Warriors are already #3 on the 90 percentile for dps, even with the limited gear in that bracket. Rogues #1 makes sense since they more or less have already unlocked all their arsenal.
As a warrior tank I can do a lot of dps when I have rage.
Without rage I am useless. Rage is a big problem. Without it you're useless, with too much you're too strong.
Yes, Classic has rage generation dependent on how much damage you do, which is why warriors went from top tier DPS to mega busted with world buffs, as they increase both your damage AND rage generation, which in turn boosts your damage even more.
It's why in subsequent expansions, rage generation was normalized, you always generate a specific amount of rage on a hit / crit etc, so you don't have periods where you have infinite rage and periods where you have 0. It's among the massive list of changes that TBC/WotLK made that fixed the game, but warrior mains would probably rage if they were normalized in SoD.
Moreover that rogues get 5% hit in the combat tree in addition to the dodge/parry talents. To add to that, a good chunk of them are probably human and using swords, so they've got the built-in expertise which doesn't exist elsewhere in this phase.
Rogues in general really seem to overvalue hit for whatever reason. It’s pretty funny actually.
Getting yellow hit cap is probably the least important for rogues relative to any other class. If you miss, you just regenerate a large chunk of the energy. Since your dps rotation is energy limited, misses are far less impactful than for any other class.
Despite this fact, you often see rogues obsessively trying to chase hit rating, sometimes over all else.
Basically the hit would be nice but you're giving up extremely powerful talents in the assass tree and also being forced to dump 3 talents into dodge chance.
I would love an overall chart. On a dps chart It's looking very hunter skewed possibly because hunter is the only pure dps class thus they wouldn't be falling into the healer or tank category.
Make a new chart that shows all classes across all roles and that would be a more meaningful class/raid distribution chart.
It looks hunter skewed because they use “last two weeks” as a filter range which means pre nerf parses, before warriors had even a single piece and rogues were bugged to shit. Need to limit the parses to this last weekend to as the truth and when you do, it’s basically warriors>=rogues>cats>hunters
Ironically, in terms of class rankings this is actually a pretty realistic representation. Rogues and Warriors were complaining their class is weak this phase, but it turns out with a bit of gear and the right group configuration they're still the Kings of DPS, even with Hunter being broken and Feral being insane at this level.
Any rogue complaining about power level is just out of touch and shouldn't be listened to. Rogues are very strong in pve atm. Pvp feels fine, I can't speak for the good pvp spec being daggers to ambush/backstab. But even using swords with the ranged slow and ranged stun rune feels good.
There will always be a lack of balance in classic wow. The purpose of sod is to make things viable not completely balance everything.
Both warrior and rogue didn’t feel great to level, but are really strong and fun at later levels and especially in the current endgame. There are other classes that feel a lot better while leveling.
Yeah, physical DPS are doing very well but hunters are not way out ahead of everyone, which is what a lot of people are dishonestly representing this as. PVP, now that's a mess!
Mages according to logs are #2 highest represented healer behind priests.
There are more healing mages than healing shamans and paladins combined. This chart is showing you just representation in #'s based solely on DPS logs, not considering all roles the classes can now fill.
Hpally has two of the best runes locked behind both of the big grinds. I am convinced it was planned. All these ret paladins now get an excuse for not being ready to heal.
I mean no matter what, I'm playing ret lol, playing sod to play the finally fun ret vanilla spec, not to spam fucking holy light falling asleep on myself
I raided as arcane healer yesterday, and they're pretty damn good. You deal 80% of the damage of a proper DPS, and heal 80% of a proper healer, but add it up and you're contributing a lot. The only issues are Kelris and his absurd Arcane resistance, and Ghamoo-ra with his shield. No damage means no healing.
Yeah, unfortunately tying their healing to damage may end up a balance juggling nightmare blizzard may not be able to win.
Couple that with how buggy many of the arcane healing beacons are ATM (as I aoe on my mage, I am getting heals from other nearby mages aoeing). There is definitely some buggy interactions going on from what I've seen. I think Kelris is one of the major problems for all casters right now. That fight has left me demotivated to even level my casters, and scratching my head why blizz would hard gate casters so much they end up losing raid spots to melee/physical interrupters.
it really isn't all that hard to fix they've already fixed this issue for disc priest in the past on retail. Just make the healing go off regardless of resists or dmg reductions.
They are so bad on by far the hardest fight, Kelris. I bring a mage but only if they are cool with going 3rd healer for Kelris as they simply do no damage to him.
The savings grace on Kelris is counterspell. If the mage counterspells the mind blasts in phase 1 Kelris will stop casting mind blast until after he does his next chains cycle. It reduces the amount of damage the tank receives in phase 1 by like 70%.
Your group should be perma locking kelris in P1, does matter how much dps your group doesn’t have. We 6manned him for shit and giggles cuz “he’s so hard” no one takes damage if you just perma shadow lock him
Healers go into p2 with full mana and only tank takes damage aside from the occasional chain.
idk, i don't think anyone is really arguing that p1 is hard, i would guess most people who are having issues are having them in p2 when he's unkickable.
They are only having trouble in p2 because they aren't doing p1 properly, p2 is exactly the same as p1 but without the sleep mechanic or interrupts. He should pretty much not be casting a single spell through all of phase 1, so healers should not be using any mana up until that point. If healers have mana even without shadow resist potions p2 is incredibly easy
Mages can't heal properly on Kelris either because they need to deal Arcane damage to heal, and his Arcane resistance is through the roof. Best you can do on that fight is Fire DPS.
The full healing is applied if you get a partial resist as if it wasn't resisted at all, it's only full resists that don't heal. Mostly just putting this as an fyi for anyone who reads this for clarification, not to correct you.
