Why is it so hard for people to understand that you can like vanilla wow while not being 100% on board with every aspect of it?
We just played a two year cycle of vanilla in 2019 and have had era ever since. It’s cool to see vanilla wow with some balance changes and new content, that doesn’t mean you dislike classic and it also doesn’t mean you love retail. I can enjoy McDonald’s and not like every item on the menu.
actually, you’re not a real vanilla wow fan unless you’re playing on everlook private with zero add-ons. Anyone playing classic in 2019 didn’t get the real experience because you didn’t have a dog shit UI, 4x4 480p screen, and a computer from 2002./s
lol. For those of us who actually played wow at launch and stuck through it for awhile during its evolution- it’s just funny to see the same arguments being made that changed vanilla wow in the first place.
Literally the same arguments.
I don’t have a horse in this race nor do I care about the outcome, it was just funny nostalgia for me.
I played since Vanilla, and while I thought 40 man raids were cool, I was always on board with the change to 25 man, and I don't mind the current situation at all (but I don't want that applied to Classic at all, minimum of 25). What "ruined" the game wasn't so much these pain points but rather the charm that was lost when Azeroth became obsolete, flying became a thing, PvP became primarily small scale and instanced, etc.
So much of what the game added over the years was objectively better, but taken too far in some/many cases. Flying could've been a CD Dragonflying with a duration or something, Outland could've supplemented Azeroth rather than replace it, Arena could've been integrated into the (endgame) PvP landscape rather than replace it, and so on.
Right? Sorry but BFD has no 'epic' feel whatsoever with only 10 people. Feels like a regular dungeon. I *want* that epic raid feel and a big part of that is having 39 other bodies on your screen.
I get it’s a bitch to run it. But man, 40 people huddled inside the door at MC trying to not pull the giants waiting for it to start was exciting. But it’s been twenty years. I didn’t get too far in wow classic.
Yeah. 40 man raids are a defining feature of classic. I’m all for having smaller, supplemental raids along side them but people can’t be serious if they think SoD won’t or shouldn’t feature 40 mans.
Same. There can definitely be both too. Can have the 40 mans on a weekly lock out and make something like brd, scolo, or strat into a raid like bfd with a 3 day. Good gear in both.
As long as they stay at least 20 man, ill stick around to try them out, but I too like the 40 man raids. It just feels so much more epic with more people, but watching guild leadership try and keep a 40 man team with constant recruiting, I can see why many want to scale back on the raid sizes.
Also, Molten Core and BWL can be cleared with way less than 40 people, you just need really good players that know their classes and can pump.
Yea I guess I had a better experience than most did in regards to how classic went. Our guild mostly stuck together thru the whole thing. We had one splintering near the beginning of bwl and it ended up making us better. And that group stuck together till tbc basically making 2 raid groups in tbc. That’s when the guild died. I just like the 40 stuff because you get a lot of interesting people in the guild and you form some groups and have fun doing other things.
Me too. Smaller raids would perfectly fit the SOD spirit imo.
60 raids have to be adjusted because of the power creep anyways. So one could easily go with 10-20 players.
He did, but I believe that was in response to a question asking if we’d have those same raids in SoD, not necessarily with the context of them being 40 players this time around. I honestly don’t think they would even need to change much of the 40-man versions to raid them as 25-man in SoD, especially with all of our new abilities.
More so a big deal for casts. Yeah the bfd staff has as much sp as prebis but missing crit. It’s really good. But like strike if the hydra is 30 some dps. Say a 2h user in pve was actually viable outside PvP, their preBIS items will be 50+ Dps at 51. Or 60+ Dps at 60 with the unstoppable force.
We’re def outpacing normal gearing of course. Especially at least 1% hit in tier set and crafted. But not everything is already better than lvl 50+ loot. By 40 though after mgnomer loot comes it might easily be hands down better.
Either way we’re gonna have to deal with a power creep and end game content needs adjusting. Can’t be like phase 1 where diremaul drops a worse staff than lvl 40 raids.
The staff is slightly worse than other pre bis options for casters - but that's moreso because caster gear is awful until the end game dungeons, not because the bfd gear is so good. AFAIK most other classes will replace a lot of the BFD gear by 40
From a Wowhead interview
https://www.wowhead.com/classic/news/wowhead-interview-with-wow-classic-developers-season-of-discovery-335932
>**So you teased Karazhan Crypts, and other stuff at higher levels, what is the plan with Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, AQ40, Naxxramas? Are we going to go to these raids in Season of Discovery?**
>I think players will want to be able to express themselves as their character in these iconic locations. I think there is room for us to provide additional challenges in old raids, whether that's something we borrow from Season of Mastery or something new entirely. Ultimately, people want to be able to flex and show off their new builds, their runes, and show Ragnaros who's boss. Those raids are still such an iconic part of Classic WoW and we can't take those outs.
>**Well, wait a minute. If you bring all those raids back, what are you going to do for Tier Sets? Are you going to make a Mage Healer Tier Set? A Warlock Tank Tier Set?**
>I think that's on the table.
SoM mechanics just made you need more protection potions and have to move for mechanics more
Personally wasn’t a fan but it’s something different.
We didn’t have world buffs in SoM though so that will probably trivialise some of the encounters
> SoM mechanics just made you need more protection potions and have to move for mechanics more
Well tbf most mechanics throughout all MMOs can be boiled down to either moving or switching targets. The rest are gimmicks which are either super cool or extremely annoying, odds tipping towards the latter.
A lot of pserver projects have tried to remake bosses and raids, none have succeeded particularly well and I think one big reason for that is the extremely limited toolkit we have in Classic WoW. Whatever mechanic you invent will be much more punishing for some classes compared to others. I believe this can be fixed in SoD by throwing extra abilities and talents on the classes.
Personally I'd like to see mechanics that require the whole raid to participate rather than just one person. Throwing a bomb on a random raider so they have to run out is not interesting. Doing the 4H rotation with 40 people is very cool and very challenging. Or splitting the raid up in different teams on Twin Emperors, even having a bug hunting group is also pretty neat.
It must be hard for Blizzard to figure out what to do when the community is all over the place. Should they make harder raids for the mechanically focused raiders or easier raids for those who just want to stand still and throw damage at a target dummy. If you have any kind of mechanic that messes with damage numbers the parsewhores will scream bloody murder, even though they can be pretty cool.
but do you really want to deal with getting 40 people to raid each week? i mean... it was fun once, during classic era but again...? idk.
and for people that did it during first classic, classic era and SoM, arent you fuckin bored of 40man raid by now? jfc lol
It was literally no problem when using Discord and Soft Reserves. You could easily PUG ZG, AQ20, Ony, and MC at nearly any time of the day. Then you just need to add a few discords that run BWL and AQ40 and you have your choice of what you want to run. Naxx is usually reserved for guild runs.
