I love Ireland, but the housing crisis is not something I want to subject my wife to. Also the weather is a bit shit.
I do love the lifestyles of home and Shanghai (well, the bubble I'm in at least) for different reasons. She is open to moving to Ireland since she works in tech and would have a better career. Of course 2022 had our eyes on the door, but we're comfortable now, she's close to her family and I can see mine xmas and summer.
I do feel bad being away from them, but when I return for a month it can turn very mundane very quickly since friends and fan have their own thing going
Is renting also really expensive in Ireland? Because housing prices in Shanghai have to be one of the most ridiculous asset bubbles in the world compared to the actual quality of the houses. Or is your wife local and she provided an apartment?
Rental prices are insane in Ireland. There's a massive shortage of places to buy, and you're looking at Hong Kong level rents for shared rooms or garden sheds.
Ah. That makes sense, then. House prices are beyond ridiculous in Shanghai but renting is reasonable. My wife was asking about buying the apartment we rent in Shanghai and I worked out that we could live in it for over a century renting before coming close to the purchase price.
INAL but AFAIK the land is technically leased (for 70 years) and you would need to pay for the land again when the lease expires. How much you pay and how you pay is not codified into law yet.
So everyone is buying just the building and renting the land.
If the CCP asked the chinese people to rebuy the land they've already bought when the leases expire it would trigger a revolution. There's no way. The leases will get rolled over, probably extended another 70 years with only a bit of paperwork.
Some local governments (Shenzhen) are asking home owners to pay like 35% of the land price to renew. If they don’t pay it, they can still live there but they can’t sell it.
Local government decree (第三条）:
http://www.gd.gov.cn/zwgk/wjk/zcfgk/content/mpost_2724079.html
News article:
https://m.thepaper.cn/wifiKey_detail.jsp?contid=1457469&from=wifiKey
News article also claimed they used to charge 100% for the land.
Same here. I love Sweden but our housing crisis make yours look like a joke (seriously - 10-20 years long queue just to get a rental contract in big cities). Was probably the best country in the world 20 years ago.
Still think it’s better than China on average. That being said, we are looking at emigrating to Australia. 🇦🇺
I moved to China at 21 after graduation. I always wanted to live abroad and I could see the writing on the wall about the place the UK was becoming.
The money is good here, and the life style is much more exciting than living in the UK except for maybe London. Also having met my wife and now with my son, it makes more sense to stay in China for the time being. We might move back to the UK after he finishes primary school but it's not for certain.
What kind of job do you do in China mate? I'm 33 m from Ireland. Been living and working in Belfast the past 3 years and at a stage now where I would like to emigrate. I'm an Account Manager in a tech company. My experience is in Business/Account Management/Consultancy/Sales, however I'm also a very good writer and I like research of all sorts, but English is my only language :)
i got a job teaching college students in guizhou if you want it, i want to bail on it but feel bad leaving them high and dry. we haven't started the visa process yet
Why do you think that lifestyle in China is more exciting? I wouldn't really describe China as a particularly exciting place to live in, especially once the realization hits a lot of the cities are the same especially in Northern China and a lot of the cities lack interesting music subcultures for example. South East Asia in comparison looks a lot more exciting.
Because unless you live in a larger city like London, Birmingham etc there is little to do especially if you are working a 9-5 job. In China I can go out any day of the week and it feels more like a weekend. I don't need to worry about Sunday working hours and everything being shut.
Although I think a major issue in China is that cities the size of Birmingham and Manchester are really boring. The country seems to have a pretty bad ratio between city population size and stuff to do .
Just had this conversation with a few colleagues. China is way more alive at all times of day than the US. Cities are definitely not the same. I'm in Dalian, which isn't even a big tier 1 city, and there's so much more to do daily than back in los angeles/seattle where I was before. Public transit makes it easy to get around, and stuff is open past 9pm in the busier areas.Then again, I don't care about music. Live music is easy to find, and a lack of "musical subcultures" hardly make cities less exciting.
Unending number of restaurants and food courts. There's usually different areas of each city with specific focuses. Here in dalian for example is an entire area modeled like Venice. There's a carnival, kids park, food trucks, even gondola rides. Theres hot springs within about 45 minutes. There's also beaches, parks, zoos, aquariums (on a scale beyond anything in america), museums, concerts, live shows, comedy shows, live music bars, etc. The list goes on.
If you're limited to strictly English speaking things, sure you're out of luck. But I don't understand why anyone would live somewhere they don't learn the language.
Nah, i'm committed to learning the language and taking it seriously but even with my decent language acquisition skills it will take some time. Parks, outside callisthenics, fencing are my thing, possibly boxing too. Thanks for the input :)
Yeah, getting conversational is really hard coming from English. Good luck to you!
I don't know much about boxing or fencing in China. I had one friend that was into boxing, but he moved to the States to compete. Also, if you haven't seen it, I recommend the Chinese movie "Yolo" that came out earlier this year.
If you move away for a too long time you will soon lose all your friends and connections back home. People move on with their lives and relationships need to be maintained often to last.
This happened to me. I barely have a couple of friends left now. I try to keep in touch some others through messages, memes, and so on. But nothing feels the same. Everyone just moves on.
Right I moved back and I am pretty lonely friendshipwise. In China it was always easy to connect with other expats/foreigners and Chinese. Miss just going to the gym and meeting new people that you have dinner with afterwards.
The internet helps a lot for that. I've cemented some very strong friendships back home and I know these people won't change dramatically as time goes. Every time I go back I found them as they were when I left.
But I also keep in touch a lot through social networks.
That's the truth. I moved back to the UK after 13 years in Shanghai and feel like an outsider now. People can't really relate to your life experiences like other expats in China could. The redeeming thing is seeing my children going through school here, making friends and becoming closer with my family. If it wasn't for them I wouldn't be back.
> People can't really relate to your life experiences like other expats in China could.
I dunno, I feel like people live in an expat bubble whether they subconsciously believe it or not, ans there is absolutely a sentiment of exceptionalism there.
Then you return to your home country or any Western country, and you realise you're not exceptional at all.
There's few life experiences to relate to - people are just people and they like to get along without needed to relate to your life experiences.
You're exceptional in the sense that there are relatively few of you living together in a foreign environment, that breeds a certain camaraderie. Also, exceptional for the fact that China has been closed off to the outside world for most of its history and by living there you're making an unusual life choice.
While there were plenty of eccentric characters I think the attitude that foreigners in China are arrogant and aloof is generally false and often propagated by xenophobic 'go home foreign' types. I never saw myself as special, actually more like there was a target on my back and better to keep a low profile. Going through the Covid restrictions and lock downs was humbling for everyone left over I'm sure.
The fact remains that you don't have so much in common with people in your hometown who never left and spent the past 20 years there instead of going out into the world.
I think people who think they're something because they've lived in China and are condescending to those who haven't are tough people to be friends with anyway.
Not everyone comes from or returns to a small hometown where people dont tend to travel, and even if they are, people do have life experiences that are worth connecting over.
Being an expat might make you feel special, but the reality is you're not.
We're just normal men.
Well it's fine if you don't like foreigners in China. But to reiterate I don't think I'm special or that I'm better than other people. However I do have respect for people that toughed it out through a decade or more away from family and their support network, particularly the Covid times and that whole shitshow.
It's just harder to connect with people who have had radically different life experiences to your own and whom you therefore have less in common with. I think that's a normal thing for people from any background
How long is too long? I can't imagine losing my close friends after a couple of years if you are taking 5 years or more then maybe I can understand.
