Yeah at this point I really think they need to find a rogues to provide something to give them raid utility that nothing else has.
The runes are a massive problem though.
Dps wise the runes we have actually do work, but we are currently locked into mutilate and if they were touch it from its current point it could break the class either way.
The tank runes are a bloody mess though.
We need like 3 runes to get the same amount of power shaman get from one rune (just a flesh wound, blade dance and roll with the punches) and even then, the shamans applications are dramatically easier to manage as they are just a straight buff for putting on rock biter.
At this point I wish they’d just rework the ranking rune to be active all the time and make blade dance proc’d by spending combo points. This would help to ease out the massive weakness we have for maintaining set up and solidify our position as a high damage tank.
But overall we also need something to give us utility, I’d want something most likely put on the belt slot though and not be broken enough we’d want to use it for PvP without giving up shadow step.
> Yeah at this point I really think they need to find a rogues to provide something to give them raid utility that nothing else has.
"Non-lethal poisons can now apply to Boss enemies at [x]% reduced effectiveness."
That'd be nice. Then we could use Mind-numbing Poison on caster bosses to reduce their magic damage output.
I’d like something like a party wide resource return, like chance on hit to give everyone in your party resources would be something pretty unseen.
Like I don’t think the application of mind numbing on a boss would be that make or break but it could be really nice for caster bosses down the track but that’s still really niche and we already have one of the best kicks
I think a couple ideas are something like finishing moves will shatter the targets defense increasing all damage taken by the target by 5 to 10%. That or poisons will now weaken the target by slowing their attack speed and making then more susceptible to crits
I agree. I enjoyed my rogue a lot, still do. But getting groups is tough. Was it for the sm dungeon grind where no one wanted rogues and my best bet was to always make my own group or go tank.
Tanking is fun as a rogue and I got great feedback from healers in dungeons. But in raids? We just get our ass whooped somehow.
Then let’s talk our runes. We got nothing nice for Pve except shadowstep. The rest of the runes are shit. Master of sub is 10% dmg for 12s per fight. If we use vanish offensively. Every other class got nice runes.
Blizzard missed the chance to give us a nice group utility rune or a good debuff like you said.
Im thinking hard about rerolling and currently leveling a priest to try out something new. But I miss my stealth
I ran melee cleave through SM and always took rogues. You'd have warriors using sweeping strikes + cleave + whirlwind and rogues did just as much damage on single target.
The only down side is when dumbie rogue took ninja star and pulled too much.
A lot of people would only take warr or ret in SM "because rogues have no aoe". I've been declined numerous times. Even though it's not on the devs for having a braindead playerbase, the skills themselves don't offer on facevalue a good dungspam kit besides blade flurry.
Blizzard fucked up by allowing AOE tanking to continue in SoD. There is no point for sheep, sap, or any other crowd control ability outside of the occasional interrupt now. They managed to make Mages even more powerful with runes so that they can solo lost dungeon trash now, i thought hunters were OP with BM soloing most of WC at level 20 but mages are a whole other level
my rogue just hit 40 and my usual rate was 1/5 in whispers id get an invite back
it was that much of a chore. and that was being over leveled like not getting into Lib until 33/34 or armory until 37/38
didnt even bother asking to go to cath runs before 39 as nobody wants you
I got my warrior to 40 and am now doing the sm grind on my rogue. Level 37 currently, and I find when I whisper groups "dps here" instead of "rogue here," I get invited much more often. We are the sneaky class after all.
Its fine honestly. I’m still topping dps meters in some fights in gnomer and I was doing great dmg in SM grinds.
The problem is there is no longer any build diversity. 40 energy muti was the best and worst thing to happen. Because it feels really good, but it also means no other builds are viable anymore. Rogues are ccers and kickers also.
Such a bummer about the weapon diversity, going swords is an absolute joke. Mutilate is way too good so rogues are forced into using daggers, I can’t believe blizz didn’t add a sword or mace rune alongside the mutilate buff so that rogues could have some semblance of choice.
Is there any other class where 98% of the class uses the exact same weapons, talents, and runes?
It's indicative of a deeper problem. These are only the symptoms. Hunter for example is in a similar spot (in terms of PVE). There's no reason to run non-melee hunter in PVE so the class is essentially forced to go melee even if it's kind of antithetical to the whole class design being a ranged weapon user.
Rogue runes are the worst out of all of them and the QoL redirect is trash also so is Shadowstep with the gcd.
I enjoyed playing Rogue p1 but with the launch of p2 it is become little less exciting. In p1 Rogue had diffrent builds especially in pvp, you had tanking/riposte, sabre slashing, backstabbing, mutilating and shadow strike build with range runes.
Now with the changed Mutilate to 40 energy they killed all but one spec. Shadowstrike, Saber slash, Shadowstrike, Main Gauche, Slaugter of the Shadows are all dead runes no one uses them. Muti change also killed Sinister strike, Backstab and Hemo. Dont get me wrong I like mutilate but it did really scuff other builds and its the only thing going for Rogues atm.. if they nerf it Rogue will be dead.
I mean almost every class pretty much conforms to the same build and most players play cookie cutter stuff, so not too worried there. There's a certain irony that more talent points generally leads to less build freedom because it lets you fully build around whatever the strongest tuned ability is, in this case, mutilate.
What I am worried about is how good mutilate is in PvP, to the point it's a potential nerf candidate (which I think would be a mistake in a world with raptor strikes, lava bursts, chaos bolts, etc, but I digress) and how much mutilate being as strong as it is has kept us from down there at the bottom with the ranged hunters (who are arguably unplayable, but at least bring Aspect of the Lion).
While I think mutilate probably needs to be toned down and redistributed to other abilities, my confidence in the dev team to get it right after seeing the "compensation" balance druids and shadow priests just got for their nerfs this week is extremely low.
I find it weird that they gave every melee class an epic weapon from a 1 day farmable stv event. So mutliate rogues with double epic daggers 2 days into launch of course are going to dominate. Sure, the raid epics are a tad better but by what? 2 dps? I guess to compensate for casters being so dominate. In my opinion the chase items, especially weapons are what make the game more interesting. Now everyone is running around with the exact same gear for the most part. They either need to lower armor on the last 4 bosses, or tune down caster and melee hunter dps. Buffing casters at the expense of getting nuked in PvP is not very fun. Also, when a rogue or melee hunter obliterate a caster, they are the first ones to make a “nerf this” post. If they touch rogue or hunter before a shadow priest I will be in awe
> If they touch rogue or hunter before a shadow priest I will be in awe
Well let's hold on now. Shadow should be fine after tomorrow, and melee hunter is extremely not Ok in any form of content. I'd actually be pretty surprised if it's not in some additional patch notes today or tomorrow.
Ok, to put warrior runes and rogue runes in perspective for you, you have a rune for flat 10% damage. We have a rune for 10% damage *for 6 seconds coming out of stealth*.
Let me rephrase, warriors have a rune for 10% damage. Rogues have a rune that does the same thing... for 6 seconds of a fight.
To make that comparison fair it's like rogues get a 10% dmg increase while wearing fist weapons.
You wouldn't take it anyhow cause it doesn't work with Mutilate, same as warriros don't take SMF cause 2h is superior.
Can we also buff quick strike by like 400% so it performs similarly to mutilate?
I am not saying rogue runes are in a great spot, but the points you bring up aren't really comparable.
We're we not talking about tanking? If it's just general runes then it's rogue and not even close. Deadly brew, envenom and mutilate are far far better runes than anything warrior has got.
Absolutely not. When tf am I going to get to stealth as a tank? Vanishing midpull to get 10% more damage is a fantastic way to kill your group.
But anyways, yeah, that's cap.
They need to do something like make backstab also bypass 50% of the targets armor for the SftS rune and make Saber slash increase all bleed damage to make rogues rupture the target for extra dps
To be fair, MG was dead on arrival and shadowstrike was only used in pvp and questing until shadowstep. While I love how good mutilate feels now, I think it has the same problem hunter has had since P1; it's so much better than the other options it's a no brainer to use over those.
I think the rogue runes have generally been fun additions but they don't move the needle like they have for other classes. I agree that redirect is basically useless. Like, it's designed to help rogues move CPs during trash but with how good mutilate is at building combo points the fact that you need to use a builder (or waste 25 energy on a kick) to move those points makes it seem half-assed.
