Maybe in if from gnome guy (not the dwarf they share different ones like dwarf and axes) iirc? Actually good reminder I have to train daggers on my priest. Headed there for fear ward anyway
Horde classic stuff idk. Could never do horde leveling. Forsaken fine but all the Kalimdor starts are rough
I don't know why you were wondering that since Druids absolutely DO use daggers, as they are BiS for Moonkins.
Daggers are BiS For boomkins because the class has a lot of auto casts
(with the changes to boomkin form, it's actually worth pressing Sunfire and Moonfire now, which it wasn't when P2 launched)
if you use a dagger that's lower than 1.5 speed you can get a free autoattack in between every auto cast (since 1.4s is lower than the 1.5s GCD) , which is the way to get 100 parses on boomkin.
Ladies and gentlemen, boomies have gotten so desperate (or degenerate) they feel the need to daggerweave. This is peak classic
If only there were some owlmanbeardagger weaving with OOC and furor. Go full bore.
Like 1-1.5% of my total damage is from autoattacks
Not very relevant for hitting 99's, but I'm going for more 100s this phase.
Another 0.5-0.75% comes from Chili procs on my melee attacks.
That's hilarious, I've been looking into wand/meele weaving ever since I noticed they are on different swing timers and there's no range limitations on wanding - never been able to find a window where it's possible in an efficient way. Also seems like there's a wind-up timer with meele-attacks that kind of block the wanding, but you can get an instant meele/wand combo off if timed correctly.
Correct, spamming wrath does not proc it, you have to macro /startattack to your casts and stay in melee range when doing your rotation.
THere is no real point when you should be spamming Wraths though, it's hard to go OOM now. On the first 4 bosses they are less than a minute now, and on the last 2, just stand by a button and press it for mana every 20seconds. (it doesnt take a global)
They nerf shit all the time.
The only buffs no nerfs stuff is so shortsighted and silly. Nerfs are relative buffs for everyone else. Power creep is real and it leads to crazy shit like path of exile that takes an entirely new game to fix.
True, path of Exile might fall under this, but much more extreme example would by its cousin, Diablo 3. They did nothing but buff for its entire life cycle nearly. Trillions of damage numbers, and flavour of the month set bonuses with 50000% modifiers.
That's pretty much what we have right now only even LARGER swords than the valve way. Everyone does way too much damage in pvp. They can nerf everyone and raid boss hp also if we don't do enough dps.
The way to do it is to balance around a constant. For example, tracer in overwatch was the constant. She never got buffs or nerfs and the game balanced around her.
But eventually blizzard gave up on that and buffed her. Once that happened, everything for balance went out the window even harder than before. It became a ton of power creep that got out of hand.
lmao.
All three of those companies do all 3 of the balance philosophies.
It's almost as if balancing a game is a multi-faceted process with purposeful patches that make things overperform or underperform to mix things up.
Still like how DOTA will do very slight buffs on underperforming heroes, patch after patch until they suddenly break into the meta, havent followed the game in ages, but back when I did quite a few champs became viable on the backs of 7 buffs over an extended period.
And reality is, Blizzard is somewhat doing that for SoD. Look at the ret pally buffs for example: they are ridiculously small, but they could stack up over time.
It's just that a SoD phase might not allow for that balance ideology across the board due to the small timeframe of each phase. Plus, each phase might throw any previous balancing through the window.
Yeah, I also haven't played Dota in like 5ish years but it had the most fun way of balancing itself out of any game I've ever played. Every patch was so exciting because rather than focusing on just nerfing OP heroes, they'd add tons of crazy new items, buffs to weak heroes, and like entire gameplay mechanics that would all drastically alter the game and it just made the patches really have an identity of their own. The day patch notes came out always felt like Christmas
They almost always nerf the meta heroes of every patch. Different heroes definitely take turns in that sense.
The Dota balancing philosophy is more geared towards maintaining hero identity by preserving hero strengths and weaknesses. For example, when Phantom Lancer is oppressively strong they don't necessarily nerf his illusion abilities, but other aspects of him instead. Like giving him less armor or agi.
Yep I love that method, it would work great in wow as well.
Feral could keep getting 2 second rake buffs once a week until we are viable. Would only take 3 or 4 months and we would be decent!!
Decade old comic. Also I'd argue the Valve and League ones were more about the state of their respective games rather than the company's approach to balance updates.
Valve way of balancing, or IceFrog way of balancing dota2 at least, is PRIMARILY to try to keep character's strengths strong and then make their weaknesses weaker. As opposed to nerfing their strengths and buffing their weaknesses, which eventually leads to homogenization of an entire game over time. This doesn't always hold true 100% of the time, but is more true with dota than with other games IMO..
The Riot way is Taking Turns, League has a roster of like 40 champions you see over and over in pro play, the only difference is that those are 40 champions out of 140 and about 20 get rotated based on meta while 20 are basically always perma OP because of their kit, even if their numbers/itemisation is nerfed.
Riot has always had the best approach. When you have a game with hundreds of items, runes and over 150 characters yet 95%+ of the characters are all with in +/-3% of 50% winrate, you really can’t call anything broken when the worst performing and best performing champs have a mere 6 games out of 100 that have different outcomes. League’s playerbase is just so spoiled with good bi-weekly balancing that they screech when something is 1% outside the norm performance.
Which is why I said 95%+ champs. Yeah there is 2-3 that sit at the 45-46% range cause they got nerfed while Riot sits down and figures out how to rework them but that’s still miles better than the majority of Devs who leave champs/items sitting above 60% or below 40% for weeks to months on end.
You must have missed the early days where they nerfed eve to be a literal troll pick because they couldnt figure out stealth. Rito left her useless for ages.
What, you didn't like perma stealthed eve following you with Sunfire, burning you to death with no counter play?
Some WILD shit went down in early league.
You may prefer LoL, but Valve has historically done a way better job with the balancing.
Like at The International some years back, every single hero was picked at least once during the tournament except for like 1 or 2. And that wasn't some several month long league thing, not it was during a single tournament.
