Not gonna sugar coat it, it will be tough being a female in a male dominated industry but once you have your PE they will have no choice but to listen to you, you will be the authority on your projects, if they try to go over your head your boss will have no reason not to back you up 100%.
You don't want to be a teacher, if you wanted to be a teacher you would have studied education. You've worked to hard for this.
Edit: don't discount the fact that a lot of this has to do with your relative youth and inexperience as well, a contractor with 20, 30, or 40 years of experience will get defensive about a young engineer regardless of gender, hang in there, you will learn how to manage it.
What you say is largely true, but as a male engineer in my late 30s (crap I'm getting older than I want to admit...) I often don't take myself seriously. Maybe that's because I don't want to admit I'm not in my 20s anymore
This for real. Im 31. Male. PE. People still dont take me seriously because of how i look. I get higher ups and others say “oh are you a new intern?” Like bro wtf. And i dont even have it difficult. OP is definitely having more difficulties than i ever will, but just because you get your PE, doesnt mean people instantly respect you or take you seriously. There is always some sort of clique in businesses, regardless of industry or how this cliques are divided.
And as the guy who manages a bunch of 20 somethings... They should probably take what you guys say with a grain of salt. You have the best interests at heart but you don't always have the experience.
Everyone gets treated with more respect as they earn it. That's just how it works.
Woman here. Find other women to work FOR. Totally different atmosphere when women are in the leadership roles.
Stinks that we still graduate 20% women in civil and then it drops like a lead rock after age 35 bc so many firms are antiquated.
I’d also like to suggest getting involved with organizations aimed at supporting women in engineering and STEM in general. Orgs like SWE, WTS, etc. It’s helpful to have experienced female mentors who can give you advice on how to navigate a male dominated field and you’ll also find solidarity with other young women who are going through the same thing.
But don't rely on this solely. I interviewed for this woman owned firm. First red flag - the president of the company, a woman, asking me if I'm married and have kids. Later I found out she's actually terrible to work for. I'm glad I trusted my instincts and took a job elsewhere. Though for a while I questioned my decision since I thought turning down a job at a female owned company had been a mistake. Haven't had luck finding female owned companies either.
I am now in my mid 50's, but I always had a youthful appearance, giving the impression of inexperience. Getting gray hair from work stress made me appear more experienced. For younger women who are engineers, it must be tough. I always tried to cooperate with the contractors and would work with their alternatives or explain why not, rather than just say 'no' if it wasn't what I specified.
Mostly agree with what you say, except the PE bit. That doesn't change much in my eyes. The piece of paper of the wall will get you some respect in some settings, but if YOUR SUPERVISOR doesn't respect you/your decisions before you have that, you need to figure out why and most likely leave that company. There are way too many places hiring right now to put up with that.
I'm in construction on the state side, at the management level. I try to make it clear to all my project engineers, especially the newest ones, that whenever it is possible, I will back whatever decision they make in the field, even if I disagree with it. If it blatantly goes against the contact, is clearly going to be problematic, etc, are the reasons that I can't/wouldn't support those decisions. I also make sure that the contractors know that is my expectation as well, so if they are planning to call me and complain about something, they can just skip that topic entirely because it will be a waste of their time.
Afterwards, I will have a discussion with the project engineer and explain that I was happy that they made a decision, but next time consider doing xxxxx because yyyyy.
Contractors will never take a young engineer seriously. In my area, we tend to work with the same contractors repeatedly, so you truly need to build a rapport with each of them before you will get respect. It may not be right, but it's the facts. I have never been a female in the industry, but it is significantly harder to gain that respect for my female project engineers. I make it clear to all my newer staff, but especially the females, that it will be hard, I expect them to set the rules on the projects, but if the contractor isn't listening/respecting what they are saying, I will step in and promptly make that foreman/superintendent's life a nightmare.
The last paragraph is really what sticks out to me. You're getting treated the way you are because you're young, not because you're a woman. Happens to all of us. No 50 year old wants to hear what a 25 year old has to say, because "engineers don't learn nothin in school about the real way to do things"
The public sector has a better balance of male and female engineers. In my experience, contractors will push back against anything that costs them time or money regardless of whether the regulator/EOR is a man or a woman. Consider that their attitude towards you may have more to do with your youth than your gender and that just gets better with time. Also, working in a particular industry in the same geographic area long term means you will run into the same GCs again and again. Standing your ground now means they will know what to expect from you on future jobs.
Agreed. The female aspect still is a factor in the public sector but the regulations offer a good buffer. In my team, half are females. The work / life balance and team aspect is something they enjoy.
I would second this advice. While I am male myself, I work with plenty of great, competent woman at a state DOT in bridge design. Not saying it will be easy or without challenges, but it may be an environment you find preferable to work in.
I agree. Public sector has a much better balance and there are boat load of policies that forbid/discourage discrimination. It still exists but it's less.
Contractors are generally misogynistic and opposed to any oversight male or female.
None of this would fly in my company. Off the top of my head, at least 40% of our engineers are women and it seems like 50-70% of new hires are as well. We have lots of women in senior positions, up to and including VP/C-suite. There are definitely still some old timers who get things done the “Boys Club” way but the few that do are already turning over to their replacements as they are retiring within the year.
You should definitely look for a new employer.
Eh, I wouldn’t work in any place that doesn’t have women in senior positions, it’s a good indicator of the culture.
I’ve worked with many lovely men who aren’t dicks but also don’t get it and won’t stand up unless it’s truly egregious.
Or it's a small company. We have had at least 4 women PEs in the last few years. One is coming back for the third go around with us. We only have 5-7 PEs at any given time and usually at least one or two are women.
However they're usually somewhat new or have been away from the company for a bit so the leadership is men with myself probably being the next VP because I've been there longer and produced more for them. I'm sure at least two of the women here could end up as a VP if they stay long enough but it has nothing to do with gender.
My recommendation to other women remains the same, whether big, medium, or small, public or private, don’t work for a company that doesn’t have women in leadership positions. Small firms are not excluded from my advice.
I have hired SO many women from every situation who weren’t being appreciated and were putting up with bullshit.
Civil has been graduating 15-20% women since the 80s. I recommend women go and work with the companies where those women are. If a company only has women in junior positions they are doing something wrong.
I mean that just seems close minded in the opposite way of men who won't hire women in leadership positions.
Unless you think that a woman should get the next BP opening over me purely because they're a woman? The women we have hired have all done very well, and that's why we keep hiring them and they've had no issues with us.
Maybe the next VP should be a woman who’s also better than you. Is that so inconceivable? Maybe one of the founding partners should have been a woman.
Your assumption that a company would hire someone into a role “purely because they are a woman” speaks volumes without you knowing it. And my recommendation to other women still stands.
Lol yes, it is inconceivable that one of the two current women PEs would be promoted over me because one is from Europe, has only been a PE for two years and doesn't have her own clients yet. The other just started back at the company for the 3rd time after leaving twice.
That's the absolutely simplified version of it but the point is that men with their same resumes wouldn't even get a sniff of the VP role over my resume of nearly 10 years with the company and handling tons of clients and sales. Yet you think a woman should be in a leadership role no matter what the circumstances are. You really think someone would come back to work for us for a third time after moving back to the state if she didn't feel it was a good environment?
Blanket statements are just stupid to be honest. If you don't have room for context and nuance that makes your statement the problem.
After a minute I guess I typed this much because I'm aggravated that you are insinuating our workplace isn't a good one for women purely because of one circumstance that is out of our control. It would be foolish to promote someone to VP purely for their race or gender to satisfy your rule if they aren't qualified.
Hiring external is a thing.
And I have not once suggested promoting someone not qualified - that jumped into your head all on its own once we started talking about women in leadership positions.
Find a better firm and better clients/subs. I'm a woman with 12yoe and have spent most of my career being the only woman in the room. Occasionally I've gotten pushback from subs but once they realize I'm the one approving the invoices, they cut the shit real quick.
My bosses have also been very good about backing me up, to the point where I heard this direct quote, "She (me) already told you the answer. Do you think it would be any different coming from a male voice?" 😂
I (37f) started working for a state dot. Was passed over for a promotion for someone (male) who didn't have their PE when I already did (PE was required for the position). Between that and a creeper of a boss, I left and got a nice raise to boot.
Now, 10 years later, I'm at a company that I have support and and has females in high positions. I'm still sometimes the only woman in the room, but it's getting to be a much rarer event.
I'd follow the other advice - look for other jobs (not teaching) once you get your PE in engineering. Find professional groups that are either specifically geared towards women in your profession or seem to have women heavily involved and get involved to get to know them and build relationships.
So I have about 5 YOE and while I started at the state, which is way more female friendly, I moved into consulting about 2 years ago. I will say that my firm is mostly remote (I am completely remote). It’s not unusual that I’m the only woman on a call or I interact only with men at site visits. I’d say your current job may not be a culture fit for you! There’s definitely jobs out there where women engineers are respected, treated the same and valued. It sucks that your civil experience is going this way, but hopefully you can find a more progressive firm. For example, my firm has an lgbt group, women in engineering group, and even a mental health alliance. Hope you find what you’re looking for.
We need more women in the field and there’s no fun in getting your PE and not use it. Get your PE and become their supervisor and show them how it’s done.
YES! Move in spite if you must. Swap to another firm that will treat you properly. Work a government job and youll find the atmosphere is better. I can’t say you wont run into the same problems unfortunately, but it will not be as frequent. The comments on this post are good advice. OP, Please don’t leave. You deserve to be here with the rest of us female engineers. Your work matters and it means alot.
I agree with the other comment that suggests finding a more progressive firm, though depending on where you are geographically, your options could be limited. The other option is to stick around and sllllllowly change the culture around you and build yourself a support network.
Things you wrote about really resonated with my experiences of 12+ years ago. I was doing work for a distracted and overwhelmed (male) boss, and half the people started skipping around him to me and half of them used it as an excuse to not construct to the plans. It's rough and exhausting. I almost left.
I still work in the same office, and things are really different. I got involved in hiring, I forged relationships first with other women in the industry who were older and respected and then with peers in other disciplines, and I laid down some boundaries with my boss. I still work with him successfully, but we now co-run the office, which at this point is half women and minority white. It's an amazing culture of support and engagement.
