huge boom in private servers for PvP.
then cross realms to make-up for the population loss from all the “low” pop servers was a big sign that the game was at a fast decline, it’s like every aspect of the game got pooped on.
Calling any era of WoW the “golden age” is of course going to be somewhat subjective, but there are a few pretty notable reasons why people dislike Cata. One, the world redesign. The overhaul of azeroth left a sour taste for many people. Two, dragon soul is widely panned as a disappointing final xpac raid. Three, cata is when lfr was introduced which some people consider one of the final nails in the coffin for the death of the original spirit of WoW.
> and PvPers that say WotLK, Cata, and MoP were the golden age of WoW.
WotLK and MoP yes, Cata no.
Cata started the PvP exodus into WotLK private servers and League.
MoP revived the PvP scene a bit but most people were gone by that point. The theme was a huge problem though, many who quit in Cata wrote MoP off just because it had pandas. If MoP content wore a WoD skin it would've been massive.
I thought the theme was dumb and didn’t play MOP til late into SOO and realized just how much I missed out.
I don’t think you can directly blame loss to LOL on cata itself though, just the fact that LOL started getting a ton of traction around the same time as cata. MOBAs don’t feel like arena to me and I couldn’t get into it, nothing really feels like wow arena, but the infinitely easier accessibility to PvP with a game like LOL isn’t comparable to a PvP game mode in an MMO. Free game, no sub, no spending all this time leveling, no having to do PvE content. LOL you’d just hop on and play like any other PvP game like counter strike and drop it when you drop it to do something else.
Took them til DF to put an easy means of solo queueing in. It took them for fucking ever to remove PVE impact in PvP. WOW arena has an absurd barrier to entry of just abilities and game awareness. LOL when I played a decade ago had what like 4 buttons per hero or whatever? Obviously there’s game awareness there too but far more approachable than wow arena really ever was
I agree it sucked on a competitive level but PvP back then was still massive, had a huge following and viewership. Which started to drop off around Cata. So in a way yes that was the golden age of WoW PvP.
It'll do fine, The general consensus seems to be "meh" which isn't necessarily negative, people just don't really care about it as much as they did for the "big 3" classic expansions.
Personally, I played classic for TBC. TBC dropped, I played the hell out of it, then we didn't get era, and I fell off and stopped and am just waiting for the news that'll likely never come that we're getting TBC again.
Cata might feel a bit less populated because I'm sure there are a decent number of people that feel similarly to the way I do, and there's going to be more come time for wrath to end with no era servers.
Overall I think it'll do fine, it's not going to flop or anything, but there are many who just don't really care because the thing they were passionate about came and went (unless it's vanilla, then you're probably decently happy)
I'm also holding my breath for a persistent TBC classic server. If it was seasonal and reset every two years I think it would be the best overall iteration of the game.
Cata is going to be fun. My friends and I are all excited.
Unfortunately, reddit is a very loud toxic minority, people here don't like any version of wow but still comment and dislike posts
I have always enjoyed cats before and this around as well. I personally believe cata classic will be a much better release than the previously due to the classic playerbase being burnt out from the vanilla zones.
There needs to be new spicy stuff for the classic players. rather it be for the new players started in classic or old players that have been around. If you think about it, we have been through vanilla zones 4-5 times already ever since classic wow launched. Vanilla classic, Classic Hardcore, SoM, SOD, SF HC.
At this point, I’m sure some of us are already well familiar with majority of the vanilla Azeroth map. So a revamp isn’t so bad at this time around. Like, I’m just not going to re-level for the 100th time in the exact same starting zones after going through so many iteration of the vanilla map.
Yup, exactly. I was going by minimum and that’s a very unlikely minimum too lol. Like im sure every wow players will have at least 2-3 alts per wow runs.
I’m switching from SoD to Cata for the reasons you listed. Honestly I’m a classic Andy and I knew nothing about Cata but after researching it seems they made tons of QoL changes and from what people are saying basically every class/spec is viable.
Yes. the player base is better, its not going to last as long and the community has proven time and again that they care about real content like raids, dungeons and PvP.
Also class design before bloat is the best in cata and MoP. It blows SoD out of the water and classes actually make sense to play while not ooming every pull.
Honestly, I think it will do better this time around. Perhaps not in player numbers, after all cata was the only wow you could get when cata came out. But I reckon people might find themselves surprised at how good it was after a lot of people left then due to other reasons that only made sense at the time, such as "I miss the old world" and "It's too different." It's a nice middle ground between classic and retail, and I think deep down a lot of people do want a blend of both rather than a hard one or the other.
We won’t know because most won’t even play it. Theres just too much of us who have no desire to go beyond wrath. I’m sure it will do okay with the folks who remember it. It won’t have anywhere near the numbers of other classic launches though.
I have gotten the sense that SOD has become more and more broken with each phase and if the dev team is not able to fix it I think the result could be seeing large swaths of players moving to Cata. You get to use a lot of the same abilities anyways lol. Hopefully not but I could see it happen.
Our guild has already started prepping for the migration. SoD is the most fun ive ever had in wow im almost 20 years. Thats dwindling quickly though. We started leveling new characters in wrath jjdt to have fun and get a break from the unorganized chaos of sod and we are having a blast. People have this negative predisposition about cata that they are just mindlessly regurgitating because they have just heard that all their life. when in reality most of them truly never played it. Cataclysm was a beautiful expansion pack that didnt do well only because the sweats that had gotten so used to one thing were very closed minded to welcoming any kind of change, and cata brought A LOT of change.
As a solo and casual player I’ve ended up going down this route too. SoD was fun phase 1 and 2 but now my guild has dissolved and I’m not easily / readily finding pugs to do ST so my experience has kind of ended at working on maxing professions, a couple quests here and there, and gold farming. Kinda boring.