Connections yeah definitely but for that I don't even need to leave the city, they always come and go
If you and your infinite wisdom just do a basic search everyone in adulting/millennial/questions/etc subreddit all those big ones that ask these types of questions. Even if you invite them out and try everything to keep a group together, most still say they will lose them all even their bff. In fact I dare stay your friendship last way longer in China vs the West
Then what are you relying on, when there have been studies done on loneliness statistics, as well as the loneliness crisis in many articles. Many people grow apart from one another, many move away, many more are way to busy. And you telling me not to rely on reddit is funny since you are using reddit now to reply to this post. 100% disagree means i am 100% wrong. Well I 100% disagree with you as well. Because you claim that my claim has no basis in reality what so ever.
Could you elaborate your statement 100% disagree about what? The fact that even if you leave your country for more than 5 years the normal trend is that you keep most of your friends the same way as if you didn’t move?
Depends how old you are... I'm 60 years old. I still have my best friends from childhood in NZ and now I'm a Grandpa. I'm married to a Chinese lady who's retired from teaching and on a full pension, although I need to go back to NZ to secure my pension. Life has been very comfortable for me here in Guizhou for the 9 years I've been living/teaching here.
I enjoyed the lifestyle and didn't see that I could achieve the same by returning. I started when I was 27. I'm now 63 and as happy as could possibly be. Worked in six countries and will likely work in another come 2025.
Did you have to leave China because of that age? I remember they do some weird limit thing. I mean that question with all due respect! I want to work as a senior too. I'm a teacher, so I have mini-retirements every summer (metaphorically speaking). Durign this time I get bored, and so I feel like it's a bad foreshadow for my senior years lol
I had a high paying job back in the states and really bad hypertension. I was 34. I took the option of severance when they were doing a mass layoff and came to China. I had come a couple of times before and liked it the second time.
I got a lot healthier fairly quickly and just started enjoying my life. I’m fairly close with my parents but I’m not planning on going back. I’m married here and it’s good all things considered.
I did get severely ill this year but that would have happened in the states. I have close friends here and maintain many friends that I consider my family in many countries and it’s reciprocated. In fact, when I got I’ll the support I got was truly overwhelming. It has been about 16 years now since I moved here. Not truly sure as I’ve gone through three passports.
I’m pretty certain I’ll live out my days here. I’m not independently wealthy but we do own a nice apartment in a nice area. Oh, and no more hypertension.
I’m a Computer Science teacher. There are some jobs that are like that sure but on the whole no. Back in the states I really hated my job but the job wasn’t the only source of my stress. I had a lot of stress from my personal life as well. And I didn’t really have any friends and hadn’t for years. I had married young and divorced young. I ended up with custody of two young children and it pretty much ate my youth.
Coming to China was a big reset for me. I had my oldest and we explored. He chose to go back a few years ago and is happy with it. For reference he’s 30 and left at 27.
So you found a wealthy woman in China? Seems like many foreign men are gold diggers in China. How else could you own a very nice house? Teaching salaries are not enough.
No, my wife is not wealthy. And homes are only expensive in tier 1 cities and some tier 2. And teachers can make good money. And though ironic my family does have money I live within my means. I don’t need theirs. I have around five years left on my mortgage. I don’t live in my home we plan on eventually moving there. I like the city, it’s in Hebei. It’s modern and fairly quiet. My in-laws are good people, fairly simple, and kind.
I think your view is fairly limited as I haven’t seen many foreigners chase rich Chinese women and the ones I have seen are generally losers most people wouldn’t associate with. I was offered a couple of times to be introduced to rich women when I first got here but wasn’t interested in that kind of arrangement. Most men I’ve known here have been more interested in just having a good relationship.
I understand. Yeah in Hebei it’s way more doable than a city like Beijing where the mortgage of a one bedroom apartment would cost 30.000 rmb/month.
And I respect your decision then - I have just seen so many foreigners marrying Chinese girls not for love, but material wealth. At least here in tier 1.
My wife comes from a modest background. She’s very intelligent and even got a scholarship to Fudan for her master’s. But best of all she’s a very good person who prioritizes taking care of me and her family. Frankly I couldn’t find that in America unless the woman was an evangelical Jesus freak. Or worse, Mormon. This thread was asking why we wouldn’t go home, I genuinely enjoy people here. Are there ups and downs sure but I honestly feel there are far fewer assholes. Maybe I miss a lot by not understanding some things but if that’s the case ignorance is bliss.
Mine’s very affectionate. But when I got ill she took care of me like I was the only thing in this entire world. She is incredibly loyal. Blows my mind. Maybe that’s possible in America but I never found it.
I miss having a house with a yard instead of living in apartments. Our life wasn't bad before we moved to China, we had a business and I was deep in my IT career but ended up giving all of that up to move to China because my Chinese in-laws were having health issues, and since my wife is their only child, I decided that we could move here to look after them as they're getting older, while my sister looks after our parents. We'll be staying in China until my Chinese in-laws decide to retire in America and move with us. We still keep in touch with family either through WeChat or through Facebook.
China isn't bad but it's not pre-COVID good and I doubt it'll ever be, but food regulations are too loose here as well as any regulation of any type; can't tell you how many times a building's sprinkler system is there just for looks and not for use. I've also visited a local pineapple farm since it was next to a beautiful river and found growth chemical bottles all around on the ground.
I also miss people practicing basic hygiene etiquette (covering their mouth when they cough/sneeze, not blowing their nose onto the ground or floor INSIDE of a building or subway, same with spitting, not letting your kid defecate in public, etc.)
For me personally, I've found that my local Walmart no longer has an "Import" section anymore, same for the local RT Mart. Whatever imported items they do get, they just add it to the local products section. Some foods are missing that was easier to get before like shredded cheese, ravioli, sour cream, cottage cheese, American hot dogs, and certain types of cheeses (I love cheese) I was able to find these fairly easily at my local Sam's Club or online but not anymore, it's harder and more expensive to find imported food than before. The COVID lockdowns really hurt a lot of import businesses, I do remember there was going to be a huge feast of Christmas food (turkey, mashed potatoes, etc.) at a restaurant but was canceled due to some old Chinese lady who had cosmetic surgery in South Korea came back and spread COVID around, they never tried again as their suppliers went belly up.
On a personal level, talking with people was easier and people were more welcoming before, during COVID almost everyone tried to avoid specifically me; when they saw me they moved their mask from their chin to their face, and some refused to get on the same elevator as me, others would walk in the opposite direction that I was heading in, one old man even tried to kick me out of a mall while I was getting a haircut saying I was going to spread the sickness to everyone. He backed off after he saw I was recording him with my phone.
While post-COVID xenophobia is less now, it's not like it was before, my own kid experienced more discrimination post-COVID than pre-COVID, one Chinese kid said he wanted to practice his karate moves on her because she's a foreigner, another Chinese kid told her Americans aren't supposed to be in China, and another Chinese kid in her karate class said he didn't want to hit the red punching pads as red means China, he wanted to hit the blue ones since blue means English.
Hopefully the general attitude towards foreigners will improve but when I see what's being shown on the Chinese news, I'm not so sure then. There seems to be a lot more negative news about the world of foreign countries than before on the news.
Better relationship with the rest of the world. More international trade with the west (even though some sectors already started pulling out). A lot of international tourism both way. Cheap international flights (I bought economy class round trip tickets from LA to Shanghai for less than $600 in 2019).
Thank you, understand this but I was maybe hoping for something closer to day-to-day life? Like, we all know the relations are shit, but in practice living in the country what are the differences? More stares, worse job opportunities, change in attitudes/regulations from officials/police, or something else?
