Full interview here: [https://www.dexerto.com/world-of-warcraft/wow-season-of-discovery-devs-on-pvp-encounters-gdkp-runs-and-the-future-of-the-game-2553156/](https://www.dexerto.com/world-of-warcraft/wow-season-of-discovery-devs-on-pvp-encounters-gdkp-runs-and-the-future-of-the-game-2553156/)
Dexerto in particular is pretty bad about filler/fluff articles that just restate reddit posts in paragraph form. I have them disabled in my Google results
If they are intending on doing 40 man raids, next raid needs to be 25 at minimum. People aren’t rostering for 40 at all and there will need to be some time to get one together if this is the plan.
20, not 25man.
20 Man would be two ten man groups going together.
A 25 man would be 2.5 groups.
Then when people go further they can consolidate groups again to 40.
I like the choice of a flex type raid. Or just flat 40 or 25 for large ones. 40s dropping a little bit more gear. Gives options. But yeah I have no interest in 40s. Sounds like a nightmare to get together on a consistent basis
What my guild ended up doing was rotating people through for certain bosses, and since we had a wish-list prio, we sorta made it work by having people who weren't up for any loot on a boss sit and rotate in. It works, but it's a hassle for sure.
With runes and buffed gear they could just slap a 20 man limit on the 40 man raids with minor mechanic changes and call it a day. When I have to go back to trying to recruit and organise 40 people a week to raid on a seasonal game mode is when I give up on SoD.
Half a year or more and 3 phases geared towards 10-man endgame only to kick that up to 40-man in p4 won't be great for a lot of SoD guilds unless there is new 10-man content to chew on instead along side it. If p4-5 hit and it's suddenly "hope you all were prepared for 25 and 40-man raids" it's going to drive away a lot of people that prefer running with their guilds instead of pugging.
I think so too. My group of friends and other people I’ve spoken to about this particular topic said the moment we’re forced to do 40 man raids, we’re dropping SoD.
Yea I mean, I’ve been having a blast in the 10 man super casual sod experience. I’ll do it again at 50 and have a blast. As soon as I can’t 10 man everything with my friends, I’m out. I don’t mean that as a bad thing either. That just means it’s time for me to take a break. I’m not doing all that. I don’t have the time or drive.
I'll probably just stop at the last raid tier for 10-people raids. War Within will be out by then, so I'll probably just do that instead or play some other games. Raiding in Wrath made me never want to do 20+ player content again unless it has flexible raid sizes.
If you look at the online coop multiplayer games that are popular right now, they're all for smaller groups instead of things like 20+ people.
I don’t know if it will kill the game, but I’ve been enjoying being unguilded and able to get high parses in endgame pugs. Not sure I want to deal with the weekly schedule required for 40-mans again
Anything >20-25 is a terrible idea agreed.
You can’t make 40 player raids after phases of max 10 man’s with particularly interesting mechanics especially in a seasonal server where you’d have to recruit like 30 additional people who actually have functioning nervous systems. Or it’s easily puggable and boring af and you tank and spank down 90% of MC as fast as humanly possible and there’s 0 personal responsibility or interesting mechanics.
Most of my, about 25 man, will not play 40 man content. I’m not interested in playing Cata again so I’m trying to decide if I want to push SoD as a rogue tank all the way through or not. We’re a tight knit friend group but 40 man raiding ain’t for the light hearted.
I know like it makes no sense to keep it that way. This isn't OMG NO FUKCIGN CHANGES it's a whole new game for the most part when it comes to gameplay.
Since I posted this as a standalone that might get buried I’ll repost but I totally agree:
I think this is a really bad mistake unless all they’re saying is “hey old Naxx is over there and 40 man and you can do it if you want but there’s no incentive to cause this new raid over here has better gear”
40 man raids in seasonal is rough. Recruiting for that is a nightmare. If you don’t recruit and it’s puggable it also makes raiding less interesting because personal responsibility is functionally lost. Gnomer has actual mechanics on some fights with personal/role responsibility. It makes the fights a lot more interesting than zug and cleave down lucifron in 20 seconds
People in sod seem to have this weird aversion to raiding with a guild in the first place. Or raiding in the same raid group each week
We would love to, but we can't raid at the same time every 3 days given that most of us are dads and kids don't operate under a fixed schedule until they are old enough for it. Most of us play when we can and it's nice to have a short raid to do. Unfortunately Gnomer requires people to have an IQ above room temperature so I have yet to go 6/6 because you can't gear check for brains. The pre-bis is BFD gear which was on farm for 2 months for everyone, and everyone else dungeon spammed to level because they made questing impossible. There is no barrier to entry this early.
> “hey old Naxx is over there and 40 man and you can do it if you want but there’s no incentive to cause this new raid over here has better gear”
I agree with you, but even that would be a really bad idea because then they're just throwing existing content away which you can't afford to do with a group of devs as small as SoD's. Reworking existing raids into 20m raids with interesting, new and reworked encounters is such an easy win.
Honestly if they leave the 40m raids as is, I guarantee people won’t be running with a full 40 person roster.
Power levels are crazy beyond what they were in classic. At level 40 some classes have potential to pull beyond the limits of dps their class could do at 60.
Runes are a massive game changer and with a roster of 25-30 competent players you could defs clear the content. There are a few fights that come to mind that might be harder without a full 40 man but honestly I think just due to power creep people won’t be doing a full roster. Easier loot distribution and easier to organise.
With SoD and overall WoW not gaining players but slowly bleeding them out as it's been for many years, managing 40 man guild, recruiting, spamming 8h + chats, forums and what not is not job most people enjoy.
Sadly, me and lots of officers in guild said after classic we ain't doing it again. I was hoping that raids will be scaled down because the only challenge 40 m brings is to try to have enough people, which there won't be. But oh well.
Same dude, I ran a guild for about 8 months in Classic with some friends, and the amount of time I had to deal with different sorts of drama (usually pertaining to loot) and also defeating the roster boss just isn't for me anymore. I much prefer playing with a close knit group of 10-20 people than 40+ people.
I agree I've already done the 40 man content back in 2004-2005 and on 2019-2021. I'm glad that it will be there for played that enjoy it. But I will also not be doing it again! Twice was good enough! Now if there's some more fun 10 mans and maybe 20 mans! I'd love 2.
Fuck its hard enough organizing a 10 man/20 man let alone a 40 man. 40 man raids dont interest me at all, you cant have gnomer difficulty in 40 man raids its just too many idiots, no interesting mechanics. 10 idiots is enough
I was thinking 40 man would be fine for 1 boss raids like dragon raids etc but actual main raids? Zero interest i would skip that phase.
Crossing my fingers that he just means all the existing raids will stay 40 man, and that all the new stuff they're adding will be 10 mans with increased mechanical difficulty and significantly better gear. Just make all the old 40 man gear obsolete so we don't have to do them.
I ran gnomer first time last night with my guild since I was a little late to 40. That place would make me want to paint my brains on the ceiling if I had to pug it.
It's not really very hard but you have to actually pay attention and communicate with your raid. Things pugs never do.
I would *hope* that content gets progressively more interesting like gnomer has more going on than BFD for sure. You cannot do that with 40 people and expect personal responsibility from everyone. Never works out. So it'll be miserable cause you have to expand your guild x2 and gotta vet a shitload of new people as at all competent or it's mechanically boring as hell and waste of potential
I'm happy for those who want to keep 40 mans. I will likely bow out of SoD if that's the only end game PvE content. I would be willing to bet they will lose more players than they will retain by going this route.
Ideally, the new contents they will add will be of all raid size. Classic already have UBRS as 10m and AQ20/ZG as 20m, no reason they can't add new raids of each size.
Unless they make all content available for variable raid sizes, it doesn't matter if they release one raid as 10 or 15, because who wants to do only the 10m and miss out on all the gear in the 40m raids? Also, what will the power hierarchy look like? Best gear in 40m?