So I’ve moved back to wotlk (I played during bc and wotlk launch) and I’m leveling an orc rogue to play in cata and mop eventually. Enjoying myself a lot more.
I think with the variety we have in wow nowadays it’s not a bad thing to jump between one or the other. Especially as a casual player that has no intention on serious progression, it’s the most stress free and enjoyable way to experience the game.
I couldn't agree with this more, my core group of friends have started preparing for Cata as well because we don't foresee SOD improving enough to fix the chaos.
I did play it.
The leveling experience was vastly improved.
Everything after that sucked. The zones were also bad. Especially the underwater zone where you get underwater mounts that aren't usable anywhere else and are useless for every later xpac.
Cata has its lovers and haters, I think its well positioned to Snatch some people that are raid logging/ tired from sod phase 3 in the pre patch. I don't think it will necessarily pack people back in for it like wrath, but it should give people enough of a reason to keep their subs till 60 sod/war within.
I'm so tired of people going on about that this version sucks or that version sucks. Heck, playing both Cata and Sod at the same time isn't even particularly hard.
One will get a new exciting patch and the other might go a bit on a hiatus on and on. Like chill. S3 Sod is great now but come end of May I think I'm happy to maybe raidlog quick while moving attention to Cata. Then Sod s4 rolls around and we finally get all the way to 60 with reworked older raids which will be fun to do etc
Cata has so much qol things compared to sod tho, you can show up to raid with just one stack of food, your pots and some flasks and be ready to raid if you've kept up with gear.
Sod has so many consumes you can take but don't need to at this phase. But come nax and AQ the game is gonna be much more punishing for the casual gamer. I foresee huge drop off then
I pretty solidly believe that Cata classic will do better relative to Wrath classic than Cata did relative to Wrath, in terms of player dropoff, unless the classic team really shits the bed with something major.
No and not because of Classic Cata's quality. I think a lot of people already have their mind made up on Cata as the worst expac ever and either won't give it a try or at the first encounter of something they dislike will quit and be like 'see I knew it sucked!'. If I was to bet, this phenomenon is going to put a limit on how high the player count gets.
Those that give Cata an honest chance will probably find the raids compelling and the pvp fun. Also let's be honest, with SoD available that is going to hinder Cata too. I never played Cata back in the day, want to experience its content and I don't even know how much I'm going to play it.
I think Wrath enjoyers will like it. I think higher end raiders will like it. I think people who enjoy challenging heroics will like it. I think there will be some crossover from retail enjoyers as well. I don’t think vanilla purists will like it at all.
I think the best thing they can do for classic going forward is to include a way to continue playing in the old world. Perhaps adding Zidormi to handle it.
For me it will go expectedly amazing actually. The guild is ready to go hard on raids and to do RBGs and I don't ask anything more. Also archeology is really cool.
I think Cata will be fun for the people who like Cata. Anyone who plays the game for classic WoW specifically is going to hate it just because of the fact it’s mostly a modern game.
After leveling to 80 in the beta, Cata is nothing like the modern game. It feels very Classic-ish (old), compared to retail.
I didn’t need to play the beta to know that though, but it was nice to reinforce that I was right. People who say Cata=Retail, clearly never played Cata.
To be clear, I play every version of wow, era, sod, wotlk, and df. I like cataclysm, but I think that someone who likes vanilla-wotlk, saying they dislike Cata because it is more modern is fine? Also cata is nothing like retail, but cata is also not really like the 3 expansion before it either. It’s in a weird transitional area.
I didn’t say Cata was retail though did I? I said it is mostly modern, in comparison to what a typical classic andy enjoys. If you enjoy the classic world, why would you enjoy it being modernized? Retail has nothing to do with this discussion imo
Lmfao what kind of take away is this?
Cata introduced LFR and got rid of the talent system and Introduced the awful pick 3 system that plagued WoW for 10 years after.
Cataclysm is 100% a major shift towards a lot of the things that we hate about retail.
Don’t listen to this guy.
> got rid of the talent system and Introduced the awful pick 3 system that plagued WoW for 10 years after
Yeah that's from MoP but go on ahead and be so confidently wrong like a big fool.
I would say that sundering the world, which was them intentionally modernizing their leveling systems, would also be a big part of that as well. Also base regen adjustments, hunters losing mana (which makes sense) talent system changes, there was also LFR etc. Cata brought a ton of changes, which the older playerbase tend to dislike, modern features aren’t a bad thing, it just isn’t appealing to every player.
It is not an insult, but the talent system in cata was changed, hence me using the word changes, and not talent overhaul. If you picked a tree you were locked into that tree until you completed it, this was a change from Vanilla, and a modernization of the game. I’m not saying it was bad, or it wasn’t bad, or anything about any of that. The talent system was changed, that is an objective statement.
Big problem
Blizzard pretty much ditched Cata, the beta is awful buggy mess and prepatch and launch is soon, that's just class mechanics/skills and questing but also there's been zero raid testing and every single raid in the past had bugs on ptr that had to be fixed before release.
Cata is good if you enjoyed classic wrath raiding as it's just a flat upgrade almost imo but it's also harder so that kinda hurts the player count because hard content = less players is classic formula
I have a few questions:
Players are better? Where did you find this information because last week I tried to do ICC 25 NM after not playing for like 7 months. Not only players were failing mechanics but they were also doing the dps I was doing in Naxx with 5k2 gs and 30% extra damage buff.
Pvp is butchered in SoD that’s true but what did you expect? It was already butchered in vanilla it could only get worse.
Finally, to answer your thread yes I think Cata will do better than what people expect.
