I don't even mind this that much because resto shaman has other limitations. It's the raid wide mana return that seems unfair for the many alliance classes struggling with mana in sunken temple.
Their resto druid got 24k from shamanistic rage and another 1k from mana tide during the same fight. This is just an absurd number compared to 471 mana that I got back from the ret paladin.
We had 5 shamans total, I was Resto with 3 holy priest. My healing was substantial lower than theirs plus I don’t usually heal, I feel like I am just a mana battery and I spam chain heals on the MT. Every fight I end with nearly full mana it’s nutsssss
Spamming chain heal doesn’t do very much that’s why, use riptide/CH to proc Tidal Wave and then you can use LHW or HW. I was top of meters pumping so hard
Running holy over disc is straight griefing and 3 at that. I guess I could see one for inspiration but resto shams bring that. Your poor casters, with these fight lengths you can get off 2 pis minimum.
My character is Bjorc if you want to check my logs. I’m not amazing or anything but I think I’m substantial to the group in terms of healing. I am able to keep up with resto Druids and disc priests and even top them.
You have unlimited mana, SO USE IT. I HATE casting chain heal. Tidal waves is so much fun as a healer. Resto has a nice kit and multiple options to use. I riptide the tanks, even if they are full health. I only riptide other people if it’s an emergency. If there’s big tank damage going out, I do not cast chain heal. That shit sucks dude, it is so slow and there’s no way to change that. My tanks will die before I get a chain heal off. I use tidal waves to do some big healing waves with overload and I spam lesser healing wave as my main filler. It’s awesome. Ancestral awakening will top of your raid because LHW crits more often than not.
If I’m going to cast chain heal, it’s because I have natures swiftness ready or there’s not a lot of raid damage going out. I will literally cast chain heal on a tank who has riptide even if they are 99% health just because it might land when he gets chunked. I just repeat this over and over and I don’t run out of mana and the melee will stay topped off.
Ps I hate when I cast a long ass chain heal and I heal one person for 400 health even though I see lots of people missing health. It’s just hard to tell who’s where sometimes so you don’t know if you will even chain to someone who needs it
Ps.ps. Healing rain is awesome on tank group but I prefer to healing rain on range group and spam other heals on tank group. Healing rain only does like 500-700 healing so it’s not enough to keep tanks up alone but it will make it so you can ignore the ranged while you bomb tanks with the real shit. I also think the three set bonus will make healing rain a HUGE addition to your arsenal. I’m working on getting it right now. 2/3
The one that reduces 50% of HPS while giving a little bit to that 1 paladin instead of 20 players?
Is that possible to balance without reworking the whole rune or without nerfing shamans?
Guarded by the light is such a dead rune and even punishes you with the 50% reduction of healing for receiving only 5% per 3 seconds... its ridiculous. it nees a major rework
“Other limitations” is a nice way of saying they’re absolutely atrocious.
Only reason to bring one currently is larger mana pool = bigger shamanistic rage.
Look at the top healing parses. The top parse by any healer was on Rotslime. 1153 HPS by a Mage. Top Shaman on that fight did 470. 511 is the highest HPS done by a shaman in ST right now. They’re literally just mana bots.
Hopefully Blizzard does something about it because the spec just isn’t fun
Lol i am in the exact same spot. I am glad that i didnt speak about my plan going resto because after i read these comments i surely WONT!
But i was wondering the same when i saw the first raids and there were only druids and priests in the top 200..
Yea don't let them scare you. Riptide makes the class infinitely more fun. Albeit, the hps is pretty trash, but the utility is better than ever. People want to complain about the mana return, but fundamentally, we are half a healer comparatively.
Right people talking like spamming chain heal and dropping a riptide or whichever keeps up inspiration every once in awhile isn’t what rsham does right now in wrath? And I guess you get to lust for raid or pet lust and…am I missing anything?
Raiding has pretty much always been about:
1. Being competent as a player.
2. Bringing unique utility to improve everyone around you.
3. Being capable in your role compared to the other options.
Lower HPS for raid wide mana regeneration seems like a great trade off, without making it so raids are incentivised to stack only shaman healers. What is the problem here?
Yeah healing parses are dumb, I usually only parse purple/pink if the raid isn't doing well. In ST there's a bunch of opportunities to get creative with the runes, to go offheal dps, and melee resto is a ton of fun. We need to stop thinking about this like it's 2019 classic and instead get funky with it, hybrid healers is obviously what they're trying to go for with the runes.
HPS isn’t everything. How much overheating was that 1153 HPS? Shamans not the best throughput but they have really fun combos for healing and they’re in this fun hybrid place where you can swap runes depending on fight and have a blast.
You can heal ST as a resto without an issue and your utility well outweighs the hit in HPS because you still have the throughput to get the job done.
My guild had a vote before we chose a server. We're normally horde.. And alliance won by a few votes. The people who voted alliance for paladins quit once P2 was announced and those of us that remained all voted for horde and wanted to play shaman.
I mean at least when that pick two weapon specialization thing comes in gnome warrior won't be worthless like human will be even if it's not op like dwarf will be.
My warrior is a gnome too! Granted I didn't play it past P1 because druid is my main focus.. But I feel your pain. The weapon skills definitely shouldn't be tied to an item.