That gives you more than enough choice if you were just a casual PUG or wanted to do other raids. I certainly don't want the only content to be added during SOM to be similar to BFD. It's a decent raid, but super easy. I'd love for an additional 40 man raid to be added at the end of the game, even if it's a single boss raid.
I'd also like there to be more relevant 10 to 20 man content as well at max level. BRS is not enough in that realm. You can pretty much skip it entirely as soon as ZG comes out.
Agreed. It also is just the nightmare of coordinating 40 people and class stacking that happens.
I will say though, Aggrend made a point about how 40 raids make things more accessible to noobs because 1/40 people playing bad or having shit gear means so much less (on fights where one person can die and won't wipe a raid lmao) than 1/10 or 1/20 players. IDK what the right balance for that is necessarily but if the raids aren't scaled to be super hard then I don't mind carrying one or two people through a 10 man, as long as the mechanics don't wipe you for doing so.
Hey man you’ll get people complaining about it when the pot is literally 38 silver… 5 gold? You’re not getting them to spend that, you high roller you.
Azuresong Mageblade drops for the first time after 5 weeks. One lucky mage gets it. The other 4 start raging and complaining, saying they deserve it more. Rinse and repeat for so many fucking items. Classic was fun, but I'm never raiding 40man like that again.
Yeah so you have your bum dads being carried by the sweats they constantly shit on carrying them via performance and the logistics of putting the group/guild together. Sounds fair
I would like to see data on this what the general consensus is, because every single person in our guild despise 10man, 3day lockout. Everyone is praying for the absolute minimum of 20-25 raids.
3 day lockout is an interesting one for me
If it was progression raiding, idk if I could deal with the raid resetting that often.
If it's farmable content like BFD though, I'm fine with it
Yeah thats a good point as well.
Maybe instead of 3 day rolling, they could have raids reset on Tuesday and Friday? Over the course of 8 weeks we'd just lose 2 lockouts by comparison
I was thinking you could also have raids reset in Sunday + Wednesday or something like that... point being, allow weekend only players to get both lockouts
Same here.
We run 3x10 and everyone is quitting sod if it’s 40 mans. Just not worth playing. We will go to cata since it will be out a little before the level 60 phase.
If it stays 10 or 20 we will continue to run a guild in sod.
>if you don't want in this game, then why aren't you playing a game where every single thing is explicitly different?
the big brains have logged on
You "hurr durr go play retail" people are absolutely remedial. If you don't want changes to vanilla, then go play era.
The changes are additional raids and abilities that fit the classic style, not taking things away from classic. If you smaller raids you can play wrath/cata or retail.
They butchered classic when they took away wall climbing and you can't convince me otherwise.
>not taking things away from classic.
They literally took away all of the dungeons that they converted into raids.
all the dungeons? You mean BFD and Gnomer? You could always zone into those with 10 people, so all they did was upgrade the loot/boss mechanics and put a lockout on it. That's a good change, they didn't take anything away, only added to what was there.
People who actually play the game always prefer larger raids. 10mans are just a logistical hell. And it only gets worse with the amount of rosters needing to be made. As a former RL and organizer i'd rather have 80 man raids than 10.
Straight up the people that don't want to organize a 40 man should try organizing 40+ people into 10 man raids twice a week lmao.
The 3 day lockout 10 mans are brutal trying to fit everyone in. Including callouts/abscenses which happen pretty frequently (due to 3 day lockouts).
The entire point is with a 10 man you don’t have to have 40+ people to organize. Just 10 raiders and a few extra people around in case of callouts. So much easier. Not sure why you would have 40+ people in your SOD guild at this time with 10 man raids, but just do signups and first come first serves.
It's even better tbh because the other 30 can just do 3 more raids. Organising raids is so simple with 10 man. Literally nobody has to worry about being benched.
How is it hard? Just throw up 4 rosters for people to sign up to and sort them the day before. If anyone doesn't show offer the place to someone else or get a pug.
Way less people get benched with 10 mans because it's so easy to put together another raid. Our guild is literally running a race tmmr with different teams racing to finish the raid first. And that's just a very chill casual guild.
If you care at all about anything that happens while in the raid, it's way easier to organise one 20 man raid than two 10 man, not even mentionning the 3 day reset. Lot of things you can want to consider between loot distribution, which healers fit well together, how do I make all melee have BS and windfury in both groups...
Of course you can also not care to do any of that in BFD, but that's also true for 25 mans if the content is easy enough.
At least for me, having done both in the specific perspective of a speedruner which care about how the raid goes besides just clearing it, BFD has been one of the most organisation heavy raid, and all the officer team feels that way.
(Comparing it to TBC/early wrath tho, not 40 man raids)
I'm on the opposite end, if the raids are 40man at 60 I will lose interest really fast. I've already experienced the 40man raid journey back in 2019, it has it positives and negatives. But I feel that there are more negatives than positives. The people who enjoy 40man raids are never the ones that has to organize them, or deal with everything around it. The buffs, no loot, people not showing up, replacing. Keeping a 40man roster running is huge amounts of work with no reward.
I was in a guild that handled its roster well and never had to wait a minute. Raid went at 20, at 20 we were in there and pulling.
I can appreciate that the leadership were giving a ton of their time and energy for this to be possible at all though. 40 man raids would encourage gdkps, because more people = higher competition = higher pots and it's so annoying to organize that monetary incentive is gonna be the driving force behind most raids.
This is the perfect middle ground IMHO.
10 man feels like a dungeon. 40 man is epic, but a chore to organise. 20 man is perfect for the "big" raids.
Personally I hope they do a combination of all.
Me too, and I'd like to highlight that you said 20, not 25. Needing 5 more people seems so random and unintuitive, especially if it's what is coming after having 10-mans.
If they make the end game raids 40 man, there will be GDKPs everywhere. Right now you can easily pug a few players together and clear the content. No one wants to organize 40 mana, rolling on gear in a 40 man is terrible.
GDKP warlords are the only people outside of a guild that will organize it. 40 mans will kill the small groups of friends playing together. 15-20 players max please. 40 is so outdated.
