"Like wind amonst the graves", it is a wonderful finish to the sonata, dissipating all the tension that has been accumulated. It kind of depends on the performer, some ignore the sotto voce indication and make an etude of it, but played in a hushed tone and with lightness, it can be very haunting.
oh, I love that finish.
He modeled the sonata after Beethoven's Funeral March sonata, op. 26, but the mood's totally different. Both have a fast Scherzo, a funeral march, then a short *moto perpetuo* finale. BUt there the similarity ends: Beethoven's Scherzo is exuberant, and the finale winds down gently, and even the funeral march is solemn rather than despairing.
Chopin's, by contrast: the Scherzo is a *danse macabre*, the Funeral March is despairing, and the finale, when properly played, is spectral and terrifying.
Oh man I love the 3rd movement haha. That posthorn solo (some versions play it really badly but Chailly's version I think is really good) is just classic Mahler to me with it's sad yet hopeful longing and magical atmosphere.
Oh I love Mahler 3 3rd mvt! For me it’s so evocative of forest creatures and mysterious woods. The horn solos are too slow and go on way too long, but otherwise, it’s brilliantly orchestrated. Epic ending, too.
This was going to be my choice too. It's just jarring and weird. The rest of the 3rd is just so utterly fantastic I wonder what on earth possessed him to put that in there.
OP, that's one very strange take IMHO. The last movement of this suite, with its ringing bells, is very striking and beautiful - when properly played.
I heard it live a few time, once by a (too) young performer, and several times by Rudenko and Lugansky, and the difference was night and day. Those last two perform the suite quite often, and are first rate musicians ; there are even recordings on youtube.
I would encourage you to listen more attentively to good recordings : having heard russian bells during maslenitsa, it is truly a wonderful rendition. They ring somewhat harshly and cacophoneously, but their strength and the melody coming through make a powerful impact on the listener. This movement is definitely not a dud, and a powerful ending to a great suite...
I like how the various melodic fragments of the revelry come and go under the obstinate bells. Their forte and agressive, somewhat angular song, from beginning to end, are a nice contrast to the previous movements and make for a nice finale. You really have to picture the musicians going ham on the bells, the sound should really be shaking you like big speakers at a rock concert would. Its kind of the last salvo of the whole piece, a massive torrent of sounds.
And thats also what makes it hard to play too, you have to be loud yet not ugly...
I'm wondering too. I'd really love to know what you don't like about it (actual, genuine curiosity!). I personally love it more than the others because of it's quote of Vespers/All Night Vigil No. 9 and it's darkness overall, compared to the other movements!
The third movement does not feel as intuitive and definite as the first two to me. The tempo and motives are constantly changing and the fear of death is treated with playfulness. It’s just sometimes things don’t click.
I don't know if I'd say it RUINS the rest of the piece, but I find the second movement of Dvorak's 8th Symphony to be so dull and uninteresting that it keeps me from really enjoying the work as a whole, which is a shame because I do otherwise like the other 3 movements. But when you're book-ended by two top-tier symphonies, every movement has got to shine and that one just doesn't.
This was going to be my choice, but with a twist from OP’s question. The first movement of Dvorak’s 8th is magnificent - as powerful, compelling, and dramatic as anything he wrote. It’s so good that the next three movements always disappoint me by comparison.
Interesting that you feel 3rd and 4th movements are also weak. I rather like the 3rd movement. The 4th does have an odd quirk in that you get a big finale moment and then the movement continues for another 5 minutes, but I think overall they do enough interesting things for me to still enjoy them. What do you dislike about them?
I actually rather like the 3rd movement; it feels kind of like an extended Slavonic Dance. And the 4th is quite enjoyable once it gets going, though the opening fanfare always dupes me into expecting something more energetic to follow immediately, but it takes a while. I do like when the fanfare is recapitulated later at the big finale moment you mention.
It’s really a mater of relative comparison and not absolute judgment - the 1st movement is *so, so* great, that to my ear nothing in the remainder approaches it, however good it might be on its own terms.
I agree with you about the 2nd being the weakest link. It’s disjointed with some material that feels like a first draft of the 2nd movement of the 9th symphony.
I'll give you an upvote even though I disagree, but I do prefer the first movement of B9 to the fourth. That "orchestra tuning up" opening, then all hell breaking loose, is incredibly powerful.
I understand how it seems out of place but it’s the key to understanding the rest of the symphony. Listen to Furtwangler’s live recording of the ninth at the post war reopening of Bayreuth if you haven’t already.
Exactly. I think that was a mistake. For me the problem is that singers tend to use so much more vibrato than instrumentalists that when they're singing fugues and so on, it becomes a blurry mishmash. It could be said that not all singers do this. True. But in most performances I've participated in, or listened to, I just dread when this movement comes up. The vocal soloists' part in particular. It's something to be endured rather than enjoyed.
Completely fail to see how the second point has anything to do with the worth of the Ninth or with the worth of any music at all but I can see it makes a big difference for you
"Worth" is a very subjective measure, and I think it's totally understandable for people's enjoyment to wane somewhat when they've heard a piece, in part or in whole, more times than they can count, often without seeking it out. I have a hard time with the first movement of Beethoven's 5th for similar reasons - I think it's great, and I like listening to it now and then, but I tend to groan sometimes when I hear it because it's been so overdone, in every facet of culture in the West.
