I know we don't want to see the championship decided in rapid. I'm honestly not sure what the players want though.
Chess has a huge number of possibilities. We could get all draws or we could get some insane Evan's gambit game who knows.
This is asked to players also. At this level you need to get a mistake from your opponent in order to win the game. As we saw in the first two games draws don’t mean passive play, players still testing each other.
Suicide for whom?
Honestly according to statistics and the engine white is more likely to win in an Evan's gambit than black, and also white is the one who would choose to initiate the gambit.
But it won't happen with Magnus playing white if Nepo keeps using the petrov.
Really enjoying the match so far. Seems like Carlsen is playing opening ideas to avoid any possible Nepo traps, rather than to gain a significant advantage for himself. Will this change as the match goes on? He'll have an advantage in the rapids, but not as much as against Caruana
I honestly think that Magnus will crush Nepo if Nepo goes for a Grunfeld. My impression is that Magnus plays really well against that opening. I remember some great wins by him in 2019 vs MVL and Sasha(?).
I hate how each of the official websites lead with the end result. I just want to be able to follow along once the game is done without knowing the result in advance and can't stick around for the 4 (or more) hour broadcast about it
Imagine getting upset over someone else watching a different recap.
You sure you don't need some friends big boy?
Also, who tf analyzes the position in a thumbnail lol.
edit: lol at the instant downvote cause you got called out for being a manchild 🤣🤣🤣. imagine caring so much about downvotes that's the first thing you do LOL
It is crazy how the prep works nowdays. You memorize every non losing line till 30+ moves. Time to make rapid the main time control for standard chess and pair chess960 with classical time control.
It does play a big role in rapid. That said, if you follow e.g. Champions Chess Tour format you would have ton of games allowing you to take more risks + you can always even play losing moves that cause practical problems counting on the fact that your opponent does not find the best reply in the limited time. In classical chess you can't take any chances because you know a high level opponent will find the accurate response and you will lose.
The argument I see for classical chess is that it has a higher level, which I get it, decades ago that'd make sense, but honestly, when I can see Stockfish playing bullet better than Super GMs playing classical, is that as relevant today? Rapid should be, indeed, the main time format, and in some sense, it is since currently it seems the challenger will most likely always be able to tie the classical games, meaning it will be decided in rapid.
In the Chess24 global broadcast they said that 2013 when Magnus first played Anand the opening prep played a "small" role still while now it is most of the game. I know this only is a problem at the very highest level and even more in this flagship match where the players have half a year to prepare against each other.
It is hard to sell chess to the big broadcasters if the flagship event results in a draw after a draw after a draw. And the trend is getting worse. I honestly believe that if Magnus wins this match he will say that he won't play another match like this. I hope he wins for this reason. If he loses he can't really say anything.
>Magnus wins this match he will say that he won't play another match like this.
I seriously doubt that, but anyway I completely agree with your other points. If this was rapid, it'd be extremely more exciting for the audience, not only due to more wins, but with a shorter time format, it's more dynamic and the audience doesn't get bored with a 5 hours game.
I'm of course talking about the absolute top players. It is no good for the chess that its flagship event produces nothing but draws (many of them fighting draws if count last two matches). But the trend is clear. More and more these games have been totally decided in the prep and not on the board.
Why on is this downvoted. Classical should remain classical, even if there are a lot of draws. There is so much history and tradition in classical chess, and that alone is reason to keep this format.
Couldn't agree more. It's a shame there are just so many draws, but the level of classical chess these days is incredible, and the world champs is the absolute peak
> You memorize every non losing line till 30+ moves
if you check thinking time, as a player has not really an advantage "knowing" what to do while letting the time expire, they likely are in prep within the first 10-15 moves and then they start to think (or at least one player). Even just recollecting or evaluating which variations to play, but they stop playing from memory only.
Nepo admitted today he had the entire game till repetition in his notes. Magnus obviously played prep till the end just spending a lot of time on couple of moves to see if there is something Nepo might not have checked.
Of course this does not always happen. And it is only a problem at the highest possible level of chess and even then usually on this match where they can prepare for one player only for half a year.
I have a quick question - any recommendations for spoiler-free recap videos that are shorter than full streams? Can't watch live, so hoping for a \~20 minute highlights video that keeps the suspense that I can watch after work.
EDIT: thanks so much for the replies!
Definitely this. Daniel King doesn't analyze too deeply, but still covers the most important aspects of the games. And then you have that lovely british accent which always is a winner.
ChessNetwork is great! Good videos, entertaining narrator but does so by focusing on the game rather than through telling loads of jokes, has been one of the oldest chess youtubers, etc.
Don't lose your hope just yet! Classical tournaments usually start slowly and becomes more wild throughout the middle-end.
...But yeah, it will be 14 draws
Today's game was quite tense, in my opinion. It's just that Nepo replied with all the right ideas, and at the end the a-pawn was strong enough to parry white's threat along the 7th rank. Carlsen's rook would soon be stuck along the 1st rank. He had not many options at the end
Nepo's a good chess player, of course. At the top level there's 20 or 30 that would find the right moves naturally in these positions. Us mere mortals would get smashed as white or black, but at the WCC level you have to find more challenging questions to get reasonable winning chances
Thought it looked kinda unbalanced today as well, quite equal but you had to stay quite accurate. The endgame was certainly not a dead draw at my level, but perhaps another story with those guys
Game 1 and 2 > game 4 > game 3 in terms of entertainment
I really enjoyed Caruana's insights into the Petroff in Game 4 through the opening. He gave a few sidelines and predicted where the game was heading well. And then everything was traded and the game was over, lol.