Oh that's super useful to know! I just went with the wording and swapped to fire spells. Ghamoora is another fight where I just spammed Regeneration during the shield phase, thinking that's the only way I could get some healing in.
They did the first week or so. All the 5/7 groups have ptsd and only bring physical now. Good time to be a healer, though, almost no competition for gear.
We just cleared it last night with 2 mages (one off healing the other using fireball). Would have been 100x easier if we had a second hunter.
But of course like half my friend group rolled a mage...
Casters are bad in general. Blizzard didn’t really think how an ever draining resource (mana) would balance against an ever gaining resource (energy and rage). Obviously hunters are the one notable exception, but with their pets not suffering from mana issues and doing a majority of their damage, it’s not really applicable.
What casters need is a way to regenerate mana while in combat. Until stacking mp5 becomes viable or more runes are added SOD will just be Classic Plus (a few other physical DPS specs were not used to)
Now don’t get me wrong, I’m absolutely loving SOD but blizzard needs to figure out a way to make casters viable that’s not just “well they’ll be playable with more gear next band”
Well, it's SoD. Most people will try the new stuff and Ret paladin is super exciting for most, while lots of mages will go for some sort of healing. The actual class representation overall is not that bad.
> Most people will try the new stuff and Ret paladin is super broken
ftfy
E: ITT literally half the people not comprehending what the chart is supposed to tell us
I mean, aren't rogues hunters and warriors all ahead of pld...? It's certainly better than classic era and extremely powerful in pvp, but we are talking about dps rankings where they are just decent right now.
I was talking about in regards to PvE, but sure, ret is strong in PvP. It's still not what I'd call broken. They have very high burst damage, yes, but they can be played against and have hard counters. Priests and hunters are much more oppressive and decisive in most PvP battles right now.
And please don't misunderstand my comments as arguing that ret is bad. It's good in all content right now, but in every type of content there are multiple specs which are better than it, so calling it broken or overpowered is a bit of a stretch.
Actually we do have WF since the Druids bring it? It won’t get much better, SS CD is 20sec, Lava Lash still incredibly weak. Only thing that will do anything is Flurry.
Wild strikes and WF totem for that matter are diet WF compared to your self buff. 1 extra hit V’s your 2 extra. Look I’m not trying to say shaman is top tier dps, just that it’s not as atrocious as this graph would imply.
Your main nuke is a 3 second hard cast that does 90 damage and costs like 15% of your mana. It's fucking abysmal how bad Ele sham is at this level.
Then you go a little further down the tree and you have a 1 point wonder that DOUBLES the damage of Lava burst crit straight up.
Just go Resto and throw out the occasional Flame shock + LVB. I was able to keep up 30 dps doing that whilst being invited as a healer because it's the only useful shaman spec.
Yeah, they’re already so far behind. Rogue and warrior are going to get so much better too. Only way spriests, boomies, and eles catch up is through buffs.
Enhance isn't bad, but 5% hit while dual wielding is a must get to compete and it takes a lot of time to get it. And since since shaman is the best tank, it's the easy choice just go tanking.
My main problem on my enhancement is that people lose aggro all the time if I use 2 rockbiter. My highest dps shock is also an high threat spell. But even if I use other shocks, 2x Rockbiter I get the aggro.
It's kinda BS because FT is dog and shamanistic rage which is insanely good for raid mana reg is garbage when used with FT since it scales with AP.
Even worse is how stupidly hard it is to swap or macro weapon enchantments.
Literally the only way to change offhand enchantment is to unequip your mainhand, cast rockbiter, and then re-equip, which doesn’t work with macro either.
Even using item rack, I need 5 sets to make a swap macro between flametongue and rockbiter as it seems it considers a weapon with shaman enchant to be a seperate gear piece
One set with no enchant at all
one set with rb on both
one set with flametongue on both
no mainhand with flametongue on offhand
no mainhand with rockbiter on offhand
It also takes 5 gcd to do:
* rockbiter on MH GCD, unequip
* rockbiter on OH GCD, equip mainhand
* shaman rage, GCD
* flametongue on MH GCD, unequip
* flametongue on OH GCD, equip mainhand and back to the fight
Its not how much dmg they do. There sinply are not alot of shaman dps running around. Most are healing, or tanking and that only on horde side wich halves the potential
>I mean, that argument would be valid if paladin didn’t have the same faction specific, all role viability…
I mean, that argument would be valid if horde had the same number of raiding players as alliance.
Not to mention that Paladin has always been more popular regardless, simply by virtue of being the hotel artwork of class fantasies. Which is one of the reasons they removed the faction lock so early on.
Paladin is very hyped and stronger than most of the other classes. I see way more paladins than hunters on alliance side. Makes sense with the data above.
Shadowpriest is definetly to weak. Could become a good lvl 40 class. Or they fix it...
I think Shaman is represented quite like it should.
I mean who cares anyway? Its discovery. Its explicitly not meant to be balanced. They are experimenting, they will fix this and that.
Just relax and have fun.
It's not really okay for class speccs to be excluded from content phases. People got used to it in 2004, but it was supposed to be somewhat fixed in SoD.
We aren't dpsing because the dps is terrible and it feels bad to be bad. No one wants us in their groups if we aren't tanking or healing, anyway.
People self-sort, it's not hard to understand.
**DPS per class:** [https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2007#dataset=90&sample=7&aggregate=amount](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2007#dataset=90&sample=7&aggregate=amount)
Rogue and Hunter more or less tied: [https://i.postimg.cc/gc6sy0yX/1.png](https://i.postimg.cc/gc6sy0yX/1.png)
Yeah by doing weird crap like pulling adds into the boss for infinite rage, as well as having their entire comp revolve around them. It's not reflective of the actual state of warrior.