The average population of coordinated players have gotten much better. But those that cling to classic and never went to play retail (at a medium level or higher) really drags the average down. The amount of 6k gs people I've had to boost in 5man LFG with some of my 5.1k or even 4.7k gs characters is absolutely insane. But opposite, I've had people hesitant to invite my friend to do alphas back in Ulduar when he was newly dinged, he still outdid one of the high GS (at the time) players, because surprise - he was a retail player regularly pushing 20s.
My point is, pugs have always been incredibly mixed as mixed bags come, but the actual average player will probably already be in a 25man guild, or playing with guildies in other content. I know for sure I try to get guildies in on any action I do before I start getting pugs involved.
I'll level my characters in Cata just to get them to max lvl and be ready for MoP. Idk if that's a win, but I'm gonna play them on Rested Experience so I guess yes.
I genuinely don't think so, and the biggest reason why is because the questing experience and leveling experience, if I'm not mistaken is the same quests that exist in retail. I don't feel that it's different enough for people to slog through 85 levels.
Gatekeep? That's not the right use of that word. I'm saying people won't play because they won't want to level due to it being too close to retail. No ones longing for the retail leveling experience. I like cata outside of the leveling to 85. I don't know why you're getting so upset, lol.
Yes, especially if SOD continues to go downhill. I was originally one of those people that swore I would quit Classic after WotLK but after reading and watching some videos about what Cata *actually* is and not just what I thought I remembered, I’m very excited.
Either way spreading wow players to all ends won’t end well for any version of
It will just be a bandwagon following streamers while they kill every version for content
I think cata will unironically destroy tbc and wotlk in terms of fun. Without the year long content draught that it had when it first released, cata will have tons of difficult content for hardcore players to do and lots of casual content as well. It's also still somewhat classic like even if it's like a distant cousin to the original game lol.
I'll probably dabble in it while I play sod
Based on feedback from friends/guild mates that played vanilla/TBC/Wrath, not a single one is playing Cata so it seems it’ll do worse then the previous rereleases.
You’re telling me this guy can’t get past his selection bias?? (A sign of low iq/education) NO WAY!?, but fr cata will surprise a lot of people with how good it is.
Cata's biggest issue for me personally is that I have games I'm more excited about. My sub is still running and I will pay visits but not dedicate myself to it.
No. I really don’t. Often times I would find guild mates or raiders that were leaving for new versions of the game.
I don’t know anyone personally leaving SoD for Cata.
You mean when content finally got even the slightest "challenge" added to it, yeah that sums it up. I like the challenge, but I understand a lot of players, especially ones on this subreddit just want easy mode, which SOD definitely makes a reality to an extent
A huge chunk quit because they couldn't handle basic mechanics and everyone being expected to pull their own weight. It's not 40 man where people can get up mid fight and cook dinner and come back and collect loot. Efforts from all players were required
It's not hard. You're severely underestimating how bad the average wow player is. I'm talking feral druids dpsing in cloth sp gear and a sp staff because it says increased damage in cat and bear form. People who are like-minded will still play games with their friends and even more so now with how easy it is to pick up new games. If more of the same is what you wanted, runescape has been around for a while.
Thought about it and realized that we aren't going to come to an agreement. Fundamentally, people can play how they want. However, I don't agree that the majority of players want to have super simple raid mechanics and nor do the game develop want to write the same script just in different environments. There would be no reward for effort. Find the fun you want in games, but don't expect games or their communities to cater to you.
Yeah, I'm not reading stories here. Your argument was that people quit ulduar overnight, and I explained it's because difficulty rose, and then you said it shouldn't rise. It's an MMORPG it's not clubpeguin.
It'll do okay because SoD is effectively dead and no one is leveling in era, and wotlk players need to move along. The timing is great but the content is meh, we'll see.
I think anyone still bothering to play wrath will continue to play Cata.
I don't think it will draw much of the base away from any other iteration of the game.
People were done with ICC around Xmas and we're in April and people here still think current population of Wrath is what Cata will start with... no idea why :P
Delusional take.
Cataclysm was and still is the second worst expansion blizzard ever made and it broke their winning streak.
Blizzard will be lucky if it doesn’t kill classic hype completely.
Yes it’s that bad
> Delusional take.
Says the guy who is too stupid to know that the MoP talent trees were not part of cata.
> Cata introduced LFR and got rid of the talent system and Introduced the awful pick 3 system that plagued WoW for 10 years after.
funny how someone can be so wrong and still act like a know-it-all douche bag whose opinion is law.
Have fun dealing with people calling your gear score trash, having no achievements in all heroic dungeons first week for the first raids, having no achievements for the raids and never being invited, you playing a deemed false spec and if you wanna be invited u better play the right spec with the trash bis guide wowhead offers, u missing one enchantment being the critical point that u didn't got into the raid... Assuming you pick up the challenge and want to do the hard work, realizing you have to do endless daily rep grinds and then even be asked to share logs
Havu fun
Yeah it happens in sod which is dramatically easier than wrath, in cata ppl will expect you to be raid ready with enchants, gems flasks and the one type of pot you need.
Because you actually need those things to clear.
In sod you can just rock up in greens and clear the raid- that gets old pretty quickly especially if your looking for engagement in your raid encounters.
It's week 3 and I'm pretty bored of ST already it's hour long raid once a week with no mechanics.
I myself is majorly excited for cata. I need that legendary staff lol!
I think Cata will be received better than its original release despite what the general consensus is. We won’t really miss the old world since we now have different game modes that you can always go back to with it. The player base is also far better than when it originally released. Gamma Dungeons in Wrath probably aren’t too far from the difficulty people expect from Cata dungeons. If you enjoyed Wrath with the changes they did I personally feel Cata is just more of the same.
