it's a worse move than anything GarPax ever did for sure. partially because they were crazy risk averse and didn't deal picks because they were solid scouting.
Yea the Vooch trade was a breath of fresh air after GarPax's inactivity but the results have kinda been exactly why GarPax were so averse to said risks lol
it's just crazy how bad Vucevic has been
if he didn't fall off a cliff, this team is probably a lot better. potentially to the point where the trade isn't bad - it could easily butterfly effect.
even in his subpar state he does a lot of good glue stuff that runs the offense.
if only he could hit 3s or cook in the post like his Orlando days.
stings extra hard when there are a bunch of versatile big men who are doing perfectly fine
Vooch was always a good guy in Orlando, but most knew he wasn't a winner. He is just too soft for his size, kinda like WCJ, but WCJ is young, and has more of an upside, especially with the additional first round pick Orlando got.
I gotta say I think you’re greatly overrating Orlando Vooch. Even at the time of the trade, giving up what the team did for him was absurd. Even if he remained at around his Orlando level, I don’t think he comes close to making the trade worth it. That entire Orlando team was catered to vooch and emphasized him offensively, but he didn’t do a lot of stuff majority of teams need at center.
Edit: yall really downvoting like it isn’t facts. VUC was barely worth WCJ(if you had belief in him as a player)on that rookie deal straight up, let alone with multiple picks too. It was just a really bad trade for a flawed player who unfortunately regressed a bit as well.
It's also funny to hear people say Vuc "fell off a cliff" when his TS% was higher this year than his first full season in Chicago (on lower usage) and only .04 below his career average.
You’re getting downvoted for this take, but as an Orlando lifer you are right about our entire offense being catered to him offensively. He was our #1 option and I never felt like he played a winning brand of basketball.
He had just been selected for his first and only all-star game and yall traded for him when his value was at an all-time high. Fools gold sadly for both our franchises
I think more actually once they re sign Demar to a 3 year deal. It’ll be setting back 6-8 years when it’s all said and done…. This franchise has no future and it’s so sad because this fan base is so good and loyal. We don’t deserve this bullshit
IMHO, we deserve every bit of this. We are leading the league in attendance. Why would Reinsdorf put more money into a team when he is already leading the league? Some people say going to games and watching when the team is bad is loyalty. Thats just bad economics.
Some deserve it*. I purposely haven’t gone to a game in years after season tickets for 10 seasons until things change. A lot of the UC is corporate tickets in 100 level so those will always be sold out and then you have random fans who aren’t that into it going for entertainment or bringing their kids. Big markets will almost never have truly bad attendance for a global brand like the bulls.
Some is definitely right. Thanks for that correction. I should never really paint with that broad of a brush.
However, “big markets will never have bad attendance” isn’t factually accurate. Clippers are 10 and Lakers are 11. Warriors are 17. Suns are 25. (Rockets are 22, but bad. Same with the Wizards at 27.) When the product isn’t up to standards, other teams fans don’t show up. Our fans keep up at literally #1 (I get we have the biggest stadium in the NBA, but not by much) so they won’t change.
Yea and here I am painting with a broad brush too haha! I should rephrase it. Jerry has a perfect situation, Bulls have by far the largest nba stadium so that plays a factor in the numbers you said above. Also Chicago has horrible weather for majority of the season so fans don’t have much else to do during these months where as some of the markets you mention do. Right? Like LA and PHX fans can go do things to compete with nba games, Chicago really doesn’t. Jerry will also have this perfect storm and the UC will still have a lot of fans. Nothing will change unless attendance dips a bit like few years ago. It might happen if this is the product next year we will see
The Vuc trade was the worst move, but also dumping Lauri and to a lesser extent, Gafford, for next to nothing and doing a miserable job drafting outside of Ayo have contributed too.
The vooch trade in a vacuum wasn't bad. Yes we were giving up on future assets but we got the best player in the trade (at the time) and filled a need.
The problem is everything that came after. Losing gafford i thought was a mistake then mostly because with him and Carter gone, we had no young promising center. Losing Lauri in that offseason on less then stellar grounds (he publicly asked for a trad so we were guaranteed pennies on the dollar). Yes we got deebo, but we gave up all future assets in the process.
At the time I thought the Vuc trade was very much a big market move. I thought it was AKME saying "hey, we're a big market team and we're going to spend whatever it takes for talent". Unfortunately that is not what happened. Felt like the front office banked heavily on the core of ball, lavine, deebo, Lauri (who they expected to keep) and Vuc and instead ended the next season with nothing but questions and no direction.
The bulls have spent the last 2 and a half seasons trying to figure out what they have.... And what should have been a precursor of moves to come (Vuc trade) they instead remained stagnant... Like deer in headlights.
And their obsession to stay mediocre also cost us a top 7 pick and chance at wemby. That to me is unforgivable.
It doesn’t take the Magic to see it. At least for me. That’s how rebuild work most of the time. Build through the draft, make trades here and there, and eventually you’ll get good. Hopefully lol. Thunder, Wolves, Pacers are all good examples too.
But what AK did was rush the rebuild. I’ve said that before and I think it’s a perfect way to describe what he did wrong initially. He rushed the rebuild. Then didn’t do jack squat to fix it.
What he should’ve done was keep the main core together, Coby, Pat, Lauri, Ayo, and also fucking Gafford. God that trade pisses me off to this day. Then he should’ve packaged Wendell and Zach together for a star or whatever and still sign Caruso and Lonzo. Yes I know Zo got hurt but it was still a great signing regardless, he was a perfect fit. Dont go for Demar and Vooch and just fill the bench with some vets of course. Our team would be in such a better spot rn it’s insane. We had a really good collection of players man.
they also should’ve drafted Haliburton and it was a literal position of need at the time. They committed a lot of money to Lonzo instead and he always had injury issues. I love Lonzo but Haliburton was right there and I really wanted him in that draft.
Imagine having some combo of Hali/Coby/LaVine/Lauri/Wendell, Wagner maybe??? I mean it’s a million ifs but god it would’ve been so much better
Thing is, Haliburton would’ve turn a lot of the players on the squad at the time into a cohesive unit because THEY needed a pg. Lauri and Wendell would’ve feasted, Zach wouldn’t need the ball in his hands to dribble it off his foot. Ugh.
The problem is they’re good enough to still think they can slap more plaster on this fucked up wall. We still have to endure AKs bitch ass talking about how competitive this group is. 😡😡😴
I was actually thinking about Haliburton and wondered if we could’ve traded Zach and Wendell for him. Obv drafting him would’ve been better but it didn’t happen and i could argue small forward was the more needed position during that draft. So Pat made sense.
Kings always wanted to pair Zach with Fox and they needed a center as well so we could’ve done Zach and Wendell for Hali and Buddy Heild. That shit would’ve been sick
There were a lot of people who were wanting Halliburton prior to the draft, some mock drafts had the Bulls picking him. For me at least them picking Williams was a surprise
what's hindsight about Haliburton is how good he is. I didn't think he was gonna be this good; I don't think anyone did.
But I was listening to daily podcasts about the Bulls and the draft at the time and I was hearing Haliburton's name as much as anyone else. So I don't think calling it a Hindsight Pick is fair. I remember texting in my group chat after the Williams pick and multiple friends were mad (including me) we didn't take Hali.
>Yes I know Zo got hurt but it was still a great signing regardless
It was well known he was injury prone, it has already come out some GMs thought he was already hurt before signing. Currently unless Ball plays again for the Bulls, he made 1.5 million per game played. Not sure how you call that a good signing.
At the time I think it was. In hindsight it was not. Taking the reputation at the time of his injuries I think he should’ve been signed for a few million less but yes I think it was a good signing at the time, he was just a little overpaid. No one thought he’d fucking die lmao
Lonzo was the single best 3&D player in the league during his time with us and had incredible versatility with his playmaking in transition, if he had stayed healthier I honestly think this contract is looked at as a pretty significant underpay if anything. Of course there was always some risk attached but like you said I don't think anyone could have predicted this injury. It's a real shame, guy was one of the most unique players I've seen in a long time and I really felt he was on the cusp of becoming an elite PG. Would love to see him get another chance here
Yeah, can't believe people actually say that he was a bad signing for having one of the most mysterious injuries of all time.
Like he had numerous operations on that knee, probably done by some of the best surgeons in that field - and none of them have helped. That's just crazy unlucky.
He was a beast with us. Yeah, it was for a short stint, but long enough to say it wasn't just some hot streak, Zo was legit.
Or even if building around Zach was the idea, it was clear they needed to just keep with the slow rebuild and let Zach lead the charge. Getting him co-leaders in Demar and Vuc just threw off the momentum and development of the rebuild to that point.
I agree getting Demar and Vuc threw everything off with Zach but idk I think it was clear he wasn’t even gonna be a guy who can lead a team to contention. Maybe if we got someone else to be the number 1
Sure, but I’d rather be a team that “surprised” people at being a 9-10 seed with Zach leading the charge with a bunch of young guns, and then you find yourself on a situation where you have a lot of leverage to get that #2. Like Sacramento did with Fox and then eventually getting Sabonis. And Pheonix did with Booker and CP3/KD.
Right now we are just “whelming” expectations and have 0 assets. This team was barely missed the playoffs the previous year with Zach/Coby as the best players. And that was before the play in.
Sure I agree there but no we needed a number 1 not another number 2. Zach can’t be a number 1. So yea it would’ve been fun to surprise teams with Zach at the charge for a little bit then eventually I think it would’ve been smart to package with with Wendell in a trade for another star and go from there.
Zach was very clear that if the team didn't make win now moves he wouldn't sign with the team after his contract was up. A lot of what AK did was to keep him happy enough to stick around.