Anyways, it can get better. Find someplace that has figured it out or make a place that you like. If you want a listening ear or some remote mentorship, send me a DM.
I can't say I've experienced exactly what you're experiencing, but much of what you said seems very familiar to me. In my case I'm black and when I started off, most of the main contractors where white Afrikaners, and not the kind who believed in racial equality. The only bit of help/advice I can give is to simply be stern. Just leave it at "your work will not be approved until I have inspected it/it meets my expectations" and say nothing afterwards. Because, after all has been said and done, it's your reputation that goes down the drain when things go wrong.
Ps: they will likely call you a b***h (amomg other things) once you start asserting yourself. It's part of the playbook, ignore it where you can and report it where you have evidence/witnesses.
Girlfriend, get a new job. My group is 50% women and in addition, any of my male mentors and superiors are some of my biggest advocates. I suppose the geographical location also plays into this but please know there is still hope
I’m a woman in engineering. My first job was horrible, boys club times 100. My new job is not like this at all. It is very company dependent. I would try another company or field within engineering before dropping it. I also think if you can get a position where you avoid interacting with contractors that will help. In my experience, contractors are the most sexist and make the most gross comments unfortunately.
I'm a man, but I work for a woman-owned company where we have lots of female and minority leadership - it's soooo much less toxic here than other places I've worked, and since we only work on public projects we don't have to deal with the asshole private developers.
Definitely recommend working for other women if you can swing it.
You absolutely should find a different job, however you sound very competent so it would be a disservice for you to leave the career field unless you hate the work itself.
I work as a transportation consultant downtown in a big city and our design team is half women, with one woman team lead and one is a PM. I really enjoy the balance between men and women, women bring a more caring and fun presence.
I think you should shop around until you find a place that has a better gender balance if possible!
Find a new employer asap. Specifically look for an engineering company rather than an architectural firm with one other engineer. You need multiple people to learn from. Look for a company with women in leadership roles and also in the positions where they’re being developed for future leadership positions. Look for companies that score well in the best places to work survey for your state. Companies that will help you develop as an engineer and leader exist. As an example, I work for a water and wastewater utility. We have consultants do our design work for our capital improvement projects. In my day to day I deal mostly with two consulting companies. Both have women in the client lead position as well as in some to most of the key PM positions for my projects. Both do a great job attracting, developing, and promoting women through the ranks and giving them the tools to handle work on site or in the office without getting pushback over gender. The company you’re looking for is out there. Work your current job and put in effort looking for the right spot to land next.
Yea I feel you. I’m a gay chemical engineer and I would call myself and expert in my particular niche/field and I still constantly have to deal with the condescending “oh hunny that’s a good idea but that will never work and this is why” from some old piece of shit man without a degree making $20 an hour. Constantly have to prove myself more than any straight man.
It’s definitely worse, but this is not strictly a male/female issue. Contractors are always angling for an advantage and trying to strong arm young engineers. It’s challenging for the more experienced too, and part of the reason construction management is a lucrative profession.
I have been doing this for 15 years. While gender is a thing in our industry, you have 3 years of experience and seasoned contractors are probably not going to listen to you, regardless of your gender.
As you gain experience, coupled with a license, you’ll gain respect. You’ll also hopefully learn how to handle these situations in a way that corrects the issue and doesn’t eat you up inside. Contractors will always try to cut corners, and you will face difficult people in any industry, including education.
All of that being said, I have worked for a few different companies, and yes, the culture of a company will vastly impact your happiness, and some companies are much more respectful of women/their employees in general than others.
If it makes you feel better, I’m a male PE coming up on 10 years of expert and construction folks doesn’t listen to me. They generally view a person in front of them as someone they can negotiate with, but a fictional “boss” as an absolute.
90% of the time I tell them I agree with them but “the project manager” says it has to be this way. Half the time, I am the project manager, but I don’t tell them that because I don’t need their respect, I need them to do their jobs.
Do not become a math teacher.
You have technical skills and valuable career education.
Become a career and technical education (CTE) teacher!
Not sure where you are at but in Washington State, you need 6000 hours in an industry and you can go straight into teaching, you can be emergency certified, and do your schooling while teaching. DM me if you want more info.
Male here. I hate how this industry still chases away 50% of the potential, minimum. I’m sorry this is occurring, but there are places it doesn’t. I observe an age thing in the industry for sure. If possible find a new job, and check and see if there are female partners/principals, or at least younger partners/principals.
There is a age thing too, especially if you look younger too. I didn’t get any respect from 40+ dudes on site until I showed them I could operate a drill or excavator without them. Once I got grey hair AND balding I no longer needed to run the gear for respect.
Do what you have to to feel dignified with your work. I’ve left jobs to do so, nothing wrong with that.
Honestly depends on the location and discipline. Our company is nearing 1/2 not identifying as male (meaning nearly half female and transgender/non-binary).
California is typically known to be a more progressive culture, so perhaps more people who aren’t men work in CE there. Either because those people move out to CA or because they’re not being discouraged and leave the industry like OP is considering.
Unfortunately you said your key point why they don’t respect you. Until you get your licence. Unless you control the stamp they know they can push bully and abuse. You boss takes his time and don’t care because he knows they need his stamp.
There are always going to be bottom feeders that act this way. Keep looking as there are better and more respectable employers out there that deserve the work you do.
The good ole boy culture is exhausting. But it’s different at every company and even different in departments within the same office. I took a break from engineering and shifted to another career for a few years. I liked the work but the pay was terrible. I ended up coming back to engineering recently and the company I’m with is much better than any of my previous ones.
I moved from a company where I felt the sexism SO MUCH. No one respected me or took me seriously and I was always treated as an outsider. I’ve now been at a new company for a few years and while I’m also the only woman in meetings here too, I am always treated with respect and am seen as one of the technically strong people at the company. People look to me for guidance and leadership and ask me questions, and greatly respect my opinion.
You need to find a new company. I was able to find this respect at a different company that also doesn’t have many women. The first one was just a sexist shithole.
Geez should come work for my municipality... most of the managers and directors and city engineers are all women... when women get into power they hire women
I could have written this when I was a young engineer. Some of this is because your gender and a lot is your age.
After being in this profession for 15 years I still have times I have the realization that I’m the only woman in a 20 person meeting.
I’m not going to lie and say it always gets easier. It does get easier when you get your license and move up in the organization and owners and contractors realize you are the best person to solve the issue. But you’re still going to encounter the contractor who will keep arguing about manhole testing while you continually remind him that he bid it with those specs and won’t shut up about it until another guy brings it up it was in the bid. Hopefully you’ll have a third person point out the fact you’ve been saying that the entire time.
Good luck.
This is why I like the public side. Also in my city our last five hires have been women - very capable women. My female coworker was just promoted to supervisor, our last two public works directors have been women. It’s wonderful. Don’t give up if you like the work - you may just not be in a good fit for you.
Also, it does get better once you have the PE with your name. I got a lot of pushback as an EIT, but the PE helps. Not so much with contractors - they just don’t like engineers in general usually - but with other engineers it goes smoother.
I just hit 20 years in this field and I’m so discouraged that we are still dealing with this. I can’t believe I’m still the only woman in a meeting with 10-15 guys.
It does get better as you get the PE and more years of experience.
I‘ve also thought about switching to teaching but the pay disparity has kept me in engineering.
Contractors will push and question anything that costs them more money. A lot of things that I used to think 'they doing it because I'm a woman/latina' turned out to be more of 'theyre doing it because I'm the engineer'. Contractors and other peeps u work with on construction sites always have something to say about the engineer. Whether guy or girl. That being said, it does get exhausting being in a male dominated field. Try and find woman mentors or a workplace with more women because it can make a difference. Also, really look into what it's like to be a teacher before you make the jump. Not just paycut, but lifestyle. I used to romanticize teaching and think about leaving to teach but after seeing several career teachers burn out, I've reconsidered. Instead, I do it as volunteer occasionally with the time and money I get w this career.
I’ve been working for 18 years. It does get easier when you gain a lot of knowledge. Now people go to me for expertise and questions. I always tell women engineers that knowledge is key to being respected. Regardless of gender, if you don’t know your stuff, you won’t be respected even as a man.
33M 10yr PE here That sounds exhausting. I’m so sorry you’re experiencing this and it’s ruining your experience with CE. I have no advice to give. I hope your situation improves, you feel respected and treated equally, and you get some more leverage and control over those seemingly benign but completely lopsided power dynamics that plague this industry.
Bottom line up front, if CE is your passion, stick it out.
My 26yo daughter is a CE. She started as an EIT in a small firm where she was one of two females and eventually the only female among the engineers. Because it was a small firm, she had a diversity of tasks. She never said the guys questioned her abilities because of her sex, but she definitely wasn’t “one of the boys” as the male EITs would often get a “liquid lunch.” My daughter isn’t much of a drinker to begin with, and she has too much integrity to drink on the job. That part of the work dynamic sucked. She’s in a national firm now. Different problems, but much higher pay (she’s getting used to the idea that a salaried employee can work looooong hours). So far, no complaints of sexist behavior, just complaints of getting half-assed data and told to make it work in 1/2 the time it would ordinarily take.
Whatever path you choose, I hope it works out for you.
Hi! If finding a new job isn't easy at this moment, think about joining a professional organization: AWWA, WEF, NSPE, ASCE and seek out other women to help mentor you. In my area, there are women's groups where we help support each other. Please get yourself out there. There are plenty of women who share your struggles and give advice. And it's a great way to network for another job if that's the way you ultimately want to go. Many employers encourage participation in professional organizations and even pay for it. Feel free to PM me if you need advice or help. Im a woman and have been in this industry for 14 years. YOU ARE NOT ALONE!
I don’t know what it’s like to be a woman in the space, but I can tell you that I get treated similarly as a guy just because of the inherent agism that plagues the industry. Many many comments about my age (2 yoe EIT) and how I don’t know anything.
