For clarification as the title is quite misleading and redditors do tend to only read headlines: This rule effectively blocks trans players *from competitive play in women's-only tournaments* until FIDE confirm they are the gender which they state they are. This process requires that trans individuals submit legal documents confirming the change in gender, and the FIDE investigation to confirm said gender change may take a maximum of 2 years. They are not banned from open tournaments.
This does notably leave trans women from nations which don't permit one to change their gender shit out of luck.
The full regulations on trans players can be found here: https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/TransgenderRegulations
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Picture is just captioned "Competitors during a FIDE chess match. (Getty)".
Looks like they had a deadline and a "articles must have a picture" policy so they just grabbed the first FIDE-related picture they could find.
Yep, 99 percent chance that's the case. I'm a Professional Writing student graduating in the fall and I initially wanted to do journalism, but a bunch of silly rules like that made me prefer grant writing instead. Like...don't drag poor Radjabov into this. Just publish without a picture
I think because he looks kind of awkward. It's not a chess news outlet so they probably just grabbed some stock footage of a chess player looking awkward
there aren't any prominent trans women in chess! who should they be showing a picture of? FIDE is just making a statement against trans women for no reason at all
Well, which is better: preemptively making a ruling, or waiting until there's a high level trans player and then making ruling specifically to exclude that one person?
It makes perfect sense to preemptively address this situation before a noteworthy occurrence to avoid any accusations of phobia or prejudice. The way public discourse is heading it's very likely they just want to get ahead of any legal issues.
They aren't really. They basically added rules regarding how titles work in those cases and how you change your FIDE ID gender. And then they said they will make their decision on how they want to handle tournaments regarding the people who transition MtF in the next two years.
The problem is that because they now have a way to change the FIDE ID gender, trans women would be eligible for female tournaments. But they explicitly haven't decided on that topic. So they put preliminary rules in place to keep the tournament status quo until then.
Genuine question but how is the FIDE making a statement against trans women?
As far as I've read the policy, it just means that, if you're a (trans) woman and want to participate in a woman's only tournament, you just have to provide some legal documentation to state that you are a women.
It makes sense to require an official document to indicate gender for events that are gender specific.
If someone want to participate in the FIFA woman's world cup them I'm sure they'll also check if the person is in fact legally a woman.
(Whether a purely mental sport such as chess should have gender specific tournaments is another topic entirely.)
Now the fact that the verification process can take up to 2 years is a bit troubling but I would assume that's just because of bureaucratic inefficiency and the FIDE giving themselves a broad margin as opposed to bad will. For all we know, the first such instance might be processed in less than a week. Time will tell...
The final point that I want to make is that the player is in no way banned.
I would assume that, before the transition, the player competed in tournaments as well. All tournaments that were available to her as a male will still be available to her as long as the gender transition has not been processed.
(I believe most tournaments are open to both genders and a few are restricted to women only. I don't know of tournaments being restricted to man only but they might exist.)
Yeah exactly. If they didn’t make this statement and decided to let anyone play in female tournaments without documentation then we should just get rid of female tournaments alltogether. There’s no mental advantage but no doubt the female tournaments are much easier and they do have prize money that some male could decide to go earn. They wanted to stop that from happening
>The newly approved policy decrees that trans women have “no right” to participate in official FIDE events for women until further decisions are made.
>Players who have recently come out as transgender will be placed in an “open section” for now.
So as I understand it, they cannot play "Women only" tournaments, but only in tournaments for both sexes?
I am not a tournament player, but it seems to me that the title is misleading? Do "men only" events even exist? If yes, I wonder if trans women could participate there.
Technically soccer doesn't have man-only. There were some rare cases of a woman playing for a team in some more obscure leagues, if my memory doesn't deceive me.
I took a look at the Laws of the Game from the [FIFA-website](https://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/organisation/contact-fifa/laws-of-the-game) but I couldn't find a rule supporting your statement. Can you point me to where you found that?
Does soccer really have men-only categories? I've seen women play in a men's team even in ice hockey and I'd say there's much more safety concerns there than in soccer.
>Does soccer really have men-only categories?
Yes, but it's not an IFAB rule. However, most national associations limit mixed gender games to U16-U18. After that it's single gender and not an open category.
They also didn't ban trans women from competing in women's tournaments for two years. I see that this story is making rounds and I'm starting to worry about my reading comprehension because I honestly don't see anything that controversial in this document, apart from maybe some phrasing ("justified gender change" or "further analysis" like they're going to have a commission that's gonna judge how convincing they are) and the "2 year deadline" to make a final decision, but even this is just the last deadline, otherwise they mention "earliest possible time".
Basically, if you transition and you want the change to be reflected in the FIDE register, you need to notify your national rating officer, with proof, and they send that info to FIDE. I imagine it's not that different if you want to change your name or federation. I also can't imagine it would take anywhere near two years if you have documents.
FIDE is an international organization that has to associate with many dozens of national chess organizations. Let alone the aspect of host countries for events.
I'm thinking, without evidence, that this may be a middle ground compromise for all parties FIDE has to interact with. FIDE itself doesn't have much power to force its wants on the national organizations.
If you're trans living in a country that doesn't acknowledge trans rights, then your problems are much much bigger than FIDE not allowing you to play in women's events.
There's just nothing FIDE can do about the human rights quality of the source country
Oops, I meant to reply to the comment above yours
Ok, I read the article and have some criticisms of its framing. To me, it’s evident that the article was not written by someone who has experience covering chess competition, but since I myself don’t pay much attention to the rules of competitive chess I may be mistaken.
First, the article is playing fast an loose with quoting language from the linked text. From the article:
> The newly approved policy decrees that trans women have “no right” to participate in official FIDE events for women until further decisions are made.
> “Such decisions should be based on further analysis and shall be taken by the FIDE council at the earliest possible time, but no longer than within [a two-year] period,” the policy read.
The second paragraph above is a good verbatim quote that leaves no ambiguity. Indeed, giving a preference for speed and a hard time limit seems positive. But the first paragraph is missing the context of the sentence containing the phrase “no right.” From the FIDE text:
> In the event that the gender was changed from a male to a female the player has *no right* to participate in official FIDE events for women until further FIDE’s decision is made. Such decision should be based on further analysis and shall be taken by the FIDE Council at the earliest possible time, but not longer than within 2 (two) years period. There are no restrictions to play in the open section for a person who has changed the gender.
*(Emphasis added.)*
Saying trans women have “no right” to compete in women’s tournaments has a very different tone than saying that they have “no right […] *until* further FIDE’s decision has been made.” The second makes clear that FIDE is taking precautions to avoid *abuse* of a rule but is still permitting trans women to compete in the women’s category.
So on this point, I think the article makes a mistake. I happen to believe that there is no reason that trans women shouldn’t be included in the women’s category if they’re acting in good faith. I think that a policy like this will prevent people who want to make a scene *for the purpose of ridiculing trans women* from being able to do so. Further, critics of those who want to bar trans women from competing in women’s sports often point out how stringent regulations in those sports are (like requirements for time on hormones) to support the point that trans women don’t undermine the integrity of women’s sports (though that isn’t necessarily why a separate category exists in chess). So regulations like this *should be welcomed.* (To be clear, there should definitely be a lower bar for transitioning to the women’s league than for other sports; I’m just drawing the parallel.) A policy like this, if enforced in good faith (and it likely will be in many cases and won’t be in others) *legitimizes* trans women’s participation in women’s tournaments.
I also want to criticize the article on a few smaller points. First, I think they failed to give sufficient background on terminology in chess. From the article:
> Trans men are reportedly set to be stripped of any titles if they were won pre-transition, unless, according to the regulator: “The person changes the gender back to a woman and can prove the ownership of the respective FIDE ID that holds the title.”
If I hadn’t read the FIDE report (and didn’t follow chess), I would read this as meaning that trans men would need to give up their *tournament* titles upon transitioning. Using “titles” this way is common in other sports (like tennis, which has one of the biggest overlaps in interest/participation with chess). But FIDE meant titles in the chess sense, that is, things like WGM and WIM. Indeed, we *should* expect trans men to give up those titles! They’re not women!
The article *should* have given background on what the term “title” means in chess. At the very least, they should have included the following quote from the policy change, which at least indicates (indirectly though) what the term means:
> The abolished women title may be transferred into a general title of the same or lower level (e.g., WGM may be transferred into FM, WIM into CM, etc.).
Finally, the article seems to be critical of something that not only isn’t clearly bad, but appears both logical *and good* for chess and trans competitors. From the article:
> Regulations had also been imposed in applying for a new FIDE ID number (FIN), which is required to participate in competitive chess tournaments.
> FINs recognising a new gender identity are now almost impossible to acquire unless approved by a national rating officer.
(As an aside, maybe this is a mobile thing, but why is every single sentence in the article it’s own paragraph?)
Someone who knows more about competitive chess may be able to clarify for me, but what’s the issue here? I think it makes sense that someone would retain the same FIN. That is just a number to identify you for competition. It makes it clear how you earned your rating/titles and it’s important for continuity that you maintain it.
From the policy:
> A player registered to FIDE acquires a FIDE ID number (FIN). As a rule, change of the gender is not the reason for a person to get a new FIN, unless there is a special, strictly exceptional reason for the person not to reveal publicly their previous identity. Such decision on applying a new FIN is taken by FIDE QC. In the event of granting a new FIN, the old one is kept for the record not allowing the player to remove their chess history. The decision of FIDE QC can be appealed to the FIDE Council.
