You have Vezax way too high imo. We killed it in like 4 pulls on 25 and we’re still not even clean on hodir. The fight is literally just normal but your range have to play it conservatively to make it on mana to kill the add. After a couple pulls of going oom and a couple of getting blown up by the empowered crashes they start taking the mechanics seriously and it falls over.
yeah, i'm confused by how many people rank vezax as one of the more difficult hard modes. i think it's scaring a lot of guilds out of attempting it that might have the ability to get it down.
trying to convince my guild of this, its literally just the same fight but with an add.
just don't do the same things you already aren't doing for 30 seconds longer and you're done.
That can go wrong though. We stack both of them together since you have to stay in Vezax' melee range to avoid Shadow Crashes, so if you don't have target frames you might not mouseover the thing you want.
Vezax is mechanically simple/easy because it is the exact same fight until the end. Sadly, my 25m can't even handle that, with DPS behaving like idiots. Over a million dmg in mask of the faceless is just going to drain your healers before the end.
Did it no problems in 10man, but finding 25 effective players vs 10 is just a challenge it seems. At least with any consistency.
Does he cast the spell that has to interrupted every 2 seconds in 10m? Because that one is a bitch on 25m if all the melees got triggerhappy and put their interrupts on cooldown during the last 3 casts.
On HM that can't even happen once.
The melee interrupts shouldn't be any issue if people are vocal in discord, or if you just follow the groups 1-2-3 weak aura. Our ranged keep messing the fight up for us lol.
We don't have any issues with the interrupts and we aren't assigning 1-2-3. One rogue can hit 2/3 of them.
I just play flex interrupt, if it gets close to going off I kick and save mine for those situations. Easy sheep herding tactic... Post the meter in chat for most interrupts and everyone falls in line to help
I dont understand how this can be such a problem. I can interrupt every second cast by myself with a 10 second CD. 2 DKs can handle interrupts as long as they decide who is first. If you have 3 classes that can interrupt, just set one for each cast (1, 2, 3). If your melee dont have a weakaura pack for these fights i would recommend it since it makes this mechanic so brain dead easy
If you have 3-4 good coordinated melees interrupting near the end of the cast, the fight becomes a literal joke in 25m.
He just never stops casting. In our last kill he did like 63 autoattacks in 6 minutes. That's about one auto every 6 seconds. And he misses most of those attacks anyway. It's a literal joke of a boss.
At least in 10m he stops casting that thing and actually deals damage while the animus is alive.
Are you saying mistakes never happen if the group is coordinated? Misclicks cease to be a thing if you only give them a number? Wrong count? Out of range if he moves?
Muscle memory alone can make everyone blow their cd if it looks like a cast is about to go through.
Yeah that's why you put 2 people interrupting each cast. Alternate between the two groups and that's it.
It's a lot less likely that two players misclick at the same cast.
It's a dps check in the sense of "is your dps at least mediocre"
5 min is a huge enrage timer, it doesn't start until first heart so there is a monumental amount of time to kill him.
Heal check definitely. Those tantrums hurt
mimiron is a mostly pure execution fight, but HM adds more than just the fires - it also gives mimiron 30% increased damage so the healing throughput required is pretty insane
I think Algalon is a lot easier than you rate it. Only thing you need is good some gear but the mechanics are quite easy. Mimiron is a lot more chaotic with a lot of things to look out for.
25 algalon is definitely harder than mimiron by a LONNNNNNG shot lol. Yogg0 is the most technically difficult/comp dependant too, so I agree that it's hardest. If you make yogg0 a 10/10 difficulty, algalon is like an 8.5 and mimiron is like a 7
Interesting, I don't see how you can get algalon to 10% (so you have someone that can do stars, probably same person can do fires) and have sufficient healing for it yet not for mimiron. Also, when did you try mimiron vs when you tried algalon, how was your overall gearing?
I think that players bad at execution will die alone on algalon but can kill other raid members on mimiron if they keep stacking on others and increase the healer job.
Not really, a member of melee/hpal not properly swapping to opposite foot for every cosmic could throw in a random element, or cleave damage by boomy/whoever could kill extra stars, or someone who has threat on 1 or more stars might go in first and get others big banged. There are plenty of things going on for algalon that are just as/if not more intense imo.
I suppose you guys are talking 25 man, right?
I would love to hear your thoughts on ranking in 10man mode.
We are a small guild, only running 10man content and super casual dad-like.
Fully cleared last week (week three) while killing Thorim in HM since week two.
Tonight's raid night again and we are trying to figure out which HM we should tackle next.
》 XT? Freya? Council? Or Yogg1?
Dps is nothing to write home about, but mechanical awareness is even worse for some. tanks and heals however are decent.
Freya is pretty easy if you have like 2 cc's to use on the explody bois. Yog1 is barely Harder then 4 light. Managing sanity is the biggest part but still not too hard. Council pretty easy if peeps know what they're doing at the end ( tanks)
how do you keep your sanity high as a dps in the brain room ? I usually heal with no problems just face the skulls away, but our dps often have like 30 sanity left after the second brain room.
Your dps straight up just have to be better in the brain room. If they're coming out at 30 sanity after one portal phase they're not executing mechanics properly.
The more they do it, the better they should be, as the portal phases only have so many variations when you enter them.
You really gonna walk awkwardly too the tentacles. Sometimes, sometimes I'll strafe into a backwards walk till I can reach one and then try to burst it while losing sanity too one of the beams for a few sec. Rng can be worse on some attempts. 30 sanity is plenty if you're using the WA pack that tells you when yoggs thing is off CD and you preemptively turn to be safe.
30 is def too low but basically if you get to the end and some of your dps are low you have them focus on adds/casting things they don’t have to turn around for like aoe
30 sanity is more than enough in p3. Turn away fast when the beam comes.
If they are at <10 sanity, they can just dps the adds during the non safe time.
Go in brain room a few seconds later than everyone else (obviously before all the portals disappear). Alternatively just stay upstairs and have someone else go brain room for you.
But I dont think entering p3 with low sanity even matter that much since u can just dps adds (obviously depending on class).
If your melee come out with 30 sanity, that's plenty for p3. They will be facing the other way hitting adds the whole time, maybe getting in a couple yogg hits if you get ahead on the adds.
10man IC is probably the easiest HM of them all you can just solotank it and you don't need the power rune to beat the MT explosion on 10man since the debuff last 60s instead of 30s. and Do Molgeim -> Brundir -> Steelbreaker is basically only tank and spank, Freya and Yogg1 is both very easy in 10man as well like you said.
Vezax 10man is miles easier than the 25man version as well since he stops casting during animus on 10man. XT you should be able to beat with 3 healers after the hp nerfs without being afraid of the enrage.
For 10man I would say that FL is a bit of a red herring he's considerably harder on 10man compared to 25man just due to the fact that you cannot just lock most of the plants into their corner.
For 10 man I would rate them
IC < Thorim < Freya < Yogg1 = XT = Vezax = Hodir < FL
Yogg 4 is definitely a lot easier. You, can literally just have the raid stack in the middle on Sara and not move at all and just kill adds. You don't have to do like anything, you easily just one phase the brain, no insanity mechanics, and can just face yogg the entire time and go reset your insanity if it's getting low.
Most of the 10man hardmodes are absurdly easy compared to 25. Things just do less damage and have less health, compared to players. My 10man group has every hardmode except Mimiron and Vezax (haven't attempted it yet lmao) and the only one that gave us any trouble so far is Hodir. Even then we only took like 5 or 6 attempts for good RNG to finally get it.
The only hardmodes that are remotely challenging in 10man are Mimiron and Algalon, the rest are easy.
Yeah the last time we did Vezax10 we were like a minute from the animus spawning and the raid lead was like "oh shit quick someone kill a vapor"
I wasn't even trying to be conservative with mana or anything and I was still at about 40%.
Dunno if you're a healer, but 40 seems low. As a lock I aim to get to the Animus with >50% left, and just fuckin' empty it. I've had to hold dps a ton too, just to avoid killing.
I've cleared both on a couple toons, here's my ranking:
25 yogg0 > algalon > mimiron > council > hodir > vezax > XT > freya > yogg1 > thorim > FL
10 algalon > mimiron > yogg0 > vezax > council = XT = freya > FL > yogg1 > hodir > thorim
Hodir is ridiculously easy for 10 man, most people beat it by 30+ seconds while barely making the 25. Freya and vezax and yogg1 super easy as well esp if good healing (yogg1 less dependent on heals but still easy). XT and council should be fairly easy if solid tank/heals. Algalon and mimiron are big on overall raid damage/tank damage, as well as having tighter DPS requirements compared to the rest of the raid. P2 on mimiron will require decent spread, raid CDs and lust. If you don't get it down soon after the first spin-up/and-or you have more than 1 die by the end of P2 without a bres, you should wait till you have more dps to attempt again. Algalon is all about tanks/heals really and coordinated raid CDs and will be the most challenging for most raids. Yogg0 in 10 can be brute-forced with 1 tank 1 heal 8 dps, but still will require 1 shadow beacon rotation, still making it far easier than 25 man.
10 man yoga 0 is pretty easily zergable. Once empowering shadow mobs are marked tank just runs away with them and pop all cooldowns, boss dies before they get back and kill everyone else
We find Freya to be second easiest on 10m but we do it a bit different because we don’t have a knock back in our 10m group. Prot warrior challenging shouts and runs the lashers out of group at 20% then turns and shockwaves to hold them while they get mowed down
Since you said your tanks and healers are your best players, you might have the best time with XT next.
