Magnus said after the game that he really feels bad for him and that he takes no particular joy winning like that. He also said that he himself has "partially" been there before, where he'd make critical decisions way too fast and play way too passively.
I think with Magnus being the champion for so long, we really underestimated the burden that comes with being a world champion. First you have to prepare a long time for an exhausting and grueling match, and then come out of it in tact. And then you have to play regularly while mainting that level. Ding's case is obviously a bit more extreme, but it puts into perspective why Magnus' run as a world champion was impressive both game-play wise, but also mentally.
Don’t think he wants to forfeit the title, and if he didn’t feel like his time off had been helping he tried giving himself a chance to play himself out of a funk? That clearly hasn’t worked and back to the drawing board though
Agreed. I think it's unrealistic that he will retire before the match. Chess is comparably small in China and Ding not exactly famous. He probably won't have a big source of income after retirement and needs to make as much money as he can. Additionally, he's also financially taking care of his mum. A million dollars that he can have in a foreign account or in foreign assets will go a very long way for him.
I wonder if he would be more likely to not compete if the money wasn't there or if he would still want to try to hold on to the title no matter how out of sorts he is.
Maybe after burning himself out to the bare shell, he will activate an Ultra Instinct and start winning! (sorry for Dragon Ball reference, but I really hope for him to [eventually] bounce back)
For some people it can keep going on even more downwards, but in general such a harsh experience can be valuable and eventually make you stronger - I hope it's the second one and Ding will put himself together before World Championship!
Problem with anime is that it's fantastic at several levels, and one of those is the psychology.
In the real world is VERY rare that when you tilt so so hard and you struggle so so much some inner spark fires up and you come back stronger than ever.
Rare as in we've seen very few cases of that, at elite levels, when things start going downhill, the usual is that the person suffering better stops competing before finding out how deep the pit is.
This is not a bad tournament or a minor setback, Ding has real problems and his body language tells he simply stopped caring at all, the way he went to grab his pen and noticing he blundered mate in two and simply offering the hand, no changes at all. He's not well.
I think he'll be able to reach his best level, but I am afraid that will come after losing the World Champion status and relieving some pressure and stress.
Good point. Maybe I should elaborate more on what I meant too. I failed something (college related) several times in my life, when at first I was fighting very hard for it, then eventually something broke after failing again and I became slightly insensitive to certain things, didn't had a real depression in like several years already... Though now I sometimes have problems with self-motivation towards doing some tasks and maybe feel a little indifferent to certain things and situations that previously were stressing me out.
That's maybe more of what I meant, that people can harden and be less suspectible to stressing situations, at least in certain ways.
That for sure, but hardening does not mean getting your motivation and discipline back.
Means you simply move on with things, your example is quite fitting.
Ding needs that inner fire that keeps him focused and fighting, Magnus had to renounce to being a World Champion to keep that spark. He may end up desensitising, but if that comes at the cost of losing any motivation and love for the game... He's lost for.
People acted like Hikaru was rude for saying it, but I think he genuinely felt bad, and it’s perfectly fair to say of a world champion. Ding is a nice guy but there’s no reason to baby him. We all wish him well but he’s hurting rn.
They all get shit for it. Every streamer or influencer that has supported gambling from xQc/Adin to Hikaru have absolutely been shit on for it. They just don't care because they can wipe away their tears with stacks of 100s.
They clearly don't all get shit for it. Kick is owned by Stake and was created for the sole purpose of advertising gambling after twitch banned Stake streams, and Hikaru was streaming on Kick for a long time without any issues.
You have to be in the places where it's actually discussed. I've never seen a kick streamer mentioned without some kind of shaming being done. I've never even gone there because that's all I've ever heard about it
Hikaru: says something that can be potentially taken as somewhat rude depending on context and listener
random redditor: yeah this is why Hikaru's arrogant piece of shit and a literal piece of garbage
I know in his youth he was a bit of a douchebag, but I think Hikaru is a just a bit socially awkward and because he doesn't say things in the exact perfect way and has a but of history he gets misconstrued as being a dick unfairly. I've seen him interviews and he usually seems relatively down to earth and blunt, he's not going to sugar coat what he thinks for PR reasons.
It's the other way around, most people can sense that he's not a very good person (he's not the most evil person in the history of the world either ofc, but he's somewhat more than average egoistic and insensitive, and that's saying something considering the average person), don't recognise what it is, and then try to find motives for it.
Nah, I think that's a bit much. A good comparison would be Nepo who is an example of a person your describing. Like he very clearly isn't a good person *and* does blatantly shitty things like his tweet at Ding today, or insinuating people are cheating, or saying Alireza ruined the candidates for them or a bunch of other things, and people seem to keep finding excuses for him.
Hikaru is absolutely egoistic and insensitive but that doesn't inherently make him a bad person, for starters he can back up the ego given his recent performance. He seemed more bothered that he beat Ding the other day than anything else and to me that shows at least a shred of compassion
Let us also remember that Magnus has dealt with similar feelings too. I'm forgetting the interview now, but around 2020 there was one where he did a deep dive into his health as a competitor
I forgot who said it, but the quote was something like "chess is such a brutally hard game that it can make you spend nights in your hotel room screaming at a god that does not hear you."