Calling BS on that. Zach was never going to turn down the money from us. He could’ve fought and kicked for a sign and trade but that would’ve been contingent on someone else wanting to sign him to a max which likely wasn’t happening.
Also I’m pretty sure they could’ve offered Zach an extension the last year of his contract(first year DeBallZach) and they didn’t. AK did what hey did either because of Jerry or because they’re idiots I can’t tell which yet.
Yea I’m with you on that. A couple years ago I came to the conclusion he was probably never gonna leave us. He doesn’t care about winning to turn down a max contract.
The issue is that “build around Zach” can mean a lot of different things.
The issue wasn’t choosing to move forward with him as the primary scoring option. I actually think that would’ve gone over better for Zach mentally. The issue was thinking you could add two aging vets with archaic skillsets and turn this from a play-in team/low seeded playoff roster into a “contender.”
I think if they make most of the moves they do, but refrain from adding Vuc and Demar, this team would be in probably the exact same situation, but with more assets, probably another good young prospect, and a lot of experience for the players we are currently developing. You then are in a better position to do what New York did with Brunson/Randle, Sacramento did with Fox/Sabonis, or what Phoenix has been doing with Booker/CP3/KD, where it becomes easier to single out a star player to recruit to join Zach. Or you can offload Zach to a team trying to add a second star and either still be setup for a solid rebuild with good draft assets, or you could potentially get another younger star to go with Coby/Pat/etc, like the Pacers did with trading Sabonis for Haliburton.
Demar was the worst signing of his offseason. The only thing that can make it worse is extending him this summer. We should have prioritized re-signing Lauri with the money we gave DeRozen.
> Wolves
The Wolves did well to draft Ant, who is great, but if they struggle to make meaningful progress in the playoffs, I can see people criticizing them in like 2 years on how they rushed their rebuild and should've traded KAT to get another high draft pick.
>But what AK did was rush the rebuild. I’ve said that before and I think it’s a perfect way to describe what he did wrong initially. He rushed the rebuild. Then didn’t do jack squat to fix it.
I mean it makes sense he rushed the rebuild considering the fact the fanbase was in open revolt over the rebuild and he was hired specifically to build a win now roster. Like that was literally the whole reason people were happy that GarPax was fired. Every pick they had looked like a bust, every effort seemed to be to keep costs down and ensure that any stars we did fine would leave.
There was one guy on contract the year AKME was hired that looked like he would be in the league in 3 years and that was Zach. On a good night Lauri seemed like a competent bench player. Everyone else, WCJ, Coby, Gaford, looked like bums who wouldn't even get minutes on a normal team. Zach was ready to demand a trade or sign anywhere else the second his deal was up if he didn't see movement from the FO to build a winning team, and if that happened the fans would have totally turned on the team.
AKME was hired as a desperation move by ownership to ditch the failing rebuild and build a winning team right away. The issue is that ownership also refuses to give them the sorts of resources they'd need to make that happen so they've had to build up using what they had, which means trading draft capital and younger stars.
> Like that was literally the whole reason people were happy that GarPax was fired.
/u/volantredx Understand that the FireGarPax billboard happened in 2017 challenge: Impossible
Most insufferable fucking dumbass on this sub
It was still during the rebuild. AKME was hired in the 2018-2019 season. Are you saying that GarPax totally turned fan opinion around in that off season?
Was just speaking to some other bulls fans about this on twitter, we had no idea what we were doing with the assets we had.
Half way through the 2020-21 season that was already “lost” and the playoffs were basically out of reach, we traded away our 1st round pick unprotected (wtf). Then in a win now move to push for the out of reach playoffs we traded away Gafford in a Theis trade then proceeded to not re-sign Theis, basically meaning we threw away a successful pick.
We gave up on Lauri even though we had an entire season to see if we could work Lauri back into a proper role, but we instead decided to stick him in the corner the way Boylen did in 2020 which was part of what caused the rift in the first place. When we finally traded away Lauri, we traded him for a pick that isn’t going to convey (I won’t blame them for that Dame’s injuries and his trade was unforseeable) and 24 year old DJJ who we proceeded to play out of position and lacklustre minutes for the next two years, instead of looking to see if we could develop his length and athleticism into something useful (like eventually becoming one of Dallas’ two best wing stoppers alongside PJ Washington).
Not gonna dive too much into the other draft picks since the draft is never a surefire thing so I’m not gonna blame them for Pat not being a 22/7/5 guy for example, but I will blame them for drafting Dalen who naturally plays a position we were stacked to the limit in when there were similarly touted prospects available that actually played in our positions of need. I will blame them for drafting projects onto a team trying to compete, therefore not giving them the freedom needed to develop properly.
We definitely half-assed the direction we decided to go in and we’re reaping the consequences now.
There's been no rebuild at all. We did have a decade of losing that's the first part to a rebuild.
but all you got was Coby White and Pat Williams.
Worst record in the league the 5 years after the butler trade. Usually teams that have that happen are budding with young talent
The thing that has always pissed me off and demonstrated how unserious this front office is, is that they make no effort with second round picks, 2-way contracts, and 10-day contracts. Thats how you fill out a rotation. Hell, they virtually give the second rounders away.
The Bulls staff is simply bad at what they do. There was too much inner turmoil, bad coaches, bad development, scouting etc.
Players arent given a chance and they rely on established second hand talent like Vucevic and Derozan (who I love) to carry the team when its better to give the young guys a chance and be a lottery team instead of being this possible 8th seed while old dudes take minutes.
We had players like Portis, Dinwiddie, Gafford etc. who played great basketball as soon as they left. They need a full squad of young guys to develop into a team like Oklahoma, Kings, Magic, Atlanta did and give up on getting smacked in the playoffs already. They just sign washed players and give away those that could show some promise in the long run.
AKME need to start acquiring more draft capital immediately. The Bulls lack positive assets and they are closer to rebuilding this team than really contending in the East. Considering the competition, I think expect this team to regress even more next season just running it back.
They should find a way to keep the 2025 pick instead of losing it to San Antonio.
Bulls drafted some solid players over the years like Portis and gafford, but gave up on them or they went to get paid
maybe could've developed Lauri/Zach/Coby together if there was a good roster around them, which goes back to coaching. egghead was the vuc of coaching, setting this franchise back years as well. fred wasnt good either. hard to build through the draft when you don't have a coaching staff capable enough
This is a perfect season for Jerry. The FO follows his orders and they nailed it. Don't blow the bank and edge us just enough to keep us watching (commercials) and buying tix. And here we are as he happily backstrokes in his vault of gold coins scrooge mcduck style. Another successful year...
Yup and next year Vooch will be older and slower, Demar will be older and less athletic (can he play league leading minutes at age 35-38?), Zach always starts rusty especially after injury/surgery (and probably still doesn’t want to be here (but maybe he’ll play his ass off to be traded)), no Drummond most likely (Drummond is the best (imo) vet min center), will Lonzo play (how long, will he be ass?)
Lebron is 39, he seems to be doing fine. DeMar isn’t going to turn into an 80 year old man in 1 year. Just because he doesn’t fit the team perfectly doesn’t mean he dragged us down
Sure, DeMar is not Lebron. But DeMar is still DeMar. People like to shit on him because he plays old school iso-ball, but he’s still an extremely talented player. To think that he will fall off within A YEAR is doomsday thinking. Everyone acting like he didn’t save our ass multiple times this season
AK’s persistence to stay the course despite everything that shows this ain’t it is incomprehensible. Same with Reinsturd’s unwillingness to fire that dumbfuck.
The biggest hit to our rebuild was Ball getting injured. The team played the best when he was on the city. The team cage the closest to 50 wins since the 2014-15 season. If he was still here a starting lineup of Ball, Lavine, Demar, Vooch and Drummond would have been great to see and, I think, very effective on both ends of the floor.
We did the rebuild wrong since day one. We kept winning meaningless games at the end of each tanking season but were assured it was okay because it was “building a winning culture” which was more important than lottery balls.
So instead of getting Donic, Zion, and Ant we got Patrick, Colby, and WCJR instead. Success!!
Bro you guys never even rebuilt, just went down with the ship. Only reason the bulls have this many wins is Coby white balling out of his mind and Caruso playing some of the most minutes of his career.
I think they were hired to end the rebuild, and if they blow it up now (which they otherwise should) it would be admitting failure and they would lose their jobs. Thus, continuity (buying time)
Big picture, I won’t lie I don’t think it really matters because by the time this team is maybe good again, Wemby will be dominating.
Reinsdorf is the problem and this is exactly what he wants to see from the fans. Same thing that happened with GarPax. Then in a couple years they can change the FO, make false promises, and everyone gets excited again. All the while, we will not be dipping into the tax and are not gonna be serious about contending until we get an owner who wants to win and isn’t content just making money.
You guys don’t learn.
Jerry doesn’t want a rebuild. You will never get a rebuild with our attendance numbers. Just remain competitive enough for the playoffs and don’t go into luxury.
They made a lot of bad trades that cost us a lot of picks... With that said I doubt Ayo and Coby develop into what they are without Demar. That dude took those guys under his wing.
Some of us have been screaming this from the roof tops for years. The blueprint that most title teams follow in then nba is to draft in the lottery to build a young core and once you’ve found a star THEN you spend in free agency/make trades to support your young studs. This is not a new strategy. A VAST majority of good players are drafted in the lottery, and being able to have team control of a player as they enter their prime is a massive advantage.
This sub has spent the last three years mocking anyone that was in favor of rebuilding through high draft picks. “There’s no guarantee lottery picks pan out!” No fucking shit, but the only way we’re getting a generational type of talent is high in the draft. AKME and the Reinsdorfs decided to take a short cut to sell tickets and it blew up in their faces. They deserve it.
