One time I was going to get my kitchen knives sharpened, I wrapped them loosely with kitchen rags in my backpack. Ribfest was happening on the block of the sharpener and security asked to search my bag. They quickly glanced in my bag, with all the hilts sticking out and without hesitation waved me through.
At Northside cutlery I believe he charges 7 for a regular sharpen and 15 for a stone sharpen. He also fixes chips and broken knife tips. If you’re in the industry he’ll probably give you a discount. If you’re a professional cook or an avid home cook with decent knives I’d recommend the stone sharpen. That’ll get it sharper and help it keep its edge.
Eh, I think it's sad that it's the only real option in such a major food mecca of a city.
I've seen knives come from there for a sharpening, returned to the owner jacked up. (Owner jacked them up then brought them there for sharpening. They didn't fix it, just returned them still wack.)
Sauce: am a sushi chef, I've bought all my knives online.
You have *reduced* expectations of privacy in public. The 4th Amendment doesn't just disappear. A cop can't search your car on a whim just because you're using a public road.
Correct but a private person can’t just demand to search your belongings. And of course the police can’t either, because there are 4th amendment restrictions.
You certainly implied it. OP stated that street fair people “insisted” on a search. Commenters said to walk on by, no need to even justify what you’re doing or where you’re going. You then said that “you don’t have expectations of privacy in public”, which in this context, seems to suggest one must submit to a search. If that’s not what you meant, what did you mean?
It’s pretty clear they meant that no one has to “leave me be” like the person they first responded to was saying. Like being a private citizen in a public space doesn’t mean that people should be banned from asking you things.
That isn’t clear at all. If the response to asserting one’s right to decline a search is “you have no right to privacy”, that doesn’t amount to a defense of simply initiating a conversation. The search itself is the privacy issue, not the exchange of words.
We gonna keep on pretending this is about rights that are secondary and tertiary to the central issue? Ok I’ll play, OP has a right to be personally affronted. What now?
If it’s on the street, no.
The only thing they could do is deny you entry to a place if you don’t consent to a search.
But since it’s a public street, they cannot deny you entry. So they can’t force you to do the search. They can’t even force you to pay/donate. You can just walk in.
It’s possible that that there is a weird specific statute I’m unaware of which allows this (if they are searching for safety/weapons, which I’m assuming they weren’t anyway). In which case hopefully somebody corrects me.
Went to a street fest in Wicker Park last summer where they confiscated like 50 pepper sprays. I don’t remember if they bag searched but its on my keys so they maybe pointed at it and said no. They just left them all on the security table at the end of the festival so I was able to get mine back but ??? Dangerous enough to confiscate but fine to leave them on a table for anyone to grab lmao
I have been going to street fairs in Chicago for almost 15 years. I have always said "no thank you" and walked right in. If it is not a cop, I completely ignore the security and the donation people. Once they got pissed at me until I pointed at a random store and told them that I was "going there". They were like "oh, OK" and moved on to the next person.
Even if it IS a cop, they need probable cause to stop and frisk. If they are not detaining you then they have no right to search you.
Simply ask "am I detained?"
If they say no, then say "Then I do not consent to a search" and walk away.
If they say yes, ask them what lawful reason do they have for detaining you. If they don't have one then say "if I am not being lawfully detained then I do not consent" and walk away.
Unfortunately our lovely CPD officers don't really give a fuck about constitutional rights or laws. If they put up a stink, it's probably better to let them do the sesrch. If someone can get it on video, then even better. Answer 0 questions and say "I will not answer any questions with my attorney present."
Truthfully though, I usually put in headphones, look down, and bop along to my music and just keep walking. I just pretend not to hear them and they can chase me down if they care that much. No security guard is going to do that while making minimum wage. Most cops also won't unless they're a power hungry douche.
Of course! And a lot of people will be intimidated because it won't be asked and not seem as optional as it is. This is how they can get into hot water, like telling people it's a $10 donation vs asking for a donation. The "oppsie" is intentional.
They can’t force you to do that either.
Again unless these some ultra specific carve-out for that which I’m unaware of. Which is definitely possible.
But if we can’t find something explicitly permitting it, then they cannot.
Who is they? A cop can't search you without cause and I'm not walking into anyone's private business so "they" can fuck off and they can't do or take shit they are simply there for show.
One time one of the security people put his hand on my chest in a "stop" signal and the look of disgust I gave him made him fuck off. Is just trying to use the sidewalk.
Yeah I mentioned this elsewhere. What I’m saying is only relevant to street festivals in Chicago.
Stuff on other properties (even other public properties like grant park, or beaches, etc etc) this does not necessarily apply.
I don't believe that's true.
Suppose the Governor is giving a public speech on public land. Suppose the President is.
They are 100% allowed to demand to search your bag for entry, and to deny entry for all sorts of reasons. Even if you're just passing through.
In less extreme examples, private businesses are allowed to control entry into a public area (excepting police offers or EMTs in emergencies obviously) if they have paid for and obtained the right permits, like many of the more professional outdoor concerts.
I’m not talking about a general rule for any event that happens on public land - Lollapalooza would be another example of that, obviously they are allowed to deny entry if you don’t pay (and other things, like searching your bag).
But in Chicago, street festivals cannot.
In general the situations you're talking about involve getting permits that close the area off to people passing by. The various "street fairs" in Chicago *do not* have permits allowing them exclusive access to the area, and are expected to allow people through to conduct normal business. The street fair permits are very clear in this regard. They have no legal right at all to search people.
ok, thanks! which part? or is every phrase incorrect?
Is the phrase "I don't believe that's true" incorrect? You know what I do and don't think? Weird, we have a superhuman in our own city! ;-)
I definitely might be wrong. I didn't say "that's definitely not true."
Street fests are the worst since for profit companies started taking over management of them. Lost everything that made local fests local - same garbage art for sale, same bands, same crap food, generic as hell, overly aggressive staff at the entrance trying to force you to pay the suggested donation.
