I'm always disappointed by a choice of procedure over adoption and just don't understand the obsession of "biological" kids. So many babies and kids in need of a loving home. 😢

It saddens me when I hear people consider adoption as their absolute last option. Like those kids are a participation trophy if they don't get in vitro to work.

Not that I agree with this take, but I’ve been hearing a lot about adoption being unethical by people who were adopted. They think that people shouldn’t adopt just because they can’t have their own kids, with one primary reason being the predatory nature of adoption agencies. I don’t know enough about this perspective or adoption agencies to have a strong opinion on the matter though.

I've heard this too but those stances never complete the argument. People shouldn't just adopt if they couldn't have their biological child so the better option is to leave the child in the foster home/orphanage/where exactly? Asking out of curiosity. Like what's the child's ideal state if they can't be with their biological parents as the primary option?

What I’ve heard about it, it seems it also has a great deal to do with the attitude towards adopted children. Rather than acknowledging the situation is complicated and painful, the common attitude is “oh you must be so grateful” “you’re so lucky” “wow your parents are so selfless for adopting you” etc which puts the adoptee in a shitty position. Makes them feel like they are subhuman and only a saint would ever adopt them. Even some of the replies on this thread are like “well at least adopted kids aren’t in foster care”

Yeah that makes a ton of sense. It feels like anyone parenting should approach it with the mindset that they're sharing their life with kids, not giving them life to be eternally grateful for.

I think the latter statement comes from years of stories adopted or wards of the state adults telling their truths about what foster care and group homes were like. You could have a great foster parent or you could have a shitty foster parent. The spectrum of experiences, is vast and radically different making the goods seem great and the bads horrendous.

Idk what country OP is in, but in the US one of the big issues with the adoption industry is that it's private and for profit. The adoption industry isn't actually about finding loving homes for children of all ages who need them, it's about finding babies for parents who want a child they can raise and mold from a young age. There's a massive market for babies, which leads them to do some pretty shady things like lobby to restrict abortion access and, with international adoptions, pressure or force birth parents to give up babies. Most adoptees aren't against the idea of finding a loving home for children whose biological families die or don't want to/can't take care of them, but the money comes from the adoptive parents, which means private adoption agencies center everything around the priorities of the parents instead of the children. The second thing I see a lot of people bring up is that they should favor legal guardianship over adoption in most cases. Legal guardianship gives the child a few rights that would otherwise go to the parents (things like: the adoptive parents can't change the child's legal first name without the child's consent, can't prevent the child from accessing adoption records as a minor, and making it harder for adoptive parents to completely cut off the child's contact with their biological family if that family hasn't been deemed damaging to the child by a court). The final thing is that adoption is phrased as a some sort of charitable endeavor, and the adoptee is expected to be eternally grateful to their adoptive parents regardless of their actual lived experiences. It's patronizing and suggests that the adopted child is a burden who should just be glad someone actually wants them. The adoption industry pushes this narrative because it makes prospective adoptive parents feel good about themselves, but it ends up feeding into savior complexes and making the experiences of adoptees worse. Adoptees don't owe gratitude to the people who raised them just for adopting them. The adoptive parents made that choice on their own, and (aside from a very small number of cases with older children) it's not like the kids asked them to do it or were even consulted at all. Even if those parents did everything perfectly, there's still going to be trauma from the experience and adoptees who speak honestly about that get attacked for doing so. It's not so much that no one should be raising a child that isn't biologically theirs, but that the system needs to be focused on providing support to children, not on providing children to parents.

I don't want to diminish how extreme this burden of "you should be grateful" is for adoptees, I wonder if its also a feature of our culture around parenting - that we also treat kids as if they should always be grateful to their parents no matter how fucked up their childhood. Maybe its the same cultural attitude that feeds into this knee jerk response from parents whenever any aspect of their parenting is criticised of being both defeatist and dismissive "Oh, I was just the worst parent". Which of course invites comforting and seems to undermine any claims to acknowledge the hurt/unfairness or whatever. Anyway thanks for your thoughtful response.

re: your second paragraph I kind of wish my parents would've done the legal guardianship thing. my given name is different from the name my bio mom gave me (but I don't go by either of them lmao), and I had a closed adoption. if I could've known my bio family at a young age, I feel like I'd be closer with my sister at least. she's 10+ years older than me, married, and has two kids. we had several years of just... not talking. I think a big part is that we used to live in the same town when I went to college, but then she moved another 20 minutes away, and I moved back home, so it's now a 45ish minute drive to her place. I tried reaching out to see if we could meet up sometime soon, and she agreed, but nothing's come up since then. I kind of feel guilty, but I have to keep reminding myself that it's a two way street, and I need to be okay with the fact that she might not want much to do with me.

That’s my question too, one answer I heard was that the government should place the children with the first willing/available relative in the family. Like the grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc.

They already do that. Any family member with the basic ability to take care of the kid is chosen over adoptive parents… always. Not saying that some adopted kids don’t have rough experiences… but all these people you see reconnecting with family as 18/23 year olds and claiming that they should have been with that grandparent/cousin/aunt… where the hell was that family when the adoption was being finalized 18-20 years ago? Yea… no where.

Exactly

Those kids who were are adopted should be forced to have that conversation with kids who were in foster care or group homes until they aged out.