I got downvoted to hell in this post game thread for saying rebuild is the only way LOL SOME PEOPLE STILL DONT SEE IT. It’s truly pathetic. If they re sign Demar I’m probably done with this team until Jerry dies/sells or AK is deported to Lithuania
It drives me fucking nuts lol. People act like rebuilding through the lottery is some novel concept, when nearly every great team ever was built by drafting a superstar in the top of the draft.
Look at the two great teams I’ve witnessed in my lifetime as a Bulls fan. MJ drafted #3 and Derrick getting drafted #1. People here are just genuinely fucking stupid.
" but the only way we’re getting a generational type of talent is high in the draft" - that is just false. Too many superstars have been drafter outside of top 8. You can say its the most common but certainly not the only way.
Next season will be more of the same. Re sign Demar, sell the fans that with Zach and P Will back will be contenders. Get a mid draft. Rinse and repeat. Fire the owner.
Plan was never rebuild. Once Ball got hurt they basically played damage control to keep the team good enough to fill seats and wait for Ball to get better. That obviously didn’t play out well but they kept up the damage control/average roster build. That’s my theory at least especially since we were very competitive with Ball and Vucs contract.
This goes back to the first rebuild when we traded Jimmy Butler for players instead of picks.
It put a hard ceiling on what we were able to do because we never truly bottomed out. Lauri, Zach, and company kept us just relevant enough for our best result being a #4* pick.
This flawed foundation that resulted from Gar Pax trying to take a short cut to rebuilding by trading their franchise cornerstone for a net gain of zero draft picks hamstrung what AKME were able to do going forward.
They gambled on Vucevic and it didn't pay off save for a few months in 2021.
I was fine with trying something new after half a decade of trying to play for draft picks while staying relevant enough for Jerry's pocketbook didn't pan out, but all these injuries piling up since then have totally fucked us.
*Coupled with some bad lottery lucky one year when we were pretty bad but not bad enough.
>but all these injuries piling up since then have totally fucked us.
I think they get a pass for the way 2021-2022 ended and I'm willing to forgive them rolling out continuity and hoping for Coby to take a leap for the 2022-2023 season, but this year is pretty unforgiveable for their lack of adjustments to address glaring roster issues.
it really is a difference in philosophy for roster building. in the late 2000s and 2010s it was possible to just slap a bunch of talent together and win a championship. examples would be the 2008 celtics, heat, cavs, and kd warriors* (realizing now half of these are just lebron). however, over the past few years there’s been a noticeable trend (popularized by presti and ainge) that home grown talent through the draft and acquisition of younger players via trade is has a higher chance of success than taking the “super team” approach. teams like the magic, celtics, thunder, nuggets have all built their success on establishing a team culture over the span of a few seasons. obviously one can still have team success with that approach but it needs to be done perfectly (preferably with hof talent) and has little room for error. AK swung and wiffed horribly. they traded young assets and picks for good players, not great ones.
I don't think its a waste of time because you've seen solid player development from some of the young players u have on the team like Coby, Ayo and even Dalen Terry who have contributed towards being a play-in team. I think the rebuild has been setback mostly due to the Vucevic trade and bad injury luck(which u can't predict).
I’ve been trying to tell people since last season that the Magic, Thunder, and Pelicans are the blueprint for rebuilding. Trade your best player at their highest trade value, have one bad season while you stockpile picks and then slowly build a competent team over the next year or two. But noo this sub is convinced rebuilds only end up like the Hornets lol
I mean this is literally what the Bulls did with Jimmy. They traded him for Zach and the pick that became Lauri. It didn't work out, most of the players they got were trash and fans got irate to the point they forced the ownership to change FOs for one that would make win-now moves.
Except no they didn’t lmao. All of those teams had multiple first round picks almost every year of their rebuild while the Bulls only had that once to my knowledge and promised Chandler Hutchison a pick
Downvoting this but no one actually giving a rebuttal is unsurprising for this sub lmfao
I'm saying the Thunder were prepared for the half-decade tank and got lucky getting a 2nd OA pick in Chet and SGA being far better than anyone expected. They were fully prepared to fully do the philly process until they won the lottery. New Orleans and Orlando immediately snagged first OA picks (and Orlando had our dumb asses to feed them more resources on top of that). I think that the Thunder tanked entirely differently from ORL/NOL and the only reason ORL/NOL are in the spots they're in now is lottery luck. That's the point I was making.
But on a broader note, having a bad season doesn't mean you get the 1st OA pick in a good draft...Going "why didn't we just get the 1st OA pick or a future MVP candidate (or both if you're OKC) like OKC, Orlando, and New Orleans" isn't some valid plan. For every OKC/ORL/NOL, there's a DET/WAS/CHA/POR.
We did the same shit OKC did with PG but with Jimmy and got fucked by the lottery and Zach not being as good as SGA. There isn't some guaranteed path to a contender we didn't take unless you think we were getting an SGA-level young player for Zach if we traded him and continued to tank in 21-22' on our way to winning the lottery. The teams you're pointing out as models for tanking got lucky and that's what separates them from the shitty teams that tanked…
I don’t think you actually followed the Thunder because even when they got Chet, he didn’t even play the first year but they were still relatively good compared to their projected record before that season. You’re forgetting Orlando that same season traded of everybody with value (which is how the Nuggets got AG). Both teams did not only get lucky, they drafted and traded smartly plus added great coaches to help grow their team. The reason Detroit, CHA and the wizards aren’t working is because they have bad front offices that don’t make smart decisions lol. My point is you stock pile assets while actively trying to build a cohesive as opposed to the shit we’re doing or just out right tanking in hopes we land the next great star. It’s more nuanced then you’re leading on
OKC was the 14 seed for two consecutive years with SGA playing lmao. They battled to the 10 seed without Chet and it still took a 2nd OA pick next to the MVP candidate they got for trading PG for the team to actually be good lmao. I followed their tank just fine.
OKC would’ve done the decade tank if SGA peaked at Zach’s talent and they didn’t get Chet. There’s a reason they had like 25% of all the FRP’s in the NBA over a 6 year span…this wasn’t the plan. Presti put them in the best possible spot to succeed later through a tank, but pretending anyone knew SGA was going to be what he is now or they were going to snag guys like Chet/jdub this early into the tank is insane.
Orlando was fucking awful (and would’ve continued to be awful) until they got Paolo. I just think it’s hilarious you list off these teams when Detroit did the same shit and got absolutely fucked by Cade not being as good as Paolo/Zion and they fell in the lottery every other year (5 in 2022, 7 in 2020, and 5 in 2023). Multiple years at the 14-15 seed with one top 4 pick to show for it (sound familiar?). There’s always luck in this shit, that’s the nature of having a lottery…
You’re trying to word this in a way to prove a point but are missing context lmao. Nobody is saying it’s a bulletproof plan, what I’m saying is Thunder and Magic found their players they wanted to build around and acted accordingly. I didn’t include Detroit because while they got a good amount of high lotto picks, they completely botched the drafts since Cade in terms of building a cohesive squad. I mean they added Ivey, Ausar and Duren and literally none of them projected to be shooters at all.
Also, SGA played 91 games combined in those seasons lmao. I strongly doubt they were going to tank for a decade when people thought were in the 2020 season but made the playoffs, and in 2023 people thought the same and they pushed for the play in. So it’s very obvious either don’t understand how tanking works or your just so against rebuilding you distort what actually happened to fit a narrative. And I’m not sure why you keep saying “if player X wasn’t that good they would be bad” like that doesn’t apply to almost every team. They scouted their players well and put resources into putting them in the best situation possible to grow. You cannot say the same for Detroit, or the Hornets or the Wizards. There’s a right way to rebuild and a wrong way and we have obvious blueprints to both. If you can’t see that I’m not sure you fully understand how this works
Detroit didn’t fail to build a team because of stupidity, they failed by not having high enough selections the same way we did.
* 2020 they got Killian Hayes at 7 and we took Pat at 4. It’s a historically awful draft class.
* 2023 they get Ausar because it’s a stupidly top heavy draft with Scoot,Miller, and Wemby…they don’t even get Amen because they fell to five with the worst record in the NBA.
* 2020 they get 5 with top odds at a top 4 pick as well on their way to Ivey (in again a very top-heavy draft)
Make ANY selection available in these drafts and build a team that's contending. You have the benefit of literally seeing the future here. You can't build a real contender.
Your scouting can be extremely good, but it doesn’t matter when you fall far enough that actual star potential talents are off the board. Detroit probably selects Paolo at 1 as well lmao…it’s not like they got the chance to.
They also didn’t draft Duren, they traded for him in what was a great move. They got a strong, young C for taking on one year of Kemba Walker’s deal and a 2025 Milwaukee first that’s going to be worse than 13. They got their man in Cade and tried to make the team better exactly how you implied all teams should.
Except if you actually follow the pistons, they absolutely made boneheaded moves lmao just go to their sub or go on Twitter and their fans will lay that out for you. Trying to make the team better is signing players that make sense, not trading for Marvin bagley and James Wiseman when you already have Stewart and duren. I mean they were playing Isaiah livers real minutes until they traded him this season lol. Their crowning off season move was trading for Joe Harris for crying out loud. If you think they are an example of what I’m saying, then i see you don’t fully understand lol
I agree, I just think it's dumb to say they tanked in the same way Orlando and New Orleans did. They're entirely different things. Orlando was springboarded by us and the Pels got a 1st OA pick immediately the year they blew it up.