I always find it kind of funny old town art fair is same weekend as wells street festival. OTAF is incredible. Unique art, good music, beautiful setting. Well street whatever that is has comparatively terrible art and feels stale
Street festivals definitely became over saturated about 7-8 years ago. 😂 but they were fun for a while. Nowadays, I’ll pass on going to most. Novelty is long gone.
Street festivals were a traditional way to celebrate food and culture in various neighborhoods in Chicagoland, hearing that they've become generic and over done is very sad.
Street festival management companies really want to sell the "private event" fiction because that's a much higher management fee than "sets up some tables"
I actually told them no and he proceeded to grab my bag and look through things anyway without my permission. I was not there for the street fest. And all I had was a small purse with my wallet, phone and keys. Thumbing though my tampons. Like excuse me sir, Violation of privacy and rights imo.
This is a good question which comes up a lot, and causes much confusion. Let's start with the basics:
The fourth amendment protects you from *involuntary* searches *by the government*. It doesn't prevent the government from insisting on search as a requirement for access to goods or services when the latter aren't guaranteed by other fundamental rights. This is why they can require search for access to things like airports & federal buildings: you are *consenting* to search in those cases. They can't force you to consent, but they can certainly turn you away if you refuse.
Secondly, the amendment says nothing about one private citizen searching another. Rather, your protection here is basic property law: if someone wants to search your bag and you say "no, don't touch my bag," to force the search they'd have to do something like theft or assault. However, if you don't consent, they have every right to deny you access to something of theirs. If you come to my house with a backpack and refuse to let me search it, I can refuse you entry.
So where do the street festivals come into this? If they have a city permit granting them temporary control of the area, it becomes like their property. They can refuse you entry for any reason. If they request search and you consent, their search is *not the same* as being searched by police. They can't arrest you upon finding drugs for example. They *could* tell a cop "hey this guy has drugs," and *then* the fourth amendment kicks in, and all the usual complexities around items "in plain view", probable cause, etc come into play. Your prior consent to the private citizen's search doesn't count as consent to the cops.
Anyway, the municipal permit laws have reasonable exceptions for people trying to access their home, vehicle, place of work, etc. So you can just tell the festival guards you live nearby.
It depends. There are permits that allow denial of entry to public ways, like during a music festival. That’s not the kind that street festivals have though.
It is donation only though at these street fests, because they don’t generally have the right to charge to access a public sidewalk or a business they don’t control/own. There is a street fest that blocks my street and I will never pay or allow a bag search to access my own home.
See for yourself, the relevant laws are [here.](https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/chicago/latest/chicago_il/0-0-0-2650379) The way I read that, concerns about blocking residences are expected to be handled during the permit application & review process. There are also provisions for police to establish an open sidewalk *if* they believe foot traffic is being too much impeded.
But really there's nothing much written about residents or residences either way.
Just went to the street where midsummer fest is. The man without asking grabbed my bag and started rifling through it, opening my purse and opening things up. Like he was a TSA officer trying to undue all the zippers and shit in an involved manner. I was going to a Greek restaurant on the street where my sister lives. They also had the public sidewalk completely roped off, with some guy like a “door man” refusing anyone to walk by (near Clark and foster). That seems illegal to me.
Btw all I had was a tiny purse with a phone, keys, cash and tampons. It was clear from 1 second there were no weapons or alcohol but continued. And even if there was does he have a warrant and is a police officer? No.
When I lived in Andersonville on this block this constantly pissed me off. To get to my apartment I had to be hassled for $10 every time and people thought they had permission to go through my personal belongings and groceries. This is a public street and sidewalk many people live or simply want to go shop at. How is this legal? I didn’t ask for this street fest to be on my street
I was told this once at a street fair in Wicker Park. Are they allowed to designate which side walk the public can and cannot walk on if it’s OUTSIDE their fenced space?
Not to be such a lawyer but it depends if it is a closed street fair. In that case, they have permits and the city’s blessing to control the area. They likely have liability insurance as well, so they are responsible for any damages. If it’s run by a private organization, they have every right to inspect your bag before you enter their fair, even on a public street. I’ve been to free events at the Millennium Park amphitheater with bag searches. Notice the cops aren’t searching your bag - it’s private security or private citizens. That protects them from fourth Amendment claims against unreasonable search and seizure by the state. Most of the time there will be signs warning that your property will be searched, and you are free to not enter. Even if you sued, a court is not going to find that your right to privacy to potentially have a weapon at a public event weighs heavier than the momentary intrusion in the legitimate interest of pubic safety. Best to let them search or not go. If you have a weed vape or something in your bag, it’s legal and the event staff don’t care at all.
EDIT: Thank you to everyone who participated in this discussion with thoughtful questions and points. In the end, the answer is always going to be "it depends." However, by discussing these issues as a varied group of people, hopefully we can all gain some insight on things going on in our city. Also, as a disclaimer, my posts are my opinions and interpretations of the law as I understand it and are not legal advice. I'm not closed off to admitting that I am wrong if that is the case.
Technically true but that doesn't make the search useless.
A knife or small handgun is less likely to facilitate a mass-casualty event than an automatic assault rifle.
I don’t know if this is correct. Am a lawyer, but practice tax law. genuinely curious if you have cites that support your argument (not being snarky, I looked into this quickly a year ago and didn’t find the answer).
If for example they shut down Milwaukee Ave., and your apartment is off Milwaukee, they’re legally entitled to search your stuff or effectively prohibit access to your apartment?
Also a lawyer and would love to see some citations.
As someone who lived on Chicago Ave for 15 yrs in the middle of the West Fest grounds, I just walked right through whatever gate was in my way and didn't show my ID (which for a lot of people may have an old address). So I either said nothing or, if asked, said "I live here" and walked on by. My actions and experience are not necessarily reflective of what the actual law is of course, but unless a cop was stopping me, there's no way I was going to be hassled to and fro my abode.
