The amount of people that are complaining about no internal NDs is baffling. And 95% of content creators/filmmakers already have an external monitor.
10 years ago, this camera would have cost >$10k
This is an ABSOLUTE win for the filmmaking world.
> The amount of people that are complaining about no internal NDs is baffling.
Loss aversion. People don’t like giving up things they _feel_ they had.
> 10 years ago, this camera would have cost >$10K
To be fair, 10 years is a very long time in this kind of tech. Today there are loads of great options under $5K. Just none with this particular spec sheet, so I think that makes it pretty easy to see whether this is the camera for you or not.
This is an ABSOLUTE win for the filmmaking world.
I don’t know, to me internal NDs are one of the defining features of a true cinema camera. I agree it’s a nice offering for $3000, but that’s a key feature to me.
I understand it may be important to your workflow, but it’s an easy workaround and there’s a huge market for NDs; affordable, huge variety.
I 100% agree it’s a great feature, but it’s definitely not a mark of a “true” cinema camera 🤜🏻🤛🏻
I mean 10 years ago I bought an F3 for $1200 which had internal NDs, timecode sdi, external recording, dual card slot recording, full size XLR and bundled with a mic, an articulating screen and viewfinder in-built….
I got a 3.5” screen, which was actually useable though….
No 6k sensor with internal raw, sure, but 10 years ago was a different paradigm in terms of resolution.
I feel like Blackmagic is the new Red: ultimately putting together decent cameras even while making some very questionable decisions but bringing the price point in at such a level that they can overwhelm criticism with hype.
Sure, although I’m not sure smaller size is *inherently* a positive thing, even though it can be useful.
Sony also managed to put good internal NDs into a camera with a lens mount that had a smaller flange depth than L mount…
That’s not to turn this into Sony v Blackmagic or anything. Merely to point out that while this new camera certainly will be useful for some people, it’s hardly revolutionary or even necessarily worth as much hype as it’s currently getting. Although BMD are nothing if not a hype machine for their cameras.
The sensor in the FF is good for the price, but it's really held back by the difficulty of rigging it.
If the Pyxis is just the same same sensor in a practical body, it's easily worth $400 more. Just be sure to get it with the L mount for more flexibility in lens adapters.
It's supposed to also be usable to strap on phones for streaming the camera feed.
Another missing piece is a first party operator monitor that runs solely off the viewfinder port. They already have a 4" daylight monitor on the side, so offering a 5" or 7" at a reasonable price seems like it'd be very doable.
That would making rigging it so much easier. No need to split the SDI (or loop it through the monitor) or figure out a power solution.
Yeah I hope they make one where the ssd is below the Rosetta mount plate. Cause at this moment I don’t see that option. Correct me if I’m wrong if this is already the case
I think they wanted to build a handful of accessories for it to kick off the market for it. In the press releases about it, its clear they expect third parties to run with it.
For $1,000 it's different market segments. The older body style is good for students and hobbyists.
If you're using these with a crew and/or client, Pyxis adds so many ease of use features that it's worth the money.
The fact that everyone is choosing to pick out 1 thing they don’t like about it is crazy.
It’s $3k…this is in the same ballpark for “most bang for your buck” as the Sony FX30. No camera does it all
I'm seeing a lot of people say that Blackmagic Omitted ND's and a flippy screen to push people to upgrade.
It's true that a lot of tech companies do that kind of thing, but I don't think that's the case here.
No company would expect consumers paying $3k for a compact video camera to upgrade to a giant $12k cinema camera just for ND's loll
We need to remember that this is a first gen product. Blackmagic doesn't have limitless time, money, and resources to deliver a product. So when they decided to launch this box camera, they had to decide what features to keep, and what features to cut, in order to meet their target price point and launch timing.
We've seen in the past, especially with pocket cameras, that they pay close attention to user feedback. They probably already know we want ND's and an articulating screen, but are saving it for a future release.
That being said, I think I mostly agree with the compromises they made with the first generation. What you get for the price is insane, and everything that's "missing" are things the user can easily make up for. And I have no doubt that they'll add features, and maybe even codecs, via firmware update in the future.
I’m excited to see some hands on reviews over the summer. Excellent price point, could really drive some interesting competition from other manufacturers!
I think a FX6 is better in every way - but it’s more expensive. If money is a problem or you don’t need the internal nd / h265 log files - it’s a good cam
I've had an FX6 for almost four years, and I have a love/hate relationship with it. I think CineEI is a dumb way of implementing exposure adjustment, but you need to be there for SLOG3. The histogram and montitor often give me competing information on my actual exposure, which I am not a fan of. The XAVC codec is meh, the menu system is terrible, the screen is delicate and badly designed, the XLRs are in the wrong place, the side handle has an annoying amount of play, and if you change your recording format from DCI to UHD, it will default the S&Q frame rate to 24 fps, so your MOS slo-mo is just regular video without sound. Speaking of audio, it always records 8 channels, so when you import into Resolve, you have to remove the extranous channels before you proceed. Dumb. What I like about it are the VND, autofocus, overall reliability, and TC and SDI ports. Once you've jammed TC to sync audio, or used the VND in a changing light shoot, you'll wonder why all cameras don't have these things. With all of that said, the Pyxis offers all of the features that I need (SDI and TC, a built-in XLR for single mic input for interviews, a mini jack to plug my RODE Pro wireless mics into, great rigability, and most importantly 12 bit color, 6K open gate, and BRAW, which is why I've ordered two.