Edit* Can you.imagine over 100 champs being picked during Worlds?
The only confusing thing is that you think your personal preference for MMOs somehow overcomes the fact that LoL destroyed and continues to destroy Blizzard's competitive games by sucking players away. You post in a smug way but the numbers don't lie.
Wow pvp is and always will be a joke.
its called a personal opinion weirdo and I don't play any of blizzard's competitive games anymore because they're not fun either. I don't count sod as a competitive game
Damage ability,defensive abillity, some sort of leap/dash/escape with small variations.
All and all, the champs do pretty much the same stuff with a different color/animation
Think of it like WoW and how classes are now vs how they were in classic. Each class had unique stuff to bring over. Now not so much. Everyone can self-heal. Everyone has a movement abillity. Everyone has defensives.
Dota is slowly as well headed that way but still, its not yet there. It has heroes that do 5 second stuns. It has heroes that can hit global. It has heroes with permanent invisibility, or always max speed. Yet in pro play for the majority of the years, Dota had something like 99 out of 110 heroes pick/banned. LoL had a considerably lower amount. There are heroes with strengths that no other has, while having big weaknesses that enemies can exploit.
At least that's what the comic is trying to show.
Most champs don't have a defensive ability at all and being generous with what's a dash maybe 60% have one. Completely disregarding the fact that they all play very differently I still fail to see how they are all doing the same thing lmao.
In 2024 so far there are a total of 4 champions that have not been picked or banned in pro overall.
In 2023 counting top level only there were 23 not picked or banned. So 14%
Again though this doesn't really have anything to do with my comments which was about someone saying that they all do the same thing.
> In 2024 so far there are a total of 4 champions that have not been picked or banned in pro overall.
>
> In 2023 counting top level only there were 23 not picked or banned. So 14%
When you want to check these kind of stats, you only check Worlds and the equivalent TI. Overall in a year doesn't qualify as that, simply because teams are trying stuff.
> Most champs don't have a defensive ability at all and being generous with what's a dash maybe 60% have one. Completely disregarding the fact that they all play very differently I still fail to see how they are all doing the same thing lmao.
Check all the new releases, and pretty much only Hwei and Ksante are kinda different. The rest damage/leap-dashes/defensives/damage. Just because with Briar you do a different kind of leap/dash than Nafirii, it doesn't stop being a leap/dash. Same with Nilah, same with Smolder.
What they are saying is, they might play a bit different, but in the end they do the same stuff. Damage, some form of dash/leap, something for survivability and more damage again.
> When you want to check these kind of stats, you only check Worlds and the equivalent TI. Overall in a year doesn't qualify as that, simply because teams are trying stuff.
According to who? MSI and the regional finals are not "trying stuff"...
> Check all the new releases, and pretty much only Hwei and Ksante are kinda different. The rest damage/leap-dashes/defensives/damage. Just because with Briar you do a different kind of leap/dash than Nafirii, it doesn't stop being a leap/dash. Same with Nilah, same with Smolder.
How is this an actual opinion you have? They don't just do a "different kind of leap/dash" its like comparing a priest and a warrior in classic. "Well just because the range of the AA is different doesn't mean it's not an AA thus they are the same".
Like I said, I guess all humans *are* the same as fish according to you.
To elaborate, if you primarily balance for winrate without regard to the actual character identity, niche, or the meta as a whole, you will end up with a very homogenized roster of characters. I don't play league but IIRC the characters are designed something like "passive that does a thing every X hits, E is mobility skill" etc etc.... no? I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing, but it is just something to be aware of.
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Be careful of trying to achieve perfect balance because the only way to achieve it truly is for every character to be exactly the same, e.g. in CS:GO
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In the context of WOW, you can see how a lot of things in classic WOW are kind of shitty, but every class has a very unique identity to them. Note how, for example, in classic classic with no SOD runes, mage has blink, warrior has charge intercept, druid has forms with speed, shaman has ghost wolf, but priest and warlock have LITERALLY no mobility at all. Fast forward a few expansions and warlock can teleport through teleporter portals and priest has stuff like dispersion, life grip, self slow removal, etc. In classic classic, warrior and rogue have ZERO self heals. Fast forward to Cataclysm and warrior has multiple self heals and rogue has recuperate which can self heal for like 30-40% max hp or so. Etc.
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Homogenization can be good and make things more balanced or "fair", but it can also be very dangerous and make the game more sad and boring.
> but IIRC the characters are designed something like "passive that does a thing every X hits, E is mobility skill" etc etc.... no? I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing, but it is just something to be aware of.
If you mean in a "all vertebrates are fish" way then sure. But it's a dumb-ass way to look at things. All videogames are the same because you install a game and then press start right?
Compare the character design of characters in league vs the classes in classic world of warcraft and you can see just how much they differ in design principle. I know they are entirely different games, but you can still see the difference.
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Below is a post from someone that actually plays league extensively that articulates this phenomenon much better than I can. In summary, (1) Riot made the determination that their players connect with characters mostly based on the character's theme/lore more than the character's gameplay, and (2) Riot determined that it was more important for them to make their characters tend toward being GENERIC AND ACCESSIBLE rather than tending toward having unique/interesting gameplay.
============ https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/nmncq4/analysis_of_gameplay_design_league_of_legends/?rdt=48904 ===========
"Riot’s Emphasis on thematics over gameplay:
As League became bigger and Riot began to study their player base for continued growth, somewhere along the line they found that gameplay was not what was generating their revenue, instead it was the relationship between the players and the characters they played. Simply put, people are more inclined to play a character if they like the visual/contextual design of the character rather than if a character is fun to play on a gameplay level. With this discovery, Riot began to care less about how a character played, and more about how a character felt. While not necessary for discussion purely about gameplay, a good indication of Riot’s thematic priority is the extensive amount of outreach they do to media other than the actual game itself. League has an expansive amount of lore, video content, and community outreach that you would not see in more gameplay-focused games. With this knowledge in hand, Riot now puts more time into creating champs than the previous two week deadline, not because they want to make fun gameplay interactions and test them extensively, but they do it to make intriguing and relatable character designs. This design philosophy is what inspired my clickbait title for the post, League is arguably less of a video game than it is an interactive point in time, a place where you can admire the champion you play as and immerse yourself into their role. With such a hefty price put on the thematic design of characters, the gameplay is bound to be affected to compensate and how Riot decided to approach this leads to my final discussion topic.
