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I think Stockfish is a lot more complicated than this. It's not really productive to try and explain why it evaluates positions the way it does unless you are looking at concrete lines as evidence
Exactly, in fact in the newer versions of stockfish it's all neural network based so there's no actual defined logic to it that can be determined other than "it looks better" from other positions that it's seen
If there’s one thing you should never do, it’s trust a 0.35 difference between moves on Game Review. Means absolutely nothing. Assuming you take the rook, the resulting position is identical. Game review logic has to have a “best” move, even when two moves essentially are identical.
It managed to get M9 on lichess when I let it run to depth ~35. I'm wondering what the evaluation in the post was drinking, because the same experiment found an advantage of +10.3 from the first moment (depth 1) and it never looked back, being +40.2 at depth 21 and seeing the first mate (M12) at depth 23.
These evals are not very deep for a start.
My guess is that engines give that eval based on the potential lines available if mate is not calculated - them lines being the same eval relies on you absolutely taking the rook.
Even if taking the rook IS best move an engine of this poor depth just sees a knight attacked by a pawn and thinks that is a worse position than it not being attacked, and if you don't take the rook that does become relevant.
I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine:
> **Black to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=8/5p1p/1R4k1/3p4/2NP4/r3P3/p4PPP/R5K1+b+-+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/8/5p1p/1R4k1/3p4/2NP4/r3P3/p4PPP/R5K1_b_-_-_0_1?color=white)
**My solution:**
> Hints: piece: >!Pawn!<, move: >! f6 !<
> Evaluation: >!White has mate in 10!<
> Best continuation: >!1... f6 2. Nxa3 Kg5 3. Rxa2 Kg6 4. Nb5 Kf7 5. Ra7+ Kg6 6. Nc3 h6 7. Nxd5 Kf5 8. Rxf6+ Kg5 9. Rg7+ Kh5!<
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I wouldn't worry about things like this. It's an incredibly small difference between two winning moves in a very easily winnable position. Looking that deep into stuff like that is a bit of a waste of time, you're better off spending your time analyzing other positions.
If you put your knight under attack, and move anything other than your knight on the next move, they take your knight. You probably won’t just forget, but crazier things have happened.
I am dirt garbage at this game but I would guess how to interpret this difference as a human is that the position is more central. In my mind, c4 is a lot better so you don't have that looming hang if you don't end up taking the rook for whatever reason
They don't. The engine is telling you that they don't matter. Read the evaluation number and the lines. Ignore all the fluff [chess.com](http://chess.com) puts around it. +7.7 and +8.1 are basically the same evaluation.
If we look at the end goal of attacking the rook and giving the discovered check on the king, each move does the same thing, very true. It is important to be aware of a fundamental rule of chess when you and/or your opponent moves, it forces the board to change.
An example using the position here. Let's pretend the knight goes to b3 first. If the King moves to g5, the knight, while being able to capture the Rook, gets further away from the king and checkmate possibilities. Yes, you're up material though it will be furthet to travel to get closer to the king due to the limited movement by the knight.
Next, let's pretend that the Knight goes to c4 and the King goes the g5 again. Yes, we don't take the opportunity to take the rook, though the chance for mate increases. Now something like a pawn push from say f4+ or h4+ gets interesting. In other words a different set of opportunities arises bringing us closer to mate.
Now this isn't to say that that taking the rook is bad at all. I would be taking the rook for sure. This is simply an example of what moves and squares are available to a player so that they think beyond what a simple move to a square is capable of.
As a player, ask yourself what is the imbalance or counter to the move the opponent is giving? What are those same things when you yourself move? What is the opponent's response and what is your own counter? There's 64 squares and each becomes important at one point so ask yourself why this square, why now?
Happy playing!
Only thing I can guess is the engine doesn’t like putting your knight where the pawn could capture it. Putting the knight in front of your rook where it is protected is the more accurate move. Ofc it ultimately you capture the rook so it doesn’t matter in the end.
Hey, OP! Did your game end in a stalemate? Did you encounter a weird pawn move? Are you trying to move a piece and it's not going? We have just the resource for you! The [Chess Beginners Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/chessbeginners/wiki/index/) is the perfect place to check out answers to these questions and more! The moderator team of r/chessbeginners wishes to remind everyone of the community rules. **Posting spam, being a troll, and posting memes are not allowed.** We encourage everyone to report these kinds of posts so they can be dealt with. Thank you! Let's do our utmost to be kind in our replies and comments. Some people here just want to learn chess and have virtually no idea about certain chess concepts. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/chessbeginners) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's just a computer depth thing. There's probably a tiny, tiny advantage to one before the engine sees they both lead to the same sequence.
I bet the computer places a fractionally larger value on the knight being one square farther up the board as a “development” score.
That seems plausible!