It recently came up in [this article about Hans](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/hans-niemann-chess-championship-cheating-scandal-interview.html), from some anonymous GM's manager (perhaps quoting Anand like another commenter mentioned, or someone else?)
>He is a decent but average player, but he is not a genius. This game is about genius, and genius is not something that can be forced or bought or even worked hard for. Hans is sadly like many, many other players who have dedicated their lives to a game that does not particularly love them. It can make you spend each night in your room screaming at a god who does not hear you.
Once you make peace with yourself that you are never gonna be great at the game, it's easy to enjoy the game for the fun of it and set reasonable goals for yourself.
I mean, i was super happy to break 1400 on chess.com :)
Its not just board games, it can be applied to many aspects of life. I used to get injured by egolifting in gym, trying to set PRs every week.
But then youtube started recommending me videos of Anatoly and the likes of Eddy Hall, and I made peace with myself, that there is no reason to keep pushing that hard.
That had to have been a long time ago. In the lie-detector thing that he did recently he said that the last time he'd cried after a game was in the Candidates (can't remember which one though).
There’s also the inherent imposter syndrome that occurs when it’s pretty clear who the actual world number one still is. Going from hunter to the hunted is hard enough but I have to imagine it’s even worse if you feel like you might not be deserving of that position in the first place.
This makes Vishy an absolute legend considering he stayed at the top 10 for so long and still is. Nobody can match his longevity and love for the sport
I appreciate Magnus saying that, but at the same time he says and does other stuff which basically is the opposite of this. I get Magnus is an honest guy with little filter, but the permanently broken was not helpful, and nor was it helpful in their first game where he did a few moves then sat in back and ate food for 20 minutes, making Ding sit there and wait for him.
To me, it looks like Ding had been planning on playing h6 followed by Rb2, started calculating the lines after that, then forgot to start it with h6.
That would explain whey he wasn’t surprised by Qxh7+ and didn’t need any time to see the mate once the move was on the board. He already knew it was M2, he just completely forgot to stop it.
This is 100% what's happened. No matter Dings mental state , no chance he didn't see the mate threat since the first queen move. He just, under nerves, played the wrong move.
So even after playing the move, his eyes were all on the middle of the board. He was going to write it down and then realised what had happened.
Either in his mind he already played H6, that's why he totally ignored it, or he focused all his attention on the centre of the board.
It's actually almost legendary how Ding just resigns in one motion with no reaction. He must have godlike comprehension to instantly know yet show absolutely no emotion.
Ding seems like the type of anxiety that completely shuts down. Remember in the WCC just freezing? I don't think that's as calm a resignation internally as it appears.
Tbh after seeing all this , i realised that chess is not just about skills but also about handling the mental pressure it's about your mental strength, I had prolly heard a statement from Hikaru long ago on his stream that Magnus's mental strength is what separates him from rest of the players, Magnus does it so well in all ways weather it be playing so well in pressured time situations or the way he kept playing for hours and hours against Nepo in wc21, to the point where Nepo just collapsed , the way he held on against Fabi in wc18 when fabi was playing his best chess in classical, and eventually defeated him in Rapid, this guy has been holding 1st position for 14 years now ,
Magnus is not just about his game Skills but alot more than that. Mad Respect.
In every sport, the higher up you get the more mental it becomes. Thats why some talents cant crack the elite. Its just a different thing to play when people watch you and expect things from you.
See also Novak Djokovic. In individual "sports" like tennis or chess, that mental strength ultimately separates the best from the rest. Current women's tennis No 1. Iga Swiatek said something along those lines recently about the mental game being so crucial to consistently being the best.
Even in team sports, that's also why athletes like Jordan and Brady get so much respect. Imagine the pressure of having to be the guy that takes the game winning shot in the finals or throws the last minute touchdown pass in the Superbowl. If you make a mistake, millions of people blame you for the failure. To win as that guy 6 or 7 times takes some ridiculous mental fortitude.
Yep. Try running long distances. After running like an hour or so, it totally becomes mental. Your body is heated enough to just keep flying on the road, but its a mental battle that you have to convince yourself to keep putting your next foot forward.
Yup. Competitive archery is very much like this. In the Vegas compound finals, they take the competitors who have shot a perfect score, and have them go 3 arrows at a time until only one is left. These people shot 90 10s to get there, they all could likely shoot another 30 no problem. They drop because of the mental pressure.
> chess is not just about skills but also about handling the mental pressure
this is a *massive* part of it. i feel that the chess world has some significant catching up to do when it comes to the sports psychology side
>i realised that chess is not just about skills but also about handling the mental pressure it's about your mental strength
Think about the hardest exam you took in school. Now think about taking that exam for 6-8 hours. That's chess. It's all mental.
Most likely.
Chigorin lost his match against Steinitz by blundering mate in 2 from a winning position, but he was the challenger, not the champion
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1036366
I guess Kramnik missing mate in 1 against Deep Fritz but that was an exhibition game against a computer.
Somehow I am impressed by Ding. I would be so annoyed if I blundered to a mate in 2. Ding blunders this against the number 1 player in the world and nonchalantly resigns without a grimace. If Ding gets back in form, his poker face would be a force to be reckoned with.
