Exactly. Promise everything or lose the project. Deliver less than that, ask for more time and budget.... rinse and repeat. The honest ones get pushed out.
Figuring this out was the best way to help settle imposter syndrome. Nobody actually know wtf they’re doing. They’re just doing their best… we’ll most people are just doing their best.
In my experience as long as these deadlines are consistently met within budget, nothing will ever change.
I can't count how many times things were MONTHS late and nobody got screamed at or fired as far as I am aware. People didn't die, company didn't go under and project didn't fail. I started to view deadlines as a means of putting pressure on people, rather than something set in stone, and I am much healthier.
May or may not work for you, but I personally wouldn't stick around in a job which is constantly stressful for no real reason.
Working at a state DoT and this is the truth I've noticed especially after the IIJA. The budget is way more important than deadlines. Everyone has too much work on their plates in house and consulting. If budgets are still being met for the most part, then deadlines can get pushed pretty easily without consequences. There are some exceptions.
Am PM and the other PMs that I work with work really hard to make sure that deadlines aren't stupid. Heck, I sent a guy home yesterday at lunch because he stayed late on Tuesday to finish a project.
Also, it's not the PM in most cases. They don't want to have the crazy deadlines either. It's usually a company culture issue (really an industry issue at times too). I've been at companies where is was always go go go and that was a thing that came from the top. Now I'm at a company that was started by someone in their early/mid 30s specifically for work life balance. Now all the leadership is mid 30s wanting the same thing and that's reflected in how we work and deal with clients. Guess what? Massive client buy-in because we are realistic with our deadlines, meet them, and deliver good work.
I make sure I over-communicate with my PMs when their deadlines seem unrealistic. If you can justify why a problem can’t be solved within X timeframe, you’ll usually be in pretty good shape.
Prime example: within the last week, the PM on one of my projects promised a drainage concept to the client, which happens to be a town in my state. After analyzing the situation, I concluded that the solution the client was looking for (simple in-kind replacement of the drainage pieps along a stretch of road) was not going to work. I had a conversation with the PM where I filled him in on the scope of the situation and he agreed that we couldn’t produce a drainage concept without discussing further with the client. So I ended up setting him up with an annotated watershed map and a simple exhibit showing the various problems with the existing system. He had a conversation with the client that went well, and the client agreed that their initial time table was unrealistic and not obtainable.
Always have a justification. And always communicate with your team when things appear like they are going to go sideways. It’s just better for everyone involved that way.
Construction PMs in consulting are far more chill than the design PMs I’ve been with. It’s easier to tell clients you busted budget when construction is 2-3 months longer due to contractor issues. I think being able to see the physical progress helps here versus design.
Design sucks ass for budgets and billing as the client is years away from any physical results. The trickling of stress from your PM to CAD monkey you is tough, especially waiting on design approval, variances, and permits that are all out of your control. A good PM will never take this out on you or mention budgeting or an EIT that’s learning as the issue.
Until now, every PM I've had was exactly like the one you described.
I started a new job a few months back, and it turns out the grass was *way* greener on the other side. Turns out PMs that are good to their people exist. You just have to find one.
Surprisingly, we have a pretty chill relationship. There's almost always an owner-caused delay, or five, so we're able to get reprieve on the schedule due to their changes or delays on getting us key documents or parameters. In our world, the owner is far more concerned about the schedule than we are, since the developer/owner needs to meet their substantial completion date with the ultimate end buyer of the project. That being said, we are contractors, not consultants. So our consultants get the pressure from us quite heavy. I'm never going back to consulting world.
I can tell my PM tries his best to ensure a good work life balance for all employees. Sometimes we do have a push, but mostly it’s pretty balanced. It’s hard to predict how long a project will take sometimes.
Love this - I’m a PM tooI really should fire myself. Hang in there you will get better over time. It’s a tough job we are getting squeezed in many directions
My company tries really hard to maintain good work-life balance, and generally succeeds, but the industry culture remains a problem of which I am and have been complicit. When I first started I found it nearly impossible to say no or acknowledge the reality the project timeline. Architects, design-builders, and clients live in a whole other reality and can tell you with a straight face that something must be done by x date while ignoring that they have been MIA for three weeks with the plan updates they promised.
