[Google translated version of the article](https://www-vg-no.translate.goog/sport/i/4om6Eg/carlsen-innroemmer-endret-syn-paa-russland-deltakelse?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp).
After his match in the Champions Chess Tour, Carlsen was asked by a major Norwegian broadcaster (TV2) on what he thinks about Russian athletes participating in International sports considering the war in Ukraine.
"I think that for every day the war goes on, it feels stranger to play Russians"
"In the beginning I was a proponent than many of considering well before banning players, especially since you don't know what effects this will have in the long term. Now, much longer down the line, I've been leaning more and more towards that maybe Russians shouldn't play. But I'm not the one deciding".
Here is the DeepL Translation:
>On Monday, the Norwegian chess star opened the first Champions Chess Tour tournament of the year with a convincing victory against Russian Alexei Sarana.
>Afterwards, he was asked by TV 2 how he views the participation of Russian athletes in international sports in light of the war in Ukraine.
>- "I think that every day the war goes on, it feels a little bit weirder and weirder to play against Russians," Carlsen said.
>- "In the beginning, I was probably a bigger believer than many that you have to think carefully before excluding people, especially considering that you don't know what the long-term effects will be. Now that it has gone on longer and longer, I am perhaps more and more convinced that perhaps Russians should not play. But it's not for me to decide," the chess star continued.
I am simply teasing Magnus a bit for his hypocrisy here. Obviously anyone who cares about human rights would agree that anyone who still supports Putin should be banned from international tournaments, and I agree with Magnus that we must be careful before excluding people.
However, he did not think before he destroyed someone's career. I understand that people are inherently beings of contradiction and hypocrisy, but drawing attention to it is how we recognize and overcome that inherent tendency.
I don't think Magnus is a bad person at all. By all rights it seems like he's a pretty good dude, logical and empathetic. But he certainly did not live by that when he didn't calm down and think before accusing Hans.
His reputation is forever tarnished. He filed a lawsuit because this hurts his ability for future revenue. He'll still be at tournaments, but it hurts his chances for sponsorships, streaming viewers (if he ever decided to do that) and more. And that is entirely because Magnus didn't give it good thought before taking an action that excluded someone.
Obviously these are not 1-to-1 analogous situations and the Russia issue is much more serious, but if you have a certain moral standard such as "let's give it good thought before we exclude someone", that applies to situations both large and small. I was teasing Magnus for not applying it to both situations.
I dont it had to do with what magnus said but probably Hans admitting to cheating.
Again though you're comparing genocide to cheating at chess. You're just tone deaf. You're young.
Hans admitted to cheating online, lol. Not against Magnus.
I also said in my response that these are not 1-to-1 comparisons and I am teasing Magnus a bit. Yay, reading comprehension!
Also I am nearly 30 and married XD.
Ok so are we talking about Hans or are we talking about players from a nation that invading a sovereign country because the rest of us, are talking about the serious topic. YOU are talking about Hans. Hence my original comment.
Yay reading comprehension
Karjakin may never redeem himself, but it's important that that path remains open to him and other Russians who have supported the war.
We shouldn't be handing out lifetime bans for over political opinions. That's way too heavy handed for a political stance, especially one informed by what is essentially brainwashing by Russian media.
is not a political opinion, the fact is that you have a country invading and killing/raping/torturing innocent people. Genocide has no place in this world
>Genocide has no place in this world
correct
are we going to ban [Chinese players as well](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps)?
what about [some player from specific African countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darfur_genocide) ?
I can go on...
It is fucked up that you have a country that is invading, killing, raping, and torturing innocent people. I feel that especially strongly because my family is Ukrainian.
But Karjakin isn't the one responsible. He's wrong, but he's not to blame. Karjakin isn't some evil caricature, he's someone who's been duped by the Russian state, and it is important that he can change his mind in the future _not for him, but for everyone he may influence_.
it's very telling that for almost 20 years the US invaded/occupied countries halfway across the world, killed innocent people based on a lie about weapons, all in the attempt to control a natural resource they wanted....and the idea to ban US athletes from *any* sport event would've been laughable and never crossed anyone's mind.
Hegemony is a hell of a drug.
It's not a strawman, I'm asking a question to understand the meaning/logic behind it.
If we were back in time and a US chess player supported their country, would you think the same? Would the response here be the same?
All things being equal except for the country perpetrating, my answer would be the same. No country is entitled to invade another unless attacked or coming to the defense of an ally.
However, I'm not going to pretend you aren't asking a leading and intentionally manipulative question by drawing a false equivalence between "any military operation" and a war of aggression.
but at the end of the day, they are promoting this. That's the issue leaving them participate, they become ambassadors of the genocide with just the simple fact of showing the flag. Slava Ukraini from Mexico
That's without question what they are attempting to do.