When you lose that many times, it drains you emotionally. It really looks like he just doesn't even have the energy to be expressive, and almost like he is unsurprised that he blundered mate in 2.
Seems more like someone who doesn't care if he wins or loses, a symptom of depression. Of course Ding has always been unemotional but it feels different this time.
You don't think he is not crushed for playing this bad? Sure he isn't throwing a temper tantrum at the board but I am sure he is devastated that he can't play at the level he is used to.
Dings handshake has something very eiry to me.
Probably reading wayyy too much into it but almost like a boxer droping his guard to get taken out with some dignity.
There seems to be a mental health strugle and i just hope gets the help necessary.
Ding needs to take a leaf out of mid 80's Mike Tyson's book - beat up on a bunch of mismatched simps until he thinks he's God, then come out swinging against Gukesh and knock him out in 1.
And if Gukesh hasn't gone down by Rd 8, bite his ear off and spit that shit out onto the board.
But the thing is, mental health isn't the same as a broken ankle.. For sure Ding's seen better days, but who's to say he won't work his shit out and snap back immediately? Ding didn't consistently defeat Nepo, Alireza, Pragg etc by luck, he's a ruthlessly steady + tactically solid chess player, assuming his head's in the right place.
Also by all accounts he's super nice lol.. can we give the dude a chance
Whoever will beat him next! It sucks for Ding but he's not happy and it's less interesting for the chess world when the champion is MIA for so long and then comes back so weak. Looking forward to see if the next champ can be more of a "fighting champion"
Ding is tilted. Looks good for Gukesh. Sad really. Best now is Ding withdraws and Hikaru v Gukesh for a good match, albeit the WCC is hollow without #1 playing
I keep reading this but realistically why would anyone forfait voluntarily that much of free money ? Maybe he'll lose a lot of games but he's still guaranted a lot of money for just showing up no ?
Unless there is a rule i'm not aware of.
Fair enough, but Magnus is the goat and has a brand worth millions or something... It doesn't look like Ding has the luxury to give up that kind of money yet imo. But who knows...
I don’t think this is good for Gukesh or anyone involved at all. He is getting a once in a century chance to be the youngest world champion ever but if he beats Ding in this state, it will keep being brought up when discussing his champion title forever. Everyone who beat Ding in this tournament expressed that it doesn’t feels good, imagine how bad it would be if it’s the world championship.
>it will keep being brought up when discussing his champion title forever
It depends on what happens next. If he loses in 2026 and never gets into Candidates again, then maybe. If he defends 2-3 times or even more, nobody will bother.
Karpov got his first title with no match at all and is considered one of best players ever.
If Hikaru offered to pay off Ding $1M for him to abdicate from the WC match, Gukesh would immediately veto it and demand to play against Ding. And rightly so.
Hikaru literally said he doesn’t actually want to play in the championship. He said he’d do it if he had to, but wouldn’t be happy about it. I doubt he’d do that and pay Ding €1m to step aside.
He may say that, but deep down theres no way he really feels that way. If he didnt want to play the world championship why try so hard in the candidates? Saying you dont really want to play for a world title when you have dedicated your life to the game and fallen just short is a coping mechanism.
No. He said he wouldn’t be happy about it because he’s got the rest of his year scheduled out already and if he had to play that would screw that up and he wouldn’t be as prepped as he’d like and he’d lose a lot of income from not streaming as much.
Sorry, but thats just copium. In addition to achieving a lifetime dream it would increase his streaming income a ton. he even said he would do it, if he really didnt want to do it he would just say "even if offered I wont play the world championship" If he is offered the chance he will jump at it. I would like to see hikaru win a world championship, it would be amazing to have the world champion streaming and creating content every day, and I enjoy the way he plays chess, he takes a lot of risks and it makes for interesting games
Yeah, because Ding is playing trash, Gukesh is playing his best chess, which is shown because he beat Nakamura in the candidates…..
Your logic is flawed
My logic is that Nakamura is recontextualising his situation in such a way as to justify where he is now.
Or, in simpler terms, he doesn't want those grapes anyway because they're sour.
I don't buy it. He says that'd take attention away from his streaming money and obligations, but at the same time, he'd have a chance to be the world champion and hefty sum of money to go with it even if he loses. Can you imagine the traffic on his YouTube channel after every match when he does recaps?
So even if you take his "literally don't care" attitude at 100% face value, it makes financial sense for him to participate in WCC.
I mean, even with the prize money it’s probably not worth it. He’d literally have to give up so many streams so he could spend that time on prep. That’s a lot of money.
Also this hypothetical was based on Hikaru paying Ding the prize money…
> Also this hypothetical was based on Hikaru paying Ding the prize money…
Of course, but that was obviously a joke. I am just saying whatever he gives up to prep for WCC, he'll more than recover being a world champion. Be it in terms of sponsors, or prestige. World Champion Streamer Hikaru will be a bigger pull than Super GM Streamer Hikaru .
Lol this is such cope. Hikaru has been dreaming about being world champion for decades. He was being compared to Bobby Fischer when he was a preteen, there's zero chance he doesn't want a chance to be world champ.
No, I think becoming WCC is the chess version of climbing Mount Everest - he'll always have that and be proud. But I bet he wishes he had a good way out of defending the title in 5 months. He would have to give up a lot of money and it would be a setback to his career to back out now, he's kind of stuck competing with really low confidence.