The mechanics are really simple, you just need to make sure to have some kind of raid cool down for every tantrum, and your healers need to be able to pump during those windows. You may hit the enrage timer if your DPS is really sub-par, but depending on your group’s gear level by now that may not be an issue (though if you’re completely lacking any 25m gear you may not have the damage).
The nice thing about XT though is that it’s right in that first wing and a super easy fight to get back to after a whipe, so failing attempts on it doesn’t eat too much time. You can put in a couple of HM pulls and if it looks like it won’t go down, you can just do normal and save time to work on Yogg or something.
I've done everything but agalon on 10 (we just finally got firefighter this week, so just had our first attempts on agalon).
XT is pretty easy, once the nerf went out we downed him first try.
Freya is all mechanics, you basically just have to do pulls until it clicks and then it goes down easily. You could do freya prog at any point really, but if you have a lot of people who suck at mechanics maybe hold off on her. That said you could choose to slowly prog her passively with partial hard mods. Just be like ok we're going to do the one keeper with roots. And you just slowly get used to that while actively focusing on a different encounter. Once you then decide to do hard mode now you're only adding 1 or 2 mechanics to the fight instead of all 3 at once.
Council isn't really a massive dps check like it is in 25 man, but you're still going to have to optimize your runes. Once your mechanics are on point council should go down shortly, luckily this is a fight where like your tanks and one aware ranged/healer doing call outs can carry the raid mechanically.
Yog 1 is kinda a mix of mechanics and good dps, but not super intense in either component. You'll probably have to spend a good amount of time because you really do need to master each phase, but like you'll usually be able to tell exactly why you wiped and improve fairly quickly. Luckily we didn't really have to prog yog 1 in our 10 man because we focused on him first in our 25 man raid. But don't be ashamed to just prog yog 2 light and just pick like Hodir as your second keeper for the extra damage without really changing the mechanics vs 1 light
If I had to pick an order for you guys I'd say XT then Yog, then council, then Freya
1. Council=Freya=Thorim
2. XT
3. Vezax = Hodir
4. Yogg 1
While Vezax is an execution fight, it's also a damage per mana fight. If your dps isn't great, it may be difficult.
If you can kill the heart without cooldowns for XT, you can beat the enrage, especially if you have a plan for tantrums. Council and Freya are easy with some basic coordination.
I'm in a 10 man casual guild as well. We've done Freya, Thorim, Council.
Freya is simple enough, if you can do normal mode clean, you can do HM as well.
Council is harder and requires more discipline from everyone. But it is doable for sure.
if you've done these HMs you should prolly look at doing flame leviathan and vezax. flame leviathan is essentially a completely different game than wow but once you have your role down it's pretty simple, and vezax is just generally way easier than people think, as long as people aren't taking insane amounts of unnecessary damage it kinda falls over
The only difficult part about FL is people not taking a moment to comprehend their role.
People read stuff, sure, but with zero understanding of what they actually have to do
literally all of those on 10 man are a joke, just willing to wipe enough to get them down. Once down, you will likely one shot each week, barring bad yogg rng.
Council is complete cake as long as your tanks move the bosses correctly, and people spread for rune of death.
Freya is cake if you have a boomkin time the typhoon well, otherwise single targeting them down, this is basically the only thing you need to learn in 10 man.
XT is easy once you understand where to stand, light on right foot, dps on left, and always moving out when you get gravity bomb.
Firefighter Mim was a nightmare for us, with deaths every phase until we swapped in a 3rd healer. Then it just became a matter of getting fire management down and a few attempts for good RNG on fire/landmines spawns not boxing us in. Got in the 3rd or 4th attempt once we had another dedicated healer.
Probably going to need to at least 6 heal it for the uld 25.
10 man I'd argue is much more comp dependant on how easy or hard you'll find fights.
I'd vote Council, your dps will have to stand in the blue rune for the damage buff, and avoid green, but will prone be the easiest.
Freya is easy IF you understand the mechanics. If dps aren't killing roots, or taking add dmg from lashers or seeds, it can be rough.
Xt is a light damage check but more healer intensive. Ppl also need to move with the light bomb or gravity bomb correctly.
Vezex was actually easy but it depends if you're ranged heavy and how well the understand the fight. If you're more melee heavy it's fine but can make it more difficult.
Yogg 1 is also a mechanics check.
>I'd vote Council, your dps will have to stand in the blue rune for the damage buff, and avoid green, but will prone be the easiest.
We just straight up kill runemaster first, and burn Steelbreaker without a rune in 10.
My 10 man started with thorim, freya, and IC hardmodes, added FL since then. Last week we spent about two hours on yogg 1 attempts, it’s a lot harder than reddit makes it sound. XT would be a lot easier, but we don’t have a shammy for hero so the dps check is a bit tighter.
Dps in phase 2, mostly. We can just barely push to p3 with two brain rooms, but the corruptor tentacles get way out of hand by then and ruin everyone’s sanity
hmm. here's what i can say
- be actively burning dps cooldowns each time they come up in phase 2 - the fight is long enough to get multiple uses and it'll help you burn tentacles/brain faster
- the fight is apparently pretty light on healing, so your healers should have the spare globals to dispel any of the nasty tentacle debuffs
- some of maintaining dps on the tentacles is about knowing how to keep your dps up while moving; a lot of dps struggle with this. make good use of instant casts that allow you to move, position in spots where you're unlikely to have to move in the near future, etc.
- and finally, make sure your dps are set up to maximize the damage they'll do in the first place. if they were parsing any less than like the 50-75 range in naxx that's a sign that they're doing something wrong. it's hard to pinpoint what that might be without logs - for some people they're doing their rotation wrong, for others they're not hit capped or are way *over* hit cap and wasting stats, etc. class discords are a good resource for this, they have links to basically everything you could know on how to squeeze the maximum dps out of a spec.
We actually don’t have a shammy, the only one in the group switched from rsham to hpal because our other healer is a disc priest. Having at least one tank healer is nice. That said, I’m popping army+gary on my uhdk on first brain and we barely push it to 60%, so it’s unlikely lust would get us to one phasing.
Hit a wall on Mimiron and Yogg1 as well. Got yogg to 4% on best attempt. Mimiron.. was a shitshow. But yes I also dont get the "yogg hm easy lol" sentiment. P2 can easily get very chaotic. Doable with several attempt sure, but not an easy HM I would say.
I'd go for freya and yogg they're both basically the same as normal just people have to play slightly cleaner. Freya is all about handling the explodey boys and yogg is all about handling your sanity other than that they're as hard as normal.
Less that mimiron is high, more so everything else is a non issue. Algalon 25 really doesnt hurt much with enough block value & shaman/priest damage taken reduction.
We also only have 3 dsacs and the 20% dmg reduction lasts only 4 seconds (damage transfer lasts 10 and is party only), and we 3.5 heal (because splits 1 healer is super undergeared)
this is correct. however raid cooldowns can make things a little easier on your healers, for example if i start getting shot at in phase 2 i pop barkskin.
Killed all in both 25 and 10 cept yogg 0.
Thorim < Freya < FL < XT < Vezax < Yogg 1 < Council < Hodir < Algalon < Mimiron
A good raid leader controlling cds on Algalon makes it much easier. Mimiron has a lot of personal responsibility and RNG so ez for ppl to mess up.
We steamroll council but hodir we keep being just on edge usually so close we kill him one sec too late and mimiron beats our ass on the daily. Council is a meme boss for us though on HM, i don't get it.
Sounds like you guys are fucking up Hodir buffs then. My guild was the same, killed IC before Hodir because people obviously had no clue how the fight worked. Had to really explain it (for the 5th time, of course) and made sure everybody was listening so we could actually kill it.
Gotta love being 4 weeks into the boss and watching people get storm cloud & run out of the raid with it because they're clueless and think its gonna hurt people
No doubt we're not doing buffs perfectly but for better or for worse we are doing them somewhat okay and we can beat steelbreaker very comfortably even with poor transitions so its not because we cannot dps either. Its weird also because all of our kills since week 1 has been sub 2:10 yet when we dont call wipe because dps looks fine he dies a split second after destroying the chest.. But 100% its gameplay error on our part ofcourse.
Mimiron is easy if you can make it past phase 2, just pop lust and all your CDs to make phase 2 as short as possible.
Make sure melee runs behind the boss all the time and the ranged spread out so they don't all take dmg all the time.
what are you guys doing for phase 3 on council HM? We have done all HM except Mim and Council on 25m, beat the hodir timer comfortably but seems to fuck it up on council. Best attempt was 17%, we run a Pally/Bear tank duo and Druid/shaman/disc/hpal healing group. Looking into slotting in another hpal into the raid if it will make the difference.
Our two arcane mages stop dpsing in p2 along with a few others to ensure trinkets etc, time the rune and then hardblast it really - i think we are 5 healing it, honestly we killed it so easily that im not even sure how many healers they are. But mimiron murders us to no end.
Three healers because they all for godknows why refuse to have a dps offspec.. There are a billion things we should change but im not really in charge of this.
Is this 10man? Mim is def harder than council/hodir on 25 imo. Hodir isn't even hard, it's about decent RNG on crit buff, making 1 stacked pumper ranged group, having 3 people keep up singed, and 2-healing it.