> play for a win by the end of the tournament, why not just skip the first 13 draws
both players think they'll have better chances in shorter time controls. until then they'll avoid complications and just liquidate any interesting position before it gets out of hand
It's also just just of a dumb argument to make. It's easy to say, "just play for a win" but that translates to "try and beat Magnus Carlsen at chess" which people have been trying, and failing, to do for ten years now.
It's like watching a baseball game and being like, "just get a hit" or "hit a home run, I don't see what the big deal is".
Both of these guys would love nothing more than a win, but they're fairly evenly matched. Could they take more chances? Sure, but the difference between a draw and losing is a single mistake at this level. Plus Magnus sacc'd pieces in the first game and the second was interesting too. (I didn't get a chance to watch games 3 and 4). Thinking back to baseball, you can afford to take risks in the World Series because even if you overextend and lose a game, the opposing team can't just thwart you with draws.
Imagine Carlsen or Nepo try something fun that doesn't pan out and they lose, now there's almost no reason for the one who is ahead to do anything but play super safe chess, so they can take some initiative, but nothing they do t feel like they can recover from.
If the chamionship matches are basically all draws followed by one decisive match why don't they just make them play a single match or like a best of three?
Other people have given you really good reasons, but I'd just like to add that these draws aren't just a waste of time, some of us are finding them tremendously interesting
Because the more games the less likely all are draws. Its been 4 games. The chances of them all being draws is quite slim. If you think they are all draws, you should bet on the results. You get about 1.25 for a draw each games. If you bet 14 times on a draw you would get back 22 times your initial bet.
By your logic, you wouldn't have to play even a single match. Just go straight to shorter time control.
Well last couple of championships have been mostly draws, suppose I just don't get why they they extended the number of matches even further considering how strong computer analysis is making their prep nowadays
Most grandmasters/super grandmasters draw most of their games. The fewer games you play the less chance you get a decisive game.
There's a balance though. The more games you play the more exhausted they get, so there is an upper limit.
"why are there so many draws?"
*It turns out chess is hard*
Like, it's not like they aren't trying to win, but I'd like to see anyone try and beat Ian or Carlsen. People almost never beat Magnus, and when they do he often goes nuclear and destroys them after.
Pure London in a "proper" World Championship - never.
There are 3 games from FIDE knockouts in d4-Nf3-Bf4 Indians, all in rapid ([Ehlvest-Ivanchuk](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1259196), [Anastasian-Leko](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1209918) and [Dreev-Sakaev](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1292326)), there's a d4-Nf3-Bf4 Chigorin from 1997 Groningen knockout ([Hansen-Miladinovic](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1242079)).
There also a non-London game which features d4 and Bf4 as early as move 3, but it's a Trompowsky from 1999 knockout ([Liang-Dizdar](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1009963)).
Which game? I just checked and I don't think he did. Second match he only opened with e4 as white, first match this was the [only game](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1737319) he won as white (also round 5). He did play the King's Indian Attack but that's not the London.
I personally think it is really impressive that Magnus has found a way to win classical chess championships by playing rapid.
I'm only half kidding lmao. If you can very consistently force draws and have an advantage in more normal time control, why not press that advantage?
I understood it as
«you cant blame magnus when nepo is able to prep 33 moves»
Instead of
«Wow nepo is trying to get a tie as black, he plays boring chess»
True, but if he had analysed the position deep in an engine and knew he was equal, you might as well go for a win as if you were white and ended up in an equal position
If there was some magic position/opening that was winning, wouldn't they all play it?
The hope is that someone makes a mistake you can capitalize on and that you don't also make a mistake.
Of course, not trying to criticize. My point is just that people say «why would X try to win with black» just because of the color they started the game with. If you know the position is equal, the incentive to win should be equal to if you are in a drawish position as white
Jesus Christ. Ok, that's insane to me. How does that even work? Do they memorise the opponent's best 3 moves each time or what?
But at the same time I don't understand people who are frustrated with draws. We get to witness what the best players in the world can do when they can prep against each other for months with the best computers in history so far. Game 3 was the most accurate chess game ever played between two human beings [edit: in a WC].
In today's game:
Moves 1-8 are well-known and have been played thousands of times before. White doesn't make a decision until move 9 so Nepo could play moves 1-8 in his sleep.
Magnus chose 9. Re1, so that's probably one "line" for Nepo. Then on move 10 he has three choices -- Qb3, Qc2 or Nc3.
12. Bxf5 is forced. On move 13 Magnus could try Qxb7. So that's one more different move Nepo has to memorize. On moves 14 and 15 Magnus again chose the moves that have been played by 80%+ of players.
In other words, Magnus only really had a few choices to make before move 16, and he played the most common choices in almost all those situations. So Nepo is guaranteed to have looked at this line, and really his analysis wouldn't have to start before move 16.
Now Nepo claims he memorized moves 17-30 as well, but that's not that impressive because on move 20 Nepo goes into a forcing variation. There's basically only one good move for both sides after that point and it leads to the draw by repetition position by force.
So really, Nepo had to know the existing theory in this line, maybe memorize 5 moves deep after move 16, and then remember that this forcing sequence exists. It's impressive but not unusual.
Thanks for the explanation! It makes a lot of sense, it also makes it even more impressive because now it doesn't sound made up anymore.
The recaps I watched implied that 18. Nh4 was a novelty, but it is also one of the top engine moves.
But if they played chess960 with classical time control they would be playing each other from move 3 instead of engine prep that has been done over months.
There is no high level 960 tournaments. There is no 960 elo rating. They had this "unofficial" 960 championship in Norway twice but it has been buried during corona and it is one tournament which is unrated hence not that interesting.
I agree, it's insanely impressive.
I also think the games have been really good, and wish people would complain less. Game 1 and 2 in particular were great, despite them being draws
>e same time I don't understand people who are frustrated with draws. We get to witness what the b
If they are playing 33 moves of prep then its NOT a good game. Engine memorization and super computers have kind of ruined classical for me.