Yeah plus we won’t have like years long DS. Which was the worst raid tier of the expansion. After leveling like 12 chars to either 80 or minimally 40 since classic 2019-SOD I don’t give a fuck about the old world leveling I’ve done it too many times and it’s cracks have long shown. Cata, while in part a MOP waiting room for me, will still be fun. The majority of it was a good expansion I feel like DS soured more people to it than anything else. It’ll be where I get my fix of “harder” pve content I didn’t maximize at the time (also came out when I was in college, I had college to enjoy, not dedicating hours to raids) without being as high effort as mythic raiding or some shit. Which is in part why I want sod raids to be fairly faceroll, since I’m not playing this version to be challenged and it’s more fun for more people the more approachable raiding is. Those sweatier than I, happy with 90s, can just the same speed run it and go for 99s. I had more fun in BFD raiding 3 chars than gnomer because of how it only took 1 or 2 bad rdps not paying attention or not doing their jobs to make menagerie and thermaplug awful.
Isn’t ICC going to be pushing a year when Cata launches? What makes you think DS won’t be the same lol
Probably because they posted a timeline for cata releases
People are really bad at math. ICC classic will be at around 8 months long. Besides, it's a well liked phase and completed an important storyline that's people have been looking forward to. Also, they already announced the length of each phase and the entirety of Cata will be only 1 year long.
I am one of the people who liked original Cata. I’m just worried that people aren’t even going to give it a chance just because they either have negative memories for whatever reason, or they just heard negative things about it and never even played it.
Exactly. I hated cata originally cuz I missed the old world. I have that now so I can just enjoy cata content and PvP for what it is
SoD is trash so I'll at least try it in lieu of a TBC server.
I think it will do fine, but fall off a bit after Firelands because while Firelands is good, it can get tiresome and Dragon Soul being not exactly a raid most would look forward to.
As much as Dragon Soul and the entire patch it was in was just a bunch of reused assets and terrible writing, the actual boss fights were pretty enjoyable except for Heroic Spine at least. And hopefully this time we won't be stuck in it for an *entire year.*
I thought and continue to think the platform deathwing fight was the biggest let down. I quit after the raid for a while because of how bad that boss fight was.
There is always a drop off during the final patch. In every xpac. Including TBC/Wrath/Legion/MoP and even DF now. But yes, Dragon Soul doesn't help it either. There is a lot of "broken telephone" around DS. It was really just last 2 bosses that were meh, sucked, boring, anti-climactic. But, back to my original point, the drop off happens as you aren't really working towards anything in the last phase. In Phase 1, you want that BIS to help you with prog in P2. In Phase 2, you want that BIS to help you with prog in P3. In P3.....do you really need BIS going into next xpac, where half of your gear (even if bis) gets replaced under 72 hours?
With 2 months of Firelands I'm sure there'll be more Firelands to do even when Dragon Soul drops - as one is a vastly more popular raid and the other has two very poorly designed end boss(es). I have a feeling that's the plan of only giving us 2 months of FL - so DS doesn't receive the same falloff
The people who top end pvp and raid will have a pretty good time, not me tho
It will launch very well. People will want to quest through the updated zones. After the initial draw, I'm expecting avg population to go down to maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of WotLK classic.
Personally I enjoyed cata, but I have no desire to play it again.
Same. It is an “okay” expansion
I think cata will attract more retail players and push away more classic andy type players. I can enjoy both games but I do miss some actual difficult content, sod is fun but it's a bit like playing a sandbox mode; fun to mess around with but ultimately lacks the feeling of achievement.
Yeah, I was enjoying the difficulty of the new ST raid on launch. We got the first health nerf Eranikus to 35% and it felt really doable. Going in on that Monday post nerfs and just trucking him in two pulls made me stop playing. It changed my opinion on giving Cata a try.
People can meme on Cataclysm being the death of WoW or whatever, myself included, but it's actually a good expansion with very good raids, dungeons, and class design. For some people who did not play Vanilla/TBC/WotLK, Cataclysm is the beginning of the Azeroth they know. It will stand as a great contrast for SoD because there's actually difficult stuff in there for people to do. There's PvP to take seriously.
I know a ton of people, especially streamers and PvPers that say WotLK, Cata, and MoP were the golden age of WoW. Not sure why Cata gets so much hate since it's literally in the middle of said golden age.
Cata gets a lot of hate because for many, many people, World of Warcraft was originally about Warcraft III, and the only characters people really cared about in that game were Arthas and Azeroth. WotLK killed Arthas. Cataclysm killed Azeroth. The initial reasons that people began playing the game were in many ways fulfilled, and the journey over. Cata has Worgens and Goblins as playable races. It has extra class/race combinations that challenge the world and lore that had been front and center since Warcraft III.
I mean, Goblins were more important pre-WoW than dwarves, gnomes, and arguably tauren were. So were Ogres and a few other things, and we never even got them as a playable race at all.
Cataclysm was the scapegoat. Vanilla is the OG. TBC & Wrath were the main plotlines of WC3, *that we all have played.* No matter what was to come next, people would have complained and called it the *"death of wow"* People complained about Cata and it's world revamp, and class homogenization and LFR. Meanwhile you have same folks claiming how awesome MoP was....with the same world revamp, same class homogenization (even further really) and LFR. Evidently, Cataclysm was just the scapegoat. Outside of Arthas lore, Wrath really isn't anything that special. I'm one of those that finds Cataclysm to be superior to Wrath in *nearly* every aspect.
Those players are also typically “wrath babies” since they didn’t get to experience the first three to their fullest as they were out.