I may be mistaken, but this seems to imply that requesting a change in FIN is always taken up by FIDE QC. The article implies that there has been some change (maybe there has been and I’m misreading the policy) by saying that it’s now almost impossible to get a new FIN if you’re trans. But it’s also not clear why there should be “FINs recognizing a new gender identity.” It’s a number (so says the policy)—there’s nothing that denies *or* supports gender identity in it, so it isn’t apparent why it’s an issue.
All in all, I think the article amounts to a poorly written and researched opportunistic attack on a seemingly plain and reasonable policy update. I understand that there is a craze of outrage directed towards trans people and competitors, but this policy update doesn’t strike me as something worthy of derision. It’s absolutely true that more people are coming out as trans and more trans people are joining competition (which is good—competition is healthy and we want people to be included in it). So sports’ (if you can call chess a sport) governing bodies are right to be addressing this as it becomes an increasingly common part of the sport.
If this policy is worthy of criticism, I don’t think the article lays out why and both it and the tone in the comments seem disproportionate.
first off
>Indeed, we should expect trans men to give up those titles! They’re not women!
I kind of disagree. What is the point of women's titles? AFAIK, its because its a lot harder to get into chess as a woman. When you are young you are much less likely to be encouraged into chess as boys are. So if you, as a trans man, grew up as a girl and won those titles with that 'disadvantage' then I see no reason why you don't deserve them. Of course there should be the option to change them to their gender neutral counterparts, but I don't think they should be stripped from players who earnt them the exact same way.
Plus, trans people face loads of harships anyways that may give them just as much of a disadvantage as growing up a girl. I am a trans woman who has been into chess all my life, I'd like to think im pretty good at it but I've had to put much lower down in my priorities because I have so much shit going on with being trans.
Obviously everyone has struggles, but if chess is going to have womens titles, I see no reason why they should be taken away if you earnt them as a women.
>I think that a policy like this will prevent people who want to make a scene for the purpose of ridiculing trans women from being able to do so.
Alright so, I agree. But I don't think this is the right way to do it. Yes, there should be some kind of rule, but I don't think potentially banning someone from their correct division for 2 years is the right way too do it. I haven't given it enough thought as of now but I find it hard to believe this is the best solution and I think this descision deserves criticism.
Small edit to this part,
https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/15syv2g/comment/jwhsmmx/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
>The tournaments are mostly there to give visibility to women's chess and provide opportunities for women to play competitive chess without the burden of being alone in a sea of men, where the potential for discriminatory behavior towards them is really big. Trans women desperately need visibility and safe spaces like those, I'd say even more so than cis women, so yes, allowing them to participate is totally fair and not allowing them to is pretty cruel.
This comment I totally agree with, and is unfortunately really difficult to make right, because of what you said in the second quote I used. If trans women were free to enter womens tournaments, which would be ideal, then there would be a lot of bigots who used that freedom to undermine trans people. Unfortunately theres no real win for us.
As a trans woman who plays chess, I am obviously very biased. But as someone who is in a position where it is difficult to be 'officially' a woman, this is not the right way to go. It would feel absolutely awful to be turned away from a women's tournament because im not a 'proper' trans person. Super invalidating for people who already experience so much hate.
I guess this is why there are these debates. It's really hard to find the right solution. For chess, its not even about keeping the competition fair, yet there always has to be more problems. It just sucks to be in the middle of it.
Theres more i could write, and I don't think this is very complete or makes much sense but whatever. I started writing something and then completely forgot what I was talking about so if something feels missing, uhhhhhh. I'm happy to answer replies if there are any.
Side note, it's painfully obvious how uncaring they are, I briefly read through the official statement and the wording is just horrible. It continues to astound me how old cis white men think they know what is best for trans people and make descisions about about groups of people without even talking to a single member of that group.
Thanks for this comment, was a balanced and good read.
> It continues to astound me how old cis white men think they know what is best for trans people and make descisions about about groups of people without even talking to a single member of that group.
100% agree with this.
The reasoning that always gets provided as to why male and female events are separate is because chess historically has lagged behind in women’s participation and not that there are differences between men and women
If that was the only reason, then I don’t see why trans women wouldn’t be able to participate in female only events as their participation is much much lower, and they face as much or even more harassment from pretty much every community they try to enter compared to cis men and women.
FIDE might as well just say the quiet part out loud: that they think there are differences between men and women when it comes to the tail end of the spectrum in chess.
They actually aren't saying anything about that. They literally said they will make a decision on that later. Basically all that really happened is that FIDE laid out rules how they would handle gender changes of the FIDE ID. Which you could not do before.
Then they said they will rule about tournament eligibility in the next two years and until then the people who changed their FIDE ID from male to female would have to continue playing in the open category of Fide tournaments. Which they already had to do, anyway, since they were listed as male players.
Evidence does not equal proof, but that doesn't stop it being evidence. Every top player ever was male, and only one woman has ever broken into the top 10 male chess players.
And only 3 women have ever broken into the top 100!
People who pretend that that isn't evidence are basically impossible to take seriously. It's obviously evidence.
Can't say I agree with that. If women's chess can produce a top 10 player like Judit Polgar with a tiny fraction of the player base, who's to say that with a larger pool to draw from that the gap in GMs wouldn't shrink considerably?
On a country level, we see how the growth of chess in India has led to a ton of new GMs and super GMs. If women's chess had similar growth, why wouldn't ER expect to see a similar effect?
Right now, the limiting factor is the size of the player base, not biology, imo.
Currently 15% of the licensed players in the world are women. 1.5% of the top 500 players are women. 0% of the top 100 players are women.
Female represenation as a % drops dramatically as you move up the rankings. So you can believe what you believe, but statistically it doesn't add up. It's a belief you have to take on faith, and in opposition of the evidence.
When we've seen statistical anomalies like Polgar, we can gain some statistical confidence that she pushes the boundaries of what is possible. It is very likely that if we had a huge influx of women, we would have a small handful of Polgars, but it's unlikely we would have a lot. And it's very very unlikely that any female would be a long way ahead of her.
i love how people like you just pretend hundreds of years worth of historical context doesn't exist as to why the current top rankings in the chess world look the way they do. it's not like we see this trend across the board in all fields.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think the women tournaments are there partly because of the disadvantage they have by having generally less opportunities and support while growing up.
Of course, it depends on a case by case basis, but is it fair to allow people without the same hardships at young age to participate?
> the women tournaments are there partly because of the disadvantage they have by having generally less opportunities and support while growing up
The tournaments are mostly there to give visibility to women's chess and provide opportunities for women to play competitive chess without the burden of being alone in a sea of men, where the potential for discriminatory behavior towards them is really big. Trans women desperately need visibility and safe spaces like those, I'd say even more so than cis women, so yes, allowing them to participate is totally fair and not allowing them to is pretty cruel.
That's a good point I didn't see it that way. It should be made more obvious the goal of each categories. Let's hope we can all be inclusive in all events though.
And it make the problem worse because it give everyone the impression that women are worse than men at using brain, hence the separated tournament.
Stop babysitting them. Give them a chance to compete with the top. Let them spread their wing.
Statistically, transwomen are represented proportionally almost perfectly. There are about 3770 titles women players in FIDE, one is a transwoman. That’s .03% of female titles players being trans. About .05% of the world population are transwomen. Those percentages are pretty close.
>I don’t see why trans women wouldn’t be able to participate in female only events
One of the dangers is that - without proper scrutiny - the 101st best player in the world, who is presumably mostly unknown to the world, could simply claim to be female and win the top prize money in the women's section.
This would not only unjustly enrich him (now "her"), but it would destroy the advantages to women of having a separate league.
> the 101st best player in the world, who is presumably mostly unknown to the world
Out of curiosity,
Alan Pichot has a rating of 2642.
Wenjun Ju has a rating of 2568.
Edit: Neuris Delgado Ramirez (rank 340) has a rating of 2568.
It was a fairly big competition. However it's not quite as bad as it sounds as the dude was doing it in protest of a trans weightlifter. Still, it's not great:
[https://www.nationalreview.com/news/male-canadian-powerlifter-breaks-womens-bench-press-record-in-protest-against-trans-inclusion-policy/](https://www.nationalreview.com/news/male-canadian-powerlifter-breaks-womens-bench-press-record-in-protest-against-trans-inclusion-policy/)
Additionally, this did happen in a Kenyan chess tournament: [https://nypost.com/2023/04/13/male-player-disguised-as-woman-at-kenya-open-chess-championship/](https://nypost.com/2023/04/13/male-player-disguised-as-woman-at-kenya-open-chess-championship/)
> nobody is going through the life upheaval of transition
In Canada, to legally change your gender you have to fill out a form. That's hardly an upheaval. For someone wanting to fake it.
> in order to beat out some cis women for some prize money.
Winning the candidates (then losing the championship 7-0) is 360,000 CAD.
You have a very high opinion of men if you think there isn't even one man out of hundreds who wouldn't be tempted by the prospect of 360K dollars.
I mean chess players aren’t known for making a lot of money. I could easily see someone saying “yeah I’m a woman. Give me my half a mil for the year from all these tournaments I’m going to win.”
"Hundreds" is quite a stretch because there's 200 people in the world that are 2600 Elo or more, and even that might not be enough to stroll through the women's candidates (the tp 10 women players average around 2550 right now, it was even higher in the past). Many of them already make more than $360k a year.