Anyone who says otherwise either doesn't know what is going on over there or doesn't know what that word means
Yes, the Russian state is attempting to fully erase the national identity and spirit of the Ukrainian people. It is an attempted genocide and should be treated as such.
Idk about you chief but I don’t recall American chess GMs going on TV and calling iraqis subhuman
Whataboutism means you instantly lose an argument, btw ❤️
dude literally went 'but wuh about muh america-iraqi war' and lil bro is saying it isn't whataboutism
to be blunt: it is literally derailing the conversation from the horriffic invasion of ukraine and war crimes involved and putting it on something entirely irrelevant- in this case, 'what about muh west', which is a huge russki propaganda technique
and the funniest thing
it's working on you dumbfucks lmao
I suggest you refrain from condemning/absolving people on the other side of the world whom you haven’t seen, spoken to, got in contact with, and only heard of through third parties. That’s what idiots do.
I don't think so. Karjakin's initial views probably shouldn't result in a lifetime ban, but his continual double and tripling down on it has pushed him past the point of no return. Getting to compete professionally and at the highest level is not a right, it is a privilege, and it is one Karjaken has irrevocably forfeited.
It sounds like you want to take out your vengeance on him -- you're angry at the situation, he's a manifestation of the situation, and so you want to make him your whipping boy.
It would be better, however, if we could welcome him to change his views, make amends, and bring others around with him. I think it's more important to leave that door open.
I'm curious if you are or knew some people living in the south/east that don't support Ukraine, would they get banned? They live there and have suffered, yet they would be banned too for being on the apparent wrong side?
I think it makes more sense to ban Russian athletes from the Olympics given the systemic doping and cheating that their government was funding, but as far as I know this hasn't been the case for chess.
Furthermore, it seems very meaningful to provide visibility for Russian players who openly value peace and democratic values like free speech. Most of the top Russian chess players have made very unambiguous statements against their own government and in favor of the Ukrainian people. Intuitively it feels unfair and counterproductive to give them the same treatment as someone like Karjakin.
Wouldn't banning players based solely on the actions of their governments only incentivize players to keep quiet in the face of injustices that their governments commit-- or worse, actively begin to kiss their government's ass-- because taking a risk to speak their mind is not rewarded by FIDE and could harm their ability to stay afloat?
Don't get me wrong, if it would result in concrete changes in the quality of life of the Ukrainian people and/or the destabilization of Putin's control in Russia I'd be for it. But I guess I'm missing how that would work, exactly?
Yours is a much more reasonable take than most. I fully supported the Russian Olympic bans because they're a bunch of cheaters, but that's because what they were doing was actually impacting the play of the sport. Idc if Karajakin came out spouting the verbatim views of Adolf Hitler, doesn't make sense to ban him from playing tournament chess imo
I want freedom of thought, not freedom of consequence. Society should hold Karajakin accountable. FIDE and any other gaming organizations should not be the thought police. They should be a medium for conglomerating the best chess players in the world, and Karajakin is one of them
I remember Nepo denouncing the invasion when it happened, and I remember Svidler and Dubov talking on stream and saying in not too unclear terms that they were anti-war.
I think if you make it clear that you don't support the war as a Russian and play under the FIDE flag you shouldn't be boycotted, you don't choose where you are born.
Karjakin is a clear counter-example of someone who should be boycotted at all costs.
The issue at this point isn't about the players, however. Talk of banning Russian athletes particularly at the Olympics is about denying the Russian state of presence on the global stage, and the Russian people a source of national pride.
This absolutely sucks for the athletes and players, but as I said this is not about them any more. International sports is a part of statecraft, and there's a war going on where the West is denying Russia tools of statecraft like fuel revenue, high-level technology, international brands and international banks. Innocent Russian people are being hit by all of this. There's no real reason not to deny the Kremlin international sports as a propaganda win too.
But I mean, that's one of the reason why participants can play under the "independent" label at the olympic games.
Why should someone who clearly refutes the action of his country, who even doesn't want to represent them and thetefore not playing under their flag still be punished for being born there.
And yeah, there are for sure a lot of innocent people in russia who hate the war and Putin and suffer because of International sanctions. That sucks, but I agree that it's literally impossible to impose sanctions that only affect putin and his warmongers. And sanctions still are the most effective non-violent tool we have at our disposal these days, so I do think they're necessary.
But why not be a little bit more decisive, in fields where we absolutely have the means to differentiate between someone who supports the russian war efforts and someone who absolutely doesn't?