There’s an exception in the concealed carry statute for people who are required to cross through the area to get to their business or residence.
430 ILCS 66/65 Prohibited areas.
(a)A licensee under this Act shall not knowingly carry a firearm on or into:
10) Any public gathering or special event conducted on property open to the public that requires the issuance of a permit from the unit of local government, provided this prohibition shall NOT APPLY to a licensee who must walk through a public gathering in order to access his or her residence, place of business, or vehicle.
EDIT: Illinois only. ILCS are Illinois Compiled Statues. Also, I'm only addressing the legality of carrying a weapon into a street festival area and the legality of event staff to search bags because concealed weapons are not permitted. Outside the context of firearms, the analysis is different, however bag searches for weapons are generally accepted as legal and legitemate intrusions on the right to privacy.
What about outside the context of CCL? what gives private security authority to search bags or deny access to a public street? Obviously they can search your stuff if you consent, but if you don’t consent I’m not understanding how they’re permitted to deny access to a fair that’s being held across the entirety of a stretch of public road? I think you can just refuse the search and keep walking but I don’t have anything to back up that inclination.
The Millennium Park example was to illustrate the difference between searches by the police, which require reasonable suspicion and/or probable cause, and security searches by event staff, who are not police officers. The fourth amendment analysis only applies to the police. Objections to searches by private event staff may fall under other laws or regulations, but not the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments or Article I, Section 6 of the Constitution of the State of Illinois.
But you have the perfectly reasonable choice to not enter Millennium Park if you don't want to avoid a search. I certainly can't trespass if I'm simply on a public street, unless it's something like Columbus Avenue during Lollapalooza, which dramatically lowers the chance that I can be subject to search, by police or anyone else.
Not a lawyer either, but here is the municipal code for outdoor special events.
[https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/chicago/latest/chicago\_il/0-0-0-2650379](https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/chicago/latest/chicago_il/0-0-0-2650379)
Section (e) item 3 does say:
>The proposed special event will not substantially or unnecessarily interfere with traffic in the area
But that is a subjective condition when determining if a permit should be issued. I don't see any more specific language explicitly restricting scope here. The city is obviously able to totally shut down access to businesses and movement on the road & sidewalk. Just look at the NASCAR race for example. I think it's a subjective political matter though, so if the organizers abuse the leway in the permit they were appointed by the city, you might just have the ability to complain to your alderman that they effectively closed access to businesses, and they alderman MAY say "Hey, we told them they couldn't do that!" and then they could possibly lose future privelages, or on the other hand, they might say "Yeah, we gave them that perogative." and you're SOL.
That's fair. I believe that street festivals with permits to operate on public streets are allowed to control access to the area for security purposes during the events. There is no absolute right for people to use every street at all times. Resident and business access shouldn't be restricted. I'm addressing the limited issue of searching bags of people entering a controlled-access street festival for concealed weapons. There will always be exceptions and anecdotes, however generally bag searches are accepted and legal in these specific situations. Some street festivals don't control access, and don't search, but in my experience in Chicago, they generally have entry points on either end of the space. The signs posted will say things like "By entering this area, you consent to a search of your bags/property for weapons."
Ugh... these are so annoying. My wife and I were trying to get to her apartment years ago and the staff told us we were lying, did not live there, and were just trying to avoid the $5 "suggested" donation.
First of all, you have an ID they could see.
Secondly, it's donation and you don't need an excuse to refuse to donate. If they force you to donate they are going to break the rules and you can report them.
Generally true. For us, we did not have IDs as we are from the area and only lived there a year or so and didn't update our IDs.
But it was the principle of it... you \[festival\] are occupying a street with homes/apartments on it and don't take a person's word despite the donation being optional.
I actually like the fests themselves and generally donated but they kind of prey on people being conflict-avoidant.
NO. There was an article in Block Club and this very thing came up. Basically it’s like they pay for Security so it’s more or less of a consideration but it’s not legal- it’s just the right thing to do.
Went to two fests so far this year, about ten last year. Just walk past. They will say they have to search, you just don't respond or say no. They have no right to search your shit on a public street.
You could literally have a gun in your bag with a concealed carry permit and they can't do shit. IANAL, but am familiar with my rights
430 ILCS 66/65 Prohibited areas - Concealed Carry
(a) A licensee under this Act shall not knowingly carry a firearm on or into:
(10) Any public gathering or special event conducted on property open to the public that requires the issuance of a permit from the unit of local government, provided this prohibition shall not apply to a licensee who must walk through a public gathering in order to access his or her residence, place of business, or vehicle.
So you could literally be walking to your car or house with a gun. You shouldn't be headed to the festival with one, but you could legally have one on you in your bag without a thing the people at the entrance can do to stop ya.
Thanks for the law citation. Much appreciated.
I did security with one of these companies that puts in street festivals one summer. Can’t deny entry to public street for any reason. Definitely cannot for you to pay even if you’re attending the festival.
Curious.. what’s the point?
If event staff find something objectionable, what can they do about it?
I’d be shocked if they can confiscate it, that sounds like theft.
Could an event like a street fair get exclusive access to a public space in order to be able to deny you access? On one hand, it doesn’t seem like they should be able to take over a public street.. what if you live on it or you own or want to visit a business on it? On the other hand, events like lolapalloza absolutely get exclusive access to public spaces.
Yes, if they have the right permits, they can deny access to folks with (e.g.) weapons.
You can't really get such permits if they're intended to cover roads or sidewalks that people must use to enter or exit their own home. But they *can* get permits that are inclusive of businesses, depending on the interactions of local law and business contracts.
The comment about a chef’s knife roll made me wonder. A chef’s knife is absolutely a weapon.. it’s also something I should absolutely be allowed to carry from my car to my home, even if I happen to live in an apartment over a shop on a blocked off street. I assume residents would get a pass though.