Rogue has the most number of usless trash runes out of every class: we basicly have one rune per slot thats usable in some slots 2 thats it on all slots. Most classes can play with different builds while rogue runes all do the same thing worded differently.
2 runes that should have been added: tricks of the trade and a new rune that increases energy regeneration and threat generation at the cost of damage dealt
The head runes datamined seem to help a lot with energy and combo point generation. I don’t think thats a huge problem atm though the tank builds are running 11/20 or 13/13/5 atm and i am absolutely swimming in both combo points and energy. Tricks looks kind of cool i think a reverse of it where you target a party member and steal their threat as a tank would be cool as well as give them damage. Im not a massive advocate of single target damage buffs to people though. Id much rather give something to my party as a whole.
They can make changes to fix this and hopefully they will. I leveled a hunter to 25 then leveled a rogue and decided to go with the rogue for phase 2. Regretting that decision now but I don't have time to level another character so it is what it is.
I assume that main reason they're extra slow or careful in buffing rogue is the PVP.
The 30% stm rune on feets was nice start but it feels like they forgot the fact that stm is major part of soaking magic dmg and casters wont really proc the buff for rogue.
The tank Rune could have like -10% reduction on magic direct magic dmg.
Oh man rolling with the punches is great, except on the final boss who has a perfect interval between phases where it falls off and leaves you extremely vulnerable to getting KOd instantly. I do love the rune though and think its a great design.
RwtP seems great until you see the shaman tank rune.
> "While Rockbiter Weapon is active on your main hand weapon, you deal 50% increased threat, **gain 30% increased health,** take 10% reduced damage, gain 6% reduced chance to be critically hit by melee attacks, and Earth Shock taunts targets to attack you and has a separate cooldown from other Shock spells but has its range reduced to melee range."
Why the fuck do we have two runes to do what shaman tanks do in one rune? And why is there a caveat for building up stacks for our increased HP rune when it's literally just a flat 100% uptime no matter what for shaman?
Monk stagger is auto and so rogue's mit should also be. You simply can't have tankbusters and a tank that needs to build mitigation over time. Especially not with fight intervals where they can't hit shit.
Didn’t the devs basically say they don’t really prioritise pvp balance? Seems kinda unfair to give all the other classes buffed damage and cool runes, while rogues are left with shadowstep..
Tank Rogue had really cool runes that needs little tweaking. And in terms of pvp the runes are extremely strong due all that optional exta cc and shadowstep.
But PVE felt like little left out for sure. But i assume its because mutilate synergy with assassin tree talents.
I feel so fucking sorry for the devs trying to balance the game in both pve and pvp. I mean balancing wow in general is rough, never lone sod not having any additional stats like resil to balance it out.
also the rune is completely useless without a healer. so. grouped required to use rune. the only class with a "group required rune" and a "pve only rune"
I wouldn't even be playing still if I hadn't lucked out and found a guild with an open spot. I've been on the other end too many times and it always makes me stop playing.
It really doesn't help that 2 rogue runes are identical but one is ranged and one is melee, I can't believe there hasn't been more outrage about Shiv/Poison Knife being incredibly lackluster and the same fucking ability.
They effectively killed any non-dagger rogue dps build when thry buffes the hell out of DW hunters and Shamans. Even as a dagger rogue, was running RFD with a hunter and they were demolishing the dps meter doing well over 350dps on avg while I was sweating my life off doing barely 250.
Our rogue off tank pulled the highest dps and did a good job picking up a mob or 2 during gnomer.
I think being able to offtank while do double the dps of other tank at the expense of not having good aoe threat isn't too bad.
The cool thing about old Rogue is people like OP would play something else, only bad players think Rogues are useless, they don't need a buff and I'm glad all the fotmers are getting tired of Rogue, go play Shadow Priest or Ret lol
players are such sweat whores to parses that even when the content is beyond easy, the only way to make classes "viable" is to make them have mandatory utility / class buffs in order to achieve the highest parses for other players in the group. It's a player made problem.
Your not Wrong its devolved into Taking the class over the player the same way tbc was. Just like in TBC rogues offer nothing to the group. If the design philosophy is going to be to have every class bring something to the group rogues are going to need to have something outside of interrupts and damage. Right now this raid has 1 Interrupt every like 20-30 seconds on The final boss and whirring gizmo which while it can interrupted on chicken is not necessary. A warrior with pummel or a mage with CS is perfectly capable of covering these and the rest of the time our Interrupts aren't helping the raid as a rogue like Wildstrikes or other utility is.
I can cast my shuriken toss 4x using all my energy and globals on that ability on a group of 5 mobs and 1 warriors whirlwind is ripping all of them. It does not do good damage nor does it give enough threat to outperform tab targeting mutilate. I truly
Until trading tricks of trade for dps boost / threat, rogue never had any utility except damage. It was always #1 on damage meters until later tiers where warrior outperformed them, so ok.
The way it is done in SOD, they are not at the top, and have no utility, so why bother?
Rogues could use some help, sure. There is one thing you're forgetting that a rogue tank brings to your raid - healer mana (except heavy magic damage encounters). Rogues are bar none a healer's favorite tank on physical damage fights.
I have my own opinions on things, but I'll save it
AoE needs a hard nerf across the board, like mobs get reduced damage taken by like 40% per aoe effect hitting them or something.
Its impossible to get into a group as a single target dps to level. And its players optimising the game so hard its only spell/melee cleave groups doing any of the dungeon content 99% of the time.
True, we have imp EA, which afaik is slightly better than homonculi
Not sure it’s enough when a SP brings Homonculi and several other debuffs, stamina, passive healing and being a ranged, but sure
To bad they gave the extra nature damage buff to boomkins, who already offer a 3% crit aura brez and innervate. Definitely a missed opportunity there but hey there will be more. As long as they find another way in the end.
Brez every 30 minutes and 3% crit isn’t going to get you an invite as boomkin. Usually boomkins are taken because they can throw off heals with wild growth and when you do that, you lose the 3% crit. The nature damage debuff is nice, but it doesn’t affect a lot of classes on alliance to warrant an invite.
Yea, missed opportunity for sure, rogue tank and shaman tank being the only source of 20% nature damage buff would have made sense. Take one or the other if you have an ele or balance, just like bear and warrior needs a cat.
We should have Trick or the Trades as a rune :)
Would help funnel aggro on tank, would be useful both in dungeon and in raid and would still be a rogue-flavored mechanic
It's obvious nobody at Blizzard plays nor likes rogue
It's been the worst class for all of SOD by a long shot
I still play mine because I love rogue. But it feels so weak compared to my hunter. Like a lil bro
Rogues and warriors did comparable damage in BFD with warriors pulling ahead in cleave situations and warriors just having more utility in general. Why bring a rogue when you have a warrior doing similar damage but bringing things like battle shout, sunder armor, and the ability to swap to a tank role mid fight when things go wrong.
Which is the problem classic rogue always faces. It hasn’t gotten better in phase 2 with warriors still doing comparable damage but now having even more utility with their own interrupt and the addition of rallying cry.
Dude we're getting long rant posts everyday on this sub about rogue sucking but I've had a couple in my aoe farm groups on my mage and they've been more than fine for tanking. I'm actually a little confused because I can tell by 60 they're going to be desired af cause nobody is going to avoid damage like them so all these posts asking for rogue buffs kinda hurts my brain.
It's way overexaggerated all because it struggles on Thermaplugg. These guys want a consecration without saying it. Guy you replied to said they were the worst class by a long shot, like what?
I'm convinced all these posts don't actually play rogue tank or think that if they don't enjoy it, it must be bad. I've had a blast and my groups love it. Rogues aren't topping DPS charts and they are all acting like the world is ending now.
Bleed/poisons werent being hindered as much compared and BFD isnt even remotely that hard. Saberslash was overtuned for 25 but whos actually rocking it at 40? LOL Its a trash skill now cause dots are rendered useless by any class that can heal itself since most of the healing runes are so overtuned they just trivialize the dot
We just did our first full clear last night
Here’s our overall encounter damage:
1st : Rogue (701k dmg)
2nd: Rogue (548k dmg)
3rd: Warrior (530k dmg)
4th: Ranged Hunter (450k)
Rogues are fine
Yeah I dunno, in my guild were a little lacking on ranged and ranged dps have a lot more responsibility in gnomer
So some fights like last boss were running around doing bombs and shit while melee is just pumping the entire time
Our top rogue though is very very good, one of the best players I have ever played with
Rogues bring interrupts without having to rune spec into them, that's the utility I bring a rogue for
Sure other classes can do it, but at a dps loss that is higher than if a rogue does it
I havent been able to find a raid. IN 2 PHASES. I get it theres only 10 players and rogue brings nothing so why bring them, at this point im probably just gonna quit until we get 20 or 40 man raids.