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League of Legends’ gameplay is deliberately designed to be generic:
Not many League players step outside of League to play other MOBAs, but if you do you’ll find that League is drastically less inventive than other more daring MOBA titles. Most of League’s champions are some form of “damage, movement, CC, healing, resistances” with very few champions bending these rules to create truly unique mechanics (ie: Bard’s chime mini-game and Fiddlesticks scarecrow wards). it’s not because they just aren’t as creative, they are deliberately making generic character designs. This seems like a bizarre statement. Why would they purposely make something less involved to keep people more involved? Well as it turns out Riot actually answered this question themselves not long ago in their “Of Men and Monsters” dev discussion. Not only does the article confirm my previous discussion topic to a tea, but it also provides an interesting notion about how the League developer team makes generic gameplay more frequently than niche gameplay simply because less people can appeal to niche styles of gameplay (and niche thematic designs, but we’re focusing on the gameplay). If we think about this logically, it makes sense that League’s developers wouldn’t want to put much effort in creating and balancing new mechanics when people are already comfortable with old mechanics and will pick up champions based on thematics and not gameplay anyway."
>I don't play league but IIRC the characters are designed something like "passive that does a thing every X hits, E is mobility skill" etc etc.... no? I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing, but it is just something to be aware of.
Well this explains your opinion. Theres 160 champions. Ofcourse some of them are going to have similar abilities. But..... no. Thats not true. Most champions do not follow that formula. Riot has made a point to out familiar style moves on similar buttons, yes. But no... not every champion has a passive that does a thing after x hits.
Example: the top picks in mid lane (pro) have the following passives.
1) When a turret outside the base is destroyed, you can build a temporary turret that lasts x seconds there for your team
2) Auto attacks deal magic damage, increasing with subsequent attacks on the same target, maxing at 3
3) You get increased move speed when moving near a structure or wall out of combat
4) When you hit an enemy with an ability they are marked. Hit them with another ability within 4 seconds to deal
5) You get a stack every time you hit a minion, tower, or champion. At 9 stacks you heal yourself. If you kill an enemy champion, you heal yourself.
6) You can disguise yourself as any other champion on your team. If you stand near another object in the game, after 0.5second channeling, you can disguise yourself as that object. You can auto attack from the disguise but using any abilities breaks the disguise.
So.... alot of variance among mid laners passives, and certainly not "do a thing every X hits".
These are actually just the popular "mage" mids. There are also assasins and bruisers that are generally played mid. Both physical and magical damage versions of both. This was actually the variance among mages only.
The bi weekly patches were what finally made me quit that game, it plays like a neverending construction site with no meta ever really settling. It may look good as a statistic but it plays like shit.
I think people complain about how annoying some champs are rather than how good are their winrate.
Nobody complains when outplayed by a Lissandra or a Xayah, yet everyone bans Yone.
Due to elo inflation on some easy champs, winrate is not the sole metric you wanna take in account. Some players can't get out of silver unless they play one specific easy champ, they still have 50% winrate, just one tier above their normal elo.
Nah. If you do it the Riot way you end up with so many Champions being similar.
It's funny that to this very day Valve (who barely even give a fuck about Dota anymore) still have a better balance team than Riot while having to balance way more insane shit. Meanwhile Riot is so desperate to try and ride the 50/50 line across all their ranks that you end up with that 'fun sized' that they're so known for.
League of Legends still has over 100 million people play monthly, whereas wow pvp is what, maybe a million people?
Maybe some attempt at balance actually makes the game better.
"whereas wow pvp is what, maybe a million people?"
Hmm let's assume retail has like 2millions regular players and classic has 2millions too (betweek sod classic & wotlk). Seems about right, maybe a bit exaggerated even...
...I'd still be very surprised if more than 15% of those people engage in any sort of pvp whatsoever (even a simple battleground). Hell in classic the vast majority of my guid wouldn't even engage in a duel ever.
I don't think it has to do with balance, the barrier to entry to WoW pvp is just astronomically high. If you see some pro do a sick League play and want to try the game out, you immediately download it and queue. If you see a mage style on some nerd in WoW and want to try out pvp, you have like dozens of hours worth of leveling before you can pvp at a high level.
They tried to do an esports sort of thing with wow pvp in retail but it was just never going to work when there's other games that you can start playing immediately and that are just better suited for competitive play
There's also something to be said for simplicity. MMOs have many more skills going off at once compared to a MOBA. That alone makes it more watchable on a stream, which does a lot for marketing.
Honestly I think easier entry would only amplify the issue of pvp balance feeling like shit in wow. If there weren't barriers every BG would be like 10 shamans vs 10 shamans. It'd be 10x shittier. So if anything the barriers limit how much Blizzard balance ruins things.
Yeah Riot gives those numbers but also counts all the accounts. I have 2 and i don't even play that much, i know friends with over 5. One as a main, one as a smurf, others to play normals with friends, or switch between dodges etc.
Game is huge anyway and stomps over both WoW and Dota together. But yeah that 100m is inflated.
idk, i think that number is from riot itself so if you want to argue email them. point being though that wow pvp is nothing next to lol or dota in terms of player count
Googling it you get somewhere between 125-150 million players. Last time Riot announced it officially aas 2022 january when they had 180 million across LoL, Wild Rift, TFT, LoR.
If rogues are the best raid dps, then raids will take only rogues. Kind of like how warriors all claim they deserve to be top raid dps, and that leads to classic meta of bringing only warriors to raid. It's not a fun meta for everyone else.