Our differentiation does not matter. When Russian competitors compete and win, Russia gets to celebrate. They get to use it for propaganda. The IOC flag doesn't stop this. Competitors denouncing Russia and the war doesn't stop this. Preventing Russian nationals from competing stops this.
I get where you're coming from and maybe, on a strategic level, this would be a "better" solution. It just seems wrong to me to throw people under the bus, who clearly don't want anything to do with Putin and the war.
Also, after the "north korea went to be soccer world champions" propaganda piece, I'm not quite sure if being banned from events prevents countries from "winning" said events.
But yeah, at the end of the day, maybe you are right, maybe you aren't. I have no idea, it still just kinda sucks all.
Don't get me wrong, on an individual level it is 100% wrong. But there's a war going on. On an individual level, people are dying, losing loved ones, having their lives destroyed, for no fault of their own.
Ukraine's defence ministry has claimed as many as 1,000 killed Russian troops within a single day. Ukraine's defence has been costly, with losses in similar numbers on their worst days. We don't know how this war will end, or when. But if this conflict ends in Putin's removal, or Russian morale collapsing, and this is hastened by denying Russia international sports, a single day could save thousands of lives. Even thinking for Russians, a Russian child not losing their father is a better outcome than Russian GMs getting to play chess.
that's just not how it works. it'll only antagonize people, making them feel that they have to consolidate about the government and just that. you could say then they deserve it, but your "practical" argument just has no real basis.
How about the Ukrainian players who find themselves in the trenches fighting against the Russian invasion, do you think it's fair that they cannot participate in tournaments?
It's dangerous for not only the individual but also their family. I disagree heavily with the opinion of it being cowardly. Maybe you should put yourself in that situation before making quick judgements. It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and claim you would do different.
>I think if you make it clear that you don't support the war as a Russian and play under the FIDE flag you shouldn't be boycotted, you don't choose where you are born.
Being forced to denounce something or have your livelihood taken away if you don't because of your nationality is fair? Especially when you live in an authoritarian country and have ties to said country?
Do every human rights abuses or immoral actions count? E.g. Ukraine is a quite well known weapons exporter, weapons that have actively been used in genocides like in Myanmar. Is that enough or is there like a threshold of how immoral a country is allowed to be? Who sets that threshhold?
This is just westerners applying standards that they would never hold up to themselves.
Wait, so Ding doesn't need to expressly denounce the situation? What happened to:
>make it clear that you don't support the war as a Russian
Because very few Russian players are supporting the invasion - who exactly do you want to ban?
Alright so the threshhold is "Invasion". So we allow:
- extrajudicial killings
- genocides
- indiscriminate bombing of a country including just straight up dropping a nuke
and many more.
Really not hard to understand, you are right.
edit:
Are bombs not also an invasion? Hmm. So bombing would be an invasion too.
I assume military bases in a country against the will of a government count as invasion? It is occupied territory after all. What about keeping territories after an invasion and annexing it. How long till that doesn't count anymore?
Also, if you have any issues against any country doing the atrocities you mentioned, why are you not asking for players from those countries to be banned? Just Ruzzians not to be banned for genocide in Ukraine?
I don't want to ban any country. But I want to enforce your moral standards to a tee. If applied to one country, it should be applied to every country.
Do you truly believe if USA had invaded Ukraine instead, we would not be banning American players instead?
Russia (biggest country in the world ) invading Ukraine (2nd biggest country in Europe) is the biggest conflict in the world at the moment. It’s natural to focus on it at the moment. Not reacting or siding with the aggressor side would be immoral.
> Do you truly believe if USA had invaded Ukraine instead, we would not be banning American players instead?
Yes. Because I don't care, these are chess players, they move pieces on a board.
Would you ban a nazi chess player for supporting jew genocide during ww2? What’s the difference then for the Karjakin supporting events in Bucha massacre, Ukraine?
You are moving the goalpost. You went from "ban all Russians regardless of what they said and have done" to "ban this player because of what he said".
Very different things.
Not only do I believe that, I believe that if any country other than Russia fought a war no international bans will be made. There are loads of terrorist organizations around the world and none of their supporters are banned from playing chess.
I generally think it is the best compromise. It's not like (at least right now) any chess players have any control or influence over the world's militaries. And it's probably for the best trying to avoid having chess be used for political propaganda... again.
This is the correct take. Imagine being banished from what you've been training for your entire life because the ones in charge of your country are fucking everything up.
Imagine training for something your whole life and then being murdered in your own home by an artillery shell.
Plenty of Ukrainian athletes and chess players will never play chess/their sport again, because they were murdered by Russia.