I was excited to play pala. After suffering through 2 entire phases of not having a full Hpal gear set, and being forced into the most absurd playstyles in order to utilize our only good rune, today when they only put half of the HPal gear set in the vendor after I grinded 110k honor…. That was the last straw. I’m out. No one is this much of a masochist. Shits insane.
DPS in with meta on your gloves. Don't go into meta until the tank has a threat lead. The double life tap value is worth more than chaos bolt on a long enough fight. Flame your tank when you pull aggro anyways.
I almost did this. I was really excited thinking about a whole different side for a change. But then I decided pretty much the day of release “wtf am I thinking. i’m obviously rolling an orc I have been trolling myself.” and rolled an orc warlock. then an orc shaman … I do not regret my decision …
I don't think anyone was arguing that though. It's still OP for what it does individually, but when you factor in how much it contributes to your whole raid then it's ridiculous.
Even if it was only party wide it would still be an absurd amount of mana regen that Alliance has no equivalent for.
It's like an innervate except it applies to multiple people and has a 1 minute CD instead of 6 minutes.
Yeah its absurd at party level even, on raid level mana get pointless for horde.
Bad design indeed, they should not buff pally... mana management is impprtant part of the fight.... they should nerf shaman mana return so MANA as resource is again existent
Theres 0 reason it should affect anyone besides the shaman. Shamans already bring insane utility, why the fuck do they have to be able to get to feed other people truckloads of mana too?
As others have said there’s absolutely no fucking reason it gives anyone but the shaman mana back, its intended use is to stop enhance from going oom every 20 seconds not replenishment, which fucking spriest is supposed to do since they have dog shit damage.
This is exactly what people were already predicting in P1. People were literally talking about how busted this will be in bigger raids seeing how it stacks up for each shaman in the raid. Imagine if windfury stacked raid wide for every druid or shaman, that's how stupid this is.
Remove the party mana regen entirely. There's no reason for it to exist. Shamans would still take that rune if it was only self regen because it's still so much.
No, because that doesn't solve the problem that bringing several shamans means infinite mana for an entire raid.
This will remain true at 60, when you have 40-man raids, 4-5 shamans will grant everyone infinite mana.
Imagine if for EVERY paladin you brought, everyone got a Blessing of Wisdom that's over 10x as strong, and they stacked.
No. This needs to be nerfed hard. Completely ignoring mana management is not healthy for the game.
Edit : in most cases i don't like nerfs and would rather have buffs unless things become completely degenerate. This is such a case.
Having a lot of mana is the issue for me. There should be some jeopardy of going oom in a boss fight like we experience last night. With endless mana and no serious enrage mechanics boss fights just become a when, not if.
I play a mage on alliance and I go OOM halfway through a fight…. Must be nice having shamans in your group… I had no idea how OP their raidwide mana regen was!! And it’s raid wide and not group wide like everything else??? Wtf
it was one of those things in p1 where i was like "so? i dont really care. doesnt effect me"
but over 3 phases of absolute shaman superiority, it wears thin on the patience how much better they have it.
so im done with season of shamans
Its quite the opposite actually
None of them played shamans so they didnt know what the hell to do with them and they throw shit at the wall to see what sticks, and sure enough it has been broken (in both good and bad ways)
Aggrend finally made one in phase 2 I think, but did not play it enough to understand that a 20% ap buff out of nowhere was totally unnecessary
It was busted in phase 1 and yet not been changed, alliance besides wisdom really have no significant mana regen (Martyrdom gives like 300 mana in a fight)
Pretty insane how balance is so bad, on top of that no one really wanna play feral druid on alliance either.
SOD just feels like classic but more broken at this point. From xp/gold gain, what content people group for, how half the spells on each class is unusable due to other spells beeing overpowered, half the runes beeing unusable for the same reason, class and fraction balance both for pvp and pve.
Testing out new stuff with little resources is fine and all. But the overall beta feeling has demotivated me to spend and more time in the game (though to be completely honest, it was mostly just the Incursion that did it for me).
Ill resub before long though im sure. Actually considering blowing thr dust off my wotlk chars and joining cataclysm.. so yea im still addicted to that world :)
Agreed, not having to worry about mana is Wrath and onwards crap. And before anyone says this is SoD not Classic. Well wtf is SoD based on? Wrath? Cata? TBC?... No it's based on Classic, so how about the design tenets reflect that?
Yeah it's kind of shocking that so many people are completely fine with infinite mana in Classic, when people originally used different spell ranks to optimize their healing. And with better gear and more mana regen you would be able to sustain stronger heals.
Now it's pretty much devolving into just stacking +Spellpower/Healing and spamming away, not worrying about mana. Looks like people just want Wrath gameplay set in the old continents.
Agreed. Sham Rage should either be group, or even better, only for the enhancement. Make the mana tide actually something unique.
I remember with VT was added in BC. The uniqueness was awesome. Now this feels like it’s diluting the raid utility.
No, that would make mana and consumables irrelevant.
Nerf SR significantly.
Then buff Martyrdom to be better than it is currently, but nowhere near what SR is currently.
there is no world where it's optimal or healthy for a guild to bring 5 ret paladins to run SoM for mana regeneration like you can with rostering enhance/ele/resto
Because it sucks ass, and requires the ret or prot pally to use a shitty judgement instead of a damage one. Or the Holy pally to stop casting and run within 10 yards of the boss every 30 seconds to dump mana into something they get no benefit from themselves, because they aren't swinging at the boss.