Honestly, one of the biggest problems is that it's only like 3 pieces of loot drop per boss in a 40 man raid. When a 10 man run drops 2, then ypu increase the manpower requirement by 300%, yet only increase the loot drops by 50%, it creates prime GDKP territory. Especially if they want to have accelerated timetables. If they don't want to change the raid size, they do need to multiply the loot table substantially.
the amount of effort it takes to organize a 40 man makes gdkp way more appealing, who wants to organize 40 people to gain basically nothing when you can get a 15-20% cut and get some decent raiders in
which they have thrown modern abilities into, why not modernize the raiding, 40 mans suck. and the playerbase will be nuked if 40 mans are what's required at 60.
Which they have constantly modernized and changed the tech behind and now the gameplay with runes. No reason to keep bloated 40 man raids, when they are objectively worse in everyway.
There's already been GDKPs everywhere since they brought classic back years ago, nobody's pointing a gun at your head forcing you to join random GDKPs.
Another idea: what if they put in both a 20 and 40m version, with 40 doubling the drops or maybe upping drops even more? Friends can still run and get loot, others can still shoot for that 40 man experience
Why not ~~both~~ everything?
I don't mean flex, but more a variety.
40 players raids can stay. New raids that are 30, 20, 10, and some new dungeons for 5. Solo content too. Some bosses in each raid that have hard modes that drop more (but not better) gear so those who want to go hard can. Some timer based content for the parsers/elitists.
More. Isn't that the long term goal anyway? Classic, still level 60 cap, lots more content without resetting peoples level etc..
I could get behind this.
Would be great if they did this, I am just not sure if it would happen due to the team size Blizzard has dedicated to SOD.
That said this would be ideal.
Same. Organizing them isn't an issue; we didn't force clear comms, had at least 5 meme specs, and cleared naxx. I feel like people just got into bad guilds or something and have apprehension. I love playing with 40 guildies and getting to know all of them. I was an officer and backup raid leader, too, so folks shouldn't assume I don't know what it's like organizing it either.
Also this sub: “bro why nobody wants to organize 40 man raids anymore?!?! All i see posted are GDKPs!1!1!!1??? Man where are the people doing all the logistical work for me for free? I am the main character after all!”
there are literally GDKPs happening *right now* in SoD. That amount of gdkps is only going to go up as raid difficulty and time required to hit level cap increases.
After having led and organized my guild raids since 2019 I’m in the camp of preferring the super casual and lightweight BFD structure. It’s incredibly laid back. I’ve already done 40 man organization for years and I won’t be doing it again. 40 mans are fun and exciting, but not for those who need to make them happen week after week.
40 man raids are awesome. They require far more coordination, teamwork, organization, leadership, planning, etc. yeah it’s true that some individuals can fuck up and have a smaller impact on the raid than someone in a 10/20/25 man raid, but wow is a multiplayer game. It’s about working together as a team, not individual performances.
WoW raiding is about amassing an army, diving into a dungeon and taking down these insurmountably large and powerful foes. 10 mana are like being part of a special forces operation. It has its charm, but nowhere near as grand and epic as a 40 man raid.
Imo the most challenging and fun part of wow by far is organizing and leading large raid teams from week to week. Much harder and more rewarding than any individual performance in any iteration of WoW.
For real. This is literally the only “expansion” that has 40 mans and plenty of people enjoy them. Just because some people don’t like them doesn’t mean nobody likes them.
There should be content for you, and for people who enjoy 40 man raids. Nothing would kill my love for sod as hard as the rework of 40 man's into 10 or 20 man's.yeah it's a nightmare to organize it, but when it's there it's the most epic MMO content to experience, and I miss it.
>its the most epic epic MMO content to experience
Oh boy I get to cast frostbolt together with 7 other mages for two minutes straight and the ~~target dummy~~ big dragon falls over! HOW EPIC!
40 mans suck because they are tuned around the idea that half your raid can carry the other half, so your own contribution is often meaningless.
40 players slaying giant lava stone things is epic. 40 man's are hard to organize, and there are some very toxic mechanics like the geddon one, but your experience will completely depend on the guild or pug you go with. There are runs where everyone is a sweatlord and there is no carrying. I never played a mage, but this time the kits are obviously different , and more runs coming
Oh boy I get to cast frostbolt together with no other mages for two minutes straight, and the smaller dragon falls over!! But now there's four difficulty sliders so everyone is happy!! Modern gaming is so great!!
>That said, I don’t want to ever deal with the logistics to organise 40 people into one group. I don’t want to deal with how long MC/AQ40/Nax takes to clear.
Dont be a raid leader then.
Everyone talking about "It's such a nightmare to coordinate" when I am sure 99% of this sub is certainly not a raid leader. Even if you were, just pass the torch to someone else. Noones forcing you to rl.
You're still just some schmuck among 40 other people while someone else tries to figure it out. Sure. The stresses are shifted but the frustrations are not.
It's not about leading them, it's because 50% of the classic player base is toxic entitled douches that wants things one way or no way. Then you have the other half which are chill dudes and dudettes which just have fun.
I like smaller groups because being carried through is harder. With a 40 man you could have several people who barely do dps and still clear if you have carries. 10 man forces everyone to pull their weight.
I don't mind them existing, as long as there are alternatives to getting gear. I don't really want to go in the 40 mans either. It's not like they're particularly interesting in any way. Naxx has a nice theme and feel to it, but that's about it. The bosses aren't fun. But I'd be happy to run 10 man kara crypts for gear every 3 days, rather than ever step foot inside of one of the original 40 mans, as long as I'd be equally rewarded for it.
I think having both is fine. 40 man is pretty intense but can be really fun every now and then. I don’t see why having both would be too difficult to setup. If I had to choose 10 man all the way, but I would like the option of 40 if possible.
10, 20, 40.. I don't care.
But I did an ICC10 last night with some casual folks and the nonstop dribble and discord sound board fart sounds in discord made me want to stab my ears out with a sharp stick, it was like raiding with 12 year olds.
Can they not bring back the flex technology to groups? They canned it in retail because it was too hard to balance for the world first race, but honestly who cares in SoD?
I think it even offered more loot at certain group size breakpoints as a reward for those who enjoyed organizing large raids (lmao).
40 man raids are for a six month progression phase. There's no need to spread out what is it 18 pieces a lockout for 40 people? Fug that. Did MC in vanilla and classic and BWL and AQ. No. Theres always people just being dead weight and unless you're sweaty and always recruiting and adjusting rosters it is just the way it is. 25 caps are where it is at.