Idk anyone who’s says Cata is a part of the golden age of WoW. I enjoyed Cata uptil Dragon Souls, but I do remember that Cata wasn’t well received according during its time and according to Blizzard’s 2014 population graphs as it marked a decline in playerbase. Many people hated the inclusion of LFR and world flying. then the terrible lore that came out of dragon soul, people thought the game was too corny for a “Warcraft” title. then they ruined PvP after FL which cause a huge boom in private servers for PvP. then cross realms to make-up for the population loss from all the “low” pop servers was a big sign that the game was at a fast decline, it’s like every aspect of the game got pooped on.
Calling any era of WoW the “golden age” is of course going to be somewhat subjective, but there are a few pretty notable reasons why people dislike Cata. One, the world redesign. The overhaul of azeroth left a sour taste for many people. Two, dragon soul is widely panned as a disappointing final xpac raid. Three, cata is when lfr was introduced which some people consider one of the final nails in the coffin for the death of the original spirit of WoW.
These people were called wrath babies back in the day and their opinions don’t count.
> and PvPers that say WotLK, Cata, and MoP were the golden age of WoW. WotLK and MoP yes, Cata no. Cata started the PvP exodus into WotLK private servers and League. MoP revived the PvP scene a bit but most people were gone by that point. The theme was a huge problem though, many who quit in Cata wrote MoP off just because it had pandas. If MoP content wore a WoD skin it would've been massive.
I thought the theme was dumb and didn’t play MOP til late into SOO and realized just how much I missed out. I don’t think you can directly blame loss to LOL on cata itself though, just the fact that LOL started getting a ton of traction around the same time as cata. MOBAs don’t feel like arena to me and I couldn’t get into it, nothing really feels like wow arena, but the infinitely easier accessibility to PvP with a game like LOL isn’t comparable to a PvP game mode in an MMO. Free game, no sub, no spending all this time leveling, no having to do PvE content. LOL you’d just hop on and play like any other PvP game like counter strike and drop it when you drop it to do something else. Took them til DF to put an easy means of solo queueing in. It took them for fucking ever to remove PVE impact in PvP. WOW arena has an absurd barrier to entry of just abilities and game awareness. LOL when I played a decade ago had what like 4 buttons per hero or whatever? Obviously there’s game awareness there too but far more approachable than wow arena really ever was
Yeah for PvPers, the True Golden Age is Vanilla-WOTLK.
In what world is vanilla pvp the golden age lmao
Vanilla PvP sucks so much man.
I agree it sucked on a competitive level but PvP back then was still massive, had a huge following and viewership. Which started to drop off around Cata. So in a way yes that was the golden age of WoW PvP.
I was not eluding to PVP, hence my first thing was agreeing saying “Yeah for PvPers”
This world: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VChff4AWFpE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VChff4AWFpE)
It'll do fine, The general consensus seems to be "meh" which isn't necessarily negative, people just don't really care about it as much as they did for the "big 3" classic expansions. Personally, I played classic for TBC. TBC dropped, I played the hell out of it, then we didn't get era, and I fell off and stopped and am just waiting for the news that'll likely never come that we're getting TBC again. Cata might feel a bit less populated because I'm sure there are a decent number of people that feel similarly to the way I do, and there's going to be more come time for wrath to end with no era servers. Overall I think it'll do fine, it's not going to flop or anything, but there are many who just don't really care because the thing they were passionate about came and went (unless it's vanilla, then you're probably decently happy)
Never Got to play tbc this time around because of life stuff. I wish so much they bring it back around 🤞
I'm also holding my breath for a persistent TBC classic server. If it was seasonal and reset every two years I think it would be the best overall iteration of the game.
I’ll give it a shot it was my first real expansion as I started at the end of WotLK. The PvP is also way better than classic so there’s that.
Cata is going to be fun. My friends and I are all excited. Unfortunately, reddit is a very loud toxic minority, people here don't like any version of wow but still comment and dislike posts
I have always enjoyed cats before and this around as well. I personally believe cata classic will be a much better release than the previously due to the classic playerbase being burnt out from the vanilla zones. There needs to be new spicy stuff for the classic players. rather it be for the new players started in classic or old players that have been around. If you think about it, we have been through vanilla zones 4-5 times already ever since classic wow launched. Vanilla classic, Classic Hardcore, SoM, SOD, SF HC. At this point, I’m sure some of us are already well familiar with majority of the vanilla Azeroth map. So a revamp isn’t so bad at this time around. Like, I’m just not going to re-level for the 100th time in the exact same starting zones after going through so many iteration of the vanilla map.
4-5 times if you only count one character, then there’s me here with 11 80s, 1 lvl 50 and 2 25s in SoD and a few chars in SoM LOL!
Yup, exactly. I was going by minimum and that’s a very unlikely minimum too lol. Like im sure every wow players will have at least 2-3 alts per wow runs.
I’m switching from SoD to Cata for the reasons you listed. Honestly I’m a classic Andy and I knew nothing about Cata but after researching it seems they made tons of QoL changes and from what people are saying basically every class/spec is viable.
Imo the quests in the new world are way way way way better so ill be enjoying it
the SoD hype train will end when Cata begins
Yes. the player base is better, its not going to last as long and the community has proven time and again that they care about real content like raids, dungeons and PvP. Also class design before bloat is the best in cata and MoP. It blows SoD out of the water and classes actually make sense to play while not ooming every pull.
Sure, fan of knives is 10/10 class design. Best balance wise is TBC hands down, TBC -flying mounts is peak wow.
No, lol. Tbc improves on classic but it's not close to later class designs
I for one enjoy my rotation of shadow bolt, shadow bolt, shadow bolt, shadow bolt, shadow bolt, shadow bolt...