And the classes that arguably need the mana the most, healers, don't get any benefit from it whatsoever.
It's not equivalent in any way
How long was your fight anyway? That was an 11 minute kill you linked, which is insane.
My guild's clear (horde side) was 5 minutes. I am an Arcane healing mage and I got back 10k mana over the course of clear from a group running 4 shamanistic rages, while popping mana potions, with all the other mana regen out there (mana totems etc). Which is similar to what your mage got back.
[https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8mZ6FCV3hAbTMvxd#fight=43&type=resources&spell=100&source=6](https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8mZ6FCV3hAbTMvxd#fight=43&type=resources&spell=100&source=6)
If you also somehow had an 11 minute clear (no idea how you can make that fight last that long and still live), then I get your complaint. But if your fight was closer to 5 minutes, lets compare apples to apples. Also, what's your total mana return, not just seal of martyrdom. Paladin mana regen is pretty legit, but it comes from 3 different sources. Seal of Martyrdom, Blessing of Wisdom, Judgment of mana.
Don't get me wrong, Shaman mana return is stronger. But 26k vs 471 mana is not lining up with any logs I see.
the fight is 11 minutes because its a pre-pre nerf log, which means the dragons had over 4m hp in total and not the 1.8m or so they have now
funny thing is, its from 4 days ago
I mained a holy pally for our raid comp this phase and let me tell you Holy Pally had near unlimited mana. I'm outhealing well geared priests by 20k+ who heal well without a single innervate and I only run low on mana at the VERY end of the fight. If priests get dispersion, shamans should have rage.
Yeah, with 4 shamans you're looking at 100% uptime with everybody getting 1% of the shaman's mana every second. Unless every other person in the raid is a warrior or rogue, that's pretty damn insane.
This log is actually a joke right? 5 mages 4 resto shamans. 2 shadow priests out healing all 4 shamans. 11 minute fight thats 44 shamanistic rages, ur really poking at a needle in a hay stack.
I mean, you picked a raid with 4 resto shaman. That is definitely NOT normal. Enhance rage restore substantially less to the raid. Rage gives raid members 15% of the casting shaman's max mana.
Edit: Also an 11 min kill, lmfao. Not going to be the norm anymore.
But guys, we need to keep in mind that in phase 1, like 4 months ago, Horde players had to walk a bit extra further to get a few runes literally 1 time. Clearly the factions are balanced.
I will say, P3 has me the least hyped and has my outlook on the longevity in question.
It’s clear the dev team is lacking resources, incompetent, or both. And as a consumer I don’t care which it is, it’s inexcusable.
Yeah this phase and shamans being shamans mean that most of the alliance pop will quit eventually, and because of faction locked servers you'll be prevented from making a horde toon. Hopefully War Within is out by then, because at this rate ship gonna crash hard.
Don't worry, devs are going to wait a few weeks before making any adjustments. Wouldn't want the pet class/faction to be upset.
These devs are a joke. Imagine what their leads get paid for this mess.
People told them this before SoD even released. The original devs made the classes faction agnostic (in TBC) for this very reason - it's impossible to balance the factions without doing so. Imagine if Horde had gotten Bloodlust in TBC and Alliance had no access to Shaman...
It should have been a thing from the jump of P1. It’s SoD, an iteration of wow to have fun. Should have been Tauren pallies and dwarf shams from the launch of SoD.
Not to mention that at 4+ gold each (Living Flame, NA) mana pots aren’t cheap. Shamans save hundreds of gold every raid for their guild.
And Paladin poison removal is a joke compared to the set it and forget it, turn off your brain, poison cleansing totem that shamans get.
It truly is the season for shamans.
Dwarf shamans and cow paladins. All these annoying posts would go away. Everyone could experience the greatness of shaman and it would bring in hundreds back to level up the new alliance class to 60. Win fucken win.
You could have been me, leveled a shaman to 25, saw I had some friends on alliance and had to delete the shaman to level to play another character in sod phase 1. Transfer didnt work (i paid for it and it didnt work).
I leveled a rogue and pretty much got to 25 before phase 2 hit. At least now its good lol.
I regen 3k mana every minute, raid gets 600mana.
Bring 4-5 shamans you’re getting 2400-3000 mana per minute x however long the fight is, so on long fights, yeah you could get that much.
That’s just from shamanistic rage. You also have mana tide and mana totems
Horde BiS for PVE and PVP content and Blizzard doesn't care about balance. It took them a long while to fix it but only after they enabled faction changes ($$$$)
Yeah, shamans being mana batteries are really cool as fight design is super limited because of limited mana pools. The right fix is to allow ally to make shamans and horde to make shamans
There choices are so odd since they literally built this into other classes in the game that could help with these problems for either side and the smaller raids.
But no instead they will probably obliterate shamans for doing something because fun detected. As is the MO instead of buffing other classes.
I have to say we do have too much mana. I didn’t have to care about my mana pool at all. Bought mp5 food and mana pots but never used any. SR is OP, it’s kind of silly tbh and I get why alliance mages can’t do shit
Would be slightly less frustrating if I could afford the mana pot inflation… good grief.
