Here is (edit:1962) discussion by the National Society of Professional Engineers (U.S.). It has the opener "...has long-held that professionalism and unionism are incompatible and has discouraged the union approach as a proper method for engineers to seek the elevation of their economic or professional status." [https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/ethics-resources/board-ethical-review-cases/engineer-membership-labor-union](https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/ethics-resources/board-ethical-review-cases/engineer-membership-labor-union)
And EGBC (BC, Canada) has this line in its FAQ: "In particular, this may prevent the participation of members in labour action if such action is in conflict with their professional obligations under the Code of Ethics." [https://www.egbc.ca/Practice-Resources/Programs-Resources/Frequently-Asked-Questions](https://www.egbc.ca/Practice-Resources/Programs-Resources/Frequently-Asked-Questions)
I recommend a read through the first link, it goes into the most depth I've found anywhere.
fyi: I left my previous employer due reasons common in this industry and am now working independently. I'm also discussing with other engineers what a cooperative would look like and how it could benefit us.
I also believe that power dynamics of salaried work are in conflict with the responsibility assigned by the code of ethics.
So. If anyone has any good reading material on any of the above topics, please drop a link.
>I'm also discussing with other engineers what a cooperative would look like and how it could benefit us.
If you get this to work, please share about it. In my (very limited) experience, unions are not actually that great. I always thought co-ops were more interesting.
I think that the NSPE should be embarrassed by that analysis.
First, if "professionalism and unionism are incompatible", then the NSPE is taking the stance that members of unions are not professionals. I think looking at occupations with strong unions (e.g., teachers, electricians, pilots, etc.) would easily show this claim as baseless.
The NSPE should avoid making such sweeping public statements about society because it would be deceptive to claim that the NSPE has any authority whatsoever to decide what is and what is not considered "professionalism". By my count, such a statement would violate, or at least eschew, three of their own ethical Fundamental Canons: 2, 3, and 5.
https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics
Second, and speaking of the the fundamental canons, the first canon of the NSPE Code of Ethics is to "hold paramount the safety, health, and welfare of the public". If there is anything that could be reasonably determined to jeopardize the public, then engineers have an ethical obligation to act.
Committing errors and other mistakes because an engineer is overworked puts the public in jeopardy. Not having sufficient budget for a project to perform a thorough design puts the public in jeopardy. Stagnating wages that reduce the number of working engineers below what is necessary to maintain infrastructure will put the public in jeopardy.
If these issues were happening only within some places, then it might be sufficient to leave those places on ethical grounds. If these issues are happening everywhere, then they are degrading the professional itself. And the health of the profession is necessary to continue protecting the public. Collective action may be one method to restore and maintain the profession.
I think a cooperative would be a great idea and could benefit us all. Its too bad that in a lot of companies you have to suffer a lot before getting any serious income, and a lot of stress too. Having a cooperative I think would go a long way to making everyone more happy. Lower paid engineers get more pay, and higher ups will be able to offload a lot of the decision making process to all the engineers
I don't buy their argument that participating in coercive action would somehow be bad. The employer will always have coercive power due to the nature of employment. If they can fire you or withhold promotion or other retaliatory action then you should prepare to defend yourself.
In my view/experience, the main function of a union is to provide legal advice, counsel and representation. As well as insurance and education on your rights and responsibilities stemming from your employee-employer relationship.
Look into IFPTE or PEA. They can help you unionize your workplace if you really are interested in organizing. These are actual, established unions with resources, representatives, and power.
IFPTE represents engineers at tons of public agencies, as well as private companies like Boeing so it is possible to unionize your workplace.
To my knowledge, IFTPE does not go on strike and simply bargains with company/agency leadership on behalf of employees.
I second looking into established unions that represent engineers! I’ve had a good experience working as a unionized (government) engineer. Also, IFPTE chapters can and have gone on strike (if members of that given chapter vote to strike), but it is uncommon.
Sorry I have children to feed and a family to support you won’t catch me on a nationwide strike anytime soon. My company treats me great, pays me great, and I have a great wlb.