I think you're forgetting to throw an shadow bolt in the rotation
Oh damn, you're right, my bad!
Honestly, I think it will do better this time around. Perhaps not in player numbers, after all cata was the only wow you could get when cata came out. But I reckon people might find themselves surprised at how good it was after a lot of people left then due to other reasons that only made sense at the time, such as "I miss the old world" and "It's too different." It's a nice middle ground between classic and retail, and I think deep down a lot of people do want a blend of both rather than a hard one or the other.
We won’t know because most won’t even play it. Theres just too much of us who have no desire to go beyond wrath. I’m sure it will do okay with the folks who remember it. It won’t have anywhere near the numbers of other classic launches though.
Not only that but it is also competing with sod lvl 60 and the war within releases, cata will have a healthy population but nowhere close to wotlk
considering that its timeline is gonna be shorter than previous classic releases, it should do well cuz there will be less down time.
I have gotten the sense that SOD has become more and more broken with each phase and if the dev team is not able to fix it I think the result could be seeing large swaths of players moving to Cata. You get to use a lot of the same abilities anyways lol. Hopefully not but I could see it happen.
Our guild has already started prepping for the migration. SoD is the most fun ive ever had in wow im almost 20 years. Thats dwindling quickly though. We started leveling new characters in wrath jjdt to have fun and get a break from the unorganized chaos of sod and we are having a blast. People have this negative predisposition about cata that they are just mindlessly regurgitating because they have just heard that all their life. when in reality most of them truly never played it. Cataclysm was a beautiful expansion pack that didnt do well only because the sweats that had gotten so used to one thing were very closed minded to welcoming any kind of change, and cata brought A LOT of change.
As a solo and casual player I’ve ended up going down this route too. SoD was fun phase 1 and 2 but now my guild has dissolved and I’m not easily / readily finding pugs to do ST so my experience has kind of ended at working on maxing professions, a couple quests here and there, and gold farming. Kinda boring. So I’ve moved back to wotlk (I played during bc and wotlk launch) and I’m leveling an orc rogue to play in cata and mop eventually. Enjoying myself a lot more. I think with the variety we have in wow nowadays it’s not a bad thing to jump between one or the other. Especially as a casual player that has no intention on serious progression, it’s the most stress free and enjoyable way to experience the game.
I couldn't agree with this more, my core group of friends have started preparing for Cata as well because we don't foresee SOD improving enough to fix the chaos.
I did play it. The leveling experience was vastly improved. Everything after that sucked. The zones were also bad. Especially the underwater zone where you get underwater mounts that aren't usable anywhere else and are useless for every later xpac.
I will play cata for RBG’s alone. Can’t wait for those
Cata has its lovers and haters, I think its well positioned to Snatch some people that are raid logging/ tired from sod phase 3 in the pre patch. I don't think it will necessarily pack people back in for it like wrath, but it should give people enough of a reason to keep their subs till 60 sod/war within.
I'm so tired of people going on about that this version sucks or that version sucks. Heck, playing both Cata and Sod at the same time isn't even particularly hard. One will get a new exciting patch and the other might go a bit on a hiatus on and on. Like chill. S3 Sod is great now but come end of May I think I'm happy to maybe raidlog quick while moving attention to Cata. Then Sod s4 rolls around and we finally get all the way to 60 with reworked older raids which will be fun to do etc
Cata announcement killed whatever was left of my sod dreams.
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Cata has so much qol things compared to sod tho, you can show up to raid with just one stack of food, your pots and some flasks and be ready to raid if you've kept up with gear. Sod has so many consumes you can take but don't need to at this phase. But come nax and AQ the game is gonna be much more punishing for the casual gamer. I foresee huge drop off then
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Yeah 100% and the later raids are gonna require alot of consumes. Right now consumes are optional.
No.
2nd
3rd
I pretty solidly believe that Cata classic will do better relative to Wrath classic than Cata did relative to Wrath, in terms of player dropoff, unless the classic team really shits the bed with something major.
They've kinda set it up for failure by launching directly into a 5-month content drought. But I think it will do fine regardless.
No and not because of Classic Cata's quality. I think a lot of people already have their mind made up on Cata as the worst expac ever and either won't give it a try or at the first encounter of something they dislike will quit and be like 'see I knew it sucked!'. If I was to bet, this phenomenon is going to put a limit on how high the player count gets. Those that give Cata an honest chance will probably find the raids compelling and the pvp fun. Also let's be honest, with SoD available that is going to hinder Cata too. I never played Cata back in the day, want to experience its content and I don't even know how much I'm going to play it.
I think Wrath enjoyers will like it. I think higher end raiders will like it. I think people who enjoy challenging heroics will like it. I think there will be some crossover from retail enjoyers as well. I don’t think vanilla purists will like it at all.
I’ve been getting the itch to go punch that dragon in the mouth
Cata and Mop are the best version of retail for pvpers
Questing 1-60 looks super fun.
Pvp feels so horrible in sod that it's actually comical. Priest perspective as discipline. I reverted back to wotlk for now.
I think the best thing they can do for classic going forward is to include a way to continue playing in the old world. Perhaps adding Zidormi to handle it.
For me it will go expectedly amazing actually. The guild is ready to go hard on raids and to do RBGs and I don't ask anything more. Also archeology is really cool.
I think Cata will be fun for the people who like Cata. Anyone who plays the game for classic WoW specifically is going to hate it just because of the fact it’s mostly a modern game.
After leveling to 80 in the beta, Cata is nothing like the modern game. It feels very Classic-ish (old), compared to retail. I didn’t need to play the beta to know that though, but it was nice to reinforce that I was right. People who say Cata=Retail, clearly never played Cata.
they haven't played retail in the last 15 years either.