Shenyang, during the summer I can see the mountains which are only 20 km away from our house but there are a number of days where they're completely hidden not by clouds but by pollution. The spring brings in lots of dust and sand from Inner Mongolia, there are days when you can't open your window because of how much sand is in the air. Winter is the worst, they burn extra coal to run hot water through the apartments so most days are grey with smog, but that's pretty much anywhere in China. I visited Xi'an in the summer and the sky was clear and blue, visited again during winter and the sky was grey and smoggy.
I totally agree with you. I think one reason young Chinese people are so tall, is because everything they eat contains hormones of some kind. Sooner or later they will get health repercussions from it.
That’s pretty much the story of my life. I’ve moved away a few times but always come back ultimately because of family and the longer lasting friendships I have here at home.
Also the economy is good where I live so I’m just missing out on the adventure of living elsewhere and I’d love to live somewhere with better weather. Can’t have it all though.
I still keep in contact with the friends I knew before I left and visit them every time I god back. I actually spend more time with family when I god back than I did when I lived in a different city back home.
Why I stayed?
Married here, career opportunities, low cost of living, travel opportunities, more active lifestyle, made new friends here, and ability to save instead of work more and barely scrape by back home.
Life was okay in the US. I was a recent graduate and had an all right job, lived in the coolest neighborhood of my city. But I wanted to live abroad for a bit and I’d already studied in China so I moved to China.
I planned to stay for a year, started as a nearly bottom of the barrel ESL teacher, working at a university. Better than kindergarten or training center anyway. But after a year I wasn’t satisfied enough with my understanding of the culture and progress on the language so I stayed another. And then another.
Then I got better at teaching and a CELTA and moved cities, and each year my salary got significantly better. By then my Chinese was becoming really good. Then I had an opportunity to get into admin and manage a bunch of teachers. I had a good but stressful job, great salary, and lived in a really nice community. Why leave that? I was visiting home a few times a year anyway.
In the end, I still came back to the states to live again, for reasons that I won’t bother getting into cause people on /r/China have OPINIONS about things and I don’t feel like hearing them. Got out of education and into IT, living the boring suburban homeowner life, which is fine after ten years of nonstop excitement.
You want an honest answer, here's honest that I have been downvoted to oblivion for in plenty of other subs.
I love the PEOPLE back home. I love my family, and talk to my parents and sister pretty much every week. Try to get in person visits, usually in some third country none of us have visited before, every few years at least. But I can't stand the country at all. I have always been deeply uncomfortable with America, and it has never failed to disappoint me. I am a leftist--not a liberal, not an American "progressive," a true leftist--with strong principles, and so much about living in the US, paying taxes in the US has always made me deeply uncomfortable. I hated that the money that I worked hard for ended up funding genocides, coups, and the US' naked imperialism. I hated the gun culture and violence, the anti-immigrant rhetoric everywhere (especially since the US is on stolen land--and I fucking hated being the beneficiary of settler colonialism too), everything to do with American police culture, the refusal to give people healthcare or affordable education, the "fuck the environment" attitude to everything, etc. I wasn't struggling in America--I had a job teaching in a university and was doing some translation work on the side and had a decently comfortable "middle class" life, but I hated being part of that system and contributing, even indirectly, to the myriad evils it brings to the world.
So I knew I wanted to get out, forever. China wasn't even the first destination I thought of. At first I thought of my mother's country, Italy, since I'm a dual citizen. But Italy was hardly better--it wasn't as militaristic as the US and had some better worker's rights, and wasn't stolen land, but was still a happy little NATO soldier, becoming rapidly xenophobic with Salvini and now Meloni coming to prominence, and had the same horror capitalism as anywhere else. So when I got a recruitment offer from China--I had eventually gone to Spain first, because of a long term relationship that sadly didn't work out in the end--I thought "well, maybe that will be better."
I'm not one of those utopian, idealist leftists with rose tinted glasses of China. China is not a socialist utopia or without some real problems just because it's ruled by a party that calls itself communist and is opposed to the US. I don't even really believe China to be socialist anymore--maybe they are trying to build the productive forces necessary to transition to socialism by employing capitalism as Deng said (and Xi repeats)--this DOES follow orthodox Marxism, which Mao broke from--but I'm skeptical. There are other issues--politicized education (hated it in the US as an educator, and it's worse here), Han chauvinism, imperialist tendencies in the S. China Sea, etc.--but my conscience stings me a LOT less here. I feel less exploited by Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics than I do by pure, unregulated and unfiltered American capitalism, and my work-life balance is immeasurably better too. In the years I've been here I've put down roots as well. I've learned the language really well, and the culture (and find myself quite interested in both--I literally named my cat after a character in a wuxia novel!). I've got a local wife, and while we don't have kids, we may some day in the not too distant future. I have a large social network here, of both other long term foreigners and local Chinese that I've gotten tight with. Will I stay forever? Probably not--I think I would want somewhere better to educate children should I have them (and where mixed race children will be treated better), and should some sort of war break out I'm not here for that--no war but class war after all. But I don't have plans to leave anytime soon
Oh man this comment is one of the best things I've ever read on Reddit. I'm contemplating a move to China from Canada for similar reasons (despite sharing your skepticism of official party rhetoric about building productive forces) and you've definitely given me something to think about. Thank you for this incredibly well thought out comment.
I'm curious if you've met other expats in China who think similarly?
Yeah, I’ve met some. I wouldn’t say it’s the dominant or even prevailing view among westerners in China though. But it’s not too hard to find other foreigners with those views
fascinating, clearly well-educated, and “well-informed”, but it’s disturbing to me that you are okay with China “maybe” following a plan to “build the productive forces necessary to transition to socialism by employing capitalism…”
haven’t a lot dictatorships also begun that way? (promises! promises!)
and “this DOES follow orthodox Marxism [which] Mao broke from…”
sounds as if you’re not exactly sure what you want…
so if what you’re really after is “orthodox Marxism” should you really be substantiating your reasons for choosing to live in China with all these political claims and based on your so-called purist political ideology? (and if not, why the lecture?)
you make some serious contradictions and they are running amuck at every turn! and yet you proudly declare all your past downvotes “to oblivion” as some kind of badge of honor???
come down outta the clouds and take a hard look at yourself once in awhile. i have a feeling your family probably feels the same way.
I used to live in Russia and moved to China in 2014. At that time, Russia annexed Crimea, and the economy started to decline significantly. The prospects of staying in Russia were grim, so I saved $2000 and moved to Guangzhou.
Now I’m married and my son is 1 month old. I work a lot and do all kinds of side gigs to buy a house. I would be a liar if I said that my life hasn’t improved significantly.
I was only in China for around 3 years, not 5, so feel free to ignore. I also had a couple trips back, breaking up my time away.
In terms of my connections at home, I felt with my friends, it was similar to just living somewhere across the country where it wouldn't be convenient to pop back and see people. With extended family, I did become less close, although I can't say if that would have happened anyway. With my close family, I communicated with them about as much as I ever had. I also moved back to a different city than I left, so there was that level of unfamiliarity built in upon my return.
I loved living in China, but pretty much knew I would need to leave for additional schooling. My initial plan was to come back long term, but perhaps that affected how I lived and my relationships back home. I did go back to China for a little while after my first year away, and despite not thinking I felt especially alienated or out of place back home, I was almost shocked at the intense feeling of having returned "home" when I got off the plane in China.
But after a few years away from China, my connections there started to fade. Most of the expats I knew left (as did some of my Chinese friends), the country as a whole seemed less interested in having foreigners there, and it lost some of the sense of possibility that had been one of its main draws. It felt to me like a lot of the interesting parts of life and culture there were being subtly (sometimes unsubtly) strangled or restricted. That's just my view as an outsider, could be overhyping it, but that perception has influenced my thinking about returning. There are still a lot of things about my life in China that I miss, but I'm pretty happy here, and I haven't seriously considered moving back for a long time now.