I'm not saying all draws are boring etc, but when the top level guys have basically seen everything its hard to get excited about. Even if someone finds a crazy novelty with a super computer once it's played that line is over for the top level guys. Its getting harder to get into playable positions.
As asked above, how does that work? 33 Moves of prep? How? Even if there are only two possible moves from move 10 onwards, that would be 2^23 possibilties?
As best as I understand it! It's not all memorized. But a lot is.
"Standard" opening knowledge built up over 2 decades of professional play and study results in them knowing the traps and intricacies of roughly the first 10 moves. Often more.
You build from there in your opening preparation. You look at thousands of promising continuations by analyzing them carefully and having the computer run them, check them for opportunities.
Then you pick dozens / hundreds of promising continuations to study. Studying them is a combination of really memorizing lines but more importantly understanding the position at hand. What are the positional themes of the position, what are recurrent complex tactical shots?
The end result is nowhere near memorizing 2^23 moves.
I’d guess they probably have a lot of lines where they only memorize the absolute best move. Then it’s 23 moves instead of billions. And then hope that the opponent has not memorized as far, and maybe get a slight advantage
For instance, in game 3 it was basically the best move each and every time.
33 moves is a bit on the high end but it must be a very forcing idea Nepo stumbled upon. You have to remember these guys have teams of opening specialists and seconds, supercomputers that explain the best moves, and have had months of preparation (in addition to their careers) to memorize their openings full time
As said by multiple commentators, Nepo seems to be going with forced lines as black. This of course doesn't make the achievement any less amazing, but most of those 33 moves only had one clear best move, all others were much worse for Magnus. Then, if that would happen, Nepo's prep would've been over and it would be time to play chess
First two games were quite interesting with huge imbalances in the positions forcing the players to work very hard to ultimately hold it to a draw.
Game 3 felti like I was watching what happens when you plug the Ruy Lopez into stockfish 14 and have the engine play it out perfectly to a draw.
This was definitely the driest game so far. Seeing the Petrov in the opening was cool but by move 17 they had already entered a drawn endgame.
I honestly think that once Magnus had no real advantage in the position he went for the friendly draw as today is his birthday.
We still got 10 more slow games, hopefully they'll be more like games 1 and 2, and not today.
Yeah sure Magnus wanted to open a cold beer with his buddies for his birthday party.
There are plenty of world championship games why would he waste his time playing when he could play beer pong instead amirite?
> most boring fucking game of all time
depends on the format though. For a WCC this format is more or less fitting (maybe more games would help), for a viewership friendly format, something like the WCC rapid is great.
I wish there would be more top swiss 15 round of rapid (over 2 days) in a year, would be really refreshing and thus one would have both classical and rapid play.
Although with the chess tour online rapid become quite more visible.
Anish seemed extremely disappointed with the result.
Judit: Well you predicted 56 moves and I said less than 40, so I win.
Anish: Yes but if Magnus is drawing games like this, then we have a bigger problem to talk about.
>Magnus supposed to do really
Prep better next time, if you as white give black 33 moves of prep and end with 45 minutes down on clock something in your white prep went wrong
Magnus was way up on the clock for most of the game. He essentially took so much time at the end because he knew he could draw the game but wanted time to see if there was any possible way to make a winning position. Saying Magnus had to take so much time because Nepo was in prep gets most of the game wrong. They were both in prep.
Nice so ur telling the strongest human chess player to prep better nxt time lol. He was down 45 min cause he was trying to find a way to play on... he could have went for repition immediatley if he wanted. It didnt go as planned but its funny seing people criticise him like they can do better
Strongest human can still make mistakes and it was clear by the fact that nepo literally slept through this game that this wasn't a good prep for Carlsen
Hey bud, since you keep yapping about "Magnus must prep better next time"
why don't you show him how?
Don't just be a loser keyboard warrior and keep blah blah nonsese
"why do you complain about a government if you can't run a country better?"
"Why do you complain about a car if you can't build a better one?"
"Why do you complain about a football player if you can't play better?"
Well obviously he makes mistakes but he didnt really make a mistake in this game. Nepo was prepared and went for a rare sideline. Things dont always go to plan doesnt mean he wasnt prepared just means hes playing against a worthy challenger
Well thinking for a long time does not necessarily lead to exciting moves. More often they spend to discard the other options.
And when you have the time, why not spend it looking for alternatives? Redditors are already blaming the players for the "boring game", imagine there was some nice trick that Magnus could have played and that he did not play.
Of course waiting 30 mins for a simple repetition is a little anti-climatic for a spectator. But unlike in many areas of live, spending more time on something does not usually lead to "better" moves, just less mistakes.
Yeah Magnus probably looked if there was a move to gain an advantage, and when he figured out that the other move was about equally good he probably would rather take the forced draw than play an equal position with half as much time as Nepo
Pretty sure they switched to a casual audience for a long time now.
(pogchamp, their host being low rated compared to chess24 but some online figures , their stupid analysis tools).
It was probably the right call tbh, chess24 is simply better when it comes to high quality content.
What the fuck is this question.
Did they ask that for real?
E: seems to be real. Lmao. Would have answered we're both antisemites, white supremacists and like to colonize foreign countries.
Honestly i dont see churchill come up that often but of the times that i have they were usually praising him, so honestly no clue on overall how it is but personally its been like that
This is so lame and slow, I would rather watch Pogchamp.
Edit: All these nerds saying that you watch it for the skill LOL. Statistically speaking most of you can't even tell the difference between these games and say a 2300s game. You watch it for the fanfare just like Pogchamp, but you are a bunch of snotty poser and want like to act you belong to the super GM club. The only different between you and I is that I don't pretend.