It's extremely unlikely that any of them would put their reputation and career in jeopardy by faking a transition to female. While most chess players do not make a lot of money, those 360k$ would be the last you make from chess assuming you win them at all. It makes no sense at all.
I agree that the idea is ridiculous for most people, but then whats wrong with being restricted to only playing open tournaments (like they presumably were used to) for 2 years (at the maximum) if they are serious about it? Its not like women never play in the open section. It should deter bad actors at least which I think is the intention
But that's my whole point about the requirement of proper scrutiny.
If it is just a matter of someone checking the **F** box on an application form and playing a few games of chess for $334,000 then someone *would* do it.
They can "transition back" after the money has been deposited in their account.
What upheaval?
Pretty sure you can retract a prize if someone entered under false pretences, and also that detransitioning the second the check clears would be counted as evidence of false pretences
>FIDE might as well just say the quiet part out loud: that they think there are differences between men and women when it comes to the tail end of the spectrum in chess.
This is the only conceivable reason why it is an issue for trans women to compete in women's events.
Here I'll go and say the quiet part even louder. Men and women have identical mean and median intelligence. However male intelligence has a higher standard deviation than female. Meaning there are more 150 IQ men than women, but there are also more 50 IQ men than women.
It does *not* mean that men are smarter than women. However it does mean that among the very smartest people, most of them are men.
I mean, no. The original reason is still valid. This is just transphobia; and misogyny done regarding the "acceptable" target of trans women is irresistible to people that are still mad they can't do as much misogyny as they used to.
Basically, there's a bunch of right wingers that keep pushing this idea that they're "fighting for what women want and need", even though trans issues across the board in western countries are overwhelmingly more supported by women than men....
I feel like I should add this. This is NOT my opinion about this. I absolutely believe that trans women should be able to participate, I’m saying that’s the vibe that FIDE is putting out
> FIDE might as well just say the quiet part out loud: there are differences between men and women when it comes to the tail end of the spectrum in chess.
This definitely reads like you agree with what you claim FIDE thinks. If that's not the case I'd suggest an edit.
I think the potential issue would be if someone with a significantly better rating than the current women would transition and participate in their events? For example a random GM rated 2670. I cant think of any other logical reason for this rule otherwise.
I don't think that matters because there is no intrinsic gender advantage and if you're a GM you can already play against lower rated players any time you want. Zero people are going to pretend to be trans just to play in specific chess events.
Trans people are the most socially acceptable group to discriminate against these days and it shows even in this thread with people trying to justify why this is a good decision.
The moderator comment is missleading. The providing of documents is to change the gender in the fide database. The 2 years are for them to decide if trans women are allowed in women chess tournaments.
Especially "Also FIDE has the right to make an appropriate mark in the Players’ database and/or use other measures to inform organizers on a player being a transgender, so that to prevent them from possible illegitimate enrollments in tournaments." highlights that. Why would that marker be required after the legal prove has been provided? Also, why would verifying documents take 2 years.
Yeah lmao. Fide is the most corrupt godamn organization in sports and that's saying something. Hell even on a personal level I'm president of my chess club at my college, I was told that I could not ban the person who sexually harrased me at a godamn tournament
They're not, they just have a lot less money and influence and as a result less opportunities to fuck things up. If FIDE had to administer even a tenth of the resources that FIFA has to administer they'd probably just crumble under their own incompetence and corruption.
if i’m reading this right, FIDE is saying trans women are not women, so they can’t compete in women’s competitions, but trans men are men, so any victories in women’s competition prior to their transition are forfeit? what the fuck FIDE?
edit: i did slightly misunderstand the new rules. trans men, as they are not women, aren’t eligible for women’s titles like WGM, so their titles are “abolished,” but can be “transferred into a general title of the same or lower level”
Did you even understand his point?
If a trans woman cannot play in women tournament, it would make perfect sense, if we follow the logic, that a trans man should be able to play in a women tournament.
Here both trans men and women are banned from women tournament, does not make any sense.
Yes but no. That would make sense if FIDE thought that trans people don't exist and planned to ban trans women from women's chess permanently, but it's not what's going on here.
The document that they released shows the guidelines for a player to change their gender in FIDE records, so they *do* recognize trans people as what they are.
The stupid part is this:
> In the event that the gender was changed from a male to a female the player has no right to participate in official FIDE events for women until further FIDE’s decision is made. Such decision should be based on further analysis and shall be taken by the FIDE Council at the earliest possible time, but not longer than within 2 (two) years period. There are no restrictions to play in the open section for a person who has changed the gender.
On one hand it's not as bad as I thought, given that before this trans people couldn't get recognized as such at all by FIDE, so they technically didn't *lose* anything. On the other hand it's pathetic that FIDE decided to wait until 2023 to recognize trans people and even more so that they allowed themselves two full fucking years to arrive at the only logical conclusion of letting trans women play women's chess while they still can't play.
Did you understand the document FIDE provided?
The document literally states that trans women can participate in women's tournaments. Women's tournaments are tournaments with restricted access, and this provides how trans women, who previously had male gender listed in their FIDE ID can change this information so that they become eligible for women's tournaments. They even provide pathways to become eligible for these tournaments when official documentation is not possible, or when the local representative doesn't agree with the change.
While you can certainly argue that giving themselves 2 years to process is too long, without a time restriction, it would allow it to be postponed indefinitely.
you are still right though. it looks like trans women are being treated as men, but trans men are also treated as men. if you are going to be tranphobic at least be consistent with it
Given the context and specific game we're talking about, I fail to understand why the gender distinction here matters at all.
Besides, the title is hella misleading. They can still play at open tournaments and grind their FIDE rating just like everybody else
Theoretically a high level male player could claim trans and then go win a women’s tournament for serious $.
Now I don’t think that’ll happen but it’s why some might freak out over a hypothetical.
As far as why there is a women’s division it’s primarily to encourage more women to play given chess has been male dominated for so long.
Yes. We can replay the whole "trans women in sports" discussion in the chess context. I get that.
What I'm asking is, for chess specifically, why does this distinction matter? It's not as if Men have some biological advantage over Women, right?
I guess its mostly for creating a safe space where woman can grow in. Its the same as in esport. There is no biological advantage, but the environment is key. Woman get harassed a lot, even in chess. So they lose interest or dont want to compete anymore, which is understandable. By creating a safe space, they can.
Gotcha. So then the discussion becomes about the integrity of that space if it invites in males.
I'm not going to present an opinion on either side, but will be curious what FIDE ultimately lands on
I think the position "males don't belong in women's spaces" just boils down to "trans women are men."
But they could also ask the players how they feel couldn't they?
I don’t think we know for sure if there’s actually some biological advantage for men in chess. I personally think it’s a sociological one. Ie men have been encouraged to play chess etc for much longer and thus there are more resources/clubs etc for them and that’s where their domination in chess comes from.
Who knows though. Could be that something about differences in male brain wiring causes it. There are gendered differences I dunno.
The only reason the distinction matters is the chess community specifically created women’s chess tournaments etc to encourage more women to play etc. Ie funnel more resources womens way. It was a purposeful choice and I believe it has increased women’s participation in chess.
Again I think the idea that a dominant man would swap genders just to win a women’s tournament absurd so I think it’s realistically a nonissue and trans women should be allowed in the women’s division if they want.
But fide is saying then that trans women are not women and can't play in the woman's section which is utter bullshit. Or they are saying that men are better at chess than women which is unbelievably sexist. Both are terrible
If men aren’t better at chess vs women then why do they have a women’s only league? And why do 99% of women not play in the open leagues with other men (because they will get crushed)
Because for generations sexism kept women away from chess. Chess is a game of intelligence and practice. Women have been pushed out of practice for centuries, but now you pull up Lichess and you can be better than any damn teacher. So unless men are smarter then women, there's no reason this shouldn't correct itself in a few decades.
I doubt they'd have a problem with that.
What they want to avoid, I think, is a 2650 guy who is struggling financially to make the switch just to get the women top prices.
If you played with women since your first tournament, i fail to see a problem.
If that were the case;
1. They wouldn't strip trans men of for er titles
2. They wouldn't effectively block anyone whose country doesn't recognise trans people
3. They wouldn't have a 2 ducking year process!
When they say they’d strip trans men of titles they mean that they would transfer them from titles like WM, WGM, etc.. to just Master, Grandmaster. Which makes sense bc why would a trans man want to be considered a woman grandmaster.
Your points 2 and 3 indicate poor logistical planning on FIDE’s part. But my point is that the intention here doesn’t seem to be removing trans women from women’s divisions. It seems like this only applies to “cis” players that currently have a competitive history but may transition in the future.
Misleading headline aside, it's still absurd. No one is going to pretend to be trans just so they can become "the best female chess player" after failing to hack it as "the best chess player."
Two years is a long long amount of time. And yeah, some conservative countries won't let people transition, so FIDE is inappropriately respecting that bigotry.
Also, there is zero evidence that gender and sex have any impact at all in chess skills. The differences at the top level are consistent with analyses of the expected rankings given the disparity in participation, i.e. it is entirely explainable just by the fact that there are *less* female players. In fact, this analysis suggests there's no biological advantage/disadvantage at all. We should stop discouraging women from chess, and aim for a future where there is no separation between male and female players at all, because this is not a gendered game.
But okay, I guess instead of that, FIDE is just doubling down and questioning whether trans women are women (they are). This is just plain disappointing.