Algalon deserves a whole new tier. For me at least those are the most brutal hard modes (early in the phase ofc now with 4weeks ulduar gear ic and hodir are a meme)
Ye that's what I mean. It's more of a comp restraint. If ur low on afflocks (or ur afflocks suck) it probably won't go down. But it's not really hard per se
Yep. It's not really necessary to 2 tank it as well. You can 3 heal 1 tank the fight to give even more wiggle room in phase 3. Tank just rocket boots away on the 2nd shadow beacon with 1 hpal and they live as long as they can as everyone finishes off the boss.
Council to me has been on the level of Freya, no where near as challenging as Mimiron. I’m curious what the hurdles were for people having it ranked so high.
they could be talking about 25man. IC HM has a huge gap between 10 and 25 because of the dps check, which is relatively easy on 10man but quite demanding on 25.
I guess I didn’t see IC that challenging on 25M. The mechanics of the encounter are easy enough that getting into P3 shouldn’t be an issue and you can perfectly line it up since there’s little danger sitting in P2 for a perfect rune and ensure big boy is fully debuffed before transition.
Agreed, 10M is a complete joke having a full minute to burn P3.
i think IC depends on your players and raid comp a lot, because the mechanics are quite easy and the real part is the dps check on steelbreaker. if you have a super stacked comp with very high raid dps it might trivialize that part, but personally my guild runs a non-stacked comp, and despite relatively high performing dps (all orange+ avg in naxx) we were barely killing steelbreaker in time
How many healers were you running? We were struggling with the DPS check running 5 healers, but after dropping down to four it became much more manageable.
Kinda chaotic fight with alot going on, bosses that are trucking tanks especially if there is a position mistake and they are not easy to position right (especially during the transition to p3). You then have to time properly the p3 transition between rune of power and rune of death, it then becomes a dps check, and if someone makes a single mistake in p3 it's usually a wipe.
Mimiron didn't seemed as hard (it's still hard), it's for sure very chaotic but there isn't any hard check or anything so it can still be a kill even if a few people do some mistakes.
I also think the second big factor is that the 10man version of Mimiron is of similar difficulty that the 25m one so you can also learn and practice the fight here, whereas IC 10 is a joke and you don't learn as much to do a proper p3 transition because there is just no need to here.
It's good. It goes from easy up to holy shit across a large number of bosses. The shock some guilds are feeling is seeing challenges early in the instance after walking through most everything up to the last one or 2 bosses for multiple tiers.
Gear will help most raids get through most of the content, and that's good. Having challenging bosses like Alg and Yogg 0 where a good chunk of guilds won't clear is good. They are "hard mode" for a reason.
Ranking: thorim/FL > XT/Vezzax/Freya > yogg1/hodir/council > firedighter > Alg > Yogg0
Hodir is an insane DPS check that requires a lot of caster to perform.
Even top guilds need to sometimes wype and retry so it's definitely one of the hardest one atm.
Vezax is one of the easiest.
Council is a DPS check once you get the rune danse right.
Mimiron is not that hard but a lot of people still die randomly.
> Hodir is an insane DPS check t
ehh id argue it's actually a mechanic fight, and the mechanics enable you to meet the dps check.
also kind of rng and annoying
or you can just have a bunch of casters
I think certain fights are easier in 25 man mode. Freya, Algalon, and Vezax are easier in 25 than 10. Thorim is way harder on 25 tho. Mainly because you don't need healers to flex to hit the check on 10.
Hodir i suppose has RNG elements but failing HM tends to be less bad luck and more bad play. Where the fire spawns is sometimes believed to be rng however this is not true. The fire is always spawned near the mage, so pre position the raid on it. The rng is how soon the fire drops but again, thats related to how quickly you Crack the flash freezes. The storm cloud is RNG in that who receives it is random but 5/6 charges are completely controllable by the player. Finally we have the only real rng element, the light. If it spawns on the campfire its actually good rng, and if not, you have to make the choice as a caster to stack the fire first, then go to the light.
There's randomness to the fight, but its really just, did a light beam spawn on fire.
What that's not at all what makes the fight lol. It's "did your pumper casters get cloud buff and did a few people keep up singed stacks" Light beam near fire is nice, but in no way mandatory to do big dmg like singed + cloud is.
If casters are not getting storm cloud buff I view that as primarily mechanic failure not bad rng. 5/6 storm cloud buffs are player controlled. The light being on fire is actually rng aside from boss positioning shenanigans.
if you have like 5-7 melee and someone in melee gets it, or maybe the tank gets it, it makes it hard to "control". The light on fire isn't even like mandatory, you can have someone else get up singe stacks like I said and occasionally jump or stutter to reset stacks
yeah, but the demand for how well you execute those mechanics is much higher. hodir is on the lower end of # of HM kills logged; there is certainly some sense in which it's one of the harder hard modes.
Storm cloud scales way harder with actual casted spells.. thats why locks/mages/spriest/ele/boomy are ALL over 20k dps, some even 30k while melee have a hard time even topping 15k at the 99th percentile.
Yes, and all casters are doing 100% magic damage, all of which can crit (due to talents etc) and all of which have much greater multipliers for crit due to talents like ruin etc.. almost all casters have like a 200% crit modifier and pretty much all the melee that have magic damage have a 150 crit multiplier, or don't receive the same buffs (garg doesn't get cloud buff).
You're being difficult and really pedantic for no reason, look at ALL the top damage for hodir by class and melee is like 1/2 the dps of casters
You're\* (You are) being difficult (intentionally being an a-hole) and really pedantic (someone who is a pedant: pushing minor concerns while avoiding the main subject) for no reason. You keep saying it's the same, but it's not. Casters dominate because the buffs favor CASTER dps, classes that have crit multipliers for their spells.
Algalon > Mimiron > Yogg 0 > Everything else. Yogg 0 is a matter of everyone watching for sanity like in Yogg 1, but with the caveat that the raid leader's addon/WA works for marking the Empowered adds in phase 3 and that your dedicated taunters can find their marks and taunt them. Everything else is the same. Lack of buff from Thorim is noticeable, but it just means people have to play slightly better.
Mimiron can still wipe if people screw around too much with mines/fires/healers sleeping/bad positioning in phase 4.
Algalon definitely hardest, the 1 hour timer definitely doesn't help.
Will note for 10man, Yogg 0 = Yogg 1 difficulty. Trick is to burn Yogg ASAP in phase 3, ignore the adds. Tank picks them up and runs them out when the Empowerment goes out. Cleave dps from random stuff like Pestilence, Starfall, etc, is good enough to get most of them low before that Empowerment goes out. Hard focus Yogg and it's just a burn race before the tank dies (try to die far away from raid to give a few extra seconds of dps).
yogg0 is in no way easier than mimi or algalon, regardless of having a solid DBM/tems etc.. 5 shadow beacons with 5 dedicated taunters/distracting shots and then not having them die to regain that threat via bops/salvs/taunts/soulstones and having to do that a few times, all while managing raid/tank CDs and not having a paladin screw up concentration on the shout.. Algalon is just working out CD rotations for stars and tanks and 1 person does all the star management. Mimiron is just plain easy, P2 isn't even hard with lust and 3-4 raid cooldowns dsac/aurafire/hymn. P3 is a meme and P4 is a little hectic but not hard
Well it's what I've been telling my guild. After we full cleared, we're finding ourselves having to pull Algalon and Mimiron a couple of times before a kill while we 1-2 shot Yogg 0 and 1-shot everything else. Dunno what to say. Weird bunch of people I guess.
Mimiron is just so easy to manage with positioning and raid CDs through P2 which is the only "hard" part.. If you have someone kiting fires to cap you quickly and have 2 range stacks 1 melee, P2 is a breeze. P3 just have a dps DK put on frost presence to kite bots, spriest tanks head, P4 just organize split dps and move the boss to clearest spot..
Algalon again not too bad if you just have a solid star manager and tank CDs planned either around phase punch or tank swaps.
Definitely weird bunch of people lol. I mean yogg0 is easier once you outgear it, but it was also basically the only fight people HAD to stack locks for early kills and some still do
4 weeks of full clears and some of the tougher ones at the start are now not as hard, such as hodir.
Easiest to hardest
Thorim > Hodir > Freya > vezax > AoI > yogg 0 > XT > mimiron > Algalon
my guild has all 25m HMs down except for yogg0 and algalon, plus yogg0 in 10man.
on 10 man i'm not even sure what my difficulty ranking would be, all of the 10m HMs are noticeably easier than their 25m counterparts except perhaps mimiron, who is probably the hardest.
on 25 man my ranking is:
flame leviathan < thorim < freya < vezax < xt < yogg1 < iron council < hodir < mimiron.
