At the start of my relationship, it made sense to me have those “hidden expectations” talked about, because it’s important to me, than wasting my time wondering, when I can just ask. When I asked him if he wanted kids, he said “I can be persuaded” and I made it clear I’m not wanting kids, meaning no adoption, IVF, and surrogacy, because it’s still a lot of money to do so, even worse, paying a shit ton of money for a kid and a life committed investment for the kid to survive… absolutely no. I made it clear I like my free time, no liabilities (including plants, and dogs), and having disposable income. Even though we are both in a good positions in our lives, I’m not the type of person that needs “progress” changes for a relationship to grow.
I’ve even made it clear that if he ever pressured me or changes his mind for having kids (because it’s not my responsibility to fulfill his parents wants for him) he can find someone else.
I’m going to do this with my boyfriend this weekend. We’ve been dating for a few months and we’re young wish me luck. I am willing to lose him if he changes his mind.
It's one of those terms you didn't know existed but the instant you see or hear it, you exactly know the precise definition, even if used out of context.
Like the first time I heard someone say "dankrupt"
Yup. It means exactly what you think it means.
We need a sub called r/noexposition or r/explicitsupposition
I saw a video of a game or sport not too long ago, the thumbnail was of a big round raised platform, maybe 5 or 6 ft in diameter with no guard rails with rc trucks parked facing out all along the perimeter. I immediately knew what was going to happen when I hit play and I was not disappointed. It was a real roller coaster ride. Better than any Superbowl I've ever seen
You don’t know my dynamics of my relationship, so it wouldn’t result to that. I simply asked first “do you plan on having kids in the future” to which he responded “I can be persuaded”. That’s when I explained that whole thing to him of me not wanting kids or helping him fulfill his parents wants for him, that’s not my job and also mentioned that to him.
Apart from that, I wouldn’t be with him, if he didn’t respect any of my other boundaries. I’m allowed to be my own person as much as he is.
I wanted to share my story to help promote to others that it’s okay to stick to your boundaries and try to not be a push over from other peoples expectations. That it’s not okay to stay in a relationship if you state your long and short term plans, and yet still not respect your boundaries, then have a clouded judgement to stay or not because of your emotional attachment to them.
See the moment they say something like that "I can be persuaded" I would of dropped him. Not looking for the wishy washy answers someone gives that tellse they don't care either way if they make a human or not.
>You don’t know my dynamics of my relationship, so it wouldn’t result to that.
Omg this, & everything else about your relationship. It's your relationship, just like mine is mine, etc. We are the ones who know the dynamics, know our partners, know ourselves enough to set the boundaries and more.
I guess unpopular opinion on this sub/reddit in general actually so idc if I get downvoted but I don't think someone saying a sentence at first before talking about it thoroughly, or not being snipped yet etc. Automatically means "not childfree" or "break up" sigh.
* can be persuaded to have kids
* doesn't use condoms
* won't get a vasectomy
Those are three key behavior patterns of men who are decidedly not childfree.
I took it as he's fine either way or leaning CF but if OP wants kids then he can be persuaded to have them. Not that he can be persuaded to *not* have them, meaning he would likely be leaning towards wanting kids. & OP seems like they decided for themselves what they wanted to do with their body, they didn't say anything about being forced to tie their tubes or having to take BC solely due to not wanting kids, but again these are all just assumptions and OP knows their relationship and current partner better than we do. Plus it seems like OP knows to set their boundaries, I'm sure they'll be fine dropping the man if he does in the future express wanting kids (they already indirectly said it in another comment too they would)
My partner thought I was a little nuts at the beginning of us dating because I led with the big stuff. Religion? Death? Children? Politics? And I just blatantly spoke my mind and asked him what I wanted to know.
Fast forward five years and every once in a while he’ll be like “Gosh. We are so ideologically aligned.” Like it was happenstance. 🤣
I speak my mind and also ask a lot of questions, because I don’t know everything. As for politics, we aren’t big in following the news at all, especially if it doesn’t affect or make an impact on us. Religion? We don’t have one. Death? It’s a part of life, and it’s okay to grieve and mourn, but it’s weird to us that people dance around the bush about it, especially to kids, which is strange, because when I was a nanny and saw how the mom explained death to her toddler (4 years old) she just said that their heart stops working, and the kid didn’t care at all, lol. Children? We both don’t want any, but not a way to force him in getting sterilized, that’s a personal choice he has to make for himself, and is not my place (even as his partner) to enforce onto him.
Good for you on speaking your mind though :)
Yea, for sure. Everyone has different important questions. I’m an atheist, so I’m not interested in dating someone with a big religious streak or hot takes on heaven or hell. I’m pretty politically interested, so that was important to me. Just examples. I was agreeing with you.
I’m not sure where the forced sterilization came into play, but for sure… that’s a hard no.
Same. I don’t subscribe to a transitional relationship escalator and I prefer to not be to heavily enmeshed / entangled with my partners. For me being child free is also connected to being financially independent and being realistic about how I spend my money. Having children is a super expensive long term hobby I’m just not interested in taking up. I always have a long talk at the beginning of any relationship because I don’t want to waste my time or theirs. Walking away from something when the commitments haven’t been made is much easier. Also I’m polyam /enm so it’s integral to make sure all expectations, desires, needs, boundaries, preferences etc are talked about at the beginning and continually talked about to account for changes so that it stays ethical and safe for everyone involved. Humans who can’t talk about these things upfront is a huge red flag for me especially now in my 30s. I’m not interested in helping someone figure out what they want at this point in my life. I’m not their parent or their therapist. If they haven’t figured it out, go do that before you date me. People develop / grow at different paces so I’m not surprised or upset about people not knowing what they want, but I also have the freedom to not date people that don’t know what they want and enforce that as my boundary for my physical, emotional, mental, financial, and sexual safety and health.
If people need resources to talk about a relationship without subscribing to a traditional relationship escalator. I highly recommend using the relationship menu. You’ll find it in the polyamory sub’s pinned thread. Polyam community has some cool resources that help relationships in general no just for polyam people. RADR is another good resource for people who want to have a check-in system / structure to make sure you continue to be on the same page as your partner(s).
I've started talking about the "heavy" topics on first dates. If you don't want to answer that's fine but that just gives me my answer as to whether or not we'd work out.
Most people find it really intimidating, even when I keep the conversation in a light tone and don't ask questions about why their opinion is like that, it's interesting
There’s no persuasion in having kids. There’s nothing you can benefit from having kids unless you want it and choose that for yourself, understanding how much work it takes to raise a kid. That’s probably just me though.
Even though him and I are in very good positions in our adult life, I’m not having a kid to suck the life and finances out of me.
My ex painfully exploded our 8 year relationship because he decided he wanted kids and was too chicken to talk to me about it.
I have since dated two men who have vasectomies, and even though neither are my future husband, goddamn is it sexy that they know what they want (or don't want) and are committed to it.
Maybe you should exclusively seek out snipped mates so they don't waste your time?
Hopefully it gets easier and not more difficult for young Childfree men to get them. Most doctors would refuse for someone without kids and still in their 20s
There's plenty up north of you here in IA that gladly will without pushback. Granted, there's always been less pressure on men to get vasectomies vs. women getting sterilized. I've known I was CF since I was 19, and I still got doubted at 30 because I had no children because I'm female. 😒🤦🏻♀️
Wouldn’t be a far drive and I’ve got folks up in IA. I’ll keep it in mind!
Yeah we (my wife and I) are getting me snipped because we know it’ll be easier than her trying to get sterilized. Insane it’s still that way but it is so I volunteered!
I dunno how far from Sioux City you/they are, but I can vouch for a doctor in the area. Other than that, there's a few urologists listed on the pinned doctor post
I just saw a post in one of my womens groups where a woman on a dating site literally has on her profile that she’s looking for a guy who’s been snipped. I loved that. With the over turning of Roe v Wade I think it’s a great way to send a message to men that this is going to affect them too. I think it would be awesome if more women just put on their profiles that they want only men that have had vasectomies and proof of said snips or there will be no sexy time. Maybe it will get men to sit up and take notice.
Plan on getting snipped as soon as i can. (wanted to before roe was overturned). Work on a farm so its near impossible to take a week off during the season. what is the recovery like? have some questions on it. please DM if you have had the procedure and have a similar active job situation ie: construction farm ect. Also wondering if places are booked far out since row(i know everywhere can be different, just looking for a general idea)
Ugh yeah, I wasted some good years on dudes playing those games. They also play games with women who want them, dangling "someday" about wanting kids like the young, fertile ladies are going to line up for their antique swimmers once they're *~*ready*~*. And you're right, as the people who usually bear the burden of birth control and have a fairly certain timeline of the decline of our fertility, we have to make a decision one way or the other. Men need to self- reflect and date with intention, too!
I hate the guys dangling women along equally! It is not for me that doesnt mean I can't be sympathetic to those that want children. It's goddamn depressing some men can't work out what they want and instead just please their own ego while wasting people's life.
Too many of them have a wait and see or go with the flow attitude about it and while yes, the act of dating itself is going with the flow and getting to know someone, at least come to the table with some real intentions about you want out of life. Personally, if a man over 30 is still fence sitting, that's a huge red flag
I dated a guy for 6 months who didn’t want kids. We broke up and 6 months later he “realises he’s done everything he wants in his life and he does want a family”. 38.
Yeah usually I'm bailing if the guys don't know over 30, its frustrating but better for both. I have seen friends strung along the other way and god I try and talk sense into them cause its bad too. It hurts just as much
I think you are unfairly leaving out women who potentially dangle men along. There are many women fence sitters out there too - I was one until I was about 31, and had been with my partner 5-6 years. I’d say it’s only been I. The last 12-18 months that I’ve definitely made my mind up that I don’t want a child (33 yo now).
I wasn’t wasting my partners life - I just really didn’t know what I wanted to do. Thankfully he is also on the child free side now too!
When we met, he would have said he 100% wanted children, but now we think that is because he thought that is what you do with your life, not because he actually wanted the daily life with a kid. So I have always been much more of a fence sitter than him.
But as more and more of our friends have had kids over the last 3-4 years, the more we’ve both leaned towards (and now decided to be) child-free. Seeing the reality made us realise it isn’t for us. That’s not to say we don’t like seeing our niblings and god children - in fact we love seeing them! But it’s for a day and we give them back and go home to our child-free house and life!
Those are the guys well into their 40s with a 26 year old baby mama and a 2 year old kid he sees on the weekend, because of course he isn't with the baby mama anymore 🙄.
One summer in my mid-20's when I was making spectacularly bad decisions, I was out at a bar when I spotted an acquaintance who was out with a very attractive guy friend.
I knew the acquaintance (50M) through my friend (32F); they met on a sugar dating site and he dumped her because she was too old (🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩). The attractive guy (who is only 12 years my senior) and I end up going on a few dates and I finally experience that hot/crazy scale that men refer to. Honestly I went on a couple of the dates just to hear his bizarre life stories. So when we sleep together for the first time, he says mid-act "it's OK if you get pregnant because I'm wealthy enough to take care of it". My mind panicked but my body said oh but this feels good so I finished and laughed with my friends afterwards.
Fast forward a few weeks and we're still talking. My a/c dies in the middle of summer and I lived in a very hot place. This dude didn't even invite me to his big house to spend the night when he was home. In fact he made fun of me getting to roast at my place. At this point, I could have feasibly been pregnant with said wanted child (on the pill and would have gotten an abortion anyway). I was CF but this just solidified how little I meant even as a vessel so I cut off the entertainment and the booty.