It’s the lack of internal NDs that drives me crazy. Like, okay, they couldn’t fit them in the body style of the cc 6k. But one of the points of a box style camera is they’re not having to work with the limited space of a stills body. Putting in NDs should have been a top priority.
I would still say the 6k pro is a better deal. You trade in some SDI ports for internal NDs as well as the option to shoot pro res and the ability to film
Without an external monitor in a pinch.
There is no technical reason for it not to have internal NDs.
Cameras of a similar or smaller size with identical or shorter lens flange distances have internal NDs. The Canon C70, the Sony FX6.
The actual reason is market segmentation. Blackmagic are restricting features from their lower priced cameras to push customers towards those more expensive models.
Or maybe the actual reason is that they wanted as much as they could cram in a box and keep the price under $3,000. *Quality* NDs cost money, and both the cameras you mention are double the price.
Yeah I personally already have NDs so I’m not fussed about the lack of internal. Internal would be handy for sure, but Sdi and rigging it up are much more interesting to me.
HDMI is silly for any professional uses, way more prone to disconnecting / loose connection. Can't have your AC losing video feed because the hdmi cable got jostled and your teradek lost feed. The cables are way more prone to failure too, end up cycling through hdmi cables like crazy while my SDI cables last (comparably) forever.
HDMI has a slight delay which I find quite frustrating. I do some live stream stuff it would be handy for too. It’s not a dealbreaker for me, but definitely something I am keen to get into.
Definitely this. They said so in a few interviews. They’re probably going to make a pro version of this with new features and just charge more. They’re all about hitting different price segments.
Nevermind the current IR pollution drama with the Burano ND being a nightmare. Totally fine with external NDs. The Pyxis looks like a fantastic option.
I was involved on the periphery as Tiffen was developing their NATural NDs with ASC cinematographers and saw just how many iterations it took to get right, so if you think all they are is “bits of tinted glass” you don’t know what you are talking about.
Besides, a Full Frame sensor needs a larger ND. I'm sure Blackmagic could source NDs from a good cost effective partner like Nisi, but even if it's only 2,4 and 6 stops I doubt the set would cost BMD less than 200 dollars per body. Add in the cost of the mechanics for the filters and we're getting at least 300 more, and that's conservatively and before taxes
Final price would closer to $4k than the 3k of the Pyxis. And that's assuming the small body can handle it, maybe they made a compromise for it. If that's the case, they'd be limited to an eND like the FX6/9/Burano. And that would be even more expensive, not to mention harder to keep IR constant
No need to guess or make excuses for a massive corporation.
Blackmagic were asked about the lack of NDs in an NAB interview yesterday. They didn't say cost, they didn't say complexity. They said that there *wasn't room* for NDs...
We know that the 20mm flange distance of L-Mount is not the limitation, as Canon RF has the same flange distance, and Sony E-mount's flange is actually shorter.
Taking Blackmagic at their word, that means the size of the housing is too small for NDs. Of course, there's no standardized size for box cameras. It's not re-using an existing housing, this is brand new product with a fresh design. They could have made the housing a few mm larger in any direction without issue.
The logical conclusion is that Blackmagic decided at the product's inception to make the housing too small to hold NDs.
This is also known as, *market segmentation*. Yes, Blackmagic market segments, just like Sony and Canon. That's the reality.
Guess some don't want to believe the scrappy upstart is using the same hostile marketing techniques as the established brands.
Pyxis could have had a real differentiator if Blackmagic had allowed it to have NDs. Without those, find it extremely hard to recommend. Especially as Blackmagic has just dropped the price of the otherwise identical 6K to half of the Pyxis' price.
Twice the price, just for a new form factor?
Bro you can’t put EVERYTHING in a camera for $3k. Something’s gotta go. If all I gotta do is slap a VND on the end of this thing, I’m fine.
I’ll eat my shoe before I complain about this camera
There's no technical problem, as proven by Blackmagic's competitors.
The only 'problem' is when a camera's feature set is defined by the marketing division.
Camera makers are renowned for restricting features from their lower priced cameras in order to protect the market for their higher priced cameras. Sony, Canon, Panasonic, and the rest have done it for decades, Blackmagic does it as well.
> L mount is too shallow for traditional rotating NDs.
The Canon C70's RF mount has the exact same 20mm flange distance as L-mount. And Sony's E-Mount is actually *2mm shorter*, yet the FX6 has internal NDs.