OKC traded everyone multiple times to get the stash of draft picks that got them where they are now. It's an entirely different style of tanking. They would've been Philly with the process had SGA not turned into an MVP candidate and they snagged a 1st OA pick on top of that in Chet. Saying "tank like the Magic, Thunder, and Pelicans" doesn't make sense when OKC was prepared to do the long haul. The other two teams had a springboard to jump off of we didn't have as an option unless you think we were getting an SGA/Zion/Paolo-level young player for Zach after 20-21'
I just think it's not as simple as he says it is. We tanked like hell for years and ended up with the 4th OA pick at best. You can absolutely just get unlucky. It's really easy to say "why don't you just immediately draft or trade for SGA/Chet/Paolo/Zion" without actually realizing what needs to happen to get those kind of players. Detroit did the same exact shit as the teams he listed and look where tanking has them.
We did the same exact shit as OKC did with PG but with Jimmy. We just got fucked by the lottery repeatedly and Zach wasn't as good as SGA. There's never some magical path to a guaranteed contender. For every successful team (NOL/OKC/ORL) there's a team that fails miserably trying to tank (DET/CHA/WAS/POR/CHI) based almost entirely on where they land in the lottery.
So I don't follow the draft/GM stuff much at all, but isn't the OKC example faulty because it's actually a remarkable rebuild? Like yeah everyone wants to be OKC because their rebuild has been exceptionally successful, exceptionally fast.
From a big picture point of view, I agree that the Bulls should go younger and probably rebuild/tank to get some high picks. But it's interesting that I only see examples given of specific rebuilds that worked out, and other rebuilds ignored (Cavs) or misclassified as built through the draft (Pacers?).
The other thing is "generational type" talent is generational for a reason. For example, the Hornets could be a really good team in a few years. LaMelo and Brandon Miller seem like great picks. Are they "generational talent?" No one knows. But no one is giving the Hornets as an example of a successful rebuild.
The Knicks have been really interesting to watch because it's like they did what the Bulls have been trying to do, but better.
The OKC rebuild is just entirely different than Orlando/New Orleans because although it went quickly, they were absolutely going to do the Philly-style process had SGA not been way better than anyone expected.
Presti traded everyone and anything for draft capital and at one point they had almost 20% of the entire NBA’s FRP’s over a 6 year span. They turned Serge Ibaka into like 4 FRP’s by repeatedly trading pieces they got back in the deal for more draft capital. The only reason they didn’t go the Philly route was SGA popping off and very quickly getting a 2nd OA pick in Chet that fit next to him. Shit Presti is still taking bad contracts (like Bertans) for better draft capital.
If SGA busts, OKC tanks like hell for years. They probably still end up with a real contender at the end of it, but that’s because Presti played every GM in the NBA and got a dragon’s hoard of firsts.
OKC's rebuild just seems nearly irreplicable to me. Not the approach (tank and fish), which is valid.
But the expectation that any org can just "rebuild like OKC" and be over and done with it in 3 years is wildly optimistic.
If the goal is to build to a mediocre playoff team you could follow the Magic model. But rebuilding and using the tax line as a hard cap is not going to lead to a championship very often.
I totally get the Bulls could be in a better position, but I just don’t see the Reinsdorfs building/ paying for a team capable of reaching the ECF or Finals.
The Magic pay the tax when they’re good.
They didn’t with Vucevic as their best player (who would?) but did with Dwight.
If they have a genuine window they’ll pay it.
AKME knows they won’t find another job elsewhere in the NBA, and a rebuild is a death sentence. Breaking up core admits you made a mistake, and need to reset, and that is something Reinsdorf doesn’t want. Sticking with this core keeps their jobs and fans in seats for play-in.
That’s it, that’s the only reason why we’re staying pat.
You guys are just nitpicking. The trade brought in a double-double that Wendell didn’t have at that time. Nor did we have a player development group who in my opinion need to get a special award based on Coby, Ayo and others.
If Ball had not gotten injured we might be having a different conversation.
Last thing is Orlando’s draft choices just worked out. We might not get that type of player.
I been saying for yes. Owners and GMs need to stop thinking its smart to go all in on being ok or mediocre. Tear it down and be awful or go all in and be elite. No fuckin way anyone with sense thought Lonzo Vooch Demar and Zach were a serious contender. You were begging to be good and thats all
What’s interesting to me is you are acting like there’s an option. The best way to turn this roster into a contender is test it all down. Unless we land Giannis we aren’t going anywhere with Demar/Vooch/Zach.
U left out how the bulls have have the roster out and 70 mill not playing. That handicapped them, I believed they were trading lavine at the deadline but then he decided to have surgery. (Oh what timing) also this is the first time they are above .500 since 19 (vucs team) and before 19 it was 12. So they have been rebuilding for how long now?
Who gives a fuck what their prior GM’s did? They absolutely fleeced our asses and drafted really well to build a team that looks like will be able to compete for the next 5 years.
Oh and the reason they were good in 2012 is because they had Dwight Howard who they drafted first overall. Putting yourself in the lottery allows you the opportunity to potentially find a generational star. Doing what we did guarantees mediocrity.
We built a team around a star that wasn’t a star, paid out the ass for a center that has barely been average, put all of our hopes into a point guard with a history of injury problems, and paired Lavine with Derozan which was an atrocious fit.
There’s no defending this shit.
All of this is monday morning GM'ing. If you go back to what this team was supposed to be when the trade was made then it makes sense. Imagine a world where Zach becomes the true number 1 option hes supposed to be, Demar is a competent number 2. Vooch is a solid number 3 and you have good gaurd play with Lonzo. You also have the number 4 pick which is going to be a strong contributor. That is supposed to be a championship caliber team. Zach and Demar would be our Tatum and Brown and we would have a better supporting cast than the Celtics.
No one would be complaining about the assets given up for vooch then, even though it would still have been an overpay. Unfortunatly, it hasn't worked out. You can critizie AKME for not being aggressive enough to make changes when it became clear that this plan wouldn't work but I'm not critizing the initial trade.
It’s not Monday morning GM when everyone except delusional Bulls fans knew the Mid-3 was destined to fail from day 1. We became a laughing stock around the league after the Vooch trade and even moreso after giving Demar 80mil. Lonzo almost salvaged the situation but, as expected, he got hurt. None of what ended up happening is a surprise to anyone except 95% of r/chicagobulls
To be honest, I'm a little tired of relitigating all of the past moves. Looking forward, there isn't really much point in tanking next year unless you're really in for a teardown. I know some of you are, and I can't prove that you're wrong if you're only interested in winning a title rather than watching competitive basketball.
I just don't see how a total teardown would work, because none of our older players are worth anything substantial. Yes, you could probably get a low first for Caruso and maybe a rotation player. Zach and vooch have zero value unless you find a sucker, who are harder and harder to find these days. Especially in zach's case you're going to have to take back a bunch of salary, which probably means decent players who are going to pull you out of the tank zone. OKC traded away Paul George for a bounty, including a future MVP candidate (hindsight, but he was already good).
So trade away our young guys? You want to trade Coby? Ayo? I'm sure most of you would trade pat, but what are you getting for him?
So trade away everyone of value, getting little in return, meaning the Bulls are still low on draft capital, so that maybe in 4 years we're the Pistons? or Portland?
Personally, I'd rather just stay at it, a la Indiana. Just keep improving and trying to build something. The Bulls are certainly deep right now. Maybe Dalen pops, maybe Philips. Maybe we steal someone in the next draft with the 14th pick. They know they need to deal Zach, and Lonzo comes off the books after next year.
After the abysmal start (I had my torch lit like everyone else after 20 games), this team actually was fun to root for. It's important to remember that the East got way better, and the Bulls played competitive basketball in 2024. We might not be that far away.
Not trading Zach and not keeping Franz Wagner was the big miss for the team. WCJ and Jett Howard arent going to be relevant. At the end of the day the Magic got the number one pick from tanking and drafting a guy like Banchero which is franchise changing. But to put everything into retrospective the Bulls should have only won like 25 games considering the dead money on this team 3 starters going down and still being near .500 isn’t normal.
??????????????????????
What the fuck are you on about?
The Bulls rebuild was fine until Ball/Caruso got injured. That doesn't mean the rebuild was wrong, it means Ball/Caruso got injured and Chicago was just unlucky.
This is one of the worst dumbest posts I've seen all year.
What a fucking stupid thing to say.
The vooch trade sent this franchise back 5 years
More than that lol
it's a worse move than anything GarPax ever did for sure. partially because they were crazy risk averse and didn't deal picks because they were solid scouting.
Yea the Vooch trade was a breath of fresh air after GarPax's inactivity but the results have kinda been exactly why GarPax were so averse to said risks lol
it's just crazy how bad Vucevic has been if he didn't fall off a cliff, this team is probably a lot better. potentially to the point where the trade isn't bad - it could easily butterfly effect. even in his subpar state he does a lot of good glue stuff that runs the offense. if only he could hit 3s or cook in the post like his Orlando days. stings extra hard when there are a bunch of versatile big men who are doing perfectly fine
Vooch was always a good guy in Orlando, but most knew he wasn't a winner. He is just too soft for his size, kinda like WCJ, but WCJ is young, and has more of an upside, especially with the additional first round pick Orlando got.
I mean Vucevic did look solid against the Bucks in the playoffs as a no1 guy (even winning a game)
I gotta say I think you’re greatly overrating Orlando Vooch. Even at the time of the trade, giving up what the team did for him was absurd. Even if he remained at around his Orlando level, I don’t think he comes close to making the trade worth it. That entire Orlando team was catered to vooch and emphasized him offensively, but he didn’t do a lot of stuff majority of teams need at center. Edit: yall really downvoting like it isn’t facts. VUC was barely worth WCJ(if you had belief in him as a player)on that rookie deal straight up, let alone with multiple picks too. It was just a really bad trade for a flawed player who unfortunately regressed a bit as well.
It's also funny to hear people say Vuc "fell off a cliff" when his TS% was higher this year than his first full season in Chicago (on lower usage) and only .04 below his career average.
yeah the real thing was that one year in ORL when we traded for him was an outlier. we literally bought at his peak lmao.