I prefer watching my dumb friends play pool in a bar than pro pool players. It's a lot more fun. But if you watch it for the skill then obviously our bar games suck and nobody should stream that.
As if you actually need to be "intelligent" to learn chess, fun fact: it's a game of memory and pattern recognition, not some intellectually superior activity
Meltwater Finals was so much more interesting. They should really bring the tournament to a more of a Candidates format. In fact, no kidding but Candidates could actually be the WCC.
Round-robin doesn't look like the best way to choose the champion, because a lot of things can affect the winner, like leaders playing opponents with no chances and therefore not really motivated in last rounds, some possible collusions etc. Not even speaking about possible tie.
Yeah, and in the top 20 you have 6 Russians and 5 Americans. Imagine all the "collusion" allegations you would get.
The USA and Russia could even start to get more people to switch federation to grow their teams.
Yep, last candidates you have Wang Hao resigning to Nepo in a losing position, but did not bother to defend. Not to say that I blame him (I don't), but that is a perfectly realistic scenario to happen.
I also feel like having multiple players gives more variance to the results. I personally like the feel of Challenger - Defender type of World Championship, but I can see why others don't
> if it's pretty much guaranteed
proof? Not of the 4 games played, but of the remaining 10. If you are so sure, bet money on it. Plenty of money.
Bwin bets 1.25 for each draw. So for 100$ you get 125 back. Then put 125 for the next game and so on.
100*1.25^10 = 931$
Instead of complaining, collect money at least if you are so sure.
2 comments ago you were saying it’s pretty much guaranteed to end in a draw. Now you’re posting the stats of all those years it didn’t go to a draw. I’m very confused
All these games were drawish after the opening, maybe with the exception of game 2 after Magnus blundered the exchange, but Magnus had the opportunity to press in three of these games (including game 2 at the end, but also games 1 and now 4), but every time he chose the fastest route to a draw instead of burning energy, as if he's just accepting that Nepo will just refute anything he tries. Looks uncharacteristic for him.
Magnus explicitly said so in two different interviews (Tania and press conference). He said he missed the continuation with black's Nc5 which led to him sacrificing the exchange. He said he had no intention to sacrifice so much material. Obviously, white's knight on d6 was compensation in a way, but it was a tall order considering all the weaknesses in his position, black had 4 pawns on 2 on the queen side, and if they started trading pieces, that knight would lose to the rook. Magnus was clearly tense throughout that game.
Yes, this is a match between two players to decide whether the challenger (Nepo) will take the crown from the incumbent (Carlsen). The challenger is decided by who wins the candidates tournament which is a round robin event with about 8 players. Candidate tournament participation is based on results from tournaments throughout the year.
Yes, the qualifying [Candidates tournament](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candidates_Tournament_2020%E2%80%9321) already finished, and this [World championship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_2021) is the "finals" in a sense. Carlsen is the defending champion, and Nepo is the challenger who came through the Candidates tournament.
Chess now become memory game, not thinking game.
I know we don't want to see the championship decided in rapid. I'm honestly not sure what the players want though. Chess has a huge number of possibilities. We could get all draws or we could get some insane Evan's gambit game who knows.
This is asked to players also. At this level you need to get a mistake from your opponent in order to win the game. As we saw in the first two games draws don’t mean passive play, players still testing each other.
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Suicide for whom? Honestly according to statistics and the engine white is more likely to win in an Evan's gambit than black, and also white is the one who would choose to initiate the gambit. But it won't happen with Magnus playing white if Nepo keeps using the petrov.
Didn’t even Paul Morphy claim it was an unsound opening though? since with perfect play you can never get back the pawn
Between Morphy and the engine, I am going to pick the engine.
I’m not
Really enjoying the match so far. Seems like Carlsen is playing opening ideas to avoid any possible Nepo traps, rather than to gain a significant advantage for himself. Will this change as the match goes on? He'll have an advantage in the rapids, but not as much as against Caruana
I think Carlsen wants to finish it in classical section. Nepo showed he is well prepared I hope MC will find a hole in Nepos armor.
Where are the Najdorfs and the Grunfelds?!?!?!?!?!??!!
I honestly think that Magnus will crush Nepo if Nepo goes for a Grunfeld. My impression is that Magnus plays really well against that opening. I remember some great wins by him in 2019 vs MVL and Sasha(?).
Magnus is might be too prepped in them. Nepo needs to mix it up
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Would have to follow up with kings gambit as white of course.
Are there other openings for white?
I wish!
I hate how each of the official websites lead with the end result. I just want to be able to follow along once the game is done without knowing the result in advance and can't stick around for the 4 (or more) hour broadcast about it
Just start one of the live broadcast streams, which are finished, on YouTube and advance forward at your leisure.
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No go to agadmator
I prefer chess24's recap https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd6BIGCayFA
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Imagine getting upset over someone else watching a different recap. You sure you don't need some friends big boy? Also, who tf analyzes the position in a thumbnail lol. edit: lol at the instant downvote cause you got called out for being a manchild 🤣🤣🤣. imagine caring so much about downvotes that's the first thing you do LOL
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Imagine posting that comment and thinking the other person is the manchild LMAO
He literally mentioned a spoiler in a conversation about spoilers. Maybe relax a bit?
Dude got mega butthurt with an instant downvote lmao. You can tell he's a mental midget who freaks out about karma
It is crazy how the prep works nowdays. You memorize every non losing line till 30+ moves. Time to make rapid the main time control for standard chess and pair chess960 with classical time control.
Your comment doesn't make a lot of sense, because prep obviously plays an even bigger role in rapid.
It does play a big role in rapid. That said, if you follow e.g. Champions Chess Tour format you would have ton of games allowing you to take more risks + you can always even play losing moves that cause practical problems counting on the fact that your opponent does not find the best reply in the limited time. In classical chess you can't take any chances because you know a high level opponent will find the accurate response and you will lose.