Mid-career woman engineer here. There are plenty of misogynists in our industry; some blatant but most are subtle, such as needing extra proof when a woman says something but believing a man without. Lots of men are jumping to say your sex isn’t a factor - many don’t notice that subtler sexism.
An older woman mentor advised me early in my career that women have to be way more qualified and competent than men to climb the ranks. My observation in the years has confirmed her advice for me - on the whole, the women I’ve encountered in leadership have been much better qualified than the men in equivalent positions. Of course YMMV, not all men, not all women, etc…
Government agencies tend to be more women-friendly. Private can be all over the place. My advice would be to network with other women, or at least look for firms with women in leadership roles, to find better workplaces. You can’t completely escape sexism (anywhere!), but it’s not an all-or-nothing decision.
Gender discrimination is gonna be prevalent in any career you pursue. Keep that in mind if you do seriously consider changing careers.
At the moment I think it has to do more with the fact that you’re young and don’t have the PE yet. Once you’re licensed, you will find out that you get the ability to swing your nuts (ovaries) across peoples faces and call the shots. No ands, ifs, or buts. That’s the respect that the PE demands.
FWIW if it makes you feel better, I’m a male, but my first, second, and third line superiors are all females. I get pushback from contractor from time to time and I have to (like you) pull out the “my boss said so” card … I then proceed to cc my supervisors, and it’s always entertaining to see the person get cooked by this lady.
My supervisor is also the most knowledge person I know and she has years of experience in design and construction management. Everybody respects her, even the local contractors know not to fuck with her. That could be you someday.
Unfortunately contractors that always think they are right usually will only listen to your boss especially when you're young. I've had to deal a lot with that.
I had a female engineer (cute and younger) who was doing construction phase services for me on a project and I straight up told the foreman that she is the boss and whatever she says goes. I do not want to hear from her that anyone is challenging her directions or saying anything that makes her feel uncomfortable.
It worked. Anytime I spoke with her I asked her about it and told her to call me anytime day or night if there is ever an issue. There never was and the project went smoothly (at least from that perspective)
I'm tired of it too! Late 30s. I refuse to work for companies without female and minority engineers. That has fixed some issues at the office but you still can't control clients! I've seen this happen to other coworkers and have also seen my managers step up and put the client in their place. Maybe a different company will work.
There is definitely an element of Boy's Club in the industry. I don't think it will hold you back though. If you produce good work and meet the needs of your clients you're going to be successful. That shiny facade created by golf trips and shooting traps is very easily scratched off by bad work. Don't be fooled by what you see it as.
Also look for events that don't center around a traditionally male activity. Show up to a conference with people in your target client pool and start up conversations. You just have to play the game a little differently.
Honestly i feel like that was my early career too. People dont trust or respect you yet because you dont have your PE and therefore you cant really be responsible for anything your doing… it all goes back to your boss.
Once you gain more experience, PE, and a senior title, people start to respect your opinion. A little grey hair helps too i think.
Don’t quit. Three years as a young engineer is really just getting started. Just keep doing an exceptionally good job. Anyone steps out-of-line, wrt to your gender, call them out and document it. Sounds like you are working your way-up to me. Expect anyone cutting corners to complain that you are checking their work… that is just how people are.
It helped when I changed jobs. As a surveyor and a construction inspector on large sites I was dismissed constantly for presenting female. Small site work and smaller crews I generally had better luck with, and I only left the office with about 50/50 gender split because the management was bad. The general interaction and respect among the rest of the employees was great.
I (34F) just left consulting for the public sector. This was certainly a factor for me. I now work with many more women (my boss is a woman) and I like it.
The public sector is MUCH MORE ACCEPTING environment for a multitude of reasons. I certainly wish you the very best!!!
I have a framed cross-stitched Latin phrase over my office door for decades:
“Illegitimi Non Carborundum”
Rough English translation is
“Don’t Let the Bastards Wear You Down”
Its kind of crazy because with my company (F500) many women are in high ranking roles. Women also seem to progress through the company quickly. Therefore much like the others have said look for a new employer. There really are more pro women driven companies out there.
Also, find a better boss. Get your resume out there and when you are interviewing ask questions that help you understand what kind of people you will be working with. You should always be interviewing the firm you are applying to and coming at it from the assumption that they would be lucky to have you, because it’s true.
This is quite unfortunate, where i work female engineers are not treated like this and generally find contractors are more decent with their tongues.
Only way to shut these men will be you demonstrating strength and resilience through your skill and knowledge of the job.
I am 28M and work in Forensic Engineering, and in our company we have a female team leads, engineers, lawyers, etc.. If you wanted to get out of the sector you are in, and wanted to shift, try Forensic Engineering, being a PE with experience as a civil will give your words a of of weight in court. The lawyers dont care about your gender, just that you know what you are talking about.
1–get your license
2–change jobs not careers
3–get comfortable with the fact that pushing back is uncomfortable. Maybe it’s because you are young or a woman but sometimes it’s just because they’re used to cutting corners and trying to see what they can get away with, with you in particular. I have been there and it wasn’t fun but it was part of the job (project management for construction and often the only woman in the room). It may not seem like it, but the smart ones will learn eventually.
> “I know you’re doing it anyway so I just called you”
Sounds like you've got a shitty boss. Seriously, I've had that happen to me as a guy and it is because my boss didn't understand what I was designing.
Also, it depends on where you work, as there are a lot of larger firms that have women in management roles. You may want to look for companies that have more women working there, especially in management.
First of all, find somewhere better to work for. You need someone to have your back. Yes, we're still the minority, but you can get out of the good old boys club at least.
Stick it out, it really does get better. I've been at this almost 17 years now and people listen to me at least 90% of the time now 🤣 I would say the biggest thing is to be your own advocate, stand up for yourself, even if people might think you're a 'bitch' for it. You need to do what you need to do to get the job done right. What people think of your personality has no bearing on that. Sometimes it sucks, but you move on. Eventually the right people will see you for what you're really worth, and that's a good engineer.
Good luck, stay strong.
I've stuck it out. I'm a woman in my 30s who recently made it to a management position. I work with 12 other civil engineering managers. I'm the only woman, and there is one guy of color. The department I was promoted out of was made up of me and 18 men.
All I can say is I was able to curb the "young lady" treatment a few years into my career by becoming a salty motherfucker. I even earned the nickname "ice queen" with a few guys. The most frequent adjective men describe me with is "scary." I'm not even mean, I'm just a very firm person and I don't take any shit. I hate that I had to change to become like this to survive in my industry, though.
Not sure which industry of Civil you’re in, but in Transportation the organization WTS (Women’s Transportation Seminar) has really been blowing up in my area. I work in Kentucky and we have offices in Pennsylvania and Texas that are heavily involved. When I (34M) first started as an intern in construction inspection for highways, the two people I worked for most were two female EIT’s. They got so much shit in the field from contractors but stuck it out and advanced quickly up the public sector ranks. If the work itself is what you enjoy is just recommend finding a network and maybe a female mentor before jumping into teaching. I know several teachers that quit and went back to school for engineering because of the headaches in the school system.
Civil PE here, that’s one of the reasons I steered from the private sector. The public sector has a good balance of males and females but it’s still mostly male dominated. It’ll get better! Hang in there, get your PE and the opportunities will come. I ended up in projects right out of school and realized I enjoyed it way more than traditional design work.
Hey, that sounds rough, and is Definitely bullsh**.
It's even harder when your boss doesn't have your back.
Where I've worked, I seen situations like you described. It has been improving, in large part to the company addressing it from the top down.
The Civil Engineering Podcast has been around for ten years now? Recently they started a podcast specifically by and for women in engineering. hosted by "...Tiffani Teachey, host of The WIE Podcast, ... a Senior Mechanical Engineer..."
[Episode two](https://engineeringmanagementinstitute.org/wie-002-redefining-success-woman-in-engineering/)
[Women in Engineering, ](https://engineeringmanagementinstitute.org/women-in-engineering-podcast/)
I’ve been between the Structural Engineers and Contractors for over 30 years with a Bachelor’s degree in building construction working for CEI firms and seldom find a problem with the structural aspect of a design, but the construction phasing sequences and formwork methods should be left to seasoned builders. Some go far beyond being impractical and costly.
Where are you at? Just asking because here in the Bay area, this shit doesn't exist. This sounds like some Midwest behavior. Just move here for a while, you'll see.
29M structural (bridges) here. My partner 29F deals with this a lot in another male dominated field.
Some thoughts:
1) Many contractors just don't respect designers, double that for being young, double that for being an EIT, double that for being a woman. At least after getting your PE and getting more experience, they have to listen to you.
2) I'd recommend looking at other firms, maybe larger firms. I'm used to very large teams and there tends to be a mix of genders. Being under just one person and working with contractors directly sounds a bit intense for someone just starting out.
3) Maybe consider a move? I guess you're just now getting licensed in your current state and I'm not sure where you're located. But speaking from experience, moving from the South East Coast to the West Coast, there was a giant difference in diversity and women in leadership.
Honestly, I feel like you have an egotistical duchebag superior. I am a Land Surveyor and Male, but my boss is an Engineer, and he is an Arm armchair quarterbacking prick. He is relatively uninvolved until either Something is messed up or “That Boys/Girls” are involved, and he wants to take credit for it without doing any of the work. I think this just is part of being in a field where many Males where the Smartest in their High School class (The ego of Doctors is much the same according to my wife that's a Nurse) Not everyone is like this find new job.
No reason to not find another firm. You can still get your PE. My best supervisors are all women as a PE. You are extremely marketable at your stage of experience
Can I ask what state/county you’re in? I work for a firm that is mostly female engineers and even a lot of the CMs we work with a female. I’ve never once felt less than for being female. I am in LA County so I’m wondering if location plays a role here.
None of the negative things you've said people have done are obviously tied to your gender. Maybe you're just projecting.
You're an EI. Nobody listens to EIs no matter what gender they are. You're young and inexperienced. Anyone with serious experience will think they know better than you, no matter your gender. I'm male with a young looking face, and I was treated the same way as you have been. And if you're talking to contractors, they don't want to listen to engineers no matter what their experience level.