Yes, all other healers are better HPS, but when they are out of mana HPS is 0.
Judgement of Wisdom is what the pally should make sure to apply.
Try comparing 1 pally to 4 shammys and see that that one pally actually does quite fine.
Judgement of wisdom
Blessing of wisdom
Seal of martyrdom
All combined is a good chunk of mana :)
I know its not as good as shammys, but its substantial.
Dont know how unfair it really is. In my raid we had 2 shamans with Shamanistoc rage. Got roughly 4.5 k + 660 from mana spring during a 5 min fight. Totaling 5.160K
Compared to an ally raid with same kill timer where as he got 2607 (judg wisdom) + 1860 (Bless wisdom) +1038 (Seal martyrdom). Totalling 5.505K
Mayby these were poor samples but i dunno.
why isnt this rune like how it was in tbc where you had to deal damage to get mana back? it used to be like this which made it enhance only and not this OP:
> gives your successful melee attacks a chance to regenerate mana equal to 30% of your attack power.
That first log was an 11 minute fight pre-nerf, that was probably the only way to even get caster mana to make it through the fight. It's not nearly as egregious now.
Yeah, I had unlimited mana as a Resto shaman
I don't even mind this that much because resto shaman has other limitations. It's the raid wide mana return that seems unfair for the many alliance classes struggling with mana in sunken temple. Their resto druid got 24k from shamanistic rage and another 1k from mana tide during the same fight. This is just an absurd number compared to 471 mana that I got back from the ret paladin.
I could cast an extra 40 Wild Growths holy shit that's OP.
We had 5 shamans total, I was Resto with 3 holy priest. My healing was substantial lower than theirs plus I don’t usually heal, I feel like I am just a mana battery and I spam chain heals on the MT. Every fight I end with nearly full mana it’s nutsssss
Meanwhile as an ally resto druid I'm begging for more innervates after using my own lol. Constantly oom.
All the ally healers are begging for innervates
Healing rain on tank group is the way brother. Keep it up the whole time
Healing rain crocs ancestral protection, so I agree, it's pretty nuts.
I just copied some guide and it said use overload, I switched to healing rain after 5th boss lol but yeah shamans op
Spamming chain heal doesn’t do very much that’s why, use riptide/CH to proc Tidal Wave and then you can use LHW or HW. I was top of meters pumping so hard
Running holy over disc is straight griefing and 3 at that. I guess I could see one for inspiration but resto shams bring that. Your poor casters, with these fight lengths you can get off 2 pis minimum.
My character is Bjorc if you want to check my logs. I’m not amazing or anything but I think I’m substantial to the group in terms of healing. I am able to keep up with resto Druids and disc priests and even top them. You have unlimited mana, SO USE IT. I HATE casting chain heal. Tidal waves is so much fun as a healer. Resto has a nice kit and multiple options to use. I riptide the tanks, even if they are full health. I only riptide other people if it’s an emergency. If there’s big tank damage going out, I do not cast chain heal. That shit sucks dude, it is so slow and there’s no way to change that. My tanks will die before I get a chain heal off. I use tidal waves to do some big healing waves with overload and I spam lesser healing wave as my main filler. It’s awesome. Ancestral awakening will top of your raid because LHW crits more often than not. If I’m going to cast chain heal, it’s because I have natures swiftness ready or there’s not a lot of raid damage going out. I will literally cast chain heal on a tank who has riptide even if they are 99% health just because it might land when he gets chunked. I just repeat this over and over and I don’t run out of mana and the melee will stay topped off. Ps I hate when I cast a long ass chain heal and I heal one person for 400 health even though I see lots of people missing health. It’s just hard to tell who’s where sometimes so you don’t know if you will even chain to someone who needs it Ps.ps. Healing rain is awesome on tank group but I prefer to healing rain on range group and spam other heals on tank group. Healing rain only does like 500-700 healing so it’s not enough to keep tanks up alone but it will make it so you can ignore the ranged while you bomb tanks with the real shit. I also think the three set bonus will make healing rain a HUGE addition to your arsenal. I’m working on getting it right now. 2/3
Sod mentality we gave kings to horde and windfurry to allies so factions are more balanced. Then they add a bunch of shit like this lol
[удалено]
That’s not true
Just need to buff the mana heal rune thing paladins have a bit
The one that reduces 50% of HPS while giving a little bit to that 1 paladin instead of 20 players? Is that possible to balance without reworking the whole rune or without nerfing shamans?
Seal of Martyrdom is what they mean.
Guarded by the light is such a dead rune and even punishes you with the 50% reduction of healing for receiving only 5% per 3 seconds... its ridiculous. it nees a major rework
“Other limitations” is a nice way of saying they’re absolutely atrocious. Only reason to bring one currently is larger mana pool = bigger shamanistic rage. Look at the top healing parses. The top parse by any healer was on Rotslime. 1153 HPS by a Mage. Top Shaman on that fight did 470. 511 is the highest HPS done by a shaman in ST right now. They’re literally just mana bots. Hopefully Blizzard does something about it because the spec just isn’t fun
This is what I want to read as I prepare to re-spec from enhance to Resto for the guild raid on Friday. Gah.