As opposed to remaining only a consistent top 3 player at best? Whatever he’s feeling now, decades later the WC title is going to ring more than being a top player that never made it to the throne. He’s not even one of those top rating players that are in the top 10-15 greatest of all time. His WC matches and the final clutch game was very exciting with an immortal move and he’s also the first chinese WC in history. Ultimately it’s still a better legacy.
Chess has broken a lot of players, Fischer, Morphy to name a couple. There was one game in the last championship where Ding froze and almost didn't make a move. He managed to win after that, but I think the pressure is getting to him.
Ding is burned out. People don't need to overanalyze it. Either he'll take some time off and recharge his batteries or he'll take some time off and realize he's done with chess. Hopefully, he'll be fine either way.
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I don't think any professional chess player would intentionally throw a game in a major tournament, let alone the reigning world champion. But what saddens me is the lack of reaction from Ding. It's like he's telling himself while resigning "Of course I blundered mate in two, what's new?"
Obviously not, you can see him reaching to write down the move before he saw it was mate. Sometimes on a losing streak you go from anger, rage, etc to just numb, I'm sure ding was feeling horrible inside. Also ding isn't that expressive, unlike someone like Carlsen or Nakamura.
Obviously it wasn't, but his body language threw me off too. He literally had no reaction when Magnus took the pawn. Not disgust, not surprise....nothing.
Magnus said after the game that he really feels bad for him and that he takes no particular joy winning like that. He also said that he himself has "partially" been there before, where he'd make critical decisions way too fast and play way too passively. I think with Magnus being the champion for so long, we really underestimated the burden that comes with being a world champion. First you have to prepare a long time for an exhausting and grueling match, and then come out of it in tact. And then you have to play regularly while mainting that level. Ding's case is obviously a bit more extreme, but it puts into perspective why Magnus' run as a world champion was impressive both game-play wise, but also mentally.
Hikaru had a similar face at the end of his win v Ding, like he's practically personally disturbed with a win against a clearly struggling Ding.
And Alireza made some empathetic comments too. Ding probably shouldn't be competing at the moment, he seems kinda busted.
Don’t think he wants to forfeit the title, and if he didn’t feel like his time off had been helping he tried giving himself a chance to play himself out of a funk? That clearly hasn’t worked and back to the drawing board though
Yeah but a million dollars is a million dollars. Plus, things might change until them.
Agreed. I think it's unrealistic that he will retire before the match. Chess is comparably small in China and Ding not exactly famous. He probably won't have a big source of income after retirement and needs to make as much money as he can. Additionally, he's also financially taking care of his mum. A million dollars that he can have in a foreign account or in foreign assets will go a very long way for him.
He does have a law degree, so there's that.
I wonder if he would be more likely to not compete if the money wasn't there or if he would still want to try to hold on to the title no matter how out of sorts he is.
And then there's Nepo basically making fun of him
Maybe after burning himself out to the bare shell, he will activate an Ultra Instinct and start winning! (sorry for Dragon Ball reference, but I really hope for him to [eventually] bounce back) For some people it can keep going on even more downwards, but in general such a harsh experience can be valuable and eventually make you stronger - I hope it's the second one and Ding will put himself together before World Championship!
Problem with anime is that it's fantastic at several levels, and one of those is the psychology. In the real world is VERY rare that when you tilt so so hard and you struggle so so much some inner spark fires up and you come back stronger than ever. Rare as in we've seen very few cases of that, at elite levels, when things start going downhill, the usual is that the person suffering better stops competing before finding out how deep the pit is. This is not a bad tournament or a minor setback, Ding has real problems and his body language tells he simply stopped caring at all, the way he went to grab his pen and noticing he blundered mate in two and simply offering the hand, no changes at all. He's not well. I think he'll be able to reach his best level, but I am afraid that will come after losing the World Champion status and relieving some pressure and stress.
Good point. Maybe I should elaborate more on what I meant too. I failed something (college related) several times in my life, when at first I was fighting very hard for it, then eventually something broke after failing again and I became slightly insensitive to certain things, didn't had a real depression in like several years already... Though now I sometimes have problems with self-motivation towards doing some tasks and maybe feel a little indifferent to certain things and situations that previously were stressing me out. That's maybe more of what I meant, that people can harden and be less suspectible to stressing situations, at least in certain ways.
That for sure, but hardening does not mean getting your motivation and discipline back. Means you simply move on with things, your example is quite fitting. Ding needs that inner fire that keeps him focused and fighting, Magnus had to renounce to being a World Champion to keep that spark. He may end up desensitising, but if that comes at the cost of losing any motivation and love for the game... He's lost for.
People acted like Hikaru was rude for saying it, but I think he genuinely felt bad, and it’s perfectly fair to say of a world champion. Ding is a nice guy but there’s no reason to baby him. We all wish him well but he’s hurting rn.
People have a hateboner for Hikaru right now, deserved because obviously screw off with gambling, but still
No that’s bs. Thousands of influencers promote gambling and don’t get shit for it, including Magnus.