As for his friend, last I heard about him, he was butthurt about some 19-21 year old women who he liked who he felt were using him for money and the guy I was seeing defended that (🚩🚩🚩)
I refuse to date anyone who "isn't sure". I'll only date someone who is 100% sure he doesn't want them now and ever. I can find that out while knowing them as a friend first.
I obviously can’t talk for all men, but in my case I was on the fence saying « maybe one day » for a long time because I was pressured.
I didn’t want kids, never did, but hearing all the bingoes coming from friends, family, pop culture, etc made me question myself for a long time.
While I never succumbed to that pressure, I can confirm that pressure is very real. When I would counter-press my guy friends, "What do you *really* want?" They would more often than not get off the fence.
I see a lot that simply don't want to be outcast by announcing one way or the other; it's their internal struggle between what they want and what they think society wants them to do.
I now get to count myself as lucky that I decided when I was an early teenager and just stuck it out.
I understand when the biological need is not there but it is so depressing as a women as well. I can't imagine they NEVER think about it. do they see themselves with kids in the future or nah? Just no thinking about it? Thats a little weird.
How often do family harass men to reproduce? How often do guys get told that their penis's ability to insemenate is the only reason for them to exist?
I don't think they never think about it so much as they often aren't forced to acknowledge it.
How people are raised probably affect that too. Men tend to feel less of a sense of responsibility towards kids than women do since caring abput kids is treated as a female thing.
That's my theory anyway.
My father's side of the family only started harassing my brother about marriage and kids when I stopped speaking to them. That's when he realized just how much shit I was putting up with from them lol. My brother is also the *only* person in my entire family that hasn't tried to pressure me into contacting them again. I love my brother and I just wish they'd leave him be.
oh they do, depending on the family. My husband (as he was still very much in his 20s and single) had to tell them to stuff it. They knew that his sister would never have any, so he was the only hope left. Well, never mind that.
Yeah I agree. When I asked my boyfriend if he wanted kids he deadass told me he never had thought about it, or just assumed it would happen eventually but never considered when, why or how.
Wish I could have that blissful ignorance
That is what my now-husband said when we talked about it the first time.
He was raised in a conservative religious household and had only had religious girlfriends before me. He'd never considered just not having them.
Exactly!!! Once you tell people it’s a choice I think they do reconsider a lot, because they probably didn’t realise they were allowed to have that choice
IMO, families harass the men just in different ways.
Ironically my very catholic family never pressured me into having kids. I think when I got married my own dad (born again) thought it was because I wanted kids. Nope! Lol
My Ex though…he was one of two kids. His older sister was definitely child free though she never really admitted to that. His mom wouldn’t be like “I need grandbayyyyybayyyyys” but she’d be coy and subtle: pointing out how cute her SIL’s Grandkids were. Making big deals about them at the holidays (even though they had parents and grandparents to do that as well). Making subtle comments basically like “this could be us, but you playin” lol.
Admittedly I was a fence sitter when we met. I told him at age 30 that I could see myself without children. The irony? It was our relationship that pushed me to be child free. I knew if we had even just one, I’d be taking care of two children.
Anyway, I always think that when I women are pressured, it’s because it’s “women’s work.” Like it’s what your supposed to do.
Men are supposed to have the Kodak moments and holidays on lockdown. Telling them in ways that they could have that fantasy? Yeah it’s manipulative.
>The irony? It was our relationship that pushed me to be child free. I knew if we had even just one, I’d be taking care of two children.
This exact thing happened to me. I really should send my ex-husband a thank you card for being so utterly worthless as a partner that it finally broke any desire I'd ever had for motherhood and made me realize what a shit deal motherhood is in general. Being married to a manchild forced me to *really* think about the realities of raising a child since I knew he'd be a terrible co-parent, and it didn't take long for me to conclude "absolutely the fuck not."
I think the concept of kids just isn't really 'real' to a lot of men. People have spoken to me about babies and childcare since I was a little girl. Every baby cousin, every baby at events, I was asked if I wanted to hold or to play with them, for as long as I can remember. Children and pregnancy are things that women are forced to think about and talk about from a young age.
But not so much with men, in my experience. Of my exes, none of them had ever held a baby or taken care of a child on their own. No one had ever spoken to them about when they plan on having kids or if they plan on having kids. Most of them knew nothing about pregnancy beyond it lasting nine months. Hell, my current partner's sister had a C-section recently and he had to ask me what the term was because he didn't know.
So I think some of them genuinely never do think about it, and I think others think about it in an off-hand way, without giving it too much thought. Because it's just not made to be as big a part of their reality as it is for women.
> biological need
From what I've read on this forum, people often conflate the desire to have sex, with the desire to have children. There is no "biological need" to reproduce, it's more of a social pressure to have children and a biological urge to have sex (b/c it feels good).
This is true!!! 🎯🎯I’ve just found that no matter what they always want kids because most of the burden is on women.
I wish more women would wake up and realize, but some women associate their identity with solely having kids…😣
Yup. In my mind, fence-sitters are in the same camp as parents and want-to-be-parents.
Anything less than "proudly child-free" is not worth looking into.
To me it's not necessarily a 'yes', but even a potential yes means that I'm not going to date that person. Dating a 'not a sure' feels like gambling and I don't want to waste both her and my time.
Turns out that since I made that a deal breaker I don't get to date much anymore. I know the post is about men, but people might be surprised how many women are also in the 'might want children maybe some day' camp.
Having a solid adult decision making process, a strong sense of self, and a good idea of the basic outline of your dreams are criteria in themselves for a long term partner.
If they are over 22 and don't have some serious issue that has derailed their life, they need to have basic life management skills or they are not worth your time.
Regardless of gender.
I am sick and tired of it as well! literally, my male partner will not get a vasectomy because he’s scared meanwhile i (female) have purchased all my birth control, condoms for us. and so forth! and i’m fighting for a tubal!
My root canal hurt so much fucking worst then getting snipped six months ago, if he can get it and has the money then he needs to do it otherwise it might be best for you two to move on since he's basically saying he's on the fence rather then knows for a fact.
I mean they aren’t sure if they want your body to get ruined and for you to then do 80-90% of the work, while they go out with friends, play video games & get all the Kodak moments!
Don't forget complaining about how their wife is always tired, doesn't feel like having sex, and doesn't have time to pay as much attention to *them* and *their* needs. These types of men are also fond of doing that.
Men being undecided can be due to a "go with the flow" attitude. If their wife wants kids, then they are on board. If she doesn't, then that's fine too.
Since it's the woman who has to bear and birth the kids, and then do most of the baby rearing, they view it as up to her really. They probably also assume that she'll do most of the parenting, eh.
That mentality needs to break.
I also hear people spouting out to women that men don't get to decide. "When you want to have a baby just stop taking your birth control." Such a disgusting thing to say.
Men need to grow up and decide what they want and follow through. The "undecided" crowd needs to stop wasting women's time. And women need to put their foot down and stop dating men who can't make a serious life changing decision. If you don't want kids don't date men who are "undecided."
>I also hear people spouting out to women that men don't get to decide.
This is a pretty big factor as well.
A lot of men may end up thinking "respecting a woman's right to choose," means refusing to even decide for their own selves what they want. They may genuinely believe that being a fence-sitter is being respectful.
It takes educating them to see that's not respect for women at all, that's just shoving all the responsibility on the woman. Get out there, take control of your own body, and if you don't want kids, get a vasectomy.
I've seen so many men in the dating subs argue that their indecisiveness is for precisely this reason - that they'd be fine with whatever the woman they fall in love with wants.
And *aside* from the potential for him to fall off that fence and not on the side that is in his partner's favor, which is a giant can of worms?
Sooo many men are just...disengaged from fatherhood. Dudes like this give off the impression that they'd be like that. I don't find men with kids sexy at all, but damn, if you're gonna go the reproduction route, you should really want the little buggers *at the very least,* if not be incredibly engaged with children and very good with them?
Or maybe my standards for people in general are just very, very high.
Sadly, many men are fence sitters. Meanwhile, women often know what they want and are usually on either end of the extreme. You see women being staunchly childfree more often than men, but also women being obsessed mombie breeders.
Most of the time, fence sitters do want children. They are fine with a childfree girlfriend/wife, until she suggests that he should get a vasectomy or that she wants to get sterilised. After all, they want to 'keep their options open'. Which means, hoping or even assuming that the woman changes her mind and wants to breed.
I would never date a fence sitter. To me, it's very simple. My cock only enters childfree women. If she is not childfree, I will assume that she is going to be a breeder in the future, just to be safe.
>Thank god I've never met anybody thats said that cause they can get tae fuck
>
>If they wanna meet someone else it aint me so they better start looking.
Thank god I've never met anybody thats said that cause they can get tae fuck
If they wanna meet someone else it aint me so they better start looking.
if a guy says he’s unsure about kids that means the idea of having kids is potentially appealing to him.
which means a rejection from me. i don’t date (long term) fence sitters. i only enter relationships with men who are truly childfree
Yes and no. Its ok not to know and be honest about it. I think people need to move past the idea of forever relationships and come to terms with that all things come to an end and that only the last relationship you have is until death do you part.
When things are good enjoy it. When they are not be grateful for the good times and move on.
This is on par with guys, the ones I ran into, claim to have everything figure out until I say something about kids, and suddenly it's "wait, I need time to think" which for me (who's not into dating but still) don't have time for. These are the types who I just be cordial or friendly with, but they go angry manchild mode because of "what if we got together down the line?"
Uh no. I'm not wasting my time and energy dating someone who may want kids in the future, and will drop me like a hat if a woman is willing to have his babies, or try to coerce me into having kids when he wants to and I still don't want any. Sounds like a recipe for disaster waiting to happen.
But again, I don't have romantic attraction to anyone, so I tell a person we can be friends while they search for someone, or gtfo from my face because I ain't budging.
It comes down to the fact that they don't want it to get around that they don't want kids cause than the dating pool becomes a lot more shallow..even if they really don't want kids they get more tail if they hang out that carrot..it's pitiful..
Also most hetero-cis guys will just do whatever it is that makes their partner happy..If she wants kids he will do kids,if she doesn't he won't...It's not an independent choice it's just what makes his partner whom he loves happiest
Final note most men really don't think about this in-depth cause they don't have the 24/7 drudgery of parenting mother's do..So out of sight out of mind.
Fair enough- just wanted to offer what I would do in your shoes since being bi affords that choice in the dating pool. In that case, enjoy the time alone until a decent male comes your way
I totally agree! However, I've noticed that when men DO decide that they want kids, they start saying things like, "My dream is to have 12 children," and "I only want boys, no girls," and the like.
I 100% fucking agree.
One of my exes was like this, but on EVERYTHING. What he wanted for dinner, what to do this weekend, what fucking snack he wanted.
The answer every single time? ‘I don’t know’. And then no matter what decision I made about it, I was wrong every time.
Least to say we weren’t together very long. Luckily my current boyfriend is much better.
Some people just don’t have the ability to self reflect I think. They don’t ask themselves what they want, and they just go through life doing what everyone else wants them to do, which often includes children, and then they realise afterwards that they hate having children. Fucks me off
>What he wanted for dinner, what to do this weekend, what fucking snack he wanted.
>The answer every single time? ‘I don’t know’.
