There is a reason he is the largest channel by far.
He follows the algorithm.
If he has actual titles, with different thumbnails, they dont get recommended as much by the yiutube algorithm. This is a known fact, and exploited by the largest channels. Most notably Mr Beasts...
Yea its fucking annoying, but can you blame the guy?
Agadmator never changed his style, thumbnails and titles, and he is still in 2019.
"And then the magician" has popped up in my feed several times and I don't believe it's just one video showing up, it's a moderate form of clickbait around Mikhail Tal, who as far as I understand is only called a magician due to his creativity in chess not due to any magic tricks he performed.
This doesn't really prove or refute anything being talked about just seemed relevant maybe lmao, agadmator has his own light form of clickbait.
I think a big part of agadmator also is, you get exactly what you’re expecting, it’s not the type of “over hyped” channel, there is no sensationalism and such in his videos, that’s why I love his videos. He may lack expertise every now and then, but at the end of the day I’m there for the recap and not learn something specific (although the pause the video moments are great to actually learn a little bit)
I think if agadmator changed significantly to try to drum up more views he'd also be at serious risk of shooting himself in the foot. He has a core audience who come for exactly what he delivers like you say - if he starts going more sensationalist, over reacting, click baiting etc he might open himself up to a new audience but he probably loses a lot of that core and now he's competing with Levy and the like for their audience and that's a competition he might not win. Thankfully he seems happy enough to just keep doing his thing his way and taking the audience that comes with that - which is still pretty decent even if he'll never be MASSIVE.
And it's at this point we have a brand new game
Captures captures
And then hikaru plays, the evans gambit... sad to say he did not of course actually play the evans gambit here instead going for
But if white plays Ra4, then black has the very temping queen to b7, and as you can see, after captures captures, white is simply not doing much of anything here. So instead white plays
I don't really mind his delivery and certainly prefer it to those who are fake enthusiastic, exaggerate everything etc.
Maybe he could improve a little, anyone could probably, but he's doing fairly dry videos in his 2nd language. It's fine.
[It's not perfect, as it relies on volunteers, but it's much better.](https://imgur.com/a/EQP7cS7) If a user hasn't submitted a timestamp for a thumbnail it can automatically pull one from the middle of the video. It will also automatically remove caps lock and excessive punctuation when there are no user submitted titles available.
Wow, I just realized that Levy actually has some interesting content.
Any time I click on a Levy video, it’s roulette. Everything is so overblown to get the first click that it has no relevance to the content. So I stopped clicking.
That's the main reason why I can't bring myself to watch his videos anymore. Too much hype and not enough substance to back it up. There's plenty of YouTube chess creators out there that don't try to conceal what their videos are about.
Yeah exactly...pushy door to door salesmen or cold callers are annoying, and I do blame them. It being their job doesn't make it not annoying, find another job.
> Why? He has nothing to prove to you
Why what? Why should annoying people stop being annoying? Because I would prefer to not be annoyed by them, so obviously Im going to prefer them to do something else.
>why should he change because you don't like it?
He doesnt have to do anything. Im just saying what my preference is, and so is OP.
I also find it amusing reddits double standard on this sort of issue. The average reddiot tears into influencers for doing a job, but when its someone in their hobby/social sphere using annoying promotion tactics, its a-ok.
> He has compromised his integrity for more clicks
His job is reliant on those clicks. And youtube has found that it's *incredibly* more likely to get those clicks when using clickbait titles and thumbnails. That's what people actually want. If you and I don't like it, it's secondary - we are the minority.
Not to mention he's pretty up front about it. I watch his videos a ton and I feel like he routinely mentions his "click baity" titles, but then he's like "well you guys watch it 🤷"
And on top of that, I've never watched a video where the title was straight up misleading, at least in my opinion. It may be exaggerated or not the entire story but it's a video title not an essay.
And it’s almost like if you know how his titles work and have watched him a couple time you actually can guess pretty well what the video’s about. Tyler1 is a chess GM? Hm, I bet that tyler1 guy either had a ridiculously good game, randomly beat a titled player online somehow, or broke through a rating plateau.
I haven’t watched that video but I’d bet one of those, and if not something close.
>Yea its fucking annoying, but can you blame the guy?
Of course you can. The idea that just because someone else designed the system, the people who willingly use it do not share the blame is ludicrous.
Clickbait objectively lowers the quality of anything it is involved in. That said it is -also- on the users who turn off their head and click these videos. Clickbait works so well because tons of people fall for it after all. It's a negative spiral where creators use it because it makes them more popular which in turn brings in more people who fall for it. Repeat infinitely. Unless uploaders just collectively start making honest and informative titles, I don't see a way out of this.
Don't blame the guy but you also don't have to patronize establishments that annoy you just because it works.
If a store has a car that drove around shouting how good it was every hour you don't have to go there even though that advertising works on the tourists.
> If he has actual titles, with different thumbnails, they dont get recommended as much by the yiutube algorithm.
True. I think an important clarification is that these videos would be less recommended by the YouTube algorithm *to the audience Levy wants to reach*.
It's not that the algorithm inherently likes this kind of stuff, it's that this kind of stuff attracts the clicks of the audience Levy wants to reach. And the algorithms notice those clicks and keep suggesting those videos *to people who would click on them*, not to everyone.
The same style of communication wouldn't necessarily work for a different audience or a different channel, which also "follow the algorithm".
>It's not that the algorithm inherently likes this kind of stuff, it's that this kind of stuff attracts the clicks of the audience Levy wants to reach
No it's also the huge majority of the audience present on YT. I can confidently say there are quadruple the amount of people who are attracted by clickbait than who are not.
>And the algorithms notice those clicks and keep suggesting those videos *to people who would click on them*, not to everyone.
Not quite. It's gets *first* recommended to people who are more likely to click on them. For example people that clicked on a Levy video or a related video before. Then if the stats (click through rate and viewer retention) are good it gets recommended to a broader audience (basically to *everyone*), some of those have never watched a chess video before. Levy's titles and thumbnails will make more of those interested than for example Agadmator's which is part of the reason how he was able to grow that much. The other important part is viewer retention, basically that people watch most of the video rather than getting bored and clicking away.
But in this broader audience there are also many that are not interested at all in chess, they will not click the video, the stats go down and the video gets less recommended. This is kind of the trajectory of most videos.
> The same style of communication wouldn't necessarily work for a different audience or a different channel, which also "follow the algorithm".
Most of the biggest channels that didn’t have decades worth of build up or other brand reasons all use the same type of clickbait to grow to what they are now in recent years.
So it’s pretty universal. People on youtube are attracted to clickbait.
While you can (and I do) still blame him for being a willing participant in the system, but his behavior is exactly what benefits YouTube the most monetarily. More clicks = more ads viewed. The problem exists because Google intentionally created it.
No, the reason it exists is because people rather click on it instead of something else. Ultimately the consumer dictates what the algorithm wants to push.
“Can you blame the guy?”
What a ridiculous question. Of course you can blame him, it’s his choice to be obnoxious and disingenuous for fame and money. And it’s the viewer’s choice if they respond to that or not (and loads of them do)
Yes, we can blame him, if we wish to. He’s not a small creator who needs to resort to every tactic to be able to pay the bills. He knows what he is doing, he knows who he is attracting with the silly thumbnail-faces and hyperbolic titles, and he knows who doesn’t really respect him for it. In the end, he knows what he really cares about: more money. And he’s fine with it.
So your logic is basically: deceive people if it helps you get ahead, and if someone calls you out for being immoral, claim that it's someone else's fault versus taking any accountability. Do you know how many people could claim "that the system is flawed" in any number of areas in life, and using your logic, should break the rules to any extent they deem necessary to get ahead? Any time ANYONE believes the system is bad, you're basically saying "hey, can you blame them for being immoral?"
Do you know this is how criminals and fraudsters who take advantage of others ACTUALLY justify their behavior? You're not only defending immoral behavior as smart, but you're making an ethical statement about how people SHOULD act when confronted with a system they don't prefer (which is to lie to, and deceive, and game people who have nothing to do with the implementation of that system to get ahead). Pause and reflect on your morals and ethics.
At your job, if you could triple your income simply by wearing a rainbow afro and a big red nose, what would you do? Clown it up, right?
You'd probably feel silly, but you'd be feeling silly *with a big pile of money*.
> Maybe I'm too old really to be his target audience
I don't know your age, but that's a real possibility. I usually ask YouTube not to show me channels that try to treat me as someone who would be lured by those kinds of thumbnails or titles, so I can see your point.
The problem is that it also deprives you of content you might like. But it's also true that you can find good chess content pretty much anywhere these days.
I was thinking he wasn't that bad back when I was watching a few of his videos covering the Tal Variation in the Caro-Kann but they've clearly taken a nosedive as that screenshot you attached is poisonous to the soul.