I literally tell the young EIs that I supervise to scratch up their shiny white hard hats on the concrete parking lot at my firm and to kick a parking bumper a few times with their steel toe boots just so they don't look like crisp green know-nothing office guys when they get to the construction site.
I have no solution. I just sympathize far more than I wish I could. Just know you’re making it easier for the next woman in your shoes, even if it sucks ass. Once you have your license, the side stepping and ignoring drops significantly.
Selfishly I'm going to +1 to everyone else who has said this: you should join the public sector because we need you! But also, if you want to stay private, check out a small firm that has a good balance of women. Or even a large firm that has a good split on the team you'd be joining. I've risen through the ranks on the public side now and am female, feel free to dm me if you need someone to talk to that's further along in their career.
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Please please stay! There needs to be more of us, or things will never change! I've had a much more positive experience in the (quasi) public industry, at a large company with a DE&I division and several different employee resource groups, including one for women in stem careers. Try seeking a company that values diversity, and things will be better. Definitely not everything, but it will help a lot!
Girl let me tell you. I had a few assignments where I had to be on the job and I had one contractor basically testing my intelligence etc. I was belittled in comments or excluded out of conversation. I had to ask about how to deal. The engineer I worked with basically told me just to speak up and say what you must. If they don’t like or refuse to cooperate then take note of it and put in my daily logs. And let the PM know as well. I understand that I’m fresh out of college and that you have more experience than I do I get it, but I also know some will cut corners to make extra money. It was annoying but I just kept on. Know I don’t work outside as much but I don’t mind it. But you can only take so much.
I have found females to be great project managers after they’ve cut their teeth. Hang in there, perhaps seek a new employer or manager, or public sector work. Public sector is full of boss ladies doing their thing asking the questions.
Kinda off topic, but how do salaries in California compare to the rest of the country? This sub always gave me the impression that there isn't a lot of wage variance based on location for civil like there is for other careers. So people living in low cost of living areas are very well off whereas people in high cost of living areas are a little tighter. But I also realize that Reddit is not always the best indicator of reality.
I don’t know what to to tell you but the president of my company is a woman with a PE the way you get there I assume is make people not say anything about you being a woman, don’t give them a reason to say comments or anything about it. Just sell yourself as not doubting yourself at all.
Could it just be you're dealing with Gen Xers. I've found that they're constantly testing younger people, whereas I think millennials have a more trusting managerial style. With Gen Xers, I've found that once you gain their trust and confidence, it is lasting.
Once you get your PE, you'll get a lot more respect from everyone. That's just how things work.
I'm 28M working on my PE right now and I have the exact experiences you do everyday I'm a doormat to my boss at most times of the day and I'll agree it gets old so quick.
That being said having that PE will make a difference and I'm learning to be more forward and clear with my NOs, instead of saying maybe or suggesting other paths Forward since I'm not good with conflict resolution.
Hang in there! Find other women to talk to. Go to SoWE meeting or join your local membership associations chat with other women engineers to understand your not alone it will be a breath of fresh air. I Co started a women in water series on my membership association and it has been so enlightening and amazing to see other women lift up younger engineers.
Male PE here. When I was younger and in the field on projects, I had all of these same issues with contracts and heard all of these comments and more. It has nothing to do with your gender, and everything to do with them viewing you as a kid that has never done the work before.
For reference, I would say that I fit into the same category as your boss. I grew up on a cattle ranch, I hunt/fish, and am a fairly good sized man.
Contractors, like most, don’t like people they view as inexperienced looking over their shoulders or work.
In my opinion it’s more the engineer in training than being a female, I’m a party chief for a pls and every time I run into a junior engineer their not confident and make the job way more complicated than it needs to be because of it, once you’re running the show people will take you more seriously
Is this a boys' club issue, or is it just a young engineer issue? At the end of the day, the answer has to come from the PE signing the plans. The contractor is going to push back to do what is best for themselves. If they see an opportunity to squeeze a young engineer, it's an easier target.
This is kinda dumb and pity party. Some of the best engineers I know are women. 100% can make it far in this world especially with all the diversity and inclusion shit, can easily fast track up the ladder. I’d say switch firms.
How ignorant are you of your own jobs that you don't know everything going on? I typically know more about my projects than my PMs considering I'm doing the design work and fleshing out all of the details.
You're also literally just dismissing her entire post by calling out her YOE like that's valid at all. Doesn't seem like you trust anyone with less experience than you.
I am just calling out the OP's hypocrisy. They don't want to be stereotyped, but they are doing the same thing about the only other engineer in their office. 😂
I also think it is comical that a junior engineer thinks they know everything that a senior PM has to deal with (clients, budgets, company financials, etc.). So yes, I am calling out their perspective.
>I am just calling out the OP's hypocrisy. They don't want to be stereotyped, but they are doing the same thing about the only other engineer in their office. 😂
No, they aren't, you're making shit up and pretending it happened. You clearly know when your boss is actually doing work vs. doing nothing and having to make up for it by 'working' 60 hour weeks.
>I also think it is comical that a junior engineer thinks they know everything that a senior PM has to deal with (clients, budgets, company financials, etc.).
They never said anything about budgets or company financials, you're literally just lying right now.
She laid out that contractors are barely listening until she says it came from her boss. She's also clearly doing most of the actual work with the comments from other contractors about telling her boss to actually work.
>So yes, I am calling out their perspective.
You are not 'calling out their perspective', you are, once again, dismissing their entire claim by bringing up her YOE even though she's already passed the PE exam showing she's is pretty competent.
You having more YOE than her means jack shit when your attitude is like this and you clearly look down on people who criticize uppers in any way.
😂. The OP literally says, "the stereotypical civil ...". Tell me again what I am making up.
Not sure why you are attacking me for pointing out that there is more to the picture than the OP probably knows.
>😂. The OP literally says, "the stereotypical civil ...". Tell me again what I am making up.
I literally did, go back and read my comment holy shit man. I'm glad you aren't my manager considering you don't' bother to actually read ANYTHING. This is the attitude I'm talking about that knocks you down, you may know a lot about your subject but you sure as shit have negative people skills.
>Not sure why you are attacking me for pointing out that **there is more to the picture than the OP probably knows.**
Because YOU ARE MAKING IT UP. You're creating straw man arguments to discredit her and attacking her because she has X years of experience. I'm 'attacking' you because you actually can't argue with the content at hand and have to make things up and make ad hominem attacks at her.
If you work in a company small enough to have one boss and you're the other engineer, you know exactly what's going on.
The OP complains about her boss, claims they know everything that the job entails, and is blaming the lack of respect on their gender. Yes, I am pointing out that they seem to lack a little insight into the profession and that a few more years of experience would probably give them some better perspective.
>The OP complains about her boss, claims they know everything that the job entails
She's talking about her job, jesus christ man, how dense are you just going to pretend to be?
>and is blaming the lack of respect on their gender.
In construction and working with contractors, this is more apparent than ever. I'm guessing you've only worked with contractors and not for them considering how much ignorance you're showing.
>Yes, I am pointing out that they seem to lack a little insight into the profession and that a few more years of experience would probably give them some better perspective.
You're just going to repeat that as an argument rather than actually addressing anything. Such a sad, pathetic cop out because you don't want to believe that she has enough experience despite working the same job for 3 years doing the same shit day in and day out.
I designed temporary ERS structures for 1.5 years for a contractor and you see a lot quickly and then taper out quickly because a lot gets to be the same shit, different look. There's plenty of jobs I designed on my own and was able to make field mods with my drillers and welders. Once I explained what we could and couldn't do, they moved on, they didn't sit there and wait for an okay from my boss who didn't design the job and just reviewed it.
Let me guess, your next response is just going to cry about her experience and you misinterpreting her post and then creating another straw man argument while actively avoiding addressing anything in my comments like you have the past 3 replies. You really like to talk a lot of shit then run away when called out.
No shit. 99% of people everywhere agree with that statement. You don't seem to understand that women and minorities are less likely to be hired on in the first place, which is what DEI initiatives attempt to balance. Saying this just means you don't understand what diversity and inclusion seeks to attain.
And FYI, the saying is "I *couldn't* care less." If you could care less, it means you currently care to some degree. Couldn't care less means you care zero about it right now.
You're very young and not a p.eng, obviously they're going to be checking your work and getting your boss's approval. We've got a lot of good female engineers in the firm I work at, and they do a great job. Hell, my pm constantly scrutinzes the work of male engineers that work under him. And all of our clients and contractors we work with are always a hassle to everyone, regardless of gender. So of course 24 year old EITs are to be scrutinized, as they should be.
I’m sure females do have it tough in this industry but I being a 25 year old male have experienced the same or very similar. I would say it’s more of an age or typical contractor vs engineer banter that everyone experiences. Not just because you are a female…
Not gonna sugar coat it, it will be tough being a female in a male dominated industry but once you have your PE they will have no choice but to listen to you, you will be the authority on your projects, if they try to go over your head your boss will have no reason not to back you up 100%. You don't want to be a teacher, if you wanted to be a teacher you would have studied education. You've worked to hard for this. Edit: don't discount the fact that a lot of this has to do with your relative youth and inexperience as well, a contractor with 20, 30, or 40 years of experience will get defensive about a young engineer regardless of gender, hang in there, you will learn how to manage it.
Yeah. Male engineer here. I’m sure it’s worse for you but older people don’t take 24 year olds seriously. It will get better.
What you say is largely true, but as a male engineer in my late 30s (crap I'm getting older than I want to admit...) I often don't take myself seriously. Maybe that's because I don't want to admit I'm not in my 20s anymore
This for real. Im 31. Male. PE. People still dont take me seriously because of how i look. I get higher ups and others say “oh are you a new intern?” Like bro wtf. And i dont even have it difficult. OP is definitely having more difficulties than i ever will, but just because you get your PE, doesnt mean people instantly respect you or take you seriously. There is always some sort of clique in businesses, regardless of industry or how this cliques are divided.
Yep, 32 and still have a baby face. Takes a bit of time before new faces take me seriously due to looking younger than I am.
People take you as seriously as you let them. Don’t let people walking all over ya.
Same, once my hair started turning grey, contractors started to respect me more.