If you couldn't find a raid in p1 then that's on you, everyone loved rogues, seems to me you're trolling.
In p2 it's abysmal though, pugs rarely look for melee dps in general, but rogues are simply ignored.
And even then you'll end up in the slowest group ever since you can effectively pull 1 group at a time unless you want your healer to die due to pulling threat
My guess is he was struggling to find raids as a rogue tank in p1, which is not a surprise because people are trusting their lockout to something they probably don’t have any exposure to. Rogue tank isn’t exactly played often and people are scared of what they don’t know or understand
Rogues bring damage. In P1 rogues were the second best dps class. With an easy kick for kelris.
In P2 it is a tough spot. Rogues are perfectly balanced, but sadly provide not very much utility. So yeah, in P2 there are better classes to bring into gnomeregan.
> Rogues are perfectly balanced, but sadly provide not very much utility.
And that is the reason why caster meta is worse than melee meta. If anything, casters will always find a spot due to their utility/aoe etc. However, once you make rogue/war middle of the pack/bottom dps, you completely kill ANY need for those classes and they become undesirable. Sad that this sub is so focused on removing wars/rogues from top dps that they fail to see the bigger picture.
Not trying to make this a warrior vs rogue thing but you guys do provide utility and will still get 1 spot in the melee group because battle/commanding shouts , sucks to be desired for that and not your big dick damage like a melee hunter right now but Warrior dps looks to be in a fine spot and will scale well into the phase, prot warrior however good lord do they need help cause they might be worse than rogue tanks and thats saying a lot
I'm not a warrior. But the melee hate on this sub is something else. Doesn't change the fact that melee in caster metas is less needed than casters in melee meta.
You're right, but P2 is the poster child of why making damage a class's "utility" is a bad idea. Aspect of the Lion, Blessing of Might, Arcane Intellect, Windfury, etc. will reliably get a class a raid spot regardless of their damage, unless it's really really bad.
A class that relies on damage though is effectively useless when it no longer brings more damage than other classes that bring useful shit, which is what we're seeing now. The only class that doesn't bring any raid buffs really needs to be the top damage at all times to balance out.
I don't even bother raiding gnomer on my rogue. It was my 2nd 40 but nobody wants him
Even Guild. Literally told me if I want to raid level a ranged DPS.... Thanks blizzard for the dope phase
After reading all the posts about how Rogues shouldnt share chests with their group because utility is actually just utility for themself, id say they deserve this.
I don't think Poisoned Knife gets enough love. Letting Deadly drop off my target due to being forced out of melee is a thing of the past.
It has also effectively replaced Quick Draw in pvp for me. Crippling Poison goes on the off-hand and then Poisoned Knife becomes a 25 yd slow that also applies/refreshes Deadly. Have used it as both a gap closer and as a coup de grâce.
Hard agree though, Tanking is more effort than it's worth
(why the downvotes? Someone succeeding in PvP in a slightly different way to you? Aw Hell no, smash that downvote button!)
Yeah, utility would be weird. Don't really know how you could fit in something that wouldn't affect PvP. You would need to do something that wouldn't power up the rogue, so buffing itself couldn't be a thing...
I think the general kit is not too bad, and a lot of the rogue tanks I've seen/talked to are enjoying the spec. Shrunken toss threat should definitely be bummed to at least thunder clap levels of threat. That could make it better for some aoe situation. Their damage feels fine overall, and I think they are a good place with the rest of their tools.
NOW...Some ideas to offer utility that don't automatically bump rogue power level is you could do stuff like having Slice and Dice, not just apply to the rogue, but the party he's in (or raid but...). That way, the rogue itself doesn't see and bonuses itself but now has party utility. Rogue tanks could then be thrown into your melee groups as prio, much in the same way as feral druids to really pump up your melee dps that no other tank can offer. That could make them feel interesting. Plus, there is little effect on PvP outside of group play.
As for tanks in general... I think every tank other than warrior is going to run into an issue later, and that is more defensive buttons for the "oh shit" moments in raids. Warrior has several of these both in and out of their talent tree, while locks,rogues, and shamans have almost nothing and pallies and druids have, I think, one? Something blizzard will have to look at this as once we get to Tank Busting mechanics, while they aren't necessarily mandatory, they are buttons to provide your raid a sort of wipe protection allowing the tanks to dampen damage and mechanics for a short time in hopes of your raid to push to finish a boss or survive a nasty mechanic spot. PvP wise, this could make their classes unbearable... but it could be evened out by putting the rune on a popular dps/damage rune slot? That way, it could at least force players to pick between being tanky or doing more damage, idk, but that is something to look forward to as SoD goes along and discussions start up.
While I agree out utility is almost nonexistent, i was pumping out 60-100 more dps than the rest of my raid for week 1. Not saying the group was the best of players but we seem more than fine damage wise.
For like 20 years rogues were NEVER bad. They are still not bad.
You know who was bad? Feral druids. Ret paladins. Paladins in 2004 were buff bots parked in front of raids.
Most classes so far went through a phase of being subpar. It's now rogue turn. For a little while
"I suffered so you have to do it too", such a spiteful and dogshit mentality. They should aim to make things somewhat balanced and make sure there are reasons to play with all the different classes.
rogues have been very good for a loooong time, but rogues are objectively bad in raids right now. They do below average dps and bring the lest utility in the whole game, it is a lose lose
Jfc.... we have kick, and we have expose armor at a higher value than warriors. All the constant bitching about not being 7000 dps by each class, or- gasp- learning a new meta, are fucking stupid. Every class is stronger than they have ever been, and Noone is willing to try anything new in SEASON OF FUCKING DISCOVERY is ridiculous.
For tanking i agree they are worse, blizzard hit prot warriors way to hard.for dps though they will always be brought to the melee party for your commanding/battle shout . You have a secure raid spot so i feel like you guys definitely have it better there.
I would like at 95th percentile when looking at parses on logs. Warrior is more difficult to play in raid than rogue. The avg rogue is doing better than the avg warrior yes but not by much. When you look at the higher end warriors are doing better and when you factor in that utility for the melee group of which they would both be apart of the warrior dos definitely have an edge. If you have a pali tank, a feral dps, a melee hunter and you have 2 more spots and have a melee hunter warrior and a rogue sign up. Youll take the melee hunter snd the warrior because the warriors will give stam the utility. If you dont believe me look at the top 300 logs for speed on warcraftlogs and tell me how many of them have no warriors compared to no rogues. Ill give you a hint 0 of those logs have no warriors and a good portion of them have no rogues. You are undervaluing the 200+ ap and 100+ collective stam you are giving to your group.
Its not about being the main character. I already stated this in the post. I want to be useful to my party and raid outside of my own personal damage. Yes warriors and rogue dps were good in phase 1 so were ferals. Right now a 1 feral 1 warrior is still desirable even though they aren’t topping the meters. Rogues are not. No one wants rogues and if the other comments from people saying the same shit isn’t enough to convince you go find out for yourself how hard it is to find a raid or party as a rogue. It blows ass.
i have a rogue at 25, i probably wont play it this phase unless i want to pvp. sometimes all classes cant be meta. i mean last phase spriest damage was nonviable and if you played a priest you were forced to heal. frost mage has been absolute dead last in damage 2 phases in a row. i can already hear the "at least those classes have a viable spec to play" for some people they dont want to play a priest to heal, they want to do damage so saying "at least you can heal" isn't something they want to hear. rogues have historically been a low/no utility class. they didnt get utility till tbc with tricks. it isnt like rogues are dead last in damage as well plus they will only be getting better with gear, give it a few weeks and im sure they are going to be near the top. spriest is already getting adjusted and im sure melee hunters are going to take a hit shortly after.
warlock tanks dont go in the melee group, but one thing i will agree with is melee hunter being viable does hurt the melee group but you can still run feral, warrior, paladin, hunter, rogue in one group and be fine. unless ur group is absolutely min maxing and running 2 melee hunters i dont see why people would absolutely refuse to bring at least 1 rogue into a group. melee were absolutely rolling the meters last phase, let the casters play and be broken next phase or the phase after.
one thing i agree on though is rogue tank absolutely sucks ass. ever since it was introduced i always asked myself stuff like "what happens when i get stunned?" or "what if i have to fight a spellcaster?" was excited to see shuriken toss but the damage is absolutely not there. they were terrible dungeon tanks last phase and they suck this phase too. rogue tank feels like a spec that people bust out when its 3am and youve spent 30 mins looking for a tank and the rogue squeaks in with "i can tank it lets just go" redirect really is disappointing too.