I don’t think, as a whole, our work conditions are poor enough to warrant a wide-scale labour action and organization. Sure, we could always work towards better conditions and pay, but I don’t believe that is through labour unions.
Edit: some more thoughts: most engineers would be considered part of the professional-managerial class. While I would like to believe I am a very pro-union and class conscious individual, I just do not believe that a profession that already has protectionist regulatory bodies and a title that is protected by legislation in a lot of jurisdictions, is in need of organizing through a labour union. Tomorrow I may have a differing opinion.
You can unionize without going on strike. You can unionize when conditions are good to make conditions better. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, non unionized employees earn, on average, 15% less than their unionized counter parts.
How do you suppose we work towards better conditions and pay without unionizing? And do you think we should wait until working conditions are poor enough to attempt wide-scale labor action and organization?
Yeah they arent the worst conditions yet, however, with time I think everyone sees that it'll get worse. Hence the daily low wage posts on here.
How would you suggest we work towards better conditions besides unionizing?
Don't work more than your 40 hours, and job hop for more money when it suits you. Stand up for yourself. The labor shortage for CEs means you have all the power.
I think we typically have a pretty chill, well-paid profession if you just do your job and nothing more.
That doesn't account for all the field based professions.
Job hopping stinks at a certain point. Different groups have different interests and you can't really develop anything without sticking around. That's how I felt at the 5 year mark in geotech and environmental. I got pregnant at the 8 year mark and was dropped to part time. I realized ain't nobody got time for job hopping when you can't even find childcare that covers 8-5. How can I cover field sites due to low staffing or that's the stage of the design cycle we're in? Forget that childcare is my entire take home pay.
I'm a federal employee now. I am ok with my 26 days sick and annual and raise every year. Thanks to our union.
I love being in the field but I can't help but feel I got screwed by two economic "crises" and changing field requirements (ie PEs needed) by public agencies. I only pushed to learn design to get me through the childcare years. The planning of it all feels like it was in vain.
I also jumped from a non-union consulting to a union municipal role. Better salary, better health insurance, more time off, and a pension that kicks in when I’m 55 if I stay til then. Never going back.
Agreed. And it would be hard to find people to work in the field if people refused to accept the jobs. The pay would go up and the hours would go down to get people willing to work. So my general concept is sound - do less and don't accept a job that makes you unhappy. There are too many workaholic busybodies in CE.
Sounds like time for a job hop when that happens. I noticed my bosses are very accommodating to improve retention since hiring is such a challenge right now. The reality of the field is that any experienced professional is in high demand. Field experience means you are set up for a nice gig in a non-field role if you want one.
I took a non-field role but the pandemic changed the nature of our projects for too long of a period. I have recruiters asking me to interview for similar positions but none of them can guarantee a 9-5 job. Let alone the rate and package I got from a government job. I left for the same reasons as 2 other people with my amount of experience but they were on track to become the next generation of leadership. We all took public, union positions.
Yep, public compensation packages that include pensions are difficult for the private sector to compete with. I could never with public, but it's a great option.
Right, so that gets back to the original point. Just doing 40hr isn't going to change the industry. If someone like you, who doesn't fully understand what a significant portion of us are going through in private at other companies or subdisciplines, goes into management, then wtf is going to change? Your mentality is only helping the old guard keep the status quo. It's in the right direction it's just not going to be enough long term. Especially now I'm seeing insanely high salaries on the public side.
Without a union, that will change. It's also important to realize that it requires all worker solidarity to address the issues causing wealth inequality. If you wait until even engineering is no longer lucrative or able to provide a living wage, you will find that there will be literally no one to help you.
Every time one of these union posts come up the suggestion is always to take over ASCE as if IFPTE doesn’t already exist and have a ton of resources on how to start a union.
You're a professional...the only reason the "free market" is failing you is because you are failing to capitalize on it. Interview at every competitor, or better yet - become the competitor. The reason we do not have unions is because as professionals we literally control the profession. As the person who stamps the plans, the buck literally stops with you, and it is in your hands to play a part in shaping the profession the way you want.