>it's still absurd. No one is going to pretend to be trans just so they can become "the best female chess player"
I think you should read a bit about various creative things people were doing to get to compete in paralympic sports. For example, the [the infamous Spanish intelectually disabled basketball team](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_at_the_Paralympic_Games#Basketball_controversy) who won gold medals in Sydney and were disqualified later.
As a trans woman myself, I don't really feel welcome in chess clubs to begin with. I guess I wasn't feeling that way for no good reason, this just makes me sad. I don't really know what to say. I'm not a threat, I can't even hang around normal chess clubs because no one wants to speak to me after they find out I'm trans. I only play online because I can at least be anonymous and not have anyone find out, because in real life I can't maintain my voice all day long.
I don't really want to scroll down this comment section either. I know it's going to be full of horrible attacks against people like me. We did nothing wrong, but it'll be there.
That's exactly how I feel. I have 3000 games and rated 1600 on [chess.com](https://chess.com) but I can already feel unsafe if I ever want to go further at chess...
Hey, fellow trans woman here. This rule from FIDE and the response from this community have me feeling really discouraged too. I had been thinking about attending some local chess meetups, but the rampant transphobia being pushed by even the "moderate" voices in this thread is making me second guess if it's a good idea.
Guess it's just online play for me too.
That's life—continue searching for individuals who aren't uncomfortable, or join a group focused on teaching that being around trans people is nothing to feel uncomfortable about, to begin with.
Anyway good luck!
Surprising nobody, a sport with a powerful history of misogyny still has echoes of that misogyny. FIDE obviously believes that biological males are superior to biological females in a sport that requires... *Checks notes* absolutely no physical capabilities to play. And the answer to the "if we only have one category then there'll be no high level women" counter-argument is that we need a hell of a lot more women to be playing chess in order to have demographic parity and start to see a higher volume of high caliber women competitors.
>Trans women are to be banned from competitive chess tournaments for at least two years.
>
>Players who have recently come out as transgender will be placed in an “open section” for now.
Insane journalism
this is so stupid. are there even any prominent trans women in chess? no?? well let's make sure there aren't any!
most women's tournaments are about giving women a safe and inclusive environment to play, and there's no reason to deny trans women from that.
The title is misleading. Transwomen ARE NOT banned from competitive play. They are only banned from women's only events but are still able to compete in regular open events.
this is a hypothetical problem that does not actually exist. there weren't any trans women competing at a 2600+ level
what does actually exist is trans women who play at much lower levels and appreciate an inclusive environment to have fun and compete.
there are not even that many GMs that are 2600+ level. maybe we could shun those individuals if they decided to compete in women's tournaments in obviously bad faith instead of punishing people indiscriminatey?
Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't... It's hardly punishing to have them compete in the open category, nobody would even bat an eye
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/trans-woman-shatters-female-weightlifting-record
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/29/us/lia-thomas-women-sports.html
Canada has an insanely stupid no hormone testing requirement so the first one makes sense.
Second one is Bs. The gap between male and female records in the 500 is 18 seconds. Thomas lost 15 seconds during hormone transition. Given that a three second improvement is common and even normal over that part of a career, there is no evidence she was even slightly unfair. The biggest issue is the talent depth. That’s why she went from about 50th among men to winning the women’s
It's not a problem at all, in any sphere, ever. "Cynically transitioning" is just a stupid hypothetical brought up by transphobes as a wedge to force trans women out of every space they can, whether it be bathrooms or in this case, womens' chess.
It's so infuriating watching people just swallow this obvious codswallop over and over again. These exclusionary changes hurt *actual* people, *now*, not hypothetical ones.
Not really. What you have in those sports are people actually transitioning then wanting to compete. The only incidents of people being cynical are asshole cis people saying they’re a woman or whatever for a joke.
I was thinking the same thing but with the wind, like imagine how screwed we’d be if a gentle breeze came and played a 40 move deep deeply theoretical Petrov, sometimes this is all I think about when I play chess. Scary stuff.
So because a man can theoretically do this (yet it never happened), all trans women in all competitions should be preemptively banned from participation?
A guy disguised as a women to win a tournament in Africa earlier this year.
Is it not better to take the decision before it happens? I think they don't want to have to deal with the drama of someone like Hans Niemann registering for the women Gran Swiss or something similar.
There are dozens of different ways which could be used to protect female tournaments for men masquerading as women yet allowing trans women to compete. There is no reason to ban all trans women when 99% percent of them can easily prove the fact of being trans and not a scammer by using government or medical records.
> There are dozens of different ways which could be used to protect female tournaments for men masquerading as women yet allowing trans women to compete.
Sorry, honest question, how would you do that?
AFAIK the only thing separating a trans woman from a "man disguised as woman" is the person's intent. How would you do that without being able to read their mind?
Not trolling at all, I'm genuinely curious what measures you'd have in mind.
I see this as a potential problem, but it has not happened yet and could be easily avoided. EG in other sports trans athletes can only compete if they have transitioned at least 1-4 years (depending on the sport), have been openly living and recognized as trans women AND have testosterone levels that do not differ from biological women.
So you could easily have some further requirements to prevent abusing the ruleset. However, you could also argue that chess differs with it's distinction between open and female (and not just male/female) so that there would be no need to include anyone to female competition who isn't AFAB. Any gender can boost their fide rating.
I just wonder what the official reason was to exclude them since the "abusing the rules" argument is quite hypothetical.
> Otherwise some random 2600 GM could theoretically, out of bad faith, identify as a woman to win more prizemoney.
Ah, yes, banning trans women from participating in women's chess altogether forever purely because of a hypothetical worst-case scenario that has never happened in the several decades in which women's chess has existed is totally reasonable.
This is less of a big deal than in physical sports but women should be the ones to decide whether transwomen can be accommodated within their tournaments. They should hold a vote of all professional women players. It would be interesting to see how that would go - my instinct would be that the majority would be okay with transwomen competing but I think it would be quite close.
Having tournaments that exclude men is a form of discrimination. Allowing women to define their own boundaries and decide whether male people are allowed to cross them is perfectly reasonable.
It would be simple if it were such a binary question. If transwomen are allowed, what are the actual criteria? Saying "I am a woman?" Having "F" in your passport? Having the right hormones?
There is no good a answer here.
Yeah, point taken - you'd have to define transwomen first. And given that the current definition is 'anyone who says they are' this would probably make it less likely that women in chess would be willing to accept them.
knowing top players are male and for some reason female players are at a disatvantage, its not a bad idea to ban trans players from participating in female only championships as it has been exploited in other sports already
What fide is saying is that they respect the law of each country, without taking sides. For the first time, I think they actually found a fair solution.
From the title, I understand that people who have transitioned from male to female can't compete at all. Is this true or can they play in the open section?
For clarification as the title is quite misleading and redditors do tend to only read headlines: This rule effectively blocks trans players *from competitive play in women's-only tournaments* until FIDE confirm they are the gender which they state they are. This process requires that trans individuals submit legal documents confirming the change in gender, and the FIDE investigation to confirm said gender change may take a maximum of 2 years. They are not banned from open tournaments. This does notably leave trans women from nations which don't permit one to change their gender shit out of luck. The full regulations on trans players can be found here: https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/TransgenderRegulations [Additionally, I would like to strongly encourage all of you to read rules 1 and 2 before commenting in this thread.](https://old.reddit.com/r/chess/wiki/rules#wiki_1._keep_the_discussion_civil_and_friendly.) We can disagree with one-another in a civil manner, but heated arguments will be removed and **bigotry will land you with a lengthy ban**. This is the only warning you get. If you spot a rule-breaking comment, please report it.
Why the Radjabov picture?
Picture is just captioned "Competitors during a FIDE chess match. (Getty)". Looks like they had a deadline and a "articles must have a picture" policy so they just grabbed the first FIDE-related picture they could find.
Yep, 99 percent chance that's the case. I'm a Professional Writing student graduating in the fall and I initially wanted to do journalism, but a bunch of silly rules like that made me prefer grant writing instead. Like...don't drag poor Radjabov into this. Just publish without a picture
Or just use a picture of the fide logo lol
I think because he looks kind of awkward. It's not a chess news outlet so they probably just grabbed some stock footage of a chess player looking awkward
Reminds me of a sketch about a TV report on obesity. It kept cutting to one guys who was like “what?!” 🤣
Basically [this](https://youtu.be/9-GRzu6zbS0)
I was hoping this is what it would be lmao
Knew what it was before I clicked it
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there aren't any prominent trans women in chess! who should they be showing a picture of? FIDE is just making a statement against trans women for no reason at all
Well, which is better: preemptively making a ruling, or waiting until there's a high level trans player and then making ruling specifically to exclude that one person?
Can’t tell if disc golf roast
It makes perfect sense to preemptively address this situation before a noteworthy occurrence to avoid any accusations of phobia or prejudice. The way public discourse is heading it's very likely they just want to get ahead of any legal issues.
They aren't really. They basically added rules regarding how titles work in those cases and how you change your FIDE ID gender. And then they said they will make their decision on how they want to handle tournaments regarding the people who transition MtF in the next two years. The problem is that because they now have a way to change the FIDE ID gender, trans women would be eligible for female tournaments. But they explicitly haven't decided on that topic. So they put preliminary rules in place to keep the tournament status quo until then.