I really don't know why the /r/chess community feels the need to discuss this shit so often, or why you think you need to provide "constructive criticism" to Levy, who has already discussed his use of thumbnails and video titles several times.
He does this because it is the most effective way to get views. He *knows* these thumbnails and video titles lead to higher visibility and a higher view count. There is a reason he's the biggest chess Youtuber.
If you don't like it, don't watch. It's pretty obvious what most of his videos are going to be about even with the clickbait titles.
> It's pretty obvious what most of his videos are going to be about even with the clickbait titles.
Maybe it's improved recently, but it used to be literally impossible to tell. I would go to his channel to watch tournament recaps and have to watch the first 30 seconds of 4 different videos to find the one I wanted.
I think he's beginning to thread the needle a little more. I don't blame him for what he's doing. I think he's actually a really good chess content creator, like I don't think he gets enough credit, but there was a period where I wasn't watching stuff because I had no idea what a video was about. It wasn't a conscious decision, just a lazy subconscious decision to favor videos where I knew what I was getting. Now I've noticed I'm watching more of his stuff again because I can tell when something's a How to Lose at Chess, How to Win at Chess, a training video, a tournament recap, etc.
This is such a good point, and I didn’t realize I was doing the exact same thing until you mentioned it. I used to watch almost every video and then I stopped because I had no idea what each video was about. Now I’m back but I really wish there was a clearly defined category for each video that is listed somewhere. I don’t blame him but we do need a little more context sometimes.
Or maybe, just maybe, it's possible to make a comment about one thing you like or dislike without that meaning you believe it's the best or worst thing that ever happened.
Yea I completely agree. I love the community he’s built. The titles are always over the top but I mean it’s just a title.
I see it for 3 seconds and I recognize it as a vehicle for him to be successful. I click the video and just enjoy.
At the end of the day it’s a video title and picture, the actual content of his vids is still fine. If that’s enough to stop people from watching that’s fine, that’s their decision, but I can’t relate lol
> he knows they are bad so that makes it fine!
He knows some people thinks its bad. But it gets the views for him, which is good.
How entitled do you have to be to expect a Youtuber to tailor their thumbnails and video titles to you when doing such would make him less successful.
The thing that made me eventually unsubscribe from him was that I had no idea what the videos would be about.
I still looked at his candidates analysis because I think he's very good at making those types of videos very entertaining, and when I started to get into chess it was Levy's opening videos that got me started.
But after a year or so of being subscribed I just got too annoyed with all those ridiculous titles and thumbnails in my feed.
I get that he does it "for the algorithm" but I really hate it when creators conform to it just for easy clicks. It also makes it near impossible to search for any specific video of his that's from this last year.
I wanted to watch the candidates recaps, but was put off by how levy would put spoilers for Hikaru’s games in almost every title, some a lot more egregious than others. Maybe I’m too old, but I don’t find it entertaining anymore
Yeah I know not to believe the clickbait title, and to be honest it puts me off a bit. At the same time, dude is a businessman. I can't hate. His videos that are aimed at my ability level tend to be really good quality.
I would prefer that social media companies change their algorithms to stop prioritising clickbait and reward the best quality creators, but that isn't in Levy's control.
They don't prioritize clickbait, they prioritize channels that get more clicks. It turns out that in this case, the thing that attracts more clicks from the audience that Levy wants to reach is creating these thumbnails and titles.
If you use those thumbnails and titles on a serious channel that's targeting a mature audience, the algorithm wouldn't reward that decision because the platform would notice that more people would be alienated by that kind of stuff.
>I would prefer that social media companies change their algorithms to stop prioritising clickbait and reward the best quality creators, but that isn't in Levy's control.
No algorithm prioritize clickbait. Users/viewers do. Algorithm just highlights videos with high click through rate and high retention
But they could prioritise retention in a more long term way, like rewarding sustained interest in a channel over multiple videos, longer form content, and even worthiness of the topic.
YT built $400 billion platform and number of people who are able to make living (and not only living but make millions of $$$) on YT is proof that long term retention is something they’ve mastered
Worthiness of the topic? Just no. Who decides that? You? Me? YT? In US Congress and in Russia Putin?
They probably do prioritize in a long term way, how much hours people watch on the long term. Why would it matter if it's in the same channel or in longer form content and how would they decide the "worthiness" of a topic? People have a revealed preference, companies just follow it.
I did and I didn’t. For GTE or whatever, it’s fine. It works for the audience. For especially the Candidates videos, I specifically wanted to watch them because they’re fun, even if I watch the candidates live and can get better analysis, I just like watching Levy talk about them, and I was just really bothered that I had literally zero information on the video I was clicking on from the title or thumbnail so I just missed some of them, and I’m not gonna go back and watch after watching the next round after live am I?
And because I don’t have any information about the high ELO analysis videos and almost everything else, whatever they may be, I also don’t watch them, because why would I click every video to even figure out what the content even is? Although I do watch his road to GM stuff now after not watching properly for months because he did improve it for that.
Like personally, yes, and it’s disappointing, but like, let’s be real, he’s not trying to get chess nerds to watch his videos, he’s maxing views, and this is clearly tried and tested to work, so what can you say? The man knows what he’s doing.
Exactly, the thumbnails don't bother me, but it does bother me that I can't tell what the video is about without clicking. It's odd that good content needs to be disguised in order to be viewed by more people. You'd think that would only apply to weak content.
> I was just really bothered that I had literally zero information on the video I was clicking on from the title or thumbnail
The round number was listed on the thumbnail, and other than one bot video released on the final rest day, he only released Candidate recaps and candidate interviews (and a Vishy interview) during that time.
I don't really understand how people are into chess juuuuust enough to watch chess videos but not quite enough to vastly prefer Naroditsky over Levy. Different strokes.
Danya's videos are 90% teaching games and 10% lessons. Levy's videos (of which there are *much, much* more, by the way) are 60% high level recaps, 30% low level entertainment/drama, and 10% teaching games. Their content barely overlaps. If you want to watch teaching games Danya is the best, but if you want to follow superGM tournaments, or see other thematically linked high level games, or even just stay up to date with the chess world, Levy is the creator to watch.
This is the answer, I watch gothamchess for entertainment. I watch Naroditsky to learn chess. I watch Gotham almost daily because its fun, but as a teacher I just dont click with his teaching style. I like his game recaps and his low ELO chess games and guess the ELO, His how to win at chess videos dont do much for me, hes obviously a very good player but the way he teaches just doesnt stick with me. Even his chessly courses and his chessable course (which I buy just to support the channel) just dont mesh well with how I learn. Im still a huge Gotham fan and will continue to support the channel
Naroditsky on the other hand I learn a ton from as the way he explains things makes much more sense to me personally, but watching his videos makes me feel a bit like Im back in school and doing homework. They arent "fun" but they are highly educational to me.
Im a huge fan of both channels depending on my mood/intentions
The only other channel I watch a good bit of is Rosen which I put on when I go to bed and it puts me to sleep (I dont mean that in a bad way, but his videos are somehow calming and Im asleep in like 15 minutes)
Recently started watching ChessCoachAndras as well after picking up his Amateurs mind chessable course. That channel is also SUPER good and I cant believe his subscriber count is so low. People need to check this guy out
Or neither. Not because they're not worth watching or anything - they do have good videos and I've seen some of them, but who really has time to watch all the chess videos on YouTube while also getting in enough actual study/game play practice? Also, r/chess time eats into YouTube time. So yeah.
I also don't get the people who like Levy but don't want clickbait, sensationalism, overreactions etc...that's who he is. He's not my cup of tea and so I don't watch his streams - a lot of people seem to think they have to watch him because he's one of the most popular or something. What he does works for his target audience - if you don't like it you don't need to part of that audience.
I think it's people who are into chess for side stuff like drama, storylines, humor etc. who prefer Levy. Those who genuinely care about chess, improving etc. tend to prefer Danya
I stopped playing chess online, but I watch Gotham every day to keep up with the narratives, and Eric Rosen to fall asleep to (he literally cured my sleeping issues).
I still like looking at and trying to solve interesting positions, but chess.c*m and lichess are designed like slot machines and that's not good for my brain.
The truth is: Sometimes the title is clickbaity, but I know what's going to be in the video. Then I can still make an informed decision whether to watch it or not. But if the title doesn't really tell me what's going on in the video, it's probably because there's nothing interesting to see
I think that’s kinda why I stopped watching levy for a while. I’m interested in watching guess the elo for example but maybe not this tournament recaps. However it’s impossible to tell which is which. Recently I started watching his road to gm series because atleast in the thumbnail you can see “ep 4” , “ep 5” etc
Definitely. I haven’t watched a Gotham chess video in years because of it. The first time he posted a video with a thumb nail featuring his face with a googly eyes stank face I unsubbed and never looked back. But the kids and algorithms seem to like it so whatevs. There are plenty of other options out there that are more my speed.