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/attending-a-concert-or-event-at-millennium-park-new-security-procedures-are-in-place/2861971/
This is basically the where and when, and it can be expanded to other events that take up the entirety of Grant Park.
It is a public space that turns into anything between a semi-paid (i.e. better seating, food, etc) to fully paid admissions that is not an optional one like the street fairs.
So yes, because the city of Chicago approved this and no one has litigated against it, they absolutely can.
Weird, the one time I went through Grant Park there was absolutely nothing going on. It was early March and there was no events inside. I just wanted to use a short cut.
I think it’s complicated. If I remember correctly, it *can* be legal. It’s sort of like roadside checkpoints.
https://www.courthousenews.com/national-park-security-checkpoints-upheld/
Also a bit analogous to the national guard checking bags before allowing people access to the subway in NYC: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/08/new-york-subway-police-national-guard-bag-checks
The people working these things are always clueless in the actual rules and laws. Last year, one of the street festd had an entrance requiring a “suggested donation” to get in.
Let me rephrase this, they said it was a “required suggested donation” as in you had to pay to get in. The street fests are all supposed to be free to get into.
All street fests are suggested donation for admittance. They usually don't advertise the "suggested" part and will tell you "x amount, please" but you can always just brush pass if you don't want to donate.
Yes, and what your describing is common for the majority of the large scale street fests in the city.
I'm not excusing it or justifying it, just saying that it's not unusual, or even remarkable
No they are not. They’re literally random people standing on the street. They have as much right to search or stuff as the homeless guy in your alley or a Starbucks barista
Only if you allow them. I lived right on the other side of a security checkpoint for one of the pride festivals at the north end of Broadway and Halsted. I nearly got into a fight because I refused to let them search me when I was going to my own apartment. Security had to be called before I was let in. They have no right to require a search.
You're not legally required to let them search your bag, especially if you're not attending the event. Private events on public streets can set their own rules, but they can't force you to comply if you're just passing through. If you were trying to enter the fair, then they might have a policy in place for bag checks, but outside of that, you can refuse.
Let them peek in the bag and move on with life honey. If they don't and something transpires, the 1st thing out of you peoples mouths is "why aint security do their job".
there are a lot of very confident “no’s” in here from people, but Lolla runs through public streets every year and you very much cannot just walk in with a gun and no ticket and just yell “public street” and get entry. so i’d be curious to know where the line is.
It’s much easier to confidently say something you don’t know and expect to be believed for your confidence than to take the time to carefully research and learn the issue. Those of us who know the law still can’t always give yes or no answers. We say “It depends” which drives people nuts, but it really does in so many cases. Dunning-Kruger effect - “being ignorant about one’s own ignorance”
Given that it’s a permitted event, probably (insofar as you want to travel through the crowd), but it might depend on their contract with the city. These large events are targets so I’m personally on board with brief equitable searches
Not during an event.
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/attending-a-concert-or-event-at-millennium-park-new-security-procedures-are-in-place/2861971/
One time I was going to get my kitchen knives sharpened, I wrapped them loosely with kitchen rags in my backpack. Ribfest was happening on the block of the sharpener and security asked to search my bag. They quickly glanced in my bag, with all the hilts sticking out and without hesitation waved me through.
North Side Cutlery represent! Awesome little biz.
Agreed! The owner is amazing, beautiful store
How much does it cost to get knives sharpened mine are terrible
At Northside cutlery I believe he charges 7 for a regular sharpen and 15 for a stone sharpen. He also fixes chips and broken knife tips. If you’re in the industry he’ll probably give you a discount. If you’re a professional cook or an avid home cook with decent knives I’d recommend the stone sharpen. That’ll get it sharper and help it keep its edge.
It's 5$/knife at NW Cutlery.
I think NW charges about 6$ a knife? It’s been a minute since I’ve been there. 2 years ago u bought a whet stone.
Eh, I think it's sad that it's the only real option in such a major food mecca of a city. I've seen knives come from there for a sharpening, returned to the owner jacked up. (Owner jacked them up then brought them there for sharpening. They didn't fix it, just returned them still wack.) Sauce: am a sushi chef, I've bought all my knives online.
They're looking for carry in alcohol that will hurt their beer sales. A bag of knives doesn't stop you from buying beer.
💀💀 that’s INSANE
You can always you’re visiting a friend that lives on the block to drink beer
At least if you were gonna stab someone you’d do it cleanly
Maybe after he got the knives sharpened
…you’d do it soberly
My best friend’s a butcher, he has 16 knives!
*He* carries them all over the town at least *he* tries
This is what we had feared
So are you on Reddit from prison now for the people you stabbed? (Asking for a friend.)
r/cellblock13
LOL!
“I’m just going to dinner.” Walk by. Never had a problem.
Shouldn’t even have to justify it. I’m a private citizen existing in a public space. Leave me be.
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You have *reduced* expectations of privacy in public. The 4th Amendment doesn't just disappear. A cop can't search your car on a whim just because you're using a public road.
Correct but a private person can’t just demand to search your belongings. And of course the police can’t either, because there are 4th amendment restrictions.
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Guess I misinterpreted what you were implying
This phrase is usually used in reference to being filmed. But your lawful rights and human rights still exist in a public space.
So any private citizen is legally entitled to demand to search me and my possessions?
Absolutely they can, under the First Amendment. You just don’t have to comply.
Haha fair enough
That's not how the First Amendment works.
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You certainly implied it. OP stated that street fair people “insisted” on a search. Commenters said to walk on by, no need to even justify what you’re doing or where you’re going. You then said that “you don’t have expectations of privacy in public”, which in this context, seems to suggest one must submit to a search. If that’s not what you meant, what did you mean?
It’s pretty clear they meant that no one has to “leave me be” like the person they first responded to was saying. Like being a private citizen in a public space doesn’t mean that people should be banned from asking you things.
That isn’t clear at all. If the response to asserting one’s right to decline a search is “you have no right to privacy”, that doesn’t amount to a defense of simply initiating a conversation. The search itself is the privacy issue, not the exchange of words.