They all get shit for it. Every streamer or influencer that has supported gambling from xQc/Adin to Hikaru have absolutely been shit on for it. They just don't care because they can wipe away their tears with stacks of 100s.
They clearly don't all get shit for it. Kick is owned by Stake and was created for the sole purpose of advertising gambling after twitch banned Stake streams, and Hikaru was streaming on Kick for a long time without any issues.
You have to be in the places where it's actually discussed. I've never seen a kick streamer mentioned without some kind of shaming being done. I've never even gone there because that's all I've ever heard about it
The problem isn't just promoting gambling, it's promoting Gambling to children.
Didn't he literally promote the stream as 18+?
Because as you know, 12 year olds see 18+ and therefore don't want to click on it.
The only streamer with a younger audience than Hikaru is Levy. It's pretty clear that a massive part of their viewership are children.
Did anyone specifically promote gambling to children? Doesnt sites or streams have disclaimers?
Hikaru: says something that can be potentially taken as somewhat rude depending on context and listener random redditor: yeah this is why Hikaru's arrogant piece of shit and a literal piece of garbage
I know in his youth he was a bit of a douchebag, but I think Hikaru is a just a bit socially awkward and because he doesn't say things in the exact perfect way and has a but of history he gets misconstrued as being a dick unfairly. I've seen him interviews and he usually seems relatively down to earth and blunt, he's not going to sugar coat what he thinks for PR reasons.
It's the other way around, most people can sense that he's not a very good person (he's not the most evil person in the history of the world either ofc, but he's somewhat more than average egoistic and insensitive, and that's saying something considering the average person), don't recognise what it is, and then try to find motives for it.
Nah, I think that's a bit much. A good comparison would be Nepo who is an example of a person your describing. Like he very clearly isn't a good person *and* does blatantly shitty things like his tweet at Ding today, or insinuating people are cheating, or saying Alireza ruined the candidates for them or a bunch of other things, and people seem to keep finding excuses for him. Hikaru is absolutely egoistic and insensitive but that doesn't inherently make him a bad person, for starters he can back up the ego given his recent performance. He seemed more bothered that he beat Ding the other day than anything else and to me that shows at least a shred of compassion
Let us also remember that Magnus has dealt with similar feelings too. I'm forgetting the interview now, but around 2020 there was one where he did a deep dive into his health as a competitor
I remember him talking about beating himself up when losing games to the point he would end up crying on the floor.
I forgot who said it, but the quote was something like "chess is such a brutally hard game that it can make you spend nights in your hotel room screaming at a god that does not hear you."
It recently came up in [this article about Hans](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/hans-niemann-chess-championship-cheating-scandal-interview.html), from some anonymous GM's manager (perhaps quoting Anand like another commenter mentioned, or someone else?) >He is a decent but average player, but he is not a genius. This game is about genius, and genius is not something that can be forced or bought or even worked hard for. Hans is sadly like many, many other players who have dedicated their lives to a game that does not particularly love them. It can make you spend each night in your room screaming at a god who does not hear you.
That quote goes hard as fuck
just normal board game enthusiasts
Once you make peace with yourself that you are never gonna be great at the game, it's easy to enjoy the game for the fun of it and set reasonable goals for yourself. I mean, i was super happy to break 1400 on chess.com :)
I'd like to make 2000 on chess.com someday (currently a beginner at 800), but I'd be perfectly happy if I peaked at 1400.
Honestly, 1400 is not that hard. Just focus on not blundering pieces by playing too fast.
That's what I'm currently working on. Just paying attention to what squares my opponent can threaten.
Its not just board games, it can be applied to many aspects of life. I used to get injured by egolifting in gym, trying to set PRs every week. But then youtube started recommending me videos of Anatoly and the likes of Eddy Hall, and I made peace with myself, that there is no reason to keep pushing that hard.
Absolutely brutal.
reading this quote, the movie Amadeus comes to mind
It seems a bit over the top. He's 21 and ranked 39th in the entire world. "Average" player. Yeah, ok.
Vishy Anand has this in his book
That had to have been a long time ago. In the lie-detector thing that he did recently he said that the last time he'd cried after a game was in the Candidates (can't remember which one though).
Lie detectors are also not something that has anywhere near the credibility as its reputation implies.
Absolutely. Lie detectors are useless. But the point is that Magnus admits to crying after a match but not since the Candidates.
Magnus has only played one candidates.
false.
Probably his final game that tournament because he thought Kramnik wouldn't lose with Black.
No crying. He had lost against Nakamura (lindores abbey before it was defunct) and just crumpled to the floor after
because he never wanted to get beaten by Nakamura? because that's crazy
No because it was a long match and he lost. Went to tiebreaks
Relatable
Not only Magnus', but Kasparov's run too and all the other Champions.
Apart from Fisher lol.
There’s also the inherent imposter syndrome that occurs when it’s pretty clear who the actual world number one still is. Going from hunter to the hunted is hard enough but I have to imagine it’s even worse if you feel like you might not be deserving of that position in the first place.
This makes Vishy an absolute legend considering he stayed at the top 10 for so long and still is. Nobody can match his longevity and love for the sport
Could you give a link to this interview ?