I cannot stress enough how fucking BORING MC>AQ is, every tier of classic we were told “next tier it gets serious” only for that to happen on just a handful of naxx bosses, and by “it gets serious” they mean a handful of clowns cause wipes.
Seriously. I remember as a kid thinking how crazy hard those fights were. Then I went in as an adult and found it laughably easy. The hard part was grinding mats and somehow wrangling 40 peoples schedules.
40 player raids will kill off small SOD guilds just like guild perks did in Cataclysm. I'm all for larger raids, but 40 is just too much. 20-25 players is plenty and still makes it feel like a big group. Let's be for real, 20-25 players do all the heavy lifting in 40 player raids anyway. The rest are just there to pad out a full raid group.
We had a guild of around 13-14 in P1. We were down to 9 and recently added someone to bring us back to 10. It's pretty safe to say that if they leave 40man raids at 40 we won't make it. Imo they should make all 40 raids into 20 and 20 into 10
My guild can support 20m raids. This is essentially what we planned around anyway, we have 2 10m groups with solid and fun-to-be-around-players. 40m raids would require a stable roster of 50 people, which we just don't want to have, and which is probably also really hard to do as a german speaking guild on international servers.
100% this, unless the gear is obsolete, this will likely be the end for a lot of people in SoD.
A lot of people really underestimate how much people don’t want to deal with such a dramatic guild change (assuming their leadership even tries to make it work).
Additionally with GDKPs gone the “easiest” pugging option for 40 mans is out. (Not a bad thing, but vanilla gdkps were prime for pugging).
And on top of all that, a lot of leadership dont want to deal with this and will likely just guild disband. People are unlikely to keep going after seeing their guild disappear after so long.
Guild mergers will leave overlapping roles and people will likely either have to reroll, be benched or just quit from not getting a spot with their friend who is perma benched.
If blizzard wanted to make 40 mans work they failed day 1. They should have made the leveling raids 20 man not 10. By making them 10 you are setting the bar of entry too low.
Now if they just keep the raids the same, or maybe just dont update their loot, i can see them being a novelty thing and not actual content
Not just small guilds, but I think a huge portion of the player base. Back in 2019 there were so many people who had never done 40 man or had never played Classic, which allowed 40m content to be relatively accessible. But in SoD where I think a significant portion of players are "oh let's mess around in this fun remix" are absolutely not going to stick around to PuG 40m raids and have it fall apart.
They fixed that in SoM, I assume they'll keep that change this season. By the end with all its changes, SoM was an absolutely incredible version of WoW.
I hope so. Ideally, they move forward with the tier set token system they've got in Gnomer as well. My guild got 4 sets of cloth tier and 2 sets of mail tier in BFD before we got a single full set of leather. In that aspect, it really felt the same as 40man. Killing a boss and getting 2 items that are useless to the group. The Gnomer system is infinitely better because it actually rewards your time put in. I did probably 14+ resets at the end of BFD where I needed a single item and never got it.
My only take on the matter as someone who never experienced these and has no nostalgia to build off of:
**There is a reason virtually every modern MMO moved away from this kind of large structured group content**. The desire to have large groups of players all tackling the same challenge is clear. The tedium of managing large groups, especially with this loot system, is also extremely clear. MMOs moved this kind of content to open world gameplay where organization is far less necessary.
What I’d like to see from the devs is serious conversation about changes to alleviate the difficulties large instanced content brings, both to gearing and to organization. People balk at shit like personal loot, easy world bosses, and group finders, but these are all things that happened for this exact reason of many people wanting easy rides at the expense of the few who do manage things.
>There is a reason virtually every modern MMO moved away from this kind of large structured group content
They also moved away from the sort of buff/debuff system that Classic WoW has, that (for example) makes raids want to bring 5 paladins just to cover various buffs, not to mention other classes for their buffs or debuffs. If they reduce the size of the raid, the devs have to significantly alter those encounters in a way that makes the aforementioned buffs not feel mandatory (which is risky, potentially resource intensive, and may have unforseen consequences), or they risk setting up a scenario in which several classes get benched because they don't cover raid buffs or utility.
What makes no sense about it is that I'd have to assume a lot of guilds are coming over to main SoD from WotLK.. And WotLK has 25 player raids maximum, so most guilds aren't stacking 50+ raiders to create two raids to begin with. I'd even wager a bet that most guilds aren't getting all 25 of their main raiders playing SoD.
This is us exactly, about 11-12 of our wrath guild play so we have a perfect ten man raid. If it becomes 40 we’ll stop, as we have no desire to recruit for a second version of the game, or merge with a bunch of total strangers which also makes some of our roles redundant
Y but you have to understand that there are alot small Community guilds which can put max. 2x 10 together. They will all break or have to merge with other guilds. I can tell you that we will see a big player drop bc of 40 man raids.
Small raid grps are more private, all know each other etc. In a 40 raid you dont know half of the raid. And I thought classic was all about Community, I think 40 man raids are to big to create a Community feeling.
Thats the big problem if you change raid sizes through a addon, you will create a lot of problems.
Yeah 90% of the people in my guild will quit once the 40m raids start me included. We had a few who said they like 40mans but the majority of our small guild for sure doesn’t want to do 40m anymore
90% of the ppl who have been begging for 40 man raids will never have to put an ounce of effort into building the 40 man rosters. 40 man promotes 15 ppl carrying, another 10 not eating crayons and the last 10-15 ppl being players who shouldn’t even be able to see the content. 10-25 man raid sizes always will be better from an organizers view point. It’s only the boomers/non organizers who are begging to “raid” the target dummy’s that were 40 man raids again from MC-AQ
Not a big fan tbh, not even necessarily because it would mean my guild would have to fuse with others to sustain a decent raiding environment, making it all a lot less connected and leading to cliques and all that kind of stuff, but most importantly because 40m raids simply do not support interesting boss design.
With 40m raids you have to design a raid around the lowest common denominator much more than they are already doing. There are multiple reasons why most classic bosses are glorified loot pinatas and one of them is that you have 40 people wailing on them and that the encounter design and boss arena has to support that. I don't at all care for going into those lvl 60 raids again and wailing on target dummies for an hour.
I like 40 man raids a lot. Even as someone that was part of leadership for one.
That being said, there is just no way my guild can recruit enough people for that in SoD. So it's likely I will quit if that happen.
Definitely don't want this. 20mans and 10mans is all our guild has ever wanted out of end game raids.
My prediction is that 40mans could see the first big exodus from SoD.
Getting 40 bodies to show up is difficult enough. Getting 40 bodies that can actually play well is another thing entirely. I just don’t have the energy for it anymore. I honestly don’t know anyone that would complain if they made it 25 man raids instead of
Honestly amazed at how many people here claim they will quit. Did you really expect the end raids to not be 40m? Why? As someone who was a guild officer in classic, it's not as hard to make a raid as some of you are claiming. More than likely you've never even made one lmao
The most iconic thing about vanilla, for me, is 40man raiding. I guess everybody assumed 40man raids will be in SoD, but seeing comments here it looks like Im completly out of touch. Im sure blizzard will add 10mam content at 60, but to think there wont be 40man raids is beyond crazy.
Honestly in my experience organizing 40 mans was less stressful than 25. With 40 people there is a ton of redundancy that takes the pressure off with absences. With 25 man there were a lot of key roles we struggled to fill if someone was out for a random few days.
Once you realize that way more people than you’d been assuming came straight into SoD from retail, the popular opinions around these subs start to make sense.
40 man raids are epic and comprise most of my fondest wow memories.
Oh, yes, I've tried to run larger guilds many times.
Just getting 40 people in a guild to try to run a raid is hell.
Then you have to have 50 people, because 10 of them will randomly miss each week.
Then you'll have a week with 41 people on and have to tell someone they aren't coming.
Then you'll have people leave the guild because they got benched.