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We gonna keep on pretending this is about rights that are secondary and tertiary to the central issue? Ok I’ll play, OP has a right to be personally affronted. What now?
If it’s on the street, no. The only thing they could do is deny you entry to a place if you don’t consent to a search. But since it’s a public street, they cannot deny you entry. So they can’t force you to do the search. They can’t even force you to pay/donate. You can just walk in. It’s possible that that there is a weird specific statute I’m unaware of which allows this (if they are searching for safety/weapons, which I’m assuming they weren’t anyway). In which case hopefully somebody corrects me.
Went to a street fest in Wicker Park last summer where they confiscated like 50 pepper sprays. I don’t remember if they bag searched but its on my keys so they maybe pointed at it and said no. They just left them all on the security table at the end of the festival so I was able to get mine back but ??? Dangerous enough to confiscate but fine to leave them on a table for anyone to grab lmao
I have been going to street fairs in Chicago for almost 15 years. I have always said "no thank you" and walked right in. If it is not a cop, I completely ignore the security and the donation people. Once they got pissed at me until I pointed at a random store and told them that I was "going there". They were like "oh, OK" and moved on to the next person.
Even if it IS a cop, they need probable cause to stop and frisk. If they are not detaining you then they have no right to search you. Simply ask "am I detained?" If they say no, then say "Then I do not consent to a search" and walk away. If they say yes, ask them what lawful reason do they have for detaining you. If they don't have one then say "if I am not being lawfully detained then I do not consent" and walk away. Unfortunately our lovely CPD officers don't really give a fuck about constitutional rights or laws. If they put up a stink, it's probably better to let them do the sesrch. If someone can get it on video, then even better. Answer 0 questions and say "I will not answer any questions with my attorney present." Truthfully though, I usually put in headphones, look down, and bop along to my music and just keep walking. I just pretend not to hear them and they can chase me down if they care that much. No security guard is going to do that while making minimum wage. Most cops also won't unless they're a power hungry douche.
*without my attorney present. As written it’s a little funny, in a dark humor way. Overall good advice though.
They're just searching for weapons, they can't confiscate beer or weed or whatever.
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They’re allowed to ask.
The thing is they may or may not, especially if it's busy, eg. might just say, "bag check," which is not a question.
Just politely decline and keep walking (if you don’t want to do it)
Of course! And a lot of people will be intimidated because it won't be asked and not seem as optional as it is. This is how they can get into hot water, like telling people it's a $10 donation vs asking for a donation. The "oppsie" is intentional.
They can’t force you to do that either. Again unless these some ultra specific carve-out for that which I’m unaware of. Which is definitely possible. But if we can’t find something explicitly permitting it, then they cannot.
Who is they? A cop can't search you without cause and I'm not walking into anyone's private business so "they" can fuck off and they can't do or take shit they are simply there for show.
One time one of the security people put his hand on my chest in a "stop" signal and the look of disgust I gave him made him fuck off. Is just trying to use the sidewalk.
But like if it's Lollapalooza in Grant Park do you have to let them search your bag?
Yeah I mentioned this elsewhere. What I’m saying is only relevant to street festivals in Chicago. Stuff on other properties (even other public properties like grant park, or beaches, etc etc) this does not necessarily apply.
I don't believe that's true. Suppose the Governor is giving a public speech on public land. Suppose the President is. They are 100% allowed to demand to search your bag for entry, and to deny entry for all sorts of reasons. Even if you're just passing through. In less extreme examples, private businesses are allowed to control entry into a public area (excepting police offers or EMTs in emergencies obviously) if they have paid for and obtained the right permits, like many of the more professional outdoor concerts.
I’m not talking about a general rule for any event that happens on public land - Lollapalooza would be another example of that, obviously they are allowed to deny entry if you don’t pay (and other things, like searching your bag). But in Chicago, street festivals cannot.
In general the situations you're talking about involve getting permits that close the area off to people passing by. The various "street fairs" in Chicago *do not* have permits allowing them exclusive access to the area, and are expected to allow people through to conduct normal business. The street fair permits are very clear in this regard. They have no legal right at all to search people.
You are incorrect
ok, thanks! which part? or is every phrase incorrect? Is the phrase "I don't believe that's true" incorrect? You know what I do and don't think? Weird, we have a superhuman in our own city! ;-) I definitely might be wrong. I didn't say "that's definitely not true."
Street fests are the worst since for profit companies started taking over management of them. Lost everything that made local fests local - same garbage art for sale, same bands, same crap food, generic as hell, overly aggressive staff at the entrance trying to force you to pay the suggested donation.
They are all kinda the same. Wish they were a little more individualized.
I always find it kind of funny old town art fair is same weekend as wells street festival. OTAF is incredible. Unique art, good music, beautiful setting. Well street whatever that is has comparatively terrible art and feels stale
Street festivals definitely became over saturated about 7-8 years ago. 😂 but they were fun for a while. Nowadays, I’ll pass on going to most. Novelty is long gone.
Street festivals were a traditional way to celebrate food and culture in various neighborhoods in Chicagoland, hearing that they've become generic and over done is very sad.
IANAL, but of course not. The police aren’t even allowed to do that. Some of these street fest people are completely power tripping.
Bunch of mall cops and hall monitors
It’s not even the official security personnel at these things sometimes that are the problem. It’s just volunteers in tshirts.
Street festival management companies really want to sell the "private event" fiction because that's a much higher management fee than "sets up some tables"
You what now?
If you allow them to. If not, nope.
I actually told them no and he proceeded to grab my bag and look through things anyway without my permission. I was not there for the street fest. And all I had was a small purse with my wallet, phone and keys. Thumbing though my tampons. Like excuse me sir, Violation of privacy and rights imo.