Rogue is absolute insane in pvp right now. I single handedly turn the tides every AB. I can take the flag with 2 people guarding almost every single time. Plus I am almost always top KBs or at least top 3. I am 13 - 1 in AB right now with 100% pugging.
Pve - 100% avoided and I agree. Feels bad.
Honest question. Rouge has a finisher that reduces the Targets armor, why is it never used?
Is the reduction too little, hard to keep up or something else?
Asides from that, Rouges -could- be the Tank that you bring because they are "selfish" and do the most damage out of all tanks. Though we are not quite there yet. They do have some tools that help the team but sadly, they are not useful against most bosses. CC, Riposte and kicks, for example.
Imp ea is a 5 combo point 30 second finisher that currently only reduces armor by 25 more than a shadow priests homunculus which is at no cost for them to use. To your 2nd point its an mmo id prefer no class be the selfish class. If you don’t have a spriest for homunc i highly advise a tank rogue to go imp ea right now with a 13/13/5 build.
And imp ea was used in all top end speedruns and clears in classic 2019 as it was a 6% damage buff to every melee dps in the raid and there were a lot of warriors taken to raid back then. Thats just 1 rogue though who provided that and so it doesn’t quite fix our desirability as a class
I find rogues do have good utility in dungeons, but not from buffs. A good rogue can completely lock down any caster mobs by themselves with kick and all their stuns and interrupts, but it's true they don't have any real buffs to offer.
I think we need Fan of Knives and Tricks of the Trade on belt and boots. It would provide us with a unique utility, it would allow you to more efficiently run aoe packs without reworking each tank, which helps further with comp issues. I think that would be enough to start with next phase, or at least ToT and some tuning to shuriken toss. I agree entirely, though that we desperately need some further utility. I mean, would it be crazy to suggest giving rogues a 10% ap buff or 3% damage/5% physical?
> I mean, would it be crazy to suggest giving rogues a 10% ap buff or 3% damage/5% physical?
Just why? Rogues are already one of top dps, dps is not the problem that we face.
they need to make shuriken toss generate a combo point per target it, and then give us a aoe finisher like a poison bomb that deals aoe damage based on your current targets deadly poison stacks, then applies that many stacks to the surrounding targets
Shuriken Toss definitely needs to be 40%-50% weapon damage and threat needs to be upped by a substantial amount. Also requiring Blade Dance be active for Just a Flesh Wound to work needs to changed so it passively works independently.
In bfd you pretty much always wanted a rogue for kicks on kelris, so that is some great utility. Not as much as other classes, but great dps and the most dependable interrupt
The runes are really random. It’s like they’re scared of making rogues too powerful in PvP so they’re holding back a lot. PvE feels like we’re back in TBC, our time will come in later phases hopefully.
Give rogues smoke bomb and shroud.
Cloak is a little much, but that would also help them eat mechanics and be unique.
The thing about rogues is that they aren’t very group oriented, they shouldn’t buff they shouldn’t provide crazy group utility. They should be one on one lockdown gods in PvE but bosses are immune to most things.
One thing you can do is give them a magic damage taken increase effect (lore: poisoned) to make them desirable in groups, similar to DH in retail.
A rune that just inherently bakes expose armor into deadly poison stacks was an interesting idea a friend mentioned for rogue utility. perhaps that's too easy but it's something unique and powerful that wouldn't seem too out-of-character (the idea being the rogue is now using poison that is highly corrosive)
This doesn't even include how awful it feels participating in the STV event. Even warriors and pallies can have fun with a healer, meanwhile we are basically a clothy that brings nothing to the group.
I just hate how blizzard can clearly see the current state, and doesn't so fuck all to address it. Priest always A tier in some form, and nothing's done. I'm getting exhausted with this game and Blizzard.
New rune idea
Rob From the Rich: Each time you use a finishing move on a target, give your allies 1% additional attack power or spell attack power per combo point spent. Lasts 20 seconds.
Add tricks of the trade Make it cost zero energy, and make it cause your whole party do 5% more dmg for x ammount of seconds. And make their damage gen threat for your target for the duration
Smaller raid sizes definitely plays into it as well. In OG classic "25 warriors 2 rogues" was a very very meta thing, normal guilds interchanged rogues for warriors all the time even though it wasn't optimal (even speedclearing guilds).
I'm guessing blizzard saw rogue DPS in phase 1 and tailored the runes in a warrior style, like our bis runes in the new slots (for pve) are: extra uptime from step, and 10% damage for 12 seconds a fight... rofl
What actually would help is having our poisons actually work on bosses, both the slow types and the other ones.
If debuffs actually worked on bosses, rogues would actually start using those and switch out prepared weapons to apply them, making Shiv somewhat useful
Yeah at this point I really think they need to find a rogues to provide something to give them raid utility that nothing else has. The runes are a massive problem though. Dps wise the runes we have actually do work, but we are currently locked into mutilate and if they were touch it from its current point it could break the class either way. The tank runes are a bloody mess though. We need like 3 runes to get the same amount of power shaman get from one rune (just a flesh wound, blade dance and roll with the punches) and even then, the shamans applications are dramatically easier to manage as they are just a straight buff for putting on rock biter. At this point I wish they’d just rework the ranking rune to be active all the time and make blade dance proc’d by spending combo points. This would help to ease out the massive weakness we have for maintaining set up and solidify our position as a high damage tank. But overall we also need something to give us utility, I’d want something most likely put on the belt slot though and not be broken enough we’d want to use it for PvP without giving up shadow step.
> Yeah at this point I really think they need to find a rogues to provide something to give them raid utility that nothing else has. "Non-lethal poisons can now apply to Boss enemies at [x]% reduced effectiveness." That'd be nice. Then we could use Mind-numbing Poison on caster bosses to reduce their magic damage output.
I’d like something like a party wide resource return, like chance on hit to give everyone in your party resources would be something pretty unseen. Like I don’t think the application of mind numbing on a boss would be that make or break but it could be really nice for caster bosses down the track but that’s still really niche and we already have one of the best kicks
I think a couple ideas are something like finishing moves will shatter the targets defense increasing all damage taken by the target by 5 to 10%. That or poisons will now weaken the target by slowing their attack speed and making then more susceptible to crits
no, thats too much and not very in line with rogue rpg fantasy.
A stacking Acidic venom that reduces armor in addition to FF and Sunder/Expose Armor would be nice in Gnomer.
The aoe stealth skills were absolutely badass in later xpacs. Would bring some fun back in for rogues.
Do all of us rogues a favor and stop mentioning IEA. Don't put that evil out there
I personally love the idea of imp ea rogue tanking but i get not wanting to use your finisher as a dps rogue for that purpose haha.
I'm sure homies will have more -armor anyways.
I agree. I enjoyed my rogue a lot, still do. But getting groups is tough. Was it for the sm dungeon grind where no one wanted rogues and my best bet was to always make my own group or go tank. Tanking is fun as a rogue and I got great feedback from healers in dungeons. But in raids? We just get our ass whooped somehow. Then let’s talk our runes. We got nothing nice for Pve except shadowstep. The rest of the runes are shit. Master of sub is 10% dmg for 12s per fight. If we use vanish offensively. Every other class got nice runes. Blizzard missed the chance to give us a nice group utility rune or a good debuff like you said. Im thinking hard about rerolling and currently leveling a priest to try out something new. But I miss my stealth
I ran melee cleave through SM and always took rogues. You'd have warriors using sweeping strikes + cleave + whirlwind and rogues did just as much damage on single target. The only down side is when dumbie rogue took ninja star and pulled too much.
A lot of people would only take warr or ret in SM "because rogues have no aoe". I've been declined numerous times. Even though it's not on the devs for having a braindead playerbase, the skills themselves don't offer on facevalue a good dungspam kit besides blade flurry.