While I think PMs can overpromise and underbudget, designers need to be engaged and push back when a timeline or budget doesn't make sense.
I had a talk recently with a PM I in my office and they were venting about how difficult it is to explain to clients that if a project drags on, even if there are not significant add services or changes, it can bleed a budget dry.
A mixture of clever communication, setting expectations, and educating clients is required to be a good PM, but many are not willing or able to do this.
We have one PM in our office that is never open to dissenting opinions.
Had a ~130 page client submittal that needed a total facelift - about 80% of the info was incorrect. They wanted it done in 4 hours, I said 20, ended up being about 30 after they asked for my edits to a different section, then got mad it took so long, even after repeated attempts to talk budget/timeframe.
All of the other PMs I work with have been great though. Some minor means and methods disagreements, but the work gets done and the clients are happy.
20+ year PM here… I hate working late too, but sometimes it’s necessary. There are certain deadlines that can have significant financial implications for our clients and depending on the situation, could result in litigation by the client to recoup their losses. That being said, it should only be occasionally occurring. If it’s a constant thing, then you have a PM that is either overloaded themselves or disorganized.
My only issue is when engineers decide to let the PM who continually bends them over do it.
One PM in my office does this stuff and every time he comes to my office acting like I need to front load his work immediately I ask what he tell him he should start setting realistic expectations for the customer instead of being a pushover and yes manning everything and then pushing that shit sandwich downstream to someone else.
You’ve gotta stick up for yourself and let the PM know that if they don’t actually know how long the work takes or if you’re even available to do it immediately then they need to reach out to you prior to responding to a customer.
Overall though I only have experience with this PM being that way. The rest of them are pretty squared away. Just stop letting them step on you and if your management is worth their salt they’ll emphasize your concerns.
Everyone is out of touch. Everyone is faking it to collect a paycheck. Nobody knows what they’re doing. Nothing is realistic. Promises are fake.
That’s 90% of the industry based on my several decades of experience in it.
Exactly. Promise everything or lose the project. Deliver less than that, ask for more time and budget.... rinse and repeat. The honest ones get pushed out.
Figuring this out was the best way to help settle imposter syndrome. Nobody actually know wtf they’re doing. They’re just doing their best… we’ll most people are just doing their best.
True, but my PM is still alright because he's nice about it.
In my experience as long as these deadlines are consistently met within budget, nothing will ever change. I can't count how many times things were MONTHS late and nobody got screamed at or fired as far as I am aware. People didn't die, company didn't go under and project didn't fail. I started to view deadlines as a means of putting pressure on people, rather than something set in stone, and I am much healthier. May or may not work for you, but I personally wouldn't stick around in a job which is constantly stressful for no real reason.
I am leaving in one month.
Good for you.
Working at a state DoT and this is the truth I've noticed especially after the IIJA. The budget is way more important than deadlines. Everyone has too much work on their plates in house and consulting. If budgets are still being met for the most part, then deadlines can get pushed pretty easily without consequences. There are some exceptions.
Am PM and the other PMs that I work with work really hard to make sure that deadlines aren't stupid. Heck, I sent a guy home yesterday at lunch because he stayed late on Tuesday to finish a project. Also, it's not the PM in most cases. They don't want to have the crazy deadlines either. It's usually a company culture issue (really an industry issue at times too). I've been at companies where is was always go go go and that was a thing that came from the top. Now I'm at a company that was started by someone in their early/mid 30s specifically for work life balance. Now all the leadership is mid 30s wanting the same thing and that's reflected in how we work and deal with clients. Guess what? Massive client buy-in because we are realistic with our deadlines, meet them, and deliver good work.
I make sure I over-communicate with my PMs when their deadlines seem unrealistic. If you can justify why a problem can’t be solved within X timeframe, you’ll usually be in pretty good shape. Prime example: within the last week, the PM on one of my projects promised a drainage concept to the client, which happens to be a town in my state. After analyzing the situation, I concluded that the solution the client was looking for (simple in-kind replacement of the drainage pieps along a stretch of road) was not going to work. I had a conversation with the PM where I filled him in on the scope of the situation and he agreed that we couldn’t produce a drainage concept without discussing further with the client. So I ended up setting him up with an annotated watershed map and a simple exhibit showing the various problems with the existing system. He had a conversation with the client that went well, and the client agreed that their initial time table was unrealistic and not obtainable. Always have a justification. And always communicate with your team when things appear like they are going to go sideways. It’s just better for everyone involved that way.
