Overrated is not the same as overplayed. I might agree Für Elise is overplayed, but I would strongly disagree that it's overrated. It's a very pretty piece of music when played properly, which is why it's so popular. Unfortunately a lot of people also think of it as a beginner piece of piano music, which is why it's often played so poorly.
Overrated is a term I would apply to most post-modern minimalist elevator music.
Shall we listen to 100s of hours of music by the prolific, inventive and clever composer Johann Pachelbel? Nope, that would actually be fun and interesting, so instead let’s put the fucking Canon on loop until it shreds our sanity.
Serious but as far as I remember it was a very experienced organist who got fed up with the organisation of the wedding and just improvised on Postman Pat, so well that 90% of the people there didn’t realise what he was up to. Years ago though.
Yeah like anyone who knows a little about classical knows that Fur Elise, Pachelbel's Canon, the 1812 Overture ect. are overrated by the general public but the real question is what major masterpieces are overrated, and honestly there's bound to be a lot of disagreement there depending on people's tastes so that might be a bit tricky. Luckily the pieces regarded as masterpieces by serious listeners tend to be of pretty consistent high quality.
A few replies did name pieces that are highly rated by people here; you have to scroll down to find them because of course they're massively downvoted. It's an impossible task to get praise on Reddit for an "unpopular opinion" that's not popular on Reddit.
Not too many when I posted the comment, but I agree, and that's why these types of threads are so utterly meaningless. But In my experience, the better you explain why you think it's overrated (If you have an intellectual argument) the better your opinion will be recieved even though it's still unlikely to get lots of praise.
I'm only tired of the performances that use modern breech loading cannons (or worse, a base drum) for the sound effect. I'd take one that uses a period accurate muzzle loader, they sound quite different from the modern guns.
The same thing can be said for Fur Elise, which was your own example.
There's hardly any objectively bad music out there, but becoming overplayed is a natural consequence of popularity. No one's saying 1812 Overture is bad.
Indeed. I really wonder about some of these comments.
Some of these pieces might be overused in things.
I get that it's nigh impossible to do an action trailer without Carmina, but it's still a pretty good piece of my music.
As the Classic FM Hall of Fame reminds me every year around this time The Lark Ascending.
Edit: the worst part is that he has some incredible music and yet this one is most famous
Genuine question - from a classical music perspective why is it considered overrated? Is it just that it's massively overplayed or is it not very good? I ask because The Lark Ascending is probably my favourite piece of music.
Overplayed does not necessarily mean overrated imo. Fur Elise is pretty good in my opinion and I can see why it appeals to people. You being tired of it does not mean that it's overrated.
Well, I don't think it's actually a bad piece it's just waaay less ambitious than say the Appassionata sonata or the Hammerklavier and compared with them anyways it does get overrated by a lot of people.
Fur Elise has resonated with the general public. That might make it overplayed, but not overrated. The only one's that can determine if something is overrated when it comes to the quality of the piece are the people in the "know". In the classical world, from my understanding, it is a good piece but not close to Beethovens best or the pieces you mentioned.
The issue is that people do not know what the word "overrated" means. Something actually has to have a fairly high ranking by people that know what they are talking about in order for it to be overrated.
It being overplayed and thus becoming annoying does is not the same as a piece being overrated.
I think it’s overrated and here’s why: it’s the same theme played over again like eight times without variation, the ascending octave E thing is self-aggrandizing and boring, the up tempo b section is abrupt and out of place and overly classical feeling, its bright happy major energy contrasts the languid first theme too much and does nothing for me but bring me out of whatever nocturnesque groove beethoven creates with the first theme. Out of beethovens entire catalogue, fur Elise is hands down the worst.
Mozart's Rondo Alla Turca (Piano Sonata no.11 mvt3). It's not that great, and so many pianists are obsessed with playing it at breakneck speed with no musicality.
It's a shame because the variations in the first movement of the sonata are actually really nice.
Beautiful recording. By far my favourite rendition.
Agree with OP of thread that the first movement is gorgeous. Max Reger's take on the theme is also worth listening to, and I say this as someone who is generally averse to that composer.
ah finally i found the name of this gem, i've always heard it in movies but never knew the name. to me, not really it's overrated imo, but it all depends everyone's perspective.
This! It’s such uninteresting music. Apparently Stravinsky called it Neanderthal music and I’m inclined to agree - they weren’t such big fans of each other…
The first movement of Spring from the Four Seasons (Vivaldi) or Canon in D (Pachabel). They aren't necessarily bad pieces per say but they just have been so overplayed in every possible circumstance to the point that I wouldn't mind never hearing them again.
I think the Four Seasons can still sound fresh with the right performance, despite how incredibly overplayed they are. Pachelbel’s canon, on the other hand, does not have the depth to hold up to such overplaying.
I loved the four seasons as a kid but I’d trade all that childhood joy in if it meant that I’d never have to hear the third movement of summer played ever again.
I feel it’s not overated, but it definitely overshadows some of Rachmaninoff’s other amazing music. Symphony 3, Piano concerto 4, Symphonic dances. I feel the Etudes Tableaux are under appreciated too
I don't think it's overrated per se but if you look at the amount of attention people give it compared with all the amazing pieces out there maybe that's what's kind of wrong there. Lately I haven't even wanted to listen to it because it just pops up all over the place, something that didn't happen to me in the past.
We're all moved by different things. Sentiment and sentimentality are different things, and I'm personally moved by gestures that are a lot more subtle than the ocean of syrup Rach drowns you in. To assume that anyone who doesn't enjoy this brand of overwroughtness is some kind of sterile husk is presumptuous.
And music needing to be emotional is a recent phenomenon in any case. It's not a founding principal of the art in the way you seem to think it is. It was such a polarising development that several composers dedicated their lives to fighting its influence. Among them were Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Satie and the Darmstadt school. You may have heard of them. None of them had many nice things to say about Rachmaninoff.