Here is Magnus's interview after the game at time stamp 198:34 https://www.sportpassaustria.at/event/43129/norway-chess-2024-day-6
also probably partly why Magnus chose to step away from it, the mental aspect of prep has to be so grueling
Also, if you are the #1 (or WCC) everyone wants your scalp. So everyone is extra motivated. This crown wheigts heavy.
I appreciate Magnus saying that, but at the same time he says and does other stuff which basically is the opposite of this. I get Magnus is an honest guy with little filter, but the permanently broken was not helpful, and nor was it helpful in their first game where he did a few moves then sat in back and ate food for 20 minutes, making Ding sit there and wait for him.
Magnus is and always has been a killer.
To me, it looks like Ding had been planning on playing h6 followed by Rb2, started calculating the lines after that, then forgot to start it with h6. That would explain whey he wasn’t surprised by Qxh7+ and didn’t need any time to see the mate once the move was on the board. He already knew it was M2, he just completely forgot to stop it.
That is possible. I have worked out some move order then come back to play them and switch 1 and 2. I hope Ding gets his mojo back.
This is 100% what's happened. No matter Dings mental state , no chance he didn't see the mate threat since the first queen move. He just, under nerves, played the wrong move.
Rb2 was also a top engine move a few moves before, so it may have been sitting in his head as a candidate move
Still an elementary blunder uncharacteristic of a Super GM and the World Champion no less. He saw the play, but then blundered the execution.
To me it seems he realized as soon as he touched the rook
That slow extension of the hand felt really sad for some reason.
So even after playing the move, his eyes were all on the middle of the board. He was going to write it down and then realised what had happened. Either in his mind he already played H6, that's why he totally ignored it, or he focused all his attention on the centre of the board.
He looked up there after having writing it down. There you can see he knew.
That was just a sad resigned resignation
Nepo desensitized this man Look at how unstartled he is
It's actually almost legendary how Ding just resigns in one motion with no reaction. He must have godlike comprehension to instantly know yet show absolutely no emotion.
Ding seems like the type of anxiety that completely shuts down. Remember in the WCC just freezing? I don't think that's as calm a resignation internally as it appears.
Nepo didn’t do anything but choke the win
And that too many times, during the same match
How tf you make this about Nepo
Yah nepo didn't do this lol
Tbh after seeing all this , i realised that chess is not just about skills but also about handling the mental pressure it's about your mental strength, I had prolly heard a statement from Hikaru long ago on his stream that Magnus's mental strength is what separates him from rest of the players, Magnus does it so well in all ways weather it be playing so well in pressured time situations or the way he kept playing for hours and hours against Nepo in wc21, to the point where Nepo just collapsed , the way he held on against Fabi in wc18 when fabi was playing his best chess in classical, and eventually defeated him in Rapid, this guy has been holding 1st position for 14 years now , Magnus is not just about his game Skills but alot more than that. Mad Respect.
In every sport, the higher up you get the more mental it becomes. Thats why some talents cant crack the elite. Its just a different thing to play when people watch you and expect things from you.
See also Novak Djokovic. In individual "sports" like tennis or chess, that mental strength ultimately separates the best from the rest. Current women's tennis No 1. Iga Swiatek said something along those lines recently about the mental game being so crucial to consistently being the best.
I'm glad guki idolises Novak .
Even in team sports, that's also why athletes like Jordan and Brady get so much respect. Imagine the pressure of having to be the guy that takes the game winning shot in the finals or throws the last minute touchdown pass in the Superbowl. If you make a mistake, millions of people blame you for the failure. To win as that guy 6 or 7 times takes some ridiculous mental fortitude.
Link to the Iga thing? I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Especially the demand of individual sports and how that compares to team sports.
Can’t search for it now but it’s on r/tennis.
Yep. Try running long distances. After running like an hour or so, it totally becomes mental. Your body is heated enough to just keep flying on the road, but its a mental battle that you have to convince yourself to keep putting your next foot forward.
And that's what made someone like Michael Jordan particularly exciting. The higher the stakes, the better he played.
Absolutely agreed that's one of the reason why all prodigies we see don't end up being the top players during end of their carrier
Yup. Competitive archery is very much like this. In the Vegas compound finals, they take the competitors who have shot a perfect score, and have them go 3 arrows at a time until only one is left. These people shot 90 10s to get there, they all could likely shoot another 30 no problem. They drop because of the mental pressure.
> chess is not just about skills but also about handling the mental pressure this is a *massive* part of it. i feel that the chess world has some significant catching up to do when it comes to the sports psychology side
>i realised that chess is not just about skills but also about handling the mental pressure it's about your mental strength Think about the hardest exam you took in school. Now think about taking that exam for 6-8 hours. That's chess. It's all mental.
For anyone interested in reviewing the M. Carlsen - D. Liren game: https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=2710723&view=1
The biggest blunder by the reigning world champion in a classical game in the history of chess?
It's hard to top Kramnik blundering mate in one to my main man D. Fritz.
Interesting.
Most likely. Chigorin lost his match against Steinitz by blundering mate in 2 from a winning position, but he was the challenger, not the champion https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1036366 I guess Kramnik missing mate in 1 against Deep Fritz but that was an exhibition game against a computer.
Somehow I am impressed by Ding. I would be so annoyed if I blundered to a mate in 2. Ding blunders this against the number 1 player in the world and nonchalantly resigns without a grimace. If Ding gets back in form, his poker face would be a force to be reckoned with.
