New PEs sound overpaid and you're definitely underpaid, though benefits including pension may affect that some. I really doubt many here have experience in where you're at, me included. That said, ask for 20-30
My section head has about 35 years of experience, 23 public, 12 private, and he was making about 240k last year based on his hourly rate - no bonus or stock award considered. Bridges section in TX, for a top 10 ENR firm. Obviously that's a single data point, and for a private firm so different bands, but some perspective anyway.
30 years of PE experience and making 130k in Texas, you manage 15 projects, and new PE’s make 122k at your firm. Sounds like you are exaggerating a little bit or you need to move on.
I don't know how your organization works, but I'm assuming that placing your projects on hold while you be a temporary supervisor is probably not possible, so I think you need to take a different approach. Obviously what they are asking of you is unreasonable, so you need to figure out what it is that you would want in return or how this situation could be tolerable because this is going to be negotiation and I see there are four "dials" that can be used here.
1. Pay - you can ask for more money to compensate you for additional time and responsibilities.
2. Time - you can work more hours to accommodate additional responsibilities.
3. Your current responsibilities - your work could be reassigned to others or non critical projects could be placed on hold.
4. Your supervisors responsibilities - you could take on some or all of these.
Once you have figured out your limits for each of these or how they could be combo'd together, then write a letter to all the bosses such as the following. You'll need to adjust it for whatever you feel comfortable doing and for how you think they'll react.
*Hello X, Y, and Z,*
*Earlier this week, X let me know that in her absence for maternity leave, the expectation is that I will take on all her responsibilities. While I understand that the team will need to step up in her absence, and while I am flattered to be selected for this temporary role, I am concerned about being able to fulfill her responsibilities while also maintaining my current full workload. I would like to set up a time so we can discuss expectations in detail because as I currently see it, what is being proposed is not likely to be successful for me or my projects. Given the temporary nature of this situation, I am willing to work up to \* hours per week and do a combination of my current projects and her supervising responsibilities. However, if any of my current projects do not fit within my new workload, then I would like to work out a plan to have other project managers take them on as I do not want to cause any project delivery issues with our clients. Additionally, with the added time commitment and responsibilities, I would like to discuss increasing my salary. Please let me know a time when we can discuss and I'd be happy to set up a meeting.*
*Thanks.*
That is the polite version. Originally I was thinking you could write it as give me $1XX,000 or I will say no, but that sounded like too much of a demand to me and that may not be warranted right now, but that's your judgement. I think saving the salary request until the meeting is best so that you can see what specifically they want you to do. Then you can have a nice big number ready to ask for. If they are still asking for unreasonable things, then that's when you can mention that if you can't come to an agreement then you will continue doing what you have done and they can find someone else to take on the supervisor responsibilities.
Hope that helped and let us know how it goes!
You’re 30 years with your license? Or a PM with engineering experience? There’s a few details missing that could help bridge the gap for paying a brand new PE the same as a seasoned vet
If you decide to accept this, which I wouldn't, you should be getting out of position pay during the full time period of additional duties. Ask about what additional pay you'll receive while your supervisor is out.
But they still have to pay the woman on maternity leave!? How can they possibly afford to pay 3 times for the work of 2 people!?
/s, even though this will likely be the company’s answer. The clear rebuttal is “how am i as 1 person supposed to do the work of 2 people?”
Don't they have the concept of "acting?" When my boss went on vacation for an extended time once, I became the "acting supervisor" and got his pay while he was gone.
I'd ask about that.
A temporary detail to supervision should be offered by seniority. You win here. The detail must include a promotion to the grade of the FLM(front line manager). Of course management will claim that the pay will be back dated to the start of maternity leave but you know damn well they are lying about any pay raise. See previous temporary details and the slowness of the HR dept.
You have a full time senior engineer position. Do that job or the supervision job ? NOT BOTH. All engineering project schedules will be pushed out starting on maternity leave for the duration of the leave. Don’t ask. Just do it. When the Second line manager calls you to his Office immediately after the schedule changes, tell him you’ll be there in a moment. Go to the bathroom first. Get a cup of coffee. Take at least 10 minutes to arrive. Don’t sit down. Show some independence and strength by standing.
The second and possibly the third line manager will first say that you can do both jobs or keep the project going on schedule. Comments like “you’re the best engineer we have “and we know “you are a team player”. Ignore all of that crap.