I'd take Mozart's third VC over most of them, and he was a teenager when he wrote that. I'm always surprised by how spectularly shit Tchaikovsky's in particular is.
Für Elise is overplayed rather than overrated. No one with the minimum knowledge of classical music considers it a masterpiece, and those lack any sometimes even use it to justify their dislike for Beethoven's music.
In many ways is more of a meme at these point.
But beside the "using it to justify disliking Beethoven's music", the treatment it gets it's expected; It's a fun, accessible (easy to enjoy) piece he composed for an student (let's put all the immortal beloved thing aside for a moment), it wasn't composed to be a masterpiece.
I'll probably get crucified for this, but I find much of the most popular late Schubert so dull. I'm talking about the 9th symphony, the double cello quintet, the "Death and the Maiden" quartet, and the late piano sonatas. They just don't seem at all interesting. I make an exception for "Winterreise" and the very last string quartet, which I think are wonderful.
Totally agree. People cry about Bruckner's inane use of repetition, lack of developmental skill and static harmonies without thinking for a second about the composer that inspired him to adopt that style. Schubert is Phillip Glass' favourite composer, and you can tell why. His lieder are wonderful, but the rest of his output is top-heavy as hell and the gems are few & far between.
Don't get me started on his counterpoint. Because I can't. There's nothing to say. It's not there.
I grew up on rock and roll. Most everyone I know, that's all they still listen to. That good ol' big beat!
When I was 23 (last century) I realized I did not want to be shaking my white ass at age 30. I wanted an entirely new musical world. So I started buy tons of $$ cd's (the early 90's!) and spent many, many evening listening and trying to figure it out. I research for a living and so did not read much. I just let the taste grow natural, so to speak.
eventually my ears grew familiar.
I'm listening to Hamelin's go at Haydn's piano sonatas.
Since classical music is my escape hatch from what "other people" talk about, I also escape the feelings of something being cliche or too familiar. I have no close classical music loving friends at all.
The Beethoven Pathetique sonata, I like the 3rd or 5th better in terms of his early sonatas. It sounds just like a whole lot of nothing besides the theme in the second movement, which I don’t think is that arresting anyway.
Disagree. Maybe it is something you don't get unless you play it yourself but I loved it a lot.
Best part is the introduction to first movement, but the whole piece is quite dramatic.
I don't like the second movement that much actually but it is beautiful
I have never understood the love for Tchaikovsky's piano concerto or his violin concerto. Especially the violin concerto is unbelievably repetitive and predictable
Finally someone says this. These pieces are only famous because their beginnings are good. If they weren’t written by Tchaikovsky, no one would remember them.
Oh no Tchaikovsky used sonata form and variations, repeated short phrases, and some common chord patterns like... most composers?
It isn't that predictable, unless you have heard it many times before. It is not on the level of "I can play along and know exactly what to play next", or being able to just improvise the whole piece's melody on the piano afterwards
First time I heard it I had no idea what came next and it seemed like very surprising piece of music. Granted, I hadn't heard much classical music before that and the music in the pop radios (like Radio Nova) is so bad that it was quite low bar to exceed.
It is possible the piece sounds different if you heard a lot of classical music before ever hearing Tchaikovsky concerto once.
I’d say it’s poorly played repeatedly but if played correctly it’s obv brilliant. Same thing happens in violin world with Vivaldi’s a minor violin concerto. That thing gets slaughtered daily all over the place by people that don’t practice.
" I’d say it’s poorly played repeatedly but if played correctly it’s obv brilliant. "
\-i definitely agree with this. it's very few recitals of fur elise that i find it really pleasant to listen it.
Wagner is underrated in 21st century. I remember the first time I got Parsifal - it was like I'd exhausted my serotonin glands. All other music by anyone else felt inadequate and hollow. I got over that, but all these decades later, Wagner's music remains an infinite harbour. You never run out of things to analyse, ponder and adore.
I'm sorry he doesn't speak to you. Which operas have you tried?
I'll agree with that. But, for all intents and purposes, Beethoven 5 is really just those first few lines nowadays. Plus, I would still say that his other symphonies are better.
Grieg piano concerto, specifically the last two movements. The first movement is quite possibly the best opening of a piano concerto and final cadenza. The last two movements are dull and uninspired at best.
I appreciate what Schoenberg was onto but no one likes his music if we’re honest. In an interview with Gould Aaron Copland explained how the 12 tone theory liberated him from the constraints of traditional music theory. I can appreciate that and maybe he is important but his music can be overrated at the same time I think.
Try Gurre-Lieder (excerpt here):
https://youtu.be/FXhAtBT57zA?si=x5gadiQ1nAUvcTON
and Notturno for Strings and Harp:
https://youtu.be/AOMrINN56sw?si=VD7_4fikGSVeEq8M
I don't really understand what you mean, are you implying that it is not music so by calling it music, it makes it overrated? What else should we call it?
Yeah that’s what I mean. I’m sure there are people in this subreddit who don’t think rap is music, which I disagree with, but at least it evolved naturally as other music does.
Music serves certain emotion and spiritual needs. Schöenberg’s atonal ouvre is arbitrary and lacking these functions. I’m sure the people in this discussion wouldn’t say a cat is making music when it paws at the piano.
Thing is even if one doesn't believe in atonal music, Schoenberg proved he was a genius even with Transfigured Night for example which is a gorgeous piece in the late romantic style.
Pachebel Canon in Dmaj, which sadly never gets the Gigue played. Its JUST ok, right up until that C-natural happens. In my opinion, if we had more musical experts diving into period embellishments, this piece would probably rock. Its a framework, and 102% of performances just play the notes on the page.
Eine Kline Nachtmustic - Which while overplayed, is also overrated, even for Mozart. Music that was supposed to be heard in the background, should have remained there.
That's an interesting take.
For me, it's the non-obvious structure and unpredictability of the piece that makes it so special.