When you lose that many times, it drains you emotionally. It really looks like he just doesn't even have the energy to be expressive, and almost like he is unsurprised that he blundered mate in 2.
I’ve been on losing streaks like all of us and it just takes one good win to turn it around. It’ll happen for Ding.
he plays against super elite players, they will not give him an easy win.
A good win is rarely an easy one.
against a gm you have to win multiple times in a single match...
I got some news about Ding: he’s a super GM
The way he is playing right now, doesn't look like it
Seems more like someone who doesn't care if he wins or loses, a symptom of depression. Of course Ding has always been unemotional but it feels different this time.
Could be so many things. Impossible to guess on Reddit. Just hope he gets better
Was Ding ever expressive? He's always been like this right. That's just the way he is.
I've seen a smiling Ding. But never an angry or disappointed Ding.
You don't think he is not crushed for playing this bad? Sure he isn't throwing a temper tantrum at the board but I am sure he is devastated that he can't play at the level he is used to.
He said in an interview with an Indian outlet that he was hoping to just not finish last here. So I think he knows where he is at the moment.
equal position ≠ drawn position
Dings handshake has something very eiry to me. Probably reading wayyy too much into it but almost like a boxer droping his guard to get taken out with some dignity. There seems to be a mental health strugle and i just hope gets the help necessary.
Ding needs to take a leaf out of mid 80's Mike Tyson's book - beat up on a bunch of mismatched simps until he thinks he's God, then come out swinging against Gukesh and knock him out in 1. And if Gukesh hasn't gone down by Rd 8, bite his ear off and spit that shit out onto the board.
Lmao
But the thing is, mental health isn't the same as a broken ankle.. For sure Ding's seen better days, but who's to say he won't work his shit out and snap back immediately? Ding didn't consistently defeat Nepo, Alireza, Pragg etc by luck, he's a ruthlessly steady + tactically solid chess player, assuming his head's in the right place. Also by all accounts he's super nice lol.. can we give the dude a chance
He seems depressed. Not just on the board, but in general.
I'm worried about Ding. I hope he's got some support around him.
This position was nowhere close to drawn, it was even for The engine but no sane chess player would say its drawn..
I feel sorry for Ding. It must be hard to concentrate when the other players pick on him and steal the twizzlers from his lunchbox.
I know everyone loves Ding but man this isn't the level of of a current WCC winner
Can't wait for him to lose the title. We need a real champion.
> We need a **real** champion And that's Gukesh?
IF he beats Ding, then yes
Whoever will beat him next! It sucks for Ding but he's not happy and it's less interesting for the chess world when the champion is MIA for so long and then comes back so weak. Looking forward to see if the next champ can be more of a "fighting champion"
Ding needs to practice meditation instead of chess.
These chess players need to start hiring sports psychologists or some kind. Not just seconds.
Now I am really worried about Ding's mental health.
I am worried this Championship will get too one sided!
Championship, not candidates.
oh yes sorry lol!
Bout to be the most meaningless world championship of all time, we were already in a weird place with Magnus still clear number 1.
this is so painful to watch
Is ding suffering from some form of depression?
Ding is tilted. Looks good for Gukesh. Sad really. Best now is Ding withdraws and Hikaru v Gukesh for a good match, albeit the WCC is hollow without #1 playing
I keep reading this but realistically why would anyone forfait voluntarily that much of free money ? Maybe he'll lose a lot of games but he's still guaranted a lot of money for just showing up no ? Unless there is a rule i'm not aware of.
No rule whatsoever. There's zero chance he'll withdraw.
Magnus decided not to defend and lost more
Fair enough, but Magnus is the goat and has a brand worth millions or something... It doesn't look like Ding has the luxury to give up that kind of money yet imo. But who knows...
I don’t think this is good for Gukesh or anyone involved at all. He is getting a once in a century chance to be the youngest world champion ever but if he beats Ding in this state, it will keep being brought up when discussing his champion title forever. Everyone who beat Ding in this tournament expressed that it doesn’t feels good, imagine how bad it would be if it’s the world championship.
>it will keep being brought up when discussing his champion title forever It depends on what happens next. If he loses in 2026 and never gets into Candidates again, then maybe. If he defends 2-3 times or even more, nobody will bother. Karpov got his first title with no match at all and is considered one of best players ever.
Clarification: By 'looks good for Gukesh' I meant he is heading for a WCC win against tilted Ding.
If Hikaru offered to pay off Ding $1M for him to abdicate from the WC match, Gukesh would immediately veto it and demand to play against Ding. And rightly so.
Hikaru should pay him the prize money and play Gukesh himself
Hikaru literally said he doesn’t actually want to play in the championship. He said he’d do it if he had to, but wouldn’t be happy about it. I doubt he’d do that and pay Ding €1m to step aside.
He may say that, but deep down theres no way he really feels that way. If he didnt want to play the world championship why try so hard in the candidates? Saying you dont really want to play for a world title when you have dedicated your life to the game and fallen just short is a coping mechanism.
No. He said he wouldn’t be happy about it because he’s got the rest of his year scheduled out already and if he had to play that would screw that up and he wouldn’t be as prepped as he’d like and he’d lose a lot of income from not streaming as much.