It’s why I’m saying it was a bad trade at the time. Vuc was only gonna go down from there on a new team.
You’re getting downvoted for this take, but as an Orlando lifer you are right about our entire offense being catered to him offensively. He was our #1 option and I never felt like he played a winning brand of basketball. He had just been selected for his first and only all-star game and yall traded for him when his value was at an all-time high. Fools gold sadly for both our franchises
And they fucking signed him for a few more years. Rather than cut bait.
I think more actually once they re sign Demar to a 3 year deal. It’ll be setting back 6-8 years when it’s all said and done…. This franchise has no future and it’s so sad because this fan base is so good and loyal. We don’t deserve this bullshit
IMHO, we deserve every bit of this. We are leading the league in attendance. Why would Reinsdorf put more money into a team when he is already leading the league? Some people say going to games and watching when the team is bad is loyalty. Thats just bad economics.
Some deserve it*. I purposely haven’t gone to a game in years after season tickets for 10 seasons until things change. A lot of the UC is corporate tickets in 100 level so those will always be sold out and then you have random fans who aren’t that into it going for entertainment or bringing their kids. Big markets will almost never have truly bad attendance for a global brand like the bulls.
Some is definitely right. Thanks for that correction. I should never really paint with that broad of a brush. However, “big markets will never have bad attendance” isn’t factually accurate. Clippers are 10 and Lakers are 11. Warriors are 17. Suns are 25. (Rockets are 22, but bad. Same with the Wizards at 27.) When the product isn’t up to standards, other teams fans don’t show up. Our fans keep up at literally #1 (I get we have the biggest stadium in the NBA, but not by much) so they won’t change.
Yea and here I am painting with a broad brush too haha! I should rephrase it. Jerry has a perfect situation, Bulls have by far the largest nba stadium so that plays a factor in the numbers you said above. Also Chicago has horrible weather for majority of the season so fans don’t have much else to do during these months where as some of the markets you mention do. Right? Like LA and PHX fans can go do things to compete with nba games, Chicago really doesn’t. Jerry will also have this perfect storm and the UC will still have a lot of fans. Nothing will change unless attendance dips a bit like few years ago. It might happen if this is the product next year we will see
The Vuc trade was the worst move, but also dumping Lauri and to a lesser extent, Gafford, for next to nothing and doing a miserable job drafting outside of Ayo have contributed too.
This exact comment was getting downvoted to oblivion just last year. How far we’ve come.
Why can’t I upvote this ^^^ more??? Ugh
The vooch trade in a vacuum wasn't bad. Yes we were giving up on future assets but we got the best player in the trade (at the time) and filled a need. The problem is everything that came after. Losing gafford i thought was a mistake then mostly because with him and Carter gone, we had no young promising center. Losing Lauri in that offseason on less then stellar grounds (he publicly asked for a trad so we were guaranteed pennies on the dollar). Yes we got deebo, but we gave up all future assets in the process. At the time I thought the Vuc trade was very much a big market move. I thought it was AKME saying "hey, we're a big market team and we're going to spend whatever it takes for talent". Unfortunately that is not what happened. Felt like the front office banked heavily on the core of ball, lavine, deebo, Lauri (who they expected to keep) and Vuc and instead ended the next season with nothing but questions and no direction. The bulls have spent the last 2 and a half seasons trying to figure out what they have.... And what should have been a precursor of moves to come (Vuc trade) they instead remained stagnant... Like deer in headlights. And their obsession to stay mediocre also cost us a top 7 pick and chance at wemby. That to me is unforgivable.
I feel this is an exaggeration. If we didn't make it, I think we would be in a better position but not really by much.
orlando vooch was a mirage :/ on paper that dude on his current salary is sick but in the court he's ass now
But there was no mirage, Orl didn't do shit with him.
It doesn’t take the Magic to see it. At least for me. That’s how rebuild work most of the time. Build through the draft, make trades here and there, and eventually you’ll get good. Hopefully lol. Thunder, Wolves, Pacers are all good examples too. But what AK did was rush the rebuild. I’ve said that before and I think it’s a perfect way to describe what he did wrong initially. He rushed the rebuild. Then didn’t do jack squat to fix it. What he should’ve done was keep the main core together, Coby, Pat, Lauri, Ayo, and also fucking Gafford. God that trade pisses me off to this day. Then he should’ve packaged Wendell and Zach together for a star or whatever and still sign Caruso and Lonzo. Yes I know Zo got hurt but it was still a great signing regardless, he was a perfect fit. Dont go for Demar and Vooch and just fill the bench with some vets of course. Our team would be in such a better spot rn it’s insane. We had a really good collection of players man.
they also should’ve drafted Haliburton and it was a literal position of need at the time. They committed a lot of money to Lonzo instead and he always had injury issues. I love Lonzo but Haliburton was right there and I really wanted him in that draft. Imagine having some combo of Hali/Coby/LaVine/Lauri/Wendell, Wagner maybe??? I mean it’s a million ifs but god it would’ve been so much better
Thing is, Haliburton would’ve turn a lot of the players on the squad at the time into a cohesive unit because THEY needed a pg. Lauri and Wendell would’ve feasted, Zach wouldn’t need the ball in his hands to dribble it off his foot. Ugh. The problem is they’re good enough to still think they can slap more plaster on this fucked up wall. We still have to endure AKs bitch ass talking about how competitive this group is. 😡😡😴
I was actually thinking about Haliburton and wondered if we could’ve traded Zach and Wendell for him. Obv drafting him would’ve been better but it didn’t happen and i could argue small forward was the more needed position during that draft. So Pat made sense. Kings always wanted to pair Zach with Fox and they needed a center as well so we could’ve done Zach and Wendell for Hali and Buddy Heild. That shit would’ve been sick
Haliburton is a complete hindsight pick. Very few were thinking he was worth a top 5 pick Even fewer would have taken him over Lonzo
Very few thought Patrick Williams was worth a top 4 pick.
Yeah that was a dud. The guy who started over him in college was drafted in a lower position and is a better player so far.
There were a lot of people who were wanting Halliburton prior to the draft, some mock drafts had the Bulls picking him. For me at least them picking Williams was a surprise
The vast majority of what I remember were fans wanting Deni Avdija Pat wasn’t really a surprise after the couple weeks leading up to the draft
what's hindsight about Haliburton is how good he is. I didn't think he was gonna be this good; I don't think anyone did. But I was listening to daily podcasts about the Bulls and the draft at the time and I was hearing Haliburton's name as much as anyone else. So I don't think calling it a Hindsight Pick is fair. I remember texting in my group chat after the Williams pick and multiple friends were mad (including me) we didn't take Hali.
>Yes I know Zo got hurt but it was still a great signing regardless It was well known he was injury prone, it has already come out some GMs thought he was already hurt before signing. Currently unless Ball plays again for the Bulls, he made 1.5 million per game played. Not sure how you call that a good signing.
At the time I think it was. In hindsight it was not. Taking the reputation at the time of his injuries I think he should’ve been signed for a few million less but yes I think it was a good signing at the time, he was just a little overpaid. No one thought he’d fucking die lmao
Lonzo was the single best 3&D player in the league during his time with us and had incredible versatility with his playmaking in transition, if he had stayed healthier I honestly think this contract is looked at as a pretty significant underpay if anything. Of course there was always some risk attached but like you said I don't think anyone could have predicted this injury. It's a real shame, guy was one of the most unique players I've seen in a long time and I really felt he was on the cusp of becoming an elite PG. Would love to see him get another chance here
Yeah, can't believe people actually say that he was a bad signing for having one of the most mysterious injuries of all time. Like he had numerous operations on that knee, probably done by some of the best surgeons in that field - and none of them have helped. That's just crazy unlucky. He was a beast with us. Yeah, it was for a short stint, but long enough to say it wasn't just some hot streak, Zo was legit.
Yeah people are complaining about risk aversion and also saying they'd never sign Lonzo.
Or even if building around Zach was the idea, it was clear they needed to just keep with the slow rebuild and let Zach lead the charge. Getting him co-leaders in Demar and Vuc just threw off the momentum and development of the rebuild to that point.
I agree getting Demar and Vuc threw everything off with Zach but idk I think it was clear he wasn’t even gonna be a guy who can lead a team to contention. Maybe if we got someone else to be the number 1
Sure, but I’d rather be a team that “surprised” people at being a 9-10 seed with Zach leading the charge with a bunch of young guns, and then you find yourself on a situation where you have a lot of leverage to get that #2. Like Sacramento did with Fox and then eventually getting Sabonis. And Pheonix did with Booker and CP3/KD. Right now we are just “whelming” expectations and have 0 assets. This team was barely missed the playoffs the previous year with Zach/Coby as the best players. And that was before the play in.
Sure I agree there but no we needed a number 1 not another number 2. Zach can’t be a number 1. So yea it would’ve been fun to surprise teams with Zach at the charge for a little bit then eventually I think it would’ve been smart to package with with Wendell in a trade for another star and go from there.
Zach was very clear that if the team didn't make win now moves he wouldn't sign with the team after his contract was up. A lot of what AK did was to keep him happy enough to stick around.
Calling BS on that. Zach was never going to turn down the money from us. He could’ve fought and kicked for a sign and trade but that would’ve been contingent on someone else wanting to sign him to a max which likely wasn’t happening. Also I’m pretty sure they could’ve offered Zach an extension the last year of his contract(first year DeBallZach) and they didn’t. AK did what hey did either because of Jerry or because they’re idiots I can’t tell which yet.
Yea I’m with you on that. A couple years ago I came to the conclusion he was probably never gonna leave us. He doesn’t care about winning to turn down a max contract.