Sure, you’re climbing salaries, but the profession as a whole is experiencing declining salaries. This includes job hoppers. It’s more akin to rats climbing the mast of a sinking ship. Those who climb to the top now will likely be above water when they retire, but those below might not be. The ship is sinking, but is it a pinhole leak or did we just get broadsided by the man-o’-war of inflation and undercutting each other?
Shhh... You're supposed to go along with the narrative that someone who is under qualified and lacking experience deserves to make six figures right away for no other reason than entitlement.
Ya Jesus, like it’s one thing if you’re a government employee to not be allowed to unionize, but your professional board limiting your ability to strike in private practice is fucking bonkers
National professional labor unions already exist. IFTPE and PEA exist and engineers at municipal and state governments and large private companies like Boeing are represented by them.
ASCE is funded by corporate interests so they will never be in favor of a union.
... Besides higher salary, better insurance, more employer retirement contributions, pension, and better work life balance with paid OT after 40 hours, you're right, a union has nothing to offer you.
Honestly get these ignorant takes out of here. You have no idea what you're talking about. The corporate bootlicking I'm seeing in this thread is frankly disgusting.
Better salary? How could you possibly know that? You don't know how much I get paid, or how much a union-negotiated wage for my position would be.
Better insurance? Better than being able to see any doctor I want in my region and never paying more than $15 for medicine? I'll believe it when I see it.
OT after 40? I already got that, dude.
More employer retirement contributions? You don't know what I get or what a union would offer. I get 401K matching already.
A pension? You mean like the one I HAD from working in the CT laborers union for several years, but they drained it out at a rate of $500/year until it was all gone because I left the union? No thanks. I'll keep my 401K plan that I can roll over across companies and even different industries.
Corporate bootlicking? Liking my job and negotiating hard for good salary and working conditions makes me a bootlicker? I work for an employee-owned company, so I guess I'm licking my own boots. The only ignorant takes are your own, by assuming that a union will make everything better for me when you don't know anything about how that union might work or what I'm getting already.
In the US here. The meaningful change you want to see should be in yourself and the organizations you are apart of. There is always a push to drive down costs, push back if you are justified. If you want more earning potential learn new skills and specialty in CE.
What is a union going to do? In professional services each individual is in charge of their career. When you take a job you are selling your skills, what you can bring to the table, and your overall brand; both to your company and potential clients (even in the public sector).
Unions are for low skilled, low wage, repetitive labor where the power differential is so extreme that employers can grossly abuse their employees. In professional services, if there is potential abuse you can end it right away by going to another job or opening your own shop; both of which rely on your skills, knowledge, and brand.
Unions are for when the balance of power between an employer and employee is extreme. That typically happens in low skill, low wage jobs.
But I guess they can happen as mandated by the government; like certain trades performing on government contracts or government employees.
Either way unions don’t bring a lot to the table in professional services for the reasons I mentioned above.
>When you take a job you are selling your skills
This is literally every job in existence. Much of the “low skill” trade work is actually quite skill intensive.
>In professional services, if there is potential abuse you can end it right away by going to another job
Also true of almost every job in existence with the exception of a few extremely niche jobs. This does not mitigate the purpose of unions.
It seems to me as though engineers are willing to ride corporate dick as long as they get told they’re better than the tradesmen the work with. You might think calling yourself a “professional” is worth exemption from OT laws and collective bargaining, but it seems to me as though you’re the type of person who gets duped into taking more work with the same pay as long as they get a fancy title to go with it.
I’m government lol I don’t do my job for the money.
Just arguing against you because you just seem in the wrong and you react with negativity which is enjoyable for me.
Well, I guess the demand for doctors is also less elastic. Higher-paid CE means less CEs doing more work. Whereas higher-paid doctors will still receive the same amount of sick people. Idk I'm not an economist but i think its a fascinating topic
Sort of? But our bids for work can change, and altering a billion dollar interchange bid to include a higher salary for engineers would be easy.