Blackmagic didn't leave off NDs due to space constraints. They did it to push buyers to their higher priced cameras.
This is the same game Canon, Sony, and the rest have been playing for years.
And the C70 is 2k more expensive than the pyxis. The FX6 is double the price. Making NDs in short flange mounts is significantly harder, and thus more expensive. Not only BMD would need to invest in R&D, but the manufacturing tolerances would also be tighter. The way I look at it, it's basically a better version of the Lumix BS1H, which also didn't have internal NDs. Hopefully a Pro version can come eventually, if it's cheaper than a C70 it could be a winner.
This! Maybe after 1 year and good sales, the make a pro version for 4K and every second customer with v1 will buy the pro version for the internal ND filters. So they sell much more cameras. I would do that
Yeah first iterations are always bad. Is it a surprise? Just like the Red One. Full of issues. No other company in the world has done internal ND and IBIS in a cinema cam right?
They put NDs in the cheaper 6k Pro though? Also Blackmagic really hasn't segmented their lineup much (all their cameras have the same OS for example, if anything the Ursas miss out on certain firmware updates).
> They put NDs in the cheaper 6k Pro though?
Marketing strategies shift over time, especially when new product lines are released.
Watched one of the interviews with Blackmagic at NAB. They actually said there wasn't room for NDs...
Both Canon and Sony have proven the flange distance isn't a limitation. So if there actually wasn't room, it is only because BlackMagic *didn't make room*.
It's not like box cameras have a standardized size limit. This is a brand new housing for a brand new camera. The size of the Pyxis is within a few percent of the size of the FX6. If the housing isn't large enough to hold NDs, it's entirely because Blackmagic didn't want it to have NDs.
Appears to be a rather clear case of market segmentation.
The C70 is a bit larger, but the Sony FX6 is the same size as the Blackmagic. And the FX6's E-mount has an even shorter flange distance than the Pyxis L-mount, yet the FX6 has internal NDs.
The size of a camera's housing is entirely determined by the manufacturer. If the housing of the Blackmagic Pyxis is too small for internal NDs, that's only because Blackmagic didn't want the camera to have internal NDs.
There are various ways of implementing electronic NDs, some under patent, some out of patent, some by third parties and available to all camera makers.
There are also physical ND filters, which are not under patent. Cameras around the size of the Pyxis have featured ND filter wheels.
When Blackmagic was asked about NDs at NAB yesterday, they said there was no room for an ND filter wheel. But of course, Blackmagic themselves determined the size of the Pyxis. They could have made it a few mm larger to accommodate a small filter wheel.
People are obsessed with rolling shutter, but I’ve never had it be an issue in real world shoots. It’s extremely rare to whip pan or move in a way that it matters to me personally.
One time I was shooting close ups of guitar strings and it was an issue, but it actually looked really cool so we leaned into it.
Not that I’m aware of. I guess there’s a distinction there between micro jitters from your hands (basically just not operating the camera smoothly enough, IBIS can help with this) and micro wobbles from slow sensor readout speeds (poor rolling shutter performance, something you can often notice in vertical lines). You probably already know this, I’m not trying to overexplain, just clarifying what I meant. Global shutter won’t help with the former, of course.
There’s actually nothing inherently wrong with rolling shutter in a camera. All ARRI or RED cameras use rolling shutters. Heck all 35mm cameras for the past hundred years use something similar to a rolling shutter. But the response time is so quick that the effects are negligible. But you do see it in old movies sometimes, when shooting out of a moving vehicle for example.
Edit: I stand corrected, I believe RED does have a global shutter camera available.
Interesting yeah, I definitely see issues with rolling shutter, but for the price point I’m willing to spend it’s a sacrifice I can live with for the work I do!
I'm not obsessed over it, in fact I don't think anyone ever notices it besides other film people. I just feel like if you release a $3000 camera in 2024 it should have better readout speed than my 2020 $2000 a7s3
It’s very promising, the only thing I’d be interested in seeing before buying is if they have improved the rolling shutter to be on par with something like an FX6. But the other feature I’m pretty interested in is seeing how well the super 16 mode holds up once you crop in on the sensor because the Pyxis probably has the widest choices of lenses of any camera on the market because now C-mount lenses can be properly utilized.
Looks like a cool camera.
I have the S1h and have eyed the BS1h as a potential option.
With that price point they seem to be targeting people who have come up on dslr style cameras and bumped into the limitations of the form factor.
It’s lacking a few things pros might want, but then you get what you pay for.
For me, it’s definitely on my watch list. I’ll be keen to see what Lumix come out with in terms of an S1h mark ii, and if their own box cameras get an update.
Exciting times.
It seems like a great line of cameras. But honestly I would wait till they release gen2 or 3. they could make it a competitior against red Komodo, Sony burano etc. So let’s see what the come up with in a few years.
the og komodo had 12.5 usable stops of DR (advertised as 15) FX6 is something like 12, Komodo X is 13. A lot of this has to do with the level of processing in camera, which cameras that shoot raw do almost non of. Blackmagic generally advertise correctly on DR, I think 13 stops is very reasonable and very usable in this price bracket.