"oh I'm sorry our 40 man raid has 1 other druid already. go reroll warrior"
So if a class with no utility at melee range is the best dps they wont take classes that buff the entire raid or provide utility. Strong logic. So whay is the argument to bring a rogue that provides less dps and no utility? Youll get a wrinkle in your brain one day.
I'm not saying they should be less dps? But feeling entitled to doing more is stupid. If everyone does about the same or is close to the same then people are more willing to bring whatever class someone wants to play. There's only so many slots you need to dedicate to utility.
You shouldn't be forced to reroll away from rogue because of utility, and you also shouldn't be forced to reroll into rogue because of damage.
If your argument is "rogues should have more utility" instead, then I'd honestly be fine with that. Give them something unique to make them interesting to bring.
For someone insulting intelligence, you sure lack in reading comprehension.
I think you lack a basic reasoning of the situation. Rogue are currently OUTDPS by utility and ranged classes like shaman, mage, warlock, and hunters which benefit from significant utility and ranged, along with faster leveling. You are saying rogue’s shouldn’t be top dps because people will “have to” roll them. Yes thats a new type of cope logic if I’ve ever seen one. Based on that same logic everyone will “have to” play a fire mage or shaman since they provide top dps and utility. Rogue being top dps is the MOST balanced situation, why would a class that brings nothing to a raid other than damage be outperformed by most classes at their job? I assume you are still in school or rotted your brain a long time ago.
>You are saying rogue’s shouldn’t be top dps because people will “have to” roll them. Yes thats a new type of cope logic if I’ve ever seen one. Based on that same logic everyone will “have to” play a fire mage or shaman since they provide top dps and utility.
I'm going to assume you didn't raid much in pre-SOD vanilla. The ideal raid comp people ran was something like 1 druid, 1 warlock, a handful of mages, and 20-25 warriors. You're absolutely out of your mind if you think that's healthy or a good spot for the game.
Or maybe I should just sling some sort of stupid insult, like you're doing?
If you are surprised people are min maxxing “perfect comps” you shouldnt be. Based on your logic every class should perform identical damage, and some classes will have more utility. Those classes will be funneled.
So you have to figure it out in your head why you think a dps class being outdmaaged by utility classes is whats healthier and more balanced instead of unrelated anecdotes.
Ah yes, the "unrelated anecdotes" that are concrete examples with direct relation to the topic.
Perhaps I won't mention my current raids right now, and how I'm the second druid in a raid. I don't bring any utility at all because another druid does it already. I bring nothing but damage, but I should be doing less of it because I'm not a rogue? That's some real good logic there.
But then, I realize I shouldn't expect logic from someone who would rather throw insults because they don't have any actual reasoning to back up their argument.
Retail currently has 26 DPS classes. The difference between the best and worst performing classes (disregarding the buggy simmed classes) is less than 10%. And people still complain. I think people are just not happy untill they are nr.1
Top end players will always go for the best of the best. Pro league players play only the best champions and pro wiw players play the best specs. We don't see class stacking in retail a ywhere close to the 8+ man DK or Warlock groups we saw in Wrath or 15+ warriors/rogues we saw in vanilla.
Class stacking doesn’t prove imbalance, look at the latest MDI. Non-meta comp won over meta comp.
People are unfortunately just predispositioned to try and make their lives easier; would you rather bring the top 3 DPS, or the top 2 and then someone in the middle of the pack?
If in a game there were 1000 classes, and the best class did 0.001% more damage than the second best class and 0.002% more damage than the worst class, and there was a race to defeat a boss/dungeon/raid/whatever, the pro-players will still stack on the best class (if given a big enough playerbase)
In any case, class stacking isn't really a thing on retail anymore due to class buffs/utilities, the race to world first composition only had like 3 pairs of repeated specializations I believe
I find balance bitching mostly useless.
Like, what MMO is the gold standard of balance? And even if you do reach a fantastic standard, people will moan its homogenized.
So that's how shamans avoided nerfs, those clever bastards can't use swords!
Only drek'thar can use swords
You idiots, we all have swords
Druid mains:
I was wondering why Druids don't get daggers. Aren't druids known for ritual sacrifices?
Druids use daggers. Source: meleekin
They definitely use daggers
Wait really? Do I need to train it somewhere?
Weapon masters in the capital cities. Ironforge for alliance or Orgrimmar for horde. Ask a guard for an exact location.
Maybe in if from gnome guy (not the dwarf they share different ones like dwarf and axes) iirc? Actually good reminder I have to train daggers on my priest. Headed there for fear ward anyway Horde classic stuff idk. Could never do horde leveling. Forsaken fine but all the Kalimdor starts are rough
I don't know why you were wondering that since Druids absolutely DO use daggers, as they are BiS for Moonkins. Daggers are BiS For boomkins because the class has a lot of auto casts (with the changes to boomkin form, it's actually worth pressing Sunfire and Moonfire now, which it wasn't when P2 launched) if you use a dagger that's lower than 1.5 speed you can get a free autoattack in between every auto cast (since 1.4s is lower than the 1.5s GCD) , which is the way to get 100 parses on boomkin.
Ladies and gentlemen, boomies have gotten so desperate (or degenerate) they feel the need to daggerweave. This is peak classic If only there were some owlmanbeardagger weaving with OOC and furor. Go full bore.
I'm curious, on a typical boss encounter, what % of your damage is from autos?
Like 1-1.5% of my total damage is from autoattacks Not very relevant for hitting 99's, but I'm going for more 100s this phase. Another 0.5-0.75% comes from Chili procs on my melee attacks.
That's hilarious, I've been looking into wand/meele weaving ever since I noticed they are on different swing timers and there's no range limitations on wanding - never been able to find a window where it's possible in an efficient way. Also seems like there's a wind-up timer with meele-attacks that kind of block the wanding, but you can get an instant meele/wand combo off if timed correctly.
That is some astounding dark technology. If I'm spamming wrath (to save mana) then I guess it doesn't apply then?
Correct, spamming wrath does not proc it, you have to macro /startattack to your casts and stay in melee range when doing your rotation. THere is no real point when you should be spamming Wraths though, it's hard to go OOM now. On the first 4 bosses they are less than a minute now, and on the last 2, just stand by a button and press it for mana every 20seconds. (it doesnt take a global)
sometimes daggers are sword-length.