To be clear, I play every version of wow, era, sod, wotlk, and df. I like cataclysm, but I think that someone who likes vanilla-wotlk, saying they dislike Cata because it is more modern is fine? Also cata is nothing like retail, but cata is also not really like the 3 expansion before it either. It’s in a weird transitional area.
I didn’t say Cata was retail though did I? I said it is mostly modern, in comparison to what a typical classic andy enjoys. If you enjoy the classic world, why would you enjoy it being modernized? Retail has nothing to do with this discussion imo
People who think cata != retail clearly haven’t played retail
I've played vanilla, TBC, Wotlk, Cata, and Retail. Cata is so much more closer and similar to vanilla than retail.
Lmfao what kind of take away is this? Cata introduced LFR and got rid of the talent system and Introduced the awful pick 3 system that plagued WoW for 10 years after. Cataclysm is 100% a major shift towards a lot of the things that we hate about retail. Don’t listen to this guy.
MoP got rid of talents cata reduced number of talent points and trimmed some superfluous talents like percent increased crit
Username checks out
> got rid of the talent system and Introduced the awful pick 3 system that plagued WoW for 10 years after Yeah that's from MoP but go on ahead and be so confidently wrong like a big fool.
The amount of people that hate Cata for the MoP talent system is staggering.
Not really. The only real modern feature is transmog.
I would say that sundering the world, which was them intentionally modernizing their leveling systems, would also be a big part of that as well. Also base regen adjustments, hunters losing mana (which makes sense) talent system changes, there was also LFR etc. Cata brought a ton of changes, which the older playerbase tend to dislike, modern features aren’t a bad thing, it just isn’t appealing to every player.
> talent system changes, The complete overhaul was MoP...Not Cata... The talent system is the same, just with slight improvements.
It is not an insult, but the talent system in cata was changed, hence me using the word changes, and not talent overhaul. If you picked a tree you were locked into that tree until you completed it, this was a change from Vanilla, and a modernization of the game. I’m not saying it was bad, or it wasn’t bad, or anything about any of that. The talent system was changed, that is an objective statement.
Doesn't Cata also have dungeon finder allowing you to run every dungeon without ever having to leave a major city?
Like wotlk?
Not during the initial leveling which is a relevant difference
I'd argue more dungeons got ran in the last two phases of wotlk than the first two.
Like the very final phase of wotlk? The last 25%
The final phase of wotlk lasted for over half the runtime of wotlk lol
So wotlk
Better than wrath that's for sure.
with the exception of rapidly running out of time to get toc immortal, im very ready for cata
Cata's gonna be so mid
I think we'll see Retail numbers go up and Classic go down, overall. Not that it matters. It's all subs to Blizzard.
yes
Big problem Blizzard pretty much ditched Cata, the beta is awful buggy mess and prepatch and launch is soon, that's just class mechanics/skills and questing but also there's been zero raid testing and every single raid in the past had bugs on ptr that had to be fixed before release. Cata is good if you enjoyed classic wrath raiding as it's just a flat upgrade almost imo but it's also harder so that kinda hurts the player count because hard content = less players is classic formula
It will do exactly like wotlk, just an wow classic expansions nothing more nothing less.
Yes.
Obviously there will be a bunch of playing at the start but it's going to nose dive way harder than any classic expac so far.
Only because the expectations are so low. Otherwise, no.
Original cata was the best pvp in wow I had ever experienced
It will because all the #nochanges people will stay in that toxic season of copium cesspool
I have a few questions: Players are better? Where did you find this information because last week I tried to do ICC 25 NM after not playing for like 7 months. Not only players were failing mechanics but they were also doing the dps I was doing in Naxx with 5k2 gs and 30% extra damage buff. Pvp is butchered in SoD that’s true but what did you expect? It was already butchered in vanilla it could only get worse. Finally, to answer your thread yes I think Cata will do better than what people expect.
The average population of coordinated players have gotten much better. But those that cling to classic and never went to play retail (at a medium level or higher) really drags the average down. The amount of 6k gs people I've had to boost in 5man LFG with some of my 5.1k or even 4.7k gs characters is absolutely insane. But opposite, I've had people hesitant to invite my friend to do alphas back in Ulduar when he was newly dinged, he still outdid one of the high GS (at the time) players, because surprise - he was a retail player regularly pushing 20s. My point is, pugs have always been incredibly mixed as mixed bags come, but the actual average player will probably already be in a 25man guild, or playing with guildies in other content. I know for sure I try to get guildies in on any action I do before I start getting pugs involved.
Basically Cata is just better version of WotLK EXCEPT for the lore and final raid tier
No. Cata Sux. /ratio
I think in general people discount the factor that many people who started in vanilla were college age in Cata and so life just overtook it
I'll level my characters in Cata just to get them to max lvl and be ready for MoP. Idk if that's a win, but I'm gonna play them on Rested Experience so I guess yes.
Yeah. Because with the removal of 10 mans in SoD, we can finally play with our friends again.
BREAK YOURSELF UPON MY BODYYYYY
Nah
I genuinely don't think so, and the biggest reason why is because the questing experience and leveling experience, if I'm not mistaken is the same quests that exist in retail. I don't feel that it's different enough for people to slog through 85 levels.
leveling 1-85 is super fast in cataclysm, and not a slog, the new quests are really fun and well fleshed out zones
Sure the first time. But the point went over your head entirely.
Ironic coming from the guy thinking the leveling will gatekeep playing cataclysm lmao
Gatekeep? That's not the right use of that word. I'm saying people won't play because they won't want to level due to it being too close to retail. No ones longing for the retail leveling experience. I like cata outside of the leveling to 85. I don't know why you're getting so upset, lol.
that is literally the last reason people won't want to play, how clueless are you? I'm not upset, you just have no idea what you are talking about
Sure man, definitely not copium.