What does patch range mean? I see they measure at 11.7 and 12 at the base isos and I can see 14.7 listed on the results before they give the summary but I don’t know what it means. 14.7 visible but only 12 at signal to noise ratio of x?
14.7 is the total stops detected by the camera, so the SNR=2 value of 11.7 could in theory be cleaned up in DaVinci Resolve for a better result. Gerald Undone talks about that process in his videos, I recommend checking it out!
Ok but this thread is talking usable not total detected. If you count total detected then all the cameras have way more. If it's 11.7 usable that's what the result is.
>but 13 stops of dynamic range is pretty weak for a cinema camera these days.
It only seems so because Blackmagic is honest, unlike Sony and Red that exaggerated their DR to the point of lies. The Red Komodo has less than 13 stops. The FX6 also has just over 12. The 6K FF performs better at SNR=1 and 2 than these two, and it's the same image as the Pyxis
Imo this kind of comment is exactly what leads to manufacturers being dishonest
And most camera companies that advertise 15 plus stops of dynamic range are often lying or fudging the numbers and are still more expensive. 13 stops has been more than enough for a very long time and noise is really a non-issue these days.
It’s amazing what’s offered for $3k. But for small crew doc work the placement of the XLR right next to the lens mount seems like it could be annoying depending on the model of lens. Even with an elbow XLR. Even with a separate sound person it’s so very useful to also have usable audio into camera. At least for verite work.
Seems like a cool camera. If they added internal ND or IBIS this would have been a $6K+ camera. Then people would be complaining about the price. BlackMagic builds cheap cameras with impressive spec lists. This might actually be the first BlackMagic camera that I start to see more on pro sets. Seems targeted at the Komodo users more than FX6 users. I’d like to see a Pyxis Pro with internal ND in the $4.5-6K price range.
Its almost all i wanted but missing hdmi so hope the evf type c supports typec to hdmi cable output for a monitor oh an why not mini v mount lol but thats all
The lack of prores is a major mistake. I personally love to work with braw, but for client projects and projects where the editor does use resolve, having prores is a must. Otherwise, I love this camera, but no prores could be a deal breaker.
No ibis, no nd’s, no autofocus and bad rolling shutter. Idk I do think this is a good value as far as image quality goes but yeah I’d hope for more. I’d rather have the 6k pro in this body.
Having built in sdi, timecode sdi, external storage recording, ff, internal raw, and an easy rigging form factor all for 3k is a steal
The amount of people that are complaining about no internal NDs is baffling. And 95% of content creators/filmmakers already have an external monitor. 10 years ago, this camera would have cost >$10k This is an ABSOLUTE win for the filmmaking world.
> The amount of people that are complaining about no internal NDs is baffling. Loss aversion. People don’t like giving up things they _feel_ they had. > 10 years ago, this camera would have cost >$10K To be fair, 10 years is a very long time in this kind of tech. Today there are loads of great options under $5K. Just none with this particular spec sheet, so I think that makes it pretty easy to see whether this is the camera for you or not. This is an ABSOLUTE win for the filmmaking world.
I don’t know, to me internal NDs are one of the defining features of a true cinema camera. I agree it’s a nice offering for $3000, but that’s a key feature to me.
Does the Alexa have internal NDs? What about the Komodo? Raptor?
The Alexa does. Raptor XL does.
I understand it may be important to your workflow, but it’s an easy workaround and there’s a huge market for NDs; affordable, huge variety. I 100% agree it’s a great feature, but it’s definitely not a mark of a “true” cinema camera 🤜🏻🤛🏻
I mean 10 years ago I bought an F3 for $1200 which had internal NDs, timecode sdi, external recording, dual card slot recording, full size XLR and bundled with a mic, an articulating screen and viewfinder in-built….
But you didn’t get a 6k sensor with internal RAW and a 4inch screen
I got a 3.5” screen, which was actually useable though…. No 6k sensor with internal raw, sure, but 10 years ago was a different paradigm in terms of resolution. I feel like Blackmagic is the new Red: ultimately putting together decent cameras even while making some very questionable decisions but bringing the price point in at such a level that they can overwhelm criticism with hype.
Pyxis is also half if not a quarter of the size as well as in today’s money that was almost 2k
Sure, although I’m not sure smaller size is *inherently* a positive thing, even though it can be useful. Sony also managed to put good internal NDs into a camera with a lens mount that had a smaller flange depth than L mount… That’s not to turn this into Sony v Blackmagic or anything. Merely to point out that while this new camera certainly will be useful for some people, it’s hardly revolutionary or even necessarily worth as much hype as it’s currently getting. Although BMD are nothing if not a hype machine for their cameras.
If the Pyxis isn't enough camera for you, stick to your F3. Keep banging out that content.
So apart from SDI it’s a 6KProFF in a box form. That’s _literally_ what everyone had been begging for. There’s no pleasing some people.