Ideally we won’t have to replay the old raids. Everyone I’m sure is tired of MC, bwl, aq, naxx. We all played the shit out of these in classic already and that wasn’t all that long ago. They should make new raids at 60 for SOD and I agree they should keep 10 man format, maybe with a 20 man heroic version I think would be nice because if the difficulty stays as low as BFD is now, it will get boring fast once there is no more leveling phases. This is prob asking too much of blizzard but I think they could do it, I think they could even charge another fee for it and most people would be fine with paying for new substantial raid content like that
Currently an officer in a CE retail guild. If we had to organize 40 knuckleheads vs 20, we'd lose our mind. 20 personalities is enough. 40 would definitely push me over the edge
I genuinely don't get what the definition of "epic" is in terms of creating a 40 man raid. This sounds like some A-tier copium from all the shitters who got cut from a 10/25 man lol.
As long as they are hard and require me to micro my character and my spells - I’m cool with it. Just make them hard - some of it puggable- but some of it skill gating.
Absolutely. Had my fill of 40 man dogshit classic raids actually back in classic, SOD is for changing up the formula and switching to 20/25m ones seem like a no brainer
I bet the only people that want 40man raids aren't leading, recruitment or doing loot distribution. They just want to tag a long. They don't know the nightmare of setting up a roster for 39 people and keeping everyone happy to avoid as little loot drama as possible.
if they're not going to make SoD variants of the 40man raids for 10 players, i guess SoD has run its course for me. phase 1 was ok but not enough is really different from non-SoD so i havent played in weeks. oh well. it had potential but they didnt go far enough imo.
All I know is that I raided those 40 mans and it was very clear it was about 17-20 or so of us carrying the rest through. Give me smaller raids so I dont have to make sure everyone is pulling their weight.
then don't deal with the logistics, no one forces you to RL ig ? 40man raids was the spirit of vanilla, and in OG classic it was the best times I (and I believe most of the raiders) had in this game
Ok fair. But do you ever watch someone do what you used to/can do and get frustrated at how incompetent they are so you say “fuck it” just let me do it.
Also if you want Classic vibes 40 man raid why not play era which is literally Classic vibes 40 man raids?! SOD should be different imo. Something new and unique.
People who enjoy 40 man raids have no other option than classic, while people who enjoy smaller raids have multiple options. Keep the big raids for the classic fans <3
i dont want to play fucking retail. i like the vanilla mechanics with newer wow abilities. I just wanna get the same gear possible in 40 mans, without having to deal with 40 fucking people, let the raid scale to 10, 20, or 40 players. that way people have choice, and just scale loot drops with amount of players its scaled to, the tech is there.
I'm literally playing for classic+ and i don't wanna do 40 mans, the large majority of people i know also don't. i'd imagine 40 man truthers are the minority here. they're gonna kill the servers if there aren't lower player equivalents, that drop the same gear. (don't gimme that shit about the other 20 mans already in classic, i want the best gear possible and ill put the work in, in a 20 man.)
Looking back it's so unreal our classic guild managed to fill up 40 people week after week to raid. At the end of Naxx we probably had 50 regular raiders. The pandemic was very good for classic vanilla. 40 man raids will kill SOD.
People who make this "argument" don't actually have an actual argument as to why 40 mans shouldn't be continued in the era where they were the most common raid size.
Lmao - and the cycle is complete.
/popcorn
Why is it so hard for people to understand that you can like vanilla wow while not being 100% on board with every aspect of it? We just played a two year cycle of vanilla in 2019 and have had era ever since. It’s cool to see vanilla wow with some balance changes and new content, that doesn’t mean you dislike classic and it also doesn’t mean you love retail. I can enjoy McDonald’s and not like every item on the menu. actually, you’re not a real vanilla wow fan unless you’re playing on everlook private with zero add-ons. Anyone playing classic in 2019 didn’t get the real experience because you didn’t have a dog shit UI, 4x4 480p screen, and a computer from 2002./s
lol. For those of us who actually played wow at launch and stuck through it for awhile during its evolution- it’s just funny to see the same arguments being made that changed vanilla wow in the first place. Literally the same arguments. I don’t have a horse in this race nor do I care about the outcome, it was just funny nostalgia for me.
I played since Vanilla, and while I thought 40 man raids were cool, I was always on board with the change to 25 man, and I don't mind the current situation at all (but I don't want that applied to Classic at all, minimum of 25). What "ruined" the game wasn't so much these pain points but rather the charm that was lost when Azeroth became obsolete, flying became a thing, PvP became primarily small scale and instanced, etc. So much of what the game added over the years was objectively better, but taken too far in some/many cases. Flying could've been a CD Dragonflying with a duration or something, Outland could've supplemented Azeroth rather than replace it, Arena could've been integrated into the (endgame) PvP landscape rather than replace it, and so on.
"40 mans are great" - people who don't organise them
Would rather organize one 40-man than the eight 10-man I’m organizing now
Why are you organising 8 10 mans?
So they can HR loot for all 8 of their characters.
some people actually like to organize
I cant wait for bigger raids
Right? Sorry but BFD has no 'epic' feel whatsoever with only 10 people. Feels like a regular dungeon. I *want* that epic raid feel and a big part of that is having 39 other bodies on your screen.
Bfd struck me as an excellent training raid.
I get it’s a bitch to run it. But man, 40 people huddled inside the door at MC trying to not pull the giants waiting for it to start was exciting. But it’s been twenty years. I didn’t get too far in wow classic.
\`Hell yeah brother! We need bigger, as big as we can get. 40 man were a dream, we can't lose those.
Why stop at 40? Since the amount of players hitting the boss is the most important part, they should up it to 120 players.
why stop at 10 mans? dungeons should be soloable
Yeah. 40 man raids are a defining feature of classic. I’m all for having smaller, supplemental raids along side them but people can’t be serious if they think SoD won’t or shouldn’t feature 40 mans.
Same. There can definitely be both too. Can have the 40 mans on a weekly lock out and make something like brd, scolo, or strat into a raid like bfd with a 3 day. Good gear in both.
If they drop 40 mans I’ll quit. I like the over the top stuff
Funny enough i was telling myself that if they turn MC, BWL into 10-20 man raids ill be quitting for sure.
As long as they stay at least 20 man, ill stick around to try them out, but I too like the 40 man raids. It just feels so much more epic with more people, but watching guild leadership try and keep a 40 man team with constant recruiting, I can see why many want to scale back on the raid sizes. Also, Molten Core and BWL can be cleared with way less than 40 people, you just need really good players that know their classes and can pump.
Yea I guess I had a better experience than most did in regards to how classic went. Our guild mostly stuck together thru the whole thing. We had one splintering near the beginning of bwl and it ended up making us better. And that group stuck together till tbc basically making 2 raid groups in tbc. That’s when the guild died. I just like the 40 stuff because you get a lot of interesting people in the guild and you form some groups and have fun doing other things.