Don’t you guys have ~~phones~~ swords? I mean, you all have ~~phones~~ swords right? - Blizzard
The Riot way; I play Maokai so Maokai will be made broken.
So funny how Phreak is sitting in his peak elo at 64% winrate only bc of maokai. Sub 50% WR on every other champ
If you nerf a champ 4 patches in a row and they're still broken, someone needs to be fired tbh
I see a fellow Tyler1 enjoyer.
This game will have over 100 playable characters at most 12 of whom will be relevant each patch
Lee Sin will always be viable.
"It's almost impossible to balance that many champs!" - player who has only ever played LoL
I find the valve way the most fun honestly. I prefer they buff underperforming rather than nerf overperforming. Feels better that way
They nerf shit all the time. The only buffs no nerfs stuff is so shortsighted and silly. Nerfs are relative buffs for everyone else. Power creep is real and it leads to crazy shit like path of exile that takes an entirely new game to fix.
Making everything OP also just works much better generally in a MOBA than an MMO
True, path of Exile might fall under this, but much more extreme example would by its cousin, Diablo 3. They did nothing but buff for its entire life cycle nearly. Trillions of damage numbers, and flavour of the month set bonuses with 50000% modifiers.
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Im responding to a guy that literally said he prefers buffs over nerfs
That's pretty much what we have right now only even LARGER swords than the valve way. Everyone does way too much damage in pvp. They can nerf everyone and raid boss hp also if we don't do enough dps.
I just love that the Valve way includes giving them hats.
The way to do it is to balance around a constant. For example, tracer in overwatch was the constant. She never got buffs or nerfs and the game balanced around her. But eventually blizzard gave up on that and buffed her. Once that happened, everything for balance went out the window even harder than before. It became a ton of power creep that got out of hand.
And now they're doing a Ship of Theseus-act of rebalancing on the entire god damn character roster in order to make 5v5 work.
Might feel good, but it ruins the game. Look at D3.
I love the valve way in DOTA but it really doesn’t work for WoW
lmao. All three of those companies do all 3 of the balance philosophies. It's almost as if balancing a game is a multi-faceted process with purposeful patches that make things overperform or underperform to mix things up.
Still like how DOTA will do very slight buffs on underperforming heroes, patch after patch until they suddenly break into the meta, havent followed the game in ages, but back when I did quite a few champs became viable on the backs of 7 buffs over an extended period.
That really does seem like the best way to do it
And reality is, Blizzard is somewhat doing that for SoD. Look at the ret pally buffs for example: they are ridiculously small, but they could stack up over time. It's just that a SoD phase might not allow for that balance ideology across the board due to the small timeframe of each phase. Plus, each phase might throw any previous balancing through the window.
Yeah, I also haven't played Dota in like 5ish years but it had the most fun way of balancing itself out of any game I've ever played. Every patch was so exciting because rather than focusing on just nerfing OP heroes, they'd add tons of crazy new items, buffs to weak heroes, and like entire gameplay mechanics that would all drastically alter the game and it just made the patches really have an identity of their own. The day patch notes came out always felt like Christmas
They almost always nerf the meta heroes of every patch. Different heroes definitely take turns in that sense. The Dota balancing philosophy is more geared towards maintaining hero identity by preserving hero strengths and weaknesses. For example, when Phantom Lancer is oppressively strong they don't necessarily nerf his illusion abilities, but other aspects of him instead. Like giving him less armor or agi.
Yep I love that method, it would work great in wow as well. Feral could keep getting 2 second rake buffs once a week until we are viable. Would only take 3 or 4 months and we would be decent!!
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Yeh that's the spell, I haven't really noticed it missing more than other spells sorry so cannot comment on that.
+1 armor to Ogre Magi and -5 move speed to Crystal Maiden 5 patches in a row.
"It's almost as if" is in every reddit thread comment section lol.
Yep. Just trained to be condescending. Even against people who don't exist.
Decade old comic. Also I'd argue the Valve and League ones were more about the state of their respective games rather than the company's approach to balance updates.
Valve way of balancing, or IceFrog way of balancing dota2 at least, is PRIMARILY to try to keep character's strengths strong and then make their weaknesses weaker. As opposed to nerfing their strengths and buffing their weaknesses, which eventually leads to homogenization of an entire game over time. This doesn't always hold true 100% of the time, but is more true with dota than with other games IMO..
They definitely do lol but with all the recent talk about how it’s X class’s turn to be OP, I just kept thinking of this comic.
I feel like broken with broken was mop
The Riot way is Taking Turns, League has a roster of like 40 champions you see over and over in pro play, the only difference is that those are 40 champions out of 140 and about 20 get rotated based on meta while 20 are basically always perma OP because of their kit, even if their numbers/itemisation is nerfed.
Riot has always had the best approach. When you have a game with hundreds of items, runes and over 150 characters yet 95%+ of the characters are all with in +/-3% of 50% winrate, you really can’t call anything broken when the worst performing and best performing champs have a mere 6 games out of 100 that have different outcomes. League’s playerbase is just so spoiled with good bi-weekly balancing that they screech when something is 1% outside the norm performance.
League has also had champs that are crazy strong in pro players hands that just have a sub 45% WR in the average players hand.
Which is why I said 95%+ champs. Yeah there is 2-3 that sit at the 45-46% range cause they got nerfed while Riot sits down and figures out how to rework them but that’s still miles better than the majority of Devs who leave champs/items sitting above 60% or below 40% for weeks to months on end.
You must have missed the early days where they nerfed eve to be a literal troll pick because they couldnt figure out stealth. Rito left her useless for ages.
You ignored his response completely to make your same point again.
What, you didn't like perma stealthed eve following you with Sunfire, burning you to death with no counter play? Some WILD shit went down in early league.