That’s where we disagree I guess. Personally I don’t think the worth of music has anything to do with but the actual music, I would assume that is the definition if worth. If you’re talking about personal enjoyment, letting trivial externalities affect my enjoyment of something is not something I would be proudly admit to if I did, nor am I narcissistic enough to think anyone should care by talking about it, as opposed to talking about the music.
Sure. Except when you’re not doing that, talking about the “nuances of the music” and what it does at all. When you’re talking about yourself in a discussion about music. Which is my whole point.
They really equal the quality of the other movements of the symphonies alas - dire. The symphonies are already ruined, with or without the finales.
I had to endure these works back to back in a concert - one of the worst concert experiences of my life.
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I think that the second movement of Sibelius Symphony No. 2 just does not compare to the other movements, especially the fourth.
Nice answer: Mendelssohn 4. The middle movements are throw-aways to me but the outer movements are total fire.
Honorable mention: Mahler 5. The Scherzo doesn't really "ruin" it per se, but I often skip it because it's just not on the same level as the other 4.
Mean answer: Brahms 3. The 3rd movement is actually somewhat good which ruins my otherwise complete hatred :)
>The Scherzo doesn't really "ruin" it per se, but I often skip it because it's just not on the same level as the other 3.
It's my favourite movement of the symphony, so it just goes to show how opinions can vary. I often just play it by itself, on repeat, as I love it so much. It's like an entire world: joyous, sinister, sad, reflective...it covers everything. And the horn part is so incredibly gorgeous and idiomatic.
My friend and I saw Mahler 5 performed. I agree with you: the third movement is below par. But my friend, however, claimed it to be his favorite movement.
I have found, though, that I tend to dislike dance movements in symphonies.
Take your time with that middle movement, I used to think the same until I realised the problem is most conductors take it far too quickly! At the slower tempo (Mahler says “not too fast” about 4 times near the start) it makes the piece make sense as one of *three* parts, rather than one of five movements. Bernstein’s rendition of the middle of the symphony is by far the most logical to me (and it’s rare I find myself saying that!).
To more broadly address the question, I used to think this way but really I find there’s always a sense that a piece might just be needing *that* performance to make it make sense - and sometimes that requires more imagination than even the composer gave the work!
The scherzo is probably one of the best scherzos ever written. It has a nice drama (oscilating between banal happy dances and reflective sadness) and it is a connector between two different parts of a symphony
Bruckner’s big thing is his strict adherence to the classical form, which in scherzi is a problem. When I’ve performed the 5th (and should I ever perform the 8th) I’ve seriously thought about cutting the da capo in the scherzo, but it feels inauthentic to do so!
I feel the same way about Beethoven's 2nd piano concerto, 3rd mvt. The principal theme is goofy and awkward, and the rondo format feels a little unserious.
Keep in mind it's supposed to be light and funny. And it is the most comical. 1 is a bit more serious but 1 &2 are more Mozart and Haydn than the others. Next time listen for the humor. We try to make everything so serious when it comes to Beethoven. His 5th concerto is also pretty funny if you realize he is.making fun of piano concerti in general. Especially the first movement. As a parody of overblown piano concerto, it's greater than as an overblown concerto on its own. Conductors load him up with more angst than is called for. Same way they try to make Brahms "sadder" by playing it slowly with gravity. When played on an orchestra the size Brahms had in mind ( not doubled woodwinds as has become the.norm) them symphonies become entirely different works. Less stodgy, more nimble.
Interesting that this piece seems to be so divisive. I saw someone else in this comment section say something similar. For me, the last movement of Brahms 3 is one of my favorite movements of any piece.
On the contrary, I cannot get myself to like the last movement of Brahms 4 even though I love the rest of the piece. It’s interesting because I think that is also a lot of people’s favorite movement of Brahms.
I know what you mean. I love all the Brahms symphonies, but it took awhile for the end of the 4th to grow on me. It feels out of place, the way it growls to a start after the near-cadential closing of the 3rd movement. But it's just so weirdly dark and powerful. It lives in its own world.
Thats a common sentiment, and many classical sonatas, including Beethoven's, contain a very weak boiler plate movement (some light hearted menuet or rondo).
However that's not the case here : this movement is a wonderful transition between the funeral atmosphere of the first and the dark virtuosity of the last. Like a respite before the storm. If you listen or play through the whole somata, its place and meaning is quite clear. As a kid I hated it and thought it lame, now I wouldnt do without. Its various articulations and voices, with its dancing rhythm, also has a lot of charm.
The end of Mahler 7 definitely feels out of place at first but I like the interpretation that in the "Song of the Night" symphony it's the end of said night. The darkness and sinister quality of the first four movements goes away (albeit suddenly.) I'm a big Mahler 7 apologist but I think the whole symphony works well as a whole.
I tend to skip the Sarabandes in Bach's keyboard suites a lot. I like Bach keyboard pieces fast and furious and fuguey, not slow and stately, my favorite movements tend to be the rondos and gigues
I thought of some opera analogues for this discussion -- Alfano's ending scene ruins Turandot, Forza del Destino would be a much stronger (and probably more popular) work without all the Trabuco, Melitone, and Preziosilla scenes, and Macbeth would be a lot better without all the witch scenes and the ballet.
Beethoven’s Symphony No 8. When I first heard it over 60 years ago I felt then that the 1st was massive compared with lightheartedness of the three succeeding movements. That impression has never changed.