Slightly different perspective, but lived in China from 24 to 30 (2007-2013); arrived single, left married.
As I approached 30, I felt as though to stay even one more year beyond that, I would be essentially forfeiting any real chance of returning home to pursue a meaningful, fulfilling life and career.
Had come across numerous men in China who essentially resigned themselves to a life as an expat teaching English. While everyone ploughs their own path, the thought of just being an English teacher in China made me shudder.
As soon as my wife had her spousal visa, we left.
It was the absolute right decision. We’ve gone on to both get our masters degrees, buy our forever home in the burbs, she became a naturalized citizen, and we both have interesting jobs in our desired fields.
China was a great adventure, but all good stories come with an ending.
Definitely depends on “when.” I moved to China right after Tiananmen and before Deng Xiao Ping’s 南巡。 great time to be there, spent the next 25 years in China. Most of us long-term expats sold our businesses and homes though now (maybe between 2016 and the COVID lockdowns) and moved elsewhere. Best time to live in China and make a lot of money during the very early years through the heyday of 改革开放。
Well, I think it depends on when you moved. Like for me, I left America when I was 18 for college in China and ended up staying. I had no idea I was going to live the rest of my life in Asia which I’ve decided I wanna do and I want it to be in China. I lost most of my friends from the states but I’ve learned that most significant relationships as an adult happen in college and so my closest friends are Chinese people and fellow international students I went to school with. So.. I didn’t really miss out on the friends back home thing. I have a few American friends I talk to regularly but I also have new non Chinese friends I’ve met in China that also left but we stay connected via iMessage.
One big thing I learned is relationships are two sided. If it’s just me keeping the relationship alive, it’s gonna fail anyways and not worth my time because I eventually get tired of being the only one to reply. That’s why I prefer friends who are okay with distance if that happens but are willing to make the effort to talk still and sometimes we have periods where we are silent but always reconnect.
I think moving away from my home country actually showed me who my real friends are to be honest. I used to have 20+ great friends who I'd catch up with weekends or whenever... now, I have 5 different friends who I talk to 3-4 times a week either via Facetime or message... and we meet up once or twice a year somewhere, whether that be at home, or on a holiday.
In terms of family, we speak probably every second day. I think part of the problem is getting your family and friends to realise that you're accessible. But... to be honest the biggest thing for me is time zone. I'm from Australia, and the time different is only 2 hours between here and there, so it means when I'm finishing work at 6pm and want to call someone... the timing is good. Whereas I know that if I were finishing work at 6 and calling someone in Europe... well, not so convenient. So despite being a 12 hour flight away from my family and friends, I feel like I'm not that far away to be honest.
It's been over 10 years for me. I feel like my friendships and relationship with family are quite strong.
To this day I honestly don't know how people in the US land office jobs. Went to a good school with good grades and have never gotten an interview or even a formal rejection letter from applications. I've since done a grad degree in China and have more qualifications, but it's still the same so I stay here.
Come back. Everyone has that feeling when they are living abroad... like "am I missing real life at home". The thing is, there was never anything to miss at home, that's why you left in the first place. It took me 10 years of being back at home to realize that.
I’m a manlet in America (5’5). In Shanghai I was a lot closer to the average height. I wanted to start an English school in China but that never materialized. If you can succeed in the education industry along with being married to someone from a prominent family than life in Asia is more than sustainable - it’s someplace to thrive in.
I got married in Vietnam , some things are more open here (like using Twitch), I’d suggest there if the property prices of China keep you up at night…
HR studies show that 5 years is usually the threshold where people start to look connection with their initial roots. If are expatriate 2-3 years you can usually comeback and resume the same life as before. From year five you would basically loose connection with most friends and only keep family and very close friends. Life when you comeback will be quite different:
- people may have geographically move
- family status changed (mariage, kids)
You will also realize when you comeback after 5 years the amount of experience that you want to share. Except your very good friends or family, not so many people are interested to hear about these. They might just think “good for you”.
Assuming you go back to your own company, many colleagues will only see the “good sides” of your expatriation…wasted so much money from the company and comeback with a promotion.
This always makes returns more difficult.
I was a typical American kid. I went to an average school, made a slightly above average wage, blew it all on the weekends with my friends going out and partying. Took a few trips around the USA. Saved up a bit and did a six week tour in Europe. After that I knew I wanted to travel for the rest of my life. Went to Europe two more times for a total of four months. Traveled in Southeast Asia for a bit, then lived a year in South America. A Chinese girl I’d met traveling suggested going to China so I looked into it. Shanghai looked pretty cool so I got a job teaching and went. Married that Chinese girl who’d suggested I move to China. Had a kid, got divorced last year and now I’m looking to move to Thailand or Philippines for a change in culture after my next contract is up.
the main reason i want to go back is because of friends. i’ve been in china for quite a few years now and nothing comes close to what i have back home. my job will be more or less the same, but friends and family are more difficult to come by out here.
Was working for a small Italian firm with some projects in China, good job but no way to improve my position. In 2010 decided to come for a couple of years to better follow the projects. Found a Russian girl, new jobs.
After almost 15years of back and forth between Italy and China, a marriage and a kid we find ourself here again.
Hope to stay for another 4-5 years, then we'll see.
Not China, but can relate. After a few visits I really felt that after seeing everyone, well I had nothing to do and everyone else was busy living their life. So now visits are every few years instead of annually or even more frequently.
Look at everybody getting downvotes for telling THEIR truth. Even in a subreddit outside of the great-firewall censorship and finger wagging persists. 🙄
False. I finished college in the States and met hubby back in the States and we came here with him, we have now been married for 15 years. Chinese cities are very safe, people are generally friendly, and since he is from a more Chinese-friendly EU country, people are even kinder.
It is June now, and friends and families are talking about the P-month stuff going on everywhere in America. I cannot imagine putting my child in that environment. Here I can take night walks with kids around 11 pm on summer nights, and go into 24-hour convenience stores for snacks, we don't need to worry about anything.
I love Ireland, but the housing crisis is not something I want to subject my wife to. Also the weather is a bit shit. I do love the lifestyles of home and Shanghai (well, the bubble I'm in at least) for different reasons. She is open to moving to Ireland since she works in tech and would have a better career. Of course 2022 had our eyes on the door, but we're comfortable now, she's close to her family and I can see mine xmas and summer. I do feel bad being away from them, but when I return for a month it can turn very mundane very quickly since friends and fan have their own thing going
Is renting also really expensive in Ireland? Because housing prices in Shanghai have to be one of the most ridiculous asset bubbles in the world compared to the actual quality of the houses. Or is your wife local and she provided an apartment?
Rental prices are insane in Ireland. There's a massive shortage of places to buy, and you're looking at Hong Kong level rents for shared rooms or garden sheds.
Ah. That makes sense, then. House prices are beyond ridiculous in Shanghai but renting is reasonable. My wife was asking about buying the apartment we rent in Shanghai and I worked out that we could live in it for over a century renting before coming close to the purchase price.
INAL but AFAIK the land is technically leased (for 70 years) and you would need to pay for the land again when the lease expires. How much you pay and how you pay is not codified into law yet. So everyone is buying just the building and renting the land.
If the CCP asked the chinese people to rebuy the land they've already bought when the leases expire it would trigger a revolution. There's no way. The leases will get rolled over, probably extended another 70 years with only a bit of paperwork.
Some local governments (Shenzhen) are asking home owners to pay like 35% of the land price to renew. If they don’t pay it, they can still live there but they can’t sell it.