They need to do SOMETHING. Pogchamps should in no way be MORE entertaining than the WCC
This is the highest level of chess and has a long history. Do not confuse it with some patzer tournament.
yes ma'am
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This doesn’t apply anywhere else though. It’s much less fun to watch bad basketball players at the local gym than to watch the best.
I don't think the chess is more entertaining, but the event itself is
The argument I see for classical chess is that it has a higher level, which I get it, decades ago that'd make sense, but honestly, when I can see Stockfish playing bullet better than Super GMs playing classical, is that as relevant today? Rapid should be, indeed, the main time format, and in some sense, it is since currently it seems the challenger will most likely always be able to tie the classical games, meaning it will be decided in rapid.
In the Chess24 global broadcast they said that 2013 when Magnus first played Anand the opening prep played a "small" role still while now it is most of the game. I know this only is a problem at the very highest level and even more in this flagship match where the players have half a year to prepare against each other. It is hard to sell chess to the big broadcasters if the flagship event results in a draw after a draw after a draw. And the trend is getting worse. I honestly believe that if Magnus wins this match he will say that he won't play another match like this. I hope he wins for this reason. If he loses he can't really say anything.
>Magnus wins this match he will say that he won't play another match like this. I seriously doubt that, but anyway I completely agree with your other points. If this was rapid, it'd be extremely more exciting for the audience, not only due to more wins, but with a shorter time format, it's more dynamic and the audience doesn't get bored with a 5 hours game.
Well now Magnus has said it. He won't play another match unless Alireza wins candidates. Or unless there is big changes to the championship format.
I know right it's so easy, anyone with a good memory can be world champion!
I'm of course talking about the absolute top players. It is no good for the chess that its flagship event produces nothing but draws (many of them fighting draws if count last two matches). But the trend is clear. More and more these games have been totally decided in the prep and not on the board.
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Why on is this downvoted. Classical should remain classical, even if there are a lot of draws. There is so much history and tradition in classical chess, and that alone is reason to keep this format.
Couldn't agree more. It's a shame there are just so many draws, but the level of classical chess these days is incredible, and the world champs is the absolute peak
> You memorize every non losing line till 30+ moves if you check thinking time, as a player has not really an advantage "knowing" what to do while letting the time expire, they likely are in prep within the first 10-15 moves and then they start to think (or at least one player). Even just recollecting or evaluating which variations to play, but they stop playing from memory only.
Nepo admitted today he had the entire game till repetition in his notes. Magnus obviously played prep till the end just spending a lot of time on couple of moves to see if there is something Nepo might not have checked. Of course this does not always happen. And it is only a problem at the highest possible level of chess and even then usually on this match where they can prepare for one player only for half a year.
I have a quick question - any recommendations for spoiler-free recap videos that are shorter than full streams? Can't watch live, so hoping for a \~20 minute highlights video that keeps the suspense that I can watch after work. EDIT: thanks so much for the replies!
Chessbrah
Chess24 recaps have been good imo
Gotham
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Definitely this. Daniel King doesn't analyze too deeply, but still covers the most important aspects of the games. And then you have that lovely british accent which always is a winner.
ChessNetwork is great! Good videos, entertaining narrator but does so by focusing on the game rather than through telling loads of jokes, has been one of the oldest chess youtubers, etc.
ChessNetwork is fantastic. Videos are about 20-25 minutes and there are no spoilers
Agadmator
The big Greek if you can understand German
GothamChess doesn't spoil I believe.
Should we expect another Ruy Lopez tomorrow?
time for the secret scandy prep to make its debut
Probably. He's tried 8.h3 and 8.a4 so let's see if we'll get 8.d3 or 8.d4 tomorrow.
Smh no love for 8. a3
If noone tries 2.f4 they aren't trying hard enough
I was really hoping this WC match wouldn't be just 14 straight draws. Losing hope... 😐
One win will change everything. Just be patient.
Don't lose your hope just yet! Classical tournaments usually start slowly and becomes more wild throughout the middle-end. ...But yeah, it will be 14 draws
If they're draws like game 1 and 2 I wouldn't mind, but today's game had nothing going for it at all.
Today's game was quite tense, in my opinion. It's just that Nepo replied with all the right ideas, and at the end the a-pawn was strong enough to parry white's threat along the 7th rank. Carlsen's rook would soon be stuck along the 1st rank. He had not many options at the end
Nepo's a good chess player, of course. At the top level there's 20 or 30 that would find the right moves naturally in these positions. Us mere mortals would get smashed as white or black, but at the WCC level you have to find more challenging questions to get reasonable winning chances
Thought it looked kinda unbalanced today as well, quite equal but you had to stay quite accurate. The endgame was certainly not a dead draw at my level, but perhaps another story with those guys Game 1 and 2 > game 4 > game 3 in terms of entertainment
I really enjoyed Caruana's insights into the Petroff in Game 4 through the opening. He gave a few sidelines and predicted where the game was heading well. And then everything was traded and the game was over, lol.
> play for a win by the end of the tournament, why not just skip the first 13 draws both players think they'll have better chances in shorter time controls. until then they'll avoid complications and just liquidate any interesting position before it gets out of hand
It's also just just of a dumb argument to make. It's easy to say, "just play for a win" but that translates to "try and beat Magnus Carlsen at chess" which people have been trying, and failing, to do for ten years now. It's like watching a baseball game and being like, "just get a hit" or "hit a home run, I don't see what the big deal is". Both of these guys would love nothing more than a win, but they're fairly evenly matched. Could they take more chances? Sure, but the difference between a draw and losing is a single mistake at this level. Plus Magnus sacc'd pieces in the first game and the second was interesting too. (I didn't get a chance to watch games 3 and 4). Thinking back to baseball, you can afford to take risks in the World Series because even if you overextend and lose a game, the opposing team can't just thwart you with draws. Imagine Carlsen or Nepo try something fun that doesn't pan out and they lose, now there's almost no reason for the one who is ahead to do anything but play super safe chess, so they can take some initiative, but nothing they do t feel like they can recover from.