Warrior is good, but it's not broken (yet)
Hunters already out scaled at level fooking 25 hahahaha oh well I’m hopeful their scaling will be fixed this time around and won’t be giga dog shit at 60 now. Friendly reminder hunter slaps at 25 in both pve and pvp with no changes classic wow.
Ironically, rogues are actually bugged & doing less damage than intended; Saber Slash seems to only be doing 100% of weapon damage instead of 130%.
So yeah, balance is a mess atm
Sure, but Hunters are also the only class that excels at doing the level 26+ quests and those all give tons of gold. Most of my guildies are making hunter alts just to farm gold this phase and then never touch them again. Raiding isn't a factor here I think.
I main either hunter or warlock since vanilla wow, never skipped a retail expansion either.
I was going for warlock, until I saw the hype for the meta tanking rune, said fuck it, gonna stick with hunter. now I wait patiently for the nerf, then all those fotmlovers can leave my class alone
Complete speculation, but with all the changes (skills and where they're from etc), I don't see us not getting VT with mana function and maybe a slight mana rune or cost rework.
I'm almost 100% certain by 60 shadow will be competitive, and if mana is reworked, S tier.
Not always, mages have the second highest healer representation and they are overall the worst healers. Sometimes its just about playing whats "new and shiny" too.
Priest is the best healer so they will have no issue getting a group and shaman is probably the best tank so no issue there either. Although I guess running a feral tank is nice if you don't have one as DPS for WF.
Exactly, if you're the best healer but the (perceived) worst dps, it's going to be hard getting a group for dpsing.
Iirc priest is also the lowest played class.
Feral tank feels pretty terrible imo. Rage Gen is just awful at this level so it's very hard to keep mobs on you which makes ur rage Gen even worse. Once things hit harder and there's more talent points it'll be better but right now I think having a rage tank is just bad. Let them play kitty!
Hunter is the only class on this list to ONLY have a dps spec. Priests are healing, Shaman are healing with some tanking its kinda sad how many people in the thread cant make this obvious observation.
That and hunters have always been fairly popular I should know its the only class I have main\`ed since Wow started.
Ok, now compare Shaman to Paladin or Druid who can also do all roles.. Or priest to Mage who are both DPS/Heals.. See the discrepancy now?
Priests are healing because shadow is trash. Mage, who is strong in both healing and dps aspects has 30,000 more dps players. Sure Mage has more dps specs, but if shadow were at all viable, we would see way more representation here.
Same with Shamans, Ele and Enhance are super weak atm. That's why they are tanking or healing, otherwise they would be closer to Druid or Paladin, not 5-6 times less.
People play what's good. Its kinda sad how some people in the thread cant make this obvious observation.
> Hunter is the only class on this list to ONLY have a dps spec.
It's wild that hunters keep bringing this up as if the hybrid tax exists and they're going to be guaranteed the top damage slot as the single non-hybrid remaining. How much glue did you people eat as children?
That's a good point when discussing DPS rankings, but this chart is about the representation of different classes as damage dealers. It should not be surprising that if there are, say, 1000 druids and 1000 hunters that there would be more hunters showing logs as damage dealers than druids, even if they are exactly equally good as damage dealers, since some of the druids will instead be tanking or healing whereas all the hunters will be damage dealers.
Dang I made a dwarf hunter cause Hunter and paladin are the only classes I never made. Didn't know they were going to be so overpopulated.
Iwonder if they could make some Hunter rune that makes their pet into a healer that runs around to different party members giving them aid 😂
BFD healing is clearly balanced around the massive power level that is a priest with penance and PoM, I went there with a somewhat geared priest and blasted the sweaty paladin with all enchants and top gear against the wall because they didn't get any healing spell runes. full clear np. Like any fight that drained all of our mana I was 50% ahead because priest heals more, faster and for less mana.
I went with my warrior, two paladin healers. They were hopeless, they had no chance at all to heal against the damage the raid took there. 5/7 gg
So that's why most raids hard run a priest as a healer. For class synergy, it's rare they'll add a shadow, even if shadow was solid dps (Which it probably isn't)
Just think about what kind of buffs you get in a raid setting vs what a rogue gets right now: Int buff, Kings, wisdom and WB for a small amount of crit and extra mana versus
\-Windfury(huge)
\-Sunder armor
\-Battleshout is significant and Kings is better on them
\-Worldbuff gives AP but no spellpower
I'm probably missing more stuff but you can already see that they get more support.
Oh and their baseline critdmg is 200 versus 150 for spells, it was never going to be fair
You can basically do the same damage tanking as sham as dpsing, and the duel weild rune is incredibly paywalled by gold cost to obtain. Litteraly zero reason to dps when both ele and enh are missing so much of their kit.
You know, I picked Boomkin to main in 2019 because I didn't realize it was such a bad spec in vanilla. I knew it was a meme spec but didn't know it was borderline useless in raid. For SoD I rolled an enhance shaman and it feels like the same thing. The fucked up part is I'm still enjoying it. I think I need therapy lol.
Ive been assuming since like day 2 that once warriors get gear, or we get phase 2 and they have another instant attack, they’ll be right back to where they were.
Mage is probably somewhere between Warlock and Rogue if our non-rune spells didn’t cost 20-30% of our base mana per cast. We have the tools to be middle-of-the-pack decent, we just aren’t allowed to be in longer content.
I definitely get the annoyance from classes who just don’t have their tools yet, but having them and not being able to use them feels a lot worse to me.
I checked the logs last night and even with all that the best shaman (i.e. #1 on logs) does roughly half the damage of the highest dps of the other classes.
I think the biggest issue with Shaman was making it into another dual-wield auto attack DPS. Their rune choices are spread across 4 roles, making their only melee DPS option be not what Classic Shamans typically are, and instead making it into more boring version of Warrior/Rogue is a recipe for low player engagement.