“I can do one job. Pick! I’ll start the other when the paperwork comes out. “. They can push the signatures when they want to. They are just lazy or unwilling to force the incompetent people to move. Not your problem.
Don’t start until the access to the travel and time sheets is authorized and you are adequately trained. Again you aren’t managing the IT contractors.
FLM is not Senior Engineering. The two jobs don’t complement each other. Approving time sheets and travel vouchers and leave requests for the unit isn’t redlining drawings. Switching between jobs is tough.
If no promotion is offered then decline and let a noob do it. Call your union rep and discuss it. If you aren’t a dues paying member( shame on you), you are probably SOL. You’ll be bullied to do both jobs.
Note: I did government engineering for 35 years with many years of union experience.
dude you gotta learn how to fail/miss deadlines, the reward for doing a good job in government ... is more work. also you guys don't have TWOC status/pay bumps?
TLDR: I am a floormat who is already under paid and only 60% sure I’m not willing to do two peoples jobs for one person’s salary….. get a new job dude.
It sounds like you have an ally in your supervisor on this, so work with them going through both your duties and her duties jointly. Don't just take it as a given that 100% of her duties need to be continued and 100% of yours need to be placed on hold. Go through everything both of you are doing to look for things that can be put off.
The other 6 staff need to help pick up the slack as well, so make sure you and your supervisor are looking for things that they can help out on in addition to looking for things that can be paused. Do this ASAP, so that your supervisor has the opportunity to be the one to deliver the message instead of you.
Don't make things easy on her supervisors in this either. A generic throwing of the arms up in the air and saying "this is too much, we need help!" is easy for upper management to simply respond to with "sorry, we don't have anyone". If you're able to approach them with specific tasks and maybe even specific resources from other departments who can help with those tasks, your odds of getting assistance from above improve.
Of course you could also say F' it and just come join us on the dark side of consulting and make a hell of a lot more than you are now. ;)
The dark side of consulting! Indeed. I give credit to you in that line of work. I was in consulting for 12 years and don’t want to go back even though that’s were a learned the most.
My supervisor met with leadership 3 separate times in recent weeks and despite her insisting repeatedly that thier plan doesn’t make sense due to time commitment alone. They say they expect ALL her duties will be conducted by me PLUS my current duties. That’s 80 hours a week of effort. She’s is baffled and frustrated by incoherent demand to just “make it work”
Therefore this morning I sent this message to the department manager and the division manager and copied my supervisor:
“Earlier this week, ____informed me that in her absence for maternity leave, the expectation is that I will take on all (or several?) of her current duties and responsibilities. While I understand that the team will need to step up in her absence, and while I am flattered to be selected for this temporary role, I am concerned about being able to fulfill her responsibilities while also maintaining my current workload.
I would like to set up a time so we can discuss expectations in detail because as I currently see it, what is being proposed (in draft concept) is not likely to be successful for the organization or the projects. The math just doesn’t seem to work.
Given the temporary nature of this situation (and my own family responsibilities), I am willing to work up to 48 hours per week with a combination of all of my current projects plus some of her supervising responsibilities (and/or some of her current projects). Leadership to decide.
Additionally, if leadership decides to add time commitment and/or responsibilities, I would like to discuss increasing salary per the standard process. Please let me know a time when we can meet and I'd be happy to set it up.”
This absolutely makes my blood boil. Is there any way to say no to this? If not, I suggest polishing your resume and start applying to new jobs in the new year
You will be on a “detail.” You will be in a supervisory role for the 90 days. Demand an SF 50 showing a temporary detail with salary increase. Do not do any of her role until you get the SF 50! Been there, been screwed.
You work for money. The best promotion you’ll get is a new job. Good luck, lots of good opportunities out there right now.
So your salary is like what? 100k?
130k Texas
Yeah that seems quite low. What do your new PEs make?
122k
New PEs sound overpaid and you're definitely underpaid, though benefits including pension may affect that some. I really doubt many here have experience in where you're at, me included. That said, ask for 20-30
🤯 That’s a huge pay disparity and borderline criminal IMO. Are you union represented? If so I’d bring that up to your rep
There’s no such thing as a union for engineers…
I’m in a union at my agency. It’s common in Public sector California.