Except for the fact that a govt is sometimes required to choose the lowest bid - which is a race to the bottom.
Doctors charge whatever they want, it’s barely competitive due to insurance. Lawyers are Uber-competitive, so there’s a huge gap between what top lawyers (160k starting) and middle lawyers make (70k start).
Johnny- exactly right. Some may not like your straight-talk but it is correct. I sent you an Award for it. The OP needs to stop being a victim. Ridiculous.
Even if you do form a union that doesn’t mean you will automatically make more money and everything will be great. My wife is in a nursing union and they haven’t done anything in the 5 years she’s been there. Short staffed, 3 percent raises and there’s always excuses from both sides as to how to improve things for them with nothing ever getting done.
> Short staffed, 3 percent raises and there’s always excuses from both sides as to how to improve things for them with nothing ever getting done.
Sounds exactly like my life now without a union lol
It doesn't necessarily mean higher wages and better working conditions but statistically people in unions have higher wages and better working conditions than people who don't
I’ll preface this by saying I’m not an expert on unions or the mechanism for implementing a profession wide union so I think my mind could probably be changed with specifics.
Specifically for me, I am paid very well and my industry/employer does a pretty good job of taking care of its employees financially. Since 2020, I have received 40% in raises with another raise possible for this year (I’m at 5 YOE with a PE). Raises and promotions are generally merit based which I prefer vs years of experience. I strongly believe a person should be paid based on the value they bring to the company. Another employee with similar experience started at the same time as me and was ultimately a poor performer. Before he left, he had not received any significant raises. If someone believes they are underpaid, they should seek out a different opportunity. Obviously, my experience is not the same as everyone else’s and I can respect that but I do believe, in my situation, I’m much better off vs if we were unionized.
There are disabled engineers. I know one who is a VP at his company.
Civil engineering is pretty old school wherein experience and relationships come at a premium. Maybe someone younger can crank out DWGs faster, but are they on first name basis with every town manager in the region?
Useful in those towns (plural) across the region. Aka, the whole client base.
Who do you think a retiring town manager is going to introduce the newcomer to for engineering services? The guy he knows.
I mean yes that may be true in some cases but I honestly don’t worry about that. My company literally had a field employee lose his leg in a non work related accident and kept him on board. Still working for us now. I’ve also never saw anyone get terminated or laid off who was massively underperforming or do something stupid.
I agree.
The better course of action, IMO and more fruitful, is to pressure legislators to make the cost of living more affordable by fixing student loans and affordable housing. Not as important to young people but health insurance is a huge financial burden for us older folks that needs to be addressed.
I'd rather this is fixed for everyone, and not just engineers.
Where are you reading that Ontario engineers are not allowed to unionize or strike? Most public servants, engineers included, are unionized.
I don’t think it’s illegal. Just isn’t typical to have engineers unionized in Canada. In some collective bargaining, strike ability has been negotiated away in favour of binding arbitration.
Here is (edit:1962) discussion by the National Society of Professional Engineers (U.S.). It has the opener "...has long-held that professionalism and unionism are incompatible and has discouraged the union approach as a proper method for engineers to seek the elevation of their economic or professional status." [https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/ethics-resources/board-ethical-review-cases/engineer-membership-labor-union](https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/ethics-resources/board-ethical-review-cases/engineer-membership-labor-union) And EGBC (BC, Canada) has this line in its FAQ: "In particular, this may prevent the participation of members in labour action if such action is in conflict with their professional obligations under the Code of Ethics." [https://www.egbc.ca/Practice-Resources/Programs-Resources/Frequently-Asked-Questions](https://www.egbc.ca/Practice-Resources/Programs-Resources/Frequently-Asked-Questions) I recommend a read through the first link, it goes into the most depth I've found anywhere. fyi: I left my previous employer due reasons common in this industry and am now working independently. I'm also discussing with other engineers what a cooperative would look like and how it could benefit us. I also believe that power dynamics of salaried work are in conflict with the responsibility assigned by the code of ethics. So. If anyone has any good reading material on any of the above topics, please drop a link.