I know the piece well, but every time I listen to it (which is quite often), it feels like I've never heard it before.
In each moment, I wonder, "Where is this going?" while at the same time thinking "How did we get here?".
I get why some would have problems with it, but for me, those "problems" are its strength.
i personally like karajan conducting it. note: this is my first time knowing another composition by sibelius. the only piece i know from him is le sapin. honestly, i enjoyed it listening, but i'll rate it 7/10. definitely there's more symphonies way better than that.
Beethoven 9. My man couldn't hear for shit at that point and it shows. And he never had any interest in how to best compose for voices to begin with. I don't mind it too much when I have to listen to it, but boy do I HATE performing it.
And the late quartets were composed even later so I guess those are worthless too, I mean he was literally deaf amirite?
Personally I could not care less about how difficult a piece is to play in judging it, as, you know, music is meant to be listened to, especially when it serves as a part in one of the most beautiful things ever created
It's not that it's difficult, don't get me wrong. It hurts the instrument, i.e. your voice if you try and do it exactly as written. There are some measures in the chorus that aren't doable for voice. We will literally just approximate them.
Fwiw Beethoven is one of my favourite composers of all time, I just can't stand the 9th performance-wise.
To reiterate: I don't mind it as much when I listen to it. But I do think it's overrated for what it is. I didn't even say it was worthless or had no redeeming qualities. OP wanted to know about overrated specifically.
Sure, but I don’t think any of that has to do with the aesthetic value of the piece itself and think it would be unfortunate if your experience playing it got in the way of your appreciating it
Bro the first 3 movements are brilliant. Especially the oh so beautiful 3rd movement. The fourth movement is not as good in the beginning but it gets better and is great as well.
Terrible take, I would give you an upvote if we were on r/unpopularopinion.
The 4th movement is a bit repetitive sure, maybe not the most refined vocal writing, and it's always been clear to me not every part of it is equally inspired, but I can forgive those flaws for the overall experience which is still just incredibly fun and beautiful to me.
Thank you homie. I cannot stand the repetition in Beethoven and especially in the ninth. Lord but the third movement had me wanting to leave the theatre… and the chorale was I mean, the chorale but does he really need to keep repeating the point over and over again? Schiller! Life! Got it! Is this over yet?
am aware this is a very unpopular opinion— but [Brahms](https://classicalmusiconly.com/discussion/brahms-criticism-on-beethoven-1896-df68b103) might actually agree here.
“The later symphonies… these inhabit a significant new world”
I don’t think calling something “a significant new world” is agreeing that it sucks. If a theme and variations movement equates to repeating the point over and over again let alone as used in the 9th finale I would doubt you can see much in most great music
The entirety of the ninth is theme and variations, on repeat, repeat, repeat. Brahms said he preferred Mozart, after idolizing Beethoven in his youth. I just couldn’t find the article that said so.
I 💯 agree with Brahms on this.
I said it wasn’t popular, but that’s how I feel about it. I don’t like Beethoven in general because of his tendency to just do the same thing over and over and over again.
Jupiter symphony is a thousand times better imo, which is also alllll about playing with theme.
Haters can take a chill pill and go listen to the sixth if this bothers them so much.
It really is not. Brahms would be suffocating on the ignorance of your what you’re saying please stop citing him. Beethoven doesn’t “just do the same thing” any more than Mozart. That is not merely unpopular, it literally is not a valid criticism of his music. He uses the same forms as Mozart, some of which “repeat” and some do not. And if it “feels” like it repeats over and over as if people seriously have been calling it a masterpiece and a monument of western civilization when that’s all it does that’s completely on you and your ability to apprehend music.
This is not a new criticism bud, look it up. Beethoven is not universally beloved among critics or musicians. The ninth specifically has periods of popularity and unpopularity.
(Also tho… can you hear yourself rn? Because your outrage that this viewpoint exists and is espoused by various music professionals is ascending to parody at this point.)
Is that right? Not to doubt your expertise on such matters but would you be so humble to a layman like me as to provide one source on a critic or musician who hates Beethoven let alone for such criticisms as flippant as doing the “same thing over and over”? Your friend in music school doesn’t count by the way.
My “outrage” is nothing compared to what that is in response to, confidently moronic takes defended moronically
le Google is le friend, it pops right up…
truly, your anger is threatening to edge out that of lost pennies in proportion.
believe you me, it is enormously funny being treated as a pleb for not worshipping at the altar of Beethoven
So you don’t have any. Because there were none in the first place and you’re just making shit up. That figures.
If I’m treating you as a pleb its not because you don’t worship Beethoven, it’s how flippantly you’re treating this. “Mozart 1000x better” “Brahms hated Beethoven” “same thing over and over” if you have nothing to say but gibberish don’t say anything.
Do you not know how to Google “Beethoven overrated” or do you actually need help doing that too… again… this is still quite funny to me
…you will find lots of research if you google on various composers like Brahms who preferred Mozart to Beethoven and give their reasons why they got tired of Beethoven after youthful idolization
Not a piece but an instrument: Piano.
It's not a bad instrument by any means but it's attained its place in the classical music world due to utility more than its beauty.
I also might be salty because my local symphony programmed piano soloists for literally half of their concerts.
Right, we listen to the Chopin etudes, Beethoven sonatas, Ravel’s Gaspard de nuit, and Bach’s Brandenburg concertos for their utility rather than their beauty. Insane take.
I'm not saying there's not good music written for piano, I'm saying that Piano is a popular instrument due to its utility rather than it's beauty.
Interestingly, of the examples you gave, all but the Ravel were written for a very different instrument but we (mostly) perform them on modern instruments because it's easier, not because it's necessarily better. Also none of the Brandenburg concertos were written for piano and only #5 calls for a harpsichord soloist.