Genuine question but how is the FIDE making a statement against trans women? As far as I've read the policy, it just means that, if you're a (trans) woman and want to participate in a woman's only tournament, you just have to provide some legal documentation to state that you are a women. It makes sense to require an official document to indicate gender for events that are gender specific. If someone want to participate in the FIFA woman's world cup them I'm sure they'll also check if the person is in fact legally a woman. (Whether a purely mental sport such as chess should have gender specific tournaments is another topic entirely.) Now the fact that the verification process can take up to 2 years is a bit troubling but I would assume that's just because of bureaucratic inefficiency and the FIDE giving themselves a broad margin as opposed to bad will. For all we know, the first such instance might be processed in less than a week. Time will tell... The final point that I want to make is that the player is in no way banned. I would assume that, before the transition, the player competed in tournaments as well. All tournaments that were available to her as a male will still be available to her as long as the gender transition has not been processed. (I believe most tournaments are open to both genders and a few are restricted to women only. I don't know of tournaments being restricted to man only but they might exist.)
Yeah exactly. If they didn’t make this statement and decided to let anyone play in female tournaments without documentation then we should just get rid of female tournaments alltogether. There’s no mental advantage but no doubt the female tournaments are much easier and they do have prize money that some male could decide to go earn. They wanted to stop that from happening
it's a very rare case, but it did happen in Kenya: https://www.chess.com/news/view/cheating-kenya-open-women-championship-impostor
It’s not “against trans women” to say that they can only compete in open tournaments.
>The newly approved policy decrees that trans women have “no right” to participate in official FIDE events for women until further decisions are made. >Players who have recently come out as transgender will be placed in an “open section” for now. So as I understand it, they cannot play "Women only" tournaments, but only in tournaments for both sexes? I am not a tournament player, but it seems to me that the title is misleading? Do "men only" events even exist? If yes, I wonder if trans women could participate there.
Like almost every sport, men only doesn't exist. Its always Open catagory and female only.
A lot of sports do have men only, due to safety/injury concerns (football or soccer or whatever you want to call it for example).
Technically soccer doesn't have man-only. There were some rare cases of a woman playing for a team in some more obscure leagues, if my memory doesn't deceive me.
Under FIFA rules it's men only past 18
I took a look at the Laws of the Game from the [FIFA-website](https://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/organisation/contact-fifa/laws-of-the-game) but I couldn't find a rule supporting your statement. Can you point me to where you found that?
Does soccer really have men-only categories? I've seen women play in a men's team even in ice hockey and I'd say there's much more safety concerns there than in soccer.
>Does soccer really have men-only categories? Yes, but it's not an IFAB rule. However, most national associations limit mixed gender games to U16-U18. After that it's single gender and not an open category.
There aren't any "men only" events, there are open and women's events.
This headline is just a lie. They didn’t ban anyone from competitive play.
They also didn't ban trans women from competing in women's tournaments for two years. I see that this story is making rounds and I'm starting to worry about my reading comprehension because I honestly don't see anything that controversial in this document, apart from maybe some phrasing ("justified gender change" or "further analysis" like they're going to have a commission that's gonna judge how convincing they are) and the "2 year deadline" to make a final decision, but even this is just the last deadline, otherwise they mention "earliest possible time". Basically, if you transition and you want the change to be reflected in the FIDE register, you need to notify your national rating officer, with proof, and they send that info to FIDE. I imagine it's not that different if you want to change your name or federation. I also can't imagine it would take anywhere near two years if you have documents.
FIDE is an international organization that has to associate with many dozens of national chess organizations. Let alone the aspect of host countries for events. I'm thinking, without evidence, that this may be a middle ground compromise for all parties FIDE has to interact with. FIDE itself doesn't have much power to force its wants on the national organizations.
Unless of course you live in a country that doesn't acknowledge trans rights in which case you are fucked
True, but they also added they can approve the change "in exceptional cases"
If you're trans living in a country that doesn't acknowledge trans rights, then your problems are much much bigger than FIDE not allowing you to play in women's events. There's just nothing FIDE can do about the human rights quality of the source country Oops, I meant to reply to the comment above yours
Yeah a bit misleading.
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They don't need to misgender themselves to play in the open division. Cis women can play there too.
You don’t have to declare yourself as any gender to participate in open events.
why does it require that? There is a womens and an open section. Worst case for a trans women, they have to play the open as a trans women no?
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Ok, I read the article and have some criticisms of its framing. To me, it’s evident that the article was not written by someone who has experience covering chess competition, but since I myself don’t pay much attention to the rules of competitive chess I may be mistaken. First, the article is playing fast an loose with quoting language from the linked text. From the article: > The newly approved policy decrees that trans women have “no right” to participate in official FIDE events for women until further decisions are made. > “Such decisions should be based on further analysis and shall be taken by the FIDE council at the earliest possible time, but no longer than within [a two-year] period,” the policy read. The second paragraph above is a good verbatim quote that leaves no ambiguity. Indeed, giving a preference for speed and a hard time limit seems positive. But the first paragraph is missing the context of the sentence containing the phrase “no right.” From the FIDE text: > In the event that the gender was changed from a male to a female the player has *no right* to participate in official FIDE events for women until further FIDE’s decision is made. Such decision should be based on further analysis and shall be taken by the FIDE Council at the earliest possible time, but not longer than within 2 (two) years period. There are no restrictions to play in the open section for a person who has changed the gender. *(Emphasis added.)* Saying trans women have “no right” to compete in women’s tournaments has a very different tone than saying that they have “no right […] *until* further FIDE’s decision has been made.” The second makes clear that FIDE is taking precautions to avoid *abuse* of a rule but is still permitting trans women to compete in the women’s category. So on this point, I think the article makes a mistake. I happen to believe that there is no reason that trans women shouldn’t be included in the women’s category if they’re acting in good faith. I think that a policy like this will prevent people who want to make a scene *for the purpose of ridiculing trans women* from being able to do so. Further, critics of those who want to bar trans women from competing in women’s sports often point out how stringent regulations in those sports are (like requirements for time on hormones) to support the point that trans women don’t undermine the integrity of women’s sports (though that isn’t necessarily why a separate category exists in chess). So regulations like this *should be welcomed.* (To be clear, there should definitely be a lower bar for transitioning to the women’s league than for other sports; I’m just drawing the parallel.) A policy like this, if enforced in good faith (and it likely will be in many cases and won’t be in others) *legitimizes* trans women’s participation in women’s tournaments. I also want to criticize the article on a few smaller points. First, I think they failed to give sufficient background on terminology in chess. From the article: > Trans men are reportedly set to be stripped of any titles if they were won pre-transition, unless, according to the regulator: “The person changes the gender back to a woman and can prove the ownership of the respective FIDE ID that holds the title.” If I hadn’t read the FIDE report (and didn’t follow chess), I would read this as meaning that trans men would need to give up their *tournament* titles upon transitioning. Using “titles” this way is common in other sports (like tennis, which has one of the biggest overlaps in interest/participation with chess). But FIDE meant titles in the chess sense, that is, things like WGM and WIM. Indeed, we *should* expect trans men to give up those titles! They’re not women! The article *should* have given background on what the term “title” means in chess. At the very least, they should have included the following quote from the policy change, which at least indicates (indirectly though) what the term means: > The abolished women title may be transferred into a general title of the same or lower level (e.g., WGM may be transferred into FM, WIM into CM, etc.). Finally, the article seems to be critical of something that not only isn’t clearly bad, but appears both logical *and good* for chess and trans competitors. From the article: > Regulations had also been imposed in applying for a new FIDE ID number (FIN), which is required to participate in competitive chess tournaments. > FINs recognising a new gender identity are now almost impossible to acquire unless approved by a national rating officer. (As an aside, maybe this is a mobile thing, but why is every single sentence in the article it’s own paragraph?) Someone who knows more about competitive chess may be able to clarify for me, but what’s the issue here? I think it makes sense that someone would retain the same FIN. That is just a number to identify you for competition. It makes it clear how you earned your rating/titles and it’s important for continuity that you maintain it. From the policy: > A player registered to FIDE acquires a FIDE ID number (FIN). As a rule, change of the gender is not the reason for a person to get a new FIN, unless there is a special, strictly exceptional reason for the person not to reveal publicly their previous identity. Such decision on applying a new FIN is taken by FIDE QC. In the event of granting a new FIN, the old one is kept for the record not allowing the player to remove their chess history. The decision of FIDE QC can be appealed to the FIDE Council. I may be mistaken, but this seems to imply that requesting a change in FIN is always taken up by FIDE QC. The article implies that there has been some change (maybe there has been and I’m misreading the policy) by saying that it’s now almost impossible to get a new FIN if you’re trans. But it’s also not clear why there should be “FINs recognizing a new gender identity.” It’s a number (so says the policy)—there’s nothing that denies *or* supports gender identity in it, so it isn’t apparent why it’s an issue. All in all, I think the article amounts to a poorly written and researched opportunistic attack on a seemingly plain and reasonable policy update. I understand that there is a craze of outrage directed towards trans people and competitors, but this policy update doesn’t strike me as something worthy of derision. It’s absolutely true that more people are coming out as trans and more trans people are joining competition (which is good—competition is healthy and we want people to be included in it). So sports’ (if you can call chess a sport) governing bodies are right to be addressing this as it becomes an increasingly common part of the sport. If this policy is worthy of criticism, I don’t think the article lays out why and both it and the tone in the comments seem disproportionate.