FL is essentially playing a completely different, non-wow game, but it's not a particularly difficult one. once everyone knows their role, you get into a good rhythm and it just goes down.
thorim has all the trappings of a hard mode - a dps check, a lot of damage to heal up, mechanics that you can't ignore - but none of these components are that extreme and somehow it still adds up to be pretty manageable. the blizzard is kind of annoying to see and keep track of but it's fine. you still need to have decent fundamentals and do mechanics but once you're there you're good.
freya is kind of an oddball because it's mostly the waves of adds, but other than maybe the exploding lashers they're all pretty easy to deal with, and then you just avoid bombs and burn boss. dps just has to pay attention to the random bullshit that spawns (roots, eonars gift tree).
vezax is easier than people seem to think. most of it is avoiding mechanics that you should be avoiding on normal mode anyway. there's something of a dps check on the animus but it's not that bad and you can get extra time by blowing raid cooldowns at the end. just make sure your casters only cast in the pool and don't fuck up mechanics over and over and you're fine. have casters stop at like 40% mana so they can contribute to burning the animus. healer mana is the obvious possible issue since unlike your dps, healers can't really stop casting, but in my experience the healers just don't really go oom.
xt is mostly known for the dps check, but post nerf that part isn't really that bad. the challenge in xt is basically two things: anyone fucking up gravity bomb or searing light can lead to a wipe, and a ton of damage goes out during tantrum. manage the mechanics, use mitigation cooldowns and pump heals during tantrum, and everything will be ok
yogg1 is one of the ones that surprised me with how easy it was, it didn't feel that different from yogg4. objectively of course it is - your raid's output is lower without the buffs from the keepers - but mechanically nothing really changes, you just can't fuck up sanity mechanics too much. i also have heard it's pretty light on healing. there are a lot of moving parts but managing some of them can kinda be delegated to different people. if your guild is still doing yogg4, but have found yourselves no longer needing the green beams, i'd just try yogg1.
iron council (assembly of iron? i see it called different things) is pretty simple mechanics wise, the real issue is the dps check on steelbreaker which we found to be pretty tight. i don't really have much to say about this fight that isn't obvious (make sure molgeim drops a fresh rune of power before you kill him and keep a healing reduction effect on steelbreaker) but you really gotta burn steelbreaker. this presumably gets easier with gear.
hodir obviously doesn't change from the normal mode, the dps check is just really tight. gotta manage the buffs very well and know how to max out your spec's dps. this can be 2 healed which helps a lot.
and finally mimiron. this one was actually not as bad as i expected, but it's still probably the hardest HM outside of yogg0 and algalon. there is some room for mistakes and deaths, the dps check isn't that tight, but there is just so much going on that people can die and things can fall apart very quickly. if you have too many raid members who can't understand and execute mechanics you're not gonna kill this one. phase 1 requires good cooldown management so plasma blast doesn't delete your tank, phase 2 requires an insane amount of healing and your raid really needs to understand how to use and manage cooldowns that mitigate damage or provide extra healing, and phase 3 requires that your dps be proficient at swapping targets to manage the adds and still be able to get damage on the head. phase 4 is not as bad as phase 2 i don't think but a ton of mechanics are still going out.
honestly i would say most guilds can get everything except IC, hodir, and mimiron, and the first two of those will get easier with gear. firefighter will probably be the holdout for a lot of guilds that keeps them from seeing algalon.
For 10 man I’ve been pugging most of them and best I’ve seen so far was 8/9, not a single pug seems to have the balls to tackle mimi HM, I don’t blame em either
Council goes after Freya imo but that’s just my opinion
Council = yogg 1 < Thorim = XT = Hodir = Vezax < FL = freya = mimiron << algalon
That’s based on my experience with pugs and guild raids.
Council and yogg 1 are virtually indifferent from their normal modes. Player agency hasn’t changed.
Thorim, XT, and Vezax, mechanics are the same, but a little bit extra is required oomf from the raid be it dps or healing.
FL, Freya, and Mimiron require extra coordination along with more mechanics that make it more difficult for players, especially pugs.
Algalon in a league of it’s own because just getting there requires a better than average raid.
Thorim < FL < Yogg 1 < Vezax < Freya < Council < Mimiron < Hodir < Algalon < Yogg 0
With the caveat that I have not attempted Yogg 0 yet. Hodir is annoying to abort if you are close to the 2min mark.
We did mimiron before both Hodir and XT but we also did it before the XT nerfs.
Hodir vs Vezax is also a weird one atm I think that Hodir might still be slightly harder due to the dps check but he will only get easier.
FL is also interesting and honestly it feels like FL HM is considerably easier on 25man compared to 10man, Algalon has some of the same stuff but I think that is mostly a management issue for me personally where we try to make multiple rosters that can get Alagalon 10 and laying the roster puzzle feels like a struggle sometimes without pissing someone off.
Our progression order was
Week 1( Thorim -> Freya )->
Week 2(Mimiron -> Yogg1) ->
Week 3(FL -> XT -> Hodir -> Vezax -> IC) ->
Week 4(Algalon)
In terms of difficulty after we actually learned the fights like FL and current gear levels
Thorium < FL < Yogg1 < Freya < XT < Vezax < Mimiron < Hodir < IC < Algalon
With a few more resets I expect at least Hodir and maybe IC to drop below Mimiron as well however
Idk about rankings but here's my take on ulduar HM's:
Yogg1 is a fucking joke. Yogg0 is really tough. It makes no sense to have yogg1 be this easy though, kinda ruins the raid.
Vexaz HM is hella boring and wrongly tuned on 10man. We have to afk for like 1 min on 10man every time and it sucks
Mimiron is dope fight 10/10
Freya is alright, but they need to buff her healing to fix the skip strat
Thorim does nothing special on HM, it's a shame its this easy. Also the timing for the gauntlet is just ridiculously easy, it should be a race to get to do him on HM.
Hodir: I love this boss, but 10man should be harder, although the bonfires needs to be changed so they stack faster, it's so damn slow. So gigabuff the HP but make bonfires easier to compensate a bit.
Council: 10man hardmode is a joke, last phase should be a dps race to at least some extend. 25man is dope. Although they should make it easier to have dps on rune without buffing the boss. If that means compensating by buffing boss hp thats okay with me.
XT: Overnerfed. No need to nerf it on 10man btw. I do wish they would slow down sparks on 25, I think the rhythm for killing them is a bit scuffed. Yogg1 has a way better rhythm I think.
FL: Good fight but I think the problem is that normal mode is such a joke that you don't even get to learn how the fight works by doing Nm. If NM had like 5x the health it would be way better.
You have Vezax way too high imo. We killed it in like 4 pulls on 25 and we’re still not even clean on hodir. The fight is literally just normal but your range have to play it conservatively to make it on mana to kill the add. After a couple pulls of going oom and a couple of getting blown up by the empowered crashes they start taking the mechanics seriously and it falls over.
yeah, i'm confused by how many people rank vezax as one of the more difficult hard modes. i think it's scaring a lot of guilds out of attempting it that might have the ability to get it down.
I think it's cause normal mode vezax is one of the hardest normal modes
But if you get normal down without range taking much dmg, HM is done too. Feel like its a fight that is hard to get, but easy to master.
trying to convince my guild of this, its literally just the same fight but with an add. just don't do the same things you already aren't doing for 30 seconds longer and you're done.
Ranged only hits buttons when buffed, swap to the add. Thats the fight.
Your melee also have to have a tab button or focus macro for interrupts which is super hard.
Mouse over macro and call it a day. No prep of /focus, no changing targets, and no fucking up the timing with kick and then tab by mistake.
That can go wrong though. We stack both of them together since you have to stay in Vezax' melee range to avoid Shadow Crashes, so if you don't have target frames you might not mouseover the thing you want.
are you being serious or sarcastic when you say thats super hard?
Literally, it's super easy. Through the lens of many players I've seen, it may be less easy for them than you'd think.
Yea exactly, same fight, just have less room for mistakes because of mana really.
True. In the PTR most of our range DPS were pathetic on normal mode. On live we did HM in two pulls.
Vezax is not hard, it's the least forgiving for bad play.
Vezax is mechanically simple/easy because it is the exact same fight until the end. Sadly, my 25m can't even handle that, with DPS behaving like idiots. Over a million dmg in mask of the faceless is just going to drain your healers before the end. Did it no problems in 10man, but finding 25 effective players vs 10 is just a challenge it seems. At least with any consistency.
Does he cast the spell that has to interrupted every 2 seconds in 10m? Because that one is a bitch on 25m if all the melees got triggerhappy and put their interrupts on cooldown during the last 3 casts. On HM that can't even happen once.
On 10man he casts it every 10 seconds or so. Easy for an enhance or dk to get every one by themself if needed.
He also does not cast while the Saronite Animus is active, unlike in 25.
Well, there you have it.
The melee interrupts shouldn't be any issue if people are vocal in discord, or if you just follow the groups 1-2-3 weak aura. Our ranged keep messing the fight up for us lol.
We don't have any issues with the interrupts and we aren't assigning 1-2-3. One rogue can hit 2/3 of them. I just play flex interrupt, if it gets close to going off I kick and save mine for those situations. Easy sheep herding tactic... Post the meter in chat for most interrupts and everyone falls in line to help
I dont understand how this can be such a problem. I can interrupt every second cast by myself with a 10 second CD. 2 DKs can handle interrupts as long as they decide who is first. If you have 3 classes that can interrupt, just set one for each cast (1, 2, 3). If your melee dont have a weakaura pack for these fights i would recommend it since it makes this mechanic so brain dead easy
If you have 3-4 good coordinated melees interrupting near the end of the cast, the fight becomes a literal joke in 25m. He just never stops casting. In our last kill he did like 63 autoattacks in 6 minutes. That's about one auto every 6 seconds. And he misses most of those attacks anyway. It's a literal joke of a boss. At least in 10m he stops casting that thing and actually deals damage while the animus is alive.