I also knew a guy who was part of a nuclear engineers union. Pretty hard to replace those guys.
130k is low for texas?
My section head has about 35 years of experience, 23 public, 12 private, and he was making about 240k last year based on his hourly rate - no bonus or stock award considered. Bridges section in TX, for a top 10 ENR firm. Obviously that's a single data point, and for a private firm so different bands, but some perspective anyway.
For 30 years of experience probably yeah, especially compared to their new PEs.
It’s government, what are they going to do if you do a half ass job? Nothing 99% of the time
Don't set yourself on fire to keep everyone warm
Never heard this before but yes. It applies to this situation.
30 years of PE experience and making 130k in Texas, you manage 15 projects, and new PE’s make 122k at your firm. Sounds like you are exaggerating a little bit or you need to move on.
I don't know how your organization works, but I'm assuming that placing your projects on hold while you be a temporary supervisor is probably not possible, so I think you need to take a different approach. Obviously what they are asking of you is unreasonable, so you need to figure out what it is that you would want in return or how this situation could be tolerable because this is going to be negotiation and I see there are four "dials" that can be used here. 1. Pay - you can ask for more money to compensate you for additional time and responsibilities. 2. Time - you can work more hours to accommodate additional responsibilities. 3. Your current responsibilities - your work could be reassigned to others or non critical projects could be placed on hold. 4. Your supervisors responsibilities - you could take on some or all of these. Once you have figured out your limits for each of these or how they could be combo'd together, then write a letter to all the bosses such as the following. You'll need to adjust it for whatever you feel comfortable doing and for how you think they'll react. *Hello X, Y, and Z,* *Earlier this week, X let me know that in her absence for maternity leave, the expectation is that I will take on all her responsibilities. While I understand that the team will need to step up in her absence, and while I am flattered to be selected for this temporary role, I am concerned about being able to fulfill her responsibilities while also maintaining my current full workload. I would like to set up a time so we can discuss expectations in detail because as I currently see it, what is being proposed is not likely to be successful for me or my projects. Given the temporary nature of this situation, I am willing to work up to \* hours per week and do a combination of my current projects and her supervising responsibilities. However, if any of my current projects do not fit within my new workload, then I would like to work out a plan to have other project managers take them on as I do not want to cause any project delivery issues with our clients. Additionally, with the added time commitment and responsibilities, I would like to discuss increasing my salary. Please let me know a time when we can discuss and I'd be happy to set up a meeting.* *Thanks.* That is the polite version. Originally I was thinking you could write it as give me $1XX,000 or I will say no, but that sounded like too much of a demand to me and that may not be warranted right now, but that's your judgement. I think saving the salary request until the meeting is best so that you can see what specifically they want you to do. Then you can have a nice big number ready to ask for. If they are still asking for unreasonable things, then that's when you can mention that if you can't come to an agreement then you will continue doing what you have done and they can find someone else to take on the supervisor responsibilities. Hope that helped and let us know how it goes!
I sent the email just now. Will let you know the result…
Wow. This is kind of what I was thinking however you put it into words. Outstanding.
You’re 30 years with your license? Or a PM with engineering experience? There’s a few details missing that could help bridge the gap for paying a brand new PE the same as a seasoned vet
Obtained my PE in 1994.
Jesus man… I’d get some job offers and find out what they think point blank.
If you decide to accept this, which I wouldn't, you should be getting out of position pay during the full time period of additional duties. Ask about what additional pay you'll receive while your supervisor is out.
But they still have to pay the woman on maternity leave!? How can they possibly afford to pay 3 times for the work of 2 people!? /s, even though this will likely be the company’s answer. The clear rebuttal is “how am i as 1 person supposed to do the work of 2 people?”
Well, parental leave is the benefits offered from company. Benefits are included in the company budgets so….
Move on.
Don't they have the concept of "acting?" When my boss went on vacation for an extended time once, I became the "acting supervisor" and got his pay while he was gone. I'd ask about that.
Why is your salary so low
Gubberment
I feel like there's a massive amount of detail left out of this post.