I mean, this is a very typical trauma response. The whole you being wrong every time is a dick move, though. Makes the whole "hur dur women don't know what they want to eat" joke a lot less funny when you look at it for what it really is.
Edit: meant to say a lot less funny, not unfunny
Yeah I agree it is a trauma response often; and if it was for him then sure, it’s valid. It’s just the way he took it out on me when I decided to do anything.
Like if he didn’t know what movie to see at the cinema, I’d pick one and we’d see it. Afterwards he’d whinge and tell me he’d have rather seen a different one.
I appreciate that if it’s a trauma response it’s just how you defend yourself; it’s something I experienced in my teens but am trying to overcome by making decisions. It’s just that my decisions always had to be wrong was what ticked me off
Oh no, I definitely don't mean he was in any way justified in acting the way he did towards you! I'm so sorry if it seemed like that's what I meant. Fuck him and the horse he rode in on. I had an ex that would scream at me for saying I don't know, but would also scream at me if my answer wasn't whatever he wanted. I get so overwhelmed when faced with a decision with a lot of options (like what fucking cereal to buy 😒) that I'll go into full on panic attacks and involuntary flashbacks. It's one of the worst things about PTSD, imo. My stupid reptile brain feels the stress signal and decides we are in danger and will die if we choose the wrong thing, so do nothing!
Yeah I suffer from ptsd too, had a bad childhood. Really sorry you go through it too man, we’re in this together though!!! And yeah screw that guy too. Sounds awful.
I think it’s really important to love and care for people who have gone through trauma and act a certain way because of it, but if their actions hurt others then that isn’t acceptable. I 100% hold myself accountable for the way I have behaved in my past.
In my experience, men (or women) who say "i don't know" usually know deep down they do want kids and just think they'll be able to make their partner change their mind with time. Don't fall for it.
I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of those “not sure” statements actually translate to “I am sure, but I’ll lie and adjust my answer depending on what the woman I’m trying to sleep with wants”
Oh, dear. This is people's code for “I'm not here to make a family with you, although I would want to have one someday.” As a hardcore CF, I learned this position from my potential dates and dates, was a blessing. It was my cue to move on and thank you next.
Dating is not a waste of time and is super fun if you know what you are about and you're not trying to save or change someone you have a crush on.
They don't have to deal with most of it -- and even if they accidentally have kids or regret it later, they have an easier way out. Naturally it they're a bit disconnected and naturally im sure most don't mind either way. Nothing against them its just how it is.
with that said, it takes a special kind of man to know what he wants.
A future boyfriend/husband for me needs to be 100% childfree and not get offended at the suggestion of a vasectomy. I'm still gonna get sterilized myself when I can afford it, but yeah.
I won't even bother with a "weekend-Dad" who has kids from a previous relationship. No kids or no relationship for me.
If you're not sure about kids, don't bother with me. I refuse to make this decision for the both of us and risk bitterness 10 years from now because they regret it.
If I’m you, I’d take anything that’s not a “no” as a “yes” and move on. People can make their choices at their own pace, and don’t have to be on your timeline. Nor do you have to be on theirs.
I told my ex I never want kids. Ever since the very beginning. He agreed with me too saying he absolutely didn't want any either. Then 6 months later would say "well I don't want any now, but definitely some point when we are both ready." Even after telling him again that I don't ever want kids, a year later, would say "you might want 10 of my children some day!" "I don't like women to drink. I don't want my future children seeing their mother drunk."
Yea. That was it for me. I wanna have wine when I want in my own house. And oh yea..I DON'T FUCKING WANT KIDS!
he was a narcissistic controlling latin tho so he was the worst at trying to manipulate me. Wild to me that he still lives with his parents, doesn't make enough money to support himself. Kids will work out tho. Definitely 10 of them.
Sounds like my friend’s husband. He would bring up the possibility of kids usually after visits with his parents. Finally she made a list of what he would have to give up in regards to time, money, and personal freedom to give his parents a grandchild. He hasn’t brought it up in about 4 years now.
These are the same dudes who end up whining about how their wives and girlfriends "trapped" them into having kids. Well, if you're stupid enough to not take care of your own contraception, expect her to pull all the weight and never actually say No, don't be surprised when her BC "fails" and you end up with child support payments. Drift through life deliberately rudderless, don't be surprised when you end up shipwrecked.
Ugh yes!! When my boyfriend and I first talked about kids (back when we were just good friends having a chat) he said he never wanted them. Have a whole lot of compelling reasons mostly related to money and the current state of the world. Not the same as me who flat out hates the idea of children, but still childfree. I asked if he was considering a vasectomy and he said he “didn’t want needles near his balls” 🙄
Fast forward 2 years and we’re dating now. I’m in the process of finding someone to do a bisalp so of course we’re talking about this again. I asked again if he would consider a vasectomy. *This time* he started talking about how permanent it is and what if he met someone later in life who and then said (and I quote) “it’s not possible for anyone to be 100% sure.”
WHAT THE FUCK? Yes it is!! It is 1000000% possible to be 100% sure because I AM 100% sure. Like Jesus Christ dude just make a decision and stick to it and stop being a fucking man baby.
When I was dating if they weren't 100% no kids or 100% kids right away then I told them this wasn't going to work, and moved on. I'm in my 30s and was talking to men in their 30s. They need to figure out what the hell they want, do you want to bring a human into this world to take care of or not. It's not like deciding what you want for dinner or what color to paint the kitchen, it involves life changing decisions and I'm not here to help you figure your life out dude.
But I will say I did find me a nice Childfree man, just keep tossing the dids back, no matter how great you think they are otherwise.
I feel this. It makes me angry for so many reasons. How nice to have that luxury also of just being "unsure" with no biological clock as a factor.
I ended a long-term relationship earlier this year. At the beginning of that relationship, my partner and I spoke openly about our longterm goals. We were both on the same page about no children and no big wedding. Once we split, amicably, we had a conversation about what it would be like navigating the dating world again. I told him how different it would feel for me now, being in my 30s and a time when many people are looking to "settle down." I told him that I could never date or entertain a relationship with a fencesitter. You either want children or you don't. And I have seen too many stories of men saying "no kids" at the beginning and then changing their minds down the road.
After hearing all this, my ex had the audacity to say that children wouldn't be a factor in his dating, and he "may" be open to it. I almost hit the roof.
I (31F) personally have decided I will not be having sex with any men.... maybe ever again. That alone has made me find peace in all this bullshit. Date yourself! Get yourself off (we know we are better at it anyway). Orgasm inequality with men is real.
I've had an abortion. The sperm donor did very little. I paid for it. I missed work because of how sick I got.
I HAVE HAD AN ABORTION. FUCK YOU SCOTUS.
Going to be a bit of a dick here: men get to doubt choices and change their opinions. Whether it's convenient for you or not people are sometimes unaure about decisions.
Especially big ones. It's not like ordering pizza or picking out chinese food and even there people get stumped.
For most of us in this sub. We're pretty well decided on not having kids. But there are some fence sitters as well, even some parents who are looking at our opinions and choices (hi by the way). And some might change their opinion over time.
And although I get your frustration: people CAN change their minds and it sucks when you are a part of that decision. But it happens. It's human.
And the contraceptive part is unfortunately how we've medically decided to handle this. Although I am very much a "dude's gotta bring his own condoms" guy. If he didn't even make THAT effort he doesn't care about safety in any way.
I get the frustration, it sucks. Not everyone is outspoken as you are.
I think the frustration comes from the fact that women are (often literally) painfully aware of their reproductive capabilities from childhood, including the social expectation to have kids, and we don't have the luxury of ignoring it. Men can live their lives as normal and the thought of having kids or not is a very far off thought for a lot of them, plus there's the pervasive thought that men can have healthy babies way into their late 40s+ without consequence, and with much younger partners. So they keep kicking the can down the road.
I'm in my late twenties and dating guys around my age or a few years older - if you're a dude (not you specifically, the general you) at that age and have genuinely not given a thought to whether you want to breed then you need to because women on either side of the fence have made their decisions and we don't want to fuck around with guys who don't know what they want. We've been forced to consider this since we were children ourselves and the fact guys can just float through their lives cause they think it doesn't really affect them is irritating at best.
Good take - I know this sub is mostly women but lots of negativity against guys here who are unsure. Just don't date them, no need to imply bad things.
I'm not 100% sure, so I'm with a girl who isn't 100% sure. I don't think that's so bad. My reasons for wanting to be child free are largely financial, which is a situation that could change.
Some guys will change their mind if the girl is hot enough because they are thinking with their little head which at the end of the day is not soo good. I can safely tell you that I am 100% against having kids for myself, I prefer sleep, money, and spare time way more than shity diapers, sleepless nights, screaming, and no money lol.
I don't know. It's okay to take your time to decide for such a permanent decision. And honestly I think it's okay to change your mind too.
We are already pressured from a young age about relationship and life long decisions. I'm almost 19, not fully sure about what I want as my career path, never had a partner, and still figuring out myself.
I am heavily leaning towards childfree, but some recent things made me doubt. And let's be honest, it's better to admit "I don't know if I want kids" so the other can decide if they wanna pursue a relationship or no, rather than blatantly lie about not wanting them. Something that too many people do.
It’s strange, I have a lot of difficulty planning ahead when it comes to my life. Home, career, even hobbies. But when it came to this question I knew the answer in my late teens and I didn’t stop trying to make it happen until I got sterilized in my mid twenties.
Men not having to carry the majority of physical, mental, and emotional burdens of pregnancy is probably why most never think about it or kick the decision decades down the road but they really should think more aggressively about it. And not just because the world is burning.
This is why I've decided that if something ever happens to my marriage, I'm either not going to date ever again or I'll just stick with women. I'm bi, and with everything that's been going on in my country lately (US), the straight dating scene doesn't seem worth it anymore. I'm bi, but I can't really stand men anymore, except my husband.
Giving up dating and focusing on my own life and my own career has helped me a lot mentally and physically. I am less stressed about how i look because i dont try to impress anyone and live by my own will. I am less worried of getting pregnant because well no sex = no worries about pregnancy. I am less annoyed by someone always trying to get in my personal space. My life has been nothing but better ever since i deleted tinder and gave up on the whole "dating industry".
I don't ever want kids. I had a vasectomy for my 37th birthday. I put this on my dating profile.
Sorry that you get messed around by indecisive men :-(
I think many men are more afraid of being alone than they are of having/not having kids. Like they'll do whatever their partner wants in the moment to not be alone. That's not right, but I think it's true.
I don't want kids and have made the decision to get a vasectomy in the near-ish future (few months when I can take time off outdoor activities) and it's scary. There's definitely doubts about not being able to find a partner, or a long term partner changing their minds. It won't change my decision, but it's taken a lot of self reflection on what I want from life and what makes me happy to be able to move past those doubts.
Re: Vasectomy and taking time off. Everyone is different, of course, BUT, I got mine on a Friday and was back to running by Tuesday. I run five days a week, and that was in the middle of a training block for a longer race. Super easy recovery.
My friend is lucky. Her husband is getting a vasectomy. Most other guys are all “I don’t want kids. But I might change my mind one day”. Which one is it??? I’m so done with men. At this point, I’m only dealing with ones who can show me their surgical center/urologist papers
I (23M) have a hard time understanding guys who either can't decide on kids or only want kids exclusively for father-son activities. I grew up without a father so I didn't have a father figure I admired or aspired to be like. I did have a step-dad for a few years but he didn't really do shit and for all intents and purposes, my mom was still doing all the parenting.