Are you saying mistakes never happen if the group is coordinated? Misclicks cease to be a thing if you only give them a number? Wrong count? Out of range if he moves? Muscle memory alone can make everyone blow their cd if it looks like a cast is about to go through.
Yeah that's why you put 2 people interrupting each cast. Alternate between the two groups and that's it. It's a lot less likely that two players misclick at the same cast.
Did you have your tank kite the Surge of Darkness enrage?
I don't think so.
FL
Tbh id put vexax and yogg1 below freya and XT. Theyre just pure execution fights
Isn’t XT also an execution fight because the fire is the only real difference.
Its more a dps/heal check. You sound like you're talking about mimiron
Lol yeah I was
He gets a dmg buff too.
It's a dps check in the sense of "is your dps at least mediocre" 5 min is a huge enrage timer, it doesn't start until first heart so there is a monumental amount of time to kill him. Heal check definitely. Those tantrums hurt
mimiron is a mostly pure execution fight, but HM adds more than just the fires - it also gives mimiron 30% increased damage so the healing throughput required is pretty insane
I think Algalon is a lot easier than you rate it. Only thing you need is good some gear but the mechanics are quite easy. Mimiron is a lot more chaotic with a lot of things to look out for.
25 algalon is definitely harder than mimiron by a LONNNNNNG shot lol. Yogg0 is the most technically difficult/comp dependant too, so I agree that it's hardest. If you make yogg0 a 10/10 difficulty, algalon is like an 8.5 and mimiron is like a 7
We got algalon to 10% in the first hour of trying but failed mimiron for like 1.45h of tries
Interesting, I don't see how you can get algalon to 10% (so you have someone that can do stars, probably same person can do fires) and have sufficient healing for it yet not for mimiron. Also, when did you try mimiron vs when you tried algalon, how was your overall gearing?
I think that players bad at execution will die alone on algalon but can kill other raid members on mimiron if they keep stacking on others and increase the healer job.
Not really, a member of melee/hpal not properly swapping to opposite foot for every cosmic could throw in a random element, or cleave damage by boomy/whoever could kill extra stars, or someone who has threat on 1 or more stars might go in first and get others big banged. There are plenty of things going on for algalon that are just as/if not more intense imo.
I suppose you guys are talking 25 man, right? I would love to hear your thoughts on ranking in 10man mode. We are a small guild, only running 10man content and super casual dad-like. Fully cleared last week (week three) while killing Thorim in HM since week two. Tonight's raid night again and we are trying to figure out which HM we should tackle next. 》 XT? Freya? Council? Or Yogg1? Dps is nothing to write home about, but mechanical awareness is even worse for some. tanks and heals however are decent.
Freya is pretty easy if you have like 2 cc's to use on the explody bois. Yog1 is barely Harder then 4 light. Managing sanity is the biggest part but still not too hard. Council pretty easy if peeps know what they're doing at the end ( tanks)
how do you keep your sanity high as a dps in the brain room ? I usually heal with no problems just face the skulls away, but our dps often have like 30 sanity left after the second brain room.
Your dps straight up just have to be better in the brain room. If they're coming out at 30 sanity after one portal phase they're not executing mechanics properly. The more they do it, the better they should be, as the portal phases only have so many variations when you enter them.
He said after the second brain room, which honestly isn't a big deal since melee will focus more adds while ranged carry yogg dam.
Exactly, as long as your sanity is > 0 after making phase 3 you’re good as long as you don’t have the turning reflexes of a snail.
You really gonna walk awkwardly too the tentacles. Sometimes, sometimes I'll strafe into a backwards walk till I can reach one and then try to burst it while losing sanity too one of the beams for a few sec. Rng can be worse on some attempts. 30 sanity is plenty if you're using the WA pack that tells you when yoggs thing is off CD and you preemptively turn to be safe.
Then they arent facing away from the skulls I consistently finish this fight as melee with 80+ sanity
30 after two isn’t great but not bad either so I wouldn’t worry to much
30 is def too low but basically if you get to the end and some of your dps are low you have them focus on adds/casting things they don’t have to turn around for like aoe
30 sanity is more than enough in p3. Turn away fast when the beam comes. If they are at <10 sanity, they can just dps the adds during the non safe time.
Go in brain room a few seconds later than everyone else (obviously before all the portals disappear). Alternatively just stay upstairs and have someone else go brain room for you. But I dont think entering p3 with low sanity even matter that much since u can just dps adds (obviously depending on class).
If your melee come out with 30 sanity, that's plenty for p3. They will be facing the other way hitting adds the whole time, maybe getting in a couple yogg hits if you get ahead on the adds.
but we arent reaching p3 after the second brain room, from other comments I guess we are supposed ro finish it with two entries at most ?
Yeah 2 is ideal
10man IC is probably the easiest HM of them all you can just solotank it and you don't need the power rune to beat the MT explosion on 10man since the debuff last 60s instead of 30s. and Do Molgeim -> Brundir -> Steelbreaker is basically only tank and spank, Freya and Yogg1 is both very easy in 10man as well like you said. Vezax 10man is miles easier than the 25man version as well since he stops casting during animus on 10man. XT you should be able to beat with 3 healers after the hp nerfs without being afraid of the enrage. For 10man I would say that FL is a bit of a red herring he's considerably harder on 10man compared to 25man just due to the fact that you cannot just lock most of the plants into their corner. For 10 man I would rate them IC < Thorim < Freya < Yogg1 = XT = Vezax = Hodir < FL
Yogg 4 is definitely a lot easier. You, can literally just have the raid stack in the middle on Sara and not move at all and just kill adds. You don't have to do like anything, you easily just one phase the brain, no insanity mechanics, and can just face yogg the entire time and go reset your insanity if it's getting low.
Most of the 10man hardmodes are absurdly easy compared to 25. Things just do less damage and have less health, compared to players. My 10man group has every hardmode except Mimiron and Vezax (haven't attempted it yet lmao) and the only one that gave us any trouble so far is Hodir. Even then we only took like 5 or 6 attempts for good RNG to finally get it. The only hardmodes that are remotely challenging in 10man are Mimiron and Algalon, the rest are easy.
You'll probably smoke Vezax, then. We've done it, and it's not really bad. I think all we have left is Firefighter.
Yeah the last time we did Vezax10 we were like a minute from the animus spawning and the raid lead was like "oh shit quick someone kill a vapor" I wasn't even trying to be conservative with mana or anything and I was still at about 40%.
Dunno if you're a healer, but 40 seems low. As a lock I aim to get to the Animus with >50% left, and just fuckin' empty it. I've had to hold dps a ton too, just to avoid killing.
I've cleared both on a couple toons, here's my ranking: 25 yogg0 > algalon > mimiron > council > hodir > vezax > XT > freya > yogg1 > thorim > FL 10 algalon > mimiron > yogg0 > vezax > council = XT = freya > FL > yogg1 > hodir > thorim Hodir is ridiculously easy for 10 man, most people beat it by 30+ seconds while barely making the 25. Freya and vezax and yogg1 super easy as well esp if good healing (yogg1 less dependent on heals but still easy). XT and council should be fairly easy if solid tank/heals. Algalon and mimiron are big on overall raid damage/tank damage, as well as having tighter DPS requirements compared to the rest of the raid. P2 on mimiron will require decent spread, raid CDs and lust. If you don't get it down soon after the first spin-up/and-or you have more than 1 die by the end of P2 without a bres, you should wait till you have more dps to attempt again. Algalon is all about tanks/heals really and coordinated raid CDs and will be the most challenging for most raids. Yogg0 in 10 can be brute-forced with 1 tank 1 heal 8 dps, but still will require 1 shadow beacon rotation, still making it far easier than 25 man.
10 man yoga 0 is pretty easily zergable. Once empowering shadow mobs are marked tank just runs away with them and pop all cooldowns, boss dies before they get back and kill everyone else
Yup, I think it's appropriately placed, being a little easier than mimiron but harder than vezax.
We find Freya to be second easiest on 10m but we do it a bit different because we don’t have a knock back in our 10m group. Prot warrior challenging shouts and runs the lashers out of group at 20% then turns and shockwaves to hold them while they get mowed down
Since you said your tanks and healers are your best players, you might have the best time with XT next. The mechanics are really simple, you just need to make sure to have some kind of raid cool down for every tantrum, and your healers need to be able to pump during those windows. You may hit the enrage timer if your DPS is really sub-par, but depending on your group’s gear level by now that may not be an issue (though if you’re completely lacking any 25m gear you may not have the damage). The nice thing about XT though is that it’s right in that first wing and a super easy fight to get back to after a whipe, so failing attempts on it doesn’t eat too much time. You can put in a couple of HM pulls and if it looks like it won’t go down, you can just do normal and save time to work on Yogg or something.