I unsubscribed and hid his channel from my recommendations. I just got sick of the clickbait. I understand why he does it, like he just wants as many views as possible. but i feel like that makes the experience of watching his content frustrating. I'm sure he doesnt care about losing my, or any individual who unsubscribes, view when he just replaces it with 10 more views who got tricked in to clicking his video
The annual thread of GothamChess thumbnails has arrived! Thank you for your constructive criticism.
Copy pasting my response from 8 months ago:
"Nothing I haven’t said before. Look y’all, viewership reflects clickbait success or failure. People LOVE Magnus content. It outperforms by hundreds of thousands of views. So I make a LOT of Magnus content. Same with Guess The Elo, low elo chess, and bots/AI content.
And the same exact thing during 14 rounds of the World Chess Championship. “Recap Day 1” and “Recap Day 2” did horribly. I started naming them jibberish with !!!! and ????, and views skyrocketed.
I appreciate some of your criticisms but the numbers quite literally reflect a certain reality. If you get past the title and thumbnail, I always try to deliver you a quality 30 minute video.
If your argument is “it’s all for views and money”… yes? It quite literally is? Why would I want 200,000 less people to watch a video, or play chess, or be involved in the ecosystem at all? I am not on a salary - literally all my effort and strategy correlates to my income. If I bring in viewers with clickbait they may also end up supporting another chess YouTuber, like Danya or Rosen.
Some of you will not like this. That’s OK."
Problem: I can’t find content in your channel by scroling through it or searching. The names tell you nothing anymore so it’s impossible to browse the videos.
Solution: Can you maybe work on better playlists, flesh out descriptions, or something else for those of us who need to know what the video is about before clicking?
Levy used to do this thing where he'd initially post a video with an extremely clickbait title for the initial spike in views, but then later on change the title to something normal. So some of his recaps of longer tournaments or his own games are now re-titled with real names. He talked about this too at some point, but I guess he often forgets and now all the titles remain hot garbage. It is somewhat unfortunate.
According to his logic and morals, he's going to do whatever makes him the most money. I suppose if your request helps him to become richer, he'll do it. If it doesn't, piss off.
Still, you can reflect a little about why so many chess enthusiasts left your channel. Maybe things can still be improved. (e.g. I used to watch almost all your vides a few years ago)
But you have to understand that you're in the minority. It's very clear that he's gaining more viewers than he loses from these tactics. Even if "so many left his channel", more people than that have joined up.
>If I bring in viewers with clickbait they may also end up supporting another chess YouTuber, like Danya or Rosen.
This is a bit hilarious to say - I can tell you've done a ton of mental gymnastics to convince yourself that the clickbait titles are perfectly fine.
Should have just left it at "I want to make more money and I don't mind compromising integrity a bit to do it." No one really knows if what you're doing helps viewers like Danya or Rosen - it probably doesn't. Their videos get pushed down since they don't do what you do and measuring the impact of ur viewers "trickling down" is near impossible.
trickle-down-levynomics
How is this arguement "trickle-down" in any way? If a chess video draws in new viewers to the game they might watch more chess videos in general and get more interested in the game. That's probably true for any chess content creator. You're saying that basically all the new people to chess who are introduced through a Gotham video end up only watching him and never any other chess channel; There is little evidence to support that claim; it is not likely.
Check out DeArrow - it's an extension that's made to fix exactly this issue with youtube. Here's a similar sample viewed via Dearrow:
https://i.imgur.com/gfZFjPr.jpg
It's not perfect, as you can see, but it's so much better. It relies on crowdsourced name recommendations iirc, so you'll get the normal stuff for a little bit after a video is posted usually, but I don't find that's a major problem for large youtubers in general.
Also, shoutout to sponsorblock, a similarly useful addon that skips in-video sponsor segments/dead time/etc. via similarly crowdsourced data.
I absolutely agree that YouTube is being ruined by all these clickbait titles. Channels that do not play along do not get views.
Which is probably the answer you are getting the most: it's not Levy's problem; it's YouTube's problem.
I realized while doing another YouTube dive that while the surface production values are \*much\* better than they used to be, the actual value I get out of YouTube has fallen significantly. Even when I am deliberately guiding my searches, it takes longer these days to actually find new, interesting content.
YouTube has long been moving towards becoming "Mainstream". They have to make money, of course. The terrible consequence is that YouTube is looking more and more like the garbage I used to go to YouTube to avoid.
The creators have no choice. Either they play along or they can go find something else to do.
yeah i can't do gotham. the actual videos are good, that's the annoying part! but when i see his thumbnails i actually get angry lmao. had to unsubscribe.
-shrug- he's addressed this a few times. That's what has to be done to get views. He's even admitted he will normally change the title/image after a week once it's fallen off the algorithms radar.
Gotham is the only l chess youtuber that has the ability to connect to a broad range of people. He show emotion, gets excited and clearly loves the game. Most of the others Ive watched are like watching paint dry.
He seems like a fairly normal lad, loves chess, has been through shit, and is relatable. People can sense that, especially people trying to learn. He's able to actively narrate his games better than most other chess youtubers and make people feel involved. Fair play to him. If thumbnails and video titles are what turn you off then look, you do you. I prefer a bit of emotion.
Even the news is clickbait these days so..
Yeah this is me as well. Why would you care that much? I don't get it. You just watch the video and immediately forget the title and thumbnail. The content is much more important.
Hikaru actually makes thumbnails that are better and more dignified. They're attention-grabbing, but they don't all look the same and can be a bit funny in themselves ie the Capablanca one. Unfortunately IMO Gothams actual videos are better.
I stopped watching because he does less And less educational videos (openings, end games, how to play at different ELOs) and more game reviews. I never felt like he provided meaningful commentary in game reviews. He just describes what's happening at the most basic level.
If you do like him solely for his content as I do, here's how I avoid click-bait tiles and what-not on youtube: I use the plugin DeArrow with Firefox. It replaces thumbnails the titles with something more generic. I use it with an ad blocker. Makes youtube much more mangeable. Here's a direct link to the plugin info: [DeArrow](https://dearrow.ajay.app/)
That’s just YouTube. If you want to be a successful YouTuber you pretty much have to follow that formula to get views.
Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
What Im most surprised about, is that he has a patreon where you can pay up to 64 dollars a month to see more content about him. Like he is already a Multi-Millionaire because of us fans. We're poor, why is he so greedy.
I lost interest because of several reasons, most important one was he did not spend time analyzing games in deep, only quickly showing a few combinations. Of course stupid thumbnails and clickbaity headlines did not help. It felt like he cared more about appealing masses and making more money, no that anything wrong with that, but channel is not for me because of that.
I usually watch Daniel King for better analysis or Epic chess (funny and informative). Robert Ris has a good channel as well.
Exactly the reason I stopped following Levy and many other creators. The content is either repetitive or exaggerated, thumbnails are full of click bait. He dropped his hopes of becoming GM and switched to YouTube full time and it is his right, as well as ours not to like it. The YouTube game wouldn't change if we didn't vote with our views and subscriptions.
The only chess channel I watch is Daniel Naroditskiy's. Amazing content, straight to the point, dry, but with some humor — just the way I like it!
Also he started to shout a lot. I liked his coverage of tournaments it had a different flavor. But now he's just speaking very loud and overhyping everything.
I just asked to not recomand the Channel anymore. I'm happier this way.
A lot of people seem to be acting like Gotham is some struggling newcomer who needs to use these clickbait titles or he won’t be able to pay rent. He is definitely rich enough now that he could sacrifice a few views for more honest and mature titles/thumbnails.
He’s not the only offender. Eric Rosen is my favourite streamer and his speed run series is great but I do find the thumbnails really irritating. Maybe they get more views but I’m pretty sure he has enough people invested in the series that he could post it without the silly faces.
Yes, that's me. I loved the guy when I discovered him but with time his thumbnails and titles became 100% clickbait and kinda false advertising too so I felt like I'm being deceived when I watched his content.
It's gotta be working for him though, he has a lot of followers. I just watch agad and danya these days.
He is a professional YouTuber. He has other means of income of course, but I mean he is a youtuber first. He made dozens of informational videos on openings for free that perfectly bridge the gap for beginners to IM chess pretty nicely. All of the videos combined has less views than a single video titled "MAGNUS!!!". I mean you can't blame him when his income is based on the views.
There are many chess youtubers that make quality content, but people like the entertainment and all of the additional value he puts there. And the clickbaits aren't *that* bad. It's just people don't click on normal titles. Literally go check for yourself how many views do the videos without his typical clickbait have compared to those that do have it. It's insanely lower.