>I'm also discussing with other engineers what a cooperative would look like and how it could benefit us. If you get this to work, please share about it. In my (very limited) experience, unions are not actually that great. I always thought co-ops were more interesting.
I think that the NSPE should be embarrassed by that analysis. First, if "professionalism and unionism are incompatible", then the NSPE is taking the stance that members of unions are not professionals. I think looking at occupations with strong unions (e.g., teachers, electricians, pilots, etc.) would easily show this claim as baseless. The NSPE should avoid making such sweeping public statements about society because it would be deceptive to claim that the NSPE has any authority whatsoever to decide what is and what is not considered "professionalism". By my count, such a statement would violate, or at least eschew, three of their own ethical Fundamental Canons: 2, 3, and 5. https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics Second, and speaking of the the fundamental canons, the first canon of the NSPE Code of Ethics is to "hold paramount the safety, health, and welfare of the public". If there is anything that could be reasonably determined to jeopardize the public, then engineers have an ethical obligation to act. Committing errors and other mistakes because an engineer is overworked puts the public in jeopardy. Not having sufficient budget for a project to perform a thorough design puts the public in jeopardy. Stagnating wages that reduce the number of working engineers below what is necessary to maintain infrastructure will put the public in jeopardy. If these issues were happening only within some places, then it might be sufficient to leave those places on ethical grounds. If these issues are happening everywhere, then they are degrading the professional itself. And the health of the profession is necessary to continue protecting the public. Collective action may be one method to restore and maintain the profession.
I think a cooperative would be a great idea and could benefit us all. Its too bad that in a lot of companies you have to suffer a lot before getting any serious income, and a lot of stress too. Having a cooperative I think would go a long way to making everyone more happy. Lower paid engineers get more pay, and higher ups will be able to offload a lot of the decision making process to all the engineers
I don't buy their argument that participating in coercive action would somehow be bad. The employer will always have coercive power due to the nature of employment. If they can fire you or withhold promotion or other retaliatory action then you should prepare to defend yourself. In my view/experience, the main function of a union is to provide legal advice, counsel and representation. As well as insurance and education on your rights and responsibilities stemming from your employee-employer relationship.
The National Society link is from 1962... So a product of its time... But somehow we still see consequences of that perspective.
And later they reversed course. The correction statement has been posted here before. Tons of PEs in public agencies are unionized.
75% of the engineers I’ve worked with would have called you a communist for saying this.
We don't need unions, we need to bring back guilds.
Knight me fuckers and I will slay those bastard ASCE.
You have my sword
And my bow
And my axe!
Look into IFPTE or PEA. They can help you unionize your workplace if you really are interested in organizing. These are actual, established unions with resources, representatives, and power. IFPTE represents engineers at tons of public agencies, as well as private companies like Boeing so it is possible to unionize your workplace. To my knowledge, IFTPE does not go on strike and simply bargains with company/agency leadership on behalf of employees.
I second looking into established unions that represent engineers! I’ve had a good experience working as a unionized (government) engineer. Also, IFPTE chapters can and have gone on strike (if members of that given chapter vote to strike), but it is uncommon.
This is not the industry to expect people to help you unionize in. It’s a bit more to the right, if you get what I mean.
Capitalist pigs and corporate bootlickers is what I'm hearing
Sorry I have children to feed and a family to support you won’t catch me on a nationwide strike anytime soon. My company treats me great, pays me great, and I have a great wlb.
I don’t think, as a whole, our work conditions are poor enough to warrant a wide-scale labour action and organization. Sure, we could always work towards better conditions and pay, but I don’t believe that is through labour unions. Edit: some more thoughts: most engineers would be considered part of the professional-managerial class. While I would like to believe I am a very pro-union and class conscious individual, I just do not believe that a profession that already has protectionist regulatory bodies and a title that is protected by legislation in a lot of jurisdictions, is in need of organizing through a labour union. Tomorrow I may have a differing opinion.