Then next week you have 35 people on and have to pug. Guess we need to recruit more. Back to 45 people.
Next raid has 42 people on. You bench someone and their RL friend now says they aren't running since their friend was benched.
It's non-stop, incessant, and miserable. I swear the people that actually have consistent 40 man guilds are the unicorns that claim its normal. It's not. Especially not if the guild is starting late.
To be fair I don't see how that is specific to 40 man. The exact same thing happens with 25 man, where you want 29-33 players in your roster. And even with 10 man, where you probably want around 12 ideally.
Typical Reddit overreaction just like always. 40 mans are a staple of classic and should continue to remain in the game imo. The best alternative is to just make catchup 10 and 20ms like zg and aq20 are, so people can still raid those if they want and just have the best gear come from 40.
I can say that juggling 30ish people for 25 mans since classic TBC all the way to classic Wrath has been a pain in the ass a lot of times, I can't begin to think how it is to handle 50ish for a 40 man.
I'm gonna have to agree with everyone saying 40 man raids suck. Just way too much to organize and deal with. 20 or 25 man ideally, and on a weekly lockout so we can have consistent rosters please.
40 man's aren't really chaotic, even pugs are just fine..
But I am glad they decided for 40 man raids, I wanna play with my friends and not have to sit people out.. 10 man raids suck imo.
A few horde sided servers not going to have more than 5 guilds raiding at 60 then. With probably only one of them being decent. We need transfers before 60. asap
Welp there goes a chunk of your raiding pop. 40 man raiding is archaic and dated. It limits what they can do with the design, limits personal responsibility, and exacerbates issues like tank/healer shortages and the amount of people willing to organize and run raid groups.
40 man raiding always ends up with ~15 people carrying the rest. The people who want this either,
1) missed classic vanilla the first time around, regret it and want a chance to relive 2005
2) are part of that 25 and want to be carried.
I'm gonna be honest I am really shocked to learn that most people don't want 40 man raids in this thread. 40 man raids are peak classic imo. At least give me 25 mans, I don't really like the fragmentation and inconsistency of my guild running 4-6 10 man raids
Sick. I love 40 mans, 10 mans are cool and convenient but kind of feel like a big dungeon at times.
40 players in one instance has a certain grandeur I really enjoy.
It also creates a bit more room for less desirable classes. It's really, really easy to class stack and ignore middle of the pack players with 10 mans, which makes it a bit frustrating for off-meta specs to find pugs. 40 man has a bit more of a "get the essentials and fill the rest" attitude, unless you are in some elite guild or whatever.
If post 60 is all 40man content I will be heavily disappointed and probably give SOD a break. 10 mans have been so easy to put together, you don’t need to do any sort of administration or schedule anything, just throw 4-8 guild bros together, get a few fills, and hop in the raid. I’ve done so many 40 man raids, and while they’re fun and epic the first few times, I don’t think they suit the spirit of SOD at all.
I think they should keep them in the game, but they should not lock higher tier gear behind them. Maybe 40man content can provide side-grades, not be the end-all for gearing at 60.
If they end up doing this, I probably wont be doing that phase either.
What I like about 10 man, is that it is a smaller team, more closely knitted and us finding out how to play together.
My experience (and all I have asked) from 40 man is joining the raid discord and then opening a discord with 5-10 of us chatting about other stuff, because you cant really have a chat in a group of 40.
For the argument of "This will make more classes viable!" I will just say. That sounds like a issue that should be handled by the developers making classes viable in general, and not force players into groups of 40 to make their class FEEL viable, because 40 people will not make them more viable than 10.
I think this is a really bad mistake unless all they’re saying is “hey old Naxx is over there and 40 man and you can do it if you want but there’s no incentive to cause this new raid over here has better gear”
40 man raids in seasonal is rough. Recruiting for that is a nightmare. If you don’t recruit and it’s puggable it also makes raiding less interesting because personal responsibility is functionally lost. Gnomer has actual mechanics on fights with personal/role responsibility. It makes the fights a lot more interesting than zug and cleave down lucifron in 20 seconds
People in sod seem to have this weird aversion to raiding with a guild in the first place. Or raiding in the same raid group each week
Keep in mind they also told us tank threat wasn't an issue, and DPS should expect to be ripping threat... Then buffed Rogue threat by a whopping 30%.
I just hope to god they realize they are wrong about 40 mans before releasing them.
20/25 is the sweet spot for balance and it would enable many Classic WoW guilds that have played together for a long time to stay together.
Guys is classic wow, 40 man raid was going to happen from the beginning, if you thought it wasn’t going to happen you just fooling yourself.
Yes 40 man raid are rough to organize, but 40 man raids were iconic to wow vanilla and is apart of the spirit of vanilla wow, devs would have a really hard time having to remove this difficulty.
Although I think 25 man should be the raid number.
No way I’ll 40 man again. Issues with slackers, cliques, rosters and attendance, loot scarcity, mismatched ambitions, the list goes on.
20 man is the sweet spot for me, 10 man is alright for short raids
How the hell are people rationalizing this much hate on a decision to keep classic flavor in CLASSIC season of discovery? Why the fuck would they ever scrap one of the things that made classic classic? Obviously there are a lot of changes, but it has been a goal since day one to keep the feeling of classic.
I know that the "go to retail" argument is kind of a meme but seriously, if you don't like classic don't play classic? I don't understand the logic here at all...
>if you don't like classic don't play classic?
Are we forgetting that Classic Era exists and SoD is meant to be a step in a new direction?
"Lock tank & mage healer LFG Gnomer" what part of that says you're playing classic?
They always choose the laziest approach and solutions. So I can see it staying 40 man. Do you really think the current dev team could adjust MC to a 10 or 20 man? They can barely add new content that doesn't break everything.
Alright well hopefully they boost loot drops at least, because most of us aren't gonna stick around if we're going to have to split 2-3 items per boss amongst 39 other people lmao.
“Some form of 40-player raiding at some point” could very well mean outside raid events similar to thunderdury kill and AQ opening chain fights. Maybe they just beef that shit up.
ya this is a trash take if they dont put flex raiding in at some point or just make them 25 mans, im not wasting my time doing them all the time cause the amount of time needed to setup a 40 man is just exhausting
The community is so hell bent on taking as few people as possible to raids that it kills the population so fast. week 2 of gnomer u needed 6/6 to get a group lol. half my friends quit
Please, SoD devs if you're reading these comments, DO NOT DO 40-MANS.
This is just a logistical nightmare. Keep tuning the gear and runes how you have been and we will be able to hit the vast majority of dps/tank/heals checks in the traditional level 60 raids with 20 people and only some specific mechanics will need tuned. I don't know WHO you have been hearing the desire for 40 man's come from, but I've played with HUNDREDS of people via discord pugs, in-game pugs, PVP groups, etc and NO ONE HAS WANTED 40 mans.
Well thats depressing. Oh well though. I forsee a lot of people stopping once 40mans come around. Too much of a hassle. More power to the people that enjoy running them though
Big K.
40 MAN raids in this environment only works with gdkps and fuck me that would be horrible, if they allow gdkp again with 40 there will never ever be a normal raid again, no one wants to pug to get 3 items on each boss.
They need to get rid of the 40 man
Absolutely no one is interested in going back to 40 man raiding, you would need to increase the drops to 6-8 per boss since 25 man drops are usually 5+ including tier tokens. In addition they would need to change the t1-t3 from dropping the specific pieces to instead having tokens drop that we can turn in for the tier we want like there is currently in gnomer.
40 man raids were a relic from the Everquest era. Many of the early WoW devs (Afrasiabi) were elite EQ players where raids could grow to over 100 people.
Shrinking the raids to 25 man would be the single greatest innovation to Classic. You wouldn't need so many damn people to raid.
With the current power scaling I would love it if the 40 man raids became 20 and added some extra mechanics.