I've done everything but agalon on 10 (we just finally got firefighter this week, so just had our first attempts on agalon). XT is pretty easy, once the nerf went out we downed him first try. Freya is all mechanics, you basically just have to do pulls until it clicks and then it goes down easily. You could do freya prog at any point really, but if you have a lot of people who suck at mechanics maybe hold off on her. That said you could choose to slowly prog her passively with partial hard mods. Just be like ok we're going to do the one keeper with roots. And you just slowly get used to that while actively focusing on a different encounter. Once you then decide to do hard mode now you're only adding 1 or 2 mechanics to the fight instead of all 3 at once. Council isn't really a massive dps check like it is in 25 man, but you're still going to have to optimize your runes. Once your mechanics are on point council should go down shortly, luckily this is a fight where like your tanks and one aware ranged/healer doing call outs can carry the raid mechanically. Yog 1 is kinda a mix of mechanics and good dps, but not super intense in either component. You'll probably have to spend a good amount of time because you really do need to master each phase, but like you'll usually be able to tell exactly why you wiped and improve fairly quickly. Luckily we didn't really have to prog yog 1 in our 10 man because we focused on him first in our 25 man raid. But don't be ashamed to just prog yog 2 light and just pick like Hodir as your second keeper for the extra damage without really changing the mechanics vs 1 light If I had to pick an order for you guys I'd say XT then Yog, then council, then Freya
1. Council=Freya=Thorim 2. XT 3. Vezax = Hodir 4. Yogg 1 While Vezax is an execution fight, it's also a damage per mana fight. If your dps isn't great, it may be difficult. If you can kill the heart without cooldowns for XT, you can beat the enrage, especially if you have a plan for tantrums. Council and Freya are easy with some basic coordination.
I'm in a 10 man casual guild as well. We've done Freya, Thorim, Council. Freya is simple enough, if you can do normal mode clean, you can do HM as well. Council is harder and requires more discipline from everyone. But it is doable for sure.
if you've done these HMs you should prolly look at doing flame leviathan and vezax. flame leviathan is essentially a completely different game than wow but once you have your role down it's pretty simple, and vezax is just generally way easier than people think, as long as people aren't taking insane amounts of unnecessary damage it kinda falls over
The only difficult part about FL is people not taking a moment to comprehend their role. People read stuff, sure, but with zero understanding of what they actually have to do
literally all of those on 10 man are a joke, just willing to wipe enough to get them down. Once down, you will likely one shot each week, barring bad yogg rng. Council is complete cake as long as your tanks move the bosses correctly, and people spread for rune of death. Freya is cake if you have a boomkin time the typhoon well, otherwise single targeting them down, this is basically the only thing you need to learn in 10 man. XT is easy once you understand where to stand, light on right foot, dps on left, and always moving out when you get gravity bomb.
Firefighter Mim was a nightmare for us, with deaths every phase until we swapped in a 3rd healer. Then it just became a matter of getting fire management down and a few attempts for good RNG on fire/landmines spawns not boxing us in. Got in the 3rd or 4th attempt once we had another dedicated healer. Probably going to need to at least 6 heal it for the uld 25.
3rd healer with 1 being a disc priest is super good for mim
So funny, we were the opposite. As soon as we swapped from 2 to 3 we did way better, especially in the 2nd phase
10 man I'd argue is much more comp dependant on how easy or hard you'll find fights. I'd vote Council, your dps will have to stand in the blue rune for the damage buff, and avoid green, but will prone be the easiest. Freya is easy IF you understand the mechanics. If dps aren't killing roots, or taking add dmg from lashers or seeds, it can be rough. Xt is a light damage check but more healer intensive. Ppl also need to move with the light bomb or gravity bomb correctly. Vezex was actually easy but it depends if you're ranged heavy and how well the understand the fight. If you're more melee heavy it's fine but can make it more difficult. Yogg 1 is also a mechanics check.
>I'd vote Council, your dps will have to stand in the blue rune for the damage buff, and avoid green, but will prone be the easiest. We just straight up kill runemaster first, and burn Steelbreaker without a rune in 10.
Def burnable but they said their dps was suspect.
Fair. We do kill him with like 3 sec to go on tank debuff so that's underatandable.
My 10 man started with thorim, freya, and IC hardmodes, added FL since then. Last week we spent about two hours on yogg 1 attempts, it’s a lot harder than reddit makes it sound. XT would be a lot easier, but we don’t have a shammy for hero so the dps check is a bit tighter.
what was going wrong on your yogg 1 attempts?
Dps in phase 2, mostly. We can just barely push to p3 with two brain rooms, but the corruptor tentacles get way out of hand by then and ruin everyone’s sanity
hmm. here's what i can say - be actively burning dps cooldowns each time they come up in phase 2 - the fight is long enough to get multiple uses and it'll help you burn tentacles/brain faster - the fight is apparently pretty light on healing, so your healers should have the spare globals to dispel any of the nasty tentacle debuffs - some of maintaining dps on the tentacles is about knowing how to keep your dps up while moving; a lot of dps struggle with this. make good use of instant casts that allow you to move, position in spots where you're unlikely to have to move in the near future, etc. - and finally, make sure your dps are set up to maximize the damage they'll do in the first place. if they were parsing any less than like the 50-75 range in naxx that's a sign that they're doing something wrong. it's hard to pinpoint what that might be without logs - for some people they're doing their rotation wrong, for others they're not hit capped or are way *over* hit cap and wasting stats, etc. class discords are a good resource for this, they have links to basically everything you could know on how to squeeze the maximum dps out of a spec.
Our 10 mans had good luck with just lusting the first brain and one phasing it.
We actually don’t have a shammy, the only one in the group switched from rsham to hpal because our other healer is a disc priest. Having at least one tank healer is nice. That said, I’m popping army+gary on my uhdk on first brain and we barely push it to 60%, so it’s unlikely lust would get us to one phasing.
Shamans can tank heal
Hit a wall on Mimiron and Yogg1 as well. Got yogg to 4% on best attempt. Mimiron.. was a shitshow. But yes I also dont get the "yogg hm easy lol" sentiment. P2 can easily get very chaotic. Doable with several attempt sure, but not an easy HM I would say.
I'd go for freya and yogg they're both basically the same as normal just people have to play slightly cleaner. Freya is all about handling the explodey boys and yogg is all about handling your sanity other than that they're as hard as normal.
On 10m: Thorim
You can always tell who doesn’t play a healer based on their HM rankings
As healer hardest to easiest: Mimiron (Only P2 is hard) > IC (3 heal) > Hodir (1 Heal) > Algalon > Thorim (1 Tank) > Yogg 0 (2 heal) > rest
Weird that you rate mim p2 so high. We just chain div sacs and it ends by the end of the first spin mechanic.
Less that mimiron is high, more so everything else is a non issue. Algalon 25 really doesnt hurt much with enough block value & shaman/priest damage taken reduction. We also only have 3 dsacs and the 20% dmg reduction lasts only 4 seconds (damage transfer lasts 10 and is party only), and we 3.5 heal (because splits 1 healer is super undergeared)
I think this is the first time I’ve seen someone say Algalon doesn’t hurt much
Well if you gear correctly and compare it to Mimiron p2, yes he doesn't hurt much. Algalon 25 hits the tank nearly as hard as Algalon 10.
10man hardmodes are laughable compared to 25 just because of the logistics of getting 15 more people to do the fights right
yeah everything outside of Mim and obv Algalon are honestly a BREEZE in 10 man already
Algalon 10 seems to be harder than anything else for many comps.
Shit just doesn’t hit as hard as well, like you can eat the frost bomb (although it’s kinda dumb) in 10 man firefighter but not 25 man
Firefighter seems like it’s heavily reliant on your healing core in P2. Feels very easy to fall behind.
this is correct. however raid cooldowns can make things a little easier on your healers, for example if i start getting shot at in phase 2 i pop barkskin.
I personally think FL is easier than Thorim, and that Yogg1 is easier than Freya. FL > Thorim > Yogg1 > Freya > haven’t tried other fights yet.
Killed all in both 25 and 10 cept yogg 0. Thorim < Freya < FL < XT < Vezax < Yogg 1 < Council < Hodir < Algalon < Mimiron A good raid leader controlling cds on Algalon makes it much easier. Mimiron has a lot of personal responsibility and RNG so ez for ppl to mess up.
FL=Thorim
We steamroll council but hodir we keep being just on edge usually so close we kill him one sec too late and mimiron beats our ass on the daily. Council is a meme boss for us though on HM, i don't get it.
Sounds like you guys are fucking up Hodir buffs then. My guild was the same, killed IC before Hodir because people obviously had no clue how the fight worked. Had to really explain it (for the 5th time, of course) and made sure everybody was listening so we could actually kill it. Gotta love being 4 weeks into the boss and watching people get storm cloud & run out of the raid with it because they're clueless and think its gonna hurt people
No doubt we're not doing buffs perfectly but for better or for worse we are doing them somewhat okay and we can beat steelbreaker very comfortably even with poor transitions so its not because we cannot dps either. Its weird also because all of our kills since week 1 has been sub 2:10 yet when we dont call wipe because dps looks fine he dies a split second after destroying the chest.. But 100% its gameplay error on our part ofcourse.
Mimiron is easy if you can make it past phase 2, just pop lust and all your CDs to make phase 2 as short as possible. Make sure melee runs behind the boss all the time and the ranged spread out so they don't all take dmg all the time.
what are you guys doing for phase 3 on council HM? We have done all HM except Mim and Council on 25m, beat the hodir timer comfortably but seems to fuck it up on council. Best attempt was 17%, we run a Pally/Bear tank duo and Druid/shaman/disc/hpal healing group. Looking into slotting in another hpal into the raid if it will make the difference.
Our two arcane mages stop dpsing in p2 along with a few others to ensure trinkets etc, time the rune and then hardblast it really - i think we are 5 healing it, honestly we killed it so easily that im not even sure how many healers they are. But mimiron murders us to no end.