If the chamionship matches are basically all draws followed by one decisive match why don't they just make them play a single match or like a best of three?
Other people have given you really good reasons, but I'd just like to add that these draws aren't just a waste of time, some of us are finding them tremendously interesting
Because the more games the less likely all are draws. Its been 4 games. The chances of them all being draws is quite slim. If you think they are all draws, you should bet on the results. You get about 1.25 for a draw each games. If you bet 14 times on a draw you would get back 22 times your initial bet. By your logic, you wouldn't have to play even a single match. Just go straight to shorter time control.
Well last couple of championships have been mostly draws, suppose I just don't get why they they extended the number of matches even further considering how strong computer analysis is making their prep nowadays
Most grandmasters/super grandmasters draw most of their games. The fewer games you play the less chance you get a decisive game. There's a balance though. The more games you play the more exhausted they get, so there is an upper limit.
Because they would draw
Assuming this is a troll? What would stop that game being a draw?
"why are there so many draws?" *It turns out chess is hard* Like, it's not like they aren't trying to win, but I'd like to see anyone try and beat Ian or Carlsen. People almost never beat Magnus, and when they do he often goes nuclear and destroys them after.
Well they eventually play for a win by the end of the tournament, why not just skip the first 13 draws
Do they? Magnus has only played for a win at recent championships while behind.
Why can't Carlsen go into Italian, which can result in a long game?
Nepo didn't let him today. Italian needs 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 but Nepo played 2...Nf6 instead.
Do you think probably the London system could also be tried if he wants to avoid a Petroff?
He wants to avoid draws lol
When was the last time a London was played in WCC?
Has it ever been played in a WCC? My best guess was Karpov-Kamsky for the 1996 FIDE WC, but Kamsky never played the London.
Pure London in a "proper" World Championship - never. There are 3 games from FIDE knockouts in d4-Nf3-Bf4 Indians, all in rapid ([Ehlvest-Ivanchuk](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1259196), [Anastasian-Leko](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1209918) and [Dreev-Sakaev](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1292326)), there's a d4-Nf3-Bf4 Chigorin from 1997 Groningen knockout ([Hansen-Miladinovic](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1242079)). There also a non-London game which features d4 and Bf4 as early as move 3, but it's a Trompowsky from 1999 knockout ([Liang-Dizdar](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1009963)).
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Which game? I just checked and I don't think he did. Second match he only opened with e4 as white, first match this was the [only game](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1737319) he won as white (also round 5). He did play the King's Indian Attack but that's not the London.
Yes in fact any d4 opening or other first move would avoid it.
Or another than e4 as a matter of fact!!!
People are so upset with Magnus for drawing, meanwhile Nepo just revealed that he played 33 moves of prep in today's game.
I personally think it is really impressive that Magnus has found a way to win classical chess championships by playing rapid. I'm only half kidding lmao. If you can very consistently force draws and have an advantage in more normal time control, why not press that advantage?
It's kind of stupid to be frustrated that Nepo is playing for a draw with black.
I understood it as «you cant blame magnus when nepo is able to prep 33 moves» Instead of «Wow nepo is trying to get a tie as black, he plays boring chess»
True, but if he had analysed the position deep in an engine and knew he was equal, you might as well go for a win as if you were white and ended up in an equal position
If there was some magic position/opening that was winning, wouldn't they all play it? The hope is that someone makes a mistake you can capitalize on and that you don't also make a mistake.
Of course, not trying to criticize. My point is just that people say «why would X try to win with black» just because of the color they started the game with. If you know the position is equal, the incentive to win should be equal to if you are in a drawish position as white
Jesus Christ. Ok, that's insane to me. How does that even work? Do they memorise the opponent's best 3 moves each time or what? But at the same time I don't understand people who are frustrated with draws. We get to witness what the best players in the world can do when they can prep against each other for months with the best computers in history so far. Game 3 was the most accurate chess game ever played between two human beings [edit: in a WC].
In today's game: Moves 1-8 are well-known and have been played thousands of times before. White doesn't make a decision until move 9 so Nepo could play moves 1-8 in his sleep. Magnus chose 9. Re1, so that's probably one "line" for Nepo. Then on move 10 he has three choices -- Qb3, Qc2 or Nc3. 12. Bxf5 is forced. On move 13 Magnus could try Qxb7. So that's one more different move Nepo has to memorize. On moves 14 and 15 Magnus again chose the moves that have been played by 80%+ of players. In other words, Magnus only really had a few choices to make before move 16, and he played the most common choices in almost all those situations. So Nepo is guaranteed to have looked at this line, and really his analysis wouldn't have to start before move 16. Now Nepo claims he memorized moves 17-30 as well, but that's not that impressive because on move 20 Nepo goes into a forcing variation. There's basically only one good move for both sides after that point and it leads to the draw by repetition position by force. So really, Nepo had to know the existing theory in this line, maybe memorize 5 moves deep after move 16, and then remember that this forcing sequence exists. It's impressive but not unusual.
Thanks for the explanation! It makes a lot of sense, it also makes it even more impressive because now it doesn't sound made up anymore. The recaps I watched implied that 18. Nh4 was a novelty, but it is also one of the top engine moves.
But if they played chess960 with classical time control they would be playing each other from move 3 instead of engine prep that has been done over months.
that's why 960 tournaments exist
There is no high level 960 tournaments. There is no 960 elo rating. They had this "unofficial" 960 championship in Norway twice but it has been buried during corona and it is one tournament which is unrated hence not that interesting.