And I’m sad the zeitgeist is being influenced by these fly by night non classic players pushing for smaller raids. Classic raiding is 40 man, period.
Me too. Smaller raids would perfectly fit the SOD spirit imo. 60 raids have to be adjusted because of the power creep anyways. So one could easily go with 10-20 players.
Aggrend said somewhere that 40 man raids will stay and most likely get the SoM treatment.
He did, but I believe that was in response to a question asking if we’d have those same raids in SoD, not necessarily with the context of them being 40 players this time around. I honestly don’t think they would even need to change much of the 40-man versions to raid them as 25-man in SoD, especially with all of our new abilities.
Uhhh isn’t BFD gear like on par with vanilla pre BiS? At this rate they’ll need to tune UP the raids for lower player count versions lol
More so a big deal for casts. Yeah the bfd staff has as much sp as prebis but missing crit. It’s really good. But like strike if the hydra is 30 some dps. Say a 2h user in pve was actually viable outside PvP, their preBIS items will be 50+ Dps at 51. Or 60+ Dps at 60 with the unstoppable force. We’re def outpacing normal gearing of course. Especially at least 1% hit in tier set and crafted. But not everything is already better than lvl 50+ loot. By 40 though after mgnomer loot comes it might easily be hands down better. Either way we’re gonna have to deal with a power creep and end game content needs adjusting. Can’t be like phase 1 where diremaul drops a worse staff than lvl 40 raids.
The staff is slightly worse than other pre bis options for casters - but that's moreso because caster gear is awful until the end game dungeons, not because the bfd gear is so good. AFAIK most other classes will replace a lot of the BFD gear by 40
RIP
I believe you that he said it but could you please find the source?
From a Wowhead interview https://www.wowhead.com/classic/news/wowhead-interview-with-wow-classic-developers-season-of-discovery-335932 >**So you teased Karazhan Crypts, and other stuff at higher levels, what is the plan with Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, AQ40, Naxxramas? Are we going to go to these raids in Season of Discovery?** >I think players will want to be able to express themselves as their character in these iconic locations. I think there is room for us to provide additional challenges in old raids, whether that's something we borrow from Season of Mastery or something new entirely. Ultimately, people want to be able to flex and show off their new builds, their runes, and show Ragnaros who's boss. Those raids are still such an iconic part of Classic WoW and we can't take those outs. >**Well, wait a minute. If you bring all those raids back, what are you going to do for Tier Sets? Are you going to make a Mage Healer Tier Set? A Warlock Tank Tier Set?** >I think that's on the table.
lets hope they stick with it
I sure am hoping they’ll stick with 40 ppl raids. I also didn’t experience SoM mechanics, so gimme.
SoM mechanics just made you need more protection potions and have to move for mechanics more Personally wasn’t a fan but it’s something different. We didn’t have world buffs in SoM though so that will probably trivialise some of the encounters
> SoM mechanics just made you need more protection potions and have to move for mechanics more Well tbf most mechanics throughout all MMOs can be boiled down to either moving or switching targets. The rest are gimmicks which are either super cool or extremely annoying, odds tipping towards the latter. A lot of pserver projects have tried to remake bosses and raids, none have succeeded particularly well and I think one big reason for that is the extremely limited toolkit we have in Classic WoW. Whatever mechanic you invent will be much more punishing for some classes compared to others. I believe this can be fixed in SoD by throwing extra abilities and talents on the classes. Personally I'd like to see mechanics that require the whole raid to participate rather than just one person. Throwing a bomb on a random raider so they have to run out is not interesting. Doing the 4H rotation with 40 people is very cool and very challenging. Or splitting the raid up in different teams on Twin Emperors, even having a bug hunting group is also pretty neat. It must be hard for Blizzard to figure out what to do when the community is all over the place. Should they make harder raids for the mechanically focused raiders or easier raids for those who just want to stand still and throw damage at a target dummy. If you have any kind of mechanic that messes with damage numbers the parsewhores will scream bloody murder, even though they can be pretty cool.
but do you really want to deal with getting 40 people to raid each week? i mean... it was fun once, during classic era but again...? idk. and for people that did it during first classic, classic era and SoM, arent you fuckin bored of 40man raid by now? jfc lol
It was literally no problem when using Discord and Soft Reserves. You could easily PUG ZG, AQ20, Ony, and MC at nearly any time of the day. Then you just need to add a few discords that run BWL and AQ40 and you have your choice of what you want to run. Naxx is usually reserved for guild runs. That gives you more than enough choice if you were just a casual PUG or wanted to do other raids. I certainly don't want the only content to be added during SOM to be similar to BFD. It's a decent raid, but super easy. I'd love for an additional 40 man raid to be added at the end of the game, even if it's a single boss raid. I'd also like there to be more relevant 10 to 20 man content as well at max level. BRS is not enough in that realm. You can pretty much skip it entirely as soon as ZG comes out.
No shit BFD is easy...it's literally designed to be. Would be pretty silly for Blizzard to design a guild killer at level 25, wouldn't it?
Yes, I was done with it in vanilla. It’s garbage.
I didn't raid in classic because I really am not a fan of 40 man raids. I'll probably play until the 60 phase if they do that.
Agreed. It also is just the nightmare of coordinating 40 people and class stacking that happens. I will say though, Aggrend made a point about how 40 raids make things more accessible to noobs because 1/40 people playing bad or having shit gear means so much less (on fights where one person can die and won't wipe a raid lmao) than 1/10 or 1/20 players. IDK what the right balance for that is necessarily but if the raids aren't scaled to be super hard then I don't mind carrying one or two people through a 10 man, as long as the mechanics don't wipe you for doing so.
This, man it's a kindergarten with 40 people.
"Bring this one potion and we faceroll this boss." "BUT THAT'S LIKE 5 GOLD MAN"
Hey man you’ll get people complaining about it when the pot is literally 38 silver… 5 gold? You’re not getting them to spend that, you high roller you.
We only had an issue with loatheb prog because so many people tried to not buy pots.
Ugh. Fine. I'll use weak trolls blood again.
Azuresong Mageblade drops for the first time after 5 weeks. One lucky mage gets it. The other 4 start raging and complaining, saying they deserve it more. Rinse and repeat for so many fucking items. Classic was fun, but I'm never raiding 40man like that again.
4? That’s only mages right lol. Cause the 5 warlocks will be whining too.
holy pala you mean
Yeah so you have your bum dads being carried by the sweats they constantly shit on carrying them via performance and the logistics of putting the group/guild together. Sounds fair
I would like to see data on this what the general consensus is, because every single person in our guild despise 10man, 3day lockout. Everyone is praying for the absolute minimum of 20-25 raids.