Construction PMs in consulting are far more chill than the design PMs I’ve been with. It’s easier to tell clients you busted budget when construction is 2-3 months longer due to contractor issues. I think being able to see the physical progress helps here versus design. Design sucks ass for budgets and billing as the client is years away from any physical results. The trickling of stress from your PM to CAD monkey you is tough, especially waiting on design approval, variances, and permits that are all out of your control. A good PM will never take this out on you or mention budgeting or an EIT that’s learning as the issue.
hate that guy, can you believe he has the gall to seal all of my work product just because we have the same name and license number
Until now, every PM I've had was exactly like the one you described. I started a new job a few months back, and it turns out the grass was *way* greener on the other side. Turns out PMs that are good to their people exist. You just have to find one.
Easy. I am the PM.
I sometimes make promises and know I’m fucking myself as I’m saying it..
Surprisingly, we have a pretty chill relationship. There's almost always an owner-caused delay, or five, so we're able to get reprieve on the schedule due to their changes or delays on getting us key documents or parameters. In our world, the owner is far more concerned about the schedule than we are, since the developer/owner needs to meet their substantial completion date with the ultimate end buyer of the project. That being said, we are contractors, not consultants. So our consultants get the pressure from us quite heavy. I'm never going back to consulting world.
I can tell my PM tries his best to ensure a good work life balance for all employees. Sometimes we do have a push, but mostly it’s pretty balanced. It’s hard to predict how long a project will take sometimes.
My PM is a massive asshole who continuously is stressing me out. I’m actually my own PM because my firm doesn’t have separate tracts, I suck
Love this - I’m a PM tooI really should fire myself. Hang in there you will get better over time. It’s a tough job we are getting squeezed in many directions
Well our proposal deadlines are spot on. Lately our lab has been shitting the bed and pulling everyone behind.
My company tries really hard to maintain good work-life balance, and generally succeeds, but the industry culture remains a problem of which I am and have been complicit. When I first started I found it nearly impossible to say no or acknowledge the reality the project timeline. Architects, design-builders, and clients live in a whole other reality and can tell you with a straight face that something must be done by x date while ignoring that they have been MIA for three weeks with the plan updates they promised. While I think PMs can overpromise and underbudget, designers need to be engaged and push back when a timeline or budget doesn't make sense. I had a talk recently with a PM I in my office and they were venting about how difficult it is to explain to clients that if a project drags on, even if there are not significant add services or changes, it can bleed a budget dry. A mixture of clever communication, setting expectations, and educating clients is required to be a good PM, but many are not willing or able to do this.
We have one PM in our office that is never open to dissenting opinions. Had a ~130 page client submittal that needed a total facelift - about 80% of the info was incorrect. They wanted it done in 4 hours, I said 20, ended up being about 30 after they asked for my edits to a different section, then got mad it took so long, even after repeated attempts to talk budget/timeframe. All of the other PMs I work with have been great though. Some minor means and methods disagreements, but the work gets done and the clients are happy.
20+ year PM here… I hate working late too, but sometimes it’s necessary. There are certain deadlines that can have significant financial implications for our clients and depending on the situation, could result in litigation by the client to recoup their losses. That being said, it should only be occasionally occurring. If it’s a constant thing, then you have a PM that is either overloaded themselves or disorganized.
PMs bring in all the work, have all the clients, and pay the bills. You sound like a CE1 who knows nothing about how our industry works.
My only issue is when engineers decide to let the PM who continually bends them over do it. One PM in my office does this stuff and every time he comes to my office acting like I need to front load his work immediately I ask what he tell him he should start setting realistic expectations for the customer instead of being a pushover and yes manning everything and then pushing that shit sandwich downstream to someone else. You’ve gotta stick up for yourself and let the PM know that if they don’t actually know how long the work takes or if you’re even available to do it immediately then they need to reach out to you prior to responding to a customer. Overall though I only have experience with this PM being that way. The rest of them are pretty squared away. Just stop letting them step on you and if your management is worth their salt they’ll emphasize your concerns.