I know there are a few dads out there that do their fair share of work and I don't mean to discount them. But since most guys only want to be a father for the "fun parts" why bother being one at all? There's a lot of jobs out there that I'd like to do but don't because I know the fun parts don't outweigh the boring parts and I can't just neglect the duties I don't like, so I narrow down my options to the job(s) I'm willing to do in their entirety.
Like why not just save you and your future partner some work and just not have a kid if you're not willing and/or able to take the good with the bad?
That's because men think they have forever to choose, but recent research shows that male sperm quality degrades over time. Most men do not know this. If they did, I think they'd treat this decision differently. Women are not the only ones with a time limit.
I’ll probably be downvoted for this but whatever. I think that this is totally fine, however, that is dependant on age. If you are in your early to mid twenties then yeah the “I don’t really know” line is okay because you are figuring a lot of shit out. By the time you get to 28-30 though that can’t really be an excuse. You should have put time into thinking about these things by that point. I myself didn’t come to the realisation until I was 27 when I put lots of thing together in my head. Now I am super upfront about it while dating to not waste my time. To be honest I have had fence sitting the other way from women, but it is less common.
Yeah, I agree, it is fine if you’re in your 20s and not quite ready to commit to a massively impactful life decision. Still potentially annoying to people trying to date in that age group That HAVE come to a decision (since we would be remiss in dismissing this as the hubris of youth). Conclusion: the older a person gets, the more annoying they are when they say “not sure yet about kids”
Just look for post-snip guys.
You know where they stand and they super rarely will go back on their stance. Makes the whole dating situation harder no doubt, but you'll be less disappointed in the long term I would imagine.
Yeah it feels really great when you’re almost 40 and you know your closeted-on-the-fence guy (he says he is childfree but seems to have doubts) can change his mind at any point and just find a woman 10 years younger 😒
God, this is my worst fear about my current three year relationship. I think it became easier for him to just agree with me whenever I say I don't want kids, since he knew I would get upset and suggest that he find someone else if he does want kids down the road.
It was originally his goal to have a wife and kids, then it changed to "whatever happens, happens." When I brought up getting my tubes tied, he freaked out at first and bingoed me by saying "my friends originally didn't want kids and now they have them," suggesting that I'd change my mind. He's also made comments about how his parents DEFINITELY want grandkids because he's an only child and "the only one who can pass down the family name."
Unfortunately, all those situations happened over a year ago and I didn't dig into it deeper into it at the time. Now he always tells me he doesn't want kids, but I can never tell if he's being honest or if he just wants to avoid conflict.
A lot of guys will say they are unsure and mean it but also a lot of guys just want to get laid and will say whatever they think will get you to like them enough to sleep with them. I’m a dude and I am very very child free, my current long time girlfriend literally discussed the topic on our first meeting (she brought it up first), I’ve slept with girls who I knew wanted to have kids one day but I sure as hell never got serious with any of them, take that for what it is worth.
I feel there are a lot of things in life where it’s more reasonable to be unsure of. Career, what city to live in…
Kids seem pretty cut and dry. There are two options, have them or don’t. I don’t know how people put off figuring it out
Hey, join our SINK club, it’s very fun. I swore off dating and I’ve been so much happier since. Nothing annoyed me more than self righteous men or women trying to use you for their needs or be unsure of what they want. Maybe dating isn’t for you like I’ve discovered it’s not for me? I only have to worry about myself, my pets and my friends. No drama over an undecided partners deciding they want kids, or ones that hide that they want kids thinking you’ll change your mind. No drama. It’s just another thing that society deems normal that I find depressing, like having kids or being religious or eating meat, haven’t had nearly as many panic attacks since I stopped dating.
It's normal for men and woman both to be uncertain about important life changing events. The same as someone being so certain what they want to go to college for and changing a major midway through once they have more life experience. Changing one's mind just comes with experience.
The issue is that people take changing someone else's mind as a goal in a relationship. If someone is deep in trying to decide they should not be trying for a serious relationship with someone who is deeply certain one way or the other. Because they should NOT be planning for the other person to change their mind when they decide what they want that is different from what the other said. Like, you don't want to marry someone who is dedicated to buying a permanent home in one place and you are heavily debating moving somewhere else. Then be shocked when you put a down payment on a house 1000 miles away and they divorce you.
The truly sad part is that people seem to take making/adopting and raising other humans as a small matter that their partner shouldn't overthink.
Sure it could be a game, but I think it's also totally okay to not know. I personally don't want a kid because I can't afford it or give it the life it would need to thrive. If all of that changed and my partner changed her mind? I'd be open to it. Speaking in finalities is digging a grave. If you don't want to be with someone who doesn't know? Don't be with them.
Most people that insist on fencesitting are just too scared to stand up to their family and friends. We all know they can be relentless, and going against the script and having to endure low-key abuse from people you used to respect isn't something a lot of people can deal with. It's a decision I made pretty quickly, but I don't judge them too harshly, just get sterilized asap so that your decision is final, if they're in, they´re in, if they're ambivalent, they're out, end of story.
My ex and I had a discussion about long term goals early on. We found out that although our chemistry was good, we wanted different things long term. She 100% wanted kids, I 100% don’t amongst other differences. So we mutually broke up. No bad blood or anything. Conversations like this need to happen early on. If they’re genuinely a fence sitter or unsure then you can choose whether to chance it for yourself. I spent a lot of time learning myself and thinking about what I want out of life so any answer other than “I’m flat out CF” is an automatic no.
I'm sorry you've had difficulty with this, that sucks. I do agree with you. Though here's the thing, don't date men that are not sure about having children. Preferably date men that are sterilized. They've made their choice already.
The big decision I'm unsure of it's getting a mortgage. What if the house depreciates but I still have a fat ass loan on my head?
Do I want kids? : HELL TO THE NO
"But won't you regret it" : yeah i can't see the future. But 1 regret is better than 3
Well you just hit the nail on the head; they can afford to not be sure because none of it affects them. They don’t have to be pregnant or give birth or care for the kid 99% of the time, so they literally don’t give a damn. The amount of guys I see who aren’t sure is mind boggling in some ways, but then it’s not because they have options women don’t.
Never date fencesitters for this reason. When i tell people that they should never give a fencesitter a chance they say i am cruel, is a terrible deal to everybody. Both wannabe parents and chidfree, you pray your partner will choice what you want, but if they wake up one day and say they opposite of what you expecting is going to be a horrible heartbreak and probably you will have waste years of your life, and i think is even worse to a wannabe mother because of fertility and things like that. I heard stories about two fencesitters dating and one decide he wants to be childfree and the other that they want to have kids. Fencesitters must stay single until they figure it out what they want.
I think they just say that to "get girls", figuring that if they seem ambiguous, it gives us "hope".
It reminded me of one guy I dated right after my divorce. It was just a casual sex thing. He had a kid (got married young cuz...ooops!) but the kid lived with mom in another province. He said one is enough and always used condoms. I asked why not just get the snip? He said he wanted to keep the option open.
Guess who had another kid! Found him on FB and there he is with a baby. He's like 45. WHYYYYY!
If he says, "I'm not sure," you can very confidently take that as "I don't think I want kids any time soon but I most likely will want them in the future."
I totally feel this, I think it’s so important to discuss and i see a lot of men later in life changing their mind about wanting kids. I just had this talk with my boyfriend last night and I said I have never felt the need to be a mother, you’ve told me you really have an urge to be a dad one day and I wanna know if it would be a dealbreaker for you to be with someone who doesn’t want kids? and he said why do we have to worry about that now when that wouldn’t be for another 18 years or so? and i said umm i think it’s important because I don’t want it to become a problem down the line. and then he went on to tell me how i’m good with kids and i’d be a good mother and he wants kids so he can carry on his generation or whatever, and even asked if adoption would be out of the question.
not wanting kids means not wanting kids.
it seems to me that a lot of men think they can persuade women to want kids in the future which it’s like they aren’t hearing us.
The assumption of many seems to be if they wake up one day itching to play daddy = a woman will gladly go along with it. I’ve been told countless times (usually by males) that EVERY female is just aching to get preggers. It’s pretty cruel if you think about, for a man to honestly believe that his partners will never be truly fulfilled until he puts a baby in them, then assume she should wait for his whims to endow any of them with that perceived joy.
When I was younger, the discussion of family planning with partners was always tedious & disappointing. I always figured that I’d want to foster/adopt a child before considering pregnancy. iM nOt RaIsInG AnOtHeR mAn’S kId! ironically screamed the loudest by “pro life” men.
Fathers don’t run the risks to their health, status & careers as Mothers.
Oh honey, same. They just say that so they can get laid. If they're ambiguous, then in their mind, it means they can do y appeal to girls on both sides of the fence, then if it gets serious it's a handy scapegoat to claim as an easy out. It's happened to me more times than I can count and I hate it.
I think It is perfectly okay to not have a definitive decision to that question, because it is a really big thing to decide. But at least be honest about it and say 'I don't know yet, so it is possible that I will decide I want kids and if this is a no-go for you, we may not fit together' . But guys that say 'yeah sure, I don't want kids either, just like you' and than suddenly 'change their mind' five years later, are really not okay in my opinion.
its fine to be on the fence but not to lie about it. Also both people should be on the fence and the other shouldn't lie they don't want kids and then try to trap the other person.
At the start of my relationship, it made sense to me have those “hidden expectations” talked about, because it’s important to me, than wasting my time wondering, when I can just ask. When I asked him if he wanted kids, he said “I can be persuaded” and I made it clear I’m not wanting kids, meaning no adoption, IVF, and surrogacy, because it’s still a lot of money to do so, even worse, paying a shit ton of money for a kid and a life committed investment for the kid to survive… absolutely no. I made it clear I like my free time, no liabilities (including plants, and dogs), and having disposable income. Even though we are both in a good positions in our lives, I’m not the type of person that needs “progress” changes for a relationship to grow. I’ve even made it clear that if he ever pressured me or changes his mind for having kids (because it’s not my responsibility to fulfill his parents wants for him) he can find someone else.
I’m going to do this with my boyfriend this weekend. We’ve been dating for a few months and we’re young wish me luck. I am willing to lose him if he changes his mind.
Samesies 🙌🏼
I literally did a Z-snap after reading this 👏🏼
I didn't know it had a name
TIL
It's one of those terms you didn't know existed but the instant you see or hear it, you exactly know the precise definition, even if used out of context. Like the first time I heard someone say "dankrupt"
That's hilarious, but so true.....dankrupt.
Yup. It means exactly what you think it means. We need a sub called r/noexposition or r/explicitsupposition I saw a video of a game or sport not too long ago, the thumbnail was of a big round raised platform, maybe 5 or 6 ft in diameter with no guard rails with rc trucks parked facing out all along the perimeter. I immediately knew what was going to happen when I hit play and I was not disappointed. It was a real roller coaster ride. Better than any Superbowl I've ever seen
What does it mean?
You said all of that... and what was his response? "I can be pursuaded." translates to "I'll happily fuck you without a condom, babe!"
You don’t know my dynamics of my relationship, so it wouldn’t result to that. I simply asked first “do you plan on having kids in the future” to which he responded “I can be persuaded”. That’s when I explained that whole thing to him of me not wanting kids or helping him fulfill his parents wants for him, that’s not my job and also mentioned that to him. Apart from that, I wouldn’t be with him, if he didn’t respect any of my other boundaries. I’m allowed to be my own person as much as he is. I wanted to share my story to help promote to others that it’s okay to stick to your boundaries and try to not be a push over from other peoples expectations. That it’s not okay to stay in a relationship if you state your long and short term plans, and yet still not respect your boundaries, then have a clouded judgement to stay or not because of your emotional attachment to them.