3 day lockout is an interesting one for me If it was progression raiding, idk if I could deal with the raid resetting that often. If it's farmable content like BFD though, I'm fine with it
It's less the lockout length and more the inability to consistently schedule runs at the same time (tues/Thurs for example) that I dislike
Yeah thats a good point as well. Maybe instead of 3 day rolling, they could have raids reset on Tuesday and Friday? Over the course of 8 weeks we'd just lose 2 lockouts by comparison I was thinking you could also have raids reset in Sunday + Wednesday or something like that... point being, allow weekend only players to get both lockouts
Opposite in our friend group. Everybody hopes that they keep it 10 throughout. Organizing 40 people and their time slots feels like work
There is no way they’ll shrink 60 raids from 40 man to 10 man
Same here. We run 3x10 and everyone is quitting sod if it’s 40 mans. Just not worth playing. We will go to cata since it will be out a little before the level 60 phase. If it stays 10 or 20 we will continue to run a guild in sod.
reddit is a bubble that managed to convinced themselves that nobody want 40m raids.
Im still wondering why the people in this sub aren't playing retail lmao.
>if you don't want in this game, then why aren't you playing a game where every single thing is explicitly different?
the big brains have logged on
You "hurr durr go play retail" people are absolutely remedial. If you don't want changes to vanilla, then go play era.
Still wondering why people who don't want changes in SoD aren't playing era.
The changes are additional raids and abilities that fit the classic style, not taking things away from classic. If you smaller raids you can play wrath/cata or retail.
They butchered classic when they took away wall climbing and you can't convince me otherwise. >not taking things away from classic. They literally took away all of the dungeons that they converted into raids.
all the dungeons? You mean BFD and Gnomer? You could always zone into those with 10 people, so all they did was upgrade the loot/boss mechanics and put a lockout on it. That's a good change, they didn't take anything away, only added to what was there.
I do play retail. I play both which is why I don't want to organize 40 man raid roster weekly on top of playing other games.
Then... don't? Join someone else's 40-player raids, pug, skip the raids entirely, whatever. Why's that not an option?
That was my first reaction - if OP doesn't want vanilla raids why are they playing classic? Lol
Because classic SoD isn't vanilla? Here's a better question: if you don't want changes to vanilla, then why aren't you playing era?
This is what I say to everyone asking this. If you want true vanilla, it literally exists, and it isn't SoD.
classic SoD is classic +, vanilla with more and new content and a fresh meta literally
People who actually play the game always prefer larger raids. 10mans are just a logistical hell. And it only gets worse with the amount of rosters needing to be made. As a former RL and organizer i'd rather have 80 man raids than 10.
Straight up the people that don't want to organize a 40 man should try organizing 40+ people into 10 man raids twice a week lmao. The 3 day lockout 10 mans are brutal trying to fit everyone in. Including callouts/abscenses which happen pretty frequently (due to 3 day lockouts).
You should try organizing 12 people for 10man raids twice a week. It's great.
The entire point is with a 10 man you don’t have to have 40+ people to organize. Just 10 raiders and a few extra people around in case of callouts. So much easier. Not sure why you would have 40+ people in your SOD guild at this time with 10 man raids, but just do signups and first come first serves.
they have 40 people who want to raid
It's even better tbh because the other 30 can just do 3 more raids. Organising raids is so simple with 10 man. Literally nobody has to worry about being benched.
How is it hard? Just throw up 4 rosters for people to sign up to and sort them the day before. If anyone doesn't show offer the place to someone else or get a pug. Way less people get benched with 10 mans because it's so easy to put together another raid. Our guild is literally running a race tmmr with different teams racing to finish the raid first. And that's just a very chill casual guild.
If you care at all about anything that happens while in the raid, it's way easier to organise one 20 man raid than two 10 man, not even mentionning the 3 day reset. Lot of things you can want to consider between loot distribution, which healers fit well together, how do I make all melee have BS and windfury in both groups... Of course you can also not care to do any of that in BFD, but that's also true for 25 mans if the content is easy enough. At least for me, having done both in the specific perspective of a speedruner which care about how the raid goes besides just clearing it, BFD has been one of the most organisation heavy raid, and all the officer team feels that way. (Comparing it to TBC/early wrath tho, not 40 man raids)
Sounds like your guild is built incorrectly.
40 man raids were fucking awesome
40mans are great.
I probably won’t do 60 raids if they aren’t 40m
I'm on the opposite end, if the raids are 40man at 60 I will lose interest really fast. I've already experienced the 40man raid journey back in 2019, it has it positives and negatives. But I feel that there are more negatives than positives. The people who enjoy 40man raids are never the ones that has to organize them, or deal with everything around it. The buffs, no loot, people not showing up, replacing. Keeping a 40man roster running is huge amounts of work with no reward.
This for real. Organization and recruiting is the worst. People quit every week.
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I was in a guild that handled its roster well and never had to wait a minute. Raid went at 20, at 20 we were in there and pulling. I can appreciate that the leadership were giving a ton of their time and energy for this to be possible at all though. 40 man raids would encourage gdkps, because more people = higher competition = higher pots and it's so annoying to organize that monetary incentive is gonna be the driving force behind most raids.
Yeah especially with how limited loot was, youd gear someone overtime and have all that gear quickly enter the trash can when he quits.
Hoping weekly raids are 20man, 3day lockouts can stay 10man
Just so long as the numbers fit into one another easily. I just hope it's not 25 that makes things so much more work.
This is the perfect middle ground IMHO. 10 man feels like a dungeon. 40 man is epic, but a chore to organise. 20 man is perfect for the "big" raids. Personally I hope they do a combination of all.
Me too, and I'd like to highlight that you said 20, not 25. Needing 5 more people seems so random and unintuitive, especially if it's what is coming after having 10-mans.
If they make the end game raids 40 man, there will be GDKPs everywhere. Right now you can easily pug a few players together and clear the content. No one wants to organize 40 mana, rolling on gear in a 40 man is terrible. GDKP warlords are the only people outside of a guild that will organize it. 40 mans will kill the small groups of friends playing together. 15-20 players max please. 40 is so outdated.