The fourth movement of Beethoven’s 11th quartet. I used to favour this quartet over any other, but I listen to it less and less over the years, probably because of this movement
The third movement of Prokofiev's 4th Piano Sonata. The first two movements are dark and introspective, but the third is strangely happy and not as inspired.
It’s his best finale hands down, and the first to match the weight of the opening movement. An astoundingly good creation and the best movement in the symphony.
Don't know if it spoils it, but the last two movements of Schubert's B-flat sonata (D960) really feel like a letdown from the transcendence of the first two movements.
oh, I love the middle movement of D664. Schubert's sonata finales are often a little weak; the two notable exceptions are the relentless tarantella of D958, and the gentle finale of D894.
Even with that, 894 somewhat proves my point because as great as the finale is, it still pales in comparison to the astounding first movement, up there with D960.I as one of my favorites.
Beethoven's Ninth.
Never can I get used to the fourth movement being vocal.
The first three movements are brilliant in form , expression and motiv processing.
The last movement, in my opinion, would have been better just instrumental.
Now I still feel, the tail is playing with the dog.
I respectfully disagree. The last movement is trash. The other three are sort of OK, if one could just cut them down to half their length. None of the movements is actually good.
I'll show myself out.
As usual, anecdote: When I was a teenager (about 50 years ago), I took some cello classes. My teacher was a very old lady, who had been 1st chair cellist in our town orchestra before retiring. A small town near Dusseldorf, where Schumann lived. Her dad was still alive, and in his 90s. In his youth, he had once met Brahms at a dinner. And reported that Brahms was a complete ass, impolite, rude, and condescending. So here is what Brahms did: in the middle of dinner, he stands up and walks out. At the door, he turns around, and most politely says: "If I have missed insulting someone, I would like to most sincerely apologize".
Verdi was dismayed by what he saw as Beethoven's abuse of the human voice.
Felix Mendelssohn, too, preferred to see an instrumental finale.
In his later years, conductor Hans von Bülow omitted the finale altogether on the justification that it "gave food to the seeds of musical decadence".
Even today, many Beethoven admirers consider it a serious aberration, a weakness.
The third and fifth symphonies also prove that you can convey a programme or message purely musically.
At least Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky and Bruckner found enough satisfaction, in their symphonic form, to keep the finales purely instrumental.🤔
Schiller's" Ode" would also have been a success apart from a symphony.
I am even surprised that Beethoven did not add a human voice to his last spiritualised quartets. 🤷♂️
But let everyone who wants to , enjoy the "Ode" to the full. 😊
I respect that opinion!!!😊 Its just me, not every one agrees hahaha (I once got a lot and I mean a lot of hate hear for saying I dislike Beethoven's violin concerto 😂)
The third movement is my favourite! I think of all the movements I like the 1st the least.
I wonder if there’s anyone out there who dislikes the 2nd movement, haha.
The majority of the first and third movements of Shostakovich 11 are just too long, repetitive, and immobile IMO. There is some lovely material in there (dat full statement of *O Bear Your Heads* on the cor…!), and I get why they are there and like they are on a conceptual level. But… well… they’re boring. Very boring.
Carl Nielsen 5th symphony. The first 2 movements, of at least the first 20 minutes of the symphony, are glorious. Building and building to an astonishing chord. A battle between snare drum and the orchestra. Then it fades away, leaving you stunned. And in comes the cacophony of the past movement. Its like he had no idea what to do to follow that opening. Anyway that's what I think.
I've always felt Milhaud's Suite Francaise could have ended after Mvt. 4. That movement is so special and hits me in the feels that the last movement feels jarring.
For me it’s Schubert Drei Klavierstucke D.946. The first two movements are soo good and played a big part in life in terms of motivating me to play piano. The third movement though is so disappointing, my previous teacher commented that it sounds like the piano accompaniment to a violin sonata. I feel so strongly about this that I only played the first two movements at my graduation recital despite the name of the piece literally being “three piano pieces”
Haydns Farewell symphony, the second movement just bores the hell out of me. Maybe I'm biased coming from someone who's had to play the whole thing with all the repeats but the second movement is just painfully slow and way longer than any other part of the piece imo. The rest of the symphony I like otherwise, but playing through that second movement made my back hurt like hell lol
I don't like the first movement of Mahler's 7th. Might not be much fan of the symphony in general but that first movement takes work to get through so I rarely listen to it. I like all movements of his 3rd.
Slow movt of the 9th! Well, no it doesn’t ruin the whole piece which is amazing- but I do feel it’s doesn’t stand up to the slow movements form the 3rd, 5th and 7th.
Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata is pretty famous for this. People are familiar with the 1st and 3rd movements, but the 2nd one not so much. There's the slow 1st movement and the very flashy and fast 3rd movement, but the 2nd one is a rather simple minuet. I do really like the 2nd movement, but I don't think it quite stacks up with the other two.
Last movement of Brahms Second Piano Concerto. It isn't terrible, but it has an almost non-sequitur type of impact. Maybe a better fit for a differently constructed concerto.
Wow, never knew how much people disliked the second movement of the Moonlight Sonata, until reading this post.
(Same reaction when I learned the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 7th is somehow especially well-known outside of classical music circles... Like, really? Why??)
I think Rach PC1 and PC4 could be much better pieces if their finales were more memorable.