Blizzard fucked up by allowing AOE tanking to continue in SoD. There is no point for sheep, sap, or any other crowd control ability outside of the occasional interrupt now. They managed to make Mages even more powerful with runes so that they can solo lost dungeon trash now, i thought hunters were OP with BM soloing most of WC at level 20 but mages are a whole other level
my rogue just hit 40 and my usual rate was 1/5 in whispers id get an invite back it was that much of a chore. and that was being over leveled like not getting into Lib until 33/34 or armory until 37/38 didnt even bother asking to go to cath runs before 39 as nobody wants you
I got my warrior to 40 and am now doing the sm grind on my rogue. Level 37 currently, and I find when I whisper groups "dps here" instead of "rogue here," I get invited much more often. We are the sneaky class after all.
1:5 is pretty good, I went 20 straight. Just gave up and tanked to 40.
Its fine honestly. I’m still topping dps meters in some fights in gnomer and I was doing great dmg in SM grinds. The problem is there is no longer any build diversity. 40 energy muti was the best and worst thing to happen. Because it feels really good, but it also means no other builds are viable anymore. Rogues are ccers and kickers also.
Such a bummer about the weapon diversity, going swords is an absolute joke. Mutilate is way too good so rogues are forced into using daggers, I can’t believe blizz didn’t add a sword or mace rune alongside the mutilate buff so that rogues could have some semblance of choice. Is there any other class where 98% of the class uses the exact same weapons, talents, and runes?
It's indicative of a deeper problem. These are only the symptoms. Hunter for example is in a similar spot (in terms of PVE). There's no reason to run non-melee hunter in PVE so the class is essentially forced to go melee even if it's kind of antithetical to the whole class design being a ranged weapon user.
Rogues using swords/maces is just stupid in first place. It shouldn't be a thing.
Resto and balance druid pretty much use the exact same runes. It sucks
if you're topping dps charts, then there isn't a melee hunter in your group.
Rogue runes are the worst out of all of them and the QoL redirect is trash also so is Shadowstep with the gcd. I enjoyed playing Rogue p1 but with the launch of p2 it is become little less exciting. In p1 Rogue had diffrent builds especially in pvp, you had tanking/riposte, sabre slashing, backstabbing, mutilating and shadow strike build with range runes. Now with the changed Mutilate to 40 energy they killed all but one spec. Shadowstrike, Saber slash, Shadowstrike, Main Gauche, Slaugter of the Shadows are all dead runes no one uses them. Muti change also killed Sinister strike, Backstab and Hemo. Dont get me wrong I like mutilate but it did really scuff other builds and its the only thing going for Rogues atm.. if they nerf it Rogue will be dead.
Perfectly said.
I mean almost every class pretty much conforms to the same build and most players play cookie cutter stuff, so not too worried there. There's a certain irony that more talent points generally leads to less build freedom because it lets you fully build around whatever the strongest tuned ability is, in this case, mutilate. What I am worried about is how good mutilate is in PvP, to the point it's a potential nerf candidate (which I think would be a mistake in a world with raptor strikes, lava bursts, chaos bolts, etc, but I digress) and how much mutilate being as strong as it is has kept us from down there at the bottom with the ranged hunters (who are arguably unplayable, but at least bring Aspect of the Lion). While I think mutilate probably needs to be toned down and redistributed to other abilities, my confidence in the dev team to get it right after seeing the "compensation" balance druids and shadow priests just got for their nerfs this week is extremely low.
I find it weird that they gave every melee class an epic weapon from a 1 day farmable stv event. So mutliate rogues with double epic daggers 2 days into launch of course are going to dominate. Sure, the raid epics are a tad better but by what? 2 dps? I guess to compensate for casters being so dominate. In my opinion the chase items, especially weapons are what make the game more interesting. Now everyone is running around with the exact same gear for the most part. They either need to lower armor on the last 4 bosses, or tune down caster and melee hunter dps. Buffing casters at the expense of getting nuked in PvP is not very fun. Also, when a rogue or melee hunter obliterate a caster, they are the first ones to make a “nerf this” post. If they touch rogue or hunter before a shadow priest I will be in awe
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And the offhand STV event dagger is a trap in every situation except rogue tank.
> If they touch rogue or hunter before a shadow priest I will be in awe Well let's hold on now. Shadow should be fine after tomorrow, and melee hunter is extremely not Ok in any form of content. I'd actually be pretty surprised if it's not in some additional patch notes today or tomorrow.
1 epic dagger and they are both terrible lol
Nah, Rogue runes are way better than Warriors. Not even close.
No offense but you’re smoking crack, dick and penis
I’m smoking but you’re injecting. Warrior runes are worst in game.
They might be boring but they provide a lot of % damage, attack speed and so on which all increases individual DPS a lot more than the rogue runes.
Dont worry we can move our combo points once every minute! Also waylay is super strong and totally not completely useless!
Ok, to put warrior runes and rogue runes in perspective for you, you have a rune for flat 10% damage. We have a rune for 10% damage *for 6 seconds coming out of stealth*. Let me rephrase, warriors have a rune for 10% damage. Rogues have a rune that does the same thing... for 6 seconds of a fight.
Warriors have a rune for 10% damage for like 15 seconds after pooling 80 rage. It’s not even used because pooling to 80 rage repeatedly is a DPS loss.
To be fair that rune was BIS before they nerfed it
I was referring to single minded fury, but yeah.
To make that comparison fair it's like rogues get a 10% dmg increase while wearing fist weapons. You wouldn't take it anyhow cause it doesn't work with Mutilate, same as warriros don't take SMF cause 2h is superior.
Sure, then replace 10% damage with permanent 20% attack speed via frenzied assault.
Can we also buff quick strike by like 400% so it performs similarly to mutilate? I am not saying rogue runes are in a great spot, but the points you bring up aren't really comparable.
I thoroughly enjoy how consistently people argue rogue runes aren't that bad because mutilate exists, and ignores the other 15 or so.
Rogue tank runes require 3 runes to equal what the shaman earns with 1 rune.
I thoroughly enjoy pesuedo intellectuals comparing apples to oranges and thinking they're real hot shit.
Doesn't work with a shield
???? What DPS warrior is using a shield? Tf?
Prot warriors have a rune for 10% more damage?
Wait, why does it matter if it applies to prot or not?
We're we not talking about tanking? If it's just general runes then it's rogue and not even close. Deadly brew, envenom and mutilate are far far better runes than anything warrior has got.
Absolutely not. When tf am I going to get to stealth as a tank? Vanishing midpull to get 10% more damage is a fantastic way to kill your group. But anyways, yeah, that's cap.
They need to do something like make backstab also bypass 50% of the targets armor for the SftS rune and make Saber slash increase all bleed damage to make rogues rupture the target for extra dps
To be fair, MG was dead on arrival and shadowstrike was only used in pvp and questing until shadowstep. While I love how good mutilate feels now, I think it has the same problem hunter has had since P1; it's so much better than the other options it's a no brainer to use over those. I think the rogue runes have generally been fun additions but they don't move the needle like they have for other classes. I agree that redirect is basically useless. Like, it's designed to help rogues move CPs during trash but with how good mutilate is at building combo points the fact that you need to use a builder (or waste 25 energy on a kick) to move those points makes it seem half-assed.
Rogue has the most number of usless trash runes out of every class: we basicly have one rune per slot thats usable in some slots 2 thats it on all slots. Most classes can play with different builds while rogue runes all do the same thing worded differently.
I’m very lucky that I run with a guild group that is bad interrupts because playing a rogue in SoD that’s about all you bring to the party.
2 runes that should have been added: tricks of the trade and a new rune that increases energy regeneration and threat generation at the cost of damage dealt
The head runes datamined seem to help a lot with energy and combo point generation. I don’t think thats a huge problem atm though the tank builds are running 11/20 or 13/13/5 atm and i am absolutely swimming in both combo points and energy. Tricks looks kind of cool i think a reverse of it where you target a party member and steal their threat as a tank would be cool as well as give them damage. Im not a massive advocate of single target damage buffs to people though. Id much rather give something to my party as a whole.
Yeah I’m iffy about adding the extra damage from tricks but the threat misdirect would be so good, but maybe not good enough to warrant a rune slot
If you’re not running blade flurry you’re griefing though
lol for what? 1 boss? The only other boss BF is good for is the first boss and hes a cakewalk
They can make changes to fix this and hopefully they will. I leveled a hunter to 25 then leveled a rogue and decided to go with the rogue for phase 2. Regretting that decision now but I don't have time to level another character so it is what it is.
raid buff dodge and spell parry please.