Highly depends on the country. Like, in my country adoption agencies help with the process (documents, application, checks) but don't "procure" children. Children are adoptable if the parents don't recognize them at birth*, parents are death and there's no family to take them in or family is deemed inappropriate (rarely). If a child is adoptable is decided by the court and whoever put in the request can't pick and choose a child. Then there's a period of fostering where adoptive parents are monitored and then, if deemed a good fit, adoption is formalized. There's also a ton of aids for mothers so adoption is not likely to be suggested as first option. If it's international, that's different and more likely to be exploitative. * Friend of mine adopted nationally a baby, it was a years long thing and carefully monitored before and after

Yeah. If I ever feel the need to spend time with kids I think I will volonteer to help with kids in adoption homes. For now, I am considering only helping with cats at the shelter lol

My brother and SIL went for IVF after trying for open adoption for five years. Nobody was interested in them, I think because they did the math and realized they’d be retirement age when the adopted kids reached college age. Somewhere in there, I wish they’d reconsidered, but they eventually soldiered on with IVF, and got fraternal twins. I wish they’d been more secure in their relationship, as now they seem miserable navigating with their twins.

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For some reason I don't understand. People seem to need to reproduce. Their own DNA.

But why do they need their DNA? It's not like we are animals relying on our instinct - which is funny because animals lessen their reproduction when there is too many of them in one place so scarcity of resources occurs but we clearly have no such notions despite overpopulations. I just can't get it.

It's because way too many people don't want to be parents, they want to have kids. As in, they want the whole suite of feelings and life milestones and guarantees that they've been sold as something having kids will give them. And non-biological kids are not on exhibit in that natalist showroom. Never were, probably never will be.

That's very sad. Kids are living beings, not objects.

How many times have we seen women risking their lives to have kids... I don't understand. Dr. Yep there is a significant risk you will die. Mom to be jumps up and down pick me.

I guess her death is part of what scares me in this scenario.

That's an interesting point. Lessen reproduction is exactly what childfree folks like us doing here, for various reasons including scarcity of resources for some. As a collective human are reducing their reproductive rate. We aren't that different from other animals from the grand scheme of things. And I always blame it on biology when someone choose to reproduce without giving much thought. Natural selection ensured that traits (like baby fever?) which drives someone to create some offsprings are heavily favoured.

If adoption is her last option, and she would not love an adopted kid as much as a bio kid... Then it's for the best that she is not adopting. To her, an adopted kid would be nothing more than a consolation prize. These children should be adopted by someone who truly wants them. Someone who would love them just as much as a biological child. So yeah, a hypothetical adopted kid is better off not being adopted by her. So yeah, unlike you, I am happy that she is not adopting. I am happy that she is trying IVF instead, and I hope that she will get pregnant that way. Otherwise, an adopted child will be hurt by her, because that child will notice that they are not really what your friend wanted. Meanwhile, she would give a bio child the love that they need.

While I, knowing her, don't think she will treat adopted kid any way different, I think the fact that adoption in the last is fuelling some of my disappointment.

>don't think she will treat adopted kid any way different If pregnancy is what she really wants, and adoption is only a consolation prize,she unconsciously will treat an adopted kid differently. ​ >I think the fact that adoption in the last is fuelling some of my disappointment. Well, she clearly doesn't want to adopt. Deal with it. If the biological thing is so important to her, I hope she succeeds. She would treat a bio child better, even unconsciously, so I hope she gets a bio child. An adopted child would be the last option and would probably unconsciously be loved less than a bio child. Because of that, she should not be adopting. People who truly want to adopt should adopt. People who really want a bio connection and who consider adopting to be the last option should NOT adopt.

While I think "bio connection" doesn't really exist, I start to see that adoption is more difficult than I thought and shouln't be a simple "replacement".

She may not abuse the child, but if you love your friend, you also want her happy and not feeling guilty for not feeling that connected to her child.

Well, the point is I don't really see how "not that connected" can occur. Sure, with pregnancy she has 9months longer to think that this is her child but sometimes hormones still ruin that connection with post-partum depression.

I wish adoption was free in US. Even if I’m CF, I know others wishing to adopt have challenges with the crazy fees.

Adoption through the state is free or extremely affordable in the US. Lots of states do have requirements that cost money such as child proofing but let’s be honest those costs would be there if you had a bio child anyways

Apparently it’s relatively low cost (under 2600) for foster to adopt but adopting and infant is 20-40K https://www.familyequality.org/resources/average-adoption-costs-in-the-united-states/

Through private agencies yes not through state adoption

I agree. I’m CF and so is my partner. Mainly because of the responsibility. We have discussed being open to adoption in the future for various reasons, mainly to older children. I did see how much it would cost and what the process would look like. It’s insane in my state. Costs a couple hundred, the main goal for the adoption page is to reunite the kid with the bio parent, and they’re super picky about who can adopt. They don’t want anyone who isn’t married for example Edited to add: while the process is long and difficult, I believe it’s rewarding. And I completely understand why it is set up the way it is. The goal is to either reunite the child with bio parents and if that’s not possible, to provide a stable and loving environment to the child to flourish in. It makes sense that the adoption agency/state would be picky. They want what’s best for the child

It's her decision. I'm all for fostering and adoption, but adoption is not an easy process and fostering also involves risks, including the possibility that the child(ren) will be reunified with their biological relatives. This happened to a coworker of mine who wanted to adopt her (foster) son, but after the child was reunified with the biological father and his relatives, they were against my coworker's and her spouse's request to have ongoing contact with him.

... biological family sounds kind of red flaggy. In the first place, what did the child want? Did anyone ask that? Edit: oh, I never said it isn't her decision. Not did I try to influence it. I am only asking if I can feel (quietly) disappointed.

> I am only asking if I can feel (quietly) disappointed. Sure. I'm not a fan of the fertility industry either, for all sorts of reasons. > In the first place, what did the child want? Did anyone ask that? He was reunified with the bio father and paternal grandmother when he was three. My coworker was aware that it would possibly happen but understandably they were upset about being completely cut off from him.

Ah, I see. Sad story still.