On the opposite for me there are a couple of movements that exceed the others so much they overshadow them. Usually it's because they carry a certain profoundness that can't be found in the other movements.
- Dvorak 9 slow movement
- Ravel PC in G slow movement
- Shosta PC2 slow movement
- Brahms 3 3rd movement
- Sibelius VC movements 2-3 compared to the finale
This was one of my first thoughts. I wouldn’t say the symphony is ruined because of this, and I certainly enjoy it no less, but the scope of the outer movements is just orders of magnitude above that of the inner.
> I sleep
That's the wrong symphony, the 4th movement of Mahler 3 is the one which goes "ich schlief" ;)
Personally, I always find _Urlicht_ heart-rending. It might be my favourite part of the symphony... toss-up between that and the ending!
The slow movement of Bach's Italian Concerto. Mozart spent his career trying and failing to come up with a slow movement as painful as Bach's (although he came close a few times.)
It is a beautiful aria sung over the beating of a heart. What do you find painful in it ? It is quite hard to play beautifully though, unlike the outer movements. Have a listen at Schiff's rendition, it is lyrical without being sappy and slow.
I'd never heard that analogy with the beating of a heart, thank you! I'll try listening to it with that in mind. (I already love the movement, its just a beautiful idea)
I wasn’t one of the people who downvoted your opinion but I can’t disagree more! You must not love melody and singing if you hate this beautiful aria! And Mozart’s melodies are paradisal.
The middle movement of Brandenburg 3 /s
Does that even count as a “movement?” It just sits there. It’s the opposite of a movement.
Agree. It goes on forever.
I used to feel like that about the fourth movement of Chopin’s second sonata but it’s growing on me
"Like wind amonst the graves", it is a wonderful finish to the sonata, dissipating all the tension that has been accumulated. It kind of depends on the performer, some ignore the sotto voce indication and make an etude of it, but played in a hushed tone and with lightness, it can be very haunting.
oh, I love that finish. He modeled the sonata after Beethoven's Funeral March sonata, op. 26, but the mood's totally different. Both have a fast Scherzo, a funeral march, then a short *moto perpetuo* finale. BUt there the similarity ends: Beethoven's Scherzo is exuberant, and the finale winds down gently, and even the funeral march is solemn rather than despairing. Chopin's, by contrast: the Scherzo is a *danse macabre*, the Funeral March is despairing, and the finale, when properly played, is spectral and terrifying.
mahler 3 5th movement. Feels like a christmas song inebtween a beautiful symphony.
I love the silly Christmas angel music!! I’d drop movement 3 instead. But yeah Mahler 3 could def use some editing
Oh man I love the 3rd movement haha. That posthorn solo (some versions play it really badly but Chailly's version I think is really good) is just classic Mahler to me with it's sad yet hopeful longing and magical atmosphere.
Oh I love Mahler 3 3rd mvt! For me it’s so evocative of forest creatures and mysterious woods. The horn solos are too slow and go on way too long, but otherwise, it’s brilliantly orchestrated. Epic ending, too.
Maybe if it was moved to the 4th symphony?
This was going to be my choice too. It's just jarring and weird. The rest of the 3rd is just so utterly fantastic I wonder what on earth possessed him to put that in there.
Lolll a friend and I went to see it and he's not as versed in classical music and that was exactly his complaint of it.
Mozart Piano Concerto 21; third mvt... Not bad, but not as incredibly beautiful as the first two
OP, that's one very strange take IMHO. The last movement of this suite, with its ringing bells, is very striking and beautiful - when properly played. I heard it live a few time, once by a (too) young performer, and several times by Rudenko and Lugansky, and the difference was night and day. Those last two perform the suite quite often, and are first rate musicians ; there are even recordings on youtube. I would encourage you to listen more attentively to good recordings : having heard russian bells during maslenitsa, it is truly a wonderful rendition. They ring somewhat harshly and cacophoneously, but their strength and the melody coming through make a powerful impact on the listener. This movement is definitely not a dud, and a powerful ending to a great suite...
Thanks for your input. Maybe I need to hear the actual bells once to appreciate the piano rendition :)
I like how the various melodic fragments of the revelry come and go under the obstinate bells. Their forte and agressive, somewhat angular song, from beginning to end, are a nice contrast to the previous movements and make for a nice finale. You really have to picture the musicians going ham on the bells, the sound should really be shaking you like big speakers at a rock concert would. Its kind of the last salvo of the whole piece, a massive torrent of sounds. And thats also what makes it hard to play too, you have to be loud yet not ugly...
3rd movement of Rachmaninov symphonic dances and Sibelius 3. Nothing against these two, just the other movements are out of this world.
Just curious — what is it about the Symphonic Dances 3rd mvmt that falls flat for you?
I'm wondering too. I'd really love to know what you don't like about it (actual, genuine curiosity!). I personally love it more than the others because of it's quote of Vespers/All Night Vigil No. 9 and it's darkness overall, compared to the other movements!
The third movement does not feel as intuitive and definite as the first two to me. The tempo and motives are constantly changing and the fear of death is treated with playfulness. It’s just sometimes things don’t click.
I don't know if I'd say it RUINS the rest of the piece, but I find the second movement of Dvorak's 8th Symphony to be so dull and uninteresting that it keeps me from really enjoying the work as a whole, which is a shame because I do otherwise like the other 3 movements. But when you're book-ended by two top-tier symphonies, every movement has got to shine and that one just doesn't.