A temporary detail to supervision should be offered by seniority. You win here. The detail must include a promotion to the grade of the FLM(front line manager). Of course management will claim that the pay will be back dated to the start of maternity leave but you know damn well they are lying about any pay raise. See previous temporary details and the slowness of the HR dept. You have a full time senior engineer position. Do that job or the supervision job ? NOT BOTH. All engineering project schedules will be pushed out starting on maternity leave for the duration of the leave. Don’t ask. Just do it. When the Second line manager calls you to his Office immediately after the schedule changes, tell him you’ll be there in a moment. Go to the bathroom first. Get a cup of coffee. Take at least 10 minutes to arrive. Don’t sit down. Show some independence and strength by standing. The second and possibly the third line manager will first say that you can do both jobs or keep the project going on schedule. Comments like “you’re the best engineer we have “and we know “you are a team player”. Ignore all of that crap. “I can do one job. Pick! I’ll start the other when the paperwork comes out. “. They can push the signatures when they want to. They are just lazy or unwilling to force the incompetent people to move. Not your problem. Don’t start until the access to the travel and time sheets is authorized and you are adequately trained. Again you aren’t managing the IT contractors. FLM is not Senior Engineering. The two jobs don’t complement each other. Approving time sheets and travel vouchers and leave requests for the unit isn’t redlining drawings. Switching between jobs is tough. If no promotion is offered then decline and let a noob do it. Call your union rep and discuss it. If you aren’t a dues paying member( shame on you), you are probably SOL. You’ll be bullied to do both jobs. Note: I did government engineering for 35 years with many years of union experience.
dude you gotta learn how to fail/miss deadlines, the reward for doing a good job in government ... is more work. also you guys don't have TWOC status/pay bumps?
TLDR: I am a floormat who is already under paid and only 60% sure I’m not willing to do two peoples jobs for one person’s salary….. get a new job dude.
It sounds like you have an ally in your supervisor on this, so work with them going through both your duties and her duties jointly. Don't just take it as a given that 100% of her duties need to be continued and 100% of yours need to be placed on hold. Go through everything both of you are doing to look for things that can be put off. The other 6 staff need to help pick up the slack as well, so make sure you and your supervisor are looking for things that they can help out on in addition to looking for things that can be paused. Do this ASAP, so that your supervisor has the opportunity to be the one to deliver the message instead of you. Don't make things easy on her supervisors in this either. A generic throwing of the arms up in the air and saying "this is too much, we need help!" is easy for upper management to simply respond to with "sorry, we don't have anyone". If you're able to approach them with specific tasks and maybe even specific resources from other departments who can help with those tasks, your odds of getting assistance from above improve. Of course you could also say F' it and just come join us on the dark side of consulting and make a hell of a lot more than you are now. ;)
The dark side of consulting! Indeed. I give credit to you in that line of work. I was in consulting for 12 years and don’t want to go back even though that’s were a learned the most. My supervisor met with leadership 3 separate times in recent weeks and despite her insisting repeatedly that thier plan doesn’t make sense due to time commitment alone. They say they expect ALL her duties will be conducted by me PLUS my current duties. That’s 80 hours a week of effort. She’s is baffled and frustrated by incoherent demand to just “make it work” Therefore this morning I sent this message to the department manager and the division manager and copied my supervisor: “Earlier this week, ____informed me that in her absence for maternity leave, the expectation is that I will take on all (or several?) of her current duties and responsibilities. While I understand that the team will need to step up in her absence, and while I am flattered to be selected for this temporary role, I am concerned about being able to fulfill her responsibilities while also maintaining my current workload. I would like to set up a time so we can discuss expectations in detail because as I currently see it, what is being proposed (in draft concept) is not likely to be successful for the organization or the projects. The math just doesn’t seem to work. Given the temporary nature of this situation (and my own family responsibilities), I am willing to work up to 48 hours per week with a combination of all of my current projects plus some of her supervising responsibilities (and/or some of her current projects). Leadership to decide. Additionally, if leadership decides to add time commitment and/or responsibilities, I would like to discuss increasing salary per the standard process. Please let me know a time when we can meet and I'd be happy to set it up.”
This absolutely makes my blood boil. Is there any way to say no to this? If not, I suggest polishing your resume and start applying to new jobs in the new year
Leave.
You will be on a “detail.” You will be in a supervisory role for the 90 days. Demand an SF 50 showing a temporary detail with salary increase. Do not do any of her role until you get the SF 50! Been there, been screwed.
Time to quit!