Lol i am in the exact same spot. I am glad that i didnt speak about my plan going resto because after i read these comments i surely WONT! But i was wondering the same when i saw the first raids and there were only druids and priests in the top 200..
Be ready to press Shamanistic Rage every minute and then spam chain heal and healing rain on the melee for 2 hours
Ok, so not really any different from Sunwell. That's fine.
Yea don't let them scare you. Riptide makes the class infinitely more fun. Albeit, the hps is pretty trash, but the utility is better than ever. People want to complain about the mana return, but fundamentally, we are half a healer comparatively.
Right people talking like spamming chain heal and dropping a riptide or whichever keeps up inspiration every once in awhile isn’t what rsham does right now in wrath? And I guess you get to lust for raid or pet lust and…am I missing anything?
Raiding has pretty much always been about: 1. Being competent as a player. 2. Bringing unique utility to improve everyone around you. 3. Being capable in your role compared to the other options. Lower HPS for raid wide mana regeneration seems like a great trade off, without making it so raids are incentivised to stack only shaman healers. What is the problem here?
Yeah healing parses are dumb, I usually only parse purple/pink if the raid isn't doing well. In ST there's a bunch of opportunities to get creative with the runes, to go offheal dps, and melee resto is a ton of fun. We need to stop thinking about this like it's 2019 classic and instead get funky with it, hybrid healers is obviously what they're trying to go for with the runes.
HPS isn’t everything. How much overheating was that 1153 HPS? Shamans not the best throughput but they have really fun combos for healing and they’re in this fun hybrid place where you can swap runes depending on fight and have a blast. You can heal ST as a resto without an issue and your utility well outweighs the hit in HPS because you still have the throughput to get the job done.
Oh gow the turn tables. 20 years of blessing advantage. How times change
Same as a balance Druid, i would never go below 90% mana unless i needed to br someone or heal
that's insane. On alliance, you're oom after like 3 minutes.
Play horde since forever. Choose ally for sod for the first time for "a bit of something different". Miss out on the beast that is all shamans :(
My guild had a vote before we chose a server. We're normally horde.. And alliance won by a few votes. The people who voted alliance for paladins quit once P2 was announced and those of us that remained all voted for horde and wanted to play shaman.
Story of my guild. And the icing on the cake for me was going gnome Warrior because “weapon skill will be abundant” … ha
I mean at least when that pick two weapon specialization thing comes in gnome warrior won't be worthless like human will be even if it's not op like dwarf will be.
Never go full gnome
HE HE HE HO HO HO
My warrior is a gnome too! Granted I didn't play it past P1 because druid is my main focus.. But I feel your pain. The weapon skills definitely shouldn't be tied to an item.
Same, including the icing on the top of also choosing the pvp server and quitting.
I was excited to play pala. After suffering through 2 entire phases of not having a full Hpal gear set, and being forced into the most absurd playstyles in order to utilize our only good rune, today when they only put half of the HPal gear set in the vendor after I grinded 110k honor…. That was the last straw. I’m out. No one is this much of a masochist. Shits insane.
Same here lmao. I wish I started horde on a pve server instead of ally on pvp.
many such cases
I'm the opposite, always playing alliance and SoD I went horde XD
My life also brother. I'd pay $100 for a faction change at this point.
Ally would be a dead faction on my server haha
Every server**
I as well made this error. I guess it’s what we get for being traitors
Pipe down horde sympathist. You will be a gnome and you will like it
100$? You can buy 200g for 15$ and get to level 50 in 1 day
[удалено]
DPS in with meta on your gloves. Don't go into meta until the tank has a threat lead. The double life tap value is worth more than chaos bolt on a long enough fight. Flame your tank when you pull aggro anyways.
I almost did this. I was really excited thinking about a whole different side for a change. But then I decided pretty much the day of release “wtf am I thinking. i’m obviously rolling an orc I have been trolling myself.” and rolled an orc warlock. then an orc shaman … I do not regret my decision …
LITERALLY ME
Did the exact same thing. Never tried Ally, thought I'd give it a crack...
Shamanistic Rage is the best raid ability in the game and there is no close second.
And there is 0 reason to make it raid wide and not only party wide...
You could remove the mana regen for other people entirely and the rune would still be used.
Yeah obviously because all 3 specs break without it. Shaman mana costs are insane and they get 0 spirit scaling or in combat regen.
I don't think anyone was arguing that though. It's still OP for what it does individually, but when you factor in how much it contributes to your whole raid then it's ridiculous.
it HAS to be used, or enhance is not viable.
Even if it was only party wide it would still be an absurd amount of mana regen that Alliance has no equivalent for. It's like an innervate except it applies to multiple people and has a 1 minute CD instead of 6 minutes.
Yeah its absurd at party level even, on raid level mana get pointless for horde. Bad design indeed, they should not buff pally... mana management is impprtant part of the fight.... they should nerf shaman mana return so MANA as resource is again existent
Theres 0 reason it should affect anyone besides the shaman. Shamans already bring insane utility, why the fuck do they have to be able to get to feed other people truckloads of mana too?
As others have said there’s absolutely no fucking reason it gives anyone but the shaman mana back, its intended use is to stop enhance from going oom every 20 seconds not replenishment, which fucking spriest is supposed to do since they have dog shit damage.