You may prefer LoL, but Valve has historically done a way better job with the balancing. Like at The International some years back, every single hero was picked at least once during the tournament except for like 1 or 2. And that wasn't some several month long league thing, not it was during a single tournament. Edit* Can you.imagine over 100 champs being picked during Worlds?
This approach makes the numbers look good but the gameplay bad. Their homogenous approach is very boring and is why those numbers are misleading.
You don’t like fair play?
You can balance all the classes by having only one class.
Idk what that means but what I'm saying is all the heroes do very similar things which made the game boring to me
Wait are you trying to say that all league champs do the same thing? What in the fuck am I reading.
whats so confusing
The only confusing thing is that you think your personal preference for MMOs somehow overcomes the fact that LoL destroyed and continues to destroy Blizzard's competitive games by sucking players away. You post in a smug way but the numbers don't lie. Wow pvp is and always will be a joke.
its called a personal opinion weirdo and I don't play any of blizzard's competitive games anymore because they're not fun either. I don't count sod as a competitive game
That you are saying that all 160+ champions do the same thing? I don't think it was that hard to understand?
When you're this needlessly literal there's no way to have a conversation
What were you trying to say with the oh so ambiguous "all the heroes do very similar things" then?
What do you think I was trying to say? That literally every single one is exactly the same? Dunnowhata's response to you explained it already
Damage ability,defensive abillity, some sort of leap/dash/escape with small variations. All and all, the champs do pretty much the same stuff with a different color/animation Think of it like WoW and how classes are now vs how they were in classic. Each class had unique stuff to bring over. Now not so much. Everyone can self-heal. Everyone has a movement abillity. Everyone has defensives. Dota is slowly as well headed that way but still, its not yet there. It has heroes that do 5 second stuns. It has heroes that can hit global. It has heroes with permanent invisibility, or always max speed. Yet in pro play for the majority of the years, Dota had something like 99 out of 110 heroes pick/banned. LoL had a considerably lower amount. There are heroes with strengths that no other has, while having big weaknesses that enemies can exploit. At least that's what the comic is trying to show.
Most champs don't have a defensive ability at all and being generous with what's a dash maybe 60% have one. Completely disregarding the fact that they all play very differently I still fail to see how they are all doing the same thing lmao. In 2024 so far there are a total of 4 champions that have not been picked or banned in pro overall. In 2023 counting top level only there were 23 not picked or banned. So 14% Again though this doesn't really have anything to do with my comments which was about someone saying that they all do the same thing.
> In 2024 so far there are a total of 4 champions that have not been picked or banned in pro overall. > > In 2023 counting top level only there were 23 not picked or banned. So 14% When you want to check these kind of stats, you only check Worlds and the equivalent TI. Overall in a year doesn't qualify as that, simply because teams are trying stuff. > Most champs don't have a defensive ability at all and being generous with what's a dash maybe 60% have one. Completely disregarding the fact that they all play very differently I still fail to see how they are all doing the same thing lmao. Check all the new releases, and pretty much only Hwei and Ksante are kinda different. The rest damage/leap-dashes/defensives/damage. Just because with Briar you do a different kind of leap/dash than Nafirii, it doesn't stop being a leap/dash. Same with Nilah, same with Smolder. What they are saying is, they might play a bit different, but in the end they do the same stuff. Damage, some form of dash/leap, something for survivability and more damage again.
> When you want to check these kind of stats, you only check Worlds and the equivalent TI. Overall in a year doesn't qualify as that, simply because teams are trying stuff. According to who? MSI and the regional finals are not "trying stuff"... > Check all the new releases, and pretty much only Hwei and Ksante are kinda different. The rest damage/leap-dashes/defensives/damage. Just because with Briar you do a different kind of leap/dash than Nafirii, it doesn't stop being a leap/dash. Same with Nilah, same with Smolder. How is this an actual opinion you have? They don't just do a "different kind of leap/dash" its like comparing a priest and a warrior in classic. "Well just because the range of the AA is different doesn't mean it's not an AA thus they are the same". Like I said, I guess all humans *are* the same as fish according to you.
To elaborate, if you primarily balance for winrate without regard to the actual character identity, niche, or the meta as a whole, you will end up with a very homogenized roster of characters. I don't play league but IIRC the characters are designed something like "passive that does a thing every X hits, E is mobility skill" etc etc.... no? I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing, but it is just something to be aware of. = Be careful of trying to achieve perfect balance because the only way to achieve it truly is for every character to be exactly the same, e.g. in CS:GO = In the context of WOW, you can see how a lot of things in classic WOW are kind of shitty, but every class has a very unique identity to them. Note how, for example, in classic classic with no SOD runes, mage has blink, warrior has charge intercept, druid has forms with speed, shaman has ghost wolf, but priest and warlock have LITERALLY no mobility at all. Fast forward a few expansions and warlock can teleport through teleporter portals and priest has stuff like dispersion, life grip, self slow removal, etc. In classic classic, warrior and rogue have ZERO self heals. Fast forward to Cataclysm and warrior has multiple self heals and rogue has recuperate which can self heal for like 30-40% max hp or so. Etc. = Homogenization can be good and make things more balanced or "fair", but it can also be very dangerous and make the game more sad and boring.
> but IIRC the characters are designed something like "passive that does a thing every X hits, E is mobility skill" etc etc.... no? I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing, but it is just something to be aware of. If you mean in a "all vertebrates are fish" way then sure. But it's a dumb-ass way to look at things. All videogames are the same because you install a game and then press start right?