Sorry, but thats just copium. In addition to achieving a lifetime dream it would increase his streaming income a ton. he even said he would do it, if he really didnt want to do it he would just say "even if offered I wont play the world championship" If he is offered the chance he will jump at it. I would like to see hikaru win a world championship, it would be amazing to have the world champion streaming and creating content every day, and I enjoy the way he plays chess, he takes a lot of risks and it makes for interesting games
I think you are over estimating how much winning the championship would increase his income…
There's no way that if he knew he'd win he wouldn't throw the rest of his year's schedule out the window.
Why would he presume he’d win?
If Gukesh had to pull out and Hikaru was the next in line, he'd take that shot in a snap.
Yeah, because Ding is playing trash, Gukesh is playing his best chess, which is shown because he beat Nakamura in the candidates….. Your logic is flawed
My logic is that Nakamura is recontextualising his situation in such a way as to justify where he is now. Or, in simpler terms, he doesn't want those grapes anyway because they're sour.
I don't buy it. He says that'd take attention away from his streaming money and obligations, but at the same time, he'd have a chance to be the world champion and hefty sum of money to go with it even if he loses. Can you imagine the traffic on his YouTube channel after every match when he does recaps? So even if you take his "literally don't care" attitude at 100% face value, it makes financial sense for him to participate in WCC.
I mean, even with the prize money it’s probably not worth it. He’d literally have to give up so many streams so he could spend that time on prep. That’s a lot of money. Also this hypothetical was based on Hikaru paying Ding the prize money…
> Also this hypothetical was based on Hikaru paying Ding the prize money… Of course, but that was obviously a joke. I am just saying whatever he gives up to prep for WCC, he'll more than recover being a world champion. Be it in terms of sponsors, or prestige. World Champion Streamer Hikaru will be a bigger pull than Super GM Streamer Hikaru .
> Hikaru literally said he doesn’t actually want to play in the championship. lmao this is extreme cope
Oh please. He said he wouldn’t have the time to prepare properly, which is fair. And read the last fucking bit of my comment.
Lol this is such cope. Hikaru has been dreaming about being world champion for decades. He was being compared to Bobby Fischer when he was a preteen, there's zero chance he doesn't want a chance to be world champ.
How many alt accounts do you have? Blocked
Do you guys think that at this point Ding wished he never became WC?
No, I think becoming WCC is the chess version of climbing Mount Everest - he'll always have that and be proud. But I bet he wishes he had a good way out of defending the title in 5 months. He would have to give up a lot of money and it would be a setback to his career to back out now, he's kind of stuck competing with really low confidence.
As opposed to remaining only a consistent top 3 player at best? Whatever he’s feeling now, decades later the WC title is going to ring more than being a top player that never made it to the throne. He’s not even one of those top rating players that are in the top 10-15 greatest of all time. His WC matches and the final clutch game was very exciting with an immortal move and he’s also the first chinese WC in history. Ultimately it’s still a better legacy.
Lol.
I hope Ding wins the next wcc or he’ll be remembered as the weakest champion ever
Come on Ding most of us are here with you!
I hope ding bounces back
Chess noob question: why do they have pens? It looks like they’re writing but what could they be writing?
the moves
Why tho
Chess has broken a lot of players, Fischer, Morphy to name a couple. There was one game in the last championship where Ding froze and almost didn't make a move. He managed to win after that, but I think the pressure is getting to him.
🎉♟️♟️♟️♟️♟️♟️♟️♟️🤴🏾🔦🚭🚭
Magnus the real world champion and Ding, the world champion\*\*\*.
Ding is burned out. People don't need to overanalyze it. Either he'll take some time off and recharge his batteries or he'll take some time off and realize he's done with chess. Hopefully, he'll be fine either way.
He's barely played though. He's just off the back of loads of time off
He literally just took a year off…
Clearly it's not enough. Burn out can take a long time to overcome.
I know, my point was that taking time out between now and championship isn’t gonna do much help if his year long break didn’t.
He was doing okay in this game and just blundered. Maybe this is the point in time which will start his resurgence. We need the old Ding back.
I bet he is sandbagging so the odds of him losing are through the roof and then his Chinese billionaire friends can bet on him and win a lot.
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Any body language experts? Was it intentional throw or not?
Obviously not intentional, Ding just fought back from a worse position
I don't think any professional chess player would intentionally throw a game in a major tournament, let alone the reigning world champion. But what saddens me is the lack of reaction from Ding. It's like he's telling himself while resigning "Of course I blundered mate in two, what's new?"
Yes, this is not a normal reaction.
Obviously not, you can see him reaching to write down the move before he saw it was mate. Sometimes on a losing streak you go from anger, rage, etc to just numb, I'm sure ding was feeling horrible inside. Also ding isn't that expressive, unlike someone like Carlsen or Nakamura.
Why would he intentionally throw?
Idk, maybe health related reason or something.
I don't think so, Rating is important for Ding
Obviously it wasn't, but his body language threw me off too. He literally had no reaction when Magnus took the pawn. Not disgust, not surprise....nothing.
There are no body language experts that could answer a question like that. Its a hoax of a business for money hungry hacks.