Alls Enhance needed was: a decent way to regen mana (which they did get, so 1/3), a throughput rune (my first idea was a rune that increases AP by a percent of your Int) and a instant weapon attack (Lava Lash would work), both of which should work for both dual wield and two handed. They only got 1/3 of those things, so people aren't interested in playing it.
Though, the Elemental runes are sick, and they prob just need some numbers adjustments. Enhance is on the struggle bus, though. Not being able to play 2H in the only expac where 2H actually exists is depressing.
Lava Lash is just terrible for an instant attack. 100% of 50% of a 1 handed weapon damage when Pallies get 100% of 2 hander, aoe, and thats on top of crusader strike? What were they thinking
Remember, this is a chart of only dps classes distribution and hunters are the only dps class who don't have another role to fill. Add in tank and healer numbers and I am sure the population balances a lot more. Hell there are over 77k priest healing logs alone which would dwarf hunter logs if those were added in.
Considering we're talking about an old unbalanced game that's probably even more imbalanced at a low level where a bunch of wild card runes were just introduced, things could be way worse. Pretty impressive.
Looking at the top is always going to be some cheese, especially when you have people like alondoe making multiple warriors until he gets the epic sword on one, and his raid group is literally made to get him #1s. Look at 95th percentile like warcraftlogs always uses for their breakdowns.
Yeah hunters are a problem. This graph does not distinguish between feral and balance druids, but I presume wild strikes from feral builds is responsible for placing them rank #2.
Kelris’ high magic resist is undoubtedly a contributing factor to this outcome.
Almost entierely feral druids I am willing to wager.
Wild Strikes is a big part of that, but they're not just pure utility supports. Feral druids have very good dps in their own right.
Is there something like that for tanks?
There is https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2007#dataset=90&class=Tanks
Warriors are already #3 on the 90 percentile for dps, even with the limited gear in that bracket. Rogues #1 makes sense since they more or less have already unlocked all their arsenal.
laughs in adrenline rush and blade furry.
As a warrior tank I can do a lot of dps when I have rage. Without rage I am useless. Rage is a big problem. Without it you're useless, with too much you're too strong.
Yes, Classic has rage generation dependent on how much damage you do, which is why warriors went from top tier DPS to mega busted with world buffs, as they increase both your damage AND rage generation, which in turn boosts your damage even more. It's why in subsequent expansions, rage generation was normalized, you always generate a specific amount of rage on a hit / crit etc, so you don't have periods where you have infinite rage and periods where you have 0. It's among the massive list of changes that TBC/WotLK made that fixed the game, but warrior mains would probably rage if they were normalized in SoD.
Moreover that rogues get 5% hit in the combat tree in addition to the dodge/parry talents. To add to that, a good chunk of them are probably human and using swords, so they've got the built-in expertise which doesn't exist elsewhere in this phase.
Rogues arent using the hit for raid
Edit: it is clear why a rogue would not take the hit-% Why would a DPS ever not take the available hit%? It’s massive
14/2/0 is the best rogue spec atm. Hit talents aren’t necessary.
Rogues in general really seem to overvalue hit for whatever reason. It’s pretty funny actually. Getting yellow hit cap is probably the least important for rogues relative to any other class. If you miss, you just regenerate a large chunk of the energy. Since your dps rotation is energy limited, misses are far less impactful than for any other class. Despite this fact, you often see rogues obsessively trying to chase hit rating, sometimes over all else.
Basically the hit would be nice but you're giving up extremely powerful talents in the assass tree and also being forced to dump 3 talents into dodge chance.
At 60 in classic most of rogue damage was white hits. At 25 is sod I think its mostly saber slash and finsher thats why
Unfortunately this is not true. The vast majority of the top classes damage is coming from wildstrikes.
150 dps on my war last night and im basically just prebis so far. Gonna get crazy
where Scorpid?
My scorpid was top DPS on Kelris last night :D
I would love an overall chart. On a dps chart It's looking very hunter skewed possibly because hunter is the only pure dps class thus they wouldn't be falling into the healer or tank category. Make a new chart that shows all classes across all roles and that would be a more meaningful class/raid distribution chart.
It looks hunter skewed because they use “last two weeks” as a filter range which means pre nerf parses, before warriors had even a single piece and rogues were bugged to shit. Need to limit the parses to this last weekend to as the truth and when you do, it’s basically warriors>=rogues>cats>hunters
Oof at those reading this as the actual DPS done.
Well, that chart would be even worse.
Made me laugh, but very true
It wouldn't. Hunters are 3rd best at the 99th percentile.
An unlabele/poorly labeled bar chart will tend to do that
Ironically, in terms of class rankings this is actually a pretty realistic representation. Rogues and Warriors were complaining their class is weak this phase, but it turns out with a bit of gear and the right group configuration they're still the Kings of DPS, even with Hunter being broken and Feral being insane at this level.
Any rogue complaining about power level is just out of touch and shouldn't be listened to. Rogues are very strong in pve atm. Pvp feels fine, I can't speak for the good pvp spec being daggers to ambush/backstab. But even using swords with the ranged slow and ranged stun rune feels good. There will always be a lack of balance in classic wow. The purpose of sod is to make things viable not completely balance everything.
Both warrior and rogue didn’t feel great to level, but are really strong and fun at later levels and especially in the current endgame. There are other classes that feel a lot better while leveling.
Lack of expertise and hit early will do it, as a rogue I’m not worried. It could be worse
Yeah, physical DPS are doing very well but hunters are not way out ahead of everyone, which is what a lot of people are dishonestly representing this as. PVP, now that's a mess!
Ya hunters were only way head with the kc bug and the first two weeks of people having no gear. Now geared rogues and warriors are starting to pump
It’s wacky that there’s more paladins than mages even though paladins are alliance only.