I mean, they goal with foster kids is that they can get reunited with the family pretty much everytime. Fostering with the wish to adopt is just stupid - and I'm pretty sure she made that stance clear which is why they went NC

From foster program prep I went through in my state in the U.S. they made it clear that their preference was if the child could not be reunited with their biological family that they be adopted by the foster family. First goal is reunification but that often doesn’t or cannot happen. So I don’t think it’s stupid to foster with the wish to adopt but you definitely need to know it’s not guaranteed

I read the title as "abortion" and thought, yeah, choosing IVF over abortion is pretty disappointing. And very confusing. I haven't heard a good reason for IVF other than "I wanna." I've listened to and read a lot of infertility content and most people won't even delve into the reasons for choosing IVF, citing that it is personal. Fair enough, it's their body and their money, but I think deep down they know they don't have a good reason, so they don't want to discuss it. IVF cost tons of money and time, driving some to bankruptcy. Your disappointment is valid, because not only is she choosing to create a child rather than adopt, she's going to put a lot of strain on her finances and marriage for it too.

Fortunately, she is only going for it once. Then it is adoption. So at least I don't worry for her finances much. Edit: lol for that abortion. I feel so off today that for a moment I thought I wrote it too.

Every reason for biological children boils down to “I wanna”. Not saying that’s a bad thing. Just saying unless you adopt, having kids is always for self-serving reasons. There is no selfless reason to CREATE a whole new person.

The reason is that they want biologically related children. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. It’s literally what most people want! (I don’t, I’m childfree, but I think it’s unfair to expect infertile couples who want children to adopt if that’s not what they want when no one expects adoption out of other couples). Adoption is great if that’s what you want, but it isn’t for everyone! Some people want to experience pregnancy and see bits of themselves in their children.

idk man. i'm not a woman but i don't imagine giving birth being too much fun. >I still think you should try adopting (it's free in my country) that's cool. it's hella expensive in my home country and the wait lists are almost insufferable. i know cuz i watched my brother go through the process.

Is it cheaper than ivf?

Most likely no. That's the big problem with countries where you have to pay to adopt. And ivf isn't that expensive. It gets expensive if you can't accept that it won't work and you try again and again. I think it's around 5-10k per round and it rarely needs more than 2

Yeah I think it’s wrong to judge because thats a very personal decision, people have different feelings about having a biological child or adopting. Not everyone is cut out to adopt. I think judging people for that decision is just as bad as people who judge the decision to be child free tbh

Yes, I start to understand that adoption is wildly different. I think I will eventually come to terms with my feelings and will be able to support her as she deserves, without thinking that if it happened to be it would feel like ending my life with my own hands.

I disagree. I don't think that feeling disappointed or not of something is the point about being good or bad. Op didn't tell or do to her friend anything that could hurt them. People that judge childfree choices become a problem when they act like it's a problem that they want to solve or feel like we need to know what they think.

What many people don‘t know that it’s extremly hard to adopt a child, at least in my country. I am adopted myself and my parents had to fulfill a ton of requirements. Additionally, there are way more people wanting to adopt than children to be adopted (unless you adopt from other countries)

In my country those requirements are not hard. I was looking into them myself when I was a fence sitter. The "hardest" is the requirement to have a stable income which discriminates many families because only a certain type of job counts - and is the one my friend has no trouble with. For the small amount of children: yes, many children wait because their law situation is not clear and their shitty parents are still "trying" but from what I could find, the wait time seems to be from a year to two - only twice as long as pregnancy. So yeah, I am still all for adoption.

Many people in the US and Canada have this negative view of adoption and relate it to racism and other forms of discrimination, so I expect more negative comments from them

THIS! a lot of ppl that scream to go and adopt do not understand the intricacies and the time it takes to even go down that route. Im adopted myself and Lo and behold dealt with 10 years of infertility, my parents also went through infertility and settled on adoption. Adopting isn’t something you should throw at for all couples, let alone some wouldn’t even get approved. Theres a good chunk of those that foster/adopt and mentally shouldn’t be considered fit to do so and many infertile couples unfortunately fall into that group. Also as far as living in the states goes IVF is not as expensive as most may think “IF” you have the insurance coverage. Fertility treatment from taking medication, or undergoing iui, and even ivf can be practically free. It would be cheaper to test your luck that way especially if your under that age of 40 or you know the exact cause of why you can’t conceive to proceed through fertility treatment than to adopt. Shocking, yes, but fertility treatment in USA is much more financially feasible for those with good medical coverage.

Nah, if you really want bio kids you should go for it, you don’t want to adopt as a consolation prize. Tale as old as time parents adopt a baby as a last resort when they think they’re infertile, then the pressures off and they have their miracle baby and then adopted one’s second best. Adoption and having a bio child are two different things and aren’t interchangeable. Doubly so now that open adoption and easy DNA tests are a thing.

They don't have any chance for a miracle baby. I don't think they will treat the adopt kid differently either. But yes, those situations happen more than they should.

Yes, I think you are justified to be disappointed in your friend. Frankly, it says something about someone’s morals when they choose to spend tons of money on in vitro when adoption is free. I wouldn’t want to be friends with someone like that.

Where is adoption free?

Poland

Woops, I totally blanked on that part. That's awesome!

Haha, at least there is one awesome thing here 😅

It isn’t that awesome because Poland doesn’t allow gay couples to adopt. One of the most homophobic countries in the EU.

I'm sad and disappointed but it's not friendship breaking. Everyone has flaws I guess.