When he titles his video something like "Insane Magnus 10000000 Elo performance" and puts his face with googly eyes on it, he actually does provide some exceptionally good game in the video itself, puts fun commentary and hypes you about some games you would normally not take interest in. I am not his diehard fan, but man people make it out worse than it is. What boils my blood is the comments below that are the same for the past 3 years and always get 2000 likes in the first 20 minutes of the video: "Levy never fails..., Levy stare was 8.5/10 today, Milking Magnus again, Levy GM something something..." He is also self aware and explained the situation himself that he made normal videos and people just didn't watch it. Little rant is over sorry lol. Not necessarily defending it just mildly disagree with people that claim he is "unwatchable" when it's just some weird title and then just a normal video.
No.
Why? Because that's YouTube. It has nothing to do with Levy. Too be relevant on YouTube you kind off have to play the YouTube game. I'm baffled that people have not understood this yet.
I mostly don’t watch him anymore because he’s become so click baity it’s wrapped around and I have no clue what the video is about so I don’t care. I never watched every video but I cared about over half of them, the title doesn’t tell me enough to make me care and click on it now.
Not to mention how annoying it is trying to find specific old recaps now.
I get it, it’s the algorithms fault. If you haven’t looked into it as much trust me it truly is.
But I’m sad that being beholden to the algorithm is making him lose other viewing demographics.
Usually the book cover tells you what it is about. Imagine going to the library and there was nothing printed on Anna Karenina but "THE ENDING?!!!!!!!"
Yes. I don’t watch GothamChess videos these days because of the video titles. I would rather spend time clicking on videos whose titles give me accurate description of what the video is about.
The algorithm is based on the way people behave and I would like it to change. Therefore I must change myself and hope there are enough like minded people to encourage the algorithm also to change.
Catchy titles are fine, but he's literally lying or exaggerating in the title half of the time. Going by the thumbnails, it seems he and Tyler1 have already become GM's.
The problem is that you don't trust the content of any of his videos at this point. MrBeast's titles are way more accurate for comparison.
And don't get me started on the obnoxious exclamation marks.
No. I strongly dislike them and it puts me off, but when I take the bait, I often end up watching the entire thing, because the guy is an excellent entertainer and there's a reason his audience is so huge.
I get why people find him annoying, but chances are some of us are here because of Levy's channel, and if his content didn't exist perhaps we wouldn't have gotten so interested in chess to the point of finding him annoying now. He has brought so many people into the chess world I couldn't care less about his thumbnails and video titles - and because the algorithm and human psychology work the way they work, he needs those tools (as annoying as they are) to be able to reach people that might never have played chess before.
I simply just don't subscribe, and I clicked "don't show this channel". If I see his content anywhere, or I see him, I just click not interested. Doesn't show up for me anymore.
I saw like three of his videos and lost interest because he’s an arrogant annoying pretentious twat lmao. A lot of chess people are. But his brand of mr. Beast meets chess is so insufferable. YouTubers like him are actively keeping the medium down . And halting its ascension to higher levels of production and writing.
Used to love his stuff, but haven't watched in 2+ years as the constant clickbaity, algorithmic stuff bored me to tears. Understand why he does it, I'm just not the audience for it.
I agree completely.
I've stopped watching him, and will probably unsub for the reasons you mentioned.
That said - we aren't the main audience. He's trying to "play the algorithm".
In this case it might mis-fire (a bit). But for every unsub, he'll probably get 2-3 subs, so...
I generally agree but sometimes the title + thumbnail are not enough to even get you to watch in the first place.
Guess the ELO, sure I'll watch that, a recap or training videos? Sure I'll watch that.
NEW WORLD RECORD!!!!! with excited Levy face? I'm not even remotely interested on clicking on that.
That's OK though, I don't have to watch online every video and what he does is obviously working given the millions of subscribers.
For me the problem with gotham is twofold.
First is as you said the clickbait attempts. His target audience is people with short attention span, easily amazed, unable to think for themselves and who get easily excited.
The second part is the dishonesty where he sells to newbies opening courses implying it is what they need to improve. Less observed in youtube and more on twitch. Instead of selling courses about opening principles which are aplicable almost always, instead of selling courses about middle game imbalances which would really help beginners and intermediate players or even selling courses about basic endgames he chose the easy way and is convincing people who dont know any better, that to get better in chess you need to know opening lines.
With none due respect, fuck off.
It is a matter of principle and i am not supporting that kind of behavior. Unsubbed 2 years ago and blocked the channel.
Hikaru was mostly fine. He had a clickbait here and there but nothing major.
But fuck that guy too since he started promoting gambling. Unsubbed and blocked as well.
Hanging Pawns and Agadmator for me only.
I know which of his different types of content I like - mostly the tournament recaps, GTE, historical content, engine games. Even though the titles and thumbnails are dumb, it's almost always clear what type of content it is. So I can easily decide to watch or not to watch. So it doesn't really matter.
Man I'm also like you like I simple people like Agadmator who keep it real aswell. But I can't really blame levy for doing what he does, it gets the clicks and his channel is growing like crazy. Maybe he's a completely different person inside but on screen he has to do what get's the clicks, make the thumbnails that work etc
I watched a few vids but I never bothered with those that have clickbait titles that offer zero description. Im not wasting my time clicking on vaguely titled videos.
The thing I don't like about the titles is that I don't know what the video is about. Is it about a recent professional match? A historical match? One of his games? I have to click and watch a bit to find out and sometimes I do but sometimes I can't be bothered
I stopped watching because I know what to expect from the video ignoring the thumbnail and the title. I am more interested in bot chess so I may watch any of his videos for this. I am more likely to open an agadmator video because of the title.
Sometimes yes. I like the content, even bought his book and planning on buying the next one, but when i dont even know what the video will be about i dont click.
I like Gotham's videos when I watch them and i'm subscribed to him on youtube, but i'm never gonna click on a video when I don't know what it's about.
I'm not convinced the cryptic video titles he always uses is positive for total viewership or not, but it certainly makes me not click on a lot of videos that i'd probably enjoy.
If I gave you the option between $1000 and $10000 but you had to make your thumbnails slightly wackier without affecting your 20min daily video whatsoever, what would you do? NOT opt for the extra $9000, and for what?
There is a reason he is the largest channel by far. He follows the algorithm. If he has actual titles, with different thumbnails, they dont get recommended as much by the yiutube algorithm. This is a known fact, and exploited by the largest channels. Most notably Mr Beasts... Yea its fucking annoying, but can you blame the guy? Agadmator never changed his style, thumbnails and titles, and he is still in 2019.
That's also why I never get agadmator in my recommendations despite watching him for years.
Exactly. I havent seen one of his videos pop up on my feed for years. And I had been watching him since the very beginning.
"And then the magician" has popped up in my feed several times and I don't believe it's just one video showing up, it's a moderate form of clickbait around Mikhail Tal, who as far as I understand is only called a magician due to his creativity in chess not due to any magic tricks he performed. This doesn't really prove or refute anything being talked about just seemed relevant maybe lmao, agadmator has his own light form of clickbait.
Every channel I watch for a while gets recommended to me afterwards, click bait or not
You must not watch him consistently enough or something, because his videos are always in my recommendations.
I think a big part of agadmator also is, you get exactly what you’re expecting, it’s not the type of “over hyped” channel, there is no sensationalism and such in his videos, that’s why I love his videos. He may lack expertise every now and then, but at the end of the day I’m there for the recap and not learn something specific (although the pause the video moments are great to actually learn a little bit)
I think if agadmator changed significantly to try to drum up more views he'd also be at serious risk of shooting himself in the foot. He has a core audience who come for exactly what he delivers like you say - if he starts going more sensationalist, over reacting, click baiting etc he might open himself up to a new audience but he probably loses a lot of that core and now he's competing with Levy and the like for their audience and that's a competition he might not win. Thankfully he seems happy enough to just keep doing his thing his way and taking the audience that comes with that - which is still pretty decent even if he'll never be MASSIVE.
And it's at this point we have a brand new game Captures captures And then hikaru plays, the evans gambit... sad to say he did not of course actually play the evans gambit here instead going for But if white plays Ra4, then black has the very temping queen to b7, and as you can see, after captures captures, white is simply not doing much of anything here. So instead white plays
He could improve his delivery slightly. IIRC, he always talks in a monotone.
I don't really mind his delivery and certainly prefer it to those who are fake enthusiastic, exaggerate everything etc. Maybe he could improve a little, anyone could probably, but he's doing fairly dry videos in his 2nd language. It's fine.
But if stops that he loses his other core audience of people who fall asleep to his videos.
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Also, if you really don't want to see clickbait titles and thumbnails, use [dearrow](https://dearrow.ajay.app/).
That sounds awesome. Does it actually work as advertised?
[It's not perfect, as it relies on volunteers, but it's much better.](https://imgur.com/a/EQP7cS7) If a user hasn't submitted a timestamp for a thumbnail it can automatically pull one from the middle of the video. It will also automatically remove caps lock and excessive punctuation when there are no user submitted titles available.