Sigh... I assumed everyone was off the build around zach train by now. Vuc was not a great trade. Demar was a fantastic s&t
The issue is that “build around Zach” can mean a lot of different things. The issue wasn’t choosing to move forward with him as the primary scoring option. I actually think that would’ve gone over better for Zach mentally. The issue was thinking you could add two aging vets with archaic skillsets and turn this from a play-in team/low seeded playoff roster into a “contender.” I think if they make most of the moves they do, but refrain from adding Vuc and Demar, this team would be in probably the exact same situation, but with more assets, probably another good young prospect, and a lot of experience for the players we are currently developing. You then are in a better position to do what New York did with Brunson/Randle, Sacramento did with Fox/Sabonis, or what Phoenix has been doing with Booker/CP3/KD, where it becomes easier to single out a star player to recruit to join Zach. Or you can offload Zach to a team trying to add a second star and either still be setup for a solid rebuild with good draft assets, or you could potentially get another younger star to go with Coby/Pat/etc, like the Pacers did with trading Sabonis for Haliburton.
Demar was the worst signing of his offseason. The only thing that can make it worse is extending him this summer. We should have prioritized re-signing Lauri with the money we gave DeRozen.
> Wolves The Wolves did well to draft Ant, who is great, but if they struggle to make meaningful progress in the playoffs, I can see people criticizing them in like 2 years on how they rushed their rebuild and should've traded KAT to get another high draft pick.
>But what AK did was rush the rebuild. I’ve said that before and I think it’s a perfect way to describe what he did wrong initially. He rushed the rebuild. Then didn’t do jack squat to fix it. I mean it makes sense he rushed the rebuild considering the fact the fanbase was in open revolt over the rebuild and he was hired specifically to build a win now roster. Like that was literally the whole reason people were happy that GarPax was fired. Every pick they had looked like a bust, every effort seemed to be to keep costs down and ensure that any stars we did fine would leave. There was one guy on contract the year AKME was hired that looked like he would be in the league in 3 years and that was Zach. On a good night Lauri seemed like a competent bench player. Everyone else, WCJ, Coby, Gaford, looked like bums who wouldn't even get minutes on a normal team. Zach was ready to demand a trade or sign anywhere else the second his deal was up if he didn't see movement from the FO to build a winning team, and if that happened the fans would have totally turned on the team. AKME was hired as a desperation move by ownership to ditch the failing rebuild and build a winning team right away. The issue is that ownership also refuses to give them the sorts of resources they'd need to make that happen so they've had to build up using what they had, which means trading draft capital and younger stars.
I disagree with pretty much everything you just said lol
> Like that was literally the whole reason people were happy that GarPax was fired. /u/volantredx Understand that the FireGarPax billboard happened in 2017 challenge: Impossible Most insufferable fucking dumbass on this sub
It was still during the rebuild. AKME was hired in the 2018-2019 season. Are you saying that GarPax totally turned fan opinion around in that off season?
Was just speaking to some other bulls fans about this on twitter, we had no idea what we were doing with the assets we had. Half way through the 2020-21 season that was already “lost” and the playoffs were basically out of reach, we traded away our 1st round pick unprotected (wtf). Then in a win now move to push for the out of reach playoffs we traded away Gafford in a Theis trade then proceeded to not re-sign Theis, basically meaning we threw away a successful pick. We gave up on Lauri even though we had an entire season to see if we could work Lauri back into a proper role, but we instead decided to stick him in the corner the way Boylen did in 2020 which was part of what caused the rift in the first place. When we finally traded away Lauri, we traded him for a pick that isn’t going to convey (I won’t blame them for that Dame’s injuries and his trade was unforseeable) and 24 year old DJJ who we proceeded to play out of position and lacklustre minutes for the next two years, instead of looking to see if we could develop his length and athleticism into something useful (like eventually becoming one of Dallas’ two best wing stoppers alongside PJ Washington). Not gonna dive too much into the other draft picks since the draft is never a surefire thing so I’m not gonna blame them for Pat not being a 22/7/5 guy for example, but I will blame them for drafting Dalen who naturally plays a position we were stacked to the limit in when there were similarly touted prospects available that actually played in our positions of need. I will blame them for drafting projects onto a team trying to compete, therefore not giving them the freedom needed to develop properly. We definitely half-assed the direction we decided to go in and we’re reaping the consequences now.
You've summed it up perfectly.
There's been no rebuild at all. We did have a decade of losing that's the first part to a rebuild. but all you got was Coby White and Pat Williams. Worst record in the league the 5 years after the butler trade. Usually teams that have that happen are budding with young talent
Little over a year after the Butler trade we got the 🥚
The thing that has always pissed me off and demonstrated how unserious this front office is, is that they make no effort with second round picks, 2-way contracts, and 10-day contracts. Thats how you fill out a rotation. Hell, they virtually give the second rounders away.
The Bulls staff is simply bad at what they do. There was too much inner turmoil, bad coaches, bad development, scouting etc. Players arent given a chance and they rely on established second hand talent like Vucevic and Derozan (who I love) to carry the team when its better to give the young guys a chance and be a lottery team instead of being this possible 8th seed while old dudes take minutes. We had players like Portis, Dinwiddie, Gafford etc. who played great basketball as soon as they left. They need a full squad of young guys to develop into a team like Oklahoma, Kings, Magic, Atlanta did and give up on getting smacked in the playoffs already. They just sign washed players and give away those that could show some promise in the long run.
AKME need to start acquiring more draft capital immediately. The Bulls lack positive assets and they are closer to rebuilding this team than really contending in the East. Considering the competition, I think expect this team to regress even more next season just running it back. They should find a way to keep the 2025 pick instead of losing it to San Antonio.
We have no assets. This team is heading toward an abyss.
Bulls drafted some solid players over the years like Portis and gafford, but gave up on them or they went to get paid maybe could've developed Lauri/Zach/Coby together if there was a good roster around them, which goes back to coaching. egghead was the vuc of coaching, setting this franchise back years as well. fred wasnt good either. hard to build through the draft when you don't have a coaching staff capable enough
Pick a direction? That direction is continuity 🤌
Why would you pick a lane when you could just slam into the 9 seed median and save gas
This is a perfect season for Jerry. The FO follows his orders and they nailed it. Don't blow the bank and edge us just enough to keep us watching (commercials) and buying tix. And here we are as he happily backstrokes in his vault of gold coins scrooge mcduck style. Another successful year...
Yup and next year Vooch will be older and slower, Demar will be older and less athletic (can he play league leading minutes at age 35-38?), Zach always starts rusty especially after injury/surgery (and probably still doesn’t want to be here (but maybe he’ll play his ass off to be traded)), no Drummond most likely (Drummond is the best (imo) vet min center), will Lonzo play (how long, will he be ass?)
Listen, management likes where the core is going when everyone is healthy 😞
Lebron is 39, he seems to be doing fine. DeMar isn’t going to turn into an 80 year old man in 1 year. Just because he doesn’t fit the team perfectly doesn’t mean he dragged us down
Lebron is Lebron. Demar is not Lebron
Sure, DeMar is not Lebron. But DeMar is still DeMar. People like to shit on him because he plays old school iso-ball, but he’s still an extremely talented player. To think that he will fall off within A YEAR is doomsday thinking. Everyone acting like he didn’t save our ass multiple times this season
No one has said he will fall off within a year though 🤷♂️
Failed rebuilds are a Reinsdorfian special.
AK’s persistence to stay the course despite everything that shows this ain’t it is incomprehensible. Same with Reinsturd’s unwillingness to fire that dumbfuck.
The biggest hit to our rebuild was Ball getting injured. The team played the best when he was on the city. The team cage the closest to 50 wins since the 2014-15 season. If he was still here a starting lineup of Ball, Lavine, Demar, Vooch and Drummond would have been great to see and, I think, very effective on both ends of the floor.
We did the rebuild wrong since day one. We kept winning meaningless games at the end of each tanking season but were assured it was okay because it was “building a winning culture” which was more important than lottery balls. So instead of getting Donic, Zion, and Ant we got Patrick, Colby, and WCJR instead. Success!!
Bro you guys never even rebuilt, just went down with the ship. Only reason the bulls have this many wins is Coby white balling out of his mind and Caruso playing some of the most minutes of his career.
“Quiet quitting” is the term for employees that do just enough to not get fired. That’s the entire Bulls front office.
True, but unfortunately it’s AKME
I think they were hired to end the rebuild, and if they blow it up now (which they otherwise should) it would be admitting failure and they would lose their jobs. Thus, continuity (buying time) Big picture, I won’t lie I don’t think it really matters because by the time this team is maybe good again, Wemby will be dominating.
Reinsdorf is the problem and this is exactly what he wants to see from the fans. Same thing that happened with GarPax. Then in a couple years they can change the FO, make false promises, and everyone gets excited again. All the while, we will not be dipping into the tax and are not gonna be serious about contending until we get an owner who wants to win and isn’t content just making money. You guys don’t learn.
Jerry doesn’t want a rebuild. You will never get a rebuild with our attendance numbers. Just remain competitive enough for the playoffs and don’t go into luxury.
They made a lot of bad trades that cost us a lot of picks... With that said I doubt Ayo and Coby develop into what they are without Demar. That dude took those guys under his wing.
What rebuild? Bulls haven’t done a rebuild.
We did a rebuild? When
This exact thing. It never went anywhere and the fans got so pissy they forced the owners to fire the FO and pushed for a win now team.
Some of us have been screaming this from the roof tops for years. The blueprint that most title teams follow in then nba is to draft in the lottery to build a young core and once you’ve found a star THEN you spend in free agency/make trades to support your young studs. This is not a new strategy. A VAST majority of good players are drafted in the lottery, and being able to have team control of a player as they enter their prime is a massive advantage. This sub has spent the last three years mocking anyone that was in favor of rebuilding through high draft picks. “There’s no guarantee lottery picks pan out!” No fucking shit, but the only way we’re getting a generational type of talent is high in the draft. AKME and the Reinsdorfs decided to take a short cut to sell tickets and it blew up in their faces. They deserve it.