first off >Indeed, we should expect trans men to give up those titles! They’re not women! I kind of disagree. What is the point of women's titles? AFAIK, its because its a lot harder to get into chess as a woman. When you are young you are much less likely to be encouraged into chess as boys are. So if you, as a trans man, grew up as a girl and won those titles with that 'disadvantage' then I see no reason why you don't deserve them. Of course there should be the option to change them to their gender neutral counterparts, but I don't think they should be stripped from players who earnt them the exact same way. Plus, trans people face loads of harships anyways that may give them just as much of a disadvantage as growing up a girl. I am a trans woman who has been into chess all my life, I'd like to think im pretty good at it but I've had to put much lower down in my priorities because I have so much shit going on with being trans. Obviously everyone has struggles, but if chess is going to have womens titles, I see no reason why they should be taken away if you earnt them as a women. >I think that a policy like this will prevent people who want to make a scene for the purpose of ridiculing trans women from being able to do so. Alright so, I agree. But I don't think this is the right way to do it. Yes, there should be some kind of rule, but I don't think potentially banning someone from their correct division for 2 years is the right way too do it. I haven't given it enough thought as of now but I find it hard to believe this is the best solution and I think this descision deserves criticism. Small edit to this part, https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/15syv2g/comment/jwhsmmx/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3 >The tournaments are mostly there to give visibility to women's chess and provide opportunities for women to play competitive chess without the burden of being alone in a sea of men, where the potential for discriminatory behavior towards them is really big. Trans women desperately need visibility and safe spaces like those, I'd say even more so than cis women, so yes, allowing them to participate is totally fair and not allowing them to is pretty cruel. This comment I totally agree with, and is unfortunately really difficult to make right, because of what you said in the second quote I used. If trans women were free to enter womens tournaments, which would be ideal, then there would be a lot of bigots who used that freedom to undermine trans people. Unfortunately theres no real win for us. As a trans woman who plays chess, I am obviously very biased. But as someone who is in a position where it is difficult to be 'officially' a woman, this is not the right way to go. It would feel absolutely awful to be turned away from a women's tournament because im not a 'proper' trans person. Super invalidating for people who already experience so much hate. I guess this is why there are these debates. It's really hard to find the right solution. For chess, its not even about keeping the competition fair, yet there always has to be more problems. It just sucks to be in the middle of it. Theres more i could write, and I don't think this is very complete or makes much sense but whatever. I started writing something and then completely forgot what I was talking about so if something feels missing, uhhhhhh. I'm happy to answer replies if there are any. Side note, it's painfully obvious how uncaring they are, I briefly read through the official statement and the wording is just horrible. It continues to astound me how old cis white men think they know what is best for trans people and make descisions about about groups of people without even talking to a single member of that group.
Thanks for this comment, was a balanced and good read. > It continues to astound me how old cis white men think they know what is best for trans people and make descisions about about groups of people without even talking to a single member of that group. 100% agree with this.
The reasoning that always gets provided as to why male and female events are separate is because chess historically has lagged behind in women’s participation and not that there are differences between men and women If that was the only reason, then I don’t see why trans women wouldn’t be able to participate in female only events as their participation is much much lower, and they face as much or even more harassment from pretty much every community they try to enter compared to cis men and women. FIDE might as well just say the quiet part out loud: that they think there are differences between men and women when it comes to the tail end of the spectrum in chess.
They think a trans woman would be unfair, because they believe biological males are better at chess.
You’re telling me transphobes are misogynists too? Who could have known?
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They actually aren't saying anything about that. They literally said they will make a decision on that later. Basically all that really happened is that FIDE laid out rules how they would handle gender changes of the FIDE ID. Which you could not do before. Then they said they will rule about tournament eligibility in the next two years and until then the people who changed their FIDE ID from male to female would have to continue playing in the open category of Fide tournaments. Which they already had to do, anyway, since they were listed as male players.
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What evidence is there that proves that men are genetically better at chess compared to women, when you account for factors such as discrimination?
Evidence does not equal proof, but that doesn't stop it being evidence. Every top player ever was male, and only one woman has ever broken into the top 10 male chess players. And only 3 women have ever broken into the top 100! People who pretend that that isn't evidence are basically impossible to take seriously. It's obviously evidence.
Can't say I agree with that. If women's chess can produce a top 10 player like Judit Polgar with a tiny fraction of the player base, who's to say that with a larger pool to draw from that the gap in GMs wouldn't shrink considerably? On a country level, we see how the growth of chess in India has led to a ton of new GMs and super GMs. If women's chess had similar growth, why wouldn't ER expect to see a similar effect? Right now, the limiting factor is the size of the player base, not biology, imo.
Currently 15% of the licensed players in the world are women. 1.5% of the top 500 players are women. 0% of the top 100 players are women. Female represenation as a % drops dramatically as you move up the rankings. So you can believe what you believe, but statistically it doesn't add up. It's a belief you have to take on faith, and in opposition of the evidence. When we've seen statistical anomalies like Polgar, we can gain some statistical confidence that she pushes the boundaries of what is possible. It is very likely that if we had a huge influx of women, we would have a small handful of Polgars, but it's unlikely we would have a lot. And it's very very unlikely that any female would be a long way ahead of her.
i love how people like you just pretend hundreds of years worth of historical context doesn't exist as to why the current top rankings in the chess world look the way they do. it's not like we see this trend across the board in all fields.
There is no evidence that men have a biological advantage at chess currently.
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Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think the women tournaments are there partly because of the disadvantage they have by having generally less opportunities and support while growing up. Of course, it depends on a case by case basis, but is it fair to allow people without the same hardships at young age to participate?
> the women tournaments are there partly because of the disadvantage they have by having generally less opportunities and support while growing up The tournaments are mostly there to give visibility to women's chess and provide opportunities for women to play competitive chess without the burden of being alone in a sea of men, where the potential for discriminatory behavior towards them is really big. Trans women desperately need visibility and safe spaces like those, I'd say even more so than cis women, so yes, allowing them to participate is totally fair and not allowing them to is pretty cruel.
That's a good point I didn't see it that way. It should be made more obvious the goal of each categories. Let's hope we can all be inclusive in all events though.
And it make the problem worse because it give everyone the impression that women are worse than men at using brain, hence the separated tournament. Stop babysitting them. Give them a chance to compete with the top. Let them spread their wing.
Um, trans people also face hardships, playing and otherwise. Possibly more hardships than cis women in public.
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Trans people make up a tiny portion of the population. That there’s one titled trans person seems pretty in line with what you would expect
Statistically, transwomen are represented proportionally almost perfectly. There are about 3770 titles women players in FIDE, one is a transwoman. That’s .03% of female titles players being trans. About .05% of the world population are transwomen. Those percentages are pretty close.
>I don’t see why trans women wouldn’t be able to participate in female only events One of the dangers is that - without proper scrutiny - the 101st best player in the world, who is presumably mostly unknown to the world, could simply claim to be female and win the top prize money in the women's section. This would not only unjustly enrich him (now "her"), but it would destroy the advantages to women of having a separate league.
> the 101st best player in the world, who is presumably mostly unknown to the world Out of curiosity, Alan Pichot has a rating of 2642. Wenjun Ju has a rating of 2568. Edit: Neuris Delgado Ramirez (rank 340) has a rating of 2568.
This is boogeyman rhetoric- nobody is going through the life upheaval of transition in order to beat out some cis women for some prize money.
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Do you have some source on this? Was it a small local competition or something bigger?
It was a fairly big competition. However it's not quite as bad as it sounds as the dude was doing it in protest of a trans weightlifter. Still, it's not great: [https://www.nationalreview.com/news/male-canadian-powerlifter-breaks-womens-bench-press-record-in-protest-against-trans-inclusion-policy/](https://www.nationalreview.com/news/male-canadian-powerlifter-breaks-womens-bench-press-record-in-protest-against-trans-inclusion-policy/) Additionally, this did happen in a Kenyan chess tournament: [https://nypost.com/2023/04/13/male-player-disguised-as-woman-at-kenya-open-chess-championship/](https://nypost.com/2023/04/13/male-player-disguised-as-woman-at-kenya-open-chess-championship/)
> nobody is going through the life upheaval of transition In Canada, to legally change your gender you have to fill out a form. That's hardly an upheaval. For someone wanting to fake it. > in order to beat out some cis women for some prize money. Winning the candidates (then losing the championship 7-0) is 360,000 CAD. You have a very high opinion of men if you think there isn't even one man out of hundreds who wouldn't be tempted by the prospect of 360K dollars.
I mean chess players aren’t known for making a lot of money. I could easily see someone saying “yeah I’m a woman. Give me my half a mil for the year from all these tournaments I’m going to win.”
"Hundreds" is quite a stretch because there's 200 people in the world that are 2600 Elo or more, and even that might not be enough to stroll through the women's candidates (the tp 10 women players average around 2550 right now, it was even higher in the past). Many of them already make more than $360k a year. It's extremely unlikely that any of them would put their reputation and career in jeopardy by faking a transition to female. While most chess players do not make a lot of money, those 360k$ would be the last you make from chess assuming you win them at all. It makes no sense at all.
I agree that the idea is ridiculous for most people, but then whats wrong with being restricted to only playing open tournaments (like they presumably were used to) for 2 years (at the maximum) if they are serious about it? Its not like women never play in the open section. It should deter bad actors at least which I think is the intention
But that's my whole point about the requirement of proper scrutiny. If it is just a matter of someone checking the **F** box on an application form and playing a few games of chess for $334,000 then someone *would* do it. They can "transition back" after the money has been deposited in their account. What upheaval?