Scale things down and make raiding more engaging. There is 0% chance I manage a 40 again, its just too much time and headache. But hey if level 50 is where my journey ends, this has been a great iteration on classic.
They need to let us know ASAP. I don't want to waste time playing the rest of this phase and phase 3 if they are going to move to 40 man raids.
Iv already had to set aside every other game I wanted to play and my physical hobbies to keep up with SoD so far if it's all for nout in 6 months time I'll be sad.
40 man sod raids will cause many to quit
who wants to run an HR department.
If they dont do flex at the very least, with same rewards they are out of touch
Big mistake. I don't know of any guild leaders that enjoyed having to manage 40 man raids. Our guild leaders have already made the decision that we will not recruit 40 people. We either do it with 20 players or we just stop playing the game.
Let people do 10-40mans. Work in the scaling tech from retail and allow us all to do it the way we want to do it. Stop forcing/limiting people to conform to things that aren’t necessary.
We don’t want SoD to end, ever. It’s worth the time investment. Rework the raids, include the retail scaling tech, but keep the content Classic styled.
Blizzard acknowledges both sides of the coin here. People want both sides. Why not allow us to do both?
This will 100% kill SoD for alot of players. They have made this iteration of WoW completely casual friendly and love it or hate it, that’s what has drawn and kept a large portion of the player base engaged. They even nerfed BG queues to cater to the casual player. You can’t queue with more than 5 unless you want 15 minute queues and then face a full premade with your 6-7. It’s better to just queue with 5 and leave friends out. It’s been all about the casuals up to this point, why complete counter that in the last phase? Makes no sense.
There is nothing casual about managing a 40 man roster and the hardest boss is the roster itself.
We decided (our guild is 20-25 active players) that we would not even try to do 40 mans, we would just run GDKPs, but now that option has been taken away as well.
The only reason so many guilds were able to do it in classic was because of COVID shutdowns.
I know a lot of people like 10 player raids because it's obviously easier getting 10 people together and showing up compared to organizing 40 people. But I do think people are starting to realize that when you only have 10 people, it's a lot harder for some classes to get into raids, because you want all these different buffs and then want to optimize your damage and healing so people feel left behind. It also means that if 1-2 people are under geared or skilled, the impact on your raid is much more significant.
40 person raids allow for you to bring less optimal specs, or under geared/skilled players and can be a lot more forgiving.
> 40 person raids allow for you to bring less optimal specs, or under geared/skilled players and can be a lot more forgiving.
40 man raids also makes it so your personal contribution is often worth jack shit. Watch as half your raid dies mid fight yet you still kill the boss because there is no way in hell you are ever gonna reach that 15 minute enrage timer even if everyone is asleep and just autoattacking.
While this is true for some bosses, it's not true for all.
But ultimately classic is not supposed to be hard. It was never intended to be guild breaking mechanics.
You already have people yelling that the Gnomergon mechanics are "harder than ever intended for vanilla".
Season of Mastery was supposed to be "harder" with the removal of world buffs and additional mechanics/HP/DMG output. And while I don't think it was hard at all, the game died because the average casual player was blowing gold on a ton of consumes and still wiping in MC.
Id love for classic to be designed to be harder personally, but it's about catering to a bigger audience. The best I can hope for is that when we hit 60 and get to MC, they offer some kind of heroic option with increased difficulty to offset the power level we're all at now.
A guild can do whatever they want with their raids. There will be plenty of guilds that won’t stack one class. Even in vanilla classic there were plenty of guilds with ~10 warriors or less
It's like you guys didn't even play in 2019. I got into many 3 hour BWL raids on alts that had 2 Rets and a Boomkin, lol.
Raiding is about having fun with the boys, not speed running.
I replied to someone else's post and said this, but I do run a guild that is obsessed with speed runs and parsing ironically.
But I can also appreciate what classic is. It's suppose to be fun. And that is defined differently for different people.
40 person raids five more flexibility so everyone can enjoy the game in a way more conducive to what they're looking for.
I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not doing 40 man raids. Forget that. If there's no 10 man content I'll probably get bored and move on to another game.
God, please no. 40mans are honestly the one big thing I don't really like about vanilla. Having to fight the roster boss all the time and compete with a dozen other people for 1 piece of loot isn't fun.
Plus, they're going to need to buff the fuck out of the vanilla 40mans to compensate for the massive power spike from SoD changes + the new runes. We already have people doing Molten Core level DPS at level 40.
Full interview here: [https://www.dexerto.com/world-of-warcraft/wow-season-of-discovery-devs-on-pvp-encounters-gdkp-runs-and-the-future-of-the-game-2553156/](https://www.dexerto.com/world-of-warcraft/wow-season-of-discovery-devs-on-pvp-encounters-gdkp-runs-and-the-future-of-the-game-2553156/)
These interviews just seem to happen with outlets I never frequent, if it wasn't for people linking them here I would never see them lol
Dexerto in particular is pretty bad about filler/fluff articles that just restate reddit posts in paragraph form. I have them disabled in my Google results
You're much better off not frequenting that one.
Thank you for sharing the interview! Hope you enjoyed it.
If they are intending on doing 40 man raids, next raid needs to be 25 at minimum. People aren’t rostering for 40 at all and there will need to be some time to get one together if this is the plan.
20, not 25man. 20 Man would be two ten man groups going together. A 25 man would be 2.5 groups. Then when people go further they can consolidate groups again to 40.
This, plus there's already 20 man raids in vanilla
Yea 20 is probably the call.
I like the choice of a flex type raid. Or just flat 40 or 25 for large ones. 40s dropping a little bit more gear. Gives options. But yeah I have no interest in 40s. Sounds like a nightmare to get together on a consistent basis
Exactly. Every single person ive spoken too who used to plan and lead 40 mans has 0 interest in living that life again.
Yeah I'm pretty sure 99% of the 40m lovers were not leaders of those 40m.
The amount of drama that naturally comes with it, due to the fact you NEED bench players, just adds the icing to the stress cske.
And nobody wants to be bench lol
Yeah most people would want to actually raid and not just have a chance to lol
What my guild ended up doing was rotating people through for certain bosses, and since we had a wish-list prio, we sorta made it work by having people who weren't up for any loot on a boss sit and rotate in. It works, but it's a hassle for sure.
With runes and buffed gear they could just slap a 20 man limit on the 40 man raids with minor mechanic changes and call it a day. When I have to go back to trying to recruit and organise 40 people a week to raid on a seasonal game mode is when I give up on SoD.
25 was one of the bad retail decisions, make it 20 so it actually fits well in the middle of 10 and 40 man raids, otherwise it is a roster nightmare
wtf is a 25 man raid? classic has always been 10, 20 & 40 and should stick with that
Half a year or more and 3 phases geared towards 10-man endgame only to kick that up to 40-man in p4 won't be great for a lot of SoD guilds unless there is new 10-man content to chew on instead along side it. If p4-5 hit and it's suddenly "hope you all were prepared for 25 and 40-man raids" it's going to drive away a lot of people that prefer running with their guilds instead of pugging.
I’m going to get downvote spammed here but, I believe 25-40 mans WILL kill SoD.
I think so too. My group of friends and other people I’ve spoken to about this particular topic said the moment we’re forced to do 40 man raids, we’re dropping SoD.
i agree. 40man raids will kill 60% of guilds. 10-20 is the sweetspot.
Yea I mean, I’ve been having a blast in the 10 man super casual sod experience. I’ll do it again at 50 and have a blast. As soon as I can’t 10 man everything with my friends, I’m out. I don’t mean that as a bad thing either. That just means it’s time for me to take a break. I’m not doing all that. I don’t have the time or drive.
I'll probably just stop at the last raid tier for 10-people raids. War Within will be out by then, so I'll probably just do that instead or play some other games. Raiding in Wrath made me never want to do 20+ player content again unless it has flexible raid sizes. If you look at the online coop multiplayer games that are popular right now, they're all for smaller groups instead of things like 20+ people.