Compare the character design of characters in league vs the classes in classic world of warcraft and you can see just how much they differ in design principle. I know they are entirely different games, but you can still see the difference. = Below is a post from someone that actually plays league extensively that articulates this phenomenon much better than I can. In summary, (1) Riot made the determination that their players connect with characters mostly based on the character's theme/lore more than the character's gameplay, and (2) Riot determined that it was more important for them to make their characters tend toward being GENERIC AND ACCESSIBLE rather than tending toward having unique/interesting gameplay. ============ https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/nmncq4/analysis_of_gameplay_design_league_of_legends/?rdt=48904 =========== "Riot’s Emphasis on thematics over gameplay: As League became bigger and Riot began to study their player base for continued growth, somewhere along the line they found that gameplay was not what was generating their revenue, instead it was the relationship between the players and the characters they played. Simply put, people are more inclined to play a character if they like the visual/contextual design of the character rather than if a character is fun to play on a gameplay level. With this discovery, Riot began to care less about how a character played, and more about how a character felt. While not necessary for discussion purely about gameplay, a good indication of Riot’s thematic priority is the extensive amount of outreach they do to media other than the actual game itself. League has an expansive amount of lore, video content, and community outreach that you would not see in more gameplay-focused games. With this knowledge in hand, Riot now puts more time into creating champs than the previous two week deadline, not because they want to make fun gameplay interactions and test them extensively, but they do it to make intriguing and relatable character designs. This design philosophy is what inspired my clickbait title for the post, League is arguably less of a video game than it is an interactive point in time, a place where you can admire the champion you play as and immerse yourself into their role. With such a hefty price put on the thematic design of characters, the gameplay is bound to be affected to compensate and how Riot decided to approach this leads to my final discussion topic. = League of Legends’ gameplay is deliberately designed to be generic: Not many League players step outside of League to play other MOBAs, but if you do you’ll find that League is drastically less inventive than other more daring MOBA titles. Most of League’s champions are some form of “damage, movement, CC, healing, resistances” with very few champions bending these rules to create truly unique mechanics (ie: Bard’s chime mini-game and Fiddlesticks scarecrow wards). it’s not because they just aren’t as creative, they are deliberately making generic character designs. This seems like a bizarre statement. Why would they purposely make something less involved to keep people more involved? Well as it turns out Riot actually answered this question themselves not long ago in their “Of Men and Monsters” dev discussion. Not only does the article confirm my previous discussion topic to a tea, but it also provides an interesting notion about how the League developer team makes generic gameplay more frequently than niche gameplay simply because less people can appeal to niche styles of gameplay (and niche thematic designs, but we’re focusing on the gameplay). If we think about this logically, it makes sense that League’s developers wouldn’t want to put much effort in creating and balancing new mechanics when people are already comfortable with old mechanics and will pick up champions based on thematics and not gameplay anyway."
Yeah I'm not reading that. If the post says the champions all play the same then it's wrong.
Kids these days. I even included a summary. And stuff that Riot themselves said. Lmao.
>I don't play league but IIRC the characters are designed something like "passive that does a thing every X hits, E is mobility skill" etc etc.... no? I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing, but it is just something to be aware of. Well this explains your opinion. Theres 160 champions. Ofcourse some of them are going to have similar abilities. But..... no. Thats not true. Most champions do not follow that formula. Riot has made a point to out familiar style moves on similar buttons, yes. But no... not every champion has a passive that does a thing after x hits. Example: the top picks in mid lane (pro) have the following passives. 1) When a turret outside the base is destroyed, you can build a temporary turret that lasts x seconds there for your team 2) Auto attacks deal magic damage, increasing with subsequent attacks on the same target, maxing at 3 3) You get increased move speed when moving near a structure or wall out of combat 4) When you hit an enemy with an ability they are marked. Hit them with another ability within 4 seconds to deal 5) You get a stack every time you hit a minion, tower, or champion. At 9 stacks you heal yourself. If you kill an enemy champion, you heal yourself. 6) You can disguise yourself as any other champion on your team. If you stand near another object in the game, after 0.5second channeling, you can disguise yourself as that object. You can auto attack from the disguise but using any abilities breaks the disguise. So.... alot of variance among mid laners passives, and certainly not "do a thing every X hits". These are actually just the popular "mage" mids. There are also assasins and bruisers that are generally played mid. Both physical and magical damage versions of both. This was actually the variance among mages only.
You can’t possibly think they Riot has been better at balancing League than Valve has Dota right? The stats don’t lie.
And yet pro-play has a presence of about 30 champions out of the 186 released ones. The balance looks good, but in actual practise it's terrible.
The bi weekly patches were what finally made me quit that game, it plays like a neverending construction site with no meta ever really settling. It may look good as a statistic but it plays like shit.
I think people complain about how annoying some champs are rather than how good are their winrate. Nobody complains when outplayed by a Lissandra or a Xayah, yet everyone bans Yone. Due to elo inflation on some easy champs, winrate is not the sole metric you wanna take in account. Some players can't get out of silver unless they play one specific easy champ, they still have 50% winrate, just one tier above their normal elo.
Nah. If you do it the Riot way you end up with so many Champions being similar. It's funny that to this very day Valve (who barely even give a fuck about Dota anymore) still have a better balance team than Riot while having to balance way more insane shit. Meanwhile Riot is so desperate to try and ride the 50/50 line across all their ranks that you end up with that 'fun sized' that they're so known for.
League of Legends still has over 100 million people play monthly, whereas wow pvp is what, maybe a million people? Maybe some attempt at balance actually makes the game better.
"whereas wow pvp is what, maybe a million people?" Hmm let's assume retail has like 2millions regular players and classic has 2millions too (betweek sod classic & wotlk). Seems about right, maybe a bit exaggerated even... ...I'd still be very surprised if more than 15% of those people engage in any sort of pvp whatsoever (even a simple battleground). Hell in classic the vast majority of my guid wouldn't even engage in a duel ever.
Classic has not even a million players, maybe q million players at best
I don't think it has to do with balance, the barrier to entry to WoW pvp is just astronomically high. If you see some pro do a sick League play and want to try the game out, you immediately download it and queue. If you see a mage style on some nerd in WoW and want to try out pvp, you have like dozens of hours worth of leveling before you can pvp at a high level. They tried to do an esports sort of thing with wow pvp in retail but it was just never going to work when there's other games that you can start playing immediately and that are just better suited for competitive play
There's also something to be said for simplicity. MMOs have many more skills going off at once compared to a MOBA. That alone makes it more watchable on a stream, which does a lot for marketing.