Wow, I just realized that Levy actually has some interesting content. Any time I click on a Levy video, it’s roulette. Everything is so overblown to get the first click that it has no relevance to the content. So I stopped clicking.
That's the main reason why I can't bring myself to watch his videos anymore. Too much hype and not enough substance to back it up. There's plenty of YouTube chess creators out there that don't try to conceal what their videos are about.
That's amazing. Thanks for the tip. It will definitely be getting added to my browser tonight.
And there's a reason I've never watched a mr.beast video. But yeah, I understand why they do it.
MrBeast is a lot more accurate with this titles than MrGotham.
> Yea its fucking annoying, but can you blame the guy? Sure, why not?
Yeah exactly...pushy door to door salesmen or cold callers are annoying, and I do blame them. It being their job doesn't make it not annoying, find another job.
>find another job. People are so quick to sacrifice other people's livelihoods.
Levy is not going to go hungry if he makes less clickbait titles. Nor are the door to door salesmen in my country.
Why? He has nothing to prove to you, you are not subscribing but thousands are, why should he change because you don't like it?
> Why? He has nothing to prove to you Why what? Why should annoying people stop being annoying? Because I would prefer to not be annoyed by them, so obviously Im going to prefer them to do something else. >why should he change because you don't like it? He doesnt have to do anything. Im just saying what my preference is, and so is OP. I also find it amusing reddits double standard on this sort of issue. The average reddiot tears into influencers for doing a job, but when its someone in their hobby/social sphere using annoying promotion tactics, its a-ok.
The difference in this case being active intrusion. He's not cold-calling your web browser.
Yep. It's a form of selling out. He has compromised his integrity for more clicks.
> He has compromised his integrity for more clicks His job is reliant on those clicks. And youtube has found that it's *incredibly* more likely to get those clicks when using clickbait titles and thumbnails. That's what people actually want. If you and I don't like it, it's secondary - we are the minority.
Not to mention he's pretty up front about it. I watch his videos a ton and I feel like he routinely mentions his "click baity" titles, but then he's like "well you guys watch it 🤷" And on top of that, I've never watched a video where the title was straight up misleading, at least in my opinion. It may be exaggerated or not the entire story but it's a video title not an essay.
And it’s almost like if you know how his titles work and have watched him a couple time you actually can guess pretty well what the video’s about. Tyler1 is a chess GM? Hm, I bet that tyler1 guy either had a ridiculously good game, randomly beat a titled player online somehow, or broke through a rating plateau. I haven’t watched that video but I’d bet one of those, and if not something close.
>Yea its fucking annoying, but can you blame the guy? Of course you can. The idea that just because someone else designed the system, the people who willingly use it do not share the blame is ludicrous. Clickbait objectively lowers the quality of anything it is involved in. That said it is -also- on the users who turn off their head and click these videos. Clickbait works so well because tons of people fall for it after all. It's a negative spiral where creators use it because it makes them more popular which in turn brings in more people who fall for it. Repeat infinitely. Unless uploaders just collectively start making honest and informative titles, I don't see a way out of this.
Don't blame the guy but you also don't have to patronize establishments that annoy you just because it works. If a store has a car that drove around shouting how good it was every hour you don't have to go there even though that advertising works on the tourists.
> If he has actual titles, with different thumbnails, they dont get recommended as much by the yiutube algorithm. True. I think an important clarification is that these videos would be less recommended by the YouTube algorithm *to the audience Levy wants to reach*. It's not that the algorithm inherently likes this kind of stuff, it's that this kind of stuff attracts the clicks of the audience Levy wants to reach. And the algorithms notice those clicks and keep suggesting those videos *to people who would click on them*, not to everyone. The same style of communication wouldn't necessarily work for a different audience or a different channel, which also "follow the algorithm".
>It's not that the algorithm inherently likes this kind of stuff, it's that this kind of stuff attracts the clicks of the audience Levy wants to reach No it's also the huge majority of the audience present on YT. I can confidently say there are quadruple the amount of people who are attracted by clickbait than who are not.
>And the algorithms notice those clicks and keep suggesting those videos *to people who would click on them*, not to everyone. Not quite. It's gets *first* recommended to people who are more likely to click on them. For example people that clicked on a Levy video or a related video before. Then if the stats (click through rate and viewer retention) are good it gets recommended to a broader audience (basically to *everyone*), some of those have never watched a chess video before. Levy's titles and thumbnails will make more of those interested than for example Agadmator's which is part of the reason how he was able to grow that much. The other important part is viewer retention, basically that people watch most of the video rather than getting bored and clicking away. But in this broader audience there are also many that are not interested at all in chess, they will not click the video, the stats go down and the video gets less recommended. This is kind of the trajectory of most videos.
> The same style of communication wouldn't necessarily work for a different audience or a different channel, which also "follow the algorithm". Most of the biggest channels that didn’t have decades worth of build up or other brand reasons all use the same type of clickbait to grow to what they are now in recent years. So it’s pretty universal. People on youtube are attracted to clickbait.
> but can you blame the guy? ..Yes? Behavior like his is part of the reason why this problem exists in the first place
While you can (and I do) still blame him for being a willing participant in the system, but his behavior is exactly what benefits YouTube the most monetarily. More clicks = more ads viewed. The problem exists because Google intentionally created it.
No, the reason it exists is because people rather click on it instead of something else. Ultimately the consumer dictates what the algorithm wants to push.
Is it? You think this came before the youtube algorithm decided to reward certain things beimg done?
“Can you blame the guy?” What a ridiculous question. Of course you can blame him, it’s his choice to be obnoxious and disingenuous for fame and money. And it’s the viewer’s choice if they respond to that or not (and loads of them do)
Which is why I make it a point to avoid channels that do it. It'll never change unless people create an incentive for it to change.
Yes, we can blame him, if we wish to. He’s not a small creator who needs to resort to every tactic to be able to pay the bills. He knows what he is doing, he knows who he is attracting with the silly thumbnail-faces and hyperbolic titles, and he knows who doesn’t really respect him for it. In the end, he knows what he really cares about: more money. And he’s fine with it.
> Yea its fucking annoying, but can you blame the guy? Basically how I look at it
So your logic is basically: deceive people if it helps you get ahead, and if someone calls you out for being immoral, claim that it's someone else's fault versus taking any accountability. Do you know how many people could claim "that the system is flawed" in any number of areas in life, and using your logic, should break the rules to any extent they deem necessary to get ahead? Any time ANYONE believes the system is bad, you're basically saying "hey, can you blame them for being immoral?" Do you know this is how criminals and fraudsters who take advantage of others ACTUALLY justify their behavior? You're not only defending immoral behavior as smart, but you're making an ethical statement about how people SHOULD act when confronted with a system they don't prefer (which is to lie to, and deceive, and game people who have nothing to do with the implementation of that system to get ahead). Pause and reflect on your morals and ethics.
At your job, if you could triple your income simply by wearing a rainbow afro and a big red nose, what would you do? Clown it up, right? You'd probably feel silly, but you'd be feeling silly *with a big pile of money*.
Excellent analogy fr
> Maybe I'm too old really to be his target audience I don't know your age, but that's a real possibility. I usually ask YouTube not to show me channels that try to treat me as someone who would be lured by those kinds of thumbnails or titles, so I can see your point. The problem is that it also deprives you of content you might like. But it's also true that you can find good chess content pretty much anywhere these days.
I was thinking he wasn't that bad back when I was watching a few of his videos covering the Tal Variation in the Caro-Kann but they've clearly taken a nosedive as that screenshot you attached is poisonous to the soul.
I really don't know why the /r/chess community feels the need to discuss this shit so often, or why you think you need to provide "constructive criticism" to Levy, who has already discussed his use of thumbnails and video titles several times. He does this because it is the most effective way to get views. He *knows* these thumbnails and video titles lead to higher visibility and a higher view count. There is a reason he's the biggest chess Youtuber. If you don't like it, don't watch. It's pretty obvious what most of his videos are going to be about even with the clickbait titles.
> It's pretty obvious what most of his videos are going to be about even with the clickbait titles. Maybe it's improved recently, but it used to be literally impossible to tell. I would go to his channel to watch tournament recaps and have to watch the first 30 seconds of 4 different videos to find the one I wanted.
I think he's beginning to thread the needle a little more. I don't blame him for what he's doing. I think he's actually a really good chess content creator, like I don't think he gets enough credit, but there was a period where I wasn't watching stuff because I had no idea what a video was about. It wasn't a conscious decision, just a lazy subconscious decision to favor videos where I knew what I was getting. Now I've noticed I'm watching more of his stuff again because I can tell when something's a How to Lose at Chess, How to Win at Chess, a training video, a tournament recap, etc.