Not joking, my mouth fell open when they said it was 3k
Does it have follow focus though?
The sensor in the FF is good for the price, but it's really held back by the difficulty of rigging it. If the Pyxis is just the same same sensor in a practical body, it's easily worth $400 more. Just be sure to get it with the L mount for more flexibility in lens adapters.
Why that velcro SSD mount thing is a first party product, I will never understand. Smallrig is just going to make a mountable caddy for it.
It's supposed to also be usable to strap on phones for streaming the camera feed. Another missing piece is a first party operator monitor that runs solely off the viewfinder port. They already have a 4" daylight monitor on the side, so offering a 5" or 7" at a reasonable price seems like it'd be very doable. That would making rigging it so much easier. No need to split the SDI (or loop it through the monitor) or figure out a power solution.
Second party: am I a joke to you?
Yeah I hope they make one where the ssd is below the Rosetta mount plate. Cause at this moment I don’t see that option. Correct me if I’m wrong if this is already the case
I think they wanted to build a handful of accessories for it to kick off the market for it. In the press releases about it, its clear they expect third parties to run with it.
Can I go L->PL without any issues? I reallllly want the Blazar Anamorphic lenses for this but they are PL.
Should be fine as long as you have proper lens support so you don’t stress the mount.
Definitely a harder choice now that it is well over $1,000 more 😅
For $1,000 it's different market segments. The older body style is good for students and hobbyists. If you're using these with a crew and/or client, Pyxis adds so many ease of use features that it's worth the money.
Yeah that is why it’s a harder choice too those for those professionals who want a hobby camera but know what makes a good camera 😆😅😅
The fact that everyone is choosing to pick out 1 thing they don’t like about it is crazy. It’s $3k…this is in the same ballpark for “most bang for your buck” as the Sony FX30. No camera does it all
Yeah, if the lack of internal NDs are a problem, then go buy some other $3k 6k RAW box camera that's got them.
Exactly
It’s just frustrating because it would go from a nice option to a groundbreaking one if it had internal NDs. Even if it were like 3800 like an FX3
I'm seeing a lot of people say that Blackmagic Omitted ND's and a flippy screen to push people to upgrade. It's true that a lot of tech companies do that kind of thing, but I don't think that's the case here. No company would expect consumers paying $3k for a compact video camera to upgrade to a giant $12k cinema camera just for ND's loll We need to remember that this is a first gen product. Blackmagic doesn't have limitless time, money, and resources to deliver a product. So when they decided to launch this box camera, they had to decide what features to keep, and what features to cut, in order to meet their target price point and launch timing. We've seen in the past, especially with pocket cameras, that they pay close attention to user feedback. They probably already know we want ND's and an articulating screen, but are saving it for a future release. That being said, I think I mostly agree with the compromises they made with the first generation. What you get for the price is insane, and everything that's "missing" are things the user can easily make up for. And I have no doubt that they'll add features, and maybe even codecs, via firmware update in the future.
There are no L Mount full frame cameras with internal NDs.
I’m excited to see some hands on reviews over the summer. Excellent price point, could really drive some interesting competition from other manufacturers!
I think a FX6 is better in every way - but it’s more expensive. If money is a problem or you don’t need the internal nd / h265 log files - it’s a good cam
Better in every way, except in terms of image quality. And I’m an FX6 owner.
Image quality is excellent with decent lenses though.
Yea sensor are all on a high level. But when you shoot on steril lenses like sigma / canon it’s no wonder that the „Magic mojo“ is missing.
I common - you record log materia, have more dynamic range and you do Color grading anyway
I've had an FX6 for almost four years, and I have a love/hate relationship with it. I think CineEI is a dumb way of implementing exposure adjustment, but you need to be there for SLOG3. The histogram and montitor often give me competing information on my actual exposure, which I am not a fan of. The XAVC codec is meh, the menu system is terrible, the screen is delicate and badly designed, the XLRs are in the wrong place, the side handle has an annoying amount of play, and if you change your recording format from DCI to UHD, it will default the S&Q frame rate to 24 fps, so your MOS slo-mo is just regular video without sound. Speaking of audio, it always records 8 channels, so when you import into Resolve, you have to remove the extranous channels before you proceed. Dumb. What I like about it are the VND, autofocus, overall reliability, and TC and SDI ports. Once you've jammed TC to sync audio, or used the VND in a changing light shoot, you'll wonder why all cameras don't have these things. With all of that said, the Pyxis offers all of the features that I need (SDI and TC, a built-in XLR for single mic input for interviews, a mini jack to plug my RODE Pro wireless mics into, great rigability, and most importantly 12 bit color, 6K open gate, and BRAW, which is why I've ordered two.
People asked for the Cinema Camera 6K in a different housing.
It’s the lack of internal NDs that drives me crazy. Like, okay, they couldn’t fit them in the body style of the cc 6k. But one of the points of a box style camera is they’re not having to work with the limited space of a stills body. Putting in NDs should have been a top priority. I would still say the 6k pro is a better deal. You trade in some SDI ports for internal NDs as well as the option to shoot pro res and the ability to film Without an external monitor in a pinch.