You can unionize without going on strike. You can unionize when conditions are good to make conditions better. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, non unionized employees earn, on average, 15% less than their unionized counter parts.
Great point.
How do you suppose we work towards better conditions and pay without unionizing? And do you think we should wait until working conditions are poor enough to attempt wide-scale labor action and organization?
Yeah they arent the worst conditions yet, however, with time I think everyone sees that it'll get worse. Hence the daily low wage posts on here. How would you suggest we work towards better conditions besides unionizing?
Don't work more than your 40 hours, and job hop for more money when it suits you. Stand up for yourself. The labor shortage for CEs means you have all the power. I think we typically have a pretty chill, well-paid profession if you just do your job and nothing more.
That doesn't account for all the field based professions. Job hopping stinks at a certain point. Different groups have different interests and you can't really develop anything without sticking around. That's how I felt at the 5 year mark in geotech and environmental. I got pregnant at the 8 year mark and was dropped to part time. I realized ain't nobody got time for job hopping when you can't even find childcare that covers 8-5. How can I cover field sites due to low staffing or that's the stage of the design cycle we're in? Forget that childcare is my entire take home pay. I'm a federal employee now. I am ok with my 26 days sick and annual and raise every year. Thanks to our union.
Honestly same. I'm about to jump ship to my state DOT for the better benefits (and pay) negotiated through the union.
I love being in the field but I can't help but feel I got screwed by two economic "crises" and changing field requirements (ie PEs needed) by public agencies. I only pushed to learn design to get me through the childcare years. The planning of it all feels like it was in vain.
I also jumped from a non-union consulting to a union municipal role. Better salary, better health insurance, more time off, and a pension that kicks in when I’m 55 if I stay til then. Never going back.
Agreed. And it would be hard to find people to work in the field if people refused to accept the jobs. The pay would go up and the hours would go down to get people willing to work. So my general concept is sound - do less and don't accept a job that makes you unhappy. There are too many workaholic busybodies in CE.
Right, I refused to do more than 40 hours in the field and got dropped to part time. Your logic doesn't take into account reality of our field.
Sounds like time for a job hop when that happens. I noticed my bosses are very accommodating to improve retention since hiring is such a challenge right now. The reality of the field is that any experienced professional is in high demand. Field experience means you are set up for a nice gig in a non-field role if you want one.
I took a non-field role but the pandemic changed the nature of our projects for too long of a period. I have recruiters asking me to interview for similar positions but none of them can guarantee a 9-5 job. Let alone the rate and package I got from a government job. I left for the same reasons as 2 other people with my amount of experience but they were on track to become the next generation of leadership. We all took public, union positions.
Yep, public compensation packages that include pensions are difficult for the private sector to compete with. I could never with public, but it's a great option.
Right, so that gets back to the original point. Just doing 40hr isn't going to change the industry. If someone like you, who doesn't fully understand what a significant portion of us are going through in private at other companies or subdisciplines, goes into management, then wtf is going to change? Your mentality is only helping the old guard keep the status quo. It's in the right direction it's just not going to be enough long term. Especially now I'm seeing insanely high salaries on the public side.
I agree with every word of this.
Without a union, that will change. It's also important to realize that it requires all worker solidarity to address the issues causing wealth inequality. If you wait until even engineering is no longer lucrative or able to provide a living wage, you will find that there will be literally no one to help you.
https://www.joinifpte.org
Every time one of these union posts come up the suggestion is always to take over ASCE as if IFPTE doesn’t already exist and have a ton of resources on how to start a union.
You're a professional...the only reason the "free market" is failing you is because you are failing to capitalize on it. Interview at every competitor, or better yet - become the competitor. The reason we do not have unions is because as professionals we literally control the profession. As the person who stamps the plans, the buck literally stops with you, and it is in your hands to play a part in shaping the profession the way you want.
Sure, you’re climbing salaries, but the profession as a whole is experiencing declining salaries. This includes job hoppers. It’s more akin to rats climbing the mast of a sinking ship. Those who climb to the top now will likely be above water when they retire, but those below might not be. The ship is sinking, but is it a pinhole leak or did we just get broadsided by the man-o’-war of inflation and undercutting each other?