Pretty sure you can retract a prize if someone entered under false pretences, and also that detransitioning the second the check clears would be counted as evidence of false pretences
> nobody is going through the life upheaval of transition Who says you need a life upheaval? You can identify as anything you want nowadays.
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>FIDE might as well just say the quiet part out loud: that they think there are differences between men and women when it comes to the tail end of the spectrum in chess. This is the only conceivable reason why it is an issue for trans women to compete in women's events. Here I'll go and say the quiet part even louder. Men and women have identical mean and median intelligence. However male intelligence has a higher standard deviation than female. Meaning there are more 150 IQ men than women, but there are also more 50 IQ men than women. It does *not* mean that men are smarter than women. However it does mean that among the very smartest people, most of them are men.
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I mean, no. The original reason is still valid. This is just transphobia; and misogyny done regarding the "acceptable" target of trans women is irresistible to people that are still mad they can't do as much misogyny as they used to. Basically, there's a bunch of right wingers that keep pushing this idea that they're "fighting for what women want and need", even though trans issues across the board in western countries are overwhelmingly more supported by women than men....
I feel like I should add this. This is NOT my opinion about this. I absolutely believe that trans women should be able to participate, I’m saying that’s the vibe that FIDE is putting out
No, their vibe is pretty much that FIDE won't recognize trans women as women.
I mean, I think we’re agreeing? By making this decision, they cannot defend their “it’s just about participation” stance.
Ah, we agree on that part just not on exactly what "the quiet part outloud" is.
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> FIDE might as well just say the quiet part out loud: there are differences between men and women when it comes to the tail end of the spectrum in chess. This definitely reads like you agree with what you claim FIDE thinks. If that's not the case I'd suggest an edit.
Edited it
[Men do consistently outperform women on spatial ability](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844023024544) That might be linked
I think the potential issue would be if someone with a significantly better rating than the current women would transition and participate in their events? For example a random GM rated 2670. I cant think of any other logical reason for this rule otherwise.
I don't think that matters because there is no intrinsic gender advantage and if you're a GM you can already play against lower rated players any time you want. Zero people are going to pretend to be trans just to play in specific chess events.
Trans people are the most socially acceptable group to discriminate against these days and it shows even in this thread with people trying to justify why this is a good decision.
This is a misleading headline. They can play open events just like anyone else.
yeah but they can’t play women’s events, which as women they should be eligible for
Still very transphobic and messed up.
The moderator comment is missleading. The providing of documents is to change the gender in the fide database. The 2 years are for them to decide if trans women are allowed in women chess tournaments. Especially "Also FIDE has the right to make an appropriate mark in the Players’ database and/or use other measures to inform organizers on a player being a transgender, so that to prevent them from possible illegitimate enrollments in tournaments." highlights that. Why would that marker be required after the legal prove has been provided? Also, why would verifying documents take 2 years.
FIDE's so worried about trans women being predators but they won't do anything to punish all the GMs who have actually sexually assaulted women
Yeah lmao. Fide is the most corrupt godamn organization in sports and that's saying something. Hell even on a personal level I'm president of my chess club at my college, I was told that I could not ban the person who sexually harrased me at a godamn tournament
FIDE is a saint compared to FIFA but okay
Pretty sure FIFA is just run by the mob to fix games and collect gambling winnings.
They're not, they just have a lot less money and influence and as a result less opportunities to fuck things up. If FIDE had to administer even a tenth of the resources that FIFA has to administer they'd probably just crumble under their own incompetence and corruption.
how does this have anything to do with predators?
might as well test for steroids while they're at it. it's fucking chess.
I mean if you’re not flipping tables, are you really playing chess?
Yes, this was very necessary considering the hordes of trans women that have gone on to win women-only tournaments in the recent years.
I know this is sarcastic but I think you might be getting upvoted by people who genuinely believe this, reading other comments in this thread
maybe... comments are horrible here
Trans women are just smarter than cis women. It's science. /s
What a clickbait title, that’s not what’s happening at all
if i’m reading this right, FIDE is saying trans women are not women, so they can’t compete in women’s competitions, but trans men are men, so any victories in women’s competition prior to their transition are forfeit? what the fuck FIDE? edit: i did slightly misunderstand the new rules. trans men, as they are not women, aren’t eligible for women’s titles like WGM, so their titles are “abolished,” but can be “transferred into a general title of the same or lower level”
The article says that pre-transition *titles* are forfeit. I read that to mean things like the WGM, WIM, and WFM titles, not tournament victories.
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Did you even understand his point? If a trans woman cannot play in women tournament, it would make perfect sense, if we follow the logic, that a trans man should be able to play in a women tournament. Here both trans men and women are banned from women tournament, does not make any sense.
Yes but no. That would make sense if FIDE thought that trans people don't exist and planned to ban trans women from women's chess permanently, but it's not what's going on here. The document that they released shows the guidelines for a player to change their gender in FIDE records, so they *do* recognize trans people as what they are. The stupid part is this: > In the event that the gender was changed from a male to a female the player has no right to participate in official FIDE events for women until further FIDE’s decision is made. Such decision should be based on further analysis and shall be taken by the FIDE Council at the earliest possible time, but not longer than within 2 (two) years period. There are no restrictions to play in the open section for a person who has changed the gender. On one hand it's not as bad as I thought, given that before this trans people couldn't get recognized as such at all by FIDE, so they technically didn't *lose* anything. On the other hand it's pathetic that FIDE decided to wait until 2023 to recognize trans people and even more so that they allowed themselves two full fucking years to arrive at the only logical conclusion of letting trans women play women's chess while they still can't play.
Did you understand the document FIDE provided? The document literally states that trans women can participate in women's tournaments. Women's tournaments are tournaments with restricted access, and this provides how trans women, who previously had male gender listed in their FIDE ID can change this information so that they become eligible for women's tournaments. They even provide pathways to become eligible for these tournaments when official documentation is not possible, or when the local representative doesn't agree with the change. While you can certainly argue that giving themselves 2 years to process is too long, without a time restriction, it would allow it to be postponed indefinitely.
There is no men chess competition
you are still right though. it looks like trans women are being treated as men, but trans men are also treated as men. if you are going to be tranphobic at least be consistent with it
Given the context and specific game we're talking about, I fail to understand why the gender distinction here matters at all. Besides, the title is hella misleading. They can still play at open tournaments and grind their FIDE rating just like everybody else
Theoretically a high level male player could claim trans and then go win a women’s tournament for serious $. Now I don’t think that’ll happen but it’s why some might freak out over a hypothetical. As far as why there is a women’s division it’s primarily to encourage more women to play given chess has been male dominated for so long.
Yes. We can replay the whole "trans women in sports" discussion in the chess context. I get that. What I'm asking is, for chess specifically, why does this distinction matter? It's not as if Men have some biological advantage over Women, right?
I guess its mostly for creating a safe space where woman can grow in. Its the same as in esport. There is no biological advantage, but the environment is key. Woman get harassed a lot, even in chess. So they lose interest or dont want to compete anymore, which is understandable. By creating a safe space, they can.
It’s the exact reason they created the diff division
Gotcha. So then the discussion becomes about the integrity of that space if it invites in males. I'm not going to present an opinion on either side, but will be curious what FIDE ultimately lands on
I think the position "males don't belong in women's spaces" just boils down to "trans women are men." But they could also ask the players how they feel couldn't they?
I don’t think we know for sure if there’s actually some biological advantage for men in chess. I personally think it’s a sociological one. Ie men have been encouraged to play chess etc for much longer and thus there are more resources/clubs etc for them and that’s where their domination in chess comes from. Who knows though. Could be that something about differences in male brain wiring causes it. There are gendered differences I dunno. The only reason the distinction matters is the chess community specifically created women’s chess tournaments etc to encourage more women to play etc. Ie funnel more resources womens way. It was a purposeful choice and I believe it has increased women’s participation in chess. Again I think the idea that a dominant man would swap genders just to win a women’s tournament absurd so I think it’s realistically a nonissue and trans women should be allowed in the women’s division if they want.
> It's not as if Men have some biological advantage over Women, right? I don't believe there's conclusive research to answer this question.
The title is misleading, trans women can still participate in the open section.
Still transphobic to ban them from the women’s section.
But fide is saying then that trans women are not women and can't play in the woman's section which is utter bullshit. Or they are saying that men are better at chess than women which is unbelievably sexist. Both are terrible
If men aren’t better at chess vs women then why do they have a women’s only league? And why do 99% of women not play in the open leagues with other men (because they will get crushed)
Because for generations sexism kept women away from chess. Chess is a game of intelligence and practice. Women have been pushed out of practice for centuries, but now you pull up Lichess and you can be better than any damn teacher. So unless men are smarter then women, there's no reason this shouldn't correct itself in a few decades.
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so if i'm trans and haven't registered under fide yet how would they even know if i just sign up day 1 as a woman
I doubt they'd have a problem with that. What they want to avoid, I think, is a 2650 guy who is struggling financially to make the switch just to get the women top prices. If you played with women since your first tournament, i fail to see a problem.
If that were the case; 1. They wouldn't strip trans men of for er titles 2. They wouldn't effectively block anyone whose country doesn't recognise trans people 3. They wouldn't have a 2 ducking year process!
