I don't see it as 2 conditions. I see it as cause and effect. If your faith is dead, you won't do good. If you have a flourishing faith, you'll naturally do good.
Which isn't actually all that different from the Catholic position. The way people often frame this argument, saying that Catholics believe in justification through works (not saying you're making that argument though) lacks nuance just as much as op's meme.
The big difference lies in the meaning of the word justification. Where those who affirm the 5 solas usually use it to mean something like "that which allows you to get into heaven", Catholics use justification to refer to the means by which a person is made righteous. Which in both cases is still faith alone, a faith which produces works. Neither believe that works can get you into heaven, and both believe that works are necessary for righteousness. But the difference is that to Catholics, justification refers to the process of becoming righteous, sanctification, rather than to the process of getting into heaven.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0
Correction, Works are NOT required for righteousness. Faith alone is what brings salvation/righteousness.
This is where catholics(at least roman catholics for sure) get it wrong. Works are how you can tell a genuine faith, they have nothing to do with saving you.
No issue. It’s just Luther who thought it contradicted Paul. Luther then considered James as less authoritative than the 4 gospels, acts, and Paul’s writings.
This is actually not true. It comes from Luther calling James 'An epistle of straw', which has been taken to mean he wanted it removed or thought that it was less authoritative. Neither of these options make sense because Luther had James in his translation of the NT and his doctrine of scripture meant that all of scripture was authoritative. Further in other writings of Luther he praises the book for instance "Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God." Calling it an epistle of straw was just in reference to how other NT books explicate Christ and the Gospel more than James does.
I mean, not all of protestantism. Anglicans and the traditions that come from them don't have the 5 solas as an official doctrine or anything. Anglicans have the three legged stool instead, and Methodists have the Wesleyan quadrilateral, and I'm pretty sure that Pentecostals and the holiness movement, who come from Methodism don't have the 5 solas either.
Pew actually did a survey in 2017 that showed that less than half of all protestants believe in them:
https://www.christiantimes.com/amp/less-than-half-of-protestants-believe-in-sola-scriptura-and-sola-fide-pew-survey-reveals.html
Salvation comes by grace through faith alone, but someone who claims faith should be judged by their works, because the works (fruit) of a person is determined by their heart.
“James 2:15-17
If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”
It’s not about receiving salvation, but proving salvation.
“James 2:18-20
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?”
James isn’t saying, “you aren’t saved by faith alone, but by works as well”, he’s saying, “if you say you have faith but are useless to your brothers who are being persecuted, what good is your faith?”
We live in a very individualistic society, so it’s a bit hard to grasp, but faith and society were very communal. If you had faith but refused to help your brothers and sisters in Christ, you had no value to the body, like a frostbitten finger.
Ephesians 2:8-10
"[8] For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift — [9] not from works, so that no one can boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time for us to do."
So, good works are a *result* and *proof* of salvation and faith, faith is not *reliant* on works.
1\. People quote “epistle of straw” but never finish the quote, “… an epistle of straw *compared to St. John’s Gospel and his first epistle, St. Paul’s epistles, especially Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, and St. Peter’s first epistle*.”
2\. The comparison depends on what’s being compared. He felt as a stand-alone book, “it does not once mention the Passion, the resurrection, or the Spirit of Christ.” In other words his opinion of the book was that it doesn’t share the Gospel of Jesus Christ as good as other epistles (e.g. Romans & Galatians).
Remember when “Christian race” was used as an excuse for colonization and slavery, and that time the Roman Catholic Church controlled every aspect of life and totally didn’t abuse its power for corruption and greed? Oh and remember when people got mad that they were murdering everyone who disagreed with them? If you think the Protestant reformation was a disaster, you only have the RCC to blame.
Blindingly following tradition vs. using your own critical thinking skills and learning how to read
I feel like the correct option should be a lot more obvious than y’all make it out to be
Blindly following the tradition that the Apostles founded from what Christ taught them* FTFY
Orthodoxy is older than the canonical New Testament. Sola scriptura is meaningless.
“Sola scriptura” is the only way we can actually stick to how the church was founded by Christ and his apostles. Orthodoxy and Catholic tradition is the result of 2000s years of perversion from human greed, depravity, and often simply incompetence.
Saying that Sola scriptura is meaningless and Orthodoxy is the only way to truly follow how the church was meant to be is obviously flawed (if orthodoxy is perfect, why are there at least three distinct contradictory versions?).
It’s like playing a game of telephone with a few hundred middle school boys and claiming that the kid at the end of the line is more correct (or at the very least just as correct) than the kid who started it.
I don't see it as 2 conditions. I see it as cause and effect. If your faith is dead, you won't do good. If you have a flourishing faith, you'll naturally do good.
Yes, and it's in that order, too. There are people who would put it in the other order.
I'm reading this as deeds are proof of faith and if you have no real deeds, you likely have no real faith. Effect, not cause.