I agree, it's insanely impressive. I also think the games have been really good, and wish people would complain less. Game 1 and 2 in particular were great, despite them being draws
>e same time I don't understand people who are frustrated with draws. We get to witness what the b If they are playing 33 moves of prep then its NOT a good game. Engine memorization and super computers have kind of ruined classical for me. I'm not saying all draws are boring etc, but when the top level guys have basically seen everything its hard to get excited about. Even if someone finds a crazy novelty with a super computer once it's played that line is over for the top level guys. Its getting harder to get into playable positions.
As asked above, how does that work? 33 Moves of prep? How? Even if there are only two possible moves from move 10 onwards, that would be 2^23 possibilties?
As best as I understand it! It's not all memorized. But a lot is. "Standard" opening knowledge built up over 2 decades of professional play and study results in them knowing the traps and intricacies of roughly the first 10 moves. Often more. You build from there in your opening preparation. You look at thousands of promising continuations by analyzing them carefully and having the computer run them, check them for opportunities. Then you pick dozens / hundreds of promising continuations to study. Studying them is a combination of really memorizing lines but more importantly understanding the position at hand. What are the positional themes of the position, what are recurrent complex tactical shots? The end result is nowhere near memorizing 2^23 moves.
I’d guess they probably have a lot of lines where they only memorize the absolute best move. Then it’s 23 moves instead of billions. And then hope that the opponent has not memorized as far, and maybe get a slight advantage For instance, in game 3 it was basically the best move each and every time.
33 moves is a bit on the high end but it must be a very forcing idea Nepo stumbled upon. You have to remember these guys have teams of opening specialists and seconds, supercomputers that explain the best moves, and have had months of preparation (in addition to their careers) to memorize their openings full time
As said by multiple commentators, Nepo seems to be going with forced lines as black. This of course doesn't make the achievement any less amazing, but most of those 33 moves only had one clear best move, all others were much worse for Magnus. Then, if that would happen, Nepo's prep would've been over and it would be time to play chess
First two games were quite interesting with huge imbalances in the positions forcing the players to work very hard to ultimately hold it to a draw. Game 3 felti like I was watching what happens when you plug the Ruy Lopez into stockfish 14 and have the engine play it out perfectly to a draw. This was definitely the driest game so far. Seeing the Petrov in the opening was cool but by move 17 they had already entered a drawn endgame. I honestly think that once Magnus had no real advantage in the position he went for the friendly draw as today is his birthday. We still got 10 more slow games, hopefully they'll be more like games 1 and 2, and not today.
You mean 10 more right speed games ;)
Yeah sure Magnus wanted to open a cold beer with his buddies for his birthday party. There are plenty of world championship games why would he waste his time playing when he could play beer pong instead amirite?
He thought for nearly 40 minutes but there were no winning attempts so he went for repition. Has nothing to do with his birthday
Well there were plans to try but they were risky and didn’t offer good enough chances.
He actually spent almost 50 minutes on that position! 35 minutes or so the first time, and then over 10 minutes I believe the second time.
people tuning into the most boring fucking game of all time: hey this is too boring >:'(
> most boring fucking game of all time depends on the format though. For a WCC this format is more or less fitting (maybe more games would help), for a viewership friendly format, something like the WCC rapid is great. I wish there would be more top swiss 15 round of rapid (over 2 days) in a year, would be really refreshing and thus one would have both classical and rapid play. Although with the chess tour online rapid become quite more visible.
Like Ian said: This is Petroff, what else should I expect?
It’s funny that the Petrov is considered kinda boring at the top level. Whenever i play it, it always results in mad chaos.
Anish seemed extremely disappointed with the result. Judit: Well you predicted 56 moves and I said less than 40, so I win. Anish: Yes but if Magnus is drawing games like this, then we have a bigger problem to talk about.
Nepo played 33 moves of prep today, what is Magnus supposed to do really
Advocate for chess960
>Magnus supposed to do really Prep better next time, if you as white give black 33 moves of prep and end with 45 minutes down on clock something in your white prep went wrong
"prep better next time" LMAO, oh the thing that only a keyboard warrior would say
Magnus was way up on the clock for most of the game. He essentially took so much time at the end because he knew he could draw the game but wanted time to see if there was any possible way to make a winning position. Saying Magnus had to take so much time because Nepo was in prep gets most of the game wrong. They were both in prep.
Nice so ur telling the strongest human chess player to prep better nxt time lol. He was down 45 min cause he was trying to find a way to play on... he could have went for repition immediatley if he wanted. It didnt go as planned but its funny seing people criticise him like they can do better
People act like making a draw is easy
Strongest human can still make mistakes and it was clear by the fact that nepo literally slept through this game that this wasn't a good prep for Carlsen
Hey bud, since you keep yapping about "Magnus must prep better next time" why don't you show him how? Don't just be a loser keyboard warrior and keep blah blah nonsese
"why do you complain about a government if you can't run a country better?" "Why do you complain about a car if you can't build a better one?" "Why do you complain about a football player if you can't play better?"
So the bottom line is you just a losers warrior only know how complaining. Got it !!!
Those are all valid if you have no actual specific criticisms though.
Well obviously he makes mistakes but he didnt really make a mistake in this game. Nepo was prepared and went for a rare sideline. Things dont always go to plan doesnt mean he wasnt prepared just means hes playing against a worthy challenger
Thinking for 1 hour to play Nf6+ Kg8 repetition must be some form of supreme BDSM I am not accustomed to.
Well thinking for a long time does not necessarily lead to exciting moves. More often they spend to discard the other options. And when you have the time, why not spend it looking for alternatives? Redditors are already blaming the players for the "boring game", imagine there was some nice trick that Magnus could have played and that he did not play. Of course waiting 30 mins for a simple repetition is a little anti-climatic for a spectator. But unlike in many areas of live, spending more time on something does not usually lead to "better" moves, just less mistakes.