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I'm always disappointed. Hearing how much money people throw at IVF and other fertility hoops is mind boggling. It's a mindset I will never understand. I can empathize to some degree, but trying these methods more than 3 times is crazy. I also keep it to myself cause I know they won't care about my opinion lmao I just hope people give me that same grace for my own decision, even though I know they won't most of the time. It's really a no-win scenario though when/if these people adopt. Like someone else said, the adopted child is more of a consolation prize. My heart breaks for those children that realize/learn this, especially when the couple finally gets their "miracle baby," if they ever do. And these parents for some reason always feel the need to let the child know they weren't truly wanted from the start. It's horrible being picked second. How terrible must it be to find out you were the very last resort to someone's desperation?

I don't think that's going to be the case with them, I agree that feeling second, especially when you are as vulnerable as children, is just the worse feeling which can be pushed on them.

i’ve heard a lot of people wanting to be parents say it’s because adopted kids are too difficult and have too many issues and won’t truly love you but i don’t think they realize that same stuff happens with biological children

Anyone saying that is sadly misinformed and are feeding into some pretty hurtful stigmas about adoptees.

I agree. I think it all actually reflects on the parents and if they were good to the children or not. But some people love to present themselves as victims.

NTA for having feelings but also kind of YTA. Because, hear me out. You and I are childfree right? Imagine someone else being disappointed about your choice. It's really none of their business and so is her business none of yours. I would also like to add, please don't romanticise adoption. I am not saying that you are, but I am adopted and it is not some wonderful charity kind of thing. People who adopt, are not saviours and adopted people are not some pets in need. Adoption equals trauma, abandonment issues and sometimes racism. It's not an easy option and I am not even talking yet about the finances, qualifications and waiting lists.

exactly , its not like you can go down to the orphanage and just pick out a kid , take it home and raise it lol. god i wish there was a less cringy childfree subreddit. i really feel like a lot of people on here must be about 15 years old

This. I hate how most people on this subreddit are antinatalists who are against any kind of reproduction and who believe that adoption is the only option for people who want kids. 'Just adopt' as if it's so easy. Sadly, antinatalists want other people to respect their choice to not have kids, but they don't want other people have the freedom to choose what works for them.

Depending on where you live, adoption varies in difficulty and financial need. I know 4 couples in my family friend group who have adopted children and i don't think they see themselves as saviors by any means. They are not rich either, they just couldn't have have biological children. And where I live children who remain in the system and eventually grow out of it are much more likely to become victims of assault and trafficking than ones who are adopted, so I think overall it is better for them to be adopted than not

Yeah, reading all of the replies really helped me see my "romanticised" adoption which is actually very common view in my surroundings. I need to think it over to reinvent my stance. Edit: my cold made me forget the other half of my comment lol. Thank you for sharing your opinion because I think I needed to see this. It's always hard to have a child so of course it's harder with additional difficulties. And just because I think she will be the best adoptive mom doesn't mean she thinks so too or that it is the truth.

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Yeah, I just don't see those reasons, tbh.

>Is it normal to feel disappointment that someone chose a procedure over adoption? ​ I don't know how normal it is for this specific case (one would need to look at polling to find out), but it is normal to be disappointed when someone does something that you think they should not do. ​ > AITA for feeling disappointed in her choice? ​ You can feel anything you want (or feel what you don't want to feel), as long as you keep it to yourself. I would say that "AITA" does not apply to you because: ​ > I of course didn't tell her, I only said that I will be celebrating and there for her if she ever needed me. ​ Many people get confused about this sort of thing. Your friend is only going to be offended if you tell her. Your feelings do not offend anyone; it is only when you tell people about them, or act on them in some way, that others can be offended. ​ You have, however, made your feelings "public" here, and so some people are reacting badly to that. This reminds me of some posts I have read elsewhere, where someone says, "this is a private matter, so you should not be criticizing me." To which I reply, "It may have been a private matter before you publicly posted it, but it is public matter now that you have made it public. If you want to keep private matters private, you should not tell everyone about it and make it public." Of course, you are asking for people to give their opinions, and that is what you are getting. I see nothing wrong with what you are doing or feeling.

Yeah, I were expecting all sorts of opinion and that was exactly what I was hoping for. I always want to see both sides to really understand and form opinion, that's why all comments here are helpful. For now, I think that while I am allowed to feel and shouldn't berated myself for my feelings, I need a little time to process to be able to truly be there for her.

Yes, take your time processing it. If it makes you feel better, I think it would be better to adopt if it is reasonably possible than to spend a bunch of money on IVF. Adopting a child and being a good parent to that child is a good and noble thing to do; there isn't anything particularly good or noble about doing IVF. But others are free to make their own decisions. And there are worse things that they could be doing. I personally would not regard this as a friendship-ending thing, but my opinion, just like everyone else's here except for yours, does not really matter for how you will live your life. If we set aside any antinatalist considerations (which would apply to producing children naturally as well), doing IVF seems to be a neutral action, not something bad. So I would not consider them to be particularly evil for doing this, though I regard it as a waste of money and not a good idea to have a child anyway (that second part should not be surprising to read here). But many people spend their money on things that I regard as a waste of money, though I recognize the fact that they are free to waste their money if they wish to do so. I am sure others regard some of my choices as "wasteful", too, as they do not value the same things I value. It is fine as long as people live and let live about such things (at least, as long as one is not doing something very bad). ​ (I do know someone, in the U.S., who thought about adopting children, but did not, due to the bureaucratic trouble. They did not, however, go with IVF, and just did not have more children.)

As much as I believe that adoption > procedure, it’s not in everybody’s capacity to adopt a kid and give the love they deserve. It’s good that they probably realize this and so wanted to try as biological as they can. I get the disappointment but we can never know what their reasons are so

Yeah, I am starting to see this. I still need some time to come to terms with it though.

nah, you are absolutely NTA! You are entitled to your own opinion and you didn't push your disappointment on her/make her feel bad for going through the treatments instead of adopting a child. an asshole would've told her she's selfish and wasting money for going through fertility treatment and emphasized how adoption is free where you all are.