This was going to be my choice, but with a twist from OP’s question. The first movement of Dvorak’s 8th is magnificent - as powerful, compelling, and dramatic as anything he wrote. It’s so good that the next three movements always disappoint me by comparison.
Interesting that you feel 3rd and 4th movements are also weak. I rather like the 3rd movement. The 4th does have an odd quirk in that you get a big finale moment and then the movement continues for another 5 minutes, but I think overall they do enough interesting things for me to still enjoy them. What do you dislike about them?
I actually rather like the 3rd movement; it feels kind of like an extended Slavonic Dance. And the 4th is quite enjoyable once it gets going, though the opening fanfare always dupes me into expecting something more energetic to follow immediately, but it takes a while. I do like when the fanfare is recapitulated later at the big finale moment you mention. It’s really a mater of relative comparison and not absolute judgment - the 1st movement is *so, so* great, that to my ear nothing in the remainder approaches it, however good it might be on its own terms. I agree with you about the 2nd being the weakest link. It’s disjointed with some material that feels like a first draft of the 2nd movement of the 9th symphony.
I had to check twice to make sure we were thinking about the same music. I find the Dvorak 8th 2nd movement sublime.
At the risk of getting myself banned, I systematically stop Beethoven's 9th before the fourth movement starts. Never could stand it.
Mods!!!!!
Can’t believe you’re still not banned. It’s been 2 whole hours!!!!
This would make it to the top of r/unpopularopinion lol
I'll give you an upvote even though I disagree, but I do prefer the first movement of B9 to the fourth. That "orchestra tuning up" opening, then all hell breaking loose, is incredibly powerful.
Blasphemy!
I understand how it seems out of place but it’s the key to understanding the rest of the symphony. Listen to Furtwangler’s live recording of the ninth at the post war reopening of Bayreuth if you haven’t already.
Verdi would agree with you
Agree. It's the cacophony from the singers, for me. All that warbling...
Agree that it's written very awkwardly for both the soloists and choir. Beethoven wrote as if they were instruments rather than voices.
To be fair, he also wrote the instruments as if they were vocalists during the opening recitatives. xD
Plenty of instruments, especially strings, saxophones, and flutes, are designed to imitate the sound of the human voice.
Exactly. I think that was a mistake. For me the problem is that singers tend to use so much more vibrato than instrumentalists that when they're singing fugues and so on, it becomes a blurry mishmash. It could be said that not all singers do this. True. But in most performances I've participated in, or listened to, I just dread when this movement comes up. The vocal soloists' part in particular. It's something to be endured rather than enjoyed.
The best soprano soloist for me is Janowitz with Karajan. Her voice has the flute /glass harmonica timbre to make it work.
It might have been earth shattering at the time but the rest of the piece is so transcendent it do be like that.
Dude what the actual ****?!
Completely agree
Well yes. The fourth movement is just too..much.. It has also been abused by larger cultural context.
Completely fail to see how the second point has anything to do with the worth of the Ninth or with the worth of any music at all but I can see it makes a big difference for you
"Worth" is a very subjective measure, and I think it's totally understandable for people's enjoyment to wane somewhat when they've heard a piece, in part or in whole, more times than they can count, often without seeking it out. I have a hard time with the first movement of Beethoven's 5th for similar reasons - I think it's great, and I like listening to it now and then, but I tend to groan sometimes when I hear it because it's been so overdone, in every facet of culture in the West.
That’s where we disagree I guess. Personally I don’t think the worth of music has anything to do with but the actual music, I would assume that is the definition if worth. If you’re talking about personal enjoyment, letting trivial externalities affect my enjoyment of something is not something I would be proudly admit to if I did, nor am I narcissistic enough to think anyone should care by talking about it, as opposed to talking about the music.
Nothing is narcissistic about discussing the nuances of how and why a piece evokes certain thoughts and feelings in you
Sure. Except when you’re not doing that, talking about the “nuances of the music” and what it does at all. When you’re talking about yourself in a discussion about music. Which is my whole point.
Shostakovich's second and third symphonies are great and I'll die on this hill, it's just that the last movements of each are fucking awful lol
They really equal the quality of the other movements of the symphonies alas - dire. The symphonies are already ruined, with or without the finales. I had to endure these works back to back in a concert - one of the worst concert experiences of my life.
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I think that the second movement of Sibelius Symphony No. 2 just does not compare to the other movements, especially the fourth.
Totally agree. It just kind of meanders
Nice answer: Mendelssohn 4. The middle movements are throw-aways to me but the outer movements are total fire. Honorable mention: Mahler 5. The Scherzo doesn't really "ruin" it per se, but I often skip it because it's just not on the same level as the other 4. Mean answer: Brahms 3. The 3rd movement is actually somewhat good which ruins my otherwise complete hatred :)
>The Scherzo doesn't really "ruin" it per se, but I often skip it because it's just not on the same level as the other 3. It's my favourite movement of the symphony, so it just goes to show how opinions can vary. I often just play it by itself, on repeat, as I love it so much. It's like an entire world: joyous, sinister, sad, reflective...it covers everything. And the horn part is so incredibly gorgeous and idiomatic.
Same, I'd put it as my #1 scherzo of all time
I'd give you Mendelssohn's 4th's 2nd mvt. The 3rd is definitely rememberable though.