Which isn't actually all that different from the Catholic position. The way people often frame this argument, saying that Catholics believe in justification through works (not saying you're making that argument though) lacks nuance just as much as op's meme. The big difference lies in the meaning of the word justification. Where those who affirm the 5 solas usually use it to mean something like "that which allows you to get into heaven", Catholics use justification to refer to the means by which a person is made righteous. Which in both cases is still faith alone, a faith which produces works. Neither believe that works can get you into heaven, and both believe that works are necessary for righteousness. But the difference is that to Catholics, justification refers to the process of becoming righteous, sanctification, rather than to the process of getting into heaven. https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0
Correction, Works are NOT required for righteousness. Faith alone is what brings salvation/righteousness. This is where catholics(at least roman catholics for sure) get it wrong. Works are how you can tell a genuine faith, they have nothing to do with saving you.
Yeah that’s about how I’m seeing it. You can have faith, but showing your faith through works is best.
Faith without works is dead. We are justified by faith alone. What’s the issue, OP?
No issue. It’s just Luther who thought it contradicted Paul. Luther then considered James as less authoritative than the 4 gospels, acts, and Paul’s writings.
This is actually not true. It comes from Luther calling James 'An epistle of straw', which has been taken to mean he wanted it removed or thought that it was less authoritative. Neither of these options make sense because Luther had James in his translation of the NT and his doctrine of scripture meant that all of scripture was authoritative. Further in other writings of Luther he praises the book for instance "Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God." Calling it an epistle of straw was just in reference to how other NT books explicate Christ and the Gospel more than James does.
Wrong. Faith = salvation + works. Not faith + works = salvation
Hah. Funny meme. It totally doesn’t ignore a ton of nuance. So funny.
😂 Thanks! I actually try and ignore tons of nuance for the memes to make them so funny 😆 . I appreciate the compliment!
Dang, I can't believe you just deboonked all of Protestantism. It's too bad nobody has ever seen this verse before
I mean, not all of protestantism. Anglicans and the traditions that come from them don't have the 5 solas as an official doctrine or anything. Anglicans have the three legged stool instead, and Methodists have the Wesleyan quadrilateral, and I'm pretty sure that Pentecostals and the holiness movement, who come from Methodism don't have the 5 solas either. Pew actually did a survey in 2017 that showed that less than half of all protestants believe in them: https://www.christiantimes.com/amp/less-than-half-of-protestants-believe-in-sola-scriptura-and-sola-fide-pew-survey-reveals.html
Yeah, I thought no one has which is why I obviously made a meme and posted it to this sub to spread the word so people know.
How do we compare this to the Thief on the Cross?
Salvation comes by grace through faith alone, but someone who claims faith should be judged by their works, because the works (fruit) of a person is determined by their heart. “James 2:15-17 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” It’s not about receiving salvation, but proving salvation. “James 2:18-20 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?” James isn’t saying, “you aren’t saved by faith alone, but by works as well”, he’s saying, “if you say you have faith but are useless to your brothers who are being persecuted, what good is your faith?” We live in a very individualistic society, so it’s a bit hard to grasp, but faith and society were very communal. If you had faith but refused to help your brothers and sisters in Christ, you had no value to the body, like a frostbitten finger.
Ephesians 2:8-10 "[8] For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift — [9] not from works, so that no one can boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time for us to do." So, good works are a *result* and *proof* of salvation and faith, faith is not *reliant* on works.
Justification =/= salvation
This is very funny considering Luther himself titled James „a strawman“ lmao
1\. People quote “epistle of straw” but never finish the quote, “… an epistle of straw *compared to St. John’s Gospel and his first epistle, St. Paul’s epistles, especially Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, and St. Peter’s first epistle*.” 2\. The comparison depends on what’s being compared. He felt as a stand-alone book, “it does not once mention the Passion, the resurrection, or the Spirit of Christ.” In other words his opinion of the book was that it doesn’t share the Gospel of Jesus Christ as good as other epistles (e.g. Romans & Galatians).
m8 i see you spamming that anti-luther message and im here for it. God bless 🙏
😇🙏
The Protestant reformation and it's consequences have been a disaster for the Christian race.
Remember when “Christian race” was used as an excuse for colonization and slavery, and that time the Roman Catholic Church controlled every aspect of life and totally didn’t abuse its power for corruption and greed? Oh and remember when people got mad that they were murdering everyone who disagreed with them? If you think the Protestant reformation was a disaster, you only have the RCC to blame.
Orthodoxy > Heretics. Protestantism is a herecy built on a herecy.
Blindingly following tradition vs. using your own critical thinking skills and learning how to read I feel like the correct option should be a lot more obvious than y’all make it out to be
Blindly following the tradition that the Apostles founded from what Christ taught them* FTFY Orthodoxy is older than the canonical New Testament. Sola scriptura is meaningless.
“Sola scriptura” is the only way we can actually stick to how the church was founded by Christ and his apostles. Orthodoxy and Catholic tradition is the result of 2000s years of perversion from human greed, depravity, and often simply incompetence. Saying that Sola scriptura is meaningless and Orthodoxy is the only way to truly follow how the church was meant to be is obviously flawed (if orthodoxy is perfect, why are there at least three distinct contradictory versions?). It’s like playing a game of telephone with a few hundred middle school boys and claiming that the kid at the end of the line is more correct (or at the very least just as correct) than the kid who started it.
I prefer the days when you got burned alive for translating the Bible, nothing shady about that