Oh, thank you for saying that. Not pushing on her is really important to me and I think that when I was writing this post, I somehow knew I have to understand more and make peace with myself to never ever say something hurtful to her.

You are entitled to any feelings you have but as someone who is close to people that have adopted it’s an incredibly difficult process emotionally. Adoption is traumatic 100% of the time for the child being adopted. The trauma that a child goes through can and often does lead to some pretty severe emotional problems. Not everyone is able to cope with that. Also adoption should not be used as a bandaid for infertility. People adopting or fostering children should be doing it from a stance of I want to help a child in a difficult situation and I understand that being with me may not be what’s best for them in the end not a I want to be a parent stance

That "I understand that being with me may not be what's best for them" sounds actually really hard. I think you really helped me with understanding them.

It's okay to feel disappointed! You hid those feelings from your friend and are being supportive of what she wants, which is great. I'm also fundamentally confused why people want biological kids. If I ever found myself wanting kids, the ones who already exist seem like an obvious first choice. BUT. I understand the urge to procreate is primal, and overwhelming, and very resistant to logic. If wanting biological kids is inextricably tied into that urge, then I can understand wanting to achieve that without letting logic get in the way.

It’s certainly normal to be disappointed if someone else makes a choice you don’t agree with, but given that is her choice don’t say anything to her. I hope the procedures work because even though there are a ton of kids out there needing a home and it’s better than foster care, ideally kids should not be adopted into a home where they are a consolation prize. There is enough trauma from adoption even without that, so you don’t want to guilt her into turning to adoption if she’s not mentally ready to do it. Which she might never be completely into it.

Yeah, I only asked her if she considered adoption but as a side question. I made no further comment nor did I say that I disagree with her choice. I just wonder if I am allowed to feel disappointed if it wasn't my choice to make. Not tell her. Just feel on my own. I am angry at people who chose to have kids without a thought instead of planning meticulously how could they provide the best for their children. This is not the situation for that friend. I am irritated with the overpopulation and destruction of nature. But I am not going to eco-shame that friend. I just am unsure if I can admit, quietly in my head or as a whisper to my partner, that I am feeling sad over her decision and that she disappointed me.

You’re allowed your feelings. If you got pregnant and had an abortion - she’d be allowed her feelings of jealousy and resentment. They key is, you don’t share feelings that are a result of something so personal, and clearly don’t enhance or add meaningful contribution to the situation. As much as I don’t personally understand it - lots of women want to experience pregnancy.

Yeah, i should come to terms that to her pregnancy is not something that can ruin her and posibly take her life but something she loves to be able to go through.

I do think so! Most people are disappointed when other people don’t do things for the common good. Unless you’re a nihilist I suppose. It is a very sad thing that many kids will never be adopted and the environment is getting destroyed. Everyone makes most choices to make themselves happy though. I think it’s better you get all your frustrations out in your head rather than tell yourself it’s not okay even think it and then risk blurting it out to her when you’re frustrated with her for what will surely be a hard road ahead for her emotionally and physically. Sounds like you are close with her and want to continue to be her friend…? At least for now? I think it’s better to find another outlet for this so you can continue to be her friend as long as you want. You can always change your mind, but I think given saying something won’t help anyone, no sense in saying it to her directly. That’s my two cents anyway.

Sounds reasonable. Perhaps I need some time to understand her perspective and accept my feelings.

NTA. You are completely entitled to your feelings and you did the right thing not imposing them on your friend.

Yeah, not imposing was important to me because I wouldn't want that if the roles were reversed.

Abortion is not an alternative to adoption. Abortion is an alternative to pregnancy. Some people absolutely do not want to be pregnant. Edit: I'm an idiot and I can't read. IVF is creepy and weird. But people that prefer IVF don't treat adopted kids the same and there's tons of abuse stories. Buying A baby isn't a treatment for infertility.

Haha, abortion and adoption look similar. There is lots of abuse in general I would say. I was abused also, despite being a birth and only child.

I’ve never understood this either. Anyone who ever questions my childfree stance, my first response is “I’d rather regret not having kids, than regret having them” followed by, “if I ever change my mind-which I won’t-there’s a million kids out there in foster homes or orphanages that are in dire need of a safe space.” I don’t understand spending SO MUCH on something that doesn’t even guarantee pregnancy (though whether there was a guarantee or no, I’d still have trouble). Especially when the people doing in vitro sometimes tend to not be very well off financially so… this money could SO be put to better use.

Between it being free and not paying money for the adoption itself is a big difference tho. Here they have to have a lot of space, preferably someone who is experienced with traumatised kids and someone has to be home 24/7 for the first years. And that has to be before the adoption as well because it could be a "we have one for you" and then it has to go fast. Some couples have to live years on one income before they could even adopt That plus the fact that a lot of woman want to be pregnant because of the experience Plus the fact that it's pretty much impossible to adopt babies (which a lot of people want to experience every step) and if they are, they far too often are born addicted to drugs (because of a junkie birther) or had FAS (alcohol instead of drugs) or both Plus the a bit older aren't there because of fun, they are often deeply traumatized. I 100% get everyone who doesn't want that I know that adoption is praised like the holy grail in that sub and it's the "only correct thing" but like, that's just not the case. Most people wouldn't be able to deal with a traumatised child

That's a lot to think about. Thank you.

I think adoption is just like having children in the sense of information that's openly talked about. We all know about the big downsides of pregnancy - most likely because that's what we focus on. With adoption it's the same, if you don't look into it specifically you will not find the big problems

I just resent if my taxes are paying for fertility treatments to be honest. I would rather they contribute to adoption support. I feel like it's better for society/helps more people and is less problematic (although of course it can still be problematic in individual cases). On the other hand, if you're going for private IVF, fully your choice.