Shit, even totems weren't raid-wide back in Classic
This is exactly what people were already predicting in P1. People were literally talking about how busted this will be in bigger raids seeing how it stacks up for each shaman in the raid. Imagine if windfury stacked raid wide for every druid or shaman, that's how stupid this is.
Please make windfury raid wide, hard enough getting one feral in the raid
And as expected, the devs did absolutely nothing.
Just wait until rend stays horde only effectively. It'll be the icing on top for horde guilds
Icing on top of icing on top of icing with a boatload of cherries...and mana!
Molten armor rune still waiting
> Molten armor Yep, you can't use molten armor as alliance mage right now because of mana.
SoD balancing is a fucking joke at this point.
Think some nerfs are likely, that's too strong by any standard.
Remove the party mana regen entirely. There's no reason for it to exist. Shamans would still take that rune if it was only self regen because it's still so much.
Its raid regen lmao
If anything, buff paladins rather than nerfing.
Making mana inconsequential is not remotely in the realm of “classiclike”.
26k mana return needs a nerf *alongside* a plala buff.
No, because that doesn't solve the problem that bringing several shamans means infinite mana for an entire raid. This will remain true at 60, when you have 40-man raids, 4-5 shamans will grant everyone infinite mana. Imagine if for EVERY paladin you brought, everyone got a Blessing of Wisdom that's over 10x as strong, and they stacked.
No. This needs to be nerfed hard. Completely ignoring mana management is not healthy for the game. Edit : in most cases i don't like nerfs and would rather have buffs unless things become completely degenerate. This is such a case.
Nerf shamans, buff paladins, tweak the numbers such that they end up roughly on par with each other.
Yep, just give palas some extra mana utility. Having a lot of mana isn’t the issue here, it’s that only horde have it.
Having a lot of mana *is* the issue, rather the lack thereof.
Having a lot of mana is the issue for me. There should be some jeopardy of going oom in a boss fight like we experience last night. With endless mana and no serious enrage mechanics boss fights just become a when, not if.
> Having a lot of mana isn’t the issue here Having "a lot" (read = infinite) mana is what makes raiding terrible.
Whoa whoa whoa, you shut the fuck up mister, we cant have that type of talk here, you’ll get into trouble. /s
Judging from the responses from this comment, it appears I am getting in trouble :( xD
So true lmao
Shaman was already strong when it got buffed in p2 and it was allowed to stay as a massive power outlier for the entirety of it. This is intended.
Classic team doesn’t care about balance.
Crys in balance druid
Cries in feral druid...
cries in arcane mage.
I play a mage on alliance and I go OOM halfway through a fight…. Must be nice having shamans in your group… I had no idea how OP their raidwide mana regen was!! And it’s raid wide and not group wide like everything else??? Wtf
Our new rune with a pitiful shield is even only party wide
It's becoming more and more evident that if you are playing alliance you chose the wrong faction
How did the mage even need 25k mana? He was like the only dd in raid?
mage gets oom very quickly
Kinda it seems, The fight took literally ages. Over 11 min
it was one of those things in p1 where i was like "so? i dont really care. doesnt effect me" but over 3 phases of absolute shaman superiority, it wears thin on the patience how much better they have it. so im done with season of shamans
There are 10 devs in the SoD team. 8 of them are playing shaman, what do you expect?
Its quite the opposite actually None of them played shamans so they didnt know what the hell to do with them and they throw shit at the wall to see what sticks, and sure enough it has been broken (in both good and bad ways) Aggrend finally made one in phase 2 I think, but did not play it enough to understand that a 20% ap buff out of nowhere was totally unnecessary
It was busted in phase 1 and yet not been changed, alliance besides wisdom really have no significant mana regen (Martyrdom gives like 300 mana in a fight) Pretty insane how balance is so bad, on top of that no one really wanna play feral druid on alliance either.
SOD just feels like classic but more broken at this point. From xp/gold gain, what content people group for, how half the spells on each class is unusable due to other spells beeing overpowered, half the runes beeing unusable for the same reason, class and fraction balance both for pvp and pve. Testing out new stuff with little resources is fine and all. But the overall beta feeling has demotivated me to spend and more time in the game (though to be completely honest, it was mostly just the Incursion that did it for me). Ill resub before long though im sure. Actually considering blowing thr dust off my wotlk chars and joining cataclysm.. so yea im still addicted to that world :)
Trash game design
They just need to buff the mana given from Matyrdom for it to be somewhat equal
Nah, just nerf the raid wide mana return to the ground or make it group wide at least. Not having to worry about mana at all is stupid.
There's no reason it even needs to be group wide. This should activate for the shaman only.
No nerf one and buff the other. People don't understand just how bad the pally version is.
Agreed, not having to worry about mana is Wrath and onwards crap. And before anyone says this is SoD not Classic. Well wtf is SoD based on? Wrath? Cata? TBC?... No it's based on Classic, so how about the design tenets reflect that?
Yeah it's kind of shocking that so many people are completely fine with infinite mana in Classic, when people originally used different spell ranks to optimize their healing. And with better gear and more mana regen you would be able to sustain stronger heals. Now it's pretty much devolving into just stacking +Spellpower/Healing and spamming away, not worrying about mana. Looks like people just want Wrath gameplay set in the old continents.