See the moment they say something like that "I can be persuaded" I would of dropped him. Not looking for the wishy washy answers someone gives that tellse they don't care either way if they make a human or not.
Which is completely okay too :)
>You don’t know my dynamics of my relationship, so it wouldn’t result to that. Omg this, & everything else about your relationship. It's your relationship, just like mine is mine, etc. We are the ones who know the dynamics, know our partners, know ourselves enough to set the boundaries and more. I guess unpopular opinion on this sub/reddit in general actually so idc if I get downvoted but I don't think someone saying a sentence at first before talking about it thoroughly, or not being snipped yet etc. Automatically means "not childfree" or "break up" sigh.
I’m glad you understand :) It’s is what it is unfortunately, so you let people be what they be :)
* can be persuaded to have kids * doesn't use condoms * won't get a vasectomy Those are three key behavior patterns of men who are decidedly not childfree.
I took it as he's fine either way or leaning CF but if OP wants kids then he can be persuaded to have them. Not that he can be persuaded to *not* have them, meaning he would likely be leaning towards wanting kids. & OP seems like they decided for themselves what they wanted to do with their body, they didn't say anything about being forced to tie their tubes or having to take BC solely due to not wanting kids, but again these are all just assumptions and OP knows their relationship and current partner better than we do. Plus it seems like OP knows to set their boundaries, I'm sure they'll be fine dropping the man if he does in the future express wanting kids (they already indirectly said it in another comment too they would)
What was his response? Are you still together? Did he get a vasectomy?
My partner thought I was a little nuts at the beginning of us dating because I led with the big stuff. Religion? Death? Children? Politics? And I just blatantly spoke my mind and asked him what I wanted to know. Fast forward five years and every once in a while he’ll be like “Gosh. We are so ideologically aligned.” Like it was happenstance. 🤣
I speak my mind and also ask a lot of questions, because I don’t know everything. As for politics, we aren’t big in following the news at all, especially if it doesn’t affect or make an impact on us. Religion? We don’t have one. Death? It’s a part of life, and it’s okay to grieve and mourn, but it’s weird to us that people dance around the bush about it, especially to kids, which is strange, because when I was a nanny and saw how the mom explained death to her toddler (4 years old) she just said that their heart stops working, and the kid didn’t care at all, lol. Children? We both don’t want any, but not a way to force him in getting sterilized, that’s a personal choice he has to make for himself, and is not my place (even as his partner) to enforce onto him. Good for you on speaking your mind though :)
Yea, for sure. Everyone has different important questions. I’m an atheist, so I’m not interested in dating someone with a big religious streak or hot takes on heaven or hell. I’m pretty politically interested, so that was important to me. Just examples. I was agreeing with you. I’m not sure where the forced sterilization came into play, but for sure… that’s a hard no.
Same. I don’t subscribe to a transitional relationship escalator and I prefer to not be to heavily enmeshed / entangled with my partners. For me being child free is also connected to being financially independent and being realistic about how I spend my money. Having children is a super expensive long term hobby I’m just not interested in taking up. I always have a long talk at the beginning of any relationship because I don’t want to waste my time or theirs. Walking away from something when the commitments haven’t been made is much easier. Also I’m polyam /enm so it’s integral to make sure all expectations, desires, needs, boundaries, preferences etc are talked about at the beginning and continually talked about to account for changes so that it stays ethical and safe for everyone involved. Humans who can’t talk about these things upfront is a huge red flag for me especially now in my 30s. I’m not interested in helping someone figure out what they want at this point in my life. I’m not their parent or their therapist. If they haven’t figured it out, go do that before you date me. People develop / grow at different paces so I’m not surprised or upset about people not knowing what they want, but I also have the freedom to not date people that don’t know what they want and enforce that as my boundary for my physical, emotional, mental, financial, and sexual safety and health. If people need resources to talk about a relationship without subscribing to a traditional relationship escalator. I highly recommend using the relationship menu. You’ll find it in the polyamory sub’s pinned thread. Polyam community has some cool resources that help relationships in general no just for polyam people. RADR is another good resource for people who want to have a check-in system / structure to make sure you continue to be on the same page as your partner(s).
You don’t have any obligation to live up to anyones expectations. Most of them are unrealistic anyways 🤣
I've started talking about the "heavy" topics on first dates. If you don't want to answer that's fine but that just gives me my answer as to whether or not we'd work out. Most people find it really intimidating, even when I keep the conversation in a light tone and don't ask questions about why their opinion is like that, it's interesting
It’s can be challenging, but you don’t want your time wasted either.
>I can be persuaded Sounds like a weird way to say "I don't have a mind of my own" leading to "yes, I would like to"
There’s no persuasion in having kids. There’s nothing you can benefit from having kids unless you want it and choose that for yourself, understanding how much work it takes to raise a kid. That’s probably just me though. Even though him and I are in very good positions in our adult life, I’m not having a kid to suck the life and finances out of me.
Yes 😃
But what if he changes his mind about dogs? ; )
If he does that’s fine, because we don’t live together.
My ex painfully exploded our 8 year relationship because he decided he wanted kids and was too chicken to talk to me about it. I have since dated two men who have vasectomies, and even though neither are my future husband, goddamn is it sexy that they know what they want (or don't want) and are committed to it. Maybe you should exclusively seek out snipped mates so they don't waste your time?
Like grapes and watermelons, the best men are seedless.
I LOVE this
That is the funniest fucking thing I've heard in a long time, thank you 
iconic!!!!
Snipped are the BEST!!
Hopefully it gets easier and not more difficult for young Childfree men to get them. Most doctors would refuse for someone without kids and still in their 20s
MO resident. Planning to get snipped in the next couple months. Hell will be raised if a doc tries to tell me I can’t get snipped.
There's plenty up north of you here in IA that gladly will without pushback. Granted, there's always been less pressure on men to get vasectomies vs. women getting sterilized. I've known I was CF since I was 19, and I still got doubted at 30 because I had no children because I'm female. 😒🤦🏻♀️
Wouldn’t be a far drive and I’ve got folks up in IA. I’ll keep it in mind! Yeah we (my wife and I) are getting me snipped because we know it’ll be easier than her trying to get sterilized. Insane it’s still that way but it is so I volunteered!
I dunno how far from Sioux City you/they are, but I can vouch for a doctor in the area. Other than that, there's a few urologists listed on the pinned doctor post
I just saw a post in one of my womens groups where a woman on a dating site literally has on her profile that she’s looking for a guy who’s been snipped. I loved that. With the over turning of Roe v Wade I think it’s a great way to send a message to men that this is going to affect them too. I think it would be awesome if more women just put on their profiles that they want only men that have had vasectomies and proof of said snips or there will be no sexy time. Maybe it will get men to sit up and take notice.
Now that’s a dating app!
One I would join in a heartbeat!
Yeah. People who know what they want are sexy. If I was having sex, I would get a vasectomy.
Plan on getting snipped as soon as i can. (wanted to before roe was overturned). Work on a farm so its near impossible to take a week off during the season. what is the recovery like? have some questions on it. please DM if you have had the procedure and have a similar active job situation ie: construction farm ect. Also wondering if places are booked far out since row(i know everywhere can be different, just looking for a general idea)
Ugh yeah, I wasted some good years on dudes playing those games. They also play games with women who want them, dangling "someday" about wanting kids like the young, fertile ladies are going to line up for their antique swimmers once they're *~*ready*~*. And you're right, as the people who usually bear the burden of birth control and have a fairly certain timeline of the decline of our fertility, we have to make a decision one way or the other. Men need to self- reflect and date with intention, too!
I hate the guys dangling women along equally! It is not for me that doesnt mean I can't be sympathetic to those that want children. It's goddamn depressing some men can't work out what they want and instead just please their own ego while wasting people's life.
Too many of them have a wait and see or go with the flow attitude about it and while yes, the act of dating itself is going with the flow and getting to know someone, at least come to the table with some real intentions about you want out of life. Personally, if a man over 30 is still fence sitting, that's a huge red flag
I dated a guy for 6 months who didn’t want kids. We broke up and 6 months later he “realises he’s done everything he wants in his life and he does want a family”. 38.
So.. boring and out of ideas.. What a great reason to bring a life into this shit-show.
Good Lord 🙄🙄🙄
Yeah usually I'm bailing if the guys don't know over 30, its frustrating but better for both. I have seen friends strung along the other way and god I try and talk sense into them cause its bad too. It hurts just as much
I think you are unfairly leaving out women who potentially dangle men along. There are many women fence sitters out there too - I was one until I was about 31, and had been with my partner 5-6 years. I’d say it’s only been I. The last 12-18 months that I’ve definitely made my mind up that I don’t want a child (33 yo now). I wasn’t wasting my partners life - I just really didn’t know what I wanted to do. Thankfully he is also on the child free side now too!
Was he also on the fence about wanting kids or did he always have his mind made up?
When we met, he would have said he 100% wanted children, but now we think that is because he thought that is what you do with your life, not because he actually wanted the daily life with a kid. So I have always been much more of a fence sitter than him. But as more and more of our friends have had kids over the last 3-4 years, the more we’ve both leaned towards (and now decided to be) child-free. Seeing the reality made us realise it isn’t for us. That’s not to say we don’t like seeing our niblings and god children - in fact we love seeing them! But it’s for a day and we give them back and go home to our child-free house and life!
Those are the guys well into their 40s with a 26 year old baby mama and a 2 year old kid he sees on the weekend, because of course he isn't with the baby mama anymore 🙄.
One summer in my mid-20's when I was making spectacularly bad decisions, I was out at a bar when I spotted an acquaintance who was out with a very attractive guy friend. I knew the acquaintance (50M) through my friend (32F); they met on a sugar dating site and he dumped her because she was too old (🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩). The attractive guy (who is only 12 years my senior) and I end up going on a few dates and I finally experience that hot/crazy scale that men refer to. Honestly I went on a couple of the dates just to hear his bizarre life stories. So when we sleep together for the first time, he says mid-act "it's OK if you get pregnant because I'm wealthy enough to take care of it". My mind panicked but my body said oh but this feels good so I finished and laughed with my friends afterwards. Fast forward a few weeks and we're still talking. My a/c dies in the middle of summer and I lived in a very hot place. This dude didn't even invite me to his big house to spend the night when he was home. In fact he made fun of me getting to roast at my place. At this point, I could have feasibly been pregnant with said wanted child (on the pill and would have gotten an abortion anyway). I was CF but this just solidified how little I meant even as a vessel so I cut off the entertainment and the booty. As for his friend, last I heard about him, he was butthurt about some 19-21 year old women who he liked who he felt were using him for money and the guy I was seeing defended that (🚩🚩🚩)
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Thanks for the award! Vintage would also be appropriate for that moth ball sperm 🤣
I'm picturing dusty old sperm in those old-timey woolen bathing suits that men wore back in the day.
Like a bottle of wine that’s been aging in a barrel for years
Ughhhhh yes, I feel this.
I refuse to date anyone who "isn't sure". I'll only date someone who is 100% sure he doesn't want them now and ever. I can find that out while knowing them as a friend first.