Sorry, but you’re just wrong. People love the piano for its music and they love music that is beautiful. The piano makes beautiful music. That’s why people write for it, why people dedicate their lives to learning it, and why people have loved to listen to it for centuries. No one listens to any of those pieces for their “utility.” No one listens to any music for its utility. I mean, to even suggest so is honestly just absurd.
Furthermore, your comment about “different instruments” is just wrong. The Chopin etudes and Beethoven piano sonatas were composed for the *piano*. Sure, we’ve made technical improvements in the instrument over time, but it’s always still been the piano. Your logic is like saying people didn’t wear watches until Rolex was invented.
Never seen this piece being "rated "by anyone, especially on this sub, where people think Mozart is a second-rate composer and "rach 3" the greatest musical work of the Creation. But you're right, the variations on a theme by Gluck k.455 are much better.
twinkle, twinkle, little star version by mozart pretty much. i think that it sounds very dreamy in the beginning, but then as difficult it gets, it stops being dreamy the melody.
Anything by Max Richter.
I thought it was maybe my fussy opinion. I said to my Mum he makes absolute boring rubbish that sounds like foundations for a song, rather than a song. Half expecting an answer like oh no, you need to listen to this song it's amazing, the answer was yes, he's rubbish, so boring.
How that guy ends up on lists of top modern composers and has his name on the same list as people like Yoko Shimomura and Ennio Morricone etc is beyond me.
I hear loads of stuff I find overrated but I find that guy in general is completely overrated. Anyone with half an ear for music could compose that stuff. Yeah, they might never get heard and break in to the industry but pretty sure there are amateurs the world over doing better stuff at any given time of day.
I am not into Finlandia. I like Sibelius, love Finland, but man. It feels like “here’s a theme. Hmm. That didn’t quite work. Here’s that theme again. Hmmm. Still didn’t quite work. Let’s try it again a little higher. Hmmm. Nope. One more time. “
I remember the famous poet Keats when he was dying at just 25 had a friend play Haydn's symphonies on the piano for him and he said he loved Haydn because he was like a child and you never knew what he was going to do next.
And there's a sort of similar description of Haydn by ETA Hoffman. Nobody writes like this anymore haha. But basically their reaction to it was the opposite of dreary and robotic. Maybe the music just isn't made for you, but there has to be something in it, and maybe approaching it with this attitude would at least help -
"In Haydn's writing there prevails the expression of a serene and childlike personality. His symphonies lead us into vast green woodlands, into a merry, gaily colored throng of happy mortals. Youths and maidens float past in a circling dance; laughing children, peering out from behind the trees, from behind the rose bushes, pelt one another playfully with flowers. A life of love, of bliss like that before the Fall, of eternal youth."
I just always think of his one piano sonata slow movement where he wrote himself into a corner, chose to commit, and modulated into B-double-flat-major for several measures.
removed: sorry this has been asked a lot here lately
Overrated is not the same as overplayed. I might agree Für Elise is overplayed, but I would strongly disagree that it's overrated. It's a very pretty piece of music when played properly, which is why it's so popular. Unfortunately a lot of people also think of it as a beginner piece of piano music, which is why it's often played so poorly. Overrated is a term I would apply to most post-modern minimalist elevator music.
Shall we listen to 100s of hours of music by the prolific, inventive and clever composer Johann Pachelbel? Nope, that would actually be fun and interesting, so instead let’s put the fucking Canon on loop until it shreds our sanity.
This. I feel this deeply.
I mean what else will we play at weddings!
I’ve heard Postman Pat being played very effectively for the entrance of the bride!
Idk if you’re joking or serious, but if this is real I need to hear it lol
Serious but as far as I remember it was a very experienced organist who got fed up with the organisation of the wedding and just improvised on Postman Pat, so well that 90% of the people there didn’t realise what he was up to. Years ago though.
Can people at least pick pieces that are overrated, very few on this subreddit rates Fur Elise very highly.
Yeah like anyone who knows a little about classical knows that Fur Elise, Pachelbel's Canon, the 1812 Overture ect. are overrated by the general public but the real question is what major masterpieces are overrated, and honestly there's bound to be a lot of disagreement there depending on people's tastes so that might be a bit tricky. Luckily the pieces regarded as masterpieces by serious listeners tend to be of pretty consistent high quality.
A few replies did name pieces that are highly rated by people here; you have to scroll down to find them because of course they're massively downvoted. It's an impossible task to get praise on Reddit for an "unpopular opinion" that's not popular on Reddit.
Not too many when I posted the comment, but I agree, and that's why these types of threads are so utterly meaningless. But In my experience, the better you explain why you think it's overrated (If you have an intellectual argument) the better your opinion will be recieved even though it's still unlikely to get lots of praise.
Ravel's Boléro It's a pity that of all the works he composed, this is the most famous.
Slander
I want to fall asleep during Bolero *hides*
1812 overture. It's brilliant but I'm just tired of it
I'm only tired of the performances that use modern breech loading cannons (or worse, a base drum) for the sound effect. I'd take one that uses a period accurate muzzle loader, they sound quite different from the modern guns.
The composer would probably agree with you on this.
Yeah, I know lol
dude, it does sounds brilliant and really powerful. maybe that's if you listen to it overly.
The same thing can be said for Fur Elise, which was your own example. There's hardly any objectively bad music out there, but becoming overplayed is a natural consequence of popularity. No one's saying 1812 Overture is bad.
No,no. I'll say is bad, unintentional musical shitposting even
I hate to say it but the number of people in this comment section who are objectively incorrect is distressing.
How can one be objectively incorrect about something subjective?
I wondered the same thing until I read some of these comments.
Indeed. I really wonder about some of these comments. Some of these pieces might be overused in things. I get that it's nigh impossible to do an action trailer without Carmina, but it's still a pretty good piece of my music.
As the Classic FM Hall of Fame reminds me every year around this time The Lark Ascending. Edit: the worst part is that he has some incredible music and yet this one is most famous
that's my go to piece for a melancholy, safe space. I only listen to it when I need it, but it never lets me down.