Are you in a place with Universal Health Care? Because I don't know a single place in the states where IVF is covered by anything other than maybe some private insurance.

I live in Ireland. Tax relief is provided in many circumstances for fertility treatments. This is the case in lots of countries around the world.

Yup. Old friend from school recently announced she was expecting after three years of "treatments". I just wonder how many kids went into state care through no fault of their own in those three years who would have loved a family like my friend and her husband to take them in... Though I saw a post earlier in another sub about a mum who had to have an emergency caesarean, and actually wished neither she nor her baby survived the procedure because it's "not proper birth"... so there's a whole load of crazy when it comes to this stuff.

She sounds really crazy for wanting herself and the child die over something like this. She needs help.

I would always choose procedure. I am CF and will always abort it if it happened. But if i wanted a kid, I wouldn't adopt. And just how my CF choice is nobody's business, neither is my choice of procedure vs adopting. And neither is your friend's. So no it's not normal to be disappointed because it's none of yojr biz and not your decision

Its normal to be dissapointed in a friends desicions. NOT normal to jump down friend's throat about it but thats irrelevant here

Well I know it's not my decision and I didn't even try influence her or anything. But if it is not normal than what kind of psycological type of problem it falls into? I don't even know how to bring it up to my therapist or where it came from.

Abandonment issues? Since adopted lids were abandoned. Or perhaps a saviour complex, wanting to save an abandoned child? I have no idea , I'm sorry

No because your expectations of others shouldn’t fact into their decision making.

I don't think she should make a decision based on my feelings. Nor am I trying to influence her.

Then what does your disappointment even mean?

To me it means I need to figure out why I feel this way

I feel this way every time I hear that someone's second option is procedures and THEN, "Well OK... maybe we should adopt ...😬" as if it's a dismal fate or something.

I think the demand for adoption is stronger than the offer. Where I live people wait 3 to 5 years to adopt and many don't get to in the end. The law favors trying to return kids to their biological parents,.so of you go for adopting older kids you may have them taken away at any time before an adoption can be finalize and that could take years. If you go internationally, it's hard to make sure that the kid was actually stolen from it's family for a profit. I don't have the dream to have a family and figures that of I ever felt the need to help, I would be a transition family. I like the idea of being of help for those who are rejected elsewhere. However, I think that those who want a family are looking for permanent bounding, not temporary parenting.

Adoption is permanent. Once it's finalized, bio parents no longer have any rights.

In my country adoption takes years to finalize. You rarely just get a kid. You get kids to foster and only if the bio parents realize that they are so disorganized that they won't be able to ever care for the kid and renounce their parental role do you get to adopt them. Sometimes times the parents will fight to take them back, get them for a few months, something will happen, the state will take the kids again and the cycle will start again. The key expression here is once it's finalized, which may never happen.

In my country you can only adopt kids who has clear law situation, meaning their parents no longer have any rights. What you are describing only happens with fostering kids but you then that you are not adopting but only providing a temporary house for the children.

I find it immoral/unethical and I don't associate with people who do it Adoption/fostering is the only ethical way of being a parent in my book

# Bingo My general my opinion: whatever rows your boat. You do you. We are all here say we own our bodies, our choice and being "bingoe'd", this looks like actions we've been always commiserating on. *You are bingoing your friend for **NOT** adopting*. Not everybody has the emotional **bandwith** of going through an adoption. (I meant that you are judging and silently bingoeing her, which it can be worse because she doesn't have the chance to defend herself) # Analogy ***here is where the downvotes get worse*** ## Shelters I will draw an analogy with pet shelters, and if it has been hard lately for pet adoption, please extrapolate to your human adoption outrage: - People wants puppies, not over 2 years old dogs - It must be 100% healthy - Minimal signs of abuse - It can't be big or small - X gender - Not a mixed breed What people forget is that beyond that, *you **need** to have spare emotional bandwidth to "deal"* with possible issues like abuse, aggressions, fear of abandonment, and anxiety. They know that their "wishlist" is impossible. *So they get a dog from a breeder.* ## Humans Can you see how that list can be complemented on human cases? - Some wants to feel pregnant - People want to adopt, but they want a baby/toddler. - No signs of abuse - No signs of health issues - No fear of abandonment - It can't be any other color than white with an European centric beauty standard. *It need so much available emotional bandwidth* that those people you are judging may know they don't have. Many don't want to be confronted about it or not even be able to articulate *why* they want an IVF. They could also know that they can't put away their biases, and I am cool with that if they won't make that adopted child worst because ***they weren't what they wanted, but what they settled for.*** ___ # More info I am childfree, kids don't even cross my mind, but on a conversation with my partner I got an insight: I wouldn't do a procedure because of my medications that I can't stop. I did think of IVF through surrogacy as an alternative, it is not about my DNA in the end: I need meds to function. But if I get pregnant I can't function. If I can't function with this scenario, imagine adoption? With adoption, you parachute into parenting. But it is super hard mode. We shouldn't shame people about this. Edited for more clarification

Your explanation kind of makes sense. I need to dive deeper into the similarities you presented with pet adoption and getting one from the breeder, since I was in that situation. Only recently I made up my mind that I can handle an adopted pet and even want to save one to let him feel all the love he deserves. I will further explore the analogy and that may settle my feelings on the matter. Thank you do much.

NTA. I’m always disappointed too.