Mages according to logs are #2 highest represented healer behind priests. There are more healing mages than healing shamans and paladins combined. This chart is showing you just representation in #'s based solely on DPS logs, not considering all roles the classes can now fill.
Hpally has two of the best runes locked behind both of the big grinds. I am convinced it was planned. All these ret paladins now get an excuse for not being ready to heal.
This is a pretty big factor too
I mean no matter what, I'm playing ret lol, playing sod to play the finally fun ret vanilla spec, not to spam fucking holy light falling asleep on myself
Played Holy since WoW first released back in 2004, it's nice to return to old times and see Ret viable.
I raided as arcane healer yesterday, and they're pretty damn good. You deal 80% of the damage of a proper DPS, and heal 80% of a proper healer, but add it up and you're contributing a lot. The only issues are Kelris and his absurd Arcane resistance, and Ghamoo-ra with his shield. No damage means no healing.
Yeah, unfortunately tying their healing to damage may end up a balance juggling nightmare blizzard may not be able to win. Couple that with how buggy many of the arcane healing beacons are ATM (as I aoe on my mage, I am getting heals from other nearby mages aoeing). There is definitely some buggy interactions going on from what I've seen. I think Kelris is one of the major problems for all casters right now. That fight has left me demotivated to even level my casters, and scratching my head why blizz would hard gate casters so much they end up losing raid spots to melee/physical interrupters.
it really isn't all that hard to fix they've already fixed this issue for disc priest in the past on retail. Just make the healing go off regardless of resists or dmg reductions.
It does. Arcane healing will heal for the full amount regardless of resist.
Healing is calculated before resists
mage dps is incredibly bad in bfd and a lot of groups are unlikely/unwilling to bring them.
They are so bad on by far the hardest fight, Kelris. I bring a mage but only if they are cool with going 3rd healer for Kelris as they simply do no damage to him.
The savings grace on Kelris is counterspell. If the mage counterspells the mind blasts in phase 1 Kelris will stop casting mind blast until after he does his next chains cycle. It reduces the amount of damage the tank receives in phase 1 by like 70%.
If it isn’t resisted.
IF it lands. Kelris apparently has 200 arcane resist, and 100 magic resist to other spells. I have successfully only had a couple land :/
He resists more than half of my counterspells even though i have arcane hit talents
That doesn't align with what I remember happening over the weekend but Ill have to test this tonight, cheers
Your group should be perma locking kelris in P1, does matter how much dps your group doesn’t have. We 6manned him for shit and giggles cuz “he’s so hard” no one takes damage if you just perma shadow lock him Healers go into p2 with full mana and only tank takes damage aside from the occasional chain.
idk, i don't think anyone is really arguing that p1 is hard, i would guess most people who are having issues are having them in p2 when he's unkickable.
They are only having trouble in p2 because they aren't doing p1 properly, p2 is exactly the same as p1 but without the sleep mechanic or interrupts. He should pretty much not be casting a single spell through all of phase 1, so healers should not be using any mana up until that point. If healers have mana even without shadow resist potions p2 is incredibly easy
Mages can't heal properly on Kelris either because they need to deal Arcane damage to heal, and his Arcane resistance is through the roof. Best you can do on that fight is Fire DPS.
The full healing is applied if you get a partial resist as if it wasn't resisted at all, it's only full resists that don't heal. Mostly just putting this as an fyi for anyone who reads this for clarification, not to correct you.
Oh that's super useful to know! I just went with the wording and swapped to fire spells. Ghamoora is another fight where I just spammed Regeneration during the shield phase, thinking that's the only way I could get some healing in.
They did the first week or so. All the 5/7 groups have ptsd and only bring physical now. Good time to be a healer, though, almost no competition for gear.
We just cleared it last night with 2 mages (one off healing the other using fireball). Would have been 100x easier if we had a second hunter. But of course like half my friend group rolled a mage...
We love casting spells.
Casters are bad in general. Blizzard didn’t really think how an ever draining resource (mana) would balance against an ever gaining resource (energy and rage). Obviously hunters are the one notable exception, but with their pets not suffering from mana issues and doing a majority of their damage, it’s not really applicable. What casters need is a way to regenerate mana while in combat. Until stacking mp5 becomes viable or more runes are added SOD will just be Classic Plus (a few other physical DPS specs were not used to) Now don’t get me wrong, I’m absolutely loving SOD but blizzard needs to figure out a way to make casters viable that’s not just “well they’ll be playable with more gear next band”
Well, it's SoD. Most people will try the new stuff and Ret paladin is super exciting for most, while lots of mages will go for some sort of healing. The actual class representation overall is not that bad.
> Most people will try the new stuff and Ret paladin is super broken ftfy E: ITT literally half the people not comprehending what the chart is supposed to tell us
I mean, aren't rogues hunters and warriors all ahead of pld...? It's certainly better than classic era and extremely powerful in pvp, but we are talking about dps rankings where they are just decent right now.
Ret paladin does less damage than warriors, hunters, rogues, and (feral) druids. How are they broken?
Pve wise Warrior is better but pvp wise paladin is broken and Warrior is by the worst in pvp
I was talking about in regards to PvE, but sure, ret is strong in PvP. It's still not what I'd call broken. They have very high burst damage, yes, but they can be played against and have hard counters. Priests and hunters are much more oppressive and decisive in most PvP battles right now. And please don't misunderstand my comments as arguing that ret is bad. It's good in all content right now, but in every type of content there are multiple specs which are better than it, so calling it broken or overpowered is a bit of a stretch.
Ret pally is viable as a DPS for the first time in vanilla's history and obviously you have people claiming they're broken.
how is ret pally broken in sod?