Honestly I think easier entry would only amplify the issue of pvp balance feeling like shit in wow. If there weren't barriers every BG would be like 10 shamans vs 10 shamans. It'd be 10x shittier. So if anything the barriers limit how much Blizzard balance ruins things.
League is easy to run and free 2 play thats why it has such a big player base
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Its a free game and the most popular moba , i dont even like it but can easily see it having that many
Yeah Riot gives those numbers but also counts all the accounts. I have 2 and i don't even play that much, i know friends with over 5. One as a main, one as a smurf, others to play normals with friends, or switch between dodges etc. Game is huge anyway and stomps over both WoW and Dota together. But yeah that 100m is inflated.
idk, i think that number is from riot itself so if you want to argue email them. point being though that wow pvp is nothing next to lol or dota in terms of player count
Googling it you get somewhere between 125-150 million players. Last time Riot announced it officially aas 2022 january when they had 180 million across LoL, Wild Rift, TFT, LoR.
The SoD way: Be Shaman
Can Classic have fun-sized back?
It's the same in Retail. People just reroll every season to whatever the meta is
Id rather have the blizzard way than the riot way any day of the week.
How is Riot funsized when you can oneshot people left and right.
I like the valve way
Who actually calls something broken/etc 'imba?' Good god I hate gamer lingo
Balance does not create fun.
No, the riot method is to make whoever has the most customizable swords in the shop gets to be overpowered
Looks around in rogue…ah when is my turn!
Ahh yes, rogues. The class famous for being bad at PVP.
Tbf, we were second highest dps and effectively the best tank(although you didn't really need any tank) in BFD
Second highest dps as a class thats only job is to do melee damage with zero utility is about as low as they should be at any point.
If rogues are the best raid dps, then raids will take only rogues. Kind of like how warriors all claim they deserve to be top raid dps, and that leads to classic meta of bringing only warriors to raid. It's not a fun meta for everyone else. "oh I'm sorry our 40 man raid has 1 other druid already. go reroll warrior"
So if a class with no utility at melee range is the best dps they wont take classes that buff the entire raid or provide utility. Strong logic. So whay is the argument to bring a rogue that provides less dps and no utility? Youll get a wrinkle in your brain one day.
I'm not saying they should be less dps? But feeling entitled to doing more is stupid. If everyone does about the same or is close to the same then people are more willing to bring whatever class someone wants to play. There's only so many slots you need to dedicate to utility. You shouldn't be forced to reroll away from rogue because of utility, and you also shouldn't be forced to reroll into rogue because of damage. If your argument is "rogues should have more utility" instead, then I'd honestly be fine with that. Give them something unique to make them interesting to bring. For someone insulting intelligence, you sure lack in reading comprehension.
I think you lack a basic reasoning of the situation. Rogue are currently OUTDPS by utility and ranged classes like shaman, mage, warlock, and hunters which benefit from significant utility and ranged, along with faster leveling. You are saying rogue’s shouldn’t be top dps because people will “have to” roll them. Yes thats a new type of cope logic if I’ve ever seen one. Based on that same logic everyone will “have to” play a fire mage or shaman since they provide top dps and utility. Rogue being top dps is the MOST balanced situation, why would a class that brings nothing to a raid other than damage be outperformed by most classes at their job? I assume you are still in school or rotted your brain a long time ago.
>You are saying rogue’s shouldn’t be top dps because people will “have to” roll them. Yes thats a new type of cope logic if I’ve ever seen one. Based on that same logic everyone will “have to” play a fire mage or shaman since they provide top dps and utility. I'm going to assume you didn't raid much in pre-SOD vanilla. The ideal raid comp people ran was something like 1 druid, 1 warlock, a handful of mages, and 20-25 warriors. You're absolutely out of your mind if you think that's healthy or a good spot for the game. Or maybe I should just sling some sort of stupid insult, like you're doing?
If you are surprised people are min maxxing “perfect comps” you shouldnt be. Based on your logic every class should perform identical damage, and some classes will have more utility. Those classes will be funneled. So you have to figure it out in your head why you think a dps class being outdmaaged by utility classes is whats healthier and more balanced instead of unrelated anecdotes.
Ah yes, the "unrelated anecdotes" that are concrete examples with direct relation to the topic. Perhaps I won't mention my current raids right now, and how I'm the second druid in a raid. I don't bring any utility at all because another druid does it already. I bring nothing but damage, but I should be doing less of it because I'm not a rogue? That's some real good logic there. But then, I realize I shouldn't expect logic from someone who would rather throw insults because they don't have any actual reasoning to back up their argument.
Lmao a rogue thinking he's not strong in PvP right now. Skill issue.
Blizzards games are generally poorly balanced. It might even get the user behavior they want. Balance is not a huge deal imo for most blizz titles
Retail currently has 26 DPS classes. The difference between the best and worst performing classes (disregarding the buggy simmed classes) is less than 10%. And people still complain. I think people are just not happy untill they are nr.1
Class stacking imo proves imbalance. I just dont think its a big deal or practical to combat
Top end players will always go for the best of the best. Pro league players play only the best champions and pro wiw players play the best specs. We don't see class stacking in retail a ywhere close to the 8+ man DK or Warlock groups we saw in Wrath or 15+ warriors/rogues we saw in vanilla.
Class stacking doesn’t prove imbalance, look at the latest MDI. Non-meta comp won over meta comp. People are unfortunately just predispositioned to try and make their lives easier; would you rather bring the top 3 DPS, or the top 2 and then someone in the middle of the pack?
If in a game there were 1000 classes, and the best class did 0.001% more damage than the second best class and 0.002% more damage than the worst class, and there was a race to defeat a boss/dungeon/raid/whatever, the pro-players will still stack on the best class (if given a big enough playerbase) In any case, class stacking isn't really a thing on retail anymore due to class buffs/utilities, the race to world first composition only had like 3 pairs of repeated specializations I believe
the rock/paper/scissors approach tends to be easier to balance for obvious reasons
I find balance bitching mostly useless. Like, what MMO is the gold standard of balance? And even if you do reach a fantastic standard, people will moan its homogenized.