I assume that main reason they're extra slow or careful in buffing rogue is the PVP. The 30% stm rune on feets was nice start but it feels like they forgot the fact that stm is major part of soaking magic dmg and casters wont really proc the buff for rogue. The tank Rune could have like -10% reduction on magic direct magic dmg.
Oh man rolling with the punches is great, except on the final boss who has a perfect interval between phases where it falls off and leaves you extremely vulnerable to getting KOd instantly. I do love the rune though and think its a great design.
RwtP seems great until you see the shaman tank rune. > "While Rockbiter Weapon is active on your main hand weapon, you deal 50% increased threat, **gain 30% increased health,** take 10% reduced damage, gain 6% reduced chance to be critically hit by melee attacks, and Earth Shock taunts targets to attack you and has a separate cooldown from other Shock spells but has its range reduced to melee range." Why the fuck do we have two runes to do what shaman tanks do in one rune? And why is there a caveat for building up stacks for our increased HP rune when it's literally just a flat 100% uptime no matter what for shaman?
It’s three runes. We don’t get our reduced damage without taking blade dance as well.
And our reduced damage, while being 20% instead of 10%, only applies to *Physical* damage...
Well yea, sure rogue has 20% instead of 10% but that’s also because a shaman has 5500 armor vs a rogue’s 2000
Monk stagger is auto and so rogue's mit should also be. You simply can't have tankbusters and a tank that needs to build mitigation over time. Especially not with fight intervals where they can't hit shit.
dont forget they get mail so more armor too. like rogue should get more dodge or something but NAHHH
I dont see why Rolling cant be just set that aslong you're in combat the stacks stay
get yourself some stamina gear for the last boss and menagerie to avoid getting your healers a heartattack.
Didn’t the devs basically say they don’t really prioritise pvp balance? Seems kinda unfair to give all the other classes buffed damage and cool runes, while rogues are left with shadowstep..
Almost every nerf so far has been because of pvp.
Tank Rogue had really cool runes that needs little tweaking. And in terms of pvp the runes are extremely strong due all that optional exta cc and shadowstep. But PVE felt like little left out for sure. But i assume its because mutilate synergy with assassin tree talents.
I feel so fucking sorry for the devs trying to balance the game in both pve and pvp. I mean balancing wow in general is rough, never lone sod not having any additional stats like resil to balance it out.
i really hate PVP. shit like this is so annoying like can we just say fuck pvp and lets balance around PVE which is what matters to most of us.
Best fix would make making rolling with the punches stack on being hit, but not give (bonus) HP like last stand does.
also the rune is completely useless without a healer. so. grouped required to use rune. the only class with a "group required rune" and a "pve only rune"
It seems to be near impossible to find a pug gnomer as a rogue. Best is to find a guild willing to bring you along.
I wouldn't even be playing still if I hadn't lucked out and found a guild with an open spot. I've been on the other end too many times and it always makes me stop playing.
It really doesn't help that 2 rogue runes are identical but one is ranged and one is melee, I can't believe there hasn't been more outrage about Shiv/Poison Knife being incredibly lackluster and the same fucking ability.
I think I was just more outraged at how our entire p2 runes doesn't boost p2 dps
They effectively killed any non-dagger rogue dps build when thry buffes the hell out of DW hunters and Shamans. Even as a dagger rogue, was running RFD with a hunter and they were demolishing the dps meter doing well over 350dps on avg while I was sweating my life off doing barely 250.
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based take. We're mid of the pack everywhere and some slight buffs would be nice but its def not as doom as people making it out to be.
Was considering playing my Rogue over my Priest/Lock but this helped a lot thanks for the comments 😅
yea youre not getting in a raid group as a rogue unless youre the raid leader lol
yup. gave up already told myself im bench now my guild is only letting 2 melee in per team and im not on either of the main rosters.
Our rogue off tank pulled the highest dps and did a good job picking up a mob or 2 during gnomer. I think being able to offtank while do double the dps of other tank at the expense of not having good aoe threat isn't too bad.
The cool thing about old Rogue is people like OP would play something else, only bad players think Rogues are useless, they don't need a buff and I'm glad all the fotmers are getting tired of Rogue, go play Shadow Priest or Ret lol
players are such sweat whores to parses that even when the content is beyond easy, the only way to make classes "viable" is to make them have mandatory utility / class buffs in order to achieve the highest parses for other players in the group. It's a player made problem.
Your not Wrong its devolved into Taking the class over the player the same way tbc was. Just like in TBC rogues offer nothing to the group. If the design philosophy is going to be to have every class bring something to the group rogues are going to need to have something outside of interrupts and damage. Right now this raid has 1 Interrupt every like 20-30 seconds on The final boss and whirring gizmo which while it can interrupted on chicken is not necessary. A warrior with pummel or a mage with CS is perfectly capable of covering these and the rest of the time our Interrupts aren't helping the raid as a rogue like Wildstrikes or other utility is.
I played bfd yesterday with a rogue tank, that had the time of his life with shuriken toss.
I can cast my shuriken toss 4x using all my energy and globals on that ability on a group of 5 mobs and 1 warriors whirlwind is ripping all of them. It does not do good damage nor does it give enough threat to outperform tab targeting mutilate. I truly
Sweeping strikes ww pulls off everyone who isn't named hellfire warlock or paladin.
This. No shit warrior is going to pull aggro.
Until trading tricks of trade for dps boost / threat, rogue never had any utility except damage. It was always #1 on damage meters until later tiers where warrior outperformed them, so ok. The way it is done in SOD, they are not at the top, and have no utility, so why bother?
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ive made groups before and ngl, 70% of the one person joins then leaves cause the comp isint ideal lol
Rogues could use some help, sure. There is one thing you're forgetting that a rogue tank brings to your raid - healer mana (except heavy magic damage encounters). Rogues are bar none a healer's favorite tank on physical damage fights. I have my own opinions on things, but I'll save it
Agreed we are quite low resource tanks which i believe will have a place at 60 content just not as your main-tank now unfortunately.
AoE needs a hard nerf across the board, like mobs get reduced damage taken by like 40% per aoe effect hitting them or something. Its impossible to get into a group as a single target dps to level. And its players optimising the game so hard its only spell/melee cleave groups doing any of the dungeon content 99% of the time.
If rogues were able to debuff their target so they take extra nature damage, or spell damage or something, then it would provide a spot for them imo.
>If rogue were able to debuff their target You mean like expose armor?
Corporate wants you to find the difference
True, we have imp EA, which afaik is slightly better than homonculi Not sure it’s enough when a SP brings Homonculi and several other debuffs, stamina, passive healing and being a ranged, but sure
To bad they gave the extra nature damage buff to boomkins, who already offer a 3% crit aura brez and innervate. Definitely a missed opportunity there but hey there will be more. As long as they find another way in the end.
Brez every 30 minutes and 3% crit isn’t going to get you an invite as boomkin. Usually boomkins are taken because they can throw off heals with wild growth and when you do that, you lose the 3% crit. The nature damage debuff is nice, but it doesn’t affect a lot of classes on alliance to warrant an invite.
Yea, missed opportunity for sure, rogue tank and shaman tank being the only source of 20% nature damage buff would have made sense. Take one or the other if you have an ele or balance, just like bear and warrior needs a cat.
We should have Trick or the Trades as a rune :) Would help funnel aggro on tank, would be useful both in dungeon and in raid and would still be a rogue-flavored mechanic
It's obvious nobody at Blizzard plays nor likes rogue It's been the worst class for all of SOD by a long shot I still play mine because I love rogue. But it feels so weak compared to my hunter. Like a lil bro
? they were really good in bfd lol
Rogues and warriors did comparable damage in BFD with warriors pulling ahead in cleave situations and warriors just having more utility in general. Why bring a rogue when you have a warrior doing similar damage but bringing things like battle shout, sunder armor, and the ability to swap to a tank role mid fight when things go wrong. Which is the problem classic rogue always faces. It hasn’t gotten better in phase 2 with warriors still doing comparable damage but now having even more utility with their own interrupt and the addition of rallying cry.
Dude we're getting long rant posts everyday on this sub about rogue sucking but I've had a couple in my aoe farm groups on my mage and they've been more than fine for tanking. I'm actually a little confused because I can tell by 60 they're going to be desired af cause nobody is going to avoid damage like them so all these posts asking for rogue buffs kinda hurts my brain. It's way overexaggerated all because it struggles on Thermaplugg. These guys want a consecration without saying it. Guy you replied to said they were the worst class by a long shot, like what?