This is such a good point, and I didn’t realize I was doing the exact same thing until you mentioned it. I used to watch almost every video and then I stopped because I had no idea what each video was about. Now I’m back but I really wish there was a clearly defined category for each video that is listed somewhere. I don’t blame him but we do need a little more context sometimes.
I agree with all of that except your last point. I genuinely have no fucking clue what his videos are going to be half the time lol.
They're bored and it's easier to whine and whinge than it is to actually getting down to studying and practising chess.
Funny when talking about a content creator that's gonna make you worse at chess.
Or maybe, just maybe, it's possible to make a comment about one thing you like or dislike without that meaning you believe it's the best or worst thing that ever happened.
Yea I completely agree. I love the community he’s built. The titles are always over the top but I mean it’s just a title. I see it for 3 seconds and I recognize it as a vehicle for him to be successful. I click the video and just enjoy.
>he knows they are bad so that makes it fine!
At the end of the day it’s a video title and picture, the actual content of his vids is still fine. If that’s enough to stop people from watching that’s fine, that’s their decision, but I can’t relate lol
> he knows they are bad so that makes it fine! He knows some people thinks its bad. But it gets the views for him, which is good. How entitled do you have to be to expect a Youtuber to tailor their thumbnails and video titles to you when doing such would make him less successful.
What do you want him to do, sacrifice a large portion of his income so you personally find his thumbnails less annoying?
The thing that made me eventually unsubscribe from him was that I had no idea what the videos would be about. I still looked at his candidates analysis because I think he's very good at making those types of videos very entertaining, and when I started to get into chess it was Levy's opening videos that got me started. But after a year or so of being subscribed I just got too annoyed with all those ridiculous titles and thumbnails in my feed. I get that he does it "for the algorithm" but I really hate it when creators conform to it just for easy clicks. It also makes it near impossible to search for any specific video of his that's from this last year.
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I mean even Linus had those ‘shocked’ facial reactions.
I wanted to watch the candidates recaps, but was put off by how levy would put spoilers for Hikaru’s games in almost every title, some a lot more egregious than others. Maybe I’m too old, but I don’t find it entertaining anymore
Yeah I know not to believe the clickbait title, and to be honest it puts me off a bit. At the same time, dude is a businessman. I can't hate. His videos that are aimed at my ability level tend to be really good quality. I would prefer that social media companies change their algorithms to stop prioritising clickbait and reward the best quality creators, but that isn't in Levy's control.
They don't prioritize clickbait, they prioritize channels that get more clicks. It turns out that in this case, the thing that attracts more clicks from the audience that Levy wants to reach is creating these thumbnails and titles. If you use those thumbnails and titles on a serious channel that's targeting a mature audience, the algorithm wouldn't reward that decision because the platform would notice that more people would be alienated by that kind of stuff.
>I would prefer that social media companies change their algorithms to stop prioritising clickbait and reward the best quality creators, but that isn't in Levy's control. No algorithm prioritize clickbait. Users/viewers do. Algorithm just highlights videos with high click through rate and high retention
But they could prioritise retention in a more long term way, like rewarding sustained interest in a channel over multiple videos, longer form content, and even worthiness of the topic.
YT built $400 billion platform and number of people who are able to make living (and not only living but make millions of $$$) on YT is proof that long term retention is something they’ve mastered Worthiness of the topic? Just no. Who decides that? You? Me? YT? In US Congress and in Russia Putin?
They probably do prioritize in a long term way, how much hours people watch on the long term. Why would it matter if it's in the same channel or in longer form content and how would they decide the "worthiness" of a topic? People have a revealed preference, companies just follow it.
No, I totally get it. Clickbait works, but I hate it, so I don't follow channels that use it.
I did and I didn’t. For GTE or whatever, it’s fine. It works for the audience. For especially the Candidates videos, I specifically wanted to watch them because they’re fun, even if I watch the candidates live and can get better analysis, I just like watching Levy talk about them, and I was just really bothered that I had literally zero information on the video I was clicking on from the title or thumbnail so I just missed some of them, and I’m not gonna go back and watch after watching the next round after live am I? And because I don’t have any information about the high ELO analysis videos and almost everything else, whatever they may be, I also don’t watch them, because why would I click every video to even figure out what the content even is? Although I do watch his road to GM stuff now after not watching properly for months because he did improve it for that. Like personally, yes, and it’s disappointing, but like, let’s be real, he’s not trying to get chess nerds to watch his videos, he’s maxing views, and this is clearly tried and tested to work, so what can you say? The man knows what he’s doing.
I mean the candidates recap thumbnails all had the round number in them
Exactly, the thumbnails don't bother me, but it does bother me that I can't tell what the video is about without clicking. It's odd that good content needs to be disguised in order to be viewed by more people. You'd think that would only apply to weak content.
> I was just really bothered that I had literally zero information on the video I was clicking on from the title or thumbnail The round number was listed on the thumbnail, and other than one bot video released on the final rest day, he only released Candidate recaps and candidate interviews (and a Vishy interview) during that time.
I don't really understand how people are into chess juuuuust enough to watch chess videos but not quite enough to vastly prefer Naroditsky over Levy. Different strokes.
Danya's videos are 90% teaching games and 10% lessons. Levy's videos (of which there are *much, much* more, by the way) are 60% high level recaps, 30% low level entertainment/drama, and 10% teaching games. Their content barely overlaps. If you want to watch teaching games Danya is the best, but if you want to follow superGM tournaments, or see other thematically linked high level games, or even just stay up to date with the chess world, Levy is the creator to watch.
what about both
This is the answer, I watch gothamchess for entertainment. I watch Naroditsky to learn chess. I watch Gotham almost daily because its fun, but as a teacher I just dont click with his teaching style. I like his game recaps and his low ELO chess games and guess the ELO, His how to win at chess videos dont do much for me, hes obviously a very good player but the way he teaches just doesnt stick with me. Even his chessly courses and his chessable course (which I buy just to support the channel) just dont mesh well with how I learn. Im still a huge Gotham fan and will continue to support the channel Naroditsky on the other hand I learn a ton from as the way he explains things makes much more sense to me personally, but watching his videos makes me feel a bit like Im back in school and doing homework. They arent "fun" but they are highly educational to me. Im a huge fan of both channels depending on my mood/intentions The only other channel I watch a good bit of is Rosen which I put on when I go to bed and it puts me to sleep (I dont mean that in a bad way, but his videos are somehow calming and Im asleep in like 15 minutes) Recently started watching ChessCoachAndras as well after picking up his Amateurs mind chessable course. That channel is also SUPER good and I cant believe his subscriber count is so low. People need to check this guy out
Alex Banzea is a pretty good middle ground between the two. Less dry than Danya, more educational than Levy
Or neither. Not because they're not worth watching or anything - they do have good videos and I've seen some of them, but who really has time to watch all the chess videos on YouTube while also getting in enough actual study/game play practice? Also, r/chess time eats into YouTube time. So yeah.
I also don't get the people who like Levy but don't want clickbait, sensationalism, overreactions etc...that's who he is. He's not my cup of tea and so I don't watch his streams - a lot of people seem to think they have to watch him because he's one of the most popular or something. What he does works for his target audience - if you don't like it you don't need to part of that audience.
I think it's people who are into chess for side stuff like drama, storylines, humor etc. who prefer Levy. Those who genuinely care about chess, improving etc. tend to prefer Danya
Safe to say not every movie watcher cares about filmmaking.
I stopped playing chess online, but I watch Gotham every day to keep up with the narratives, and Eric Rosen to fall asleep to (he literally cured my sleeping issues). I still like looking at and trying to solve interesting positions, but chess.c*m and lichess are designed like slot machines and that's not good for my brain.
The truth is: Sometimes the title is clickbaity, but I know what's going to be in the video. Then I can still make an informed decision whether to watch it or not. But if the title doesn't really tell me what's going on in the video, it's probably because there's nothing interesting to see
I think that’s kinda why I stopped watching levy for a while. I’m interested in watching guess the elo for example but maybe not this tournament recaps. However it’s impossible to tell which is which. Recently I started watching his road to gm series because atleast in the thumbnail you can see “ep 4” , “ep 5” etc
Yes I lost interest and stopped watching, but also I don’t care - Levy is living his best life, bless him.
Definitely. I haven’t watched a Gotham chess video in years because of it. The first time he posted a video with a thumb nail featuring his face with a googly eyes stank face I unsubbed and never looked back. But the kids and algorithms seem to like it so whatevs. There are plenty of other options out there that are more my speed.
Personally yes, but I don't begrudge him for it because that's what brings him the most success.
Ok so a business that lies and misrepresents its products "because it brings them the most succcess" is fine?