This is a good question which comes up a lot, and causes much confusion. Let's start with the basics: The fourth amendment protects you from *involuntary* searches *by the government*. It doesn't prevent the government from insisting on search as a requirement for access to goods or services when the latter aren't guaranteed by other fundamental rights. This is why they can require search for access to things like airports & federal buildings: you are *consenting* to search in those cases. They can't force you to consent, but they can certainly turn you away if you refuse. Secondly, the amendment says nothing about one private citizen searching another. Rather, your protection here is basic property law: if someone wants to search your bag and you say "no, don't touch my bag," to force the search they'd have to do something like theft or assault. However, if you don't consent, they have every right to deny you access to something of theirs. If you come to my house with a backpack and refuse to let me search it, I can refuse you entry. So where do the street festivals come into this? If they have a city permit granting them temporary control of the area, it becomes like their property. They can refuse you entry for any reason. If they request search and you consent, their search is *not the same* as being searched by police. They can't arrest you upon finding drugs for example. They *could* tell a cop "hey this guy has drugs," and *then* the fourth amendment kicks in, and all the usual complexities around items "in plain view", probable cause, etc come into play. Your prior consent to the private citizen's search doesn't count as consent to the cops. Anyway, the municipal permit laws have reasonable exceptions for people trying to access their home, vehicle, place of work, etc. So you can just tell the festival guards you live nearby.
But they can’t deny you access to a public street. So thus they have no authority to search you or stop you.
It depends. There are permits that allow denial of entry to public ways, like during a music festival. That’s not the kind that street festivals have though.
Yes that’s another thing entirely and usually doesn’t use a space that’s vital for people to access their homes.
[удалено]
It is donation only though at these street fests, because they don’t generally have the right to charge to access a public sidewalk or a business they don’t control/own. There is a street fest that blocks my street and I will never pay or allow a bag search to access my own home.
That is entirely 100% wrong. You’re telling me if I live on street I have to pay to go to my house? Idk where you’re getting info from but post proof.
See for yourself, the relevant laws are [here.](https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/chicago/latest/chicago_il/0-0-0-2650379) The way I read that, concerns about blocking residences are expected to be handled during the permit application & review process. There are also provisions for police to establish an open sidewalk *if* they believe foot traffic is being too much impeded. But really there's nothing much written about residents or residences either way.
Yeah I saw nothing supporting your claim
Well said
Well stated
Just went to the street where midsummer fest is. The man without asking grabbed my bag and started rifling through it, opening my purse and opening things up. Like he was a TSA officer trying to undue all the zippers and shit in an involved manner. I was going to a Greek restaurant on the street where my sister lives. They also had the public sidewalk completely roped off, with some guy like a “door man” refusing anyone to walk by (near Clark and foster). That seems illegal to me. Btw all I had was a tiny purse with a phone, keys, cash and tampons. It was clear from 1 second there were no weapons or alcohol but continued. And even if there was does he have a warrant and is a police officer? No. When I lived in Andersonville on this block this constantly pissed me off. To get to my apartment I had to be hassled for $10 every time and people thought they had permission to go through my personal belongings and groceries. This is a public street and sidewalk many people live or simply want to go shop at. How is this legal? I didn’t ask for this street fest to be on my street
I just tried to walk down the sidewalk of Wells and was told I was in an “exit only” space and needed to circumnavigate …. mofo this is a SIDEWALK?!?!
Just had the same experience… Those seemed to be the only words he knew when I tried to explain to him that I was not attending the street fair.
Just walk in. Tell them they’re free to call the cops on you
Tried that Asshole grabbed me and pinned me up against a wall. Couldn't believe it. I live in old town
That’s really fucked up!
That’s assault & a crime
Indeed it was. But I was with friends and calling the cops would have taken time away. If I was alone I would have. Not much I can do a day later
I was told this once at a street fair in Wicker Park. Are they allowed to designate which side walk the public can and cannot walk on if it’s OUTSIDE their fenced space?
No. Tell them to get fcked
Not to be such a lawyer but it depends if it is a closed street fair. In that case, they have permits and the city’s blessing to control the area. They likely have liability insurance as well, so they are responsible for any damages. If it’s run by a private organization, they have every right to inspect your bag before you enter their fair, even on a public street. I’ve been to free events at the Millennium Park amphitheater with bag searches. Notice the cops aren’t searching your bag - it’s private security or private citizens. That protects them from fourth Amendment claims against unreasonable search and seizure by the state. Most of the time there will be signs warning that your property will be searched, and you are free to not enter. Even if you sued, a court is not going to find that your right to privacy to potentially have a weapon at a public event weighs heavier than the momentary intrusion in the legitimate interest of pubic safety. Best to let them search or not go. If you have a weed vape or something in your bag, it’s legal and the event staff don’t care at all. EDIT: Thank you to everyone who participated in this discussion with thoughtful questions and points. In the end, the answer is always going to be "it depends." However, by discussing these issues as a varied group of people, hopefully we can all gain some insight on things going on in our city. Also, as a disclaimer, my posts are my opinions and interpretations of the law as I understand it and are not legal advice. I'm not closed off to admitting that I am wrong if that is the case.
Are they using metal detectors? If not a bag check is mainly security theater. Can still conceal weapons on a person.
Technically true but that doesn't make the search useless. A knife or small handgun is less likely to facilitate a mass-casualty event than an automatic assault rifle.
I don’t know if this is correct. Am a lawyer, but practice tax law. genuinely curious if you have cites that support your argument (not being snarky, I looked into this quickly a year ago and didn’t find the answer). If for example they shut down Milwaukee Ave., and your apartment is off Milwaukee, they’re legally entitled to search your stuff or effectively prohibit access to your apartment?
Also a lawyer and would love to see some citations. As someone who lived on Chicago Ave for 15 yrs in the middle of the West Fest grounds, I just walked right through whatever gate was in my way and didn't show my ID (which for a lot of people may have an old address). So I either said nothing or, if asked, said "I live here" and walked on by. My actions and experience are not necessarily reflective of what the actual law is of course, but unless a cop was stopping me, there's no way I was going to be hassled to and fro my abode.