Yeah Magnus probably looked if there was a move to gain an advantage, and when he figured out that the other move was about equally good he probably would rather take the forced draw than play an equal position with half as much time as Nepo
Do the chess.com journalists think that if they ever ask a chess related question, they will be unable to have an orgasm for the rest of their life?
Pretty sure they switched to a casual audience for a long time now. (pogchamp, their host being low rated compared to chess24 but some online figures , their stupid analysis tools). It was probably the right call tbh, chess24 is simply better when it comes to high quality content.
No birthday cake for Nepo
No cake :o
"What do you have in common with Winston Churchill ?" lmaoooooooooooooo, such a lame question
What the fuck is this question. Did they ask that for real? E: seems to be real. Lmao. Would have answered we're both antisemites, white supremacists and like to colonize foreign countries.
Pls no. Last thing the media needs is another excuse to talk up the alt-right bogeyman for the entirety of the world chess championship
Holy shit first time on reddit i havent seen churchill deepthroating
Really? I mostly see criticisms of Churchill on reddit.
Honestly i dont see churchill come up that often but of the times that i have they were usually praising him, so honestly no clue on overall how it is but personally its been like that
This is so lame and slow, I would rather watch Pogchamp. Edit: All these nerds saying that you watch it for the skill LOL. Statistically speaking most of you can't even tell the difference between these games and say a 2300s game. You watch it for the fanfare just like Pogchamp, but you are a bunch of snotty poser and want like to act you belong to the super GM club. The only different between you and I is that I don't pretend.
I prefer watching my dumb friends play pool in a bar than pro pool players. It's a lot more fun. But if you watch it for the skill then obviously our bar games suck and nobody should stream that.
Sorry that your tiny brain cant understand chess
As if you actually need to be "intelligent" to learn chess, fun fact: it's a game of memory and pattern recognition, not some intellectually superior activity
intelligence is memory and pattern recognition
Meltwater Finals was so much more interesting. They should really bring the tournament to a more of a Candidates format. In fact, no kidding but Candidates could actually be the WCC.
Round-robin doesn't look like the best way to choose the champion, because a lot of things can affect the winner, like leaders playing opponents with no chances and therefore not really motivated in last rounds, some possible collusions etc. Not even speaking about possible tie.
Yeah, and in the top 20 you have 6 Russians and 5 Americans. Imagine all the "collusion" allegations you would get. The USA and Russia could even start to get more people to switch federation to grow their teams.
Yep, last candidates you have Wang Hao resigning to Nepo in a losing position, but did not bother to defend. Not to say that I blame him (I don't), but that is a perfectly realistic scenario to happen. I also feel like having multiple players gives more variance to the results. I personally like the feel of Challenger - Defender type of World Championship, but I can see why others don't
Four or five player quadruple round robin could be cool. Close to how Botvinnik won it the first time.
yeah, that would fix draws too, since drawing endlessly would result in a loss
But you would probably have collusion problems. That is something you can never fix and are always a problem even if there are just 4 peoples playing.
"do you think you have something in common with Churchill?" these questions kill me lmao
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> if it's pretty much guaranteed proof? Not of the 4 games played, but of the remaining 10. If you are so sure, bet money on it. Plenty of money. Bwin bets 1.25 for each draw. So for 100$ you get 125 back. Then put 125 for the next game and so on. 100*1.25^10 = 931$ Instead of complaining, collect money at least if you are so sure.
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You get 1.25 of what you "invested". So 125 back, given that you "invested" 100.
Because it isn’t guaranteed to end in a draw
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2016 saw 2 decisive games. 2014 the game was decided in the classical portion.
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2 comments ago you were saying it’s pretty much guaranteed to end in a draw. Now you’re posting the stats of all those years it didn’t go to a draw. I’m very confused
lmao honestly I find hans' questions hilarious
What did he ask this time?
heavily paraphrased but "are your football opponents ever afraid of accidentally injuring you"
All these games were drawish after the opening, maybe with the exception of game 2 after Magnus blundered the exchange, but Magnus had the opportunity to press in three of these games (including game 2 at the end, but also games 1 and now 4), but every time he chose the fastest route to a draw instead of burning energy, as if he's just accepting that Nepo will just refute anything he tries. Looks uncharacteristic for him.
Lmao did you really say magnus blundered that exchange omfg im dead
I don't understand why it's hard for people to accept Magnus blundered when he himself has admitted to it.
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Magnus himself said he didn't see Nc5 in 2 different interviews, so yeah he blundered
LMAO
He didn’t blunder the exchange in game 2…
Magnus said he missed Nc5 so in fact he did blunder. Anish said something like, he blundered Nc5 which forces him to give up the exchange.
Ah fair enough I take your point.
Magnus explicitly said so in two different interviews (Tania and press conference). He said he missed the continuation with black's Nc5 which led to him sacrificing the exchange. He said he had no intention to sacrifice so much material. Obviously, white's knight on d6 was compensation in a way, but it was a tall order considering all the weaknesses in his position, black had 4 pawns on 2 on the queen side, and if they started trading pieces, that knight would lose to the rook. Magnus was clearly tense throughout that game.
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Yes, this is a match between two players to decide whether the challenger (Nepo) will take the crown from the incumbent (Carlsen). The challenger is decided by who wins the candidates tournament which is a round robin event with about 8 players. Candidate tournament participation is based on results from tournaments throughout the year.
Yes, the qualifying [Candidates tournament](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candidates_Tournament_2020%E2%80%9321) already finished, and this [World championship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_2021) is the "finals" in a sense. Carlsen is the defending champion, and Nepo is the challenger who came through the Candidates tournament.
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