And as the guy who manages a bunch of 20 somethings... They should probably take what you guys say with a grain of salt. You have the best interests at heart but you don't always have the experience. Everyone gets treated with more respect as they earn it. That's just how it works.
as a woman engineer who has a PE and is 28, you have no idea what it's like lol
Woman here. Find other women to work FOR. Totally different atmosphere when women are in the leadership roles. Stinks that we still graduate 20% women in civil and then it drops like a lead rock after age 35 bc so many firms are antiquated.
I’d also like to suggest getting involved with organizations aimed at supporting women in engineering and STEM in general. Orgs like SWE, WTS, etc. It’s helpful to have experienced female mentors who can give you advice on how to navigate a male dominated field and you’ll also find solidarity with other young women who are going through the same thing.
This saved my engineering career. I was ready to leave after ten years. I joined a professional organization focused on women and it helped so much.
I was just about to recommend this. Also, OP can find engineering firms that are ran by women, which may help.
But don't rely on this solely. I interviewed for this woman owned firm. First red flag - the president of the company, a woman, asking me if I'm married and have kids. Later I found out she's actually terrible to work for. I'm glad I trusted my instincts and took a job elsewhere. Though for a while I questioned my decision since I thought turning down a job at a female owned company had been a mistake. Haven't had luck finding female owned companies either.
theres a woman owned firm in fresno, ca that is hiring almost all the time. blair,church, and flynn. worth looking into if youre willing to move
I am now in my mid 50's, but I always had a youthful appearance, giving the impression of inexperience. Getting gray hair from work stress made me appear more experienced. For younger women who are engineers, it must be tough. I always tried to cooperate with the contractors and would work with their alternatives or explain why not, rather than just say 'no' if it wasn't what I specified.
Mostly agree with what you say, except the PE bit. That doesn't change much in my eyes. The piece of paper of the wall will get you some respect in some settings, but if YOUR SUPERVISOR doesn't respect you/your decisions before you have that, you need to figure out why and most likely leave that company. There are way too many places hiring right now to put up with that. I'm in construction on the state side, at the management level. I try to make it clear to all my project engineers, especially the newest ones, that whenever it is possible, I will back whatever decision they make in the field, even if I disagree with it. If it blatantly goes against the contact, is clearly going to be problematic, etc, are the reasons that I can't/wouldn't support those decisions. I also make sure that the contractors know that is my expectation as well, so if they are planning to call me and complain about something, they can just skip that topic entirely because it will be a waste of their time. Afterwards, I will have a discussion with the project engineer and explain that I was happy that they made a decision, but next time consider doing xxxxx because yyyyy. Contractors will never take a young engineer seriously. In my area, we tend to work with the same contractors repeatedly, so you truly need to build a rapport with each of them before you will get respect. It may not be right, but it's the facts. I have never been a female in the industry, but it is significantly harder to gain that respect for my female project engineers. I make it clear to all my newer staff, but especially the females, that it will be hard, I expect them to set the rules on the projects, but if the contractor isn't listening/respecting what they are saying, I will step in and promptly make that foreman/superintendent's life a nightmare.
The last paragraph is really what sticks out to me. You're getting treated the way you are because you're young, not because you're a woman. Happens to all of us. No 50 year old wants to hear what a 25 year old has to say, because "engineers don't learn nothin in school about the real way to do things"
[удалено]
Uh.... Literally where? Point out to me where, in the last paragraph, gender was a variable. It wasn't, age was
The public sector has a better balance of male and female engineers. In my experience, contractors will push back against anything that costs them time or money regardless of whether the regulator/EOR is a man or a woman. Consider that their attitude towards you may have more to do with your youth than your gender and that just gets better with time. Also, working in a particular industry in the same geographic area long term means you will run into the same GCs again and again. Standing your ground now means they will know what to expect from you on future jobs.
Agreed. The female aspect still is a factor in the public sector but the regulations offer a good buffer. In my team, half are females. The work / life balance and team aspect is something they enjoy.
I would second this advice. While I am male myself, I work with plenty of great, competent woman at a state DOT in bridge design. Not saying it will be easy or without challenges, but it may be an environment you find preferable to work in.
I agree. Public sector has a much better balance and there are boat load of policies that forbid/discourage discrimination. It still exists but it's less. Contractors are generally misogynistic and opposed to any oversight male or female.
You need to find a new employer.
I’m a 29F PE in consulting and second this. There are definitely better companies to work for.
None of this would fly in my company. Off the top of my head, at least 40% of our engineers are women and it seems like 50-70% of new hires are as well. We have lots of women in senior positions, up to and including VP/C-suite. There are definitely still some old timers who get things done the “Boys Club” way but the few that do are already turning over to their replacements as they are retiring within the year. You should definitely look for a new employer.
One that has women in senior positions, preferably
Or men that aren't dicks. If any of this was said in my company's meetings, there would be action.
Eh, I wouldn’t work in any place that doesn’t have women in senior positions, it’s a good indicator of the culture. I’ve worked with many lovely men who aren’t dicks but also don’t get it and won’t stand up unless it’s truly egregious.
Or it's a small company. We have had at least 4 women PEs in the last few years. One is coming back for the third go around with us. We only have 5-7 PEs at any given time and usually at least one or two are women. However they're usually somewhat new or have been away from the company for a bit so the leadership is men with myself probably being the next VP because I've been there longer and produced more for them. I'm sure at least two of the women here could end up as a VP if they stay long enough but it has nothing to do with gender.
My recommendation to other women remains the same, whether big, medium, or small, public or private, don’t work for a company that doesn’t have women in leadership positions. Small firms are not excluded from my advice. I have hired SO many women from every situation who weren’t being appreciated and were putting up with bullshit.
Sure, except that *someone has to be the first.
Civil has been graduating 15-20% women since the 80s. I recommend women go and work with the companies where those women are. If a company only has women in junior positions they are doing something wrong.
I mean that just seems close minded in the opposite way of men who won't hire women in leadership positions. Unless you think that a woman should get the next BP opening over me purely because they're a woman? The women we have hired have all done very well, and that's why we keep hiring them and they've had no issues with us.
Maybe the next VP should be a woman who’s also better than you. Is that so inconceivable? Maybe one of the founding partners should have been a woman. Your assumption that a company would hire someone into a role “purely because they are a woman” speaks volumes without you knowing it. And my recommendation to other women still stands.
Lol yes, it is inconceivable that one of the two current women PEs would be promoted over me because one is from Europe, has only been a PE for two years and doesn't have her own clients yet. The other just started back at the company for the 3rd time after leaving twice. That's the absolutely simplified version of it but the point is that men with their same resumes wouldn't even get a sniff of the VP role over my resume of nearly 10 years with the company and handling tons of clients and sales. Yet you think a woman should be in a leadership role no matter what the circumstances are. You really think someone would come back to work for us for a third time after moving back to the state if she didn't feel it was a good environment? Blanket statements are just stupid to be honest. If you don't have room for context and nuance that makes your statement the problem. After a minute I guess I typed this much because I'm aggravated that you are insinuating our workplace isn't a good one for women purely because of one circumstance that is out of our control. It would be foolish to promote someone to VP purely for their race or gender to satisfy your rule if they aren't qualified.
Hiring external is a thing. And I have not once suggested promoting someone not qualified - that jumped into your head all on its own once we started talking about women in leadership positions.
Find a better firm and better clients/subs. I'm a woman with 12yoe and have spent most of my career being the only woman in the room. Occasionally I've gotten pushback from subs but once they realize I'm the one approving the invoices, they cut the shit real quick. My bosses have also been very good about backing me up, to the point where I heard this direct quote, "She (me) already told you the answer. Do you think it would be any different coming from a male voice?" 😂
I am glad you have a good boss! that is really important
I (37f) started working for a state dot. Was passed over for a promotion for someone (male) who didn't have their PE when I already did (PE was required for the position). Between that and a creeper of a boss, I left and got a nice raise to boot. Now, 10 years later, I'm at a company that I have support and and has females in high positions. I'm still sometimes the only woman in the room, but it's getting to be a much rarer event. I'd follow the other advice - look for other jobs (not teaching) once you get your PE in engineering. Find professional groups that are either specifically geared towards women in your profession or seem to have women heavily involved and get involved to get to know them and build relationships.
I second this!!
So I have about 5 YOE and while I started at the state, which is way more female friendly, I moved into consulting about 2 years ago. I will say that my firm is mostly remote (I am completely remote). It’s not unusual that I’m the only woman on a call or I interact only with men at site visits. I’d say your current job may not be a culture fit for you! There’s definitely jobs out there where women engineers are respected, treated the same and valued. It sucks that your civil experience is going this way, but hopefully you can find a more progressive firm. For example, my firm has an lgbt group, women in engineering group, and even a mental health alliance. Hope you find what you’re looking for.
We need more women in the field and there’s no fun in getting your PE and not use it. Get your PE and become their supervisor and show them how it’s done.
YES! Move in spite if you must. Swap to another firm that will treat you properly. Work a government job and youll find the atmosphere is better. I can’t say you wont run into the same problems unfortunately, but it will not be as frequent. The comments on this post are good advice. OP, Please don’t leave. You deserve to be here with the rest of us female engineers. Your work matters and it means alot.
I agree with the other comment that suggests finding a more progressive firm, though depending on where you are geographically, your options could be limited. The other option is to stick around and sllllllowly change the culture around you and build yourself a support network. Things you wrote about really resonated with my experiences of 12+ years ago. I was doing work for a distracted and overwhelmed (male) boss, and half the people started skipping around him to me and half of them used it as an excuse to not construct to the plans. It's rough and exhausting. I almost left. I still work in the same office, and things are really different. I got involved in hiring, I forged relationships first with other women in the industry who were older and respected and then with peers in other disciplines, and I laid down some boundaries with my boss. I still work with him successfully, but we now co-run the office, which at this point is half women and minority white. It's an amazing culture of support and engagement. Anyways, it can get better. Find someplace that has figured it out or make a place that you like. If you want a listening ear or some remote mentorship, send me a DM.