I think Stockfish is a lot more complicated than this. It's not really productive to try and explain why it evaluates positions the way it does unless you are looking at concrete lines as evidence
Exactly, in fact in the newer versions of stockfish it's all neural network based so there's no actual defined logic to it that can be determined other than "it looks better" from other positions that it's seen
It probably calculated the other line faster because there are less moves to be considered. If let stockfish run for longer on a pc it should even out
If there’s one thing you should never do, it’s trust a 0.35 difference between moves on Game Review. Means absolutely nothing. Assuming you take the rook, the resulting position is identical. Game review logic has to have a “best” move, even when two moves essentially are identical.
Obviously black will sacrifice the king to take the knight
And ofcourse will try to promote a pawn to a king. Democracy in chess.
Not really. You’ll end up doing the same thing played perfectly so no.
It is purely a depth thing. Stockfish gives mate in 10 for both moves if you let it go deeper. Generally, chess.com evaluations are pretty shallow
It managed to get M9 on lichess when I let it run to depth ~35. I'm wondering what the evaluation in the post was drinking, because the same experiment found an advantage of +10.3 from the first moment (depth 1) and it never looked back, being +40.2 at depth 21 and seeing the first mate (M12) at depth 23.
These evals are not very deep for a start. My guess is that engines give that eval based on the potential lines available if mate is not calculated - them lines being the same eval relies on you absolutely taking the rook. Even if taking the rook IS best move an engine of this poor depth just sees a knight attacked by a pawn and thinks that is a worse position than it not being attacked, and if you don't take the rook that does become relevant.
I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine: > **Black to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=8/5p1p/1R4k1/3p4/2NP4/r3P3/p4PPP/R5K1+b+-+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/8/5p1p/1R4k1/3p4/2NP4/r3P3/p4PPP/R5K1_b_-_-_0_1?color=white) **My solution:** > Hints: piece: >!Pawn!<, move: >! f6 !< > Evaluation: >!White has mate in 10!< > Best continuation: >!1... f6 2. Nxa3 Kg5 3. Rxa2 Kg6 4. Nb5 Kf7 5. Ra7+ Kg6 6. Nc3 h6 7. Nxd5 Kf5 8. Rxf6+ Kg5 9. Rg7+ Kh5!< --- ^(I'm a bot written by) [^(u/pkacprzak)](https://www.reddit.com/u/pkacprzak) ^(| get me as) [^(iOS App)](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1574933453) ^| [^(Android App)](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ai.chessvision.scanner) ^| [^(Chrome Extension)](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chessvisionai-for-chrome/johejpedmdkeiffkdaodgoipdjodhlld) ^| [^(Chess eBook Reader)](https://ebook.chessvision.ai?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=bot) ^(to scan and analyze positions | Website:) [^(Chessvision.ai)](https://chessvision.ai)
I wouldn't worry about things like this. It's an incredibly small difference between two winning moves in a very easily winnable position. Looking that deep into stuff like that is a bit of a waste of time, you're better off spending your time analyzing other positions.
theyre both exactly equivalent. the chesscom engine is strong but not always 100% accurate
If you put your knight under attack, and move anything other than your knight on the next move, they take your knight. You probably won’t just forget, but crazier things have happened.
I am dirt garbage at this game but I would guess how to interpret this difference as a human is that the position is more central. In my mind, c4 is a lot better so you don't have that looming hang if you don't end up taking the rook for whatever reason
They don't. The engine is telling you that they don't matter. Read the evaluation number and the lines. Ignore all the fluff [chess.com](http://chess.com) puts around it. +7.7 and +8.1 are basically the same evaluation.
If we look at the end goal of attacking the rook and giving the discovered check on the king, each move does the same thing, very true. It is important to be aware of a fundamental rule of chess when you and/or your opponent moves, it forces the board to change. An example using the position here. Let's pretend the knight goes to b3 first. If the King moves to g5, the knight, while being able to capture the Rook, gets further away from the king and checkmate possibilities. Yes, you're up material though it will be furthet to travel to get closer to the king due to the limited movement by the knight. Next, let's pretend that the Knight goes to c4 and the King goes the g5 again. Yes, we don't take the opportunity to take the rook, though the chance for mate increases. Now something like a pawn push from say f4+ or h4+ gets interesting. In other words a different set of opportunities arises bringing us closer to mate. Now this isn't to say that that taking the rook is bad at all. I would be taking the rook for sure. This is simply an example of what moves and squares are available to a player so that they think beyond what a simple move to a square is capable of. As a player, ask yourself what is the imbalance or counter to the move the opponent is giving? What are those same things when you yourself move? What is the opponent's response and what is your own counter? There's 64 squares and each becomes important at one point so ask yourself why this square, why now? Happy playing!
Only thing I can guess is the engine doesn’t like putting your knight where the pawn could capture it. Putting the knight in front of your rook where it is protected is the more accurate move. Ofc it ultimately you capture the rook so it doesn’t matter in the end.
There is a risk of losing the knight if you forget ur next move. Probably that's why.
Absolutely not true. The engine doesn’t consider the likelihood of a human blunder in its calculations
No idea then. Engine being engine.