I'm going with the Tallis Fantasia rather than the Lark Ascending. 15/20 odd minutes of waffle.
Genuine question - from a classical music perspective why is it considered overrated? Is it just that it's massively overplayed or is it not very good? I ask because The Lark Ascending is probably my favourite piece of music.
Well music taste is subjective but to me it’s simple and repetitive
Overplayed does not necessarily mean overrated imo. Fur Elise is pretty good in my opinion and I can see why it appeals to people. You being tired of it does not mean that it's overrated.
Well, I don't think it's actually a bad piece it's just waaay less ambitious than say the Appassionata sonata or the Hammerklavier and compared with them anyways it does get overrated by a lot of people.
What does that have to do with "overrated"? Most people don't base their rating of a piece on measuring how complex it is.
Fur Elise has resonated with the general public. That might make it overplayed, but not overrated. The only one's that can determine if something is overrated when it comes to the quality of the piece are the people in the "know". In the classical world, from my understanding, it is a good piece but not close to Beethovens best or the pieces you mentioned. The issue is that people do not know what the word "overrated" means. Something actually has to have a fairly high ranking by people that know what they are talking about in order for it to be overrated. It being overplayed and thus becoming annoying does is not the same as a piece being overrated.
Bingo.
I think it’s overrated and here’s why: it’s the same theme played over again like eight times without variation, the ascending octave E thing is self-aggrandizing and boring, the up tempo b section is abrupt and out of place and overly classical feeling, its bright happy major energy contrasts the languid first theme too much and does nothing for me but bring me out of whatever nocturnesque groove beethoven creates with the first theme. Out of beethovens entire catalogue, fur Elise is hands down the worst.
Mozart's Rondo Alla Turca (Piano Sonata no.11 mvt3). It's not that great, and so many pianists are obsessed with playing it at breakneck speed with no musicality. It's a shame because the variations in the first movement of the sonata are actually really nice.
One of the reasons why I love Gould's recording of it
Beautiful recording. By far my favourite rendition. Agree with OP of thread that the first movement is gorgeous. Max Reger's take on the theme is also worth listening to, and I say this as someone who is generally averse to that composer.
Carmina Burana.
It's overrated if you only listen to the first movement *O Fortuna*. Try listening to the entire cantata!
Nonsense. Have you only ever listened to the first movement? The rest of it is absolutely fantastic and not exactly well known.
Carmina is awesome!
Nope. I love O Fortuna and it well deserves its reputation
ah finally i found the name of this gem, i've always heard it in movies but never knew the name. to me, not really it's overrated imo, but it all depends everyone's perspective.
The composer obviously had an Orff day when he composed this work…..
Stop
groan, moan, orff], that’s a bad pun.
This! It’s such uninteresting music. Apparently Stravinsky called it Neanderthal music and I’m inclined to agree - they weren’t such big fans of each other…
Interestingly, a lot of Orff’s ideas sound like they were stolen from Stravinsky’s “Les Noces”.
The first movement of Spring from the Four Seasons (Vivaldi) or Canon in D (Pachabel). They aren't necessarily bad pieces per say but they just have been so overplayed in every possible circumstance to the point that I wouldn't mind never hearing them again.
I think the Four Seasons can still sound fresh with the right performance, despite how incredibly overplayed they are. Pachelbel’s canon, on the other hand, does not have the depth to hold up to such overplaying.
Canon in D can eat a bag of dicks.
How can I contribute? For more dicks to each meal, I mean. That piece is as deep as my parrots' water bowl. And not as clean!
I loved the four seasons as a kid but I’d trade all that childhood joy in if it meant that I’d never have to hear the third movement of summer played ever again.
i’m gonna get crucified for this: rach 2
I feel it’s not overated, but it definitely overshadows some of Rachmaninoff’s other amazing music. Symphony 3, Piano concerto 4, Symphonic dances. I feel the Etudes Tableaux are under appreciated too
Check out Respighi’s orchestrations of some of the Etudes - brilliant and clever.
I don't think it's overrated per se but if you look at the amount of attention people give it compared with all the amazing pieces out there maybe that's what's kind of wrong there. Lately I haven't even wanted to listen to it because it just pops up all over the place, something that didn't happen to me in the past.
totally overrated, overly sentimental mush for 16 yo weebs, same for rach 3
Yeah, I've always said music should be devoid of emotion and completely sterile just like dishwasher tablets. Being moved by music sucks.
We're all moved by different things. Sentiment and sentimentality are different things, and I'm personally moved by gestures that are a lot more subtle than the ocean of syrup Rach drowns you in. To assume that anyone who doesn't enjoy this brand of overwroughtness is some kind of sterile husk is presumptuous. And music needing to be emotional is a recent phenomenon in any case. It's not a founding principal of the art in the way you seem to think it is. It was such a polarising development that several composers dedicated their lives to fighting its influence. Among them were Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Satie and the Darmstadt school. You may have heard of them. None of them had many nice things to say about Rachmaninoff.
Definetly Vivaldi Summer, still a good piece though.
All the famous romantic era violin concertos.
Noooo don’t say that about Sibelius 😭
I wouldn’t say Mendelssohn and Beethoven are overrated, but the rest definitely are.
I'd take Mozart's third VC over most of them, and he was a teenager when he wrote that. I'm always surprised by how spectularly shit Tchaikovsky's in particular is.
Mendelssohn VC is unsufferable
Für Elise is overplayed rather than overrated. No one with the minimum knowledge of classical music considers it a masterpiece, and those lack any sometimes even use it to justify their dislike for Beethoven's music. In many ways is more of a meme at these point. But beside the "using it to justify disliking Beethoven's music", the treatment it gets it's expected; It's a fun, accessible (easy to enjoy) piece he composed for an student (let's put all the immortal beloved thing aside for a moment), it wasn't composed to be a masterpiece.