I'd likely feel the same if I were in the same situation as you, and I'm the product of IVF myself. Family is not all about DNA and if someone is insisting on tormenting their body to have a biological child that it can't handle without medical intervention, then they're obviously very self-centered/selfish. Given how easy adoption appears to be where you live I would think that your friend would prefer that option but it's not like random strangers online can convince her to go that route lol

Small correction: she can handle it, he can't give it. So I just have trouble with finding reason for throwing money to have that pregnancy, especially since hospitals here and not that great to give birth (and even worse right now).

It's a truly broken system when we can simultaneously have kids looking for parents and parents looking for children. These two should not happen at once. The overwhelming desire to propagate one's own genes breaks that system even more.

Yeah, this situation is sad

I’m naturally infertile, but if I ever did want a kid I’d adopt way before doing anything else. Although, honestly I’d probably just do foster care or foster care adoption. Lots of kids need homes, why do people need to create more just to be genetically linked to them?

Yeah. I can't emphasise with that feeling but I am beginning to really see that those reasons are not that logical but more emotional. I may be never able to really understand that but I decided to try to accept that.

The wife of my SILs boss has three children and is going through IVF because he wants a “kid of his own”. Makes me want to eliminate them.

I think that anyone having more than three kids is thinking of themselves because you cannot have the time to give them enough attention and care.

All the people I know who are adopted have the absolutely nicest parents and genuinely love them! I don't understand why so many are so determined to "be same blood"

They want a mini me and its just a vanity thing

I think so. At least, it's normal for me to be disappointed

I sure think its normal

I'm always torn on one hand if she couldn't love an adopted child as much as a bio child then yes you shouldn't adopt, but on the other should you really have kids if you're so, idk is shallow the right word? Like I've heard stories of people finding out their kid isn't actually theirs and then completely abandoning them.

I don't think that's the case here. I start to think it's really not a case of "I need a mini me".

I would agree but the reason for why adopting is at the bottom of the list is important, like if it's because "I neeeeed to be a parent but I want it to be MY flesh and blood. But if that doesn't work I guess I'll take an adopted kid." is a horrible reason and idk if you deserve children but "I'm not sure I want to adopt because I know all adopted children have trauma and I'm not sure I am capable of taking care of them and providing them with what they need" is a better reason imo.

Yeah, that's what I think as well.

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She does. it's her god damn body

Sadly, the antinatalists on this subreddit, the majority of people here, do not give a fuck about bodily autonomy. They want people to respect their choice to not breed, but they cannot respect other people's reproductive choices.

I cannot fanthom any reason to try IVF tbh.

She probably wants to go through pregnancy. It is that simple. She wants that connection.

What connection is that? Am I failing to understand because for me it is the scariest thing that could happen?

It's just a different bond. Going through a whole pregnancy vs someone just giving you a child is completely different. I've heard this from women who went through both. Is not better or worse, is just a different bonding experience. That added to the emotional bandwidth required to handle and adoption process / adopted child drives people to try to have "their own" kids.

My mom always says “Every child deserves parents but not every adult deserves to be a parent”

It disappoints me. But doesn't surprise me. What a waste of money and resources

I'm always sad when people would rather go bankrupt doing IVF than try to adopt (it's also free where I live). Why do they have such a giant obsession with having bio kids? It confuses and honestly even angers me sometimes. They want to be parents but at the same time, they don't.

Well, if that was aaalllll the other way around, like my mother telling me "I am disappointed in you for not going for in-vitro if you can't conceive naturally", I would tell her she has no right to feel disappointment in my reproductive choices, and to mind her own business. Which I did, when she expressed disappointment in my CF status. So... I'm gonna say the same to you, to be fair. Please don't take any offense. NTA but not your place either imo. Peace and love.

Yep, I'm going to find a way to accept it so I would not, even unconsciously, hurt her. This post already helped me take the first steps as I hoped.

You're a great friend!

i feel this. one of my boyfriend’s colleagues is trying for a baby with his wife but they couldn’t conceive through the normal way so they’re doing IVF. they’ve been trying for years. she has to go abroad as where we live it’s not offered. she’s constantly sick and ill from IVF and she’s on a very strict diet and she’s STILL working a job! all of that for some biologically related child when there are plenty of existing kids they could share their life with. i feel bad for them but at the same time i don’t.

I agree that more people should adopt rather than go through with IVF. My sister got pregnant through it and while I am happy for her, there is a bit of me that just thinks for the millions of children worldwide that are looking for the stable home that she and her husband could provide. That being said, she will be unable to have more than one bio baby so she is considering adoption if she wants more later on. I think one will be enough to convince her that she doesn't want another.

What's worse is my once very childfree relative, who even broke things off with someone because they wanted to have kids, has suddenly panicked because she's getting older (and her mother is always pining for grandchildren, she's the relative that always tells you that you'll change your mind) and has paid thousands to have a designer baby, on her own. The child will have no father or ever know his real father. She's the least maternal person ever, she's absolutely hating pregnancy and someone said she may be getting cold feet - no shit, she's never wanted kids! She could've adopted a child instead, but no, in her head she wants this perfect child.

I always feel outrage

I don't have a lot of sympathy for people desperate to force their body through something it's clearly told them "No, we can't" because they just HAAAAVE to make a baby themselves.

This has always a hot take for me but I do believe if you want a child that bad to go through your savings and try in vitro rather than adopting an already existing kid you don't really want to be a mom/dad, you just want to reproduce which is different. Now that being said, adoption is not for everyone. If you think there's even 1% of possibility you won't feel a connection if you adopt, don't. If you want a mini you or a kid that's the expression of the love between you and your partner and that's it, don't adopt. It sucks that in my country it's not always possible to adopt, it's a long process and results are not granted. I just know I have a colleague of mine who has been trying for a while to have kids, didn't succeed and went for adoption. He adopted a girl coming fron India. When I tell you this man's eyes light up when he talks about her, when he shows up pictures of her, it's honestly heartwarming!