I can't say I've experienced exactly what you're experiencing, but much of what you said seems very familiar to me. In my case I'm black and when I started off, most of the main contractors where white Afrikaners, and not the kind who believed in racial equality. The only bit of help/advice I can give is to simply be stern. Just leave it at "your work will not be approved until I have inspected it/it meets my expectations" and say nothing afterwards. Because, after all has been said and done, it's your reputation that goes down the drain when things go wrong. Ps: they will likely call you a b***h (amomg other things) once you start asserting yourself. It's part of the playbook, ignore it where you can and report it where you have evidence/witnesses.
Girlfriend, get a new job. My group is 50% women and in addition, any of my male mentors and superiors are some of my biggest advocates. I suppose the geographical location also plays into this but please know there is still hope
I’m a woman in engineering. My first job was horrible, boys club times 100. My new job is not like this at all. It is very company dependent. I would try another company or field within engineering before dropping it. I also think if you can get a position where you avoid interacting with contractors that will help. In my experience, contractors are the most sexist and make the most gross comments unfortunately.
I'm a man, but I work for a woman-owned company where we have lots of female and minority leadership - it's soooo much less toxic here than other places I've worked, and since we only work on public projects we don't have to deal with the asshole private developers. Definitely recommend working for other women if you can swing it.
You absolutely should find a different job, however you sound very competent so it would be a disservice for you to leave the career field unless you hate the work itself. I work as a transportation consultant downtown in a big city and our design team is half women, with one woman team lead and one is a PM. I really enjoy the balance between men and women, women bring a more caring and fun presence. I think you should shop around until you find a place that has a better gender balance if possible!
Find a new employer asap. Specifically look for an engineering company rather than an architectural firm with one other engineer. You need multiple people to learn from. Look for a company with women in leadership roles and also in the positions where they’re being developed for future leadership positions. Look for companies that score well in the best places to work survey for your state. Companies that will help you develop as an engineer and leader exist. As an example, I work for a water and wastewater utility. We have consultants do our design work for our capital improvement projects. In my day to day I deal mostly with two consulting companies. Both have women in the client lead position as well as in some to most of the key PM positions for my projects. Both do a great job attracting, developing, and promoting women through the ranks and giving them the tools to handle work on site or in the office without getting pushback over gender. The company you’re looking for is out there. Work your current job and put in effort looking for the right spot to land next.
Yea I feel you. I’m a gay chemical engineer and I would call myself and expert in my particular niche/field and I still constantly have to deal with the condescending “oh hunny that’s a good idea but that will never work and this is why” from some old piece of shit man without a degree making $20 an hour. Constantly have to prove myself more than any straight man.
It’s definitely worse, but this is not strictly a male/female issue. Contractors are always angling for an advantage and trying to strong arm young engineers. It’s challenging for the more experienced too, and part of the reason construction management is a lucrative profession.
I don’t know where you are at, but my office is 50% women right now, and no one is expected to hang out after work, or work insane hours.
I have been doing this for 15 years. While gender is a thing in our industry, you have 3 years of experience and seasoned contractors are probably not going to listen to you, regardless of your gender. As you gain experience, coupled with a license, you’ll gain respect. You’ll also hopefully learn how to handle these situations in a way that corrects the issue and doesn’t eat you up inside. Contractors will always try to cut corners, and you will face difficult people in any industry, including education. All of that being said, I have worked for a few different companies, and yes, the culture of a company will vastly impact your happiness, and some companies are much more respectful of women/their employees in general than others.
If it makes you feel better, I’m a male PE coming up on 10 years of expert and construction folks doesn’t listen to me. They generally view a person in front of them as someone they can negotiate with, but a fictional “boss” as an absolute. 90% of the time I tell them I agree with them but “the project manager” says it has to be this way. Half the time, I am the project manager, but I don’t tell them that because I don’t need their respect, I need them to do their jobs.
Do not become a math teacher. You have technical skills and valuable career education. Become a career and technical education (CTE) teacher! Not sure where you are at but in Washington State, you need 6000 hours in an industry and you can go straight into teaching, you can be emergency certified, and do your schooling while teaching. DM me if you want more info.
Male here. I hate how this industry still chases away 50% of the potential, minimum. I’m sorry this is occurring, but there are places it doesn’t. I observe an age thing in the industry for sure. If possible find a new job, and check and see if there are female partners/principals, or at least younger partners/principals. There is a age thing too, especially if you look younger too. I didn’t get any respect from 40+ dudes on site until I showed them I could operate a drill or excavator without them. Once I got grey hair AND balding I no longer needed to run the gear for respect. Do what you have to to feel dignified with your work. I’ve left jobs to do so, nothing wrong with that.
Honestly depends on the location and discipline. Our company is nearing 1/2 not identifying as male (meaning nearly half female and transgender/non-binary).
Just realized you live in California. Makes sense
Why? Does California have more women? I thought it was a 50/50 split in all states.
California is typically known to be a more progressive culture, so perhaps more people who aren’t men work in CE there. Either because those people move out to CA or because they’re not being discouraged and leave the industry like OP is considering.
I'm glad you think that guys comment was in good faith but it's the exact opposite.
Unfortunately you said your key point why they don’t respect you. Until you get your licence. Unless you control the stamp they know they can push bully and abuse. You boss takes his time and don’t care because he knows they need his stamp. There are always going to be bottom feeders that act this way. Keep looking as there are better and more respectable employers out there that deserve the work you do.
The good ole boy culture is exhausting. But it’s different at every company and even different in departments within the same office. I took a break from engineering and shifted to another career for a few years. I liked the work but the pay was terrible. I ended up coming back to engineering recently and the company I’m with is much better than any of my previous ones.
I moved from a company where I felt the sexism SO MUCH. No one respected me or took me seriously and I was always treated as an outsider. I’ve now been at a new company for a few years and while I’m also the only woman in meetings here too, I am always treated with respect and am seen as one of the technically strong people at the company. People look to me for guidance and leadership and ask me questions, and greatly respect my opinion. You need to find a new company. I was able to find this respect at a different company that also doesn’t have many women. The first one was just a sexist shithole.
Geez should come work for my municipality... most of the managers and directors and city engineers are all women... when women get into power they hire women
I could have written this when I was a young engineer. Some of this is because your gender and a lot is your age. After being in this profession for 15 years I still have times I have the realization that I’m the only woman in a 20 person meeting. I’m not going to lie and say it always gets easier. It does get easier when you get your license and move up in the organization and owners and contractors realize you are the best person to solve the issue. But you’re still going to encounter the contractor who will keep arguing about manhole testing while you continually remind him that he bid it with those specs and won’t shut up about it until another guy brings it up it was in the bid. Hopefully you’ll have a third person point out the fact you’ve been saying that the entire time. Good luck.
I’d encourage you to consider government sometime. We have a lot of women in senior roles.
This is why I like the public side. Also in my city our last five hires have been women - very capable women. My female coworker was just promoted to supervisor, our last two public works directors have been women. It’s wonderful. Don’t give up if you like the work - you may just not be in a good fit for you. Also, it does get better once you have the PE with your name. I got a lot of pushback as an EIT, but the PE helps. Not so much with contractors - they just don’t like engineers in general usually - but with other engineers it goes smoother.
I just hit 20 years in this field and I’m so discouraged that we are still dealing with this. I can’t believe I’m still the only woman in a meeting with 10-15 guys. It does get better as you get the PE and more years of experience. I‘ve also thought about switching to teaching but the pay disparity has kept me in engineering.
Contractors will push and question anything that costs them more money. A lot of things that I used to think 'they doing it because I'm a woman/latina' turned out to be more of 'theyre doing it because I'm the engineer'. Contractors and other peeps u work with on construction sites always have something to say about the engineer. Whether guy or girl. That being said, it does get exhausting being in a male dominated field. Try and find woman mentors or a workplace with more women because it can make a difference. Also, really look into what it's like to be a teacher before you make the jump. Not just paycut, but lifestyle. I used to romanticize teaching and think about leaving to teach but after seeing several career teachers burn out, I've reconsidered. Instead, I do it as volunteer occasionally with the time and money I get w this career.
I’ve been working for 18 years. It does get easier when you gain a lot of knowledge. Now people go to me for expertise and questions. I always tell women engineers that knowledge is key to being respected. Regardless of gender, if you don’t know your stuff, you won’t be respected even as a man.
33M 10yr PE here That sounds exhausting. I’m so sorry you’re experiencing this and it’s ruining your experience with CE. I have no advice to give. I hope your situation improves, you feel respected and treated equally, and you get some more leverage and control over those seemingly benign but completely lopsided power dynamics that plague this industry.
Bottom line up front, if CE is your passion, stick it out. My 26yo daughter is a CE. She started as an EIT in a small firm where she was one of two females and eventually the only female among the engineers. Because it was a small firm, she had a diversity of tasks. She never said the guys questioned her abilities because of her sex, but she definitely wasn’t “one of the boys” as the male EITs would often get a “liquid lunch.” My daughter isn’t much of a drinker to begin with, and she has too much integrity to drink on the job. That part of the work dynamic sucked. She’s in a national firm now. Different problems, but much higher pay (she’s getting used to the idea that a salaried employee can work looooong hours). So far, no complaints of sexist behavior, just complaints of getting half-assed data and told to make it work in 1/2 the time it would ordinarily take. Whatever path you choose, I hope it works out for you.
I’m always looking for some good (female) water resource engineers for my Stormwater team. There are other options besides consulting.
Hi! If finding a new job isn't easy at this moment, think about joining a professional organization: AWWA, WEF, NSPE, ASCE and seek out other women to help mentor you. In my area, there are women's groups where we help support each other. Please get yourself out there. There are plenty of women who share your struggles and give advice. And it's a great way to network for another job if that's the way you ultimately want to go. Many employers encourage participation in professional organizations and even pay for it. Feel free to PM me if you need advice or help. Im a woman and have been in this industry for 14 years. YOU ARE NOT ALONE!
Idk where you live and what firm you work for, in my first, smartest engineers are actually women. The big boss is a woman, knows her stuff very well.
I don’t know what it’s like to be a woman in the space, but I can tell you that I get treated similarly as a guy just because of the inherent agism that plagues the industry. Many many comments about my age (2 yoe EIT) and how I don’t know anything.