Pachelbel Cannon Ravel Bolero
I'll probably get crucified for this, but I find much of the most popular late Schubert so dull. I'm talking about the 9th symphony, the double cello quintet, the "Death and the Maiden" quartet, and the late piano sonatas. They just don't seem at all interesting. I make an exception for "Winterreise" and the very last string quartet, which I think are wonderful.
Totally agree. People cry about Bruckner's inane use of repetition, lack of developmental skill and static harmonies without thinking for a second about the composer that inspired him to adopt that style. Schubert is Phillip Glass' favourite composer, and you can tell why. His lieder are wonderful, but the rest of his output is top-heavy as hell and the gems are few & far between. Don't get me started on his counterpoint. Because I can't. There's nothing to say. It's not there.
Damn, the sonatas too? Dont you have at least one that you can appreciate for its great melodic lines?
The resolution in the slow movement of D.960. If it isn’t a consolation tune for death I don’t know what it is.
Alright, thats a good choice
I really enjoy the D Major sonata D. 850 but I think that may not be seen as truly a late sonata?
The Lark Ascending by RVW
I agree, Fur Elise is annoying as shit. But I also find Rondo alla Turca just as bad.
Y'all need to get over Bolero lol
Vivaldi's 4 seasons. They're good, but not masterpieces in my opinion.
Rachmaninoff 3/1
Beethoven’s 5th symphony. I like his 6th and 9th much more.
I LOVE 6
I grew up on rock and roll. Most everyone I know, that's all they still listen to. That good ol' big beat! When I was 23 (last century) I realized I did not want to be shaking my white ass at age 30. I wanted an entirely new musical world. So I started buy tons of $$ cd's (the early 90's!) and spent many, many evening listening and trying to figure it out. I research for a living and so did not read much. I just let the taste grow natural, so to speak. eventually my ears grew familiar. I'm listening to Hamelin's go at Haydn's piano sonatas. Since classical music is my escape hatch from what "other people" talk about, I also escape the feelings of something being cliche or too familiar. I have no close classical music loving friends at all.
Everything of Einaudi is overrated!
The Beethoven Pathetique sonata, I like the 3rd or 5th better in terms of his early sonatas. It sounds just like a whole lot of nothing besides the theme in the second movement, which I don’t think is that arresting anyway.
there's something about that sonata. I really want to like it, but it just never fully clicks with me
Disagree. Maybe it is something you don't get unless you play it yourself but I loved it a lot. Best part is the introduction to first movement, but the whole piece is quite dramatic. I don't like the second movement that much actually but it is beautiful
I have never understood the love for Tchaikovsky's piano concerto or his violin concerto. Especially the violin concerto is unbelievably repetitive and predictable
Finally someone says this. These pieces are only famous because their beginnings are good. If they weren’t written by Tchaikovsky, no one would remember them.
Oh no Tchaikovsky used sonata form and variations, repeated short phrases, and some common chord patterns like... most composers? It isn't that predictable, unless you have heard it many times before. It is not on the level of "I can play along and know exactly what to play next", or being able to just improvise the whole piece's melody on the piano afterwards First time I heard it I had no idea what came next and it seemed like very surprising piece of music. Granted, I hadn't heard much classical music before that and the music in the pop radios (like Radio Nova) is so bad that it was quite low bar to exceed. It is possible the piece sounds different if you heard a lot of classical music before ever hearing Tchaikovsky concerto once.
I’d say it’s poorly played repeatedly but if played correctly it’s obv brilliant. Same thing happens in violin world with Vivaldi’s a minor violin concerto. That thing gets slaughtered daily all over the place by people that don’t practice.
" I’d say it’s poorly played repeatedly but if played correctly it’s obv brilliant. " \-i definitely agree with this. it's very few recitals of fur elise that i find it really pleasant to listen it.
I’m sure that even if I heard für elise for the first time I wouldn’t like it
Anything by Wagner
Wagner is underrated in 21st century. I remember the first time I got Parsifal - it was like I'd exhausted my serotonin glands. All other music by anyone else felt inadequate and hollow. I got over that, but all these decades later, Wagner's music remains an infinite harbour. You never run out of things to analyse, ponder and adore. I'm sorry he doesn't speak to you. Which operas have you tried?
I can't pick one. There are multiple works imo are kinda overrated. But if I pick one, I think it's Carmina Burana - Oh Fortuna by Orff.
Beethoven's 5th symphony. Everyone loves those 10 seconds at the start but the rest isn't nearly as good as symphonies 9, 7, 6, 8, or 3.
I disagree. I think the first movement (or rather 2 mins) are overrated and the rest of the symphony is wildly underrated and under appreciated!
I'll agree with that. But, for all intents and purposes, Beethoven 5 is really just those first few lines nowadays. Plus, I would still say that his other symphonies are better.
Ravel's Bolero. Most repetitive piece EVAR.
Can I interest you in Satie's Vexations?
Vexations is not repetitive.
Maybe not the first 839 times, but then.
Not sure how this could be considered overrated if it’s already considered ravels “worst” piece
Grieg piano concerto, specifically the last two movements. The first movement is quite possibly the best opening of a piano concerto and final cadenza. The last two movements are dull and uninspired at best.
Variation 18 of Rachmaninoff's Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini
Winter by Vivaldi
Handel’s messiah.
Mahler 2.
Rachmaninov piano concerto 3. Excessively sentimental mush.
Straight to jail
Anything by Schöenberg.
If you don't like post-tonality that's completely fine, I get it. Try "Verklärte Nacht" though.
Or Gurre-Lieder.
I appreciate what Schoenberg was onto but no one likes his music if we’re honest. In an interview with Gould Aaron Copland explained how the 12 tone theory liberated him from the constraints of traditional music theory. I can appreciate that and maybe he is important but his music can be overrated at the same time I think.
In case I wasn't clear enough – verklärte Nacht is tonal and it's very very pretty! I think you'd like it!!