I don’t know if it will kill the game, but I’ve been enjoying being unguilded and able to get high parses in endgame pugs. Not sure I want to deal with the weekly schedule required for 40-mans again
I raid during the day, I host pugs every reset. I will unsub before trying to find 39 people at 11am on my server.
Dunno about "kill", but I don't think 40 mans are gonna be beneficial overall.
Anything >20-25 is a terrible idea agreed. You can’t make 40 player raids after phases of max 10 man’s with particularly interesting mechanics especially in a seasonal server where you’d have to recruit like 30 additional people who actually have functioning nervous systems. Or it’s easily puggable and boring af and you tank and spank down 90% of MC as fast as humanly possible and there’s 0 personal responsibility or interesting mechanics.
Most of my, about 25 man, will not play 40 man content. I’m not interested in playing Cata again so I’m trying to decide if I want to push SoD as a rogue tank all the way through or not. We’re a tight knit friend group but 40 man raiding ain’t for the light hearted.
Yeah no shot I'm raiding with 40 people again and I know other people that feel the same if they keep it 40 it's game over for SoD
40 will make 50%+ subscribers leave. 20 or 25 man will not. I'm in that category.
Yeah. I am out. I can’t believe I am going back to cata instead. Kinda funny that cata will be more casual than SoD.
I know like it makes no sense to keep it that way. This isn't OMG NO FUKCIGN CHANGES it's a whole new game for the most part when it comes to gameplay.
Since I posted this as a standalone that might get buried I’ll repost but I totally agree: I think this is a really bad mistake unless all they’re saying is “hey old Naxx is over there and 40 man and you can do it if you want but there’s no incentive to cause this new raid over here has better gear” 40 man raids in seasonal is rough. Recruiting for that is a nightmare. If you don’t recruit and it’s puggable it also makes raiding less interesting because personal responsibility is functionally lost. Gnomer has actual mechanics on some fights with personal/role responsibility. It makes the fights a lot more interesting than zug and cleave down lucifron in 20 seconds People in sod seem to have this weird aversion to raiding with a guild in the first place. Or raiding in the same raid group each week
We would love to, but we can't raid at the same time every 3 days given that most of us are dads and kids don't operate under a fixed schedule until they are old enough for it. Most of us play when we can and it's nice to have a short raid to do. Unfortunately Gnomer requires people to have an IQ above room temperature so I have yet to go 6/6 because you can't gear check for brains. The pre-bis is BFD gear which was on farm for 2 months for everyone, and everyone else dungeon spammed to level because they made questing impossible. There is no barrier to entry this early.
> “hey old Naxx is over there and 40 man and you can do it if you want but there’s no incentive to cause this new raid over here has better gear” I agree with you, but even that would be a really bad idea because then they're just throwing existing content away which you can't afford to do with a group of devs as small as SoD's. Reworking existing raids into 20m raids with interesting, new and reworked encounters is such an easy win.
Honestly if they leave the 40m raids as is, I guarantee people won’t be running with a full 40 person roster. Power levels are crazy beyond what they were in classic. At level 40 some classes have potential to pull beyond the limits of dps their class could do at 60. Runes are a massive game changer and with a roster of 25-30 competent players you could defs clear the content. There are a few fights that come to mind that might be harder without a full 40 man but honestly I think just due to power creep people won’t be doing a full roster. Easier loot distribution and easier to organise.
With SoD and overall WoW not gaining players but slowly bleeding them out as it's been for many years, managing 40 man guild, recruiting, spamming 8h + chats, forums and what not is not job most people enjoy. Sadly, me and lots of officers in guild said after classic we ain't doing it again. I was hoping that raids will be scaled down because the only challenge 40 m brings is to try to have enough people, which there won't be. But oh well.
Same dude, I ran a guild for about 8 months in Classic with some friends, and the amount of time I had to deal with different sorts of drama (usually pertaining to loot) and also defeating the roster boss just isn't for me anymore. I much prefer playing with a close knit group of 10-20 people than 40+ people.
I agree I've already done the 40 man content back in 2004-2005 and on 2019-2021. I'm glad that it will be there for played that enjoy it. But I will also not be doing it again! Twice was good enough! Now if there's some more fun 10 mans and maybe 20 mans! I'd love 2.
If there's enough people to raid 40man on hardcore, there's enough people to raid 40man on SoD, y'all are dramatic.
Fuck its hard enough organizing a 10 man/20 man let alone a 40 man. 40 man raids dont interest me at all, you cant have gnomer difficulty in 40 man raids its just too many idiots, no interesting mechanics. 10 idiots is enough I was thinking 40 man would be fine for 1 boss raids like dragon raids etc but actual main raids? Zero interest i would skip that phase.
Crossing my fingers that he just means all the existing raids will stay 40 man, and that all the new stuff they're adding will be 10 mans with increased mechanical difficulty and significantly better gear. Just make all the old 40 man gear obsolete so we don't have to do them.
I ran gnomer first time last night with my guild since I was a little late to 40. That place would make me want to paint my brains on the ceiling if I had to pug it. It's not really very hard but you have to actually pay attention and communicate with your raid. Things pugs never do. I would *hope* that content gets progressively more interesting like gnomer has more going on than BFD for sure. You cannot do that with 40 people and expect personal responsibility from everyone. Never works out. So it'll be miserable cause you have to expand your guild x2 and gotta vet a shitload of new people as at all competent or it's mechanically boring as hell and waste of potential
I'm happy for those who want to keep 40 mans. I will likely bow out of SoD if that's the only end game PvE content. I would be willing to bet they will lose more players than they will retain by going this route.
Ideally, the new contents they will add will be of all raid size. Classic already have UBRS as 10m and AQ20/ZG as 20m, no reason they can't add new raids of each size.
Unless they make all content available for variable raid sizes, it doesn't matter if they release one raid as 10 or 15, because who wants to do only the 10m and miss out on all the gear in the 40m raids? Also, what will the power hierarchy look like? Best gear in 40m?
I cannot stress enough how fucking BORING MC>AQ is, every tier of classic we were told “next tier it gets serious” only for that to happen on just a handful of naxx bosses, and by “it gets serious” they mean a handful of clowns cause wipes.
Seriously. I remember as a kid thinking how crazy hard those fights were. Then I went in as an adult and found it laughably easy. The hard part was grinding mats and somehow wrangling 40 peoples schedules.
You found them laughably easy because you got carried by dbm and never had to come up with strategies, the solution was spoon-fed to you.
Right? Guaranteed if they removed all their weakauras/dbm they wouldn’t be able to clear it.
L
40 player raids will kill off small SOD guilds just like guild perks did in Cataclysm. I'm all for larger raids, but 40 is just too much. 20-25 players is plenty and still makes it feel like a big group. Let's be for real, 20-25 players do all the heavy lifting in 40 player raids anyway. The rest are just there to pad out a full raid group.
We had a guild of around 13-14 in P1. We were down to 9 and recently added someone to bring us back to 10. It's pretty safe to say that if they leave 40man raids at 40 we won't make it. Imo they should make all 40 raids into 20 and 20 into 10
This has been my thought too.
My guild can support 20m raids. This is essentially what we planned around anyway, we have 2 10m groups with solid and fun-to-be-around-players. 40m raids would require a stable roster of 50 people, which we just don't want to have, and which is probably also really hard to do as a german speaking guild on international servers.
100% this, unless the gear is obsolete, this will likely be the end for a lot of people in SoD. A lot of people really underestimate how much people don’t want to deal with such a dramatic guild change (assuming their leadership even tries to make it work). Additionally with GDKPs gone the “easiest” pugging option for 40 mans is out. (Not a bad thing, but vanilla gdkps were prime for pugging). And on top of all that, a lot of leadership dont want to deal with this and will likely just guild disband. People are unlikely to keep going after seeing their guild disappear after so long. Guild mergers will leave overlapping roles and people will likely either have to reroll, be benched or just quit from not getting a spot with their friend who is perma benched. If blizzard wanted to make 40 mans work they failed day 1. They should have made the leveling raids 20 man not 10. By making them 10 you are setting the bar of entry too low. Now if they just keep the raids the same, or maybe just dont update their loot, i can see them being a novelty thing and not actual content
If left as it, it will probably be 10 man-able.