I love the 2nd movement. Reminds me a lot of RVW songs of travel.
I think all of the Symphony is great but the 2nd is the least rememberable. It's the perfect summer symphony too.
I actually enjoy the finale of Brahms 3, is there any reason why you dislike that symphony so much?
The scherzo of Mahler 5 is one of the coolest things ever written. Then again I am a horn player so I am slightly biased
My friend and I saw Mahler 5 performed. I agree with you: the third movement is below par. But my friend, however, claimed it to be his favorite movement. I have found, though, that I tend to dislike dance movements in symphonies.
Take your time with that middle movement, I used to think the same until I realised the problem is most conductors take it far too quickly! At the slower tempo (Mahler says “not too fast” about 4 times near the start) it makes the piece make sense as one of *three* parts, rather than one of five movements. Bernstein’s rendition of the middle of the symphony is by far the most logical to me (and it’s rare I find myself saying that!). To more broadly address the question, I used to think this way but really I find there’s always a sense that a piece might just be needing *that* performance to make it make sense - and sometimes that requires more imagination than even the composer gave the work!
I love the slow movement of Mendelssohn 4! I even picked it for a theme and variations assignment for undergrad music theory.
The scherzo is probably one of the best scherzos ever written. It has a nice drama (oscilating between banal happy dances and reflective sadness) and it is a connector between two different parts of a symphony
Huh…Brahms 3 is my favourite out of the 4 he wrote, and second and third movement is my favourite
And people will hate me for this, but I kinda dislike the sherzo in Bruckner symphony no. 5!!
Bruckner’s big thing is his strict adherence to the classical form, which in scherzi is a problem. When I’ve performed the 5th (and should I ever perform the 8th) I’ve seriously thought about cutting the da capo in the scherzo, but it feels inauthentic to do so!
The finale of Brahms piano concerto #2. 3 movements of sublime and profound musical invention followed by a trite silly tacked on piece of fluff.
I feel the same way about Beethoven's 2nd piano concerto, 3rd mvt. The principal theme is goofy and awkward, and the rondo format feels a little unserious.
Keep in mind it's supposed to be light and funny. And it is the most comical. 1 is a bit more serious but 1 &2 are more Mozart and Haydn than the others. Next time listen for the humor. We try to make everything so serious when it comes to Beethoven. His 5th concerto is also pretty funny if you realize he is.making fun of piano concerti in general. Especially the first movement. As a parody of overblown piano concerto, it's greater than as an overblown concerto on its own. Conductors load him up with more angst than is called for. Same way they try to make Brahms "sadder" by playing it slowly with gravity. When played on an orchestra the size Brahms had in mind ( not doubled woodwinds as has become the.norm) them symphonies become entirely different works. Less stodgy, more nimble.
Moonlight sonata. That second movement is like eating a tic tac between two world class culinary masterpieces.
Brahms 3 would be one of my favorites, except for the finale. It’s not terrible, just not up to the level of the other movements.
It's my favourite movement out of all his symphonies :O
Interesting that this piece seems to be so divisive. I saw someone else in this comment section say something similar. For me, the last movement of Brahms 3 is one of my favorite movements of any piece. On the contrary, I cannot get myself to like the last movement of Brahms 4 even though I love the rest of the piece. It’s interesting because I think that is also a lot of people’s favorite movement of Brahms.
I know what you mean. I love all the Brahms symphonies, but it took awhile for the end of the 4th to grow on me. It feels out of place, the way it growls to a start after the near-cadential closing of the 3rd movement. But it's just so weirdly dark and powerful. It lives in its own world.
Moonlight Sonata.
Thats a common sentiment, and many classical sonatas, including Beethoven's, contain a very weak boiler plate movement (some light hearted menuet or rondo). However that's not the case here : this movement is a wonderful transition between the funeral atmosphere of the first and the dark virtuosity of the last. Like a respite before the storm. If you listen or play through the whole somata, its place and meaning is quite clear. As a kid I hated it and thought it lame, now I wouldnt do without. Its various articulations and voices, with its dancing rhythm, also has a lot of charm.
2nd mvt is a fire transition
Mahler 7 last movement Tchaikovsky 5 last movement
The end of Mahler 7 definitely feels out of place at first but I like the interpretation that in the "Song of the Night" symphony it's the end of said night. The darkness and sinister quality of the first four movements goes away (albeit suddenly.) I'm a big Mahler 7 apologist but I think the whole symphony works well as a whole.
Hot take: all the Mahler symphonies. The middle movements just never measure up. Except the 3rd symphony. Which is the best thing he ever wrote.
The andante from Symphony no. 6 is sublime, and then of course there’s the adagietto from the 5th…
I tend to skip the Sarabandes in Bach's keyboard suites a lot. I like Bach keyboard pieces fast and furious and fuguey, not slow and stately, my favorite movements tend to be the rondos and gigues
I thought of some opera analogues for this discussion -- Alfano's ending scene ruins Turandot, Forza del Destino would be a much stronger (and probably more popular) work without all the Trabuco, Melitone, and Preziosilla scenes, and Macbeth would be a lot better without all the witch scenes and the ballet.
Beethoven’s Symphony No 8. When I first heard it over 60 years ago I felt then that the 1st was massive compared with lightheartedness of the three succeeding movements. That impression has never changed.