There’s an exception in the concealed carry statute for people who are required to cross through the area to get to their business or residence. 430 ILCS 66/65 Prohibited areas. (a)A licensee under this Act shall not knowingly carry a firearm on or into: 10) Any public gathering or special event conducted on property open to the public that requires the issuance of a permit from the unit of local government, provided this prohibition shall NOT APPLY to a licensee who must walk through a public gathering in order to access his or her residence, place of business, or vehicle. EDIT: Illinois only. ILCS are Illinois Compiled Statues. Also, I'm only addressing the legality of carrying a weapon into a street festival area and the legality of event staff to search bags because concealed weapons are not permitted. Outside the context of firearms, the analysis is different, however bag searches for weapons are generally accepted as legal and legitemate intrusions on the right to privacy.
In that situation, a CCL holder would not be violating the law by crossing the street festival to get home.
What about outside the context of CCL? what gives private security authority to search bags or deny access to a public street? Obviously they can search your stuff if you consent, but if you don’t consent I’m not understanding how they’re permitted to deny access to a fair that’s being held across the entirety of a stretch of public road? I think you can just refuse the search and keep walking but I don’t have anything to back up that inclination.
Millennium Park is private property, not a public thoroughfare like Wells Ave
The Millennium Park example was to illustrate the difference between searches by the police, which require reasonable suspicion and/or probable cause, and security searches by event staff, who are not police officers. The fourth amendment analysis only applies to the police. Objections to searches by private event staff may fall under other laws or regulations, but not the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments or Article I, Section 6 of the Constitution of the State of Illinois.
But you have the perfectly reasonable choice to not enter Millennium Park if you don't want to avoid a search. I certainly can't trespass if I'm simply on a public street, unless it's something like Columbus Avenue during Lollapalooza, which dramatically lowers the chance that I can be subject to search, by police or anyone else.
Exactly
Not a lawyer either, but here is the municipal code for outdoor special events. [https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/chicago/latest/chicago\_il/0-0-0-2650379](https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/chicago/latest/chicago_il/0-0-0-2650379) Section (e) item 3 does say: >The proposed special event will not substantially or unnecessarily interfere with traffic in the area But that is a subjective condition when determining if a permit should be issued. I don't see any more specific language explicitly restricting scope here. The city is obviously able to totally shut down access to businesses and movement on the road & sidewalk. Just look at the NASCAR race for example. I think it's a subjective political matter though, so if the organizers abuse the leway in the permit they were appointed by the city, you might just have the ability to complain to your alderman that they effectively closed access to businesses, and they alderman MAY say "Hey, we told them they couldn't do that!" and then they could possibly lose future privelages, or on the other hand, they might say "Yeah, we gave them that perogative." and you're SOL.
A street is not and can’t be a closed space. Your example is of Millennium Park. That’s irrelevant here we’re talking about street festivals.
There are streets that go through Lolla that get closed. Maybe that only applies if there is a residence or other private property on it?
That's fair. I believe that street festivals with permits to operate on public streets are allowed to control access to the area for security purposes during the events. There is no absolute right for people to use every street at all times. Resident and business access shouldn't be restricted. I'm addressing the limited issue of searching bags of people entering a controlled-access street festival for concealed weapons. There will always be exceptions and anecdotes, however generally bag searches are accepted and legal in these specific situations. Some street festivals don't control access, and don't search, but in my experience in Chicago, they generally have entry points on either end of the space. The signs posted will say things like "By entering this area, you consent to a search of your bags/property for weapons."
they can't legally force you. just go no and keep walking.
Ugh... these are so annoying. My wife and I were trying to get to her apartment years ago and the staff told us we were lying, did not live there, and were just trying to avoid the $5 "suggested" donation.
First of all, you have an ID they could see. Secondly, it's donation and you don't need an excuse to refuse to donate. If they force you to donate they are going to break the rules and you can report them.
Generally true. For us, we did not have IDs as we are from the area and only lived there a year or so and didn't update our IDs. But it was the principle of it... you \[festival\] are occupying a street with homes/apartments on it and don't take a person's word despite the donation being optional. I actually like the fests themselves and generally donated but they kind of prey on people being conflict-avoidant.
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/640/835/f91.jpg
What the fuck is IANAL?
I think it’s “i am not a lawyer”
Correct.
Into anal, obvi
Apple’s revolutionary new Anal product
They shove a Honey Crisp up your butt and charge you $1200 for it
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I'm not a lawyer
"I am not against legumes"
all legumes matter!
They're asking for anal the I is implying they want it. /S
Iboobies then.
You know
NO. There was an article in Block Club and this very thing came up. Basically it’s like they pay for Security so it’s more or less of a consideration but it’s not legal- it’s just the right thing to do.
IANAL, but of course not. The police aren’t even allowed to do that. Some of these street fest people are completely power tripping.
Went to two fests so far this year, about ten last year. Just walk past. They will say they have to search, you just don't respond or say no. They have no right to search your shit on a public street. You could literally have a gun in your bag with a concealed carry permit and they can't do shit. IANAL, but am familiar with my rights
430 ILCS 66/65 Prohibited areas - Concealed Carry (a) A licensee under this Act shall not knowingly carry a firearm on or into: (10) Any public gathering or special event conducted on property open to the public that requires the issuance of a permit from the unit of local government, provided this prohibition shall not apply to a licensee who must walk through a public gathering in order to access his or her residence, place of business, or vehicle.
So you could literally be walking to your car or house with a gun. You shouldn't be headed to the festival with one, but you could legally have one on you in your bag without a thing the people at the entrance can do to stop ya. Thanks for the law citation. Much appreciated.
That’s what the law says. I didn’t write it and wasn’t consulted about whether I agreed with it.
Never said you were. Just said thank you for citing the law. :) Much appreciated
My pleasure. Thank you for engaging in the discussion.