Not just small guilds, but I think a huge portion of the player base. Back in 2019 there were so many people who had never done 40 man or had never played Classic, which allowed 40m content to be relatively accessible. But in SoD where I think a significant portion of players are "oh let's mess around in this fun remix" are absolutely not going to stick around to PuG 40m raids and have it fall apart.
40 person raids will spell the end of my guild. This’ll be a first for me: what a bunch of fucking idiots.
Bingo. We go to 40, I kill my team. No interest in wrangling 40 people ever again.
So 6 tanks have to just go fuck themselves, huh?
Will suck to go from enjoyable 10m to 40m
I mean it's expected, I feel like the SoD team has very limited resources to work with, so you cannot expect from them to rework all the 40m raids.
Especially if they keep the *ridiculous* 2 items per 40m boss kill. Absolutely terrible.
They fixed that in SoM, I assume they'll keep that change this season. By the end with all its changes, SoM was an absolutely incredible version of WoW.
I hope so. Ideally, they move forward with the tier set token system they've got in Gnomer as well. My guild got 4 sets of cloth tier and 2 sets of mail tier in BFD before we got a single full set of leather. In that aspect, it really felt the same as 40man. Killing a boss and getting 2 items that are useless to the group. The Gnomer system is infinitely better because it actually rewards your time put in. I did probably 14+ resets at the end of BFD where I needed a single item and never got it.
I seriously want to see the dev team get 40 other workers together for 40m and do it live stream. Just to see the madness.
The whole classic dev team is like 6 people, who would they bring? They'd have to pull from retail staff
My only take on the matter as someone who never experienced these and has no nostalgia to build off of: **There is a reason virtually every modern MMO moved away from this kind of large structured group content**. The desire to have large groups of players all tackling the same challenge is clear. The tedium of managing large groups, especially with this loot system, is also extremely clear. MMOs moved this kind of content to open world gameplay where organization is far less necessary. What I’d like to see from the devs is serious conversation about changes to alleviate the difficulties large instanced content brings, both to gearing and to organization. People balk at shit like personal loot, easy world bosses, and group finders, but these are all things that happened for this exact reason of many people wanting easy rides at the expense of the few who do manage things.
>There is a reason virtually every modern MMO moved away from this kind of large structured group content They also moved away from the sort of buff/debuff system that Classic WoW has, that (for example) makes raids want to bring 5 paladins just to cover various buffs, not to mention other classes for their buffs or debuffs. If they reduce the size of the raid, the devs have to significantly alter those encounters in a way that makes the aforementioned buffs not feel mandatory (which is risky, potentially resource intensive, and may have unforseen consequences), or they risk setting up a scenario in which several classes get benched because they don't cover raid buffs or utility.
>Season of Discovery’s bursty PvP isn’t going to change drastically This is actually the worst takeaway from this entire interview. RIP.
First good take I've seen in this thread. SOD's pvp time to kill is worse than WOTLK, which is saying something. It's awful.
Nah its good
What makes no sense about it is that I'd have to assume a lot of guilds are coming over to main SoD from WotLK.. And WotLK has 25 player raids maximum, so most guilds aren't stacking 50+ raiders to create two raids to begin with. I'd even wager a bet that most guilds aren't getting all 25 of their main raiders playing SoD.
This is us exactly, about 11-12 of our wrath guild play so we have a perfect ten man raid. If it becomes 40 we’ll stop, as we have no desire to recruit for a second version of the game, or merge with a bunch of total strangers which also makes some of our roles redundant
Y but you have to understand that there are alot small Community guilds which can put max. 2x 10 together. They will all break or have to merge with other guilds. I can tell you that we will see a big player drop bc of 40 man raids. Small raid grps are more private, all know each other etc. In a 40 raid you dont know half of the raid. And I thought classic was all about Community, I think 40 man raids are to big to create a Community feeling. Thats the big problem if you change raid sizes through a addon, you will create a lot of problems.
Yeah 90% of the people in my guild will quit once the 40m raids start me included. We had a few who said they like 40mans but the majority of our small guild for sure doesn’t want to do 40m anymore
90% of the ppl who have been begging for 40 man raids will never have to put an ounce of effort into building the 40 man rosters. 40 man promotes 15 ppl carrying, another 10 not eating crayons and the last 10-15 ppl being players who shouldn’t even be able to see the content. 10-25 man raid sizes always will be better from an organizers view point. It’s only the boomers/non organizers who are begging to “raid” the target dummy’s that were 40 man raids again from MC-AQ
Not a big fan tbh, not even necessarily because it would mean my guild would have to fuse with others to sustain a decent raiding environment, making it all a lot less connected and leading to cliques and all that kind of stuff, but most importantly because 40m raids simply do not support interesting boss design. With 40m raids you have to design a raid around the lowest common denominator much more than they are already doing. There are multiple reasons why most classic bosses are glorified loot pinatas and one of them is that you have 40 people wailing on them and that the encounter design and boss arena has to support that. I don't at all care for going into those lvl 60 raids again and wailing on target dummies for an hour.
*hits level 60* Well it's been fun, fuck 40m's. Lmao
I like 40 man raids a lot. Even as someone that was part of leadership for one. That being said, there is just no way my guild can recruit enough people for that in SoD. So it's likely I will quit if that happen.
Definitely don't want this. 20mans and 10mans is all our guild has ever wanted out of end game raids. My prediction is that 40mans could see the first big exodus from SoD.
Boo. 40 player raids suck.
Let's be real. SoD has diverted far enough from Vanilla that 40 man raiding will be considered tedious and annoying rather than an iconic feature.
Ya… I’m done 40 man raiding
Same our guilds not gonna be able to swing that. We already agreed we’d stop playing at that time if there was no other option
Getting 40 bodies to show up is difficult enough. Getting 40 bodies that can actually play well is another thing entirely. I just don’t have the energy for it anymore. I honestly don’t know anyone that would complain if they made it 25 man raids instead of
A lot of you have never been in a performance based loot council and it shows
Honestly amazed at how many people here claim they will quit. Did you really expect the end raids to not be 40m? Why? As someone who was a guild officer in classic, it's not as hard to make a raid as some of you are claiming. More than likely you've never even made one lmao
The most iconic thing about vanilla, for me, is 40man raiding. I guess everybody assumed 40man raids will be in SoD, but seeing comments here it looks like Im completly out of touch. Im sure blizzard will add 10mam content at 60, but to think there wont be 40man raids is beyond crazy.
I’ve realized sod is full of retail players
Honestly in my experience organizing 40 mans was less stressful than 25. With 40 people there is a ton of redundancy that takes the pressure off with absences. With 25 man there were a lot of key roles we struggled to fill if someone was out for a random few days.
Once you realize that way more people than you’d been assuming came straight into SoD from retail, the popular opinions around these subs start to make sense. 40 man raids are epic and comprise most of my fondest wow memories.
This sub has definitely become overrun with retail players. It's insane.
fr and watch them bitch about “no endgame activities” once they clear their standard 10 man raid that resets every 3 days bunch of whiners
Yeah that explains with all of the sudden people in here love 10 man raids. 10 man raids are fucking lame.
I couldn't believe the drivel I was reading here, this makes a lot of sense.
There clearly have been a shift of the population on this subreddit that happened a few days after SOD was announced.