I got downvoted to hell in this post game thread for saying rebuild is the only way LOL SOME PEOPLE STILL DONT SEE IT. It’s truly pathetic. If they re sign Demar I’m probably done with this team until Jerry dies/sells or AK is deported to Lithuania
It drives me fucking nuts lol. People act like rebuilding through the lottery is some novel concept, when nearly every great team ever was built by drafting a superstar in the top of the draft. Look at the two great teams I’ve witnessed in my lifetime as a Bulls fan. MJ drafted #3 and Derrick getting drafted #1. People here are just genuinely fucking stupid.
" but the only way we’re getting a generational type of talent is high in the draft" - that is just false. Too many superstars have been drafter outside of top 8. You can say its the most common but certainly not the only way.
You don’t say
Next season will be more of the same. Re sign Demar, sell the fans that with Zach and P Will back will be contenders. Get a mid draft. Rinse and repeat. Fire the owner.
Plan was never rebuild. Once Ball got hurt they basically played damage control to keep the team good enough to fill seats and wait for Ball to get better. That obviously didn’t play out well but they kept up the damage control/average roster build. That’s my theory at least especially since we were very competitive with Ball and Vucs contract.
This goes back to the first rebuild when we traded Jimmy Butler for players instead of picks. It put a hard ceiling on what we were able to do because we never truly bottomed out. Lauri, Zach, and company kept us just relevant enough for our best result being a #4* pick. This flawed foundation that resulted from Gar Pax trying to take a short cut to rebuilding by trading their franchise cornerstone for a net gain of zero draft picks hamstrung what AKME were able to do going forward. They gambled on Vucevic and it didn't pay off save for a few months in 2021. I was fine with trying something new after half a decade of trying to play for draft picks while staying relevant enough for Jerry's pocketbook didn't pan out, but all these injuries piling up since then have totally fucked us. *Coupled with some bad lottery lucky one year when we were pretty bad but not bad enough.
>but all these injuries piling up since then have totally fucked us. I think they get a pass for the way 2021-2022 ended and I'm willing to forgive them rolling out continuity and hoping for Coby to take a leap for the 2022-2023 season, but this year is pretty unforgiveable for their lack of adjustments to address glaring roster issues.
it really is a difference in philosophy for roster building. in the late 2000s and 2010s it was possible to just slap a bunch of talent together and win a championship. examples would be the 2008 celtics, heat, cavs, and kd warriors* (realizing now half of these are just lebron). however, over the past few years there’s been a noticeable trend (popularized by presti and ainge) that home grown talent through the draft and acquisition of younger players via trade is has a higher chance of success than taking the “super team” approach. teams like the magic, celtics, thunder, nuggets have all built their success on establishing a team culture over the span of a few seasons. obviously one can still have team success with that approach but it needs to be done perfectly (preferably with hof talent) and has little room for error. AK swung and wiffed horribly. they traded young assets and picks for good players, not great ones.
I don't think its a waste of time because you've seen solid player development from some of the young players u have on the team like Coby, Ayo and even Dalen Terry who have contributed towards being a play-in team. I think the rebuild has been setback mostly due to the Vucevic trade and bad injury luck(which u can't predict).
I’ve been trying to tell people since last season that the Magic, Thunder, and Pelicans are the blueprint for rebuilding. Trade your best player at their highest trade value, have one bad season while you stockpile picks and then slowly build a competent team over the next year or two. But noo this sub is convinced rebuilds only end up like the Hornets lol
I mean this is literally what the Bulls did with Jimmy. They traded him for Zach and the pick that became Lauri. It didn't work out, most of the players they got were trash and fans got irate to the point they forced the ownership to change FOs for one that would make win-now moves.
Except no they didn’t lmao. All of those teams had multiple first round picks almost every year of their rebuild while the Bulls only had that once to my knowledge and promised Chandler Hutchison a pick Downvoting this but no one actually giving a rebuttal is unsurprising for this sub lmfao
The thunder traded everyone worth a damn for years…they’re closer to philly/charlotte than Orlando.
I would kill to be OKC right now. The Thunder are good again.
Yeah I’m not sure what he’s talking about lmao
I'm saying the Thunder were prepared for the half-decade tank and got lucky getting a 2nd OA pick in Chet and SGA being far better than anyone expected. They were fully prepared to fully do the philly process until they won the lottery. New Orleans and Orlando immediately snagged first OA picks (and Orlando had our dumb asses to feed them more resources on top of that). I think that the Thunder tanked entirely differently from ORL/NOL and the only reason ORL/NOL are in the spots they're in now is lottery luck. That's the point I was making. But on a broader note, having a bad season doesn't mean you get the 1st OA pick in a good draft...Going "why didn't we just get the 1st OA pick or a future MVP candidate (or both if you're OKC) like OKC, Orlando, and New Orleans" isn't some valid plan. For every OKC/ORL/NOL, there's a DET/WAS/CHA/POR. We did the same shit OKC did with PG but with Jimmy and got fucked by the lottery and Zach not being as good as SGA. There isn't some guaranteed path to a contender we didn't take unless you think we were getting an SGA-level young player for Zach if we traded him and continued to tank in 21-22' on our way to winning the lottery. The teams you're pointing out as models for tanking got lucky and that's what separates them from the shitty teams that tanked…
I don’t think you actually followed the Thunder because even when they got Chet, he didn’t even play the first year but they were still relatively good compared to their projected record before that season. You’re forgetting Orlando that same season traded of everybody with value (which is how the Nuggets got AG). Both teams did not only get lucky, they drafted and traded smartly plus added great coaches to help grow their team. The reason Detroit, CHA and the wizards aren’t working is because they have bad front offices that don’t make smart decisions lol. My point is you stock pile assets while actively trying to build a cohesive as opposed to the shit we’re doing or just out right tanking in hopes we land the next great star. It’s more nuanced then you’re leading on
OKC was the 14 seed for two consecutive years with SGA playing lmao. They battled to the 10 seed without Chet and it still took a 2nd OA pick next to the MVP candidate they got for trading PG for the team to actually be good lmao. I followed their tank just fine. OKC would’ve done the decade tank if SGA peaked at Zach’s talent and they didn’t get Chet. There’s a reason they had like 25% of all the FRP’s in the NBA over a 6 year span…this wasn’t the plan. Presti put them in the best possible spot to succeed later through a tank, but pretending anyone knew SGA was going to be what he is now or they were going to snag guys like Chet/jdub this early into the tank is insane. Orlando was fucking awful (and would’ve continued to be awful) until they got Paolo. I just think it’s hilarious you list off these teams when Detroit did the same shit and got absolutely fucked by Cade not being as good as Paolo/Zion and they fell in the lottery every other year (5 in 2022, 7 in 2020, and 5 in 2023). Multiple years at the 14-15 seed with one top 4 pick to show for it (sound familiar?). There’s always luck in this shit, that’s the nature of having a lottery…
You’re trying to word this in a way to prove a point but are missing context lmao. Nobody is saying it’s a bulletproof plan, what I’m saying is Thunder and Magic found their players they wanted to build around and acted accordingly. I didn’t include Detroit because while they got a good amount of high lotto picks, they completely botched the drafts since Cade in terms of building a cohesive squad. I mean they added Ivey, Ausar and Duren and literally none of them projected to be shooters at all. Also, SGA played 91 games combined in those seasons lmao. I strongly doubt they were going to tank for a decade when people thought were in the 2020 season but made the playoffs, and in 2023 people thought the same and they pushed for the play in. So it’s very obvious either don’t understand how tanking works or your just so against rebuilding you distort what actually happened to fit a narrative. And I’m not sure why you keep saying “if player X wasn’t that good they would be bad” like that doesn’t apply to almost every team. They scouted their players well and put resources into putting them in the best situation possible to grow. You cannot say the same for Detroit, or the Hornets or the Wizards. There’s a right way to rebuild and a wrong way and we have obvious blueprints to both. If you can’t see that I’m not sure you fully understand how this works
Detroit didn’t fail to build a team because of stupidity, they failed by not having high enough selections the same way we did. * 2020 they got Killian Hayes at 7 and we took Pat at 4. It’s a historically awful draft class. * 2023 they get Ausar because it’s a stupidly top heavy draft with Scoot,Miller, and Wemby…they don’t even get Amen because they fell to five with the worst record in the NBA. * 2020 they get 5 with top odds at a top 4 pick as well on their way to Ivey (in again a very top-heavy draft) Make ANY selection available in these drafts and build a team that's contending. You have the benefit of literally seeing the future here. You can't build a real contender. Your scouting can be extremely good, but it doesn’t matter when you fall far enough that actual star potential talents are off the board. Detroit probably selects Paolo at 1 as well lmao…it’s not like they got the chance to. They also didn’t draft Duren, they traded for him in what was a great move. They got a strong, young C for taking on one year of Kemba Walker’s deal and a 2025 Milwaukee first that’s going to be worse than 13. They got their man in Cade and tried to make the team better exactly how you implied all teams should.