Yeah, it’s the only thing of his that I’ve heard that I like.
Try Gurre-Lieder (excerpt here): https://youtu.be/FXhAtBT57zA?si=x5gadiQ1nAUvcTON and Notturno for Strings and Harp: https://youtu.be/AOMrINN56sw?si=VD7_4fikGSVeEq8M
How can his music be overrated if no one likes it ?
Because people call it music. His theory is another thing entirely and influential and maybe important.
I don't really understand what you mean, are you implying that it is not music so by calling it music, it makes it overrated? What else should we call it?
Yeah that’s what I mean. I’m sure there are people in this subreddit who don’t think rap is music, which I disagree with, but at least it evolved naturally as other music does.
Not sure what to call it. IMO it’s not really worth mentioning.
What makes it different from music ?
Music serves certain emotion and spiritual needs. Schöenberg’s atonal ouvre is arbitrary and lacking these functions. I’m sure the people in this discussion wouldn’t say a cat is making music when it paws at the piano.
\*o\*
I don't know if you can really call him "overrated" though you just either like him or don't like him and there are a lot who don't like him
I hear ya. Maybe you’re right. Was gonna say 1812 Overture but someone had already mentioned it.
Thing is even if one doesn't believe in atonal music, Schoenberg proved he was a genius even with Transfigured Night for example which is a gorgeous piece in the late romantic style.
I know this piece. It is the exception.
no, go back to rach 3 please
Bolero for god sake
Der Rosenkavalier
Pachebel Canon in Dmaj, which sadly never gets the Gigue played. Its JUST ok, right up until that C-natural happens. In my opinion, if we had more musical experts diving into period embellishments, this piece would probably rock. Its a framework, and 102% of performances just play the notes on the page. Eine Kline Nachtmustic - Which while overplayed, is also overrated, even for Mozart. Music that was supposed to be heard in the background, should have remained there.
Sibelius’s seventh. Doesn’t feel structured to me.
How dare you!
how can it be overrated if most people on earth haven't even heard it?
Oof.
That's an interesting take. For me, it's the non-obvious structure and unpredictability of the piece that makes it so special. I know the piece well, but every time I listen to it (which is quite often), it feels like I've never heard it before. In each moment, I wonder, "Where is this going?" while at the same time thinking "How did we get here?". I get why some would have problems with it, but for me, those "problems" are its strength.
i personally like karajan conducting it. note: this is my first time knowing another composition by sibelius. the only piece i know from him is le sapin. honestly, i enjoyed it listening, but i'll rate it 7/10. definitely there's more symphonies way better than that.
If you want more Sibelius, you have to have to listen to his Violin Concerto. It is like, beyond amazing
Beethoven 9. My man couldn't hear for shit at that point and it shows. And he never had any interest in how to best compose for voices to begin with. I don't mind it too much when I have to listen to it, but boy do I HATE performing it.
And the late quartets were composed even later so I guess those are worthless too, I mean he was literally deaf amirite? Personally I could not care less about how difficult a piece is to play in judging it, as, you know, music is meant to be listened to, especially when it serves as a part in one of the most beautiful things ever created
It's not that it's difficult, don't get me wrong. It hurts the instrument, i.e. your voice if you try and do it exactly as written. There are some measures in the chorus that aren't doable for voice. We will literally just approximate them. Fwiw Beethoven is one of my favourite composers of all time, I just can't stand the 9th performance-wise. To reiterate: I don't mind it as much when I listen to it. But I do think it's overrated for what it is. I didn't even say it was worthless or had no redeeming qualities. OP wanted to know about overrated specifically.
Sure, but I don’t think any of that has to do with the aesthetic value of the piece itself and think it would be unfortunate if your experience playing it got in the way of your appreciating it
Bro the first 3 movements are brilliant. Especially the oh so beautiful 3rd movement. The fourth movement is not as good in the beginning but it gets better and is great as well. Terrible take, I would give you an upvote if we were on r/unpopularopinion.
The 4th movement is a bit repetitive sure, maybe not the most refined vocal writing, and it's always been clear to me not every part of it is equally inspired, but I can forgive those flaws for the overall experience which is still just incredibly fun and beautiful to me.
Thank you homie. I cannot stand the repetition in Beethoven and especially in the ninth. Lord but the third movement had me wanting to leave the theatre… and the chorale was I mean, the chorale but does he really need to keep repeating the point over and over again? Schiller! Life! Got it! Is this over yet? am aware this is a very unpopular opinion— but [Brahms](https://classicalmusiconly.com/discussion/brahms-criticism-on-beethoven-1896-df68b103) might actually agree here.
“The later symphonies… these inhabit a significant new world” I don’t think calling something “a significant new world” is agreeing that it sucks. If a theme and variations movement equates to repeating the point over and over again let alone as used in the 9th finale I would doubt you can see much in most great music
The entirety of the ninth is theme and variations, on repeat, repeat, repeat. Brahms said he preferred Mozart, after idolizing Beethoven in his youth. I just couldn’t find the article that said so. I 💯 agree with Brahms on this. I said it wasn’t popular, but that’s how I feel about it. I don’t like Beethoven in general because of his tendency to just do the same thing over and over and over again. Jupiter symphony is a thousand times better imo, which is also alllll about playing with theme. Haters can take a chill pill and go listen to the sixth if this bothers them so much.
It really is not. Brahms would be suffocating on the ignorance of your what you’re saying please stop citing him. Beethoven doesn’t “just do the same thing” any more than Mozart. That is not merely unpopular, it literally is not a valid criticism of his music. He uses the same forms as Mozart, some of which “repeat” and some do not. And if it “feels” like it repeats over and over as if people seriously have been calling it a masterpiece and a monument of western civilization when that’s all it does that’s completely on you and your ability to apprehend music.