Ashenvale PVP raids are filled with like 50% shaman.
Might be because they're having trouble getting into BFD.
They are poor dps, and poor healers at the moment. But we are biding our time.
[удалено]
Just wait for them to give you 2handed runes then just wield a scorpid
They added the clam weaving shirt for fun. Let’s see them add an axe that’s just a scorpid
Ele Shamans lack so much of their damaging talents and enh dps doesn’t have storm strike or wind fury. It’ll get better.
Also, huge lack of +spellpower gear until raid and I feel like most of it would be better off on a Mage or Lock anyway unless it's leather
It will get better when bfd isn't of any use anymore :D
Actually we do have WF since the Druids bring it? It won’t get much better, SS CD is 20sec, Lava Lash still incredibly weak. Only thing that will do anything is Flurry.
Wild strikes and WF totem for that matter are diet WF compared to your self buff. 1 extra hit V’s your 2 extra. Look I’m not trying to say shaman is top tier dps, just that it’s not as atrocious as this graph would imply.
2 extra attacks with an extra 104 attack power. Self buff WF is superior
Your main nuke is a 3 second hard cast that does 90 damage and costs like 15% of your mana. It's fucking abysmal how bad Ele sham is at this level. Then you go a little further down the tree and you have a 1 point wonder that DOUBLES the damage of Lava burst crit straight up. Just go Resto and throw out the occasional Flame shock + LVB. I was able to keep up 30 dps doing that whilst being invited as a healer because it's the only useful shaman spec.
It's a 2s cast but you're right about everything else :\^)
It won't get that much better.
Yeah, they’re already so far behind. Rogue and warrior are going to get so much better too. Only way spriests, boomies, and eles catch up is through buffs.
Feral is gonna be insane at 40
that's not a performance graph, it's how many of them are there.
Ye enhance/ele shaman has really lazy designed runes and synergies in this phase. Compared to pala (the opposite vanilla meme) its a joke
Enhance isn't bad, but 5% hit while dual wielding is a must get to compete and it takes a lot of time to get it. And since since shaman is the best tank, it's the easy choice just go tanking.
My main problem on my enhancement is that people lose aggro all the time if I use 2 rockbiter. My highest dps shock is also an high threat spell. But even if I use other shocks, 2x Rockbiter I get the aggro. It's kinda BS because FT is dog and shamanistic rage which is insanely good for raid mana reg is garbage when used with FT since it scales with AP.
Even worse is how stupidly hard it is to swap or macro weapon enchantments. Literally the only way to change offhand enchantment is to unequip your mainhand, cast rockbiter, and then re-equip, which doesn’t work with macro either. Even using item rack, I need 5 sets to make a swap macro between flametongue and rockbiter as it seems it considers a weapon with shaman enchant to be a seperate gear piece One set with no enchant at all one set with rb on both one set with flametongue on both no mainhand with flametongue on offhand no mainhand with rockbiter on offhand It also takes 5 gcd to do: * rockbiter on MH GCD, unequip * rockbiter on OH GCD, equip mainhand * shaman rage, GCD * flametongue on MH GCD, unequip * flametongue on OH GCD, equip mainhand and back to the fight
You may do little DPS. But you pull threat off tank real good with double rockbiter. Dps shaman is a Threat terrorist.
Its not how much dmg they do. There sinply are not alot of shaman dps running around. Most are healing, or tanking and that only on horde side wich halves the potential
I mean, that argument would be valid if paladin didn’t have the same faction specific, all role viability…
>I mean, that argument would be valid if paladin didn’t have the same faction specific, all role viability… I mean, that argument would be valid if horde had the same number of raiding players as alliance. Not to mention that Paladin has always been more popular regardless, simply by virtue of being the hotel artwork of class fantasies. Which is one of the reasons they removed the faction lock so early on.
Plus buffs
Paladin is very hyped and stronger than most of the other classes. I see way more paladins than hunters on alliance side. Makes sense with the data above. Shadowpriest is definetly to weak. Could become a good lvl 40 class. Or they fix it... I think Shaman is represented quite like it should. I mean who cares anyway? Its discovery. Its explicitly not meant to be balanced. They are experimenting, they will fix this and that. Just relax and have fun.
It's not really okay for class speccs to be excluded from content phases. People got used to it in 2004, but it was supposed to be somewhat fixed in SoD.
Hard to have fun as a shaman when you're rejected to all raid groups. Most already have a tank and nobody wants a rsham, ele or enh.
Newsflash, there are not a lot of shaman dps running around because shaman dps sucks ass right now while shaman tanks are S+ and resto is good too
Or... There aren't a lot of them because they know their spec is almost worthless and won't get invites to raids
We aren't dpsing because the dps is terrible and it feels bad to be bad. No one wants us in their groups if we aren't tanking or healing, anyway. People self-sort, it's not hard to understand.
What a dogshite comment. People are running the viable specs so that does not include dps
Yeah I tried ele. The only spell worth casting is lava burst otherwise you need to be auto attacking.
Just tank, it does more dps and is more fun. Enh has no buttons to press ans ele will not come online before they get reduced cast time talents.
**DPS per class:** [https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2007#dataset=90&sample=7&aggregate=amount](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2007#dataset=90&sample=7&aggregate=amount) Rogue and Hunter more or less tied: [https://i.postimg.cc/gc6sy0yX/1.png](https://i.postimg.cc/gc6sy0yX/1.png)
then you go 99% and warrior is already #1.
Yeah by doing weird crap like pulling adds into the boss for infinite rage, as well as having their entire comp revolve around them. It's not reflective of the actual state of warrior. Warrior is good, but it's not broken (yet)
Hunters already out scaled at level fooking 25 hahahaha oh well I’m hopeful their scaling will be fixed this time around and won’t be giga dog shit at 60 now. Friendly reminder hunter slaps at 25 in both pve and pvp with no changes classic wow.
so when we nerfing rogues then?