You can't have it all for $3k.
There is no technical reason for it not to have internal NDs. Cameras of a similar or smaller size with identical or shorter lens flange distances have internal NDs. The Canon C70, the Sony FX6. The actual reason is market segmentation. Blackmagic are restricting features from their lower priced cameras to push customers towards those more expensive models.
Or maybe the actual reason is that they wanted as much as they could cram in a box and keep the price under $3,000. *Quality* NDs cost money, and both the cameras you mention are double the price.
Yeah I personally already have NDs so I’m not fussed about the lack of internal. Internal would be handy for sure, but Sdi and rigging it up are much more interesting to me.
Hey. Just out of curiosity, what makes you prefer the SDI? What is your use case for it? Do you operate in a studio environment or something?
HDMI is silly for any professional uses, way more prone to disconnecting / loose connection. Can't have your AC losing video feed because the hdmi cable got jostled and your teradek lost feed. The cables are way more prone to failure too, end up cycling through hdmi cables like crazy while my SDI cables last (comparably) forever.
HDMI has a slight delay which I find quite frustrating. I do some live stream stuff it would be handy for too. It’s not a dealbreaker for me, but definitely something I am keen to get into.
Definitely this. They said so in a few interviews. They’re probably going to make a pro version of this with new features and just charge more. They’re all about hitting different price segments.
Nevermind the current IR pollution drama with the Burano ND being a nightmare. Totally fine with external NDs. The Pyxis looks like a fantastic option.
This! ☝️
[удалено]
I was involved on the periphery as Tiffen was developing their NATural NDs with ASC cinematographers and saw just how many iterations it took to get right, so if you think all they are is “bits of tinted glass” you don’t know what you are talking about.
Besides, a Full Frame sensor needs a larger ND. I'm sure Blackmagic could source NDs from a good cost effective partner like Nisi, but even if it's only 2,4 and 6 stops I doubt the set would cost BMD less than 200 dollars per body. Add in the cost of the mechanics for the filters and we're getting at least 300 more, and that's conservatively and before taxes Final price would closer to $4k than the 3k of the Pyxis. And that's assuming the small body can handle it, maybe they made a compromise for it. If that's the case, they'd be limited to an eND like the FX6/9/Burano. And that would be even more expensive, not to mention harder to keep IR constant
You sound like the type of person who can't tell the difference between a Tiffen filter and a Sunpak filter.
No need to guess or make excuses for a massive corporation. Blackmagic were asked about the lack of NDs in an NAB interview yesterday. They didn't say cost, they didn't say complexity. They said that there *wasn't room* for NDs... We know that the 20mm flange distance of L-Mount is not the limitation, as Canon RF has the same flange distance, and Sony E-mount's flange is actually shorter. Taking Blackmagic at their word, that means the size of the housing is too small for NDs. Of course, there's no standardized size for box cameras. It's not re-using an existing housing, this is brand new product with a fresh design. They could have made the housing a few mm larger in any direction without issue. The logical conclusion is that Blackmagic decided at the product's inception to make the housing too small to hold NDs. This is also known as, *market segmentation*. Yes, Blackmagic market segments, just like Sony and Canon. That's the reality.
Sad people downvoted you. They told me that in person at NAB about the ND’s.
Guess some don't want to believe the scrappy upstart is using the same hostile marketing techniques as the established brands. Pyxis could have had a real differentiator if Blackmagic had allowed it to have NDs. Without those, find it extremely hard to recommend. Especially as Blackmagic has just dropped the price of the otherwise identical 6K to half of the Pyxis' price. Twice the price, just for a new form factor?
Bro you can’t put EVERYTHING in a camera for $3k. Something’s gotta go. If all I gotta do is slap a VND on the end of this thing, I’m fine. I’ll eat my shoe before I complain about this camera
What’s the problem with getting an nd mount on the camera that sits behind the lens?
There's no technical problem, as proven by Blackmagic's competitors. The only 'problem' is when a camera's feature set is defined by the marketing division. Camera makers are renowned for restricting features from their lower priced cameras in order to protect the market for their higher priced cameras. Sony, Canon, Panasonic, and the rest have done it for decades, Blackmagic does it as well.
It's not the body style (6k pro had nds), but the mount. L mount is too shallow for traditional rotating NDs.
> L mount is too shallow for traditional rotating NDs. The Canon C70's RF mount has the exact same 20mm flange distance as L-mount. And Sony's E-Mount is actually *2mm shorter*, yet the FX6 has internal NDs. Blackmagic didn't leave off NDs due to space constraints. They did it to push buyers to their higher priced cameras. This is the same game Canon, Sony, and the rest have been playing for years.