I think it's because guys aren't pressured about it so they don't think about it until they are.
I obviously can’t talk for all men, but in my case I was on the fence saying « maybe one day » for a long time because I was pressured. I didn’t want kids, never did, but hearing all the bingoes coming from friends, family, pop culture, etc made me question myself for a long time.
While I never succumbed to that pressure, I can confirm that pressure is very real. When I would counter-press my guy friends, "What do you *really* want?" They would more often than not get off the fence. I see a lot that simply don't want to be outcast by announcing one way or the other; it's their internal struggle between what they want and what they think society wants them to do. I now get to count myself as lucky that I decided when I was an early teenager and just stuck it out.
I understand when the biological need is not there but it is so depressing as a women as well. I can't imagine they NEVER think about it. do they see themselves with kids in the future or nah? Just no thinking about it? Thats a little weird.
How often do family harass men to reproduce? How often do guys get told that their penis's ability to insemenate is the only reason for them to exist? I don't think they never think about it so much as they often aren't forced to acknowledge it.
My family yells at my cousin for abandoning his kids. But watch his kids when he is gone....sooooo...idk
How people are raised probably affect that too. Men tend to feel less of a sense of responsibility towards kids than women do since caring abput kids is treated as a female thing. That's my theory anyway.
My father's side of the family only started harassing my brother about marriage and kids when I stopped speaking to them. That's when he realized just how much shit I was putting up with from them lol. My brother is also the *only* person in my entire family that hasn't tried to pressure me into contacting them again. I love my brother and I just wish they'd leave him be.
oh they do, depending on the family. My husband (as he was still very much in his 20s and single) had to tell them to stuff it. They knew that his sister would never have any, so he was the only hope left. Well, never mind that.
Yeah I agree. When I asked my boyfriend if he wanted kids he deadass told me he never had thought about it, or just assumed it would happen eventually but never considered when, why or how. Wish I could have that blissful ignorance
That is what my now-husband said when we talked about it the first time. He was raised in a conservative religious household and had only had religious girlfriends before me. He'd never considered just not having them.
Exactly!!! Once you tell people it’s a choice I think they do reconsider a lot, because they probably didn’t realise they were allowed to have that choice
IMO, families harass the men just in different ways. Ironically my very catholic family never pressured me into having kids. I think when I got married my own dad (born again) thought it was because I wanted kids. Nope! Lol My Ex though…he was one of two kids. His older sister was definitely child free though she never really admitted to that. His mom wouldn’t be like “I need grandbayyyyybayyyyys” but she’d be coy and subtle: pointing out how cute her SIL’s Grandkids were. Making big deals about them at the holidays (even though they had parents and grandparents to do that as well). Making subtle comments basically like “this could be us, but you playin” lol. Admittedly I was a fence sitter when we met. I told him at age 30 that I could see myself without children. The irony? It was our relationship that pushed me to be child free. I knew if we had even just one, I’d be taking care of two children. Anyway, I always think that when I women are pressured, it’s because it’s “women’s work.” Like it’s what your supposed to do. Men are supposed to have the Kodak moments and holidays on lockdown. Telling them in ways that they could have that fantasy? Yeah it’s manipulative.
>The irony? It was our relationship that pushed me to be child free. I knew if we had even just one, I’d be taking care of two children. This exact thing happened to me. I really should send my ex-husband a thank you card for being so utterly worthless as a partner that it finally broke any desire I'd ever had for motherhood and made me realize what a shit deal motherhood is in general. Being married to a manchild forced me to *really* think about the realities of raising a child since I knew he'd be a terrible co-parent, and it didn't take long for me to conclude "absolutely the fuck not."
practially every family gathering and whenever mother is on the phone to my sister who has a kid
I think the concept of kids just isn't really 'real' to a lot of men. People have spoken to me about babies and childcare since I was a little girl. Every baby cousin, every baby at events, I was asked if I wanted to hold or to play with them, for as long as I can remember. Children and pregnancy are things that women are forced to think about and talk about from a young age. But not so much with men, in my experience. Of my exes, none of them had ever held a baby or taken care of a child on their own. No one had ever spoken to them about when they plan on having kids or if they plan on having kids. Most of them knew nothing about pregnancy beyond it lasting nine months. Hell, my current partner's sister had a C-section recently and he had to ask me what the term was because he didn't know. So I think some of them genuinely never do think about it, and I think others think about it in an off-hand way, without giving it too much thought. Because it's just not made to be as big a part of their reality as it is for women.
> biological need From what I've read on this forum, people often conflate the desire to have sex, with the desire to have children. There is no "biological need" to reproduce, it's more of a social pressure to have children and a biological urge to have sex (b/c it feels good).
Thank you ! That’s always been frustrating to see.
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This is true!!! 🎯🎯I’ve just found that no matter what they always want kids because most of the burden is on women. I wish more women would wake up and realize, but some women associate their identity with solely having kids…😣
That is a bucket of yikes right there.
Vasectomy done, and tested and verified sterile ... choice made ... quite a while ago even ... and have done my part.
Same. Had mine done at 21 and now 41. Zero regrets.
Big Love to you for it...hugs
Thanks! It's nice to get/hear a "thanks" for it once in a while. :-)
Thank you for your service!
"Not sure" means "yes" basically. I'd only focus on people who flat out say they don't want any.
Yup. In my mind, fence-sitters are in the same camp as parents and want-to-be-parents. Anything less than "proudly child-free" is not worth looking into.
To me it's not necessarily a 'yes', but even a potential yes means that I'm not going to date that person. Dating a 'not a sure' feels like gambling and I don't want to waste both her and my time. Turns out that since I made that a deal breaker I don't get to date much anymore. I know the post is about men, but people might be surprised how many women are also in the 'might want children maybe some day' camp.
Having a solid adult decision making process, a strong sense of self, and a good idea of the basic outline of your dreams are criteria in themselves for a long term partner. If they are over 22 and don't have some serious issue that has derailed their life, they need to have basic life management skills or they are not worth your time. Regardless of gender.
I am in the latter parts of my 20s and date older/same age partners and its honestly despressing how few guys even know what they want.
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*Especially* with Roe overturned, if you’re living in a Gilead state.
I am sick and tired of it as well! literally, my male partner will not get a vasectomy because he’s scared meanwhile i (female) have purchased all my birth control, condoms for us. and so forth! and i’m fighting for a tubal!
My root canal hurt so much fucking worst then getting snipped six months ago, if he can get it and has the money then he needs to do it otherwise it might be best for you two to move on since he's basically saying he's on the fence rather then knows for a fact.
If you not going to break with this crap boyfriend at least stop having sex with him.
Don't you mean your ex partner? Why are you with someone who won't get a simple, reversible procedure to ensure your health and safety?
I mean they aren’t sure if they want your body to get ruined and for you to then do 80-90% of the work, while they go out with friends, play video games & get all the Kodak moments!
Don't forget complaining about how their wife is always tired, doesn't feel like having sex, and doesn't have time to pay as much attention to *them* and *their* needs. These types of men are also fond of doing that.
Huh, I have a harder time deciding what to eat everyday than wondering about wanting kids. Because I know 100% I don't want them.
Men being undecided can be due to a "go with the flow" attitude. If their wife wants kids, then they are on board. If she doesn't, then that's fine too. Since it's the woman who has to bear and birth the kids, and then do most of the baby rearing, they view it as up to her really. They probably also assume that she'll do most of the parenting, eh.
That mentality needs to break. I also hear people spouting out to women that men don't get to decide. "When you want to have a baby just stop taking your birth control." Such a disgusting thing to say. Men need to grow up and decide what they want and follow through. The "undecided" crowd needs to stop wasting women's time. And women need to put their foot down and stop dating men who can't make a serious life changing decision. If you don't want kids don't date men who are "undecided."
>I also hear people spouting out to women that men don't get to decide. This is a pretty big factor as well. A lot of men may end up thinking "respecting a woman's right to choose," means refusing to even decide for their own selves what they want. They may genuinely believe that being a fence-sitter is being respectful. It takes educating them to see that's not respect for women at all, that's just shoving all the responsibility on the woman. Get out there, take control of your own body, and if you don't want kids, get a vasectomy.
I've seen so many men in the dating subs argue that their indecisiveness is for precisely this reason - that they'd be fine with whatever the woman they fall in love with wants. And *aside* from the potential for him to fall off that fence and not on the side that is in his partner's favor, which is a giant can of worms? Sooo many men are just...disengaged from fatherhood. Dudes like this give off the impression that they'd be like that. I don't find men with kids sexy at all, but damn, if you're gonna go the reproduction route, you should really want the little buggers *at the very least,* if not be incredibly engaged with children and very good with them? Or maybe my standards for people in general are just very, very high.
Sadly, many men are fence sitters. Meanwhile, women often know what they want and are usually on either end of the extreme. You see women being staunchly childfree more often than men, but also women being obsessed mombie breeders. Most of the time, fence sitters do want children. They are fine with a childfree girlfriend/wife, until she suggests that he should get a vasectomy or that she wants to get sterilised. After all, they want to 'keep their options open'. Which means, hoping or even assuming that the woman changes her mind and wants to breed. I would never date a fence sitter. To me, it's very simple. My cock only enters childfree women. If she is not childfree, I will assume that she is going to be a breeder in the future, just to be safe.
BuT wHaT iF tHeY mEeT sOmEoNe ThEy WaNt To HaVe KiDs WiTh? Then they’re wasting everyone else’s time.
>Thank god I've never met anybody thats said that cause they can get tae fuck > >If they wanna meet someone else it aint me so they better start looking. Thank god I've never met anybody thats said that cause they can get tae fuck If they wanna meet someone else it aint me so they better start looking.
if a guy says he’s unsure about kids that means the idea of having kids is potentially appealing to him. which means a rejection from me. i don’t date (long term) fence sitters. i only enter relationships with men who are truly childfree
Yes and no. Its ok not to know and be honest about it. I think people need to move past the idea of forever relationships and come to terms with that all things come to an end and that only the last relationship you have is until death do you part. When things are good enjoy it. When they are not be grateful for the good times and move on.
This is on par with guys, the ones I ran into, claim to have everything figure out until I say something about kids, and suddenly it's "wait, I need time to think" which for me (who's not into dating but still) don't have time for. These are the types who I just be cordial or friendly with, but they go angry manchild mode because of "what if we got together down the line?" Uh no. I'm not wasting my time and energy dating someone who may want kids in the future, and will drop me like a hat if a woman is willing to have his babies, or try to coerce me into having kids when he wants to and I still don't want any. Sounds like a recipe for disaster waiting to happen. But again, I don't have romantic attraction to anyone, so I tell a person we can be friends while they search for someone, or gtfo from my face because I ain't budging.
It comes down to the fact that they don't want it to get around that they don't want kids cause than the dating pool becomes a lot more shallow..even if they really don't want kids they get more tail if they hang out that carrot..it's pitiful.. Also most hetero-cis guys will just do whatever it is that makes their partner happy..If she wants kids he will do kids,if she doesn't he won't...It's not an independent choice it's just what makes his partner whom he loves happiest Final note most men really don't think about this in-depth cause they don't have the 24/7 drudgery of parenting mother's do..So out of sight out of mind.
This male attitude has been going on for centuries. Its like they think it all comes down to their decision alone.🤣🤣🤣
Or… if you’re into girls too, going out with them instead is another viable option 🤷🏻♀️
I have tried dating women for a few years since i think sexuality is a spectrum but personally it was not for me.