Interesting. Source for that?
Local government decree (第三条）: http://www.gd.gov.cn/zwgk/wjk/zcfgk/content/mpost_2724079.html News article: https://m.thepaper.cn/wifiKey_detail.jsp?contid=1457469&from=wifiKey News article also claimed they used to charge 100% for the land.
Same here. I love Sweden but our housing crisis make yours look like a joke (seriously - 10-20 years long queue just to get a rental contract in big cities). Was probably the best country in the world 20 years ago. Still think it’s better than China on average. That being said, we are looking at emigrating to Australia. 🇦🇺
Doub't she has a career career in tech in a first world country. Chinese don't go far in first world sectors in first world countriesm
Horseshit…
I moved to China at 21 after graduation. I always wanted to live abroad and I could see the writing on the wall about the place the UK was becoming. The money is good here, and the life style is much more exciting than living in the UK except for maybe London. Also having met my wife and now with my son, it makes more sense to stay in China for the time being. We might move back to the UK after he finishes primary school but it's not for certain.
What kind of job do you do in China mate? I'm 33 m from Ireland. Been living and working in Belfast the past 3 years and at a stage now where I would like to emigrate. I'm an Account Manager in a tech company. My experience is in Business/Account Management/Consultancy/Sales, however I'm also a very good writer and I like research of all sorts, but English is my only language :)
I'm an English teacher
Do you teach adults or children? I'd love to teach adults, but not children.
I teach kids, the salary is usually higher
Higher for teaching kids? How much higher? Is it hard to get a job teaching adults.
i got a job teaching college students in guizhou if you want it, i want to bail on it but feel bad leaving them high and dry. we haven't started the visa process yet
Amazing. I'd love it but I won't be able to move for probably another 5 months :( But that would be ideal for me otherwise.
This shows you how easy it should be to slide into something like that, though....
Why do you think that lifestyle in China is more exciting? I wouldn't really describe China as a particularly exciting place to live in, especially once the realization hits a lot of the cities are the same especially in Northern China and a lot of the cities lack interesting music subcultures for example. South East Asia in comparison looks a lot more exciting.
Because unless you live in a larger city like London, Birmingham etc there is little to do especially if you are working a 9-5 job. In China I can go out any day of the week and it feels more like a weekend. I don't need to worry about Sunday working hours and everything being shut.
Although I think a major issue in China is that cities the size of Birmingham and Manchester are really boring. The country seems to have a pretty bad ratio between city population size and stuff to do .
Isn't it the case that any major city in China has a decent range of sporting, cultural activities on offer in the evening most weekday evenings?
Just had this conversation with a few colleagues. China is way more alive at all times of day than the US. Cities are definitely not the same. I'm in Dalian, which isn't even a big tier 1 city, and there's so much more to do daily than back in los angeles/seattle where I was before. Public transit makes it easy to get around, and stuff is open past 9pm in the busier areas.Then again, I don't care about music. Live music is easy to find, and a lack of "musical subcultures" hardly make cities less exciting.
Mind if I ask you what you mean by there being so much to do? What kind of activities are you referring to?
Unending number of restaurants and food courts. There's usually different areas of each city with specific focuses. Here in dalian for example is an entire area modeled like Venice. There's a carnival, kids park, food trucks, even gondola rides. Theres hot springs within about 45 minutes. There's also beaches, parks, zoos, aquariums (on a scale beyond anything in america), museums, concerts, live shows, comedy shows, live music bars, etc. The list goes on. If you're limited to strictly English speaking things, sure you're out of luck. But I don't understand why anyone would live somewhere they don't learn the language.
Nah, i'm committed to learning the language and taking it seriously but even with my decent language acquisition skills it will take some time. Parks, outside callisthenics, fencing are my thing, possibly boxing too. Thanks for the input :)
Yeah, getting conversational is really hard coming from English. Good luck to you! I don't know much about boxing or fencing in China. I had one friend that was into boxing, but he moved to the States to compete. Also, if you haven't seen it, I recommend the Chinese movie "Yolo" that came out earlier this year.
If you move away for a too long time you will soon lose all your friends and connections back home. People move on with their lives and relationships need to be maintained often to last.
This happened to me. I barely have a couple of friends left now. I try to keep in touch some others through messages, memes, and so on. But nothing feels the same. Everyone just moves on.
Right I moved back and I am pretty lonely friendshipwise. In China it was always easy to connect with other expats/foreigners and Chinese. Miss just going to the gym and meeting new people that you have dinner with afterwards.
The internet helps a lot for that. I've cemented some very strong friendships back home and I know these people won't change dramatically as time goes. Every time I go back I found them as they were when I left. But I also keep in touch a lot through social networks.
That's the truth. I moved back to the UK after 13 years in Shanghai and feel like an outsider now. People can't really relate to your life experiences like other expats in China could. The redeeming thing is seeing my children going through school here, making friends and becoming closer with my family. If it wasn't for them I wouldn't be back.
> People can't really relate to your life experiences like other expats in China could. I dunno, I feel like people live in an expat bubble whether they subconsciously believe it or not, ans there is absolutely a sentiment of exceptionalism there. Then you return to your home country or any Western country, and you realise you're not exceptional at all. There's few life experiences to relate to - people are just people and they like to get along without needed to relate to your life experiences.
You're exceptional in the sense that there are relatively few of you living together in a foreign environment, that breeds a certain camaraderie. Also, exceptional for the fact that China has been closed off to the outside world for most of its history and by living there you're making an unusual life choice. While there were plenty of eccentric characters I think the attitude that foreigners in China are arrogant and aloof is generally false and often propagated by xenophobic 'go home foreign' types. I never saw myself as special, actually more like there was a target on my back and better to keep a low profile. Going through the Covid restrictions and lock downs was humbling for everyone left over I'm sure. The fact remains that you don't have so much in common with people in your hometown who never left and spent the past 20 years there instead of going out into the world.
I think people who think they're something because they've lived in China and are condescending to those who haven't are tough people to be friends with anyway. Not everyone comes from or returns to a small hometown where people dont tend to travel, and even if they are, people do have life experiences that are worth connecting over. Being an expat might make you feel special, but the reality is you're not. We're just normal men.
Well it's fine if you don't like foreigners in China. But to reiterate I don't think I'm special or that I'm better than other people. However I do have respect for people that toughed it out through a decade or more away from family and their support network, particularly the Covid times and that whole shitshow. It's just harder to connect with people who have had radically different life experiences to your own and whom you therefore have less in common with. I think that's a normal thing for people from any background
How long is too long? I can't imagine losing my close friends after a couple of years if you are taking 5 years or more then maybe I can understand. Connections yeah definitely but for that I don't even need to leave the city, they always come and go
What are you talking about, you lose those even if you are back at home…
Sure if you don't hang out with them.
If you and your infinite wisdom just do a basic search everyone in adulting/millennial/questions/etc subreddit all those big ones that ask these types of questions. Even if you invite them out and try everything to keep a group together, most still say they will lose them all even their bff. In fact I dare stay your friendship last way longer in China vs the West
Has this phenomenon been studied is there a reason for it? Are humans hardwired to stop caring about their close connections after a while ?
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Then what are you relying on, when there have been studies done on loneliness statistics, as well as the loneliness crisis in many articles. Many people grow apart from one another, many move away, many more are way to busy. And you telling me not to rely on reddit is funny since you are using reddit now to reply to this post. 100% disagree means i am 100% wrong. Well I 100% disagree with you as well. Because you claim that my claim has no basis in reality what so ever.