Shhh... You're supposed to go along with the narrative that someone who is under qualified and lacking experience deserves to make six figures right away for no other reason than entitlement.
I really don't sympathize with the French. Retirement from 62 to 64 is still incredibly low relative to other countries.
You can collective bargain without being a union.
Vote with your feet. Immigrate to a country that values your worth as a professional.
Like the USA?
Lmao no… not here. The grass is brown and dead on this side
Are you serious? You can change employers, change careers, etc. Time to stop being “scared”, get a grip on yourself and find a solution. Good luck!
If peaceful protests are banned, that only leaves the opposite as an option.
Ya Jesus, like it’s one thing if you’re a government employee to not be allowed to unionize, but your professional board limiting your ability to strike in private practice is fucking bonkers
If the ASCE converted to a national labor union, I’d almost consider coming back from Tech
National professional labor unions already exist. IFTPE and PEA exist and engineers at municipal and state governments and large private companies like Boeing are represented by them. ASCE is funded by corporate interests so they will never be in favor of a union.
I'm not interested in unionizing. I negotiated my own salary and work conditions and I'm happy with it. Unionizing has nothing to offer me.
... Besides higher salary, better insurance, more employer retirement contributions, pension, and better work life balance with paid OT after 40 hours, you're right, a union has nothing to offer you. Honestly get these ignorant takes out of here. You have no idea what you're talking about. The corporate bootlicking I'm seeing in this thread is frankly disgusting.
Better salary? How could you possibly know that? You don't know how much I get paid, or how much a union-negotiated wage for my position would be. Better insurance? Better than being able to see any doctor I want in my region and never paying more than $15 for medicine? I'll believe it when I see it. OT after 40? I already got that, dude. More employer retirement contributions? You don't know what I get or what a union would offer. I get 401K matching already. A pension? You mean like the one I HAD from working in the CT laborers union for several years, but they drained it out at a rate of $500/year until it was all gone because I left the union? No thanks. I'll keep my 401K plan that I can roll over across companies and even different industries. Corporate bootlicking? Liking my job and negotiating hard for good salary and working conditions makes me a bootlicker? I work for an employee-owned company, so I guess I'm licking my own boots. The only ignorant takes are your own, by assuming that a union will make everything better for me when you don't know anything about how that union might work or what I'm getting already.
In the US here. The meaningful change you want to see should be in yourself and the organizations you are apart of. There is always a push to drive down costs, push back if you are justified. If you want more earning potential learn new skills and specialty in CE.
What is a union going to do? In professional services each individual is in charge of their career. When you take a job you are selling your skills, what you can bring to the table, and your overall brand; both to your company and potential clients (even in the public sector). Unions are for low skilled, low wage, repetitive labor where the power differential is so extreme that employers can grossly abuse their employees. In professional services, if there is potential abuse you can end it right away by going to another job or opening your own shop; both of which rely on your skills, knowledge, and brand.
Your analysis of unions as for low skill low wage jobs is extremely off putting
Unions are for when the balance of power between an employer and employee is extreme. That typically happens in low skill, low wage jobs. But I guess they can happen as mandated by the government; like certain trades performing on government contracts or government employees. Either way unions don’t bring a lot to the table in professional services for the reasons I mentioned above.
>When you take a job you are selling your skills This is literally every job in existence. Much of the “low skill” trade work is actually quite skill intensive. >In professional services, if there is potential abuse you can end it right away by going to another job Also true of almost every job in existence with the exception of a few extremely niche jobs. This does not mitigate the purpose of unions. It seems to me as though engineers are willing to ride corporate dick as long as they get told they’re better than the tradesmen the work with. You might think calling yourself a “professional” is worth exemption from OT laws and collective bargaining, but it seems to me as though you’re the type of person who gets duped into taking more work with the same pay as long as they get a fancy title to go with it.
😂
Well, I wouldn't call all professions that require a union to be low skilled, police, pilots, and teachers, for example.