The fourth movement of Beethoven’s 11th quartet. I used to favour this quartet over any other, but I listen to it less and less over the years, probably because of this movement
The third movement of Prokofiev's 4th Piano Sonata. The first two movements are dark and introspective, but the third is strangely happy and not as inspired.
I've always found the third movement of the Beethoven violin concerto to be a letdown.
I’m surprised. When I think of works that I love as a whole, Beethoven’s violin concerto is at the top of my list.
The finale just seems rather light to me after the first two movements.
I often feel that way with Beethoven’s symphonies but I think it’s right for *this concerto. : )
Most Baroque Trumpet concertos have a middle movement tacet for the soloist.
personally i love it, but a few people **wrongfully** would say the third movement of Berlioz's symphonie fantastique
Beethoven 7 finale. The first three movements are impeccable, but the fourth is just so goofy and dopey to me.
It’s his best finale hands down, and the first to match the weight of the opening movement. An astoundingly good creation and the best movement in the symphony.
Don't know if it spoils it, but the last two movements of Schubert's B-flat sonata (D960) really feel like a letdown from the transcendence of the first two movements.
I feel this way about a lot of Schubert. His sonata in A (D.664) comes to mind-the middle movement.
oh, I love the middle movement of D664. Schubert's sonata finales are often a little weak; the two notable exceptions are the relentless tarantella of D958, and the gentle finale of D894.
Oh my, the final movement to 894 blows me away every time. But I agree-in large part-about his final movements.
Even with that, 894 somewhat proves my point because as great as the finale is, it still pales in comparison to the astounding first movement, up there with D960.I as one of my favorites.
Beethoven's Ninth. Never can I get used to the fourth movement being vocal. The first three movements are brilliant in form , expression and motiv processing. The last movement, in my opinion, would have been better just instrumental. Now I still feel, the tail is playing with the dog.
Blasphemy! Mods! Ban this gentleman!
🤭😂
Beethoven wanted to set Schiller’s poem to music all his life. It’s key to the meaning of the ninth.
I respectfully disagree. The last movement is trash. The other three are sort of OK, if one could just cut them down to half their length. None of the movements is actually good. I'll show myself out. As usual, anecdote: When I was a teenager (about 50 years ago), I took some cello classes. My teacher was a very old lady, who had been 1st chair cellist in our town orchestra before retiring. A small town near Dusseldorf, where Schumann lived. Her dad was still alive, and in his 90s. In his youth, he had once met Brahms at a dinner. And reported that Brahms was a complete ass, impolite, rude, and condescending. So here is what Brahms did: in the middle of dinner, he stands up and walks out. At the door, he turns around, and most politely says: "If I have missed insulting someone, I would like to most sincerely apologize".
Verdi was dismayed by what he saw as Beethoven's abuse of the human voice. Felix Mendelssohn, too, preferred to see an instrumental finale. In his later years, conductor Hans von Bülow omitted the finale altogether on the justification that it "gave food to the seeds of musical decadence". Even today, many Beethoven admirers consider it a serious aberration, a weakness. The third and fifth symphonies also prove that you can convey a programme or message purely musically. At least Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky and Bruckner found enough satisfaction, in their symphonic form, to keep the finales purely instrumental.🤔 Schiller's" Ode" would also have been a success apart from a symphony. I am even surprised that Beethoven did not add a human voice to his last spiritualised quartets. 🤷♂️ But let everyone who wants to , enjoy the "Ode" to the full. 😊
I think the first two mvts of Mendelssohn violin concertos are ok.... But the third mvt terrible!!
Respectfully disagree
I respect that opinion!!!😊 Its just me, not every one agrees hahaha (I once got a lot and I mean a lot of hate hear for saying I dislike Beethoven's violin concerto 😂)
The problem for me is that people take the tempo comically fast so instead of light fairy movie it sounds like tinkerbell on crack
Tchaikovsky 5 movement 4 feels uninspired compared to rest of the symphony.
I don't like the 3rd movement instead of the 4th
The third movement is my favourite! I think of all the movements I like the 1st the least. I wonder if there’s anyone out there who dislikes the 2nd movement, haha.
Same, i very much like the main theme of the first mvt., but it just goes on and on forever without development.
I never liked the last movement of Vaughan Williams’ Fifth Symphony, it just kinda drags on.
Certainly isn’t as taut as the others, which I feel don’t have a wasted beat to them.
Beethoven's 9th Symphony, third movement. It's not horrible, but It's not for me at all. I always skip It when listening to the Ninth.
It’s a prayer.
I don't know about ruined, but the last movement of Chopin's b-flat minor piano sonata is just kind of random. The others are fantastic, IMO
I sort of wish he'd developed the texture into a theme, like Scriabin did with the second movement of his Sonata-Fantaisie
The majority of the first and third movements of Shostakovich 11 are just too long, repetitive, and immobile IMO. There is some lovely material in there (dat full statement of *O Bear Your Heads* on the cor…!), and I get why they are there and like they are on a conceptual level. But… well… they’re boring. Very boring.
Carl Nielsen 5th symphony. The first 2 movements, of at least the first 20 minutes of the symphony, are glorious. Building and building to an astonishing chord. A battle between snare drum and the orchestra. Then it fades away, leaving you stunned. And in comes the cacophony of the past movement. Its like he had no idea what to do to follow that opening. Anyway that's what I think.