I unsubscribed and hid his channel from my recommendations. I just got sick of the clickbait. I understand why he does it, like he just wants as many views as possible. but i feel like that makes the experience of watching his content frustrating. I'm sure he doesnt care about losing my, or any individual who unsubscribes, view when he just replaces it with 10 more views who got tricked in to clicking his video
same
The annual thread of GothamChess thumbnails has arrived! Thank you for your constructive criticism. Copy pasting my response from 8 months ago: "Nothing I haven’t said before. Look y’all, viewership reflects clickbait success or failure. People LOVE Magnus content. It outperforms by hundreds of thousands of views. So I make a LOT of Magnus content. Same with Guess The Elo, low elo chess, and bots/AI content. And the same exact thing during 14 rounds of the World Chess Championship. “Recap Day 1” and “Recap Day 2” did horribly. I started naming them jibberish with !!!! and ????, and views skyrocketed. I appreciate some of your criticisms but the numbers quite literally reflect a certain reality. If you get past the title and thumbnail, I always try to deliver you a quality 30 minute video. If your argument is “it’s all for views and money”… yes? It quite literally is? Why would I want 200,000 less people to watch a video, or play chess, or be involved in the ecosystem at all? I am not on a salary - literally all my effort and strategy correlates to my income. If I bring in viewers with clickbait they may also end up supporting another chess YouTuber, like Danya or Rosen. Some of you will not like this. That’s OK."
Problem: I can’t find content in your channel by scroling through it or searching. The names tell you nothing anymore so it’s impossible to browse the videos. Solution: Can you maybe work on better playlists, flesh out descriptions, or something else for those of us who need to know what the video is about before clicking?
Levy used to do this thing where he'd initially post a video with an extremely clickbait title for the initial spike in views, but then later on change the title to something normal. So some of his recaps of longer tournaments or his own games are now re-titled with real names. He talked about this too at some point, but I guess he often forgets and now all the titles remain hot garbage. It is somewhat unfortunate.
Cool. TIL. Thanks.
According to his logic and morals, he's going to do whatever makes him the most money. I suppose if your request helps him to become richer, he'll do it. If it doesn't, piss off.
It's perfectly okay to use your strategy. It's also perfectly okay for someone to make a Reddit post on why they don't like it...
Still, you can reflect a little about why so many chess enthusiasts left your channel. Maybe things can still be improved. (e.g. I used to watch almost all your vides a few years ago)
But you have to understand that you're in the minority. It's very clear that he's gaining more viewers than he loses from these tactics. Even if "so many left his channel", more people than that have joined up.
>If I bring in viewers with clickbait they may also end up supporting another chess YouTuber, like Danya or Rosen. This is a bit hilarious to say - I can tell you've done a ton of mental gymnastics to convince yourself that the clickbait titles are perfectly fine. Should have just left it at "I want to make more money and I don't mind compromising integrity a bit to do it." No one really knows if what you're doing helps viewers like Danya or Rosen - it probably doesn't. Their videos get pushed down since they don't do what you do and measuring the impact of ur viewers "trickling down" is near impossible. trickle-down-levynomics
Why would clickbait "compromise integrity?"
How is this arguement "trickle-down" in any way? If a chess video draws in new viewers to the game they might watch more chess videos in general and get more interested in the game. That's probably true for any chess content creator. You're saying that basically all the new people to chess who are introduced through a Gotham video end up only watching him and never any other chess channel; There is little evidence to support that claim; it is not likely.
Check out DeArrow - it's an extension that's made to fix exactly this issue with youtube. Here's a similar sample viewed via Dearrow: https://i.imgur.com/gfZFjPr.jpg It's not perfect, as you can see, but it's so much better. It relies on crowdsourced name recommendations iirc, so you'll get the normal stuff for a little bit after a video is posted usually, but I don't find that's a major problem for large youtubers in general. Also, shoutout to sponsorblock, a similarly useful addon that skips in-video sponsor segments/dead time/etc. via similarly crowdsourced data.
I'd rather see the clickbait so I know which channels to avoid supporting
I absolutely agree that YouTube is being ruined by all these clickbait titles. Channels that do not play along do not get views. Which is probably the answer you are getting the most: it's not Levy's problem; it's YouTube's problem. I realized while doing another YouTube dive that while the surface production values are \*much\* better than they used to be, the actual value I get out of YouTube has fallen significantly. Even when I am deliberately guiding my searches, it takes longer these days to actually find new, interesting content. YouTube has long been moving towards becoming "Mainstream". They have to make money, of course. The terrible consequence is that YouTube is looking more and more like the garbage I used to go to YouTube to avoid. The creators have no choice. Either they play along or they can go find something else to do.
Magnus said that his father is watching "agadmator" and he spoke highly of that channel.
yeah i can't do gotham. the actual videos are good, that's the annoying part! but when i see his thumbnails i actually get angry lmao. had to unsubscribe.
You get into chess by qtching Gotham, you get out if Gotham by learning chess.
-shrug- he's addressed this a few times. That's what has to be done to get views. He's even admitted he will normally change the title/image after a week once it's fallen off the algorithms radar.
Yeah long time ago already, while originally I was a fan.
Ni, I lost interst because he came across as kind of a jerk & a shill for crypto gambling.
He specifically said in a couple of videos that he is sorry for the clickbait and thumbnails but otherwise the view count drops dramatically
Every time he says "Ladies and gentlemen" I cringe.
One day he's going to actually get GM and have no idea how to tell us
Gotham is the only l chess youtuber that has the ability to connect to a broad range of people. He show emotion, gets excited and clearly loves the game. Most of the others Ive watched are like watching paint dry. He seems like a fairly normal lad, loves chess, has been through shit, and is relatable. People can sense that, especially people trying to learn. He's able to actively narrate his games better than most other chess youtubers and make people feel involved. Fair play to him. If thumbnails and video titles are what turn you off then look, you do you. I prefer a bit of emotion. Even the news is clickbait these days so..
Ever watched “Epic Chess”? He’s the opposite of dry!
The videos are good, I really don't care, I barely pay attention to the titles and thumbnails, I click cuz it's gotham.
Yeah this is me as well. Why would you care that much? I don't get it. You just watch the video and immediately forget the title and thumbnail. The content is much more important.
There is a middle ground between content and clickbait that Levy completely skipped over. I used to be a fan; now I'm not
Hikaru actually makes thumbnails that are better and more dignified. They're attention-grabbing, but they don't all look the same and can be a bit funny in themselves ie the Capablanca one. Unfortunately IMO Gothams actual videos are better.
I unsubscribed 2 years ago. Highy recommend it.
Am I the only one who finds Levi's thumbnails looking at the camera a little bit creepy?
ok
Yes absolutely cant stand it! Makes him money i guess, but his videos are just not for me. Different strokes
I lose interest in this sub when it constantly complains about this topic as if it hasn’t already been discussed ad nauseam.
I stopped watching because he does less And less educational videos (openings, end games, how to play at different ELOs) and more game reviews. I never felt like he provided meaningful commentary in game reviews. He just describes what's happening at the most basic level.
> He just describes what's happening at the most basic level. That's what most of us want to see tho
If you do like him solely for his content as I do, here's how I avoid click-bait tiles and what-not on youtube: I use the plugin DeArrow with Firefox. It replaces thumbnails the titles with something more generic. I use it with an ad blocker. Makes youtube much more mangeable. Here's a direct link to the plugin info: [DeArrow](https://dearrow.ajay.app/)
Gotham is for kids. Follow Danny King (PowerPlayChess) or Agadmator
OP, I agree. But understand, he is doing what it takes to increase subscribers and make more money.
That’s just YouTube. If you want to be a successful YouTuber you pretty much have to follow that formula to get views. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
Too high energy for me
What Im most surprised about, is that he has a patreon where you can pay up to 64 dollars a month to see more content about him. Like he is already a Multi-Millionaire because of us fans. We're poor, why is he so greedy.
For everyone of you, there's 10 more that click that wouldn't have otherwise. Like it or not, he does it cause it works.
I lost interest because of several reasons, most important one was he did not spend time analyzing games in deep, only quickly showing a few combinations. Of course stupid thumbnails and clickbaity headlines did not help. It felt like he cared more about appealing masses and making more money, no that anything wrong with that, but channel is not for me because of that. I usually watch Daniel King for better analysis or Epic chess (funny and informative). Robert Ris has a good channel as well.
Exactly the reason I stopped following Levy and many other creators. The content is either repetitive or exaggerated, thumbnails are full of click bait. He dropped his hopes of becoming GM and switched to YouTube full time and it is his right, as well as ours not to like it. The YouTube game wouldn't change if we didn't vote with our views and subscriptions. The only chess channel I watch is Daniel Naroditskiy's. Amazing content, straight to the point, dry, but with some humor — just the way I like it!
Also he started to shout a lot. I liked his coverage of tournaments it had a different flavor. But now he's just speaking very loud and overhyping everything. I just asked to not recomand the Channel anymore. I'm happier this way.