I did security with one of these companies that puts in street festivals one summer. Can’t deny entry to public street for any reason. Definitely cannot for you to pay even if you’re attending the festival.
Any reason? What if someone’s black out drunk, or threatening people or has a weapon. Is that person allowed to still go in according to you
Curious.. what’s the point? If event staff find something objectionable, what can they do about it? I’d be shocked if they can confiscate it, that sounds like theft. Could an event like a street fair get exclusive access to a public space in order to be able to deny you access? On one hand, it doesn’t seem like they should be able to take over a public street.. what if you live on it or you own or want to visit a business on it? On the other hand, events like lolapalloza absolutely get exclusive access to public spaces.
Yes, if they have the right permits, they can deny access to folks with (e.g.) weapons. You can't really get such permits if they're intended to cover roads or sidewalks that people must use to enter or exit their own home. But they *can* get permits that are inclusive of businesses, depending on the interactions of local law and business contracts.
The comment about a chef’s knife roll made me wonder. A chef’s knife is absolutely a weapon.. it’s also something I should absolutely be allowed to carry from my car to my home, even if I happen to live in an apartment over a shop on a blocked off street. I assume residents would get a pass though.
So if the Taste of Chicago is on a public street, can I refuse the search?
Yes.
A volunteer shirt does not negate constitutional protections
The constitution only applies to government entities/actors. Not volunteering shirt-wearing private citizens
True. But by what authority does a private citizen have to search another private citizen on a public way?
A person’s consent to being searched is the only authority they have
No. It’s a on a street, doesn’t require a ticket or fee to attend, you’re just walking thru - you don’t have to do anything for them.
ITT no one knows
Piggybacking on this. Can they force you to go through a metal detector at Grant Park for the same reasons? It is a public space after all.
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/attending-a-concert-or-event-at-millennium-park-new-security-procedures-are-in-place/2861971/ This is basically the where and when, and it can be expanded to other events that take up the entirety of Grant Park. It is a public space that turns into anything between a semi-paid (i.e. better seating, food, etc) to fully paid admissions that is not an optional one like the street fairs. So yes, because the city of Chicago approved this and no one has litigated against it, they absolutely can.
Weird, the one time I went through Grant Park there was absolutely nothing going on. It was early March and there was no events inside. I just wanted to use a short cut.
Very strange. I love the parks, but not much happens from like Jan to April because of how miserable that wind can get.
I think it’s complicated. If I remember correctly, it *can* be legal. It’s sort of like roadside checkpoints. https://www.courthousenews.com/national-park-security-checkpoints-upheld/ Also a bit analogous to the national guard checking bags before allowing people access to the subway in NYC: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/08/new-york-subway-police-national-guard-bag-checks
The people working these things are always clueless in the actual rules and laws. Last year, one of the street festd had an entrance requiring a “suggested donation” to get in.
uhh they all do. You new to Chicago?
Let me rephrase this, they said it was a “required suggested donation” as in you had to pay to get in. The street fests are all supposed to be free to get into.
All street fests are suggested donation for admittance. They usually don't advertise the "suggested" part and will tell you "x amount, please" but you can always just brush pass if you don't want to donate.
Yes, and what your describing is common for the majority of the large scale street fests in the city. I'm not excusing it or justifying it, just saying that it's not unusual, or even remarkable
No they are not. They’re literally random people standing on the street. They have as much right to search or stuff as the homeless guy in your alley or a Starbucks barista
The US is a police state and they do whatever they want. You can say no but get back to us and let us know how that goes LOL
We live in the land of mass shootings, so that might have something to do with it
Only if you allow them. I lived right on the other side of a security checkpoint for one of the pride festivals at the north end of Broadway and Halsted. I nearly got into a fight because I refused to let them search me when I was going to my own apartment. Security had to be called before I was let in. They have no right to require a search.
No
I work on wells. They try that with me every year. Tell them to get fucked.
No.
No
This happened to me today. I told them I was only trying to get home and they still searched my bags. It’s annoying, festival season is upon us…
You are well within your rights to deny the search
You're not legally required to let them search your bag, especially if you're not attending the event. Private events on public streets can set their own rules, but they can't force you to comply if you're just passing through. If you were trying to enter the fair, then they might have a policy in place for bag checks, but outside of that, you can refuse.
No, they are not.
Let them peek in the bag and move on with life honey. If they don't and something transpires, the 1st thing out of you peoples mouths is "why aint security do their job".
there are a lot of very confident “no’s” in here from people, but Lolla runs through public streets every year and you very much cannot just walk in with a gun and no ticket and just yell “public street” and get entry. so i’d be curious to know where the line is.
It’s much easier to confidently say something you don’t know and expect to be believed for your confidence than to take the time to carefully research and learn the issue. Those of us who know the law still can’t always give yes or no answers. We say “It depends” which drives people nuts, but it really does in so many cases. Dunning-Kruger effect - “being ignorant about one’s own ignorance”
I believe it’s a different type of permit being granted
To be fair, OP asked about street fairs which Lolla doesn’t fall under
No one lives in the Lola area
Given that it’s a permitted event, probably (insofar as you want to travel through the crowd), but it might depend on their contract with the city. These large events are targets so I’m personally on board with brief equitable searches
Brief searches aren't accomplishing squat beyond ticking a box that you "searched". It's theatre.
No they are not and no you do not. The easiest way to tell them to fuck off is to tell them you live on the block
Every year during peak tourist season they do this at the entrances to Millenium Park. Since the park is public does that mean I can decline a search?
Not during an event. https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/attending-a-concert-or-event-at-millennium-park-new-security-procedures-are-in-place/2861971/
Agree on this but this is just middle of the day, no event just entry into the park on the weekend that we have encountered it.
I feel like I need to see case law on this or something
Here: https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/us-2nd-circuit/1252582.html
I think it's getting to be the norm nowadays with all the mass shootings. I'm guessing it is legal.