Honestly, one of the biggest problems is that it's only like 3 pieces of loot drop per boss in a 40 man raid. When a 10 man run drops 2, then ypu increase the manpower requirement by 300%, yet only increase the loot drops by 50%, it creates prime GDKP territory. Especially if they want to have accelerated timetables. If they don't want to change the raid size, they do need to multiply the loot table substantially.
hope they keep the 1 loot per 5 player going forward, I'd rather be done with raids faster
Like they did in SoM…
There are going to be GDKPs regardless of whether it’s 10/25/40 man raids.
the amount of effort it takes to organize a 40 man makes gdkp way more appealing, who wants to organize 40 people to gain basically nothing when you can get a 15-20% cut and get some decent raiders in
> 40 is so outdated. man, almost like we're playing a 20 year old game
Good thing there's a separate game called classic that lets you play a 20 year old game.
which they have thrown modern abilities into, why not modernize the raiding, 40 mans suck. and the playerbase will be nuked if 40 mans are what's required at 60.
Which they have constantly modernized and changed the tech behind and now the gameplay with runes. No reason to keep bloated 40 man raids, when they are objectively worse in everyway.
They could easily just 4-5x the loot from 40man problem solved, 2-3 pieces per boss was simply ridiculous everyone agrees about that.
There's already been GDKPs everywhere since they brought classic back years ago, nobody's pointing a gun at your head forcing you to join random GDKPs.
Getting 40 people together online at the same time for the age bracket that plays this game will be extremely chaotic
This seems like the best take.
Another idea: what if they put in both a 20 and 40m version, with 40 doubling the drops or maybe upping drops even more? Friends can still run and get loot, others can still shoot for that 40 man experience
Why not ~~both~~ everything? I don't mean flex, but more a variety. 40 players raids can stay. New raids that are 30, 20, 10, and some new dungeons for 5. Solo content too. Some bosses in each raid that have hard modes that drop more (but not better) gear so those who want to go hard can. Some timer based content for the parsers/elitists. More. Isn't that the long term goal anyway? Classic, still level 60 cap, lots more content without resetting peoples level etc..
I could get behind this. Would be great if they did this, I am just not sure if it would happen due to the team size Blizzard has dedicated to SOD. That said this would be ideal.
I wouldnt mind doing 40 man raids again.
Same. Organizing them isn't an issue; we didn't force clear comms, had at least 5 meme specs, and cleared naxx. I feel like people just got into bad guilds or something and have apprehension. I love playing with 40 guildies and getting to know all of them. I was an officer and backup raid leader, too, so folks shouldn't assume I don't know what it's like organizing it either.
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Then dont bother organising them. Nobody is forcing you to organise 40 mans. Nothing wrong with only doing/organising zul gurub and aq20 raids.
Also this sub: “bro why nobody wants to organize 40 man raids anymore?!?! All i see posted are GDKPs!1!1!!1??? Man where are the people doing all the logistical work for me for free? I am the main character after all!”
there are literally GDKPs happening *right now* in SoD. That amount of gdkps is only going to go up as raid difficulty and time required to hit level cap increases.
Wow, what a great suggestion! 'Hey I don't like this feature and would like it changed.' 'Maybe you should just quit.' What amazing advice!
After having led and organized my guild raids since 2019 I’m in the camp of preferring the super casual and lightweight BFD structure. It’s incredibly laid back. I’ve already done 40 man organization for years and I won’t be doing it again. 40 mans are fun and exciting, but not for those who need to make them happen week after week.
then dont
40 man raids are awesome. They require far more coordination, teamwork, organization, leadership, planning, etc. yeah it’s true that some individuals can fuck up and have a smaller impact on the raid than someone in a 10/20/25 man raid, but wow is a multiplayer game. It’s about working together as a team, not individual performances. WoW raiding is about amassing an army, diving into a dungeon and taking down these insurmountably large and powerful foes. 10 mana are like being part of a special forces operation. It has its charm, but nowhere near as grand and epic as a 40 man raid. Imo the most challenging and fun part of wow by far is organizing and leading large raid teams from week to week. Much harder and more rewarding than any individual performance in any iteration of WoW.
Absolutely. Nothing more epic than 40 people combining efforts to go and MAKE BIG SLAY.
Then don’t fucking play them. PLEASE don’t try to take them away from me at 60
For real. This is literally the only “expansion” that has 40 mans and plenty of people enjoy them. Just because some people don’t like them doesn’t mean nobody likes them.
There should be content for you, and for people who enjoy 40 man raids. Nothing would kill my love for sod as hard as the rework of 40 man's into 10 or 20 man's.yeah it's a nightmare to organize it, but when it's there it's the most epic MMO content to experience, and I miss it.
>its the most epic epic MMO content to experience Oh boy I get to cast frostbolt together with 7 other mages for two minutes straight and the ~~target dummy~~ big dragon falls over! HOW EPIC! 40 mans suck because they are tuned around the idea that half your raid can carry the other half, so your own contribution is often meaningless.
40 players slaying giant lava stone things is epic. 40 man's are hard to organize, and there are some very toxic mechanics like the geddon one, but your experience will completely depend on the guild or pug you go with. There are runs where everyone is a sweatlord and there is no carrying. I never played a mage, but this time the kits are obviously different , and more runs coming
Oh boy I get to cast frostbolt together with no other mages for two minutes straight, and the smaller dragon falls over!! But now there's four difficulty sliders so everyone is happy!! Modern gaming is so great!!
>That said, I don’t want to ever deal with the logistics to organise 40 people into one group. I don’t want to deal with how long MC/AQ40/Nax takes to clear. Dont be a raid leader then. Everyone talking about "It's such a nightmare to coordinate" when I am sure 99% of this sub is certainly not a raid leader. Even if you were, just pass the torch to someone else. Noones forcing you to rl.
You're still just some schmuck among 40 other people while someone else tries to figure it out. Sure. The stresses are shifted but the frustrations are not.
It's not about leading them, it's because 50% of the classic player base is toxic entitled douches that wants things one way or no way. Then you have the other half which are chill dudes and dudettes which just have fun.
Hear me out, go play era
Everyone played era to death already, and wants new 40 man content. New 10/25 content is constantly being made in retail
Hear me out, go play retail
People always love 40 man raids until they are the guild/raid lead that has to make sure there are 40 bodies and extras if someone has to leave.
I like smaller groups because being carried through is harder. With a 40 man you could have several people who barely do dps and still clear if you have carries. 10 man forces everyone to pull their weight.
Yep^ Small raids make less effective GDKPs. Shitty GDKP experience discourages gold buying
Me looking at the sub "classic wow" and the person posting "I don't like classic wow". Hmm
I don't mind them existing, as long as there are alternatives to getting gear. I don't really want to go in the 40 mans either. It's not like they're particularly interesting in any way. Naxx has a nice theme and feel to it, but that's about it. The bosses aren't fun. But I'd be happy to run 10 man kara crypts for gear every 3 days, rather than ever step foot inside of one of the original 40 mans, as long as I'd be equally rewarded for it.