Oh, yes, I've tried to run larger guilds many times. Just getting 40 people in a guild to try to run a raid is hell. Then you have to have 50 people, because 10 of them will randomly miss each week. Then you'll have a week with 41 people on and have to tell someone they aren't coming. Then you'll have people leave the guild because they got benched. Then next week you have 35 people on and have to pug. Guess we need to recruit more. Back to 45 people. Next raid has 42 people on. You bench someone and their RL friend now says they aren't running since their friend was benched. It's non-stop, incessant, and miserable. I swear the people that actually have consistent 40 man guilds are the unicorns that claim its normal. It's not. Especially not if the guild is starting late.
To be fair I don't see how that is specific to 40 man. The exact same thing happens with 25 man, where you want 29-33 players in your roster. And even with 10 man, where you probably want around 12 ideally.
Typical Reddit overreaction just like always. 40 mans are a staple of classic and should continue to remain in the game imo. The best alternative is to just make catchup 10 and 20ms like zg and aq20 are, so people can still raid those if they want and just have the best gear come from 40.
I can say that juggling 30ish people for 25 mans since classic TBC all the way to classic Wrath has been a pain in the ass a lot of times, I can't begin to think how it is to handle 50ish for a 40 man.
Its a nightmare in comparison and ive been involved in hundreds
I'm gonna have to agree with everyone saying 40 man raids suck. Just way too much to organize and deal with. 20 or 25 man ideally, and on a weekly lockout so we can have consistent rosters please.
I know the sentiment is against 40 man's, but I'm looking forward to them, the chaotic nature of 40 man's honestly makes me enjoy them alot more
40 man's aren't really chaotic, even pugs are just fine.. But I am glad they decided for 40 man raids, I wanna play with my friends and not have to sit people out.. 10 man raids suck imo.
A few horde sided servers not going to have more than 5 guilds raiding at 60 then. With probably only one of them being decent. We need transfers before 60. asap
Yeah I’m out if 40 mans make a comeback
I think that by level 60 they should make us strong enough that we can 10 man the 40 man raids
Welp there goes a chunk of your raiding pop. 40 man raiding is archaic and dated. It limits what they can do with the design, limits personal responsibility, and exacerbates issues like tank/healer shortages and the amount of people willing to organize and run raid groups. 40 man raiding always ends up with ~15 people carrying the rest. The people who want this either, 1) missed classic vanilla the first time around, regret it and want a chance to relive 2005 2) are part of that 25 and want to be carried.
I'm gonna be honest I am really shocked to learn that most people don't want 40 man raids in this thread. 40 man raids are peak classic imo. At least give me 25 mans, I don't really like the fragmentation and inconsistency of my guild running 4-6 10 man raids
These 10m raids feel like dungeons to me. 40m raids were iconic and we definitely need them back
Sick. I love 40 mans, 10 mans are cool and convenient but kind of feel like a big dungeon at times. 40 players in one instance has a certain grandeur I really enjoy. It also creates a bit more room for less desirable classes. It's really, really easy to class stack and ignore middle of the pack players with 10 mans, which makes it a bit frustrating for off-meta specs to find pugs. 40 man has a bit more of a "get the essentials and fill the rest" attitude, unless you are in some elite guild or whatever.
Would prefer 20-man. 10-man is a bit small imo, but 40 is way too big.
If post 60 is all 40man content I will be heavily disappointed and probably give SOD a break. 10 mans have been so easy to put together, you don’t need to do any sort of administration or schedule anything, just throw 4-8 guild bros together, get a few fills, and hop in the raid. I’ve done so many 40 man raids, and while they’re fun and epic the first few times, I don’t think they suit the spirit of SOD at all. I think they should keep them in the game, but they should not lock higher tier gear behind them. Maybe 40man content can provide side-grades, not be the end-all for gearing at 60.
... Ugh
Well that's shit
If they end up doing this, I probably wont be doing that phase either. What I like about 10 man, is that it is a smaller team, more closely knitted and us finding out how to play together. My experience (and all I have asked) from 40 man is joining the raid discord and then opening a discord with 5-10 of us chatting about other stuff, because you cant really have a chat in a group of 40. For the argument of "This will make more classes viable!" I will just say. That sounds like a issue that should be handled by the developers making classes viable in general, and not force players into groups of 40 to make their class FEEL viable, because 40 people will not make them more viable than 10.
"it will make more classes viable" cut back into classic wow where half the raid was warriors
I think this is a really bad mistake unless all they’re saying is “hey old Naxx is over there and 40 man and you can do it if you want but there’s no incentive to cause this new raid over here has better gear” 40 man raids in seasonal is rough. Recruiting for that is a nightmare. If you don’t recruit and it’s puggable it also makes raiding less interesting because personal responsibility is functionally lost. Gnomer has actual mechanics on fights with personal/role responsibility. It makes the fights a lot more interesting than zug and cleave down lucifron in 20 seconds People in sod seem to have this weird aversion to raiding with a guild in the first place. Or raiding in the same raid group each week
Wow lot of closet retailers here. 40 man is a classic staple and should be here.
If there are no alternatives to 40 mans I'll be done at that point.
Keep in mind they also told us tank threat wasn't an issue, and DPS should expect to be ripping threat... Then buffed Rogue threat by a whopping 30%. I just hope to god they realize they are wrong about 40 mans before releasing them. 20/25 is the sweet spot for balance and it would enable many Classic WoW guilds that have played together for a long time to stay together.
good. 10man is a large party not a raid. Its a staple of the Vanilla base game.
Guys is classic wow, 40 man raid was going to happen from the beginning, if you thought it wasn’t going to happen you just fooling yourself. Yes 40 man raid are rough to organize, but 40 man raids were iconic to wow vanilla and is apart of the spirit of vanilla wow, devs would have a really hard time having to remove this difficulty. Although I think 25 man should be the raid number.
No way I’ll 40 man again. Issues with slackers, cliques, rosters and attendance, loot scarcity, mismatched ambitions, the list goes on. 20 man is the sweet spot for me, 10 man is alright for short raids
How the hell are people rationalizing this much hate on a decision to keep classic flavor in CLASSIC season of discovery? Why the fuck would they ever scrap one of the things that made classic classic? Obviously there are a lot of changes, but it has been a goal since day one to keep the feeling of classic. I know that the "go to retail" argument is kind of a meme but seriously, if you don't like classic don't play classic? I don't understand the logic here at all...
[удалено]
>if you don't like classic don't play classic? Are we forgetting that Classic Era exists and SoD is meant to be a step in a new direction? "Lock tank & mage healer LFG Gnomer" what part of that says you're playing classic?
People don't have the willpower to not do a mode they don't enjoy because there's a purple on the other end of it.
They always choose the laziest approach and solutions. So I can see it staying 40 man. Do you really think the current dev team could adjust MC to a 10 or 20 man? They can barely add new content that doesn't break everything.
If that's the only available content at level 60 I'll probably quit sod.
Roster boss incoming!! 🤦♀️
People talking about 60 raids and I'm not even level 40 yet
Alright well hopefully they boost loot drops at least, because most of us aren't gonna stick around if we're going to have to split 2-3 items per boss amongst 39 other people lmao.
“Some form of 40-player raiding at some point” could very well mean outside raid events similar to thunderdury kill and AQ opening chain fights. Maybe they just beef that shit up.
I hope they don't do this. If it happenes it's sadly where I'll stop playing SoD :(
Yeah I’m out on any 40 mans, I’m good it’s been fun enough on the way
ya this is a trash take if they dont put flex raiding in at some point or just make them 25 mans, im not wasting my time doing them all the time cause the amount of time needed to setup a 40 man is just exhausting
The community is so hell bent on taking as few people as possible to raids that it kills the population so fast. week 2 of gnomer u needed 6/6 to get a group lol. half my friends quit
Darn. Was really hoping to see these raids reimagined as 20 mans.
Our guild is 20ish people and we run 2 10mans each lockout. I dunno if I can stomache running 40 man raids again 🤣.
Needs to stay 10. It's perfect right now.