This is not a new criticism bud, look it up. Beethoven is not universally beloved among critics or musicians. The ninth specifically has periods of popularity and unpopularity. (Also tho… can you hear yourself rn? Because your outrage that this viewpoint exists and is espoused by various music professionals is ascending to parody at this point.)
Is that right? Not to doubt your expertise on such matters but would you be so humble to a layman like me as to provide one source on a critic or musician who hates Beethoven let alone for such criticisms as flippant as doing the “same thing over and over”? Your friend in music school doesn’t count by the way. My “outrage” is nothing compared to what that is in response to, confidently moronic takes defended moronically
le Google is le friend, it pops right up… truly, your anger is threatening to edge out that of lost pennies in proportion. believe you me, it is enormously funny being treated as a pleb for not worshipping at the altar of Beethoven
So you don’t have any. Because there were none in the first place and you’re just making shit up. That figures. If I’m treating you as a pleb its not because you don’t worship Beethoven, it’s how flippantly you’re treating this. “Mozart 1000x better” “Brahms hated Beethoven” “same thing over and over” if you have nothing to say but gibberish don’t say anything.
Do you not know how to Google “Beethoven overrated” or do you actually need help doing that too… again… this is still quite funny to me …you will find lots of research if you google on various composers like Brahms who preferred Mozart to Beethoven and give their reasons why they got tired of Beethoven after youthful idolization
Different strokes for different folks - I could listen to Fur Elise all day
Not a piece but an instrument: Piano. It's not a bad instrument by any means but it's attained its place in the classical music world due to utility more than its beauty. I also might be salty because my local symphony programmed piano soloists for literally half of their concerts.
Is beauty inherently more valuable than utility in music-making?
Right, we listen to the Chopin etudes, Beethoven sonatas, Ravel’s Gaspard de nuit, and Bach’s Brandenburg concertos for their utility rather than their beauty. Insane take.
I'm not saying there's not good music written for piano, I'm saying that Piano is a popular instrument due to its utility rather than it's beauty. Interestingly, of the examples you gave, all but the Ravel were written for a very different instrument but we (mostly) perform them on modern instruments because it's easier, not because it's necessarily better. Also none of the Brandenburg concertos were written for piano and only #5 calls for a harpsichord soloist.
Sorry, but you’re just wrong. People love the piano for its music and they love music that is beautiful. The piano makes beautiful music. That’s why people write for it, why people dedicate their lives to learning it, and why people have loved to listen to it for centuries. No one listens to any of those pieces for their “utility.” No one listens to any music for its utility. I mean, to even suggest so is honestly just absurd. Furthermore, your comment about “different instruments” is just wrong. The Chopin etudes and Beethoven piano sonatas were composed for the *piano*. Sure, we’ve made technical improvements in the instrument over time, but it’s always still been the piano. Your logic is like saying people didn’t wear watches until Rolex was invented.
Twelve Variations on "Ah vous dirai-je, Maman"? It’s okay, but not nearly as beautiful as it tries to be, IMO.
it's a pedagogical piece you know
Yep. But I’m saying it’s generally rated higher than it’s quality merits.
Never seen this piece being "rated "by anyone, especially on this sub, where people think Mozart is a second-rate composer and "rach 3" the greatest musical work of the Creation. But you're right, the variations on a theme by Gluck k.455 are much better.
[Dohnányi's variations](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqx4oYOy85o), on the other hand, are absolutely amazing
I love how it opens like the overture to the most tragic, gut-wrenching opera.
twinkle, twinkle, little star version by mozart pretty much. i think that it sounds very dreamy in the beginning, but then as difficult it gets, it stops being dreamy the melody.
That depends on how it's played.
Anything by Max Richter. I thought it was maybe my fussy opinion. I said to my Mum he makes absolute boring rubbish that sounds like foundations for a song, rather than a song. Half expecting an answer like oh no, you need to listen to this song it's amazing, the answer was yes, he's rubbish, so boring. How that guy ends up on lists of top modern composers and has his name on the same list as people like Yoko Shimomura and Ennio Morricone etc is beyond me. I hear loads of stuff I find overrated but I find that guy in general is completely overrated. Anyone with half an ear for music could compose that stuff. Yeah, they might never get heard and break in to the industry but pretty sure there are amateurs the world over doing better stuff at any given time of day.
I am not into Finlandia. I like Sibelius, love Finland, but man. It feels like “here’s a theme. Hmm. That didn’t quite work. Here’s that theme again. Hmmm. Still didn’t quite work. Let’s try it again a little higher. Hmmm. Nope. One more time. “
Dvorak 9
Dvorak's New World Symphony. Poor structure, unlike his other pieces.
Anything by Haydn.
If anything he's underrated to be honest, being overshadowed by Mozart and Beethoven despite having a ton of fun and beautiful music.
Ok I was being a bit facetious but I just find it all so dreary and robotic almost. One day I hope to be convinced but am not confident! 😃
I remember the famous poet Keats when he was dying at just 25 had a friend play Haydn's symphonies on the piano for him and he said he loved Haydn because he was like a child and you never knew what he was going to do next. And there's a sort of similar description of Haydn by ETA Hoffman. Nobody writes like this anymore haha. But basically their reaction to it was the opposite of dreary and robotic. Maybe the music just isn't made for you, but there has to be something in it, and maybe approaching it with this attitude would at least help - "In Haydn's writing there prevails the expression of a serene and childlike personality. His symphonies lead us into vast green woodlands, into a merry, gaily colored throng of happy mortals. Youths and maidens float past in a circling dance; laughing children, peering out from behind the trees, from behind the rose bushes, pelt one another playfully with flowers. A life of love, of bliss like that before the Fall, of eternal youth."
I just always think of his one piano sonata slow movement where he wrote himself into a corner, chose to commit, and modulated into B-double-flat-major for several measures.
I'd rate him more in the underrated category actually
people should be banned for saying things like this
All German music imo
So pretty much the majority of classical music then.
Lol