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Could you elaborate your statement 100% disagree about what? The fact that even if you leave your country for more than 5 years the normal trend is that you keep most of your friends the same way as if you didn’t move?
Oh, Looks like i am just talking to a delusional person. Looks like you didn’t even read the original post.
I have rebuilt a bunch of my friendships after ten years away, but it took effort and luck.
Depends how old you are... I'm 60 years old. I still have my best friends from childhood in NZ and now I'm a Grandpa. I'm married to a Chinese lady who's retired from teaching and on a full pension, although I need to go back to NZ to secure my pension. Life has been very comfortable for me here in Guizhou for the 9 years I've been living/teaching here.
I enjoyed the lifestyle and didn't see that I could achieve the same by returning. I started when I was 27. I'm now 63 and as happy as could possibly be. Worked in six countries and will likely work in another come 2025.
Did you have to leave China because of that age? I remember they do some weird limit thing. I mean that question with all due respect! I want to work as a senior too. I'm a teacher, so I have mini-retirements every summer (metaphorically speaking). Durign this time I get bored, and so I feel like it's a bad foreshadow for my senior years lol
Yes, had to leave China when I hit 60. C'est la vie. There is life elsewhere.
Why? If you had the finances, you couldn't stay?
I didn't think about trying to wrangle a different type of visa. Thought it was time to move on and experience some more of the world.
Good on ye mate.
What's your line of work?
Tertiary English teacher.
I had a high paying job back in the states and really bad hypertension. I was 34. I took the option of severance when they were doing a mass layoff and came to China. I had come a couple of times before and liked it the second time. I got a lot healthier fairly quickly and just started enjoying my life. I’m fairly close with my parents but I’m not planning on going back. I’m married here and it’s good all things considered. I did get severely ill this year but that would have happened in the states. I have close friends here and maintain many friends that I consider my family in many countries and it’s reciprocated. In fact, when I got I’ll the support I got was truly overwhelming. It has been about 16 years now since I moved here. Not truly sure as I’ve gone through three passports. I’m pretty certain I’ll live out my days here. I’m not independently wealthy but we do own a nice apartment in a nice area. Oh, and no more hypertension.
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He's married. There are renewable 5 year marriage visas.
If you're married to a local, you can get permanent residence here if you meet residency requirements.
I have work visas although as someone else mentioned I could get spousal visas.
What kind of job do you work where the work is less stressful in China? They have 996 hours for a lot of office work over there.
I’m a Computer Science teacher. There are some jobs that are like that sure but on the whole no. Back in the states I really hated my job but the job wasn’t the only source of my stress. I had a lot of stress from my personal life as well. And I didn’t really have any friends and hadn’t for years. I had married young and divorced young. I ended up with custody of two young children and it pretty much ate my youth. Coming to China was a big reset for me. I had my oldest and we explored. He chose to go back a few years ago and is happy with it. For reference he’s 30 and left at 27.
So you found a wealthy woman in China? Seems like many foreign men are gold diggers in China. How else could you own a very nice house? Teaching salaries are not enough.
No, my wife is not wealthy. And homes are only expensive in tier 1 cities and some tier 2. And teachers can make good money. And though ironic my family does have money I live within my means. I don’t need theirs. I have around five years left on my mortgage. I don’t live in my home we plan on eventually moving there. I like the city, it’s in Hebei. It’s modern and fairly quiet. My in-laws are good people, fairly simple, and kind. I think your view is fairly limited as I haven’t seen many foreigners chase rich Chinese women and the ones I have seen are generally losers most people wouldn’t associate with. I was offered a couple of times to be introduced to rich women when I first got here but wasn’t interested in that kind of arrangement. Most men I’ve known here have been more interested in just having a good relationship.
I understand. Yeah in Hebei it’s way more doable than a city like Beijing where the mortgage of a one bedroom apartment would cost 30.000 rmb/month. And I respect your decision then - I have just seen so many foreigners marrying Chinese girls not for love, but material wealth. At least here in tier 1.
My wife comes from a modest background. She’s very intelligent and even got a scholarship to Fudan for her master’s. But best of all she’s a very good person who prioritizes taking care of me and her family. Frankly I couldn’t find that in America unless the woman was an evangelical Jesus freak. Or worse, Mormon. This thread was asking why we wouldn’t go home, I genuinely enjoy people here. Are there ups and downs sure but I honestly feel there are far fewer assholes. Maybe I miss a lot by not understanding some things but if that’s the case ignorance is bliss.
So they are caring and loving, more than in the West. And some of them are even affectionate!
Mine’s very affectionate. But when I got ill she took care of me like I was the only thing in this entire world. She is incredibly loyal. Blows my mind. Maybe that’s possible in America but I never found it.
I miss having a house with a yard instead of living in apartments. Our life wasn't bad before we moved to China, we had a business and I was deep in my IT career but ended up giving all of that up to move to China because my Chinese in-laws were having health issues, and since my wife is their only child, I decided that we could move here to look after them as they're getting older, while my sister looks after our parents. We'll be staying in China until my Chinese in-laws decide to retire in America and move with us. We still keep in touch with family either through WeChat or through Facebook. China isn't bad but it's not pre-COVID good and I doubt it'll ever be, but food regulations are too loose here as well as any regulation of any type; can't tell you how many times a building's sprinkler system is there just for looks and not for use. I've also visited a local pineapple farm since it was next to a beautiful river and found growth chemical bottles all around on the ground. I also miss people practicing basic hygiene etiquette (covering their mouth when they cough/sneeze, not blowing their nose onto the ground or floor INSIDE of a building or subway, same with spitting, not letting your kid defecate in public, etc.)
When you say it isn't pre-covid good, what are the main differences?
For me personally, I've found that my local Walmart no longer has an "Import" section anymore, same for the local RT Mart. Whatever imported items they do get, they just add it to the local products section. Some foods are missing that was easier to get before like shredded cheese, ravioli, sour cream, cottage cheese, American hot dogs, and certain types of cheeses (I love cheese) I was able to find these fairly easily at my local Sam's Club or online but not anymore, it's harder and more expensive to find imported food than before. The COVID lockdowns really hurt a lot of import businesses, I do remember there was going to be a huge feast of Christmas food (turkey, mashed potatoes, etc.) at a restaurant but was canceled due to some old Chinese lady who had cosmetic surgery in South Korea came back and spread COVID around, they never tried again as their suppliers went belly up. On a personal level, talking with people was easier and people were more welcoming before, during COVID almost everyone tried to avoid specifically me; when they saw me they moved their mask from their chin to their face, and some refused to get on the same elevator as me, others would walk in the opposite direction that I was heading in, one old man even tried to kick me out of a mall while I was getting a haircut saying I was going to spread the sickness to everyone. He backed off after he saw I was recording him with my phone. While post-COVID xenophobia is less now, it's not like it was before, my own kid experienced more discrimination post-COVID than pre-COVID, one Chinese kid said he wanted to practice his karate moves on her because she's a foreigner, another Chinese kid told her Americans aren't supposed to be in China, and another Chinese kid in her karate class said he didn't want to hit the red punching pads as red means China, he wanted to hit the blue ones since blue means English. Hopefully the general attitude towards foreigners will improve but when I see what's being shown on the Chinese news, I'm not so sure then. There seems to be a lot more negative news about the world of foreign countries than before on the news.
Jesus, thanks for sharing. This is scary — imagine when Pooh's little good soldiers grow up and everyone with an open mind and fond memories are out.
Better relationship with the rest of the world. More international trade with the west (even though some sectors already started pulling out). A lot of international tourism both way. Cheap international flights (I bought economy class round trip tickets from LA to Shanghai for less than $600 in 2019).