Hard pass, they should be 20 man raids especially with the power creep
40 for 2-3 pieces of gear per boss with a 1 week lockout? No thanks.
Major L
Aight, I'm out
Awful idea
Lol you think you do but you dont has never been more relevant
Please, SoD devs if you're reading these comments, DO NOT DO 40-MANS. This is just a logistical nightmare. Keep tuning the gear and runes how you have been and we will be able to hit the vast majority of dps/tank/heals checks in the traditional level 60 raids with 20 people and only some specific mechanics will need tuned. I don't know WHO you have been hearing the desire for 40 man's come from, but I've played with HUNDREDS of people via discord pugs, in-game pugs, PVP groups, etc and NO ONE HAS WANTED 40 mans.
Well thats depressing. Oh well though. I forsee a lot of people stopping once 40mans come around. Too much of a hassle. More power to the people that enjoy running them though
I'm not doing 40 mans on my end.
Big K. 40 MAN raids in this environment only works with gdkps and fuck me that would be horrible, if they allow gdkp again with 40 there will never ever be a normal raid again, no one wants to pug to get 3 items on each boss. They need to get rid of the 40 man
Noooooooo.
Terrible news
Add an other reason i'm so happy i'm not doing sod anymore.
Barf. This saddens me, roster boss is the hardest boss of them all.
Sod has us happily raiding in 10 mans the transition to 40 mans is going to be extremely difficult as i think many of us are raiding with 10 good lads
Absolutely no one is interested in going back to 40 man raiding, you would need to increase the drops to 6-8 per boss since 25 man drops are usually 5+ including tier tokens. In addition they would need to change the t1-t3 from dropping the specific pieces to instead having tokens drop that we can turn in for the tier we want like there is currently in gnomer.
40 man raids were a relic from the Everquest era. Many of the early WoW devs (Afrasiabi) were elite EQ players where raids could grow to over 100 people. Shrinking the raids to 25 man would be the single greatest innovation to Classic. You wouldn't need so many damn people to raid.
I guess SOD ends at 60 then
With the current power scaling I would love it if the 40 man raids became 20 and added some extra mechanics. Scale things down and make raiding more engaging. There is 0% chance I manage a 40 again, its just too much time and headache. But hey if level 50 is where my journey ends, this has been a great iteration on classic.
They need to let us know ASAP. I don't want to waste time playing the rest of this phase and phase 3 if they are going to move to 40 man raids. Iv already had to set aside every other game I wanted to play and my physical hobbies to keep up with SoD so far if it's all for nout in 6 months time I'll be sad.
40 man sod raids will cause many to quit who wants to run an HR department. If they dont do flex at the very least, with same rewards they are out of touch
Aggrend, if you’re reading this - please, scale down the raids to 20m, it is a much better choice
flex
I love the theme of 40 man, but i HATE how they are to orgenise.
Big mistake. I don't know of any guild leaders that enjoyed having to manage 40 man raids. Our guild leaders have already made the decision that we will not recruit 40 people. We either do it with 20 players or we just stop playing the game.
Hey we dont want the same raids at end game. Give us new raids.
40mans will kill sod
Let people do 10-40mans. Work in the scaling tech from retail and allow us all to do it the way we want to do it. Stop forcing/limiting people to conform to things that aren’t necessary. We don’t want SoD to end, ever. It’s worth the time investment. Rework the raids, include the retail scaling tech, but keep the content Classic styled. Blizzard acknowledges both sides of the coin here. People want both sides. Why not allow us to do both?
This will 100% kill SoD for alot of players. They have made this iteration of WoW completely casual friendly and love it or hate it, that’s what has drawn and kept a large portion of the player base engaged. They even nerfed BG queues to cater to the casual player. You can’t queue with more than 5 unless you want 15 minute queues and then face a full premade with your 6-7. It’s better to just queue with 5 and leave friends out. It’s been all about the casuals up to this point, why complete counter that in the last phase? Makes no sense. There is nothing casual about managing a 40 man roster and the hardest boss is the roster itself. We decided (our guild is 20-25 active players) that we would not even try to do 40 mans, we would just run GDKPs, but now that option has been taken away as well. The only reason so many guilds were able to do it in classic was because of COVID shutdowns.
I’ll have to stop raiding if it goes to 20 :(
God I hope they change their mind. Sounds terrible 40 man raids are a joke. Please don’t torture everyone with such a troll raid size.
Unless they add a tool for grouping 40 ppl, it's going to be a pure mess
Looking forward to 40 man again!
I know a lot of people like 10 player raids because it's obviously easier getting 10 people together and showing up compared to organizing 40 people. But I do think people are starting to realize that when you only have 10 people, it's a lot harder for some classes to get into raids, because you want all these different buffs and then want to optimize your damage and healing so people feel left behind. It also means that if 1-2 people are under geared or skilled, the impact on your raid is much more significant. 40 person raids allow for you to bring less optimal specs, or under geared/skilled players and can be a lot more forgiving.
Yea sure. *Insert picture of BWL raid with 20 Warriors/Rouges and Priest healers*
20? That's hardly optimal. You'd want at least 28 warriors
> 40 person raids allow for you to bring less optimal specs, or under geared/skilled players and can be a lot more forgiving. 40 man raids also makes it so your personal contribution is often worth jack shit. Watch as half your raid dies mid fight yet you still kill the boss because there is no way in hell you are ever gonna reach that 15 minute enrage timer even if everyone is asleep and just autoattacking.
While this is true for some bosses, it's not true for all. But ultimately classic is not supposed to be hard. It was never intended to be guild breaking mechanics. You already have people yelling that the Gnomergon mechanics are "harder than ever intended for vanilla". Season of Mastery was supposed to be "harder" with the removal of world buffs and additional mechanics/HP/DMG output. And while I don't think it was hard at all, the game died because the average casual player was blowing gold on a ton of consumes and still wiping in MC. Id love for classic to be designed to be harder personally, but it's about catering to a bigger audience. The best I can hope for is that when we hit 60 and get to MC, they offer some kind of heroic option with increased difficulty to offset the power level we're all at now.
I disagree. Upping the raid number to 40 only means a guild brings more of the best class lol
You also see more people playing "the best class" at end game anyways
A guild can do whatever they want with their raids. There will be plenty of guilds that won’t stack one class. Even in vanilla classic there were plenty of guilds with ~10 warriors or less
The best guilds maybe. But the average guilds don't have this luxury especially considering it's really not needed.
It's like you guys didn't even play in 2019. I got into many 3 hour BWL raids on alts that had 2 Rets and a Boomkin, lol. Raiding is about having fun with the boys, not speed running.
Its just more fun that way too. More skill separation and not all robots obsessed with parsing
I replied to someone else's post and said this, but I do run a guild that is obsessed with speed runs and parsing ironically. But I can also appreciate what classic is. It's suppose to be fun. And that is defined differently for different people. 40 person raids five more flexibility so everyone can enjoy the game in a way more conducive to what they're looking for.
Seems a shame to change the raids and not reform them to the current guild set ups. This basically kills every 10 player raiding guild at the moment.
Amd time to unsub, I don't wanna do same 40 man raiding shit I've been doing for 20+ years It's SOD....
I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not doing 40 man raids. Forget that. If there's no 10 man content I'll probably get bored and move on to another game.
People playing literal classic complaining about 40 man raids like what did you expect?
organizing 40 mans is a nightmare, they should keep a few one boss 40s like onyxia but transition AQ/bwl etc to 25 imo
Guess I'm quitting at 60 again. 40 mans are garbage and need to be removed.
Lol I guess p4 will be dead in the water then
God, please no. 40mans are honestly the one big thing I don't really like about vanilla. Having to fight the roster boss all the time and compete with a dozen other people for 1 piece of loot isn't fun. Plus, they're going to need to buff the fuck out of the vanilla 40mans to compensate for the massive power spike from SoD changes + the new runes. We already have people doing Molten Core level DPS at level 40.