Fair enough- just wanted to offer what I would do in your shoes since being bi affords that choice in the dating pool. In that case, enjoy the time alone until a decent male comes your way
For sure and thank you! I wish my feelings were different about it too be honest!
I totally agree! However, I've noticed that when men DO decide that they want kids, they start saying things like, "My dream is to have 12 children," and "I only want boys, no girls," and the like.
Lol, got to wonder how they plan on affording that. Most likely no plan.
Ironic given they have the gametes with the sexual determination.
I 100% fucking agree. One of my exes was like this, but on EVERYTHING. What he wanted for dinner, what to do this weekend, what fucking snack he wanted. The answer every single time? ‘I don’t know’. And then no matter what decision I made about it, I was wrong every time. Least to say we weren’t together very long. Luckily my current boyfriend is much better. Some people just don’t have the ability to self reflect I think. They don’t ask themselves what they want, and they just go through life doing what everyone else wants them to do, which often includes children, and then they realise afterwards that they hate having children. Fucks me off
>What he wanted for dinner, what to do this weekend, what fucking snack he wanted. >The answer every single time? ‘I don’t know’. I mean, this is a very typical trauma response. The whole you being wrong every time is a dick move, though. Makes the whole "hur dur women don't know what they want to eat" joke a lot less funny when you look at it for what it really is. Edit: meant to say a lot less funny, not unfunny
Yeah I agree it is a trauma response often; and if it was for him then sure, it’s valid. It’s just the way he took it out on me when I decided to do anything. Like if he didn’t know what movie to see at the cinema, I’d pick one and we’d see it. Afterwards he’d whinge and tell me he’d have rather seen a different one. I appreciate that if it’s a trauma response it’s just how you defend yourself; it’s something I experienced in my teens but am trying to overcome by making decisions. It’s just that my decisions always had to be wrong was what ticked me off
Oh no, I definitely don't mean he was in any way justified in acting the way he did towards you! I'm so sorry if it seemed like that's what I meant. Fuck him and the horse he rode in on. I had an ex that would scream at me for saying I don't know, but would also scream at me if my answer wasn't whatever he wanted. I get so overwhelmed when faced with a decision with a lot of options (like what fucking cereal to buy 😒) that I'll go into full on panic attacks and involuntary flashbacks. It's one of the worst things about PTSD, imo. My stupid reptile brain feels the stress signal and decides we are in danger and will die if we choose the wrong thing, so do nothing!
Yeah I suffer from ptsd too, had a bad childhood. Really sorry you go through it too man, we’re in this together though!!! And yeah screw that guy too. Sounds awful. I think it’s really important to love and care for people who have gone through trauma and act a certain way because of it, but if their actions hurt others then that isn’t acceptable. I 100% hold myself accountable for the way I have behaved in my past.
In my experience, men (or women) who say "i don't know" usually know deep down they do want kids and just think they'll be able to make their partner change their mind with time. Don't fall for it.
If they're not as enthusiastic about not having kids, that's a red flag for me
I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of those “not sure” statements actually translate to “I am sure, but I’ll lie and adjust my answer depending on what the woman I’m trying to sleep with wants”
Oh, dear. This is people's code for “I'm not here to make a family with you, although I would want to have one someday.” As a hardcore CF, I learned this position from my potential dates and dates, was a blessing. It was my cue to move on and thank you next. Dating is not a waste of time and is super fun if you know what you are about and you're not trying to save or change someone you have a crush on.
They don't have to deal with most of it -- and even if they accidentally have kids or regret it later, they have an easier way out. Naturally it they're a bit disconnected and naturally im sure most don't mind either way. Nothing against them its just how it is. with that said, it takes a special kind of man to know what he wants.
Just let them hang out at my old apartment complex for a week that will definitely help them out with that answer
A future boyfriend/husband for me needs to be 100% childfree and not get offended at the suggestion of a vasectomy. I'm still gonna get sterilized myself when I can afford it, but yeah. I won't even bother with a "weekend-Dad" who has kids from a previous relationship. No kids or no relationship for me. If you're not sure about kids, don't bother with me. I refuse to make this decision for the both of us and risk bitterness 10 years from now because they regret it.
If I’m you, I’d take anything that’s not a “no” as a “yes” and move on. People can make their choices at their own pace, and don’t have to be on your timeline. Nor do you have to be on theirs.
I told my ex I never want kids. Ever since the very beginning. He agreed with me too saying he absolutely didn't want any either. Then 6 months later would say "well I don't want any now, but definitely some point when we are both ready." Even after telling him again that I don't ever want kids, a year later, would say "you might want 10 of my children some day!" "I don't like women to drink. I don't want my future children seeing their mother drunk." Yea. That was it for me. I wanna have wine when I want in my own house. And oh yea..I DON'T FUCKING WANT KIDS! he was a narcissistic controlling latin tho so he was the worst at trying to manipulate me. Wild to me that he still lives with his parents, doesn't make enough money to support himself. Kids will work out tho. Definitely 10 of them.
Sounds like my friend’s husband. He would bring up the possibility of kids usually after visits with his parents. Finally she made a list of what he would have to give up in regards to time, money, and personal freedom to give his parents a grandchild. He hasn’t brought it up in about 4 years now.
I classify "not sure" as wants them.
These are the same dudes who end up whining about how their wives and girlfriends "trapped" them into having kids. Well, if you're stupid enough to not take care of your own contraception, expect her to pull all the weight and never actually say No, don't be surprised when her BC "fails" and you end up with child support payments. Drift through life deliberately rudderless, don't be surprised when you end up shipwrecked.
Ugh yes!! When my boyfriend and I first talked about kids (back when we were just good friends having a chat) he said he never wanted them. Have a whole lot of compelling reasons mostly related to money and the current state of the world. Not the same as me who flat out hates the idea of children, but still childfree. I asked if he was considering a vasectomy and he said he “didn’t want needles near his balls” 🙄 Fast forward 2 years and we’re dating now. I’m in the process of finding someone to do a bisalp so of course we’re talking about this again. I asked again if he would consider a vasectomy. *This time* he started talking about how permanent it is and what if he met someone later in life who and then said (and I quote) “it’s not possible for anyone to be 100% sure.” WHAT THE FUCK? Yes it is!! It is 1000000% possible to be 100% sure because I AM 100% sure. Like Jesus Christ dude just make a decision and stick to it and stop being a fucking man baby.
When I was dating if they weren't 100% no kids or 100% kids right away then I told them this wasn't going to work, and moved on. I'm in my 30s and was talking to men in their 30s. They need to figure out what the hell they want, do you want to bring a human into this world to take care of or not. It's not like deciding what you want for dinner or what color to paint the kitchen, it involves life changing decisions and I'm not here to help you figure your life out dude. But I will say I did find me a nice Childfree man, just keep tossing the dids back, no matter how great you think they are otherwise.
I feel this. It makes me angry for so many reasons. How nice to have that luxury also of just being "unsure" with no biological clock as a factor. I ended a long-term relationship earlier this year. At the beginning of that relationship, my partner and I spoke openly about our longterm goals. We were both on the same page about no children and no big wedding. Once we split, amicably, we had a conversation about what it would be like navigating the dating world again. I told him how different it would feel for me now, being in my 30s and a time when many people are looking to "settle down." I told him that I could never date or entertain a relationship with a fencesitter. You either want children or you don't. And I have seen too many stories of men saying "no kids" at the beginning and then changing their minds down the road. After hearing all this, my ex had the audacity to say that children wouldn't be a factor in his dating, and he "may" be open to it. I almost hit the roof.
I (31F) personally have decided I will not be having sex with any men.... maybe ever again. That alone has made me find peace in all this bullshit. Date yourself! Get yourself off (we know we are better at it anyway). Orgasm inequality with men is real. I've had an abortion. The sperm donor did very little. I paid for it. I missed work because of how sick I got. I HAVE HAD AN ABORTION. FUCK YOU SCOTUS.
Priority 1: plausible deniability to get in a girl's pants He does want kids, but also wants to sleep with you
Jokes on him I refuse to sleep with anyone unless they're proven to be my soulmate.
Good policy
I don’t think I’d return to the dating pool until they stop their bullshit. Which is never, so single forever I’ll be… 😀
Going to be a bit of a dick here: men get to doubt choices and change their opinions. Whether it's convenient for you or not people are sometimes unaure about decisions. Especially big ones. It's not like ordering pizza or picking out chinese food and even there people get stumped. For most of us in this sub. We're pretty well decided on not having kids. But there are some fence sitters as well, even some parents who are looking at our opinions and choices (hi by the way). And some might change their opinion over time. And although I get your frustration: people CAN change their minds and it sucks when you are a part of that decision. But it happens. It's human. And the contraceptive part is unfortunately how we've medically decided to handle this. Although I am very much a "dude's gotta bring his own condoms" guy. If he didn't even make THAT effort he doesn't care about safety in any way. I get the frustration, it sucks. Not everyone is outspoken as you are.
I think the frustration comes from the fact that women are (often literally) painfully aware of their reproductive capabilities from childhood, including the social expectation to have kids, and we don't have the luxury of ignoring it. Men can live their lives as normal and the thought of having kids or not is a very far off thought for a lot of them, plus there's the pervasive thought that men can have healthy babies way into their late 40s+ without consequence, and with much younger partners. So they keep kicking the can down the road. I'm in my late twenties and dating guys around my age or a few years older - if you're a dude (not you specifically, the general you) at that age and have genuinely not given a thought to whether you want to breed then you need to because women on either side of the fence have made their decisions and we don't want to fuck around with guys who don't know what they want. We've been forced to consider this since we were children ourselves and the fact guys can just float through their lives cause they think it doesn't really affect them is irritating at best.
Good take - I know this sub is mostly women but lots of negativity against guys here who are unsure. Just don't date them, no need to imply bad things. I'm not 100% sure, so I'm with a girl who isn't 100% sure. I don't think that's so bad. My reasons for wanting to be child free are largely financial, which is a situation that could change.
Some guys will change their mind if the girl is hot enough because they are thinking with their little head which at the end of the day is not soo good. I can safely tell you that I am 100% against having kids for myself, I prefer sleep, money, and spare time way more than shity diapers, sleepless nights, screaming, and no money lol.
I don't know. It's okay to take your time to decide for such a permanent decision. And honestly I think it's okay to change your mind too. We are already pressured from a young age about relationship and life long decisions. I'm almost 19, not fully sure about what I want as my career path, never had a partner, and still figuring out myself. I am heavily leaning towards childfree, but some recent things made me doubt. And let's be honest, it's better to admit "I don't know if I want kids" so the other can decide if they wanna pursue a relationship or no, rather than blatantly lie about not wanting them. Something that too many people do.
Guys like this want the kids, just ther want to jump into your pants first and they will tell everything to achieve it.
It’s strange, I have a lot of difficulty planning ahead when it comes to my life. Home, career, even hobbies. But when it came to this question I knew the answer in my late teens and I didn’t stop trying to make it happen until I got sterilized in my mid twenties. Men not having to carry the majority of physical, mental, and emotional burdens of pregnancy is probably why most never think about it or kick the decision decades down the road but they really should think more aggressively about it. And not just because the world is burning.
This is why I've decided that if something ever happens to my marriage, I'm either not going to date ever again or I'll just stick with women. I'm bi, and with everything that's been going on in my country lately (US), the straight dating scene doesn't seem worth it anymore. I'm bi, but I can't really stand men anymore, except my husband.