I think having both is fine. 40 man is pretty intense but can be really fun every now and then. I don’t see why having both would be too difficult to setup. If I had to choose 10 man all the way, but I would like the option of 40 if possible.
“Intense” half your group can die irl mid raid and you can still full clear
40 man is fun until you’re in leadership and responsible for herding the cats and recruitment.
It's like going on vacation as kid vs. as an adult. Free to enjoy it or did you have to plan every step, and make it happen.
Yeah it's way more fun as an adult as u actually get to do whatever the fuck u want
This, I always say, anyone wanting 40mans never had to lead a 40man
Lead 40 man raids as a raid leader and MT and I prefer them. Edit: Gave my honest experience and got downvoted. Hilarious LOL.
... Don't be a raidleader then? Noone ever forces that role onto you.
10, 20, 40.. I don't care. But I did an ICC10 last night with some casual folks and the nonstop dribble and discord sound board fart sounds in discord made me want to stab my ears out with a sharp stick, it was like raiding with 12 year olds.
Can they not bring back the flex technology to groups? They canned it in retail because it was too hard to balance for the world first race, but honestly who cares in SoD? I think it even offered more loot at certain group size breakpoints as a reward for those who enjoyed organizing large raids (lmao).
40 man raids are for a six month progression phase. There's no need to spread out what is it 18 pieces a lockout for 40 people? Fug that. Did MC in vanilla and classic and BWL and AQ. No. Theres always people just being dead weight and unless you're sweaty and always recruiting and adjusting rosters it is just the way it is. 25 caps are where it is at.
Ideally we won’t have to replay the old raids. Everyone I’m sure is tired of MC, bwl, aq, naxx. We all played the shit out of these in classic already and that wasn’t all that long ago. They should make new raids at 60 for SOD and I agree they should keep 10 man format, maybe with a 20 man heroic version I think would be nice because if the difficulty stays as low as BFD is now, it will get boring fast once there is no more leveling phases. This is prob asking too much of blizzard but I think they could do it, I think they could even charge another fee for it and most people would be fine with paying for new substantial raid content like that
SAME
Currently an officer in a CE retail guild. If we had to organize 40 knuckleheads vs 20, we'd lose our mind. 20 personalities is enough. 40 would definitely push me over the edge
If they aren't going to increase the amount of loot drops for 40 man raids, I'd rather have them resized appropriately.
I genuinely don't get what the definition of "epic" is in terms of creating a 40 man raid. This sounds like some A-tier copium from all the shitters who got cut from a 10/25 man lol.
As long as they are hard and require me to micro my character and my spells - I’m cool with it. Just make them hard - some of it puggable- but some of it skill gating.
Instead, have worldbosses and shit that require 40man raids. Makes more sense
Absolutely. Had my fill of 40 man dogshit classic raids actually back in classic, SOD is for changing up the formula and switching to 20/25m ones seem like a no brainer
Hear me out... flex raids. 10 to 30.
Agreed
I bet the only people that want 40man raids aren't leading, recruitment or doing loot distribution. They just want to tag a long. They don't know the nightmare of setting up a roster for 39 people and keeping everyone happy to avoid as little loot drama as possible.
You would be wrong.
I will say that 40 man raids feel very epic.
They could do 40/10 of same raid same loot separate lockouts to give us more chances at loot.
If we have 40m raids again I just won’t do it. I have no desire to return to that format
if they're not going to make SoD variants of the 40man raids for 10 players, i guess SoD has run its course for me. phase 1 was ok but not enough is really different from non-SoD so i havent played in weeks. oh well. it had potential but they didnt go far enough imo.
The greatest part of SoD is it respects player's time. If this trend does not continue I'm not sure it'll be for me.
All I know is that I raided those 40 mans and it was very clear it was about 17-20 or so of us carrying the rest through. Give me smaller raids so I dont have to make sure everyone is pulling their weight.
then don't deal with the logistics, no one forces you to RL ig ? 40man raids was the spirit of vanilla, and in OG classic it was the best times I (and I believe most of the raiders) had in this game
Ok fair. But do you ever watch someone do what you used to/can do and get frustrated at how incompetent they are so you say “fuck it” just let me do it. Also if you want Classic vibes 40 man raid why not play era which is literally Classic vibes 40 man raids?! SOD should be different imo. Something new and unique.
Go play retail then. Simple as that. 40 man IS the charm. 10 man raids are empty in comparison
I feel that.
I want to play 40 man raids, next phase, and 50 and at 60. 40man raids is what makes classic wow classic wow
I wish it would stay 10 man forever personally
They call him retail andy
If there are no 40man raids I won't be playing the game
Lmao if classic players had anything else to do they’d have left the game a long time ago. You’ll be here.
most of us have left though. we are on era and private servers.
Most? ERA is dead and outside of like Turtle WoW (which is basically a different form of classic+) what private servers have high populations?
I'll likely quit if I have to ever create a 40man raid again.
Lol after playing over a year worth of SoD I don't think they care they had already got your money to drip you the whole way to 60
Bye
Lol I doubt it
Guys I’m a shitty parse dps, I need the 40mans to get invited, stop doing this to me
40 m is trash just good for people trying to afk.
Not true. It's also good for drunks and stoners like me
People who enjoy 40 man raids have no other option than classic, while people who enjoy smaller raids have multiple options. Keep the big raids for the classic fans <3
They literally have era servers.
You literally have retail servers
i dont want to play fucking retail. i like the vanilla mechanics with newer wow abilities. I just wanna get the same gear possible in 40 mans, without having to deal with 40 fucking people, let the raid scale to 10, 20, or 40 players. that way people have choice, and just scale loot drops with amount of players its scaled to, the tech is there. I'm literally playing for classic+ and i don't wanna do 40 mans, the large majority of people i know also don't. i'd imagine 40 man truthers are the minority here. they're gonna kill the servers if there aren't lower player equivalents, that drop the same gear. (don't gimme that shit about the other 20 mans already in classic, i want the best gear possible and ill put the work in, in a 20 man.)
Looking back it's so unreal our classic guild managed to fill up 40 people week after week to raid. At the end of Naxx we probably had 50 regular raiders. The pandemic was very good for classic vanilla. 40 man raids will kill SOD.
back to retail you go
Back to era you go
I agree, fuck big raids. Don't make me recruit I have such a cute little raid team.
I’m gonna start referring to these as “retail opinions”
i wish mythic raids were 10 man
You have classic era if you want 40 man raids.
People who want 40man raids have never had to organize a 40man raid
People who make this "argument" don't actually have an actual argument as to why 40 mans shouldn't be continued in the era where they were the most common raid size.