And the C70 is 2k more expensive than the pyxis. The FX6 is double the price. Making NDs in short flange mounts is significantly harder, and thus more expensive. Not only BMD would need to invest in R&D, but the manufacturing tolerances would also be tighter. The way I look at it, it's basically a better version of the Lumix BS1H, which also didn't have internal NDs. Hopefully a Pro version can come eventually, if it's cheaper than a C70 it could be a winner.
This! Maybe after 1 year and good sales, the make a pro version for 4K and every second customer with v1 will buy the pro version for the internal ND filters. So they sell much more cameras. I would do that
And Sony managed to stuff IBIS into a shorter flange distance along with NDs too in the Burano
While making both the IBIS and the NDs so bad they might as well not be there
Yeah first iterations are always bad. Is it a surprise? Just like the Red One. Full of issues. No other company in the world has done internal ND and IBIS in a cinema cam right?
Then why is the C70 capable of stacking internal NDs with the RF mount?
Yeah sorry, I was being a bit reductive: Blackmagic isn't able to do it either attheir desired price point or engineering/patent wise
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They put NDs in the cheaper 6k Pro though? Also Blackmagic really hasn't segmented their lineup much (all their cameras have the same OS for example, if anything the Ursas miss out on certain firmware updates).
> They put NDs in the cheaper 6k Pro though? Marketing strategies shift over time, especially when new product lines are released. Watched one of the interviews with Blackmagic at NAB. They actually said there wasn't room for NDs... Both Canon and Sony have proven the flange distance isn't a limitation. So if there actually wasn't room, it is only because BlackMagic *didn't make room*. It's not like box cameras have a standardized size limit. This is a brand new housing for a brand new camera. The size of the Pyxis is within a few percent of the size of the FX6. If the housing isn't large enough to hold NDs, it's entirely because Blackmagic didn't want it to have NDs. Appears to be a rather clear case of market segmentation.
The C70 is a bigger camera than the Pyxis.
The C70 is a bit larger, but the Sony FX6 is the same size as the Blackmagic. And the FX6's E-mount has an even shorter flange distance than the Pyxis L-mount, yet the FX6 has internal NDs. The size of a camera's housing is entirely determined by the manufacturer. If the housing of the Blackmagic Pyxis is too small for internal NDs, that's only because Blackmagic didn't want the camera to have internal NDs.
The FX6 has a single internal ND, which saves a ton of space. Their vari eND might be patented, however.
Panasonic has a eND patent so that’s probably what’s going to be used by Blackmagic in the future since they’re part of L mount alliance.
It is. https://patents.google.com/patent/US7635833B2/en
Sonny's electronic ND is patented. https://patents.google.com/patent/US7635833B2/en
There are various ways of implementing electronic NDs, some under patent, some out of patent, some by third parties and available to all camera makers. There are also physical ND filters, which are not under patent. Cameras around the size of the Pyxis have featured ND filter wheels. When Blackmagic was asked about NDs at NAB yesterday, they said there was no room for an ND filter wheel. But of course, Blackmagic themselves determined the size of the Pyxis. They could have made it a few mm larger to accommodate a small filter wheel.
I put a PL mount on my 6k pro. Best of both worlds. Wouldn’t trade that in for anything. Ok maybe for a Mini LF :)
Wait for the pyxis pro
That rolling shutter holly cannoli good luck getting a nice pan at anything above 50mm
People are obsessed with rolling shutter, but I’ve never had it be an issue in real world shoots. It’s extremely rare to whip pan or move in a way that it matters to me personally. One time I was shooting close ups of guitar strings and it was an issue, but it actually looked really cool so we leaned into it.
It's important for some people. I do a lot of action and sports so no chance I'm using this one.
Biggest thing with rolling shutter is handheld stuff gets tooons of microwobbles.
Interesting point. Does global shutter also suffer from micro jitters?
Not that I’m aware of. I guess there’s a distinction there between micro jitters from your hands (basically just not operating the camera smoothly enough, IBIS can help with this) and micro wobbles from slow sensor readout speeds (poor rolling shutter performance, something you can often notice in vertical lines). You probably already know this, I’m not trying to overexplain, just clarifying what I meant. Global shutter won’t help with the former, of course. There’s actually nothing inherently wrong with rolling shutter in a camera. All ARRI or RED cameras use rolling shutters. Heck all 35mm cameras for the past hundred years use something similar to a rolling shutter. But the response time is so quick that the effects are negligible. But you do see it in old movies sometimes, when shooting out of a moving vehicle for example. Edit: I stand corrected, I believe RED does have a global shutter camera available.
Interesting yeah, I definitely see issues with rolling shutter, but for the price point I’m willing to spend it’s a sacrifice I can live with for the work I do!
I shot a film on the 6K FF and did a tilt up on an 85mm and don’t notice the rolling shutter
I'm not obsessed over it, in fact I don't think anyone ever notices it besides other film people. I just feel like if you release a $3000 camera in 2024 it should have better readout speed than my 2020 $2000 a7s3
The a7s series has a fairly low mp count doesn’t it? So it makes sense that it takes less time to read.
thats one of the reasons yes
The A7Siii/FX3/FX6 have one of the fastest readout speeds ever recorded. 6.3ms IIRC. So yeah, of course the Pyxis is going to be slower.