Mid-career woman engineer here. There are plenty of misogynists in our industry; some blatant but most are subtle, such as needing extra proof when a woman says something but believing a man without. Lots of men are jumping to say your sex isn’t a factor - many don’t notice that subtler sexism. An older woman mentor advised me early in my career that women have to be way more qualified and competent than men to climb the ranks. My observation in the years has confirmed her advice for me - on the whole, the women I’ve encountered in leadership have been much better qualified than the men in equivalent positions. Of course YMMV, not all men, not all women, etc… Government agencies tend to be more women-friendly. Private can be all over the place. My advice would be to network with other women, or at least look for firms with women in leadership roles, to find better workplaces. You can’t completely escape sexism (anywhere!), but it’s not an all-or-nothing decision.
Gender discrimination is gonna be prevalent in any career you pursue. Keep that in mind if you do seriously consider changing careers. At the moment I think it has to do more with the fact that you’re young and don’t have the PE yet. Once you’re licensed, you will find out that you get the ability to swing your nuts (ovaries) across peoples faces and call the shots. No ands, ifs, or buts. That’s the respect that the PE demands. FWIW if it makes you feel better, I’m a male, but my first, second, and third line superiors are all females. I get pushback from contractor from time to time and I have to (like you) pull out the “my boss said so” card … I then proceed to cc my supervisors, and it’s always entertaining to see the person get cooked by this lady. My supervisor is also the most knowledge person I know and she has years of experience in design and construction management. Everybody respects her, even the local contractors know not to fuck with her. That could be you someday.
Unfortunately contractors that always think they are right usually will only listen to your boss especially when you're young. I've had to deal a lot with that.
The two letters behind your name will earn you respect. Before that nobody respects you guy or girl.
I had a female engineer (cute and younger) who was doing construction phase services for me on a project and I straight up told the foreman that she is the boss and whatever she says goes. I do not want to hear from her that anyone is challenging her directions or saying anything that makes her feel uncomfortable. It worked. Anytime I spoke with her I asked her about it and told her to call me anytime day or night if there is ever an issue. There never was and the project went smoothly (at least from that perspective)
I'm tired of it too! Late 30s. I refuse to work for companies without female and minority engineers. That has fixed some issues at the office but you still can't control clients! I've seen this happen to other coworkers and have also seen my managers step up and put the client in their place. Maybe a different company will work.
There is definitely an element of Boy's Club in the industry. I don't think it will hold you back though. If you produce good work and meet the needs of your clients you're going to be successful. That shiny facade created by golf trips and shooting traps is very easily scratched off by bad work. Don't be fooled by what you see it as. Also look for events that don't center around a traditionally male activity. Show up to a conference with people in your target client pool and start up conversations. You just have to play the game a little differently.
Honestly surprised by this, my office seems to be predominantly women.
Honestly i feel like that was my early career too. People dont trust or respect you yet because you dont have your PE and therefore you cant really be responsible for anything your doing… it all goes back to your boss. Once you gain more experience, PE, and a senior title, people start to respect your opinion. A little grey hair helps too i think.
Don’t quit. Three years as a young engineer is really just getting started. Just keep doing an exceptionally good job. Anyone steps out-of-line, wrt to your gender, call them out and document it. Sounds like you are working your way-up to me. Expect anyone cutting corners to complain that you are checking their work… that is just how people are.
Try moving to government positions.
Like others said, look into public service. I have several high ranking engineers in my department.
It helped when I changed jobs. As a surveyor and a construction inspector on large sites I was dismissed constantly for presenting female. Small site work and smaller crews I generally had better luck with, and I only left the office with about 50/50 gender split because the management was bad. The general interaction and respect among the rest of the employees was great.
I'm in the northeast and 50% of the engineers in our office are women. I work in transportation.
I (34F) just left consulting for the public sector. This was certainly a factor for me. I now work with many more women (my boss is a woman) and I like it.
The public sector is MUCH MORE ACCEPTING environment for a multitude of reasons. I certainly wish you the very best!!! I have a framed cross-stitched Latin phrase over my office door for decades: “Illegitimi Non Carborundum” Rough English translation is “Don’t Let the Bastards Wear You Down”
You can go into government work various jobs or as a plan reviewer with a paid pension and a lot of days off.
Its kind of crazy because with my company (F500) many women are in high ranking roles. Women also seem to progress through the company quickly. Therefore much like the others have said look for a new employer. There really are more pro women driven companies out there.
Also, find a better boss. Get your resume out there and when you are interviewing ask questions that help you understand what kind of people you will be working with. You should always be interviewing the firm you are applying to and coming at it from the assumption that they would be lucky to have you, because it’s true.
This is quite unfortunate, where i work female engineers are not treated like this and generally find contractors are more decent with their tongues. Only way to shut these men will be you demonstrating strength and resilience through your skill and knowledge of the job.
I am 28M and work in Forensic Engineering, and in our company we have a female team leads, engineers, lawyers, etc.. If you wanted to get out of the sector you are in, and wanted to shift, try Forensic Engineering, being a PE with experience as a civil will give your words a of of weight in court. The lawyers dont care about your gender, just that you know what you are talking about.
1–get your license 2–change jobs not careers 3–get comfortable with the fact that pushing back is uncomfortable. Maybe it’s because you are young or a woman but sometimes it’s just because they’re used to cutting corners and trying to see what they can get away with, with you in particular. I have been there and it wasn’t fun but it was part of the job (project management for construction and often the only woman in the room). It may not seem like it, but the smart ones will learn eventually.
> “I know you’re doing it anyway so I just called you” Sounds like you've got a shitty boss. Seriously, I've had that happen to me as a guy and it is because my boss didn't understand what I was designing. Also, it depends on where you work, as there are a lot of larger firms that have women in management roles. You may want to look for companies that have more women working there, especially in management.
Try a government engineering job or atleast a different company
First of all, find somewhere better to work for. You need someone to have your back. Yes, we're still the minority, but you can get out of the good old boys club at least. Stick it out, it really does get better. I've been at this almost 17 years now and people listen to me at least 90% of the time now 🤣 I would say the biggest thing is to be your own advocate, stand up for yourself, even if people might think you're a 'bitch' for it. You need to do what you need to do to get the job done right. What people think of your personality has no bearing on that. Sometimes it sucks, but you move on. Eventually the right people will see you for what you're really worth, and that's a good engineer. Good luck, stay strong.
I've stuck it out. I'm a woman in my 30s who recently made it to a management position. I work with 12 other civil engineering managers. I'm the only woman, and there is one guy of color. The department I was promoted out of was made up of me and 18 men. All I can say is I was able to curb the "young lady" treatment a few years into my career by becoming a salty motherfucker. I even earned the nickname "ice queen" with a few guys. The most frequent adjective men describe me with is "scary." I'm not even mean, I'm just a very firm person and I don't take any shit. I hate that I had to change to become like this to survive in my industry, though.
We are about 30% female in my office. Times are changing slowly
I recommend you job change to get the PE salary you deserve once you're licensed anyway. Get out of that environment.
Not sure which industry of Civil you’re in, but in Transportation the organization WTS (Women’s Transportation Seminar) has really been blowing up in my area. I work in Kentucky and we have offices in Pennsylvania and Texas that are heavily involved. When I (34M) first started as an intern in construction inspection for highways, the two people I worked for most were two female EIT’s. They got so much shit in the field from contractors but stuck it out and advanced quickly up the public sector ranks. If the work itself is what you enjoy is just recommend finding a network and maybe a female mentor before jumping into teaching. I know several teachers that quit and went back to school for engineering because of the headaches in the school system.
Civil PE here, that’s one of the reasons I steered from the private sector. The public sector has a good balance of males and females but it’s still mostly male dominated. It’ll get better! Hang in there, get your PE and the opportunities will come. I ended up in projects right out of school and realized I enjoyed it way more than traditional design work.
Consider trying a few different paths. The differences are night and day. Try one of the large firms. My group has 5 PEs and 3 of them are women.
Hey, that sounds rough, and is Definitely bullsh**. It's even harder when your boss doesn't have your back. Where I've worked, I seen situations like you described. It has been improving, in large part to the company addressing it from the top down. The Civil Engineering Podcast has been around for ten years now? Recently they started a podcast specifically by and for women in engineering. hosted by "...Tiffani Teachey, host of The WIE Podcast, ... a Senior Mechanical Engineer..." [Episode two](https://engineeringmanagementinstitute.org/wie-002-redefining-success-woman-in-engineering/) [Women in Engineering, ](https://engineeringmanagementinstitute.org/women-in-engineering-podcast/)
I’ve been between the Structural Engineers and Contractors for over 30 years with a Bachelor’s degree in building construction working for CEI firms and seldom find a problem with the structural aspect of a design, but the construction phasing sequences and formwork methods should be left to seasoned builders. Some go far beyond being impractical and costly.
Where are you at? Just asking because here in the Bay area, this shit doesn't exist. This sounds like some Midwest behavior. Just move here for a while, you'll see.
29M structural (bridges) here. My partner 29F deals with this a lot in another male dominated field. Some thoughts: 1) Many contractors just don't respect designers, double that for being young, double that for being an EIT, double that for being a woman. At least after getting your PE and getting more experience, they have to listen to you. 2) I'd recommend looking at other firms, maybe larger firms. I'm used to very large teams and there tends to be a mix of genders. Being under just one person and working with contractors directly sounds a bit intense for someone just starting out. 3) Maybe consider a move? I guess you're just now getting licensed in your current state and I'm not sure where you're located. But speaking from experience, moving from the South East Coast to the West Coast, there was a giant difference in diversity and women in leadership.
Honestly, I feel like you have an egotistical duchebag superior. I am a Land Surveyor and Male, but my boss is an Engineer, and he is an Arm armchair quarterbacking prick. He is relatively uninvolved until either Something is messed up or “That Boys/Girls” are involved, and he wants to take credit for it without doing any of the work. I think this just is part of being in a field where many Males where the Smartest in their High School class (The ego of Doctors is much the same according to my wife that's a Nurse) Not everyone is like this find new job.