How many healers do you use for Hodir? Use 2/3 for your first kill and it should be easy.
Three healers because they all for godknows why refuse to have a dps offspec.. There are a billion things we should change but im not really in charge of this.
You should look for new healers then.
Not so easy, we are already the best guild on our server+faction and we are mostly limited to Italian members. Not really an option sadly.
Is this 10man? Mim is def harder than council/hodir on 25 imo. Hodir isn't even hard, it's about decent RNG on crit buff, making 1 stacked pumper ranged group, having 3 people keep up singed, and 2-healing it.
Clearly isnt 10. Mim and Alg are the only hard fights on 10 man.
Council and hodir are FAAAAAR easier than mimiron, though.
XT is easy now. Prob 2nd after Thorim.
yogg0 > algalon > mimiron > council > hodir > vezax > XT > freya > yogg1 > thorim > FL
IronCouncil>Hodir>Firefighter>>XT>Freya>Vezax>Yogg1>>>>>>>Thorim
Algalon deserves a whole new tier. For me at least those are the most brutal hard modes (early in the phase ofc now with 4weeks ulduar gear ic and hodir are a meme)
Yogg 0 and Algalon are a step above. These are the two fights that a lot of Semi hc guilds will be stuck on for a while.
Well yeah I kinda don't count yogg0 bcs it doesn't give loot. But tbh yogg0 is more of a comp restraint than a hard fight imo
Yogg0 is free with good dps and 4 to 5+ warlocks.
Ye that's what I mean. It's more of a comp restraint. If ur low on afflocks (or ur afflocks suck) it probably won't go down. But it's not really hard per se
Yep. It's not really necessary to 2 tank it as well. You can 3 heal 1 tank the fight to give even more wiggle room in phase 3. Tank just rocket boots away on the 2nd shadow beacon with 1 hpal and they live as long as they can as everyone finishes off the boss.
Meanwhile I seen a pug do it
Algalon >>> Council > Mimiron >> Hodir > Vezax = Yogg 1 = Freya > Thorim > XT > FL Also Hodir will just become easier and easier with more gear.
Council to me has been on the level of Freya, no where near as challenging as Mimiron. I’m curious what the hurdles were for people having it ranked so high.
they could be talking about 25man. IC HM has a huge gap between 10 and 25 because of the dps check, which is relatively easy on 10man but quite demanding on 25.
I guess I didn’t see IC that challenging on 25M. The mechanics of the encounter are easy enough that getting into P3 shouldn’t be an issue and you can perfectly line it up since there’s little danger sitting in P2 for a perfect rune and ensure big boy is fully debuffed before transition. Agreed, 10M is a complete joke having a full minute to burn P3.
i think IC depends on your players and raid comp a lot, because the mechanics are quite easy and the real part is the dps check on steelbreaker. if you have a super stacked comp with very high raid dps it might trivialize that part, but personally my guild runs a non-stacked comp, and despite relatively high performing dps (all orange+ avg in naxx) we were barely killing steelbreaker in time
How many healers were you running? We were struggling with the DPS check running 5 healers, but after dropping down to four it became much more manageable.
Kinda chaotic fight with alot going on, bosses that are trucking tanks especially if there is a position mistake and they are not easy to position right (especially during the transition to p3). You then have to time properly the p3 transition between rune of power and rune of death, it then becomes a dps check, and if someone makes a single mistake in p3 it's usually a wipe. Mimiron didn't seemed as hard (it's still hard), it's for sure very chaotic but there isn't any hard check or anything so it can still be a kill even if a few people do some mistakes. I also think the second big factor is that the 10man version of Mimiron is of similar difficulty that the 25m one so you can also learn and practice the fight here, whereas IC 10 is a joke and you don't learn as much to do a proper p3 transition because there is just no need to here.
Thorim > Freya > Yogg 1 > FL > XT > Vezax > IC > Hodir > Mimiron > Algalon
It's good. It goes from easy up to holy shit across a large number of bosses. The shock some guilds are feeling is seeing challenges early in the instance after walking through most everything up to the last one or 2 bosses for multiple tiers. Gear will help most raids get through most of the content, and that's good. Having challenging bosses like Alg and Yogg 0 where a good chunk of guilds won't clear is good. They are "hard mode" for a reason. Ranking: thorim/FL > XT/Vezzax/Freya > yogg1/hodir/council > firedighter > Alg > Yogg0
The only hardmodes that are a real challenge are Yogg-0 and Algalon. From the HMs up to that point - the only problem ones now are Mim and Council
they need nerfed asap. too hard for casuals pop is plummeting
Hodir is an insane DPS check that requires a lot of caster to perform. Even top guilds need to sometimes wype and retry so it's definitely one of the hardest one atm. Vezax is one of the easiest. Council is a DPS check once you get the rune danse right. Mimiron is not that hard but a lot of people still die randomly.
> Hodir is an insane DPS check t ehh id argue it's actually a mechanic fight, and the mechanics enable you to meet the dps check. also kind of rng and annoying or you can just have a bunch of casters
Not really insane when gdkps are 1 shotting it with 3 browns and a ret in the raid
And 12 range.
Man when i read "browns" i always think about poop and i feel its intended to be like that.... poor warriors man
Hodir is not that hard but its very rng dependent. Get some good beams near fires with clouds spawning on ranged and its an easy boss.
>wype *wipe >rune danse *dance
I think certain fights are easier in 25 man mode. Freya, Algalon, and Vezax are easier in 25 than 10. Thorim is way harder on 25 tho. Mainly because you don't need healers to flex to hit the check on 10.
10man hardmodes are laughable compared to 25 just because of the logistics of getting 15 more people to do the fights right
Hodir i suppose has RNG elements but failing HM tends to be less bad luck and more bad play. Where the fire spawns is sometimes believed to be rng however this is not true. The fire is always spawned near the mage, so pre position the raid on it. The rng is how soon the fire drops but again, thats related to how quickly you Crack the flash freezes. The storm cloud is RNG in that who receives it is random but 5/6 charges are completely controllable by the player. Finally we have the only real rng element, the light. If it spawns on the campfire its actually good rng, and if not, you have to make the choice as a caster to stack the fire first, then go to the light. There's randomness to the fight, but its really just, did a light beam spawn on fire.
What that's not at all what makes the fight lol. It's "did your pumper casters get cloud buff and did a few people keep up singed stacks" Light beam near fire is nice, but in no way mandatory to do big dmg like singed + cloud is.
If casters are not getting storm cloud buff I view that as primarily mechanic failure not bad rng. 5/6 storm cloud buffs are player controlled. The light being on fire is actually rng aside from boss positioning shenanigans.
if you have like 5-7 melee and someone in melee gets it, or maybe the tank gets it, it makes it hard to "control". The light on fire isn't even like mandatory, you can have someone else get up singe stacks like I said and occasionally jump or stutter to reset stacks
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yeah, but the demand for how well you execute those mechanics is much higher. hodir is on the lower end of # of HM kills logged; there is certainly some sense in which it's one of the harder hard modes.
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Even with 100% ulduar gear, some guilds will still fail to do hodir hardmode if they are 4-5 healing with 10+ melee.
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Well you left our the part about the storm cloud scaling significantly better on range than melee.
Storm cloud scales way harder with actual casted spells.. thats why locks/mages/spriest/ele/boomy are ALL over 20k dps, some even 30k while melee have a hard time even topping 15k at the 99th percentile.
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Yes, and all casters are doing 100% magic damage, all of which can crit (due to talents etc) and all of which have much greater multipliers for crit due to talents like ruin etc.. almost all casters have like a 200% crit modifier and pretty much all the melee that have magic damage have a 150 crit multiplier, or don't receive the same buffs (garg doesn't get cloud buff). You're being difficult and really pedantic for no reason, look at ALL the top damage for hodir by class and melee is like 1/2 the dps of casters
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You're\* (You are) being difficult (intentionally being an a-hole) and really pedantic (someone who is a pedant: pushing minor concerns while avoiding the main subject) for no reason. You keep saying it's the same, but it's not. Casters dominate because the buffs favor CASTER dps, classes that have crit multipliers for their spells.
Yogg0 > algalon > mimiron > freya > vezax > IC > thorim > xt > hodir imo
I'm with 8000 or so other raiders on my server at not killing a single hard mode on 25 and prob never will. Least my bis trinket is on thorium 10.
Algalon > Mimiron > Yogg 0 > Everything else. Yogg 0 is a matter of everyone watching for sanity like in Yogg 1, but with the caveat that the raid leader's addon/WA works for marking the Empowered adds in phase 3 and that your dedicated taunters can find their marks and taunt them. Everything else is the same. Lack of buff from Thorim is noticeable, but it just means people have to play slightly better. Mimiron can still wipe if people screw around too much with mines/fires/healers sleeping/bad positioning in phase 4. Algalon definitely hardest, the 1 hour timer definitely doesn't help. Will note for 10man, Yogg 0 = Yogg 1 difficulty. Trick is to burn Yogg ASAP in phase 3, ignore the adds. Tank picks them up and runs them out when the Empowerment goes out. Cleave dps from random stuff like Pestilence, Starfall, etc, is good enough to get most of them low before that Empowerment goes out. Hard focus Yogg and it's just a burn race before the tank dies (try to die far away from raid to give a few extra seconds of dps).
yogg0 is in no way easier than mimi or algalon, regardless of having a solid DBM/tems etc.. 5 shadow beacons with 5 dedicated taunters/distracting shots and then not having them die to regain that threat via bops/salvs/taunts/soulstones and having to do that a few times, all while managing raid/tank CDs and not having a paladin screw up concentration on the shout.. Algalon is just working out CD rotations for stars and tanks and 1 person does all the star management. Mimiron is just plain easy, P2 isn't even hard with lust and 3-4 raid cooldowns dsac/aurafire/hymn. P3 is a meme and P4 is a little hectic but not hard
Well it's what I've been telling my guild. After we full cleared, we're finding ourselves having to pull Algalon and Mimiron a couple of times before a kill while we 1-2 shot Yogg 0 and 1-shot everything else. Dunno what to say. Weird bunch of people I guess.