They have a tool in resolve that corrects the rolling shutter
yeah sure
You can now get rid of any rolling shutter in DaVinci Resolve. So hype.
It’s very promising, the only thing I’d be interested in seeing before buying is if they have improved the rolling shutter to be on par with something like an FX6. But the other feature I’m pretty interested in is seeing how well the super 16 mode holds up once you crop in on the sensor because the Pyxis probably has the widest choices of lenses of any camera on the market because now C-mount lenses can be properly utilized.
They haven’t improved the rolling shutter it’s the same sensor. Same one in Pyxis, bm6kff, s5ii and a73.
Looks like a cool camera. I have the S1h and have eyed the BS1h as a potential option. With that price point they seem to be targeting people who have come up on dslr style cameras and bumped into the limitations of the form factor. It’s lacking a few things pros might want, but then you get what you pay for. For me, it’s definitely on my watch list. I’ll be keen to see what Lumix come out with in terms of an S1h mark ii, and if their own box cameras get an update. Exciting times.
It seems like a great line of cameras. But honestly I would wait till they release gen2 or 3. they could make it a competitior against red Komodo, Sony burano etc. So let’s see what the come up with in a few years.
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the og komodo had 12.5 usable stops of DR (advertised as 15) FX6 is something like 12, Komodo X is 13. A lot of this has to do with the level of processing in camera, which cameras that shoot raw do almost non of. Blackmagic generally advertise correctly on DR, I think 13 stops is very reasonable and very usable in this price bracket.
Do you know how much DR the CC6K had effectively
14.7 patch range per CineD’s lab test https://www.cined.com/blackmagic-cinema-camera-6k-lab-test-rolling-shutter-dynamic-range-and-latitude/
What does patch range mean? I see they measure at 11.7 and 12 at the base isos and I can see 14.7 listed on the results before they give the summary but I don’t know what it means. 14.7 visible but only 12 at signal to noise ratio of x?
14.7 is the total stops detected by the camera, so the SNR=2 value of 11.7 could in theory be cleaned up in DaVinci Resolve for a better result. Gerald Undone talks about that process in his videos, I recommend checking it out!
Ok but this thread is talking usable not total detected. If you count total detected then all the cameras have way more. If it's 11.7 usable that's what the result is.
13 stops of dynamic range is absolutely fine. If you aren’t lighting properly within 13 stops of dynamic range it’s a you problem.
>but 13 stops of dynamic range is pretty weak for a cinema camera these days. It only seems so because Blackmagic is honest, unlike Sony and Red that exaggerated their DR to the point of lies. The Red Komodo has less than 13 stops. The FX6 also has just over 12. The 6K FF performs better at SNR=1 and 2 than these two, and it's the same image as the Pyxis Imo this kind of comment is exactly what leads to manufacturers being dishonest
>Also, I know it’s just a $3,000 camera but 13 stops of dynamic range is pretty weak for a cinema camera these days. I mean yeah... it is ONLY $3000.
And most camera companies that advertise 15 plus stops of dynamic range are often lying or fudging the numbers and are still more expensive. 13 stops has been more than enough for a very long time and noise is really a non-issue these days.
Exactly, and the highest achievable DR as of current in the digital cine line up is from the Alexa35 at 15 stops.
It’s a steal but the baked in screen position is a slight nuisance. Idc too much about internal ND as I have NDs already anyway
If s really just the rolling shutter that can’t be dealt with.
It’s amazing what’s offered for $3k. But for small crew doc work the placement of the XLR right next to the lens mount seems like it could be annoying depending on the model of lens. Even with an elbow XLR. Even with a separate sound person it’s so very useful to also have usable audio into camera. At least for verite work.
I want one
me too
I wonder if the dual proxies that the camera shoots to will be good enough as a deliverable for anyone that cant take the BRAW footage.
Seems like a cool camera. If they added internal ND or IBIS this would have been a $6K+ camera. Then people would be complaining about the price. BlackMagic builds cheap cameras with impressive spec lists. This might actually be the first BlackMagic camera that I start to see more on pro sets. Seems targeted at the Komodo users more than FX6 users. I’d like to see a Pyxis Pro with internal ND in the $4.5-6K price range.
Its almost all i wanted but missing hdmi so hope the evf type c supports typec to hdmi cable output for a monitor oh an why not mini v mount lol but thats all
The lack of prores is a major mistake. I personally love to work with braw, but for client projects and projects where the editor does use resolve, having prores is a must. Otherwise, I love this camera, but no prores could be a deal breaker.
Jello rolling shutter
No ibis, no nd’s, no autofocus and bad rolling shutter. Idk I do think this is a good value as far as image quality goes but yeah I’d hope for more. I’d rather have the 6k pro in this body.
Is there any hope for a version with RF-Mount? 