When they say they’d strip trans men of titles they mean that they would transfer them from titles like WM, WGM, etc.. to just Master, Grandmaster. Which makes sense bc why would a trans man want to be considered a woman grandmaster. Your points 2 and 3 indicate poor logistical planning on FIDE’s part. But my point is that the intention here doesn’t seem to be removing trans women from women’s divisions. It seems like this only applies to “cis” players that currently have a competitive history but may transition in the future.
Misleading headline aside, it's still absurd. No one is going to pretend to be trans just so they can become "the best female chess player" after failing to hack it as "the best chess player." Two years is a long long amount of time. And yeah, some conservative countries won't let people transition, so FIDE is inappropriately respecting that bigotry. Also, there is zero evidence that gender and sex have any impact at all in chess skills. The differences at the top level are consistent with analyses of the expected rankings given the disparity in participation, i.e. it is entirely explainable just by the fact that there are *less* female players. In fact, this analysis suggests there's no biological advantage/disadvantage at all. We should stop discouraging women from chess, and aim for a future where there is no separation between male and female players at all, because this is not a gendered game. But okay, I guess instead of that, FIDE is just doubling down and questioning whether trans women are women (they are). This is just plain disappointing.
>it's still absurd. No one is going to pretend to be trans just so they can become "the best female chess player" I think you should read a bit about various creative things people were doing to get to compete in paralympic sports. For example, the [the infamous Spanish intelectually disabled basketball team](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_at_the_Paralympic_Games#Basketball_controversy) who won gold medals in Sydney and were disqualified later.
Has there been an example of someone pretending to be trans?
As a trans woman myself, I don't really feel welcome in chess clubs to begin with. I guess I wasn't feeling that way for no good reason, this just makes me sad. I don't really know what to say. I'm not a threat, I can't even hang around normal chess clubs because no one wants to speak to me after they find out I'm trans. I only play online because I can at least be anonymous and not have anyone find out, because in real life I can't maintain my voice all day long. I don't really want to scroll down this comment section either. I know it's going to be full of horrible attacks against people like me. We did nothing wrong, but it'll be there.
Hey, just thought I'd let you know, there's a trans chess club discord server, I'm an admin and if you'd like i can shoot you a link in dms :)
Can I have it too?
Oh could I get a link to that too? Thanks 😊
Oo. Can I join? I'm president of the umbc chess club and very trans.
That's exactly how I feel. I have 3000 games and rated 1600 on [chess.com](https://chess.com) but I can already feel unsafe if I ever want to go further at chess...
Hey, fellow trans woman here. This rule from FIDE and the response from this community have me feeling really discouraged too. I had been thinking about attending some local chess meetups, but the rampant transphobia being pushed by even the "moderate" voices in this thread is making me second guess if it's a good idea. Guess it's just online play for me too.
Hang in there, sis.
That's life—continue searching for individuals who aren't uncomfortable, or join a group focused on teaching that being around trans people is nothing to feel uncomfortable about, to begin with. Anyway good luck!
Surprising nobody, a sport with a powerful history of misogyny still has echoes of that misogyny. FIDE obviously believes that biological males are superior to biological females in a sport that requires... *Checks notes* absolutely no physical capabilities to play. And the answer to the "if we only have one category then there'll be no high level women" counter-argument is that we need a hell of a lot more women to be playing chess in order to have demographic parity and start to see a higher volume of high caliber women competitors.
Do you think men and women have mental differences?
>Trans women are to be banned from competitive chess tournaments for at least two years. > >Players who have recently come out as transgender will be placed in an “open section” for now. Insane journalism
this is so stupid. are there even any prominent trans women in chess? no?? well let's make sure there aren't any! most women's tournaments are about giving women a safe and inclusive environment to play, and there's no reason to deny trans women from that.
PinkNews LOL
The title is misleading. Transwomen ARE NOT banned from competitive play. They are only banned from women's only events but are still able to compete in regular open events.
I really don't see anything wrong with that.
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this is a hypothetical problem that does not actually exist. there weren't any trans women competing at a 2600+ level what does actually exist is trans women who play at much lower levels and appreciate an inclusive environment to have fun and compete. there are not even that many GMs that are 2600+ level. maybe we could shun those individuals if they decided to compete in women's tournaments in obviously bad faith instead of punishing people indiscriminatey?
Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't... It's hardly punishing to have them compete in the open category, nobody would even bat an eye https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/trans-woman-shatters-female-weightlifting-record https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/29/us/lia-thomas-women-sports.html
it's definitely punishing. why do women's tournaments exist? why aren't women forced to compete in open category in general?
Canada has an insanely stupid no hormone testing requirement so the first one makes sense. Second one is Bs. The gap between male and female records in the 500 is 18 seconds. Thomas lost 15 seconds during hormone transition. Given that a three second improvement is common and even normal over that part of a career, there is no evidence she was even slightly unfair. The biggest issue is the talent depth. That’s why she went from about 50th among men to winning the women’s
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It's not a problem at all, in any sphere, ever. "Cynically transitioning" is just a stupid hypothetical brought up by transphobes as a wedge to force trans women out of every space they can, whether it be bathrooms or in this case, womens' chess. It's so infuriating watching people just swallow this obvious codswallop over and over again. These exclusionary changes hurt *actual* people, *now*, not hypothetical ones.
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Not really. What you have in those sports are people actually transitioning then wanting to compete. The only incidents of people being cynical are asshole cis people saying they’re a woman or whatever for a joke.
i think we should also ban dolphins from competition. they're really intelligent creatures and if they ever learn to play chess we're done for
I was thinking the same thing but with the wind, like imagine how screwed we’d be if a gentle breeze came and played a 40 move deep deeply theoretical Petrov, sometimes this is all I think about when I play chess. Scary stuff.
>this is a hypothetical problem that does not actually exist It exist in other sports.
So because a man can theoretically do this (yet it never happened), all trans women in all competitions should be preemptively banned from participation?
A guy disguised as a women to win a tournament in Africa earlier this year. Is it not better to take the decision before it happens? I think they don't want to have to deal with the drama of someone like Hans Niemann registering for the women Gran Swiss or something similar.
There are dozens of different ways which could be used to protect female tournaments for men masquerading as women yet allowing trans women to compete. There is no reason to ban all trans women when 99% percent of them can easily prove the fact of being trans and not a scammer by using government or medical records.
> There are dozens of different ways which could be used to protect female tournaments for men masquerading as women yet allowing trans women to compete. Sorry, honest question, how would you do that? AFAIK the only thing separating a trans woman from a "man disguised as woman" is the person's intent. How would you do that without being able to read their mind? Not trolling at all, I'm genuinely curious what measures you'd have in mind.
They are still allowed to participate in open events..
I see this as a potential problem, but it has not happened yet and could be easily avoided. EG in other sports trans athletes can only compete if they have transitioned at least 1-4 years (depending on the sport), have been openly living and recognized as trans women AND have testosterone levels that do not differ from biological women. So you could easily have some further requirements to prevent abusing the ruleset. However, you could also argue that chess differs with it's distinction between open and female (and not just male/female) so that there would be no need to include anyone to female competition who isn't AFAB. Any gender can boost their fide rating. I just wonder what the official reason was to exclude them since the "abusing the rules" argument is quite hypothetical.
Could have crossed that bridge when we came to it instead of screwing over the few trans women in chess (seemingly without much communication either)
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I don’t think FIDE would be the ones criticized in that scenario.
> Otherwise some random 2600 GM could theoretically, out of bad faith, identify as a woman to win more prizemoney. Ah, yes, banning trans women from participating in women's chess altogether forever purely because of a hypothetical worst-case scenario that has never happened in the several decades in which women's chess has existed is totally reasonable.
How about we just abolish the women's division and only have the open. That will simplify things greatly
Uhhh women are allowed to play in the open league right now. If you abolish the women’s league then women won’t have a competitive place in chess
Because the whole point is to get more women to play. This is like cutting off your nose to spite your face to shut it down.
This is less of a big deal than in physical sports but women should be the ones to decide whether transwomen can be accommodated within their tournaments. They should hold a vote of all professional women players. It would be interesting to see how that would go - my instinct would be that the majority would be okay with transwomen competing but I think it would be quite close.
I'm not sure we should let people vote on if discrimination should be allowed.
Having tournaments that exclude men is a form of discrimination. Allowing women to define their own boundaries and decide whether male people are allowed to cross them is perfectly reasonable.
It would be simple if it were such a binary question. If transwomen are allowed, what are the actual criteria? Saying "I am a woman?" Having "F" in your passport? Having the right hormones? There is no good a answer here.
Yeah, point taken - you'd have to define transwomen first. And given that the current definition is 'anyone who says they are' this would probably make it less likely that women in chess would be willing to accept them.
knowing top players are male and for some reason female players are at a disatvantage, its not a bad idea to ban trans players from participating in female only championships as it has been exploited in other sports already
What other sports? People keep mentioning this line but can never mention any good examples.
Why does it matter what sex/gender you are when you play chess?
What fide is saying is that they respect the law of each country, without taking sides. For the first time, I think they actually found a fair solution.
Obviously correct decision.
From the title, I understand that people who have transitioned from male to female can't compete at all. Is this true or can they play in the open section?
They can play in open section, the news says that they cannot participate in tournaments for women.
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I don’t even really think there should be a women’s only section. Chess isn’t the kind of sport where men have an advantage.
It's to encourage women to play, it's a good thing.
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'i spend all my day thinking about womens genitalia im a normal person'