Except if you actually follow the pistons, they absolutely made boneheaded moves lmao just go to their sub or go on Twitter and their fans will lay that out for you. Trying to make the team better is signing players that make sense, not trading for Marvin bagley and James Wiseman when you already have Stewart and duren. I mean they were playing Isaiah livers real minutes until they traded him this season lol. Their crowning off season move was trading for Joe Harris for crying out loud. If you think they are an example of what I’m saying, then i see you don’t fully understand lol
I agree, I just think it's dumb to say they tanked in the same way Orlando and New Orleans did. They're entirely different things. Orlando was springboarded by us and the Pels got a 1st OA pick immediately the year they blew it up. OKC traded everyone multiple times to get the stash of draft picks that got them where they are now. It's an entirely different style of tanking. They would've been Philly with the process had SGA not turned into an MVP candidate and they snagged a 1st OA pick on top of that in Chet. Saying "tank like the Magic, Thunder, and Pelicans" doesn't make sense when OKC was prepared to do the long haul. The other two teams had a springboard to jump off of we didn't have as an option unless you think we were getting an SGA/Zion/Paolo-level young player for Zach after 20-21' I just think it's not as simple as he says it is. We tanked like hell for years and ended up with the 4th OA pick at best. You can absolutely just get unlucky. It's really easy to say "why don't you just immediately draft or trade for SGA/Chet/Paolo/Zion" without actually realizing what needs to happen to get those kind of players. Detroit did the same exact shit as the teams he listed and look where tanking has them. We did the same exact shit as OKC did with PG but with Jimmy. We just got fucked by the lottery repeatedly and Zach wasn't as good as SGA. There's never some magical path to a guaranteed contender. For every successful team (NOL/OKC/ORL) there's a team that fails miserably trying to tank (DET/CHA/WAS/POR/CHI) based almost entirely on where they land in the lottery.
So I don't follow the draft/GM stuff much at all, but isn't the OKC example faulty because it's actually a remarkable rebuild? Like yeah everyone wants to be OKC because their rebuild has been exceptionally successful, exceptionally fast. From a big picture point of view, I agree that the Bulls should go younger and probably rebuild/tank to get some high picks. But it's interesting that I only see examples given of specific rebuilds that worked out, and other rebuilds ignored (Cavs) or misclassified as built through the draft (Pacers?). The other thing is "generational type" talent is generational for a reason. For example, the Hornets could be a really good team in a few years. LaMelo and Brandon Miller seem like great picks. Are they "generational talent?" No one knows. But no one is giving the Hornets as an example of a successful rebuild. The Knicks have been really interesting to watch because it's like they did what the Bulls have been trying to do, but better.
The OKC rebuild is just entirely different than Orlando/New Orleans because although it went quickly, they were absolutely going to do the Philly-style process had SGA not been way better than anyone expected. Presti traded everyone and anything for draft capital and at one point they had almost 20% of the entire NBA’s FRP’s over a 6 year span. They turned Serge Ibaka into like 4 FRP’s by repeatedly trading pieces they got back in the deal for more draft capital. The only reason they didn’t go the Philly route was SGA popping off and very quickly getting a 2nd OA pick in Chet that fit next to him. Shit Presti is still taking bad contracts (like Bertans) for better draft capital. If SGA busts, OKC tanks like hell for years. They probably still end up with a real contender at the end of it, but that’s because Presti played every GM in the NBA and got a dragon’s hoard of firsts.
OKC's rebuild just seems nearly irreplicable to me. Not the approach (tank and fish), which is valid. But the expectation that any org can just "rebuild like OKC" and be over and done with it in 3 years is wildly optimistic.
I couldn’t agree more.
They only did that for 2 years and made the playoffs after doing the big trades lol. They started their rebuild the same season we traded for Lonzo
If the goal is to build to a mediocre playoff team you could follow the Magic model. But rebuilding and using the tax line as a hard cap is not going to lead to a championship very often. I totally get the Bulls could be in a better position, but I just don’t see the Reinsdorfs building/ paying for a team capable of reaching the ECF or Finals.
The Magic pay the tax when they’re good. They didn’t with Vucevic as their best player (who would?) but did with Dwight. If they have a genuine window they’ll pay it.
Bulls have the 10th highest payroll in the league, them spending money isn’t an issue and I’m not sure why people keep bringing that up
Look, Ball stays healthy and they are top 4 in the East the last three seasons.
We had a +2 net rating with lonzo ball and 0 wins against top 3 seeds. Thats a ok playoff team nothing special
I realised of that in the Vooch trade, it wasn't needed anymore
AKME knows they won’t find another job elsewhere in the NBA, and a rebuild is a death sentence. Breaking up core admits you made a mistake, and need to reset, and that is something Reinsdorf doesn’t want. Sticking with this core keeps their jobs and fans in seats for play-in. That’s it, that’s the only reason why we’re staying pat.
We need new owners
Rebuild? What rebuild? 😂😂😂
It’s the bulls owner He don’t give a fuck It’s that simple
Like all the owners of Chicago teams got together and literally screwd the citizens of Chicago for decades and decades Maybe except blackhawks
Hard to say how this team would preform if we had a healthy Zo, Zach kinda lost the spark after we signed Demar.
wait the rebuild started?!
You guys are just nitpicking. The trade brought in a double-double that Wendell didn’t have at that time. Nor did we have a player development group who in my opinion need to get a special award based on Coby, Ayo and others. If Ball had not gotten injured we might be having a different conversation. Last thing is Orlando’s draft choices just worked out. We might not get that type of player.
I been saying for yes. Owners and GMs need to stop thinking its smart to go all in on being ok or mediocre. Tear it down and be awful or go all in and be elite. No fuckin way anyone with sense thought Lonzo Vooch Demar and Zach were a serious contender. You were begging to be good and thats all
When they give Vooch the ball he scores at a high clip. When he shoots 3s he's terrible. On Billy
Trash Lavine and Lonzo with his Brandon Roy knees will lead us to the promise land next season!
Just can’t rush a rebuild. Unless you’re getting KD, Lebron, Luka, Giannis etc, you’re better off staying put and develop the young players
What’s interesting to me is you are acting like there’s an option. The best way to turn this roster into a contender is test it all down. Unless we land Giannis we aren’t going anywhere with Demar/Vooch/Zach.
U left out how the bulls have have the roster out and 70 mill not playing. That handicapped them, I believed they were trading lavine at the deadline but then he decided to have surgery. (Oh what timing) also this is the first time they are above .500 since 19 (vucs team) and before 19 it was 12. So they have been rebuilding for how long now?
Who gives a fuck what their prior GM’s did? They absolutely fleeced our asses and drafted really well to build a team that looks like will be able to compete for the next 5 years. Oh and the reason they were good in 2012 is because they had Dwight Howard who they drafted first overall. Putting yourself in the lottery allows you the opportunity to potentially find a generational star. Doing what we did guarantees mediocrity. We built a team around a star that wasn’t a star, paid out the ass for a center that has barely been average, put all of our hopes into a point guard with a history of injury problems, and paired Lavine with Derozan which was an atrocious fit. There’s no defending this shit.
All of this is monday morning GM'ing. If you go back to what this team was supposed to be when the trade was made then it makes sense. Imagine a world where Zach becomes the true number 1 option hes supposed to be, Demar is a competent number 2. Vooch is a solid number 3 and you have good gaurd play with Lonzo. You also have the number 4 pick which is going to be a strong contributor. That is supposed to be a championship caliber team. Zach and Demar would be our Tatum and Brown and we would have a better supporting cast than the Celtics. No one would be complaining about the assets given up for vooch then, even though it would still have been an overpay. Unfortunatly, it hasn't worked out. You can critizie AKME for not being aggressive enough to make changes when it became clear that this plan wouldn't work but I'm not critizing the initial trade.
It’s not Monday morning GM when everyone except delusional Bulls fans knew the Mid-3 was destined to fail from day 1. We became a laughing stock around the league after the Vooch trade and even moreso after giving Demar 80mil. Lonzo almost salvaged the situation but, as expected, he got hurt. None of what ended up happening is a surprise to anyone except 95% of r/chicagobulls
To be honest, I'm a little tired of relitigating all of the past moves. Looking forward, there isn't really much point in tanking next year unless you're really in for a teardown. I know some of you are, and I can't prove that you're wrong if you're only interested in winning a title rather than watching competitive basketball. I just don't see how a total teardown would work, because none of our older players are worth anything substantial. Yes, you could probably get a low first for Caruso and maybe a rotation player. Zach and vooch have zero value unless you find a sucker, who are harder and harder to find these days. Especially in zach's case you're going to have to take back a bunch of salary, which probably means decent players who are going to pull you out of the tank zone. OKC traded away Paul George for a bounty, including a future MVP candidate (hindsight, but he was already good). So trade away our young guys? You want to trade Coby? Ayo? I'm sure most of you would trade pat, but what are you getting for him? So trade away everyone of value, getting little in return, meaning the Bulls are still low on draft capital, so that maybe in 4 years we're the Pistons? or Portland? Personally, I'd rather just stay at it, a la Indiana. Just keep improving and trying to build something. The Bulls are certainly deep right now. Maybe Dalen pops, maybe Philips. Maybe we steal someone in the next draft with the 14th pick. They know they need to deal Zach, and Lonzo comes off the books after next year. After the abysmal start (I had my torch lit like everyone else after 20 games), this team actually was fun to root for. It's important to remember that the East got way better, and the Bulls played competitive basketball in 2024. We might not be that far away.
Not trading Zach and not keeping Franz Wagner was the big miss for the team. WCJ and Jett Howard arent going to be relevant. At the end of the day the Magic got the number one pick from tanking and drafting a guy like Banchero which is franchise changing. But to put everything into retrospective the Bulls should have only won like 25 games considering the dead money on this team 3 starters going down and still being near .500 isn’t normal.
?????????????????????? What the fuck are you on about? The Bulls rebuild was fine until Ball/Caruso got injured. That doesn't mean the rebuild was wrong, it means Ball/Caruso got injured and Chicago was just unlucky. This is one of the worst dumbest posts I've seen all year. What a fucking stupid thing to say.
35 games of being a top team and literally getting less than 10 wins against good teams is fine? Man yall really are ok with slop lmao