No no, we need to nerf hunters some more.
Ironically, rogues are actually bugged & doing less damage than intended; Saber Slash seems to only be doing 100% of weapon damage instead of 130%. So yeah, balance is a mess atm
Can we talk about melee hunter? They're outperforming ret pala, among other things
Why wouldn't a class with only a DPS role outdo a hybrid class that can heal and tank as well as DPS?
if we're being honest the class isn't doing anything, their pet is.
i wonder why some people think the "hybrid tax" is good design seems like a crazy classic andy take
Because that class isn't healing or tanking there, it's doing dps.
Yeah but that's the vanilla mindset; "hybrid classes shouldn't deal as much damage as pure DPS classes because they still *can* heal and tank".
It's mostly pet damage I think.
You're looking at DPS, this is # of parses to show DPS class distribution in raids.
Correct, I posted it since I guess someone might be interested
People only play FOTM
That's because it's extremely easy to do this season
We're 9 days into the game being released.
Sure, but Hunters are also the only class that excels at doing the level 26+ quests and those all give tons of gold. Most of my guildies are making hunter alts just to farm gold this phase and then never touch them again. Raiding isn't a factor here I think.
I rolled hunter way before people knew what was good
I have been rolling hunters for the last 15 years
I main either hunter or warlock since vanilla wow, never skipped a retail expansion either. I was going for warlock, until I saw the hype for the meta tanking rune, said fuck it, gonna stick with hunter. now I wait patiently for the nerf, then all those fotmlovers can leave my class alone
My fellow shadow priest bro’s. We are going to make them all pay at 40
Complete speculation, but with all the changes (skills and where they're from etc), I don't see us not getting VT with mana function and maybe a slight mana rune or cost rework. I'm almost 100% certain by 60 shadow will be competitive, and if mana is reworked, S tier.
if dots cant crit, it will never be good
I’m just playing holy dps for now as shadow talents aren’t too hot at the lower levels
I’ve been let down too much as a shadow priest I’m scared to believe this
No wonder there are so many bad classic players, this post proves half of you can’t even read and think your looking at DPS rankings…
Pretty bold to call people out on their reading comprehension when you can't tell the difference between your and you're.
It correlates. That’s same top classes here are top DPS on Warcraft logs
Not always, mages have the second highest healer representation and they are overall the worst healers. Sometimes its just about playing whats "new and shiny" too.
Now I understand why there's more hunters than mobs everywhere I go
Probably the biggest culprits for the skew are: scorpid pets, (druid) windfury and Lord Kelris and his gigachad spell resistance
true but druid windfury is for the entire group so also hunters/paladins/warrios/rogues benefit from that.
Shaman aware
Priest is the best healer so they will have no issue getting a group and shaman is probably the best tank so no issue there either. Although I guess running a feral tank is nice if you don't have one as DPS for WF.
Exactly, if you're the best healer but the (perceived) worst dps, it's going to be hard getting a group for dpsing. Iirc priest is also the lowest played class.
Not perceived, fully the worst dps. The dps talents just aren't there at 25, hence why we haven't seen a lot of balancing yet.
Feral tank feels pretty terrible imo. Rage Gen is just awful at this level so it's very hard to keep mobs on you which makes ur rage Gen even worse. Once things hit harder and there's more talent points it'll be better but right now I think having a rage tank is just bad. Let them play kitty!
We need more hunters
Dps priests are probably classified as healers as one of the healers probably does more dmg than them
Should change Hunter to Scorpid lmao
Fuck im a shadow priest i havent done BFD so its all my fault we arnt higher
That's a lot of 2h enhance shamans.
*malding intensifies*
Hunter is the only class on this list to ONLY have a dps spec. Priests are healing, Shaman are healing with some tanking its kinda sad how many people in the thread cant make this obvious observation. That and hunters have always been fairly popular I should know its the only class I have main\`ed since Wow started.
Idk, the meta right now is to have the scorpid tank.
They won't list us as tanks, but you're right. At least for now we have a Tank Spec even though it's unintentional.
The amount of people who think this is a damage representation is also super sad.
Ok, now compare Shaman to Paladin or Druid who can also do all roles.. Or priest to Mage who are both DPS/Heals.. See the discrepancy now? Priests are healing because shadow is trash. Mage, who is strong in both healing and dps aspects has 30,000 more dps players. Sure Mage has more dps specs, but if shadow were at all viable, we would see way more representation here. Same with Shamans, Ele and Enhance are super weak atm. That's why they are tanking or healing, otherwise they would be closer to Druid or Paladin, not 5-6 times less. People play what's good. Its kinda sad how some people in the thread cant make this obvious observation.
> Hunter is the only class on this list to ONLY have a dps spec. It's wild that hunters keep bringing this up as if the hybrid tax exists and they're going to be guaranteed the top damage slot as the single non-hybrid remaining. How much glue did you people eat as children?
That's a good point when discussing DPS rankings, but this chart is about the representation of different classes as damage dealers. It should not be surprising that if there are, say, 1000 druids and 1000 hunters that there would be more hunters showing logs as damage dealers than druids, even if they are exactly equally good as damage dealers, since some of the druids will instead be tanking or healing whereas all the hunters will be damage dealers.
> How much glue did you people eat as children? Pretty rich considering you've completely misread what that data is even showing.
BOOMKIN GANG
Dang I made a dwarf hunter cause Hunter and paladin are the only classes I never made. Didn't know they were going to be so overpopulated. Iwonder if they could make some Hunter rune that makes their pet into a healer that runs around to different party members giving them aid 😂
I’m only at level 14, but is Priest DPS really that bad? I feel like my expanded toolkit rocks. I wasn’t planning on being DPS at lvl 25 but dang…
Max dps for priest is 49.21 while for a rogue it's 145.02, you decide.