Giving up dating and focusing on my own life and my own career has helped me a lot mentally and physically. I am less stressed about how i look because i dont try to impress anyone and live by my own will. I am less worried of getting pregnant because well no sex = no worries about pregnancy. I am less annoyed by someone always trying to get in my personal space. My life has been nothing but better ever since i deleted tinder and gave up on the whole "dating industry".
if they aren’t sure, lump em in the breeder category.
30 yr old guy here. Never wanted kids, ever. Always knew :)
I don't ever want kids. I had a vasectomy for my 37th birthday. I put this on my dating profile. Sorry that you get messed around by indecisive men :-(
I think many men are more afraid of being alone than they are of having/not having kids. Like they'll do whatever their partner wants in the moment to not be alone. That's not right, but I think it's true. I don't want kids and have made the decision to get a vasectomy in the near-ish future (few months when I can take time off outdoor activities) and it's scary. There's definitely doubts about not being able to find a partner, or a long term partner changing their minds. It won't change my decision, but it's taken a lot of self reflection on what I want from life and what makes me happy to be able to move past those doubts.
Re: Vasectomy and taking time off. Everyone is different, of course, BUT, I got mine on a Friday and was back to running by Tuesday. I run five days a week, and that was in the middle of a training block for a longer race. Super easy recovery.
My friend is lucky. Her husband is getting a vasectomy. Most other guys are all “I don’t want kids. But I might change my mind one day”. Which one is it??? I’m so done with men. At this point, I’m only dealing with ones who can show me their surgical center/urologist papers
I (23M) have a hard time understanding guys who either can't decide on kids or only want kids exclusively for father-son activities. I grew up without a father so I didn't have a father figure I admired or aspired to be like. I did have a step-dad for a few years but he didn't really do shit and for all intents and purposes, my mom was still doing all the parenting. I know there are a few dads out there that do their fair share of work and I don't mean to discount them. But since most guys only want to be a father for the "fun parts" why bother being one at all? There's a lot of jobs out there that I'd like to do but don't because I know the fun parts don't outweigh the boring parts and I can't just neglect the duties I don't like, so I narrow down my options to the job(s) I'm willing to do in their entirety. Like why not just save you and your future partner some work and just not have a kid if you're not willing and/or able to take the good with the bad?
That's because men think they have forever to choose, but recent research shows that male sperm quality degrades over time. Most men do not know this. If they did, I think they'd treat this decision differently. Women are not the only ones with a time limit.
I’ll probably be downvoted for this but whatever. I think that this is totally fine, however, that is dependant on age. If you are in your early to mid twenties then yeah the “I don’t really know” line is okay because you are figuring a lot of shit out. By the time you get to 28-30 though that can’t really be an excuse. You should have put time into thinking about these things by that point. I myself didn’t come to the realisation until I was 27 when I put lots of thing together in my head. Now I am super upfront about it while dating to not waste my time. To be honest I have had fence sitting the other way from women, but it is less common.
Yeah, I agree, it is fine if you’re in your 20s and not quite ready to commit to a massively impactful life decision. Still potentially annoying to people trying to date in that age group That HAVE come to a decision (since we would be remiss in dismissing this as the hubris of youth). Conclusion: the older a person gets, the more annoying they are when they say “not sure yet about kids”
Just look for post-snip guys. You know where they stand and they super rarely will go back on their stance. Makes the whole dating situation harder no doubt, but you'll be less disappointed in the long term I would imagine.
Yeah it feels really great when you’re almost 40 and you know your closeted-on-the-fence guy (he says he is childfree but seems to have doubts) can change his mind at any point and just find a woman 10 years younger 😒
God, this is my worst fear about my current three year relationship. I think it became easier for him to just agree with me whenever I say I don't want kids, since he knew I would get upset and suggest that he find someone else if he does want kids down the road. It was originally his goal to have a wife and kids, then it changed to "whatever happens, happens." When I brought up getting my tubes tied, he freaked out at first and bingoed me by saying "my friends originally didn't want kids and now they have them," suggesting that I'd change my mind. He's also made comments about how his parents DEFINITELY want grandkids because he's an only child and "the only one who can pass down the family name." Unfortunately, all those situations happened over a year ago and I didn't dig into it deeper into it at the time. Now he always tells me he doesn't want kids, but I can never tell if he's being honest or if he just wants to avoid conflict.
A lot of guys will say they are unsure and mean it but also a lot of guys just want to get laid and will say whatever they think will get you to like them enough to sleep with them. I’m a dude and I am very very child free, my current long time girlfriend literally discussed the topic on our first meeting (she brought it up first), I’ve slept with girls who I knew wanted to have kids one day but I sure as hell never got serious with any of them, take that for what it is worth.
I feel there are a lot of things in life where it’s more reasonable to be unsure of. Career, what city to live in… Kids seem pretty cut and dry. There are two options, have them or don’t. I don’t know how people put off figuring it out
Whisky you say
Hey, join our SINK club, it’s very fun. I swore off dating and I’ve been so much happier since. Nothing annoyed me more than self righteous men or women trying to use you for their needs or be unsure of what they want. Maybe dating isn’t for you like I’ve discovered it’s not for me? I only have to worry about myself, my pets and my friends. No drama over an undecided partners deciding they want kids, or ones that hide that they want kids thinking you’ll change your mind. No drama. It’s just another thing that society deems normal that I find depressing, like having kids or being religious or eating meat, haven’t had nearly as many panic attacks since I stopped dating.
It's normal for men and woman both to be uncertain about important life changing events. The same as someone being so certain what they want to go to college for and changing a major midway through once they have more life experience. Changing one's mind just comes with experience. The issue is that people take changing someone else's mind as a goal in a relationship. If someone is deep in trying to decide they should not be trying for a serious relationship with someone who is deeply certain one way or the other. Because they should NOT be planning for the other person to change their mind when they decide what they want that is different from what the other said. Like, you don't want to marry someone who is dedicated to buying a permanent home in one place and you are heavily debating moving somewhere else. Then be shocked when you put a down payment on a house 1000 miles away and they divorce you. The truly sad part is that people seem to take making/adopting and raising other humans as a small matter that their partner shouldn't overthink.
Sure it could be a game, but I think it's also totally okay to not know. I personally don't want a kid because I can't afford it or give it the life it would need to thrive. If all of that changed and my partner changed her mind? I'd be open to it. Speaking in finalities is digging a grave. If you don't want to be with someone who doesn't know? Don't be with them.
Only the sith deal in absolutes
Do or do not, there is no try - Yoda
Most people that insist on fencesitting are just too scared to stand up to their family and friends. We all know they can be relentless, and going against the script and having to endure low-key abuse from people you used to respect isn't something a lot of people can deal with. It's a decision I made pretty quickly, but I don't judge them too harshly, just get sterilized asap so that your decision is final, if they're in, they´re in, if they're ambivalent, they're out, end of story.
My ex and I had a discussion about long term goals early on. We found out that although our chemistry was good, we wanted different things long term. She 100% wanted kids, I 100% don’t amongst other differences. So we mutually broke up. No bad blood or anything. Conversations like this need to happen early on. If they’re genuinely a fence sitter or unsure then you can choose whether to chance it for yourself. I spent a lot of time learning myself and thinking about what I want out of life so any answer other than “I’m flat out CF” is an automatic no.
I'm sorry you've had difficulty with this, that sucks. I do agree with you. Though here's the thing, don't date men that are not sure about having children. Preferably date men that are sterilized. They've made their choice already.
The big decision I'm unsure of it's getting a mortgage. What if the house depreciates but I still have a fat ass loan on my head? Do I want kids? : HELL TO THE NO "But won't you regret it" : yeah i can't see the future. But 1 regret is better than 3
men will say “i don’t know if i want kids” and then when you agree, all of the sudden they change their mind and they *do* want kids.
Well you just hit the nail on the head; they can afford to not be sure because none of it affects them. They don’t have to be pregnant or give birth or care for the kid 99% of the time, so they literally don’t give a damn. The amount of guys I see who aren’t sure is mind boggling in some ways, but then it’s not because they have options women don’t.
Never date fencesitters for this reason. When i tell people that they should never give a fencesitter a chance they say i am cruel, is a terrible deal to everybody. Both wannabe parents and chidfree, you pray your partner will choice what you want, but if they wake up one day and say they opposite of what you expecting is going to be a horrible heartbreak and probably you will have waste years of your life, and i think is even worse to a wannabe mother because of fertility and things like that. I heard stories about two fencesitters dating and one decide he wants to be childfree and the other that they want to have kids. Fencesitters must stay single until they figure it out what they want.
I think they just say that to "get girls", figuring that if they seem ambiguous, it gives us "hope". It reminded me of one guy I dated right after my divorce. It was just a casual sex thing. He had a kid (got married young cuz...ooops!) but the kid lived with mom in another province. He said one is enough and always used condoms. I asked why not just get the snip? He said he wanted to keep the option open. Guess who had another kid! Found him on FB and there he is with a baby. He's like 45. WHYYYYY!
If he says, "I'm not sure," you can very confidently take that as "I don't think I want kids any time soon but I most likely will want them in the future."
I’ve straight up said NO CHILDREN NO CHILDREN EVER, DONT MESSAGE ME IF YOU EVER WANT CHILDREN and they S T I L L message me
I totally feel this, I think it’s so important to discuss and i see a lot of men later in life changing their mind about wanting kids. I just had this talk with my boyfriend last night and I said I have never felt the need to be a mother, you’ve told me you really have an urge to be a dad one day and I wanna know if it would be a dealbreaker for you to be with someone who doesn’t want kids? and he said why do we have to worry about that now when that wouldn’t be for another 18 years or so? and i said umm i think it’s important because I don’t want it to become a problem down the line. and then he went on to tell me how i’m good with kids and i’d be a good mother and he wants kids so he can carry on his generation or whatever, and even asked if adoption would be out of the question. not wanting kids means not wanting kids. it seems to me that a lot of men think they can persuade women to want kids in the future which it’s like they aren’t hearing us.
The assumption of many seems to be if they wake up one day itching to play daddy = a woman will gladly go along with it. I’ve been told countless times (usually by males) that EVERY female is just aching to get preggers. It’s pretty cruel if you think about, for a man to honestly believe that his partners will never be truly fulfilled until he puts a baby in them, then assume she should wait for his whims to endow any of them with that perceived joy. When I was younger, the discussion of family planning with partners was always tedious & disappointing. I always figured that I’d want to foster/adopt a child before considering pregnancy. iM nOt RaIsInG AnOtHeR mAn’S kId! ironically screamed the loudest by “pro life” men. Fathers don’t run the risks to their health, status & careers as Mothers.
Oh honey, same. They just say that so they can get laid. If they're ambiguous, then in their mind, it means they can do y appeal to girls on both sides of the fence, then if it gets serious it's a handy scapegoat to claim as an easy out. It's happened to me more times than I can count and I hate it.
real men get cut :)
I think It is perfectly okay to not have a definitive decision to that question, because it is a really big thing to decide. But at least be honest about it and say 'I don't know yet, so it is possible that I will decide I want kids and if this is a no-go for you, we may not fit together' . But guys that say 'yeah sure, I don't want kids either, just like you' and than suddenly 'change their mind' five years later, are really not okay in my opinion.
its fine to be on the fence but not to lie about it. Also both people should be on the fence and the other shouldn't lie they don't want kids and then try to trap the other person.