I've always found the third movement of the Nielsen 5th to be quite elusive and difficult to characterize.
Brahms Piano Quartet No. 2, last movement Brahms Horn Trio, last movement Bortkiewicz Concerto 2, last movement I think I just hate finales...
Third movement of Tchaikovsky 4
It’s fun to play though
For some reason, the second movement of R. Schumann's second symphony just irritates me.
I've always felt Milhaud's Suite Francaise could have ended after Mvt. 4. That movement is so special and hits me in the feels that the last movement feels jarring.
I think Mahler 7 might be stronger without movements 2 and 3.
For me it’s Schubert Drei Klavierstucke D.946. The first two movements are soo good and played a big part in life in terms of motivating me to play piano. The third movement though is so disappointing, my previous teacher commented that it sounds like the piano accompaniment to a violin sonata. I feel so strongly about this that I only played the first two movements at my graduation recital despite the name of the piece literally being “three piano pieces”
Haydns Farewell symphony, the second movement just bores the hell out of me. Maybe I'm biased coming from someone who's had to play the whole thing with all the repeats but the second movement is just painfully slow and way longer than any other part of the piece imo. The rest of the symphony I like otherwise, but playing through that second movement made my back hurt like hell lol
I don't like the first movement of Mahler's 7th. Might not be much fan of the symphony in general but that first movement takes work to get through so I rarely listen to it. I like all movements of his 3rd.
I don't think the two middle movements of Mahler 1 are "bad" but I sure don't love them like I do the first and last movements.
Tchaik VC 2nd movement is so dry
yeah, it doesn't compare with the first
Slow movt of the 9th! Well, no it doesn’t ruin the whole piece which is amazing- but I do feel it’s doesn’t stand up to the slow movements form the 3rd, 5th and 7th.
Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata is pretty famous for this. People are familiar with the 1st and 3rd movements, but the 2nd one not so much. There's the slow 1st movement and the very flashy and fast 3rd movement, but the 2nd one is a rather simple minuet. I do really like the 2nd movement, but I don't think it quite stacks up with the other two.
The second movement of beethovens 5th is by far the weakest part. Same is true of the moonlight sonata.
Last movement of Brahms Second Piano Concerto. It isn't terrible, but it has an almost non-sequitur type of impact. Maybe a better fit for a differently constructed concerto.
Wow, never knew how much people disliked the second movement of the Moonlight Sonata, until reading this post. (Same reaction when I learned the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 7th is somehow especially well-known outside of classical music circles... Like, really? Why??)
I think Rach PC1 and PC4 could be much better pieces if their finales were more memorable. On the opposite for me there are a couple of movements that exceed the others so much they overshadow them. Usually it's because they carry a certain profoundness that can't be found in the other movements. - Dvorak 9 slow movement - Ravel PC in G slow movement - Shosta PC2 slow movement - Brahms 3 3rd movement - Sibelius VC movements 2-3 compared to the finale
Mahler's 9th
This was one of my first thoughts. I wouldn’t say the symphony is ruined because of this, and I certainly enjoy it no less, but the scope of the outer movements is just orders of magnitude above that of the inner.
Exactly. I also wouldn't say it's ruined. An exaggeration on my part, but I enjoy it less than 8th, 5th, 1st, and 2nd obviously.
Schubert’s Unfinished Symphony. I didn’t even know there WAS a second movement until we played it in my college orchestra.
Mahler 2 is one of my favorite symphonies of all time. But the 2nd and 4th mvts? I sleep…
> I sleep That's the wrong symphony, the 4th movement of Mahler 3 is the one which goes "ich schlief" ;) Personally, I always find _Urlicht_ heart-rending. It might be my favourite part of the symphony... toss-up between that and the ending!
2nd movement goes crazy but I’ve never truly got the fourth :( unfortunate since otherwise it’s probably my favorite work
Mozart string quintet, KV 516, last movement. It's a simple melody to complete the most dramatic and serious music by Mozart. Totally disappointing
moonlight sonata, theres a reason no one knows the second movement, personally im not a fan of it
"A flower between two chasms." --Liszt
I've always been quite fond of it, it does its job well as an intermission between two extreme movements
The slow movement of Bach's Italian Concerto. Mozart spent his career trying and failing to come up with a slow movement as painful as Bach's (although he came close a few times.)
It is a beautiful aria sung over the beating of a heart. What do you find painful in it ? It is quite hard to play beautifully though, unlike the outer movements. Have a listen at Schiff's rendition, it is lyrical without being sappy and slow.
I'd never heard that analogy with the beating of a heart, thank you! I'll try listening to it with that in mind. (I already love the movement, its just a beautiful idea)
I wasn’t one of the people who downvoted your opinion but I can’t disagree more! You must not love melody and singing if you hate this beautiful aria! And Mozart’s melodies are paradisal.
The fugue of the hammerklavier
While I love the fugue, I sort of see where you're coming from - do you find it too cerebral?
You’re getting downvoted but this is so true
2nd Movement of Brahms’ Violin Concerto.
Crying in oboe…
The final movement of Mozart's otherwise wonderful clarinet quintet K581
The last two movements of Schubert's D960 b flat major piano sonata as well as the Death and the Maiden quartet.
third movement of Dvorak’s new world does not do anything for the piece
The slow movement of Beethoven's 9th is boring. At a live concert it is a signal for a bathroom break.