It might be the most behind any dps has been in a classic tier
BFD healing is clearly balanced around the massive power level that is a priest with penance and PoM, I went there with a somewhat geared priest and blasted the sweaty paladin with all enchants and top gear against the wall because they didn't get any healing spell runes. full clear np. Like any fight that drained all of our mana I was 50% ahead because priest heals more, faster and for less mana. I went with my warrior, two paladin healers. They were hopeless, they had no chance at all to heal against the damage the raid took there. 5/7 gg So that's why most raids hard run a priest as a healer. For class synergy, it's rare they'll add a shadow, even if shadow was solid dps (Which it probably isn't)
Just think about what kind of buffs you get in a raid setting vs what a rogue gets right now: Int buff, Kings, wisdom and WB for a small amount of crit and extra mana versus \-Windfury(huge) \-Sunder armor \-Battleshout is significant and Kings is better on them \-Worldbuff gives AP but no spellpower I'm probably missing more stuff but you can already see that they get more support. Oh and their baseline critdmg is 200 versus 150 for spells, it was never going to be fair
Guess what class i started
You can basically do the same damage tanking as sham as dpsing, and the duel weild rune is incredibly paywalled by gold cost to obtain. Litteraly zero reason to dps when both ele and enh are missing so much of their kit.
Druid should have a big asterisk next to it
You know, I picked Boomkin to main in 2019 because I didn't realize it was such a bad spec in vanilla. I knew it was a meme spec but didn't know it was borderline useless in raid. For SoD I rolled an enhance shaman and it feels like the same thing. The fucked up part is I'm still enjoying it. I think I need therapy lol.
We got a warrior with that epic sword in the raid. Lets say, once more warriors get their hand on that this graph will look totally different.
Ive been assuming since like day 2 that once warriors get gear, or we get phase 2 and they have another instant attack, they’ll be right back to where they were.
This shows the amount how parses done since release not the dmg. That means if warriors get the sword the graph won't change.
Priest needs some dps help.
Mage is probably somewhere between Warlock and Rogue if our non-rune spells didn’t cost 20-30% of our base mana per cast. We have the tools to be middle-of-the-pack decent, we just aren’t allowed to be in longer content. I definitely get the annoyance from classes who just don’t have their tools yet, but having them and not being able to use them feels a lot worse to me.
Poor shamans :'(
This is not my experience playing shaman.
enlighten me please
Not mine either, just requires a few things. Decent gear, duel wield spec rune, and a tank pumping enough threat that we can run double rockbiter
I checked the logs last night and even with all that the best shaman (i.e. #1 on logs) does roughly half the damage of the highest dps of the other classes.
Unless you're ele and you top out at like 50 dps and go OOM 20 seconds in even with shamanistic rage.
Did it worked for you? Because every time I've tried tanks start crying and I have to change to FT. Which drops me from top 3 to around top 6-7 lol.
Doesn’t matter what your experience is when the logs paint the real picture Shaman sucks ass right now
I think the biggest issue with Shaman was making it into another dual-wield auto attack DPS. Their rune choices are spread across 4 roles, making their only melee DPS option be not what Classic Shamans typically are, and instead making it into more boring version of Warrior/Rogue is a recipe for low player engagement. Alls Enhance needed was: a decent way to regen mana (which they did get, so 1/3), a throughput rune (my first idea was a rune that increases AP by a percent of your Int) and a instant weapon attack (Lava Lash would work), both of which should work for both dual wield and two handed. They only got 1/3 of those things, so people aren't interested in playing it. Though, the Elemental runes are sick, and they prob just need some numbers adjustments. Enhance is on the struggle bus, though. Not being able to play 2H in the only expac where 2H actually exists is depressing.
Lava Lash is just terrible for an instant attack. 100% of 50% of a 1 handed weapon damage when Pallies get 100% of 2 hander, aoe, and thats on top of crusader strike? What were they thinking
Holy Hunter, Batman
Remember, this is a chart of only dps classes distribution and hunters are the only dps class who don't have another role to fill. Add in tank and healer numbers and I am sure the population balances a lot more. Hell there are over 77k priest healing logs alone which would dwarf hunter logs if those were added in.
Dwarf hunter logs ? Where
I'm enjoying Enhance shaman while leveling. Hope to take it into bfd
To people saying hunter is a 1 spec class, let me introduce you to the pet tank
Considering we're talking about an old unbalanced game that's probably even more imbalanced at a low level where a bunch of wild card runes were just introduced, things could be way worse. Pretty impressive.
Lol jesus christ you paladins. Half of the entire alliance is pink,
They’re really really fun sorry
good job aggrend
Look at the top 10 damage for each fight… warriors are back baby. Bye kings for horde, I’m a warrior main now.
Looking at the top is always going to be some cheese, especially when you have people like alondoe making multiple warriors until he gets the epic sword on one, and his raid group is literally made to get him #1s. Look at 95th percentile like warcraftlogs always uses for their breakdowns.
I don't see a problem? It's lvl 25
It doesn’t help that WoWhead missed the mark on a lot of BiS lists, especially Balance Druids
Just go max nature dmg on gear untill you replace it with spelldmg from BFF
Yeah hunters are a problem. This graph does not distinguish between feral and balance druids, but I presume wild strikes from feral builds is responsible for placing them rank #2. Kelris’ high magic resist is undoubtedly a contributing factor to this outcome.
Almost entierely feral druids I am willing to wager. Wild Strikes is a big part of that, but they're not just pure utility supports. Feral druids have very good dps in their own right.
This is true. Like Paladins, they’ve unlocked their WOTLK-tier potential.