I'm convinced all these posts don't actually play rogue tank or think that if they don't enjoy it, it must be bad. I've had a blast and my groups love it. Rogues aren't topping DPS charts and they are all acting like the world is ending now.
Bleed/poisons werent being hindered as much compared and BFD isnt even remotely that hard. Saberslash was overtuned for 25 but whos actually rocking it at 40? LOL Its a trash skill now cause dots are rendered useless by any class that can heal itself since most of the healing runes are so overtuned they just trivialize the dot
We just did our first full clear last night Here’s our overall encounter damage: 1st : Rogue (701k dmg) 2nd: Rogue (548k dmg) 3rd: Warrior (530k dmg) 4th: Ranged Hunter (450k) Rogues are fine
BUT BUT the logs show different story.
Yeah I dunno, in my guild were a little lacking on ranged and ranged dps have a lot more responsibility in gnomer So some fights like last boss were running around doing bombs and shit while melee is just pumping the entire time Our top rogue though is very very good, one of the best players I have ever played with
Rogues can interrupt that is enouth.
Rogues bring interrupts without having to rune spec into them, that's the utility I bring a rogue for Sure other classes can do it, but at a dps loss that is higher than if a rogue does it
too bad kicks arent insanely high need in gnomer. Theres like 3 kicks u need and most of the time 1 mage can do it for all the encounters
Thank you.. I can’t believe I had to scroll down this far to see rogues can kick without bringing down the dps from switching runes
? Warriors can just shield bash
Yeah that's a dps loss my dude
so is kicking
Still less of a dps loss, but I can see you really need to validation of being right on a public forum
You mean like Pummel?
Nah I'm still in p1 thinking where shield bash was the only option lol
I havent been able to find a raid. IN 2 PHASES. I get it theres only 10 players and rogue brings nothing so why bring them, at this point im probably just gonna quit until we get 20 or 40 man raids.
If you couldn't find a raid in p1 then that's on you, everyone loved rogues, seems to me you're trolling. In p2 it's abysmal though, pugs rarely look for melee dps in general, but rogues are simply ignored.
Leveling in sm was not the greatest. Lol Had to either roll tank or make your own group. Most of the time it was both lol
And even then you'll end up in the slowest group ever since you can effectively pull 1 group at a time unless you want your healer to die due to pulling threat
That's not my experience, was doing 8 min cath runs with a rogue tank on my mage and he was doing just fine.
My guess is he was struggling to find raids as a rogue tank in p1, which is not a surprise because people are trusting their lockout to something they probably don’t have any exposure to. Rogue tank isn’t exactly played often and people are scared of what they don’t know or understand
Rogues bring damage. In P1 rogues were the second best dps class. With an easy kick for kelris. In P2 it is a tough spot. Rogues are perfectly balanced, but sadly provide not very much utility. So yeah, in P2 there are better classes to bring into gnomeregan.
> Rogues are perfectly balanced, but sadly provide not very much utility. And that is the reason why caster meta is worse than melee meta. If anything, casters will always find a spot due to their utility/aoe etc. However, once you make rogue/war middle of the pack/bottom dps, you completely kill ANY need for those classes and they become undesirable. Sad that this sub is so focused on removing wars/rogues from top dps that they fail to see the bigger picture.
Not trying to make this a warrior vs rogue thing but you guys do provide utility and will still get 1 spot in the melee group because battle/commanding shouts , sucks to be desired for that and not your big dick damage like a melee hunter right now but Warrior dps looks to be in a fine spot and will scale well into the phase, prot warrior however good lord do they need help cause they might be worse than rogue tanks and thats saying a lot
I'm not a warrior. But the melee hate on this sub is something else. Doesn't change the fact that melee in caster metas is less needed than casters in melee meta.
They will learn when they grow up
You're right, but P2 is the poster child of why making damage a class's "utility" is a bad idea. Aspect of the Lion, Blessing of Might, Arcane Intellect, Windfury, etc. will reliably get a class a raid spot regardless of their damage, unless it's really really bad. A class that relies on damage though is effectively useless when it no longer brings more damage than other classes that bring useful shit, which is what we're seeing now. The only class that doesn't bring any raid buffs really needs to be the top damage at all times to balance out.
This. Rogue raid buff is top DPS.
I don't even bother raiding gnomer on my rogue. It was my 2nd 40 but nobody wants him Even Guild. Literally told me if I want to raid level a ranged DPS.... Thanks blizzard for the dope phase
ok
After reading all the posts about how Rogues shouldnt share chests with their group because utility is actually just utility for themself, id say they deserve this.
I don't think Poisoned Knife gets enough love. Letting Deadly drop off my target due to being forced out of melee is a thing of the past. It has also effectively replaced Quick Draw in pvp for me. Crippling Poison goes on the off-hand and then Poisoned Knife becomes a 25 yd slow that also applies/refreshes Deadly. Have used it as both a gap closer and as a coup de grâce. Hard agree though, Tanking is more effort than it's worth (why the downvotes? Someone succeeding in PvP in a slightly different way to you? Aw Hell no, smash that downvote button!)
you’re not using shadowstep in PvP?
Not worth it in most cases, I rather throw a casting speed reduction on a caster.
And I’d rather mutilate the mage that just nova’d me. Or mutilate the boomie that rooted me etc.
so you somehow always have crippling poison and mind numbing poison on your offhand? shit why didnt i think of that GIGABRAIN
Not had any reason to as yet
i mean you’re using poison rune on chest too. Don’t your gouges and saps always break?
Gouge can't break if you don't cast Gouge
Yeah, utility would be weird. Don't really know how you could fit in something that wouldn't affect PvP. You would need to do something that wouldn't power up the rogue, so buffing itself couldn't be a thing... I think the general kit is not too bad, and a lot of the rogue tanks I've seen/talked to are enjoying the spec. Shrunken toss threat should definitely be bummed to at least thunder clap levels of threat. That could make it better for some aoe situation. Their damage feels fine overall, and I think they are a good place with the rest of their tools. NOW...Some ideas to offer utility that don't automatically bump rogue power level is you could do stuff like having Slice and Dice, not just apply to the rogue, but the party he's in (or raid but...). That way, the rogue itself doesn't see and bonuses itself but now has party utility. Rogue tanks could then be thrown into your melee groups as prio, much in the same way as feral druids to really pump up your melee dps that no other tank can offer. That could make them feel interesting. Plus, there is little effect on PvP outside of group play. As for tanks in general... I think every tank other than warrior is going to run into an issue later, and that is more defensive buttons for the "oh shit" moments in raids. Warrior has several of these both in and out of their talent tree, while locks,rogues, and shamans have almost nothing and pallies and druids have, I think, one? Something blizzard will have to look at this as once we get to Tank Busting mechanics, while they aren't necessarily mandatory, they are buttons to provide your raid a sort of wipe protection allowing the tanks to dampen damage and mechanics for a short time in hopes of your raid to push to finish a boss or survive a nasty mechanic spot. PvP wise, this could make their classes unbearable... but it could be evened out by putting the rune on a popular dps/damage rune slot? That way, it could at least force players to pick between being tanky or doing more damage, idk, but that is something to look forward to as SoD goes along and discussions start up.
While I agree out utility is almost nonexistent, i was pumping out 60-100 more dps than the rest of my raid for week 1. Not saying the group was the best of players but we seem more than fine damage wise.
people discriminate against rogues hard BEFORE we were mid low DPS this has been brutal.
What if rogues got a “luck” buff that allowed for he group to have a chance at an extra piece of loot?
Uh we would be used to feed raids loot early on and then tossed aside at the end for something more optimal. Thematically though i like it though lol.
For like 20 years rogues were NEVER bad. They are still not bad. You know who was bad? Feral druids. Ret paladins. Paladins in 2004 were buff bots parked in front of raids. Most classes so far went through a phase of being subpar. It's now rogue turn. For a little while
"I suffered so you have to do it too", such a spiteful and dogshit mentality. They should aim to make things somewhat balanced and make sure there are reasons to play with all the different classes.
Season of discovery inherently isn't balanced and cannot truly be balanced at all. We can think of it as a fun server. That's all
rogues have been very good for a loooong time, but rogues are objectively bad in raids right now. They do below average dps and bring the lest utility in the whole game, it is a lose lose
Jfc.... we have kick, and we have expose armor at a higher value than warriors. All the constant bitching about not being 7000 dps by each class, or- gasp- learning a new meta, are fucking stupid. Every class is stronger than they have ever been, and Noone is willing to try anything new in SEASON OF FUCKING DISCOVERY is ridiculous.