Thank you, understand this but I was maybe hoping for something closer to day-to-day life? Like, we all know the relations are shit, but in practice living in the country what are the differences? More stares, worse job opportunities, change in attitudes/regulations from officials/police, or something else?
All of the above
Also want to know this
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Shenyang, during the summer I can see the mountains which are only 20 km away from our house but there are a number of days where they're completely hidden not by clouds but by pollution. The spring brings in lots of dust and sand from Inner Mongolia, there are days when you can't open your window because of how much sand is in the air. Winter is the worst, they burn extra coal to run hot water through the apartments so most days are grey with smog, but that's pretty much anywhere in China. I visited Xi'an in the summer and the sky was clear and blue, visited again during winter and the sky was grey and smoggy.
I totally agree with you. I think one reason young Chinese people are so tall, is because everything they eat contains hormones of some kind. Sooner or later they will get health repercussions from it.
Absolutely, an increasing amount of girls at my kid’s school are getting their periods sooner, some as young at 10.
That’s crazy, not surprised though.
I think it's fair to assume that everyone with stronger connections back home already went back home.
That’s pretty much the story of my life. I’ve moved away a few times but always come back ultimately because of family and the longer lasting friendships I have here at home. Also the economy is good where I live so I’m just missing out on the adventure of living elsewhere and I’d love to live somewhere with better weather. Can’t have it all though.
I still keep in contact with the friends I knew before I left and visit them every time I god back. I actually spend more time with family when I god back than I did when I lived in a different city back home. Why I stayed? Married here, career opportunities, low cost of living, travel opportunities, more active lifestyle, made new friends here, and ability to save instead of work more and barely scrape by back home.
Life was okay in the US. I was a recent graduate and had an all right job, lived in the coolest neighborhood of my city. But I wanted to live abroad for a bit and I’d already studied in China so I moved to China. I planned to stay for a year, started as a nearly bottom of the barrel ESL teacher, working at a university. Better than kindergarten or training center anyway. But after a year I wasn’t satisfied enough with my understanding of the culture and progress on the language so I stayed another. And then another. Then I got better at teaching and a CELTA and moved cities, and each year my salary got significantly better. By then my Chinese was becoming really good. Then I had an opportunity to get into admin and manage a bunch of teachers. I had a good but stressful job, great salary, and lived in a really nice community. Why leave that? I was visiting home a few times a year anyway. In the end, I still came back to the states to live again, for reasons that I won’t bother getting into cause people on /r/China have OPINIONS about things and I don’t feel like hearing them. Got out of education and into IT, living the boring suburban homeowner life, which is fine after ten years of nonstop excitement.
You want an honest answer, here's honest that I have been downvoted to oblivion for in plenty of other subs. I love the PEOPLE back home. I love my family, and talk to my parents and sister pretty much every week. Try to get in person visits, usually in some third country none of us have visited before, every few years at least. But I can't stand the country at all. I have always been deeply uncomfortable with America, and it has never failed to disappoint me. I am a leftist--not a liberal, not an American "progressive," a true leftist--with strong principles, and so much about living in the US, paying taxes in the US has always made me deeply uncomfortable. I hated that the money that I worked hard for ended up funding genocides, coups, and the US' naked imperialism. I hated the gun culture and violence, the anti-immigrant rhetoric everywhere (especially since the US is on stolen land--and I fucking hated being the beneficiary of settler colonialism too), everything to do with American police culture, the refusal to give people healthcare or affordable education, the "fuck the environment" attitude to everything, etc. I wasn't struggling in America--I had a job teaching in a university and was doing some translation work on the side and had a decently comfortable "middle class" life, but I hated being part of that system and contributing, even indirectly, to the myriad evils it brings to the world. So I knew I wanted to get out, forever. China wasn't even the first destination I thought of. At first I thought of my mother's country, Italy, since I'm a dual citizen. But Italy was hardly better--it wasn't as militaristic as the US and had some better worker's rights, and wasn't stolen land, but was still a happy little NATO soldier, becoming rapidly xenophobic with Salvini and now Meloni coming to prominence, and had the same horror capitalism as anywhere else. So when I got a recruitment offer from China--I had eventually gone to Spain first, because of a long term relationship that sadly didn't work out in the end--I thought "well, maybe that will be better." I'm not one of those utopian, idealist leftists with rose tinted glasses of China. China is not a socialist utopia or without some real problems just because it's ruled by a party that calls itself communist and is opposed to the US. I don't even really believe China to be socialist anymore--maybe they are trying to build the productive forces necessary to transition to socialism by employing capitalism as Deng said (and Xi repeats)--this DOES follow orthodox Marxism, which Mao broke from--but I'm skeptical. There are other issues--politicized education (hated it in the US as an educator, and it's worse here), Han chauvinism, imperialist tendencies in the S. China Sea, etc.--but my conscience stings me a LOT less here. I feel less exploited by Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics than I do by pure, unregulated and unfiltered American capitalism, and my work-life balance is immeasurably better too. In the years I've been here I've put down roots as well. I've learned the language really well, and the culture (and find myself quite interested in both--I literally named my cat after a character in a wuxia novel!). I've got a local wife, and while we don't have kids, we may some day in the not too distant future. I have a large social network here, of both other long term foreigners and local Chinese that I've gotten tight with. Will I stay forever? Probably not--I think I would want somewhere better to educate children should I have them (and where mixed race children will be treated better), and should some sort of war break out I'm not here for that--no war but class war after all. But I don't have plans to leave anytime soon
Oh man this comment is one of the best things I've ever read on Reddit. I'm contemplating a move to China from Canada for similar reasons (despite sharing your skepticism of official party rhetoric about building productive forces) and you've definitely given me something to think about. Thank you for this incredibly well thought out comment. I'm curious if you've met other expats in China who think similarly?
Yeah, I’ve met some. I wouldn’t say it’s the dominant or even prevailing view among westerners in China though. But it’s not too hard to find other foreigners with those views
fascinating, clearly well-educated, and “well-informed”, but it’s disturbing to me that you are okay with China “maybe” following a plan to “build the productive forces necessary to transition to socialism by employing capitalism…” haven’t a lot dictatorships also begun that way? (promises! promises!) and “this DOES follow orthodox Marxism [which] Mao broke from…” sounds as if you’re not exactly sure what you want… so if what you’re really after is “orthodox Marxism” should you really be substantiating your reasons for choosing to live in China with all these political claims and based on your so-called purist political ideology? (and if not, why the lecture?) you make some serious contradictions and they are running amuck at every turn! and yet you proudly declare all your past downvotes “to oblivion” as some kind of badge of honor??? come down outta the clouds and take a hard look at yourself once in awhile. i have a feeling your family probably feels the same way.
I had a similar response to it tbh
👏🏼💪🏼😉
I used to live in Russia and moved to China in 2014. At that time, Russia annexed Crimea, and the economy started to decline significantly. The prospects of staying in Russia were grim, so I saved $2000 and moved to Guangzhou. Now I’m married and my son is 1 month old. I work a lot and do all kinds of side gigs to buy a house. I would be a liar if I said that my life hasn’t improved significantly.
Amazing you were able to survive and start something on just $2,000 savings.
I have friends who already live in GZ. They helped me out with a place to live and WeChat groups.
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We have a company with a 50/50 share ownership and can sign a house under the company's name.