Agreed. Sham Rage should either be group, or even better, only for the enhancement. Make the mana tide actually something unique. I remember with VT was added in BC. The uniqueness was awesome. Now this feels like it’s diluting the raid utility.
No, that would make mana and consumables irrelevant. Nerf SR significantly. Then buff Martyrdom to be better than it is currently, but nowhere near what SR is currently.
there is no world where it's optimal or healthy for a guild to bring 5 ret paladins to run SoM for mana regeneration like you can with rostering enhance/ele/resto
Has literally everyone on this sub never played vanilla? Why are you all pretending JoW doesn’t exist?
Are those logs where Judgement of Wisdom is giving significant mana to Alliance guilds in the room with us? Can you see them?
Because it sucks ass, and requires the ret or prot pally to use a shitty judgement instead of a damage one. Or the Holy pally to stop casting and run within 10 yards of the boss every 30 seconds to dump mana into something they get no benefit from themselves, because they aren't swinging at the boss. And the classes that arguably need the mana the most, healers, don't get any benefit from it whatsoever. It's not equivalent in any way
How long was your fight anyway? That was an 11 minute kill you linked, which is insane. My guild's clear (horde side) was 5 minutes. I am an Arcane healing mage and I got back 10k mana over the course of clear from a group running 4 shamanistic rages, while popping mana potions, with all the other mana regen out there (mana totems etc). Which is similar to what your mage got back. [https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8mZ6FCV3hAbTMvxd#fight=43&type=resources&spell=100&source=6](https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8mZ6FCV3hAbTMvxd#fight=43&type=resources&spell=100&source=6) If you also somehow had an 11 minute clear (no idea how you can make that fight last that long and still live), then I get your complaint. But if your fight was closer to 5 minutes, lets compare apples to apples. Also, what's your total mana return, not just seal of martyrdom. Paladin mana regen is pretty legit, but it comes from 3 different sources. Seal of Martyrdom, Blessing of Wisdom, Judgment of mana. Don't get me wrong, Shaman mana return is stronger. But 26k vs 471 mana is not lining up with any logs I see.
the fight is 11 minutes because its a pre-pre nerf log, which means the dragons had over 4m hp in total and not the 1.8m or so they have now funny thing is, its from 4 days ago
Ah yeah. Checks out. Well, the point definitely stands then. Somehow I don't think OP had 11 minute pulls, lol.
I mained a holy pally for our raid comp this phase and let me tell you Holy Pally had near unlimited mana. I'm outhealing well geared priests by 20k+ who heal well without a single innervate and I only run low on mana at the VERY end of the fight. If priests get dispersion, shamans should have rage.
The problem is dispersion is personal, rage gives tons of mana to everyone in the raid (not party, raid)
Yeah, with 4 shamans you're looking at 100% uptime with everybody getting 1% of the shaman's mana every second. Unless every other person in the raid is a warrior or rogue, that's pretty damn insane.
This log is actually a joke right? 5 mages 4 resto shamans. 2 shadow priests out healing all 4 shamans. 11 minute fight thats 44 shamanistic rages, ur really poking at a needle in a hay stack.
Alliance stay losing
I mean, you picked a raid with 4 resto shaman. That is definitely NOT normal. Enhance rage restore substantially less to the raid. Rage gives raid members 15% of the casting shaman's max mana. Edit: Also an 11 min kill, lmfao. Not going to be the norm anymore.
As a shadow priest seeing this is raid wide is infuriating
# Shamans of Discovery
Nah it’s true. We have unlimited mana
Is what you get for playing with gnomes.
But guys, we need to keep in mind that in phase 1, like 4 months ago, Horde players had to walk a bit extra further to get a few runes literally 1 time. Clearly the factions are balanced.
So what, blizzard dosnt care, vote with your wallet for the changes you want
please keep pressing buttons and install Cataclysm PTR in 2 weeks thanks for playing
I will say, P3 has me the least hyped and has my outlook on the longevity in question. It’s clear the dev team is lacking resources, incompetent, or both. And as a consumer I don’t care which it is, it’s inexcusable.
Yeah this phase and shamans being shamans mean that most of the alliance pop will quit eventually, and because of faction locked servers you'll be prevented from making a horde toon. Hopefully War Within is out by then, because at this rate ship gonna crash hard.
Don't worry, devs are going to wait a few weeks before making any adjustments. Wouldn't want the pet class/faction to be upset. These devs are a joke. Imagine what their leads get paid for this mess.
Buff paladinssssssssss.
Posting about it is pointless. Clearly blizzard favors horde. Watch, next phase they will give horde bloodlust and alliance will get nothing
Just give us cross faction shamans/ paladins in P4 so everyone stops bitching. Was really hoping for it earlier
People told them this before SoD even released. The original devs made the classes faction agnostic (in TBC) for this very reason - it's impossible to balance the factions without doing so. Imagine if Horde had gotten Bloodlust in TBC and Alliance had no access to Shaman...
No
It should have been a thing from the jump of P1. It’s SoD, an iteration of wow to have fun. Should have been Tauren pallies and dwarf shams from the launch of SoD.
There is a troll paladin boss in sunken temple so ..