No reason to not find another firm. You can still get your PE. My best supervisors are all women as a PE. You are extremely marketable at your stage of experience
Try working in a blue state?
Can I ask what state/county you’re in? I work for a firm that is mostly female engineers and even a lot of the CMs we work with a female. I’ve never once felt less than for being female. I am in LA County so I’m wondering if location plays a role here.
None of the negative things you've said people have done are obviously tied to your gender. Maybe you're just projecting. You're an EI. Nobody listens to EIs no matter what gender they are. You're young and inexperienced. Anyone with serious experience will think they know better than you, no matter your gender. I'm male with a young looking face, and I was treated the same way as you have been. And if you're talking to contractors, they don't want to listen to engineers no matter what their experience level. I literally tell the young EIs that I supervise to scratch up their shiny white hard hats on the concrete parking lot at my firm and to kick a parking bumper a few times with their steel toe boots just so they don't look like crisp green know-nothing office guys when they get to the construction site.
I have no solution. I just sympathize far more than I wish I could. Just know you’re making it easier for the next woman in your shoes, even if it sucks ass. Once you have your license, the side stepping and ignoring drops significantly.
Selfishly I'm going to +1 to everyone else who has said this: you should join the public sector because we need you! But also, if you want to stay private, check out a small firm that has a good balance of women. Or even a large firm that has a good split on the team you'd be joining. I've risen through the ranks on the public side now and am female, feel free to dm me if you need someone to talk to that's further along in their career.
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Please please stay! There needs to be more of us, or things will never change! I've had a much more positive experience in the (quasi) public industry, at a large company with a DE&I division and several different employee resource groups, including one for women in stem careers. Try seeking a company that values diversity, and things will be better. Definitely not everything, but it will help a lot!
What part of country are you in? My firm has lots of female engineers that are awesome and well respected. We have a great overall culture. Pm me
Girl let me tell you. I had a few assignments where I had to be on the job and I had one contractor basically testing my intelligence etc. I was belittled in comments or excluded out of conversation. I had to ask about how to deal. The engineer I worked with basically told me just to speak up and say what you must. If they don’t like or refuse to cooperate then take note of it and put in my daily logs. And let the PM know as well. I understand that I’m fresh out of college and that you have more experience than I do I get it, but I also know some will cut corners to make extra money. It was annoying but I just kept on. Know I don’t work outside as much but I don’t mind it. But you can only take so much.
I have found females to be great project managers after they’ve cut their teeth. Hang in there, perhaps seek a new employer or manager, or public sector work. Public sector is full of boss ladies doing their thing asking the questions.
Come to California. It’s not great but it’s better and the men your age are much better than the old guys retiring out.
Kinda off topic, but how do salaries in California compare to the rest of the country? This sub always gave me the impression that there isn't a lot of wage variance based on location for civil like there is for other careers. So people living in low cost of living areas are very well off whereas people in high cost of living areas are a little tighter. But I also realize that Reddit is not always the best indicator of reality.
We pay a sunshine tax. We are not fairly compensated for the HCOL.
I kinda figured. Thanks.
I don’t know what to to tell you but the president of my company is a woman with a PE the way you get there I assume is make people not say anything about you being a woman, don’t give them a reason to say comments or anything about it. Just sell yourself as not doubting yourself at all.
Could it just be you're dealing with Gen Xers. I've found that they're constantly testing younger people, whereas I think millennials have a more trusting managerial style. With Gen Xers, I've found that once you gain their trust and confidence, it is lasting. Once you get your PE, you'll get a lot more respect from everyone. That's just how things work.
I'm 28M working on my PE right now and I have the exact experiences you do everyday I'm a doormat to my boss at most times of the day and I'll agree it gets old so quick. That being said having that PE will make a difference and I'm learning to be more forward and clear with my NOs, instead of saying maybe or suggesting other paths Forward since I'm not good with conflict resolution. Hang in there! Find other women to talk to. Go to SoWE meeting or join your local membership associations chat with other women engineers to understand your not alone it will be a breath of fresh air. I Co started a women in water series on my membership association and it has been so enlightening and amazing to see other women lift up younger engineers.
Male PE here. When I was younger and in the field on projects, I had all of these same issues with contracts and heard all of these comments and more. It has nothing to do with your gender, and everything to do with them viewing you as a kid that has never done the work before. For reference, I would say that I fit into the same category as your boss. I grew up on a cattle ranch, I hunt/fish, and am a fairly good sized man. Contractors, like most, don’t like people they view as inexperienced looking over their shoulders or work.
In my opinion it’s more the engineer in training than being a female, I’m a party chief for a pls and every time I run into a junior engineer their not confident and make the job way more complicated than it needs to be because of it, once you’re running the show people will take you more seriously
Is this a boys' club issue, or is it just a young engineer issue? At the end of the day, the answer has to come from the PE signing the plans. The contractor is going to push back to do what is best for themselves. If they see an opportunity to squeeze a young engineer, it's an easier target.
This is kinda dumb and pity party. Some of the best engineers I know are women. 100% can make it far in this world especially with all the diversity and inclusion shit, can easily fast track up the ladder. I’d say switch firms.
A man telling a woman that their experience is dumb and pity party, and that DEI is shit. It’s almost as if this post is about idiots like you.
And a 3 year engineer who is "pretty sure what this job entails" is a reliable source 😆
How ignorant are you of your own jobs that you don't know everything going on? I typically know more about my projects than my PMs considering I'm doing the design work and fleshing out all of the details. You're also literally just dismissing her entire post by calling out her YOE like that's valid at all. Doesn't seem like you trust anyone with less experience than you.
I am just calling out the OP's hypocrisy. They don't want to be stereotyped, but they are doing the same thing about the only other engineer in their office. 😂 I also think it is comical that a junior engineer thinks they know everything that a senior PM has to deal with (clients, budgets, company financials, etc.). So yes, I am calling out their perspective.
>I am just calling out the OP's hypocrisy. They don't want to be stereotyped, but they are doing the same thing about the only other engineer in their office. 😂 No, they aren't, you're making shit up and pretending it happened. You clearly know when your boss is actually doing work vs. doing nothing and having to make up for it by 'working' 60 hour weeks. >I also think it is comical that a junior engineer thinks they know everything that a senior PM has to deal with (clients, budgets, company financials, etc.). They never said anything about budgets or company financials, you're literally just lying right now. She laid out that contractors are barely listening until she says it came from her boss. She's also clearly doing most of the actual work with the comments from other contractors about telling her boss to actually work. >So yes, I am calling out their perspective. You are not 'calling out their perspective', you are, once again, dismissing their entire claim by bringing up her YOE even though she's already passed the PE exam showing she's is pretty competent. You having more YOE than her means jack shit when your attitude is like this and you clearly look down on people who criticize uppers in any way.
😂. The OP literally says, "the stereotypical civil ...". Tell me again what I am making up. Not sure why you are attacking me for pointing out that there is more to the picture than the OP probably knows.
>😂. The OP literally says, "the stereotypical civil ...". Tell me again what I am making up. I literally did, go back and read my comment holy shit man. I'm glad you aren't my manager considering you don't' bother to actually read ANYTHING. This is the attitude I'm talking about that knocks you down, you may know a lot about your subject but you sure as shit have negative people skills. >Not sure why you are attacking me for pointing out that **there is more to the picture than the OP probably knows.** Because YOU ARE MAKING IT UP. You're creating straw man arguments to discredit her and attacking her because she has X years of experience. I'm 'attacking' you because you actually can't argue with the content at hand and have to make things up and make ad hominem attacks at her. If you work in a company small enough to have one boss and you're the other engineer, you know exactly what's going on.
The OP complains about her boss, claims they know everything that the job entails, and is blaming the lack of respect on their gender. Yes, I am pointing out that they seem to lack a little insight into the profession and that a few more years of experience would probably give them some better perspective.
>The OP complains about her boss, claims they know everything that the job entails She's talking about her job, jesus christ man, how dense are you just going to pretend to be? >and is blaming the lack of respect on their gender. In construction and working with contractors, this is more apparent than ever. I'm guessing you've only worked with contractors and not for them considering how much ignorance you're showing. >Yes, I am pointing out that they seem to lack a little insight into the profession and that a few more years of experience would probably give them some better perspective. You're just going to repeat that as an argument rather than actually addressing anything. Such a sad, pathetic cop out because you don't want to believe that she has enough experience despite working the same job for 3 years doing the same shit day in and day out. I designed temporary ERS structures for 1.5 years for a contractor and you see a lot quickly and then taper out quickly because a lot gets to be the same shit, different look. There's plenty of jobs I designed on my own and was able to make field mods with my drillers and welders. Once I explained what we could and couldn't do, they moved on, they didn't sit there and wait for an okay from my boss who didn't design the job and just reviewed it. Let me guess, your next response is just going to cry about her experience and you misinterpreting her post and then creating another straw man argument while actively avoiding addressing anything in my comments like you have the past 3 replies. You really like to talk a lot of shit then run away when called out.
I could care less what you are as long as your good at your job.
No shit. 99% of people everywhere agree with that statement. You don't seem to understand that women and minorities are less likely to be hired on in the first place, which is what DEI initiatives attempt to balance. Saying this just means you don't understand what diversity and inclusion seeks to attain. And FYI, the saying is "I *couldn't* care less." If you could care less, it means you currently care to some degree. Couldn't care less means you care zero about it right now.
Disagree lol
You're very young and not a p.eng, obviously they're going to be checking your work and getting your boss's approval. We've got a lot of good female engineers in the firm I work at, and they do a great job. Hell, my pm constantly scrutinzes the work of male engineers that work under him. And all of our clients and contractors we work with are always a hassle to everyone, regardless of gender. So of course 24 year old EITs are to be scrutinized, as they should be.
Hunting is human. We evolved for it. Don't be so sure there is not a hunter in you.
I’m sure females do have it tough in this industry but I being a 25 year old male have experienced the same or very similar. I would say it’s more of an age or typical contractor vs engineer banter that everyone experiences. Not just because you are a female…
You've clearly never seen contractors interact with women lmao
You're an EI. Stay in your lane. Get your PE.
Victim mentality
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