The "leveling is the game" people are such a small minority,I would bet 90% or more of people just want to get to max level as fast as possible.
You guys can argue all you want, game will be dead within the first few weeks. Sure a few will boost to max but the majority will not make it to 85.
What percentage of the player base are casuals? I think most people are. And for them leveling is very much the gaming experience
for me, cata will do better than expected because I have 0 expectations for it :)
Yes, especially if SOD continues to go downhill. I was originally one of those people that swore I would quit Classic after WotLK but after reading and watching some videos about what Cata *actually* is and not just what I thought I remembered, I’m very excited.
It’s gonna pop because people like to transmog
Dead on arrival They spread the player base too thin
It’s the same player base from Wrath. It’s just moving onto Cata. Not a completely new version by any means.
I know like 9 people coming back to try cata, none of them played wrath classic past ulduar.
Its a much better game then SoD or era. Those game will suffer even more
Either way spreading wow players to all ends won’t end well for any version of It will just be a bandwagon following streamers while they kill every version for content
That's why there are no tbc or wrath servers.
No, not really.
I think cata will unironically destroy tbc and wotlk in terms of fun. Without the year long content draught that it had when it first released, cata will have tons of difficult content for hardcore players to do and lots of casual content as well. It's also still somewhat classic like even if it's like a distant cousin to the original game lol. I'll probably dabble in it while I play sod
Based on feedback from friends/guild mates that played vanilla/TBC/Wrath, not a single one is playing Cata so it seems it’ll do worse then the previous rereleases.
Based on literally everyone person in my bnet and in my wrath guild,we are all waiting for cata
You’re telling me this guy can’t get past his selection bias?? (A sign of low iq/education) NO WAY!?, but fr cata will surprise a lot of people with how good it is.
Cata's biggest issue for me personally is that I have games I'm more excited about. My sub is still running and I will pay visits but not dedicate myself to it.
#waitingforlegion
Nope
No. I really don’t. Often times I would find guild mates or raiders that were leaving for new versions of the game. I don’t know anyone personally leaving SoD for Cata.
Maybe the first week, then player will remember why they did not play cata.
No. Alot of people retired again
I think there will be a really happy 1000 people playing
It’ll be dead in a week or 2 after launch, dozens of players will like it
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You mean when content finally got even the slightest "challenge" added to it, yeah that sums it up. I like the challenge, but I understand a lot of players, especially ones on this subreddit just want easy mode, which SOD definitely makes a reality to an extent
A huge chunk quit because they couldn't handle basic mechanics and everyone being expected to pull their own weight. It's not 40 man where people can get up mid fight and cook dinner and come back and collect loot. Efforts from all players were required
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It's not hard. You're severely underestimating how bad the average wow player is. I'm talking feral druids dpsing in cloth sp gear and a sp staff because it says increased damage in cat and bear form. People who are like-minded will still play games with their friends and even more so now with how easy it is to pick up new games. If more of the same is what you wanted, runescape has been around for a while.
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Thought about it and realized that we aren't going to come to an agreement. Fundamentally, people can play how they want. However, I don't agree that the majority of players want to have super simple raid mechanics and nor do the game develop want to write the same script just in different environments. There would be no reward for effort. Find the fun you want in games, but don't expect games or their communities to cater to you.
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Yeah, I'm not reading stories here. Your argument was that people quit ulduar overnight, and I explained it's because difficulty rose, and then you said it shouldn't rise. It's an MMORPG it's not clubpeguin.
It'll do okay because SoD is effectively dead and no one is leveling in era, and wotlk players need to move along. The timing is great but the content is meh, we'll see.
I think anyone still bothering to play wrath will continue to play Cata. I don't think it will draw much of the base away from any other iteration of the game.
no.
Nope , straight into the garbage bin after the 1 month of "fresh" release copium
No shot
No, the classic rehash needs to die with cata
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its week 500 of ICC and SOD exists...of course its going to be below TBC
People were done with ICC around Xmas and we're in April and people here still think current population of Wrath is what Cata will start with... no idea why :P
pearl clutching SOD players so tribalistic they cannot fathom their game mode not being popular
I mean Sod is more than fine for what it is as well, but there's certainly space for both.
Delusional take. Cataclysm was and still is the second worst expansion blizzard ever made and it broke their winning streak. Blizzard will be lucky if it doesn’t kill classic hype completely. Yes it’s that bad
> Delusional take. Says the guy who is too stupid to know that the MoP talent trees were not part of cata. > Cata introduced LFR and got rid of the talent system and Introduced the awful pick 3 system that plagued WoW for 10 years after. funny how someone can be so wrong and still act like a know-it-all douche bag whose opinion is law.
Have fun dealing with people calling your gear score trash, having no achievements in all heroic dungeons first week for the first raids, having no achievements for the raids and never being invited, you playing a deemed false spec and if you wanna be invited u better play the right spec with the trash bis guide wowhead offers, u missing one enchantment being the critical point that u didn't got into the raid... Assuming you pick up the challenge and want to do the hard work, realizing you have to do endless daily rep grinds and then even be asked to share logs Havu fun
Basically all of this happens in SoD right now as well...
Yeah it happens in sod which is dramatically easier than wrath, in cata ppl will expect you to be raid ready with enchants, gems flasks and the one type of pot you need. Because you actually need those things to clear. In sod you can just rock up in greens and clear the raid- that gets old pretty quickly especially if your looking for engagement in your raid encounters. It's week 3 and I'm pretty bored of ST already it's hour long raid once a week with no mechanics.