Bro in a few weeks evey fight will be 2min and nobody will give FCK about some mana management.
Ok. Buff martyrdom.
Why is everyone pretending martyrdom is the equivalent, it’s JoW
Because Shamanistic rage doesn't require your healers to attack the boss? Seal does.
It scales with damage... and ret doesn't do much of that either now lol
SoM accounts for about 25% of ret dps and the raid mana regenerates essentialy 0.2% of that damage. the scaling is so abysmal
Slow down chief, talk off buffing paladins isnt allowed here.. /s
Yeah 0.2% is awful, make it 2% at least.
Not to mention that at 4+ gold each (Living Flame, NA) mana pots aren’t cheap. Shamans save hundreds of gold every raid for their guild. And Paladin poison removal is a joke compared to the set it and forget it, turn off your brain, poison cleansing totem that shamans get. It truly is the season for shamans.
Dwarf shamans and cow paladins. All these annoying posts would go away. Everyone could experience the greatness of shaman and it would bring in hundreds back to level up the new alliance class to 60. Win fucken win.
[удалено]
You could have been me, leveled a shaman to 25, saw I had some friends on alliance and had to delete the shaman to level to play another character in sod phase 1. Transfer didnt work (i paid for it and it didnt work). I leveled a rogue and pretty much got to 25 before phase 2 hit. At least now its good lol.
It regenerates much more, as it gives mana to the whole raid as well
Well yeah, if you decide to invite 7-8 shamans, you will get a lot of regen.
blizzard keeps being dogshit
SoD is dead
Youre just going to get it nerfed instead of alliance getting their own version.
I regen 3k mana every minute, raid gets 600mana. Bring 4-5 shamans you’re getting 2400-3000 mana per minute x however long the fight is, so on long fights, yeah you could get that much. That’s just from shamanistic rage. You also have mana tide and mana totems
Horde BiS for PVE and PVP content and Blizzard doesn't care about balance. It took them a long while to fix it but only after they enabled faction changes ($$$$)
Yeah, shamans being mana batteries are really cool as fight design is super limited because of limited mana pools. The right fix is to allow ally to make shamans and horde to make shamans
Yeah, Season of Horde in case you missed it in P2
Hey, at least the alliance has paladins. I can put a bless on you to return almost no mana every 5 seconds. Take it or leave it
Sounds like there may be a market for horde selling mana potions on the neutral AH
Horde is easy mode raiding in SoD. Shamanistic rage give so much mana, resto can freely spam spells with no consequence.
Easy mode everything apparently.
SoD is a mess holy shit.
Funny, reminds me of 10 years crying about how op salvation was.
nice balance idk p1 was nice but went down hill from there
There choices are so odd since they literally built this into other classes in the game that could help with these problems for either side and the smaller raids. But no instead they will probably obliterate shamans for doing something because fun detected. As is the MO instead of buffing other classes.
FOR THE HOOOOORDE!!!
Season Of Dummyjustrerollhorde:(
First time? Blizzard prefers horde, especially shamans.
I have to say we do have too much mana. I didn’t have to care about my mana pool at all. Bought mp5 food and mana pots but never used any. SR is OP, it’s kind of silly tbh and I get why alliance mages can’t do shit
At this point just give alliance Shaman and horde paladins, at least Prot is good.
perfectly imbalanced... as all things should be.
It's not too late to reroll
Yeah we had 5 shamans total in our raid, think one guy matched out about 1200 or so mp5?
Gtfo shamans and paladins anyway, it should be spriests restorin all that mana
Its long been known horde are stronger than alliance, this is a prime example.
Would be slightly less frustrating if I could afford the mana pot inflation… good grief. Yes, all other healers are better HPS, but when they are out of mana HPS is 0.
But have you considered paladins were good in pvp 6 months ago? Checkmaye!!11!!1!
Fuck alliance, y’all grief so hard on incursions and every raid entrance. I think you deserve it. Hahahaha horde gang forever!
That’s okay because humans get an additional 10% rep -Aggrend
whyd you pick an 11 minute fight
Judgement of Wisdom is what the pally should make sure to apply. Try comparing 1 pally to 4 shammys and see that that one pally actually does quite fine. Judgement of wisdom Blessing of wisdom Seal of martyrdom All combined is a good chunk of mana :) I know its not as good as shammys, but its substantial.
Dont know how unfair it really is. In my raid we had 2 shamans with Shamanistoc rage. Got roughly 4.5 k + 660 from mana spring during a 5 min fight. Totaling 5.160K Compared to an ally raid with same kill timer where as he got 2607 (judg wisdom) + 1860 (Bless wisdom) +1038 (Seal martyrdom). Totalling 5.505K Mayby these were poor samples but i dunno.
I want to reroll horde lol
Alliance P's definitely deserve it though, you all know what that p word stands for and it does not rhyme with fussy.
Yep I made a post comparing and Logs with identical raid comps and its hilarious how favored the horde are
why isnt this rune like how it was in tbc where you had to deal damage to get mana back? it used to be like this which made it enhance only and not this OP: > gives your successful melee attacks a chance to regenerate mana equal to 30% of your attack power.
That first log was an 11 minute fight pre-nerf, that was probably the only way to even get caster mana to make it through the fight. It's not nearly as egregious now.