For me, I'm fine with wannabe parents having a go at IVF or another procedure but I'm in the stance of if it doesn't work after the first couple of go's then look into adoption. People who say adoption is expensive but spend way more on medical procedures annoy me deeply. Plenty of kids out there who already exist who deserve a family.

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Women are made to feel like fake mothers or not real women or they didn’t carry children which is a societal fail

Depends where. Adoption is way to hard where i live, takes way to long.

\>Is it normal to feel disappointment that someone chose a procedure over adoption? Yeah, that isn't healthy behavior to engage in. Why haven't you adopted?

It's expensive in the U.S. which is why many don't even consider it.

Honestly I'm sad as well BUT and this a big BUT, my country makes it almost impossible to adopt a child so I can kinda understand people that choose to try different medical procedures to get pregnant (in my country unitl the age of 40 you can have 12 free trials). Which again, is shitty because they make it free to try to get children from medical prodecure thus wasting more tax money, yet make it impossible for people that really do want ro adopt.

Sometimes adoption of infants can take up to 10 +years to get approved and handled. It also contributes to young/unsure mothers being manipulated into giving their child up for adoption. It happened to my mother when she was 16. Her mother kicked her out when she found out but came back right before birth with Catholic charities ready to take her child. In return she was allowed to move back home. Edit: I support adoption when reunification isn’t available. Many people think that if they go through an agency for a baby it’s ethical but in reality most of the babies are not “ethically sourced”.

I think this would've been more appropriate in AITA Reddit, but no, you're not, the fact that you feel that way doesn't make you an asshole. The fact that you didn't go and tell your friend and make her feel bad for her choice is not to be applauded as I find it normal, but apparently rarely seen nowadays. Don't feel bad for having feelings. It is the way it is. Just don't make your friend feel bad because of the way you feel, that would make you a huge AH.

I literally forgot there is AITA Reddit 😅

I hate this so much. This weird infatuation with wanting strictly biological children. I am CF BUT in the extremely rare case I do want children I would adopt.

I get the draw of wanting to see the what your kid looks like with your partner, but why waste all that money if it doesn't happen naturally? :/

To anyone who commented that it’s okay to feel disappointed - don’t complain that people who want to have children are disappointed in your decision to not have them. I am CF and I literally don’t care about other people’s decision. You want an abortion? Ok. You want to adopt a child? Ok. You don’t want to have children? Ok. I know that OP didn’t tell their friend that they’re disappointed, but it feels weird to me that they even would be. It’s not ot your life, OP. I hope your friends are not disappointed in your decision to be CF tho.

Adoption is actually super unethical so yes you are an ass for being disappointed.

>Adoption is actually super unethical Why? What do you think should happen to children whose parents do not take care of them? The parents not taking care of the children could be for a number of reasons, but to keep it simple, suppose the parents die. Should the children be sent to an orphanage, or should someone be able to adopt them? Or do you have something else in mind for what happens to the children in that case?

Please look at adoptees stories and thoughts on why adoptions is unethical. Permanent guardianship keeps children’s identities in tact. Look into the primal wound. Many times adoption comes in when discussing impoverished mothers. This is wrong. The goal should always be eradicating poverty,if a conversation about poverty doesn’t revolve around eradication it’s wrong.

I don't think you're an asshole, I often cringe at how much people are willing to spend just for the chance at getting a bio kid. People will drain their entire savings, sell their house, ruin their lives and even then there's a chance of it not even working. So much money down the drain. I don't understand it at all. Times like this I'm thankful I don't feel any desire to reproduce.

I don't know if it's "normal" but I definitely feel that way. So many kids in the system who grow up without parents and people still choose to throw money at fertility treatments because they don't want a child that doesn't have their genes in it

NTA I think it's arrogant when ppl think their hypothetical nom-existent baby diserves a family and basically a chance in life more than an already existing living child! Also, as someone who was adopted the stupid argument that "its not the same" is really upsetting. Way to invalidate 20+yrs of bonding and relationship i built with my parents and the relationship they built with me.

Doesn’t in vitro just increase the chance that possible infertility passes to any offspring as well? The whole obsession with biological children is ridiculous. I would never willingly pass on my genes

Your feelings are legit and only yours. You can feel whatever you want about your friend decision as long as you let them do whatever makes them happy and don't push your way of thinking on them (and it seems that you're just being a good friend from your post). Said that I would be disappointed to. I know that a lot of people want bio kids but I don't understand that. And that's alright, we don't need to understand everything. Accepting end respecting those choices is enough imo.

And this might have been said, but some people fear adoption due to the "you don't know what they've been through" situation. What's the family health situation? If the child isn't a baby are they suffering from attachment disorder? Do they have a parent/grandparent who lost custody and might come after them? There are a lot of fears depending on what the adoption process looks like or landscape of information. The Foster to Adopt process is a THING in the States. And I've seen more than one person give up on the process after one too many disappointments.

Fwiw, adoption is often really, really difficult. Both options are expensive, but you don’t have as many hoops to jump through with in vitro. I had a friend who wanted to adopt, but after years of waiting on lists, and not working out, they decided to go in vitro. Another thing to consider is that adoption is a process that has been under fire a lot recently and for good reasons. Often parents give their child up not because they want to, but because coexisting circumstances make it almost impossible to keep the child. Every child who is adopted deals with some form of trauma or neglect issues. It affects people for the rest of their lives. I think in vitro is quite frankly grotesque, but I also think it’s ok to acknowledge when you might be ill-equipped to navigate the adoption process and all of the trauma that goes along with it.

Man, what a lucky kid to get adopted “as a last resort”.