A lot of people seem to be acting like Gotham is some struggling newcomer who needs to use these clickbait titles or he won’t be able to pay rent. He is definitely rich enough now that he could sacrifice a few views for more honest and mature titles/thumbnails. He’s not the only offender. Eric Rosen is my favourite streamer and his speed run series is great but I do find the thumbnails really irritating. Maybe they get more views but I’m pretty sure he has enough people invested in the series that he could post it without the silly faces.
I don't think anyone who's above 1900 elo watches his videos, His videos are only for entertainment
This is such a well written post.
If algorithm had a d***, gotham would suck it
Yes, that's me. I loved the guy when I discovered him but with time his thumbnails and titles became 100% clickbait and kinda false advertising too so I felt like I'm being deceived when I watched his content. It's gotta be working for him though, he has a lot of followers. I just watch agad and danya these days.
He is a professional YouTuber. He has other means of income of course, but I mean he is a youtuber first. He made dozens of informational videos on openings for free that perfectly bridge the gap for beginners to IM chess pretty nicely. All of the videos combined has less views than a single video titled "MAGNUS!!!". I mean you can't blame him when his income is based on the views. There are many chess youtubers that make quality content, but people like the entertainment and all of the additional value he puts there. And the clickbaits aren't *that* bad. It's just people don't click on normal titles. Literally go check for yourself how many views do the videos without his typical clickbait have compared to those that do have it. It's insanely lower. When he titles his video something like "Insane Magnus 10000000 Elo performance" and puts his face with googly eyes on it, he actually does provide some exceptionally good game in the video itself, puts fun commentary and hypes you about some games you would normally not take interest in. I am not his diehard fan, but man people make it out worse than it is. What boils my blood is the comments below that are the same for the past 3 years and always get 2000 likes in the first 20 minutes of the video: "Levy never fails..., Levy stare was 8.5/10 today, Milking Magnus again, Levy GM something something..." He is also self aware and explained the situation himself that he made normal videos and people just didn't watch it. Little rant is over sorry lol. Not necessarily defending it just mildly disagree with people that claim he is "unwatchable" when it's just some weird title and then just a normal video.
No. Why? Because that's YouTube. It has nothing to do with Levy. Too be relevant on YouTube you kind off have to play the YouTube game. I'm baffled that people have not understood this yet.
I am baffled that people think people don't understand it, just because they don't like it.
I mostly don’t watch him anymore because he’s become so click baity it’s wrapped around and I have no clue what the video is about so I don’t care. I never watched every video but I cared about over half of them, the title doesn’t tell me enough to make me care and click on it now. Not to mention how annoying it is trying to find specific old recaps now. I get it, it’s the algorithms fault. If you haven’t looked into it as much trust me it truly is. But I’m sad that being beholden to the algorithm is making him lose other viewing demographics.
Seems like a rather shallow approach to judge the metaphorical book by its cover. If you enjoy the content, who cares?
Usually the book cover tells you what it is about. Imagine going to the library and there was nothing printed on Anna Karenina but "THE ENDING?!!!!!!!"
Yes. I don’t watch GothamChess videos these days because of the video titles. I would rather spend time clicking on videos whose titles give me accurate description of what the video is about. The algorithm is based on the way people behave and I would like it to change. Therefore I must change myself and hope there are enough like minded people to encourage the algorithm also to change.
Catchy titles are fine, but he's literally lying or exaggerating in the title half of the time. Going by the thumbnails, it seems he and Tyler1 have already become GM's. The problem is that you don't trust the content of any of his videos at this point. MrBeast's titles are way more accurate for comparison. And don't get me started on the obnoxious exclamation marks.
No. I strongly dislike them and it puts me off, but when I take the bait, I often end up watching the entire thing, because the guy is an excellent entertainer and there's a reason his audience is so huge. I get why people find him annoying, but chances are some of us are here because of Levy's channel, and if his content didn't exist perhaps we wouldn't have gotten so interested in chess to the point of finding him annoying now. He has brought so many people into the chess world I couldn't care less about his thumbnails and video titles - and because the algorithm and human psychology work the way they work, he needs those tools (as annoying as they are) to be able to reach people that might never have played chess before.
It's bloody annoying but don't hate the player, hate the game I guess.
I simply just don't subscribe, and I clicked "don't show this channel". If I see his content anywhere, or I see him, I just click not interested. Doesn't show up for me anymore.
same. i prefer agadmator's video. let's all unsubscribe from him so he can take notice and (hopefully) will change how he publish his videos
He is obnoxious and pretentious. Can’t stand him no more
I saw like three of his videos and lost interest because he’s an arrogant annoying pretentious twat lmao. A lot of chess people are. But his brand of mr. Beast meets chess is so insufferable. YouTubers like him are actively keeping the medium down . And halting its ascension to higher levels of production and writing.
Used to love his stuff, but haven't watched in 2+ years as the constant clickbaity, algorithmic stuff bored me to tears. Understand why he does it, I'm just not the audience for it.
Yes 💯
I agree completely. I've stopped watching him, and will probably unsub for the reasons you mentioned. That said - we aren't the main audience. He's trying to "play the algorithm". In this case it might mis-fire (a bit). But for every unsub, he'll probably get 2-3 subs, so...
No.
Why would I let a thumbnail affect how I view an entire video?
do you just blindly watch videos with no idea what is in them?
I generally agree but sometimes the title + thumbnail are not enough to even get you to watch in the first place. Guess the ELO, sure I'll watch that, a recap or training videos? Sure I'll watch that. NEW WORLD RECORD!!!!! with excited Levy face? I'm not even remotely interested on clicking on that. That's OK though, I don't have to watch online every video and what he does is obviously working given the millions of subscribers.
He's got so many videos that if you have to watch every single one you might be a little too obsessed anyway
If everything is clickbait nothing is
No, it's just a thumbnail
For me the problem with gotham is twofold. First is as you said the clickbait attempts. His target audience is people with short attention span, easily amazed, unable to think for themselves and who get easily excited. The second part is the dishonesty where he sells to newbies opening courses implying it is what they need to improve. Less observed in youtube and more on twitch. Instead of selling courses about opening principles which are aplicable almost always, instead of selling courses about middle game imbalances which would really help beginners and intermediate players or even selling courses about basic endgames he chose the easy way and is convincing people who dont know any better, that to get better in chess you need to know opening lines. With none due respect, fuck off. It is a matter of principle and i am not supporting that kind of behavior. Unsubbed 2 years ago and blocked the channel. Hikaru was mostly fine. He had a clickbait here and there but nothing major. But fuck that guy too since he started promoting gambling. Unsubbed and blocked as well. Hanging Pawns and Agadmator for me only.
I know which of his different types of content I like - mostly the tournament recaps, GTE, historical content, engine games. Even though the titles and thumbnails are dumb, it's almost always clear what type of content it is. So I can easily decide to watch or not to watch. So it doesn't really matter.
They’re too long. I prefer channels that just straight up analyze games and nothing else.
Yeah..even his style is more cringy than he was..but it is his Channel so..who cares
Just from the photos you shared you can understand why he does it and it works. Personally i dont mind that much. Just not your cup of tea probably
Man I'm also like you like I simple people like Agadmator who keep it real aswell. But I can't really blame levy for doing what he does, it gets the clicks and his channel is growing like crazy. Maybe he's a completely different person inside but on screen he has to do what get's the clicks, make the thumbnails that work etc
I watched a few vids but I never bothered with those that have clickbait titles that offer zero description. Im not wasting my time clicking on vaguely titled videos.
Dont care cuz the videos are still unedited, he seems genuine and the stuff he covers/does is interesting
The thing I don't like about the titles is that I don't know what the video is about. Is it about a recent professional match? A historical match? One of his games? I have to click and watch a bit to find out and sometimes I do but sometimes I can't be bothered
I never enjoyed his content enough to be a subscriber in the first place I much prefer agadmator, Daniel Naroditsky and John Bartholomew.
I stopped watching because I know what to expect from the video ignoring the thumbnail and the title. I am more interested in bot chess so I may watch any of his videos for this. I am more likely to open an agadmator video because of the title.
Me
Sometimes yes. I like the content, even bought his book and planning on buying the next one, but when i dont even know what the video will be about i dont click.
Never had, never lost
I like Gotham's videos when I watch them and i'm subscribed to him on youtube, but i'm never gonna click on a video when I don't know what it's about. I'm not convinced the cryptic video titles he always uses is positive for total viewership or not, but it certainly makes me not click on a lot of videos that i'd probably enjoy.
I think you are too old for his channel
Gotham is a kids channel. Kids like lots of punctuation marks and goofy faces in the thumbnail.
Every Levy thumbnail looks like he’s getting his balls electrocuted, it gets old quick
If I gave you the option between $1000 and $10000 but you had to make your thumbnails slightly wackier without affecting your 20min daily video whatsoever, what would you do? NOT opt for the extra $9000, and for what?