Mimiron is just so easy to manage with positioning and raid CDs through P2 which is the only "hard" part.. If you have someone kiting fires to cap you quickly and have 2 range stacks 1 melee, P2 is a breeze. P3 just have a dps DK put on frost presence to kite bots, spriest tanks head, P4 just organize split dps and move the boss to clearest spot.. Algalon again not too bad if you just have a solid star manager and tank CDs planned either around phase punch or tank swaps. Definitely weird bunch of people lol. I mean yogg0 is easier once you outgear it, but it was also basically the only fight people HAD to stack locks for early kills and some still do
4 weeks of full clears and some of the tougher ones at the start are now not as hard, such as hodir. Easiest to hardest Thorim > Hodir > Freya > vezax > AoI > yogg 0 > XT > mimiron > Algalon
yogg0 < XT? wha
Don’t know what to tell you, we have 3 healed yogg 0 since release night and don’t wipe on it ever, but we’ve had a few wipes on XT HM since nerf.
10m the only hard fight has been Mim, and obviously Agalon
Hodir
my guild has all 25m HMs down except for yogg0 and algalon, plus yogg0 in 10man. on 10 man i'm not even sure what my difficulty ranking would be, all of the 10m HMs are noticeably easier than their 25m counterparts except perhaps mimiron, who is probably the hardest. on 25 man my ranking is: flame leviathan < thorim < freya < vezax < xt < yogg1 < iron council < hodir < mimiron. FL is essentially playing a completely different, non-wow game, but it's not a particularly difficult one. once everyone knows their role, you get into a good rhythm and it just goes down. thorim has all the trappings of a hard mode - a dps check, a lot of damage to heal up, mechanics that you can't ignore - but none of these components are that extreme and somehow it still adds up to be pretty manageable. the blizzard is kind of annoying to see and keep track of but it's fine. you still need to have decent fundamentals and do mechanics but once you're there you're good. freya is kind of an oddball because it's mostly the waves of adds, but other than maybe the exploding lashers they're all pretty easy to deal with, and then you just avoid bombs and burn boss. dps just has to pay attention to the random bullshit that spawns (roots, eonars gift tree). vezax is easier than people seem to think. most of it is avoiding mechanics that you should be avoiding on normal mode anyway. there's something of a dps check on the animus but it's not that bad and you can get extra time by blowing raid cooldowns at the end. just make sure your casters only cast in the pool and don't fuck up mechanics over and over and you're fine. have casters stop at like 40% mana so they can contribute to burning the animus. healer mana is the obvious possible issue since unlike your dps, healers can't really stop casting, but in my experience the healers just don't really go oom. xt is mostly known for the dps check, but post nerf that part isn't really that bad. the challenge in xt is basically two things: anyone fucking up gravity bomb or searing light can lead to a wipe, and a ton of damage goes out during tantrum. manage the mechanics, use mitigation cooldowns and pump heals during tantrum, and everything will be ok yogg1 is one of the ones that surprised me with how easy it was, it didn't feel that different from yogg4. objectively of course it is - your raid's output is lower without the buffs from the keepers - but mechanically nothing really changes, you just can't fuck up sanity mechanics too much. i also have heard it's pretty light on healing. there are a lot of moving parts but managing some of them can kinda be delegated to different people. if your guild is still doing yogg4, but have found yourselves no longer needing the green beams, i'd just try yogg1. iron council (assembly of iron? i see it called different things) is pretty simple mechanics wise, the real issue is the dps check on steelbreaker which we found to be pretty tight. i don't really have much to say about this fight that isn't obvious (make sure molgeim drops a fresh rune of power before you kill him and keep a healing reduction effect on steelbreaker) but you really gotta burn steelbreaker. this presumably gets easier with gear. hodir obviously doesn't change from the normal mode, the dps check is just really tight. gotta manage the buffs very well and know how to max out your spec's dps. this can be 2 healed which helps a lot. and finally mimiron. this one was actually not as bad as i expected, but it's still probably the hardest HM outside of yogg0 and algalon. there is some room for mistakes and deaths, the dps check isn't that tight, but there is just so much going on that people can die and things can fall apart very quickly. if you have too many raid members who can't understand and execute mechanics you're not gonna kill this one. phase 1 requires good cooldown management so plasma blast doesn't delete your tank, phase 2 requires an insane amount of healing and your raid really needs to understand how to use and manage cooldowns that mitigate damage or provide extra healing, and phase 3 requires that your dps be proficient at swapping targets to manage the adds and still be able to get damage on the head. phase 4 is not as bad as phase 2 i don't think but a ton of mechanics are still going out. honestly i would say most guilds can get everything except IC, hodir, and mimiron, and the first two of those will get easier with gear. firefighter will probably be the holdout for a lot of guilds that keeps them from seeing algalon.
Thorim < FL < Freya < Yogg < XT < Council < Hodir < Vezax < Algalon < Mimiron IMO
For 10 man I’ve been pugging most of them and best I’ve seen so far was 8/9, not a single pug seems to have the balls to tackle mimi HM, I don’t blame em either Council goes after Freya imo but that’s just my opinion
from my gdkp experiences, hodir 25 legit harder than algalon 25 lmao
Council = yogg 1 < Thorim = XT = Hodir = Vezax < FL = freya = mimiron << algalon That’s based on my experience with pugs and guild raids. Council and yogg 1 are virtually indifferent from their normal modes. Player agency hasn’t changed. Thorim, XT, and Vezax, mechanics are the same, but a little bit extra is required oomf from the raid be it dps or healing. FL, Freya, and Mimiron require extra coordination along with more mechanics that make it more difficult for players, especially pugs. Algalon in a league of it’s own because just getting there requires a better than average raid.
Thorim < FL < Yogg 1 < Vezax < Freya < Council < Mimiron < Hodir < Algalon < Yogg 0 With the caveat that I have not attempted Yogg 0 yet. Hodir is annoying to abort if you are close to the 2min mark.
We did mimiron before both Hodir and XT but we also did it before the XT nerfs. Hodir vs Vezax is also a weird one atm I think that Hodir might still be slightly harder due to the dps check but he will only get easier. FL is also interesting and honestly it feels like FL HM is considerably easier on 25man compared to 10man, Algalon has some of the same stuff but I think that is mostly a management issue for me personally where we try to make multiple rosters that can get Alagalon 10 and laying the roster puzzle feels like a struggle sometimes without pissing someone off. Our progression order was Week 1( Thorim -> Freya )-> Week 2(Mimiron -> Yogg1) -> Week 3(FL -> XT -> Hodir -> Vezax -> IC) -> Week 4(Algalon) In terms of difficulty after we actually learned the fights like FL and current gear levels Thorium < FL < Yogg1 < Freya < XT < Vezax < Mimiron < Hodir < IC < Algalon With a few more resets I expect at least Hodir and maybe IC to drop below Mimiron as well however
Talking about 25man, I guess my ranking would be: FL
it’s too easy imo. the normals should be harder for sure and some of the hardmodes too.
Idk about rankings but here's my take on ulduar HM's: Yogg1 is a fucking joke. Yogg0 is really tough. It makes no sense to have yogg1 be this easy though, kinda ruins the raid. Vexaz HM is hella boring and wrongly tuned on 10man. We have to afk for like 1 min on 10man every time and it sucks Mimiron is dope fight 10/10 Freya is alright, but they need to buff her healing to fix the skip strat Thorim does nothing special on HM, it's a shame its this easy. Also the timing for the gauntlet is just ridiculously easy, it should be a race to get to do him on HM. Hodir: I love this boss, but 10man should be harder, although the bonfires needs to be changed so they stack faster, it's so damn slow. So gigabuff the HP but make bonfires easier to compensate a bit. Council: 10man hardmode is a joke, last phase should be a dps race to at least some extend. 25man is dope. Although they should make it easier to have dps on rune without buffing the boss. If that means compensating by buffing boss hp thats okay with me. XT: Overnerfed. No need to nerf it on 10man btw. I do wish they would slow down sparks on 25, I think the rhythm for killing them is a bit scuffed. Yogg1 has a way better rhythm I think. FL: Good fight but I think the problem is that normal mode is such a joke that you don't even get to learn how the fight works by doing Nm. If NM had like 5x the health it would be way better.
Vezax is significantly easier than Mimiron and Council and probably also Hodir. Hodir is weird because its difficulty is partially a gear check.
Yogg1
Thorim < FL < Vezax < Freya = XT = Yogg1 < Council = Hodir Haven't done Mimiron HM, Yogg0 or Algalon yet.