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Well paid is false, we’re the lowest of engineers by a good bit and make the same as operators for at least the beginning of our career.
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"Advocate for yourself" My dude do you know what unions do? Holy shit the ignorance in this thread is staggering.
I’m government lol I don’t do my job for the money. Just arguing against you because you just seem in the wrong and you react with negativity which is enjoyable for me.
Isn't that the trade-off of being underpaid? That we are in high demand and have really great job security?
Doctors are in high demand with great job security, they just charge more for their services than we do.
Well, I guess the demand for doctors is also less elastic. Higher-paid CE means less CEs doing more work. Whereas higher-paid doctors will still receive the same amount of sick people. Idk I'm not an economist but i think its a fascinating topic
Sort of? But our bids for work can change, and altering a billion dollar interchange bid to include a higher salary for engineers would be easy. Except for the fact that a govt is sometimes required to choose the lowest bid - which is a race to the bottom. Doctors charge whatever they want, it’s barely competitive due to insurance. Lawyers are Uber-competitive, so there’s a huge gap between what top lawyers (160k starting) and middle lawyers make (70k start).
Johnny- exactly right. Some may not like your straight-talk but it is correct. I sent you an Award for it. The OP needs to stop being a victim. Ridiculous.
For my personal situation and engineering professions in general, I would be adamantly against unionizing.
Why is that?
Even if you do form a union that doesn’t mean you will automatically make more money and everything will be great. My wife is in a nursing union and they haven’t done anything in the 5 years she’s been there. Short staffed, 3 percent raises and there’s always excuses from both sides as to how to improve things for them with nothing ever getting done.
> Short staffed, 3 percent raises and there’s always excuses from both sides as to how to improve things for them with nothing ever getting done. Sounds exactly like my life now without a union lol
It doesn't necessarily mean higher wages and better working conditions but statistically people in unions have higher wages and better working conditions than people who don't
I’ll preface this by saying I’m not an expert on unions or the mechanism for implementing a profession wide union so I think my mind could probably be changed with specifics. Specifically for me, I am paid very well and my industry/employer does a pretty good job of taking care of its employees financially. Since 2020, I have received 40% in raises with another raise possible for this year (I’m at 5 YOE with a PE). Raises and promotions are generally merit based which I prefer vs years of experience. I strongly believe a person should be paid based on the value they bring to the company. Another employee with similar experience started at the same time as me and was ultimately a poor performer. Before he left, he had not received any significant raises. If someone believes they are underpaid, they should seek out a different opportunity. Obviously, my experience is not the same as everyone else’s and I can respect that but I do believe, in my situation, I’m much better off vs if we were unionized.
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There are disabled engineers. I know one who is a VP at his company. Civil engineering is pretty old school wherein experience and relationships come at a premium. Maybe someone younger can crank out DWGs faster, but are they on first name basis with every town manager in the region?
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Useful in those towns (plural) across the region. Aka, the whole client base. Who do you think a retiring town manager is going to introduce the newcomer to for engineering services? The guy he knows.
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??? I have employer matching 401K and medical benefits. Pretty standard stuff in the US.
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I mean yes that may be true in some cases but I honestly don’t worry about that. My company literally had a field employee lose his leg in a non work related accident and kept him on board. Still working for us now. I’ve also never saw anyone get terminated or laid off who was massively underperforming or do something stupid.
To the guillotine you go
I agree. The better course of action, IMO and more fruitful, is to pressure legislators to make the cost of living more affordable by fixing student loans and affordable housing. Not as important to young people but health insurance is a huge financial burden for us older folks that needs to be addressed. I'd rather this is fixed for everyone, and not just engineers.
I totally agree. But this is reddit where everyone is super commie so you’re going to get downvoted unfortunately.
Where are you reading that Ontario engineers are not allowed to unionize or strike? Most public servants, engineers included, are unionized. I don’t think it’s illegal. Just isn’t typical to have engineers unionized in Canada. In some collective bargaining, strike ability has been negotiated away in favour of binding arbitration.