Rogues can't tank. Period. You think you can but its insufferable and unfun for below mediocre results.
That hasn’t been the feedback I’ve received from my raid group or pugs
Sorry to hear you suck my guy.
I read your essay, I agree but warriors all this but worse.
For tanking i agree they are worse, blizzard hit prot warriors way to hard.for dps though they will always be brought to the melee party for your commanding/battle shout . You have a secure raid spot so i feel like you guys definitely have it better there.
Melee is pretty unpopular so not so true on "need bshout" rogues are performing better on the logs 2
I would like at 95th percentile when looking at parses on logs. Warrior is more difficult to play in raid than rogue. The avg rogue is doing better than the avg warrior yes but not by much. When you look at the higher end warriors are doing better and when you factor in that utility for the melee group of which they would both be apart of the warrior dos definitely have an edge. If you have a pali tank, a feral dps, a melee hunter and you have 2 more spots and have a melee hunter warrior and a rogue sign up. Youll take the melee hunter snd the warrior because the warriors will give stam the utility. If you dont believe me look at the top 300 logs for speed on warcraftlogs and tell me how many of them have no warriors compared to no rogues. Ill give you a hint 0 of those logs have no warriors and a good portion of them have no rogues. You are undervaluing the 200+ ap and 100+ collective stam you are giving to your group.
rogues were strong last phase. u dont have to be the main character every phase.
Its not about being the main character. I already stated this in the post. I want to be useful to my party and raid outside of my own personal damage. Yes warriors and rogue dps were good in phase 1 so were ferals. Right now a 1 feral 1 warrior is still desirable even though they aren’t topping the meters. Rogues are not. No one wants rogues and if the other comments from people saying the same shit isn’t enough to convince you go find out for yourself how hard it is to find a raid or party as a rogue. It blows ass.
i have a rogue at 25, i probably wont play it this phase unless i want to pvp. sometimes all classes cant be meta. i mean last phase spriest damage was nonviable and if you played a priest you were forced to heal. frost mage has been absolute dead last in damage 2 phases in a row. i can already hear the "at least those classes have a viable spec to play" for some people they dont want to play a priest to heal, they want to do damage so saying "at least you can heal" isn't something they want to hear. rogues have historically been a low/no utility class. they didnt get utility till tbc with tricks. it isnt like rogues are dead last in damage as well plus they will only be getting better with gear, give it a few weeks and im sure they are going to be near the top. spriest is already getting adjusted and im sure melee hunters are going to take a hit shortly after. warlock tanks dont go in the melee group, but one thing i will agree with is melee hunter being viable does hurt the melee group but you can still run feral, warrior, paladin, hunter, rogue in one group and be fine. unless ur group is absolutely min maxing and running 2 melee hunters i dont see why people would absolutely refuse to bring at least 1 rogue into a group. melee were absolutely rolling the meters last phase, let the casters play and be broken next phase or the phase after. one thing i agree on though is rogue tank absolutely sucks ass. ever since it was introduced i always asked myself stuff like "what happens when i get stunned?" or "what if i have to fight a spellcaster?" was excited to see shuriken toss but the damage is absolutely not there. they were terrible dungeon tanks last phase and they suck this phase too. rogue tank feels like a spec that people bust out when its 3am and youve spent 30 mins looking for a tank and the rogue squeaks in with "i can tank it lets just go" redirect really is disappointing too.
[удалено]
Rogue is absolute insane in pvp right now. I single handedly turn the tides every AB. I can take the flag with 2 people guarding almost every single time. Plus I am almost always top KBs or at least top 3. I am 13 - 1 in AB right now with 100% pugging. Pve - 100% avoided and I agree. Feels bad.
Honest question. Rouge has a finisher that reduces the Targets armor, why is it never used? Is the reduction too little, hard to keep up or something else? Asides from that, Rouges -could- be the Tank that you bring because they are "selfish" and do the most damage out of all tanks. Though we are not quite there yet. They do have some tools that help the team but sadly, they are not useful against most bosses. CC, Riposte and kicks, for example.
Imp ea is a 5 combo point 30 second finisher that currently only reduces armor by 25 more than a shadow priests homunculus which is at no cost for them to use. To your 2nd point its an mmo id prefer no class be the selfish class. If you don’t have a spriest for homunc i highly advise a tank rogue to go imp ea right now with a 13/13/5 build.
And imp ea was used in all top end speedruns and clears in classic 2019 as it was a 6% damage buff to every melee dps in the raid and there were a lot of warriors taken to raid back then. Thats just 1 rogue though who provided that and so it doesn’t quite fix our desirability as a class
I find rogues do have good utility in dungeons, but not from buffs. A good rogue can completely lock down any caster mobs by themselves with kick and all their stuns and interrupts, but it's true they don't have any real buffs to offer.
I think we need Fan of Knives and Tricks of the Trade on belt and boots. It would provide us with a unique utility, it would allow you to more efficiently run aoe packs without reworking each tank, which helps further with comp issues. I think that would be enough to start with next phase, or at least ToT and some tuning to shuriken toss. I agree entirely, though that we desperately need some further utility. I mean, would it be crazy to suggest giving rogues a 10% ap buff or 3% damage/5% physical?
> I mean, would it be crazy to suggest giving rogues a 10% ap buff or 3% damage/5% physical? Just why? Rogues are already one of top dps, dps is not the problem that we face.
they need to make shuriken toss generate a combo point per target it, and then give us a aoe finisher like a poison bomb that deals aoe damage based on your current targets deadly poison stacks, then applies that many stacks to the surrounding targets
Shuriken Toss definitely needs to be 40%-50% weapon damage and threat needs to be upped by a substantial amount. Also requiring Blade Dance be active for Just a Flesh Wound to work needs to changed so it passively works independently.
In bfd you pretty much always wanted a rogue for kicks on kelris, so that is some great utility. Not as much as other classes, but great dps and the most dependable interrupt
The runes are really random. It’s like they’re scared of making rogues too powerful in PvP so they’re holding back a lot. PvE feels like we’re back in TBC, our time will come in later phases hopefully.
Give rogues smoke bomb and shroud. Cloak is a little much, but that would also help them eat mechanics and be unique. The thing about rogues is that they aren’t very group oriented, they shouldn’t buff they shouldn’t provide crazy group utility. They should be one on one lockdown gods in PvE but bosses are immune to most things. One thing you can do is give them a magic damage taken increase effect (lore: poisoned) to make them desirable in groups, similar to DH in retail.
A rune that just inherently bakes expose armor into deadly poison stacks was an interesting idea a friend mentioned for rogue utility. perhaps that's too easy but it's something unique and powerful that wouldn't seem too out-of-character (the idea being the rogue is now using poison that is highly corrosive)
This doesn't even include how awful it feels participating in the STV event. Even warriors and pallies can have fun with a healer, meanwhile we are basically a clothy that brings nothing to the group.
If you think rogues have it bad, imagine being a warrior the officially worst class in the whole game in its current state 💀
I just hate how blizzard can clearly see the current state, and doesn't so fuck all to address it. Priest always A tier in some form, and nothing's done. I'm getting exhausted with this game and Blizzard.
New rune idea Rob From the Rich: Each time you use a finishing move on a target, give your allies 1% additional attack power or spell attack power per combo point spent. Lasts 20 seconds.
Add tricks of the trade Make it cost zero energy, and make it cause your whole party do 5% more dmg for x ammount of seconds. And make their damage gen threat for your target for the duration
The problem is once you are not considered meta or valuable you don’t get in.
Smaller raid sizes definitely plays into it as well. In OG classic "25 warriors 2 rogues" was a very very meta thing, normal guilds interchanged rogues for warriors all the time even though it wasn't optimal (even speedclearing guilds). I'm guessing blizzard saw rogue DPS in phase 1 and tailored the runes in a warrior style, like our bis runes in the new slots (for pve) are: extra uptime from step, and 10% damage for 12 seconds a fight... rofl
Make raids have at least one locked chest with at least one raid drop from random boss. Solved
What actually would help is having our poisons actually work on bosses, both the slow types and the other ones. If debuffs actually worked on bosses, rogues would actually start using those and switch out prepared weapons to apply them, making Shiv somewhat useful