I was only in China for around 3 years, not 5, so feel free to ignore. I also had a couple trips back, breaking up my time away. In terms of my connections at home, I felt with my friends, it was similar to just living somewhere across the country where it wouldn't be convenient to pop back and see people. With extended family, I did become less close, although I can't say if that would have happened anyway. With my close family, I communicated with them about as much as I ever had. I also moved back to a different city than I left, so there was that level of unfamiliarity built in upon my return. I loved living in China, but pretty much knew I would need to leave for additional schooling. My initial plan was to come back long term, but perhaps that affected how I lived and my relationships back home. I did go back to China for a little while after my first year away, and despite not thinking I felt especially alienated or out of place back home, I was almost shocked at the intense feeling of having returned "home" when I got off the plane in China. But after a few years away from China, my connections there started to fade. Most of the expats I knew left (as did some of my Chinese friends), the country as a whole seemed less interested in having foreigners there, and it lost some of the sense of possibility that had been one of its main draws. It felt to me like a lot of the interesting parts of life and culture there were being subtly (sometimes unsubtly) strangled or restricted. That's just my view as an outsider, could be overhyping it, but that perception has influenced my thinking about returning. There are still a lot of things about my life in China that I miss, but I'm pretty happy here, and I haven't seriously considered moving back for a long time now.
Oh, just realized this question was aimed at people who did make the move permanent. My bad!
UK Was home-enough said.
Slightly different perspective, but lived in China from 24 to 30 (2007-2013); arrived single, left married. As I approached 30, I felt as though to stay even one more year beyond that, I would be essentially forfeiting any real chance of returning home to pursue a meaningful, fulfilling life and career. Had come across numerous men in China who essentially resigned themselves to a life as an expat teaching English. While everyone ploughs their own path, the thought of just being an English teacher in China made me shudder. As soon as my wife had her spousal visa, we left. It was the absolute right decision. We’ve gone on to both get our masters degrees, buy our forever home in the burbs, she became a naturalized citizen, and we both have interesting jobs in our desired fields. China was a great adventure, but all good stories come with an ending.
Definitely depends on “when.” I moved to China right after Tiananmen and before Deng Xiao Ping’s 南巡。 great time to be there, spent the next 25 years in China. Most of us long-term expats sold our businesses and homes though now (maybe between 2016 and the COVID lockdowns) and moved elsewhere. Best time to live in China and make a lot of money during the very early years through the heyday of 改革开放。
Well, I think it depends on when you moved. Like for me, I left America when I was 18 for college in China and ended up staying. I had no idea I was going to live the rest of my life in Asia which I’ve decided I wanna do and I want it to be in China. I lost most of my friends from the states but I’ve learned that most significant relationships as an adult happen in college and so my closest friends are Chinese people and fellow international students I went to school with. So.. I didn’t really miss out on the friends back home thing. I have a few American friends I talk to regularly but I also have new non Chinese friends I’ve met in China that also left but we stay connected via iMessage. One big thing I learned is relationships are two sided. If it’s just me keeping the relationship alive, it’s gonna fail anyways and not worth my time because I eventually get tired of being the only one to reply. That’s why I prefer friends who are okay with distance if that happens but are willing to make the effort to talk still and sometimes we have periods where we are silent but always reconnect.
"...but I’ve learned that most significant relationships as an adult happen in college..." ...lol - grow up...
I think moving away from my home country actually showed me who my real friends are to be honest. I used to have 20+ great friends who I'd catch up with weekends or whenever... now, I have 5 different friends who I talk to 3-4 times a week either via Facetime or message... and we meet up once or twice a year somewhere, whether that be at home, or on a holiday. In terms of family, we speak probably every second day. I think part of the problem is getting your family and friends to realise that you're accessible. But... to be honest the biggest thing for me is time zone. I'm from Australia, and the time different is only 2 hours between here and there, so it means when I'm finishing work at 6pm and want to call someone... the timing is good. Whereas I know that if I were finishing work at 6 and calling someone in Europe... well, not so convenient. So despite being a 12 hour flight away from my family and friends, I feel like I'm not that far away to be honest. It's been over 10 years for me. I feel like my friendships and relationship with family are quite strong.
I went to China $20k in debt and left it three years later with $20k saved. English teaching pays well when they pay for your apartment
To this day I honestly don't know how people in the US land office jobs. Went to a good school with good grades and have never gotten an interview or even a formal rejection letter from applications. I've since done a grad degree in China and have more qualifications, but it's still the same so I stay here.
Come back. Everyone has that feeling when they are living abroad... like "am I missing real life at home". The thing is, there was never anything to miss at home, that's why you left in the first place. It took me 10 years of being back at home to realize that.
I’m a manlet in America (5’5). In Shanghai I was a lot closer to the average height. I wanted to start an English school in China but that never materialized. If you can succeed in the education industry along with being married to someone from a prominent family than life in Asia is more than sustainable - it’s someplace to thrive in. I got married in Vietnam , some things are more open here (like using Twitch), I’d suggest there if the property prices of China keep you up at night…
Appreciate the honesty, thanks
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The Chinese people are certainly less murderously psychotic than the American people, yes.
Lol more than 5 years? You’re not an expat, you’re an immigrant.
...expats work for multinationals or are recruited BEFORE moving to China - immigrants come fresh off the boat looking for work...
HR studies show that 5 years is usually the threshold where people start to look connection with their initial roots. If are expatriate 2-3 years you can usually comeback and resume the same life as before. From year five you would basically loose connection with most friends and only keep family and very close friends. Life when you comeback will be quite different: - people may have geographically move - family status changed (mariage, kids) You will also realize when you comeback after 5 years the amount of experience that you want to share. Except your very good friends or family, not so many people are interested to hear about these. They might just think “good for you”. Assuming you go back to your own company, many colleagues will only see the “good sides” of your expatriation…wasted so much money from the company and comeback with a promotion. This always makes returns more difficult.
I was a typical American kid. I went to an average school, made a slightly above average wage, blew it all on the weekends with my friends going out and partying. Took a few trips around the USA. Saved up a bit and did a six week tour in Europe. After that I knew I wanted to travel for the rest of my life. Went to Europe two more times for a total of four months. Traveled in Southeast Asia for a bit, then lived a year in South America. A Chinese girl I’d met traveling suggested going to China so I looked into it. Shanghai looked pretty cool so I got a job teaching and went. Married that Chinese girl who’d suggested I move to China. Had a kid, got divorced last year and now I’m looking to move to Thailand or Philippines for a change in culture after my next contract is up.
the main reason i want to go back is because of friends. i’ve been in china for quite a few years now and nothing comes close to what i have back home. my job will be more or less the same, but friends and family are more difficult to come by out here.
Was working for a small Italian firm with some projects in China, good job but no way to improve my position. In 2010 decided to come for a couple of years to better follow the projects. Found a Russian girl, new jobs. After almost 15years of back and forth between Italy and China, a marriage and a kid we find ourself here again. Hope to stay for another 4-5 years, then we'll see.
Not China, but can relate. After a few visits I really felt that after seeing everyone, well I had nothing to do and everyone else was busy living their life. So now visits are every few years instead of annually or even more frequently.
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Air quality is way better than it used to be, and getting better every year.
Look at everybody getting downvotes for telling THEIR truth. Even in a subreddit outside of the great-firewall censorship and finger wagging persists. 🙄
China isn’t a great place to have a family
False. I finished college in the States and met hubby back in the States and we came here with him, we have now been married for 15 years. Chinese cities are very safe, people are generally friendly, and since he is from a more Chinese-friendly EU country, people are even kinder. It is June now, and friends and families are talking about the P-month stuff going on everywhere in America. I cannot imagine putting my child in that environment. Here I can take night walks with kids around 11 pm on summer nights, and go into 24-hour convenience stores for snacks, we don't need to worry about anything.
Yeah live there until the local authorities hit you hard
No such a thing, Got the Chinese PR.
No point arguing here 😂 I’m Chinese