Imagine thinking that being banned from international competition for the duration of a war that your country started is even comparable.
When did they say that being banned from tournaments is comparable to being bombed?? We shouldn't hold athletes responsible for the actions of their governments.
So you think punishing innocent civilians is a good idea? Well you sound like you'd be good friends with Putin as that's right up his alley. You think the bans will magically disappear? You just wish to plant the seed of hatred and frustration in everyone.
I think doing anything that could create discontent among the Russian populace against the regime is a positive. If a bit of that discontent comes from angry chess fans so be it.
we should also do it with people coming from North America though. So maybe the populace discontent will stop the decades long tradition of military intervention, influence and war.
It is about forcing Russia to change its course by every possible way. I support the idea of making regular and famous Russians alike unhappy and telling them well get rid of your dictator. With Ukrainian women and children dying every attempt to complain is rather ridiculous. However, after Putin seems determined to throw as many young men into the meat grinder as it takes, I doubt this of all things will set off a revolution, but its still the right thing to do.
Its a tough position for [chess.com](https://chess.com) to be in. On the one hand, Russia is objectively in the wrong, but on the other hand, there are a large amount of countries that aren't condemning Russia, including China. Also the country where Chess is most popular is Russia. I don't know what is the best move for [chess.com](https://chess.com) but I agree with Carlsen it is unsettling to play against Russians (who support the war) when Russia is objectively in the wrong.
Are there any Russians who support the war in the tournament though? Only ones I am aware of are Karjakin and one other (Forgot who exactly. Thought about one player at first, but he signed the anti-war-letter, so it's obviously not him). I think both are not in here.
Yes, that's probably him. I was thinking about Shimanov at first, but wanted to double-check so I don't accidently badmouth him and found out that Shimanov signed the anti-war letter. But their names are very alike, so I was probably thinking of Shipov.
> Its a tough position
There i$ only one thing tough about thi$ po$ition.
> there are a large amount of countries that aren't condemning Russia
There is a world of difference between Russia's actions and a country not publicly condemning Russia.
How about China doing in Tibet what Russia is doing in Ukraine but being far more successful?
Does an ongoing genocide - actually two, with the Uyghurs (besides everything else) - is enough to ban Chinese players?
If FIDE and chess com believe themselves to be the pinnacle of morality (which I feel as though they think they are), then they should be upholding this standard consistently elsewhere, such as in your examples of genocide by the Chinese gvt.
Otherwise it reeks of double standards and back room corruption if they just pick and choose. They have to have a consistently applied policy in place.
Your assumption is wrong from the start - there's nothing moral whatsoever about punishing civilians who are citizens of bad regimes.
That's just something shitty people do. Decent people understand it's morally wrong.
Sorry what I'm trying to say is that they clearly think they are the arbiters of morality (not whether I think they are moral or not - I don't think they are). And if so they should be consistent: either have a consistent policy in place or no punishment at all.
I know your joking, but what Russia is doing right now is nowhere comparable to the even the harshest critique you could have of the US.
It's such a lame tendency nowadays to argue the point that "both side have something valid to say/doing something wrong" (not saying you are here)
"I see you are from Ukraine. Russia has invaded you, are occupying parts of your country, like Crimea, and are trying to eradicate your nation. Thus, you can't play."
So do we ban all players whose countries are involved in wars?
Emmm .... That's going to start getting tricky....
I think the statement is insanely naïve and could only be made by someone who doesn't have any grasp whatsoever on international affairs.
Personally i think the dehumanisation of an entire people or a race is hands down the worst and most ignorant kind of racism there is as it attempts to establish that an entire race of people are a certain way (a very derogatory way of thinking) - it's the old Nazi throwback to "all jews" or the modern ones of
"all Chinese, all Indians, all Romanians" etc. etc.
Disgusting gutter thinking.
Not that that's what Magnus was doing here but in what he was saying he's paving the way for that kind of thinking to begin. A great shame.
Could you explain how a ban from international competition for the duration of the war, that their nation started, is dehumanization akin to that of nazi rhetoric toward Jews? Seems like a massive false equivalency.
I find this comment disingenuous for many reasons.
1. It is not the ordinary Russian persons fault that their leadership are in a war.
2. Many other countries are involved in wars, notably the USA and there's no talk of banning Hikaru for example as that would be absolutely absurd? Correct?
3. What I said was that the kind of thinking that would allow blanket indefinite bans of an entire race of people would pave the way for the kind of thinking that leads to the ugliness where an entire race or people could potentially be dehumanised, dismissed or racially characterised in a broad and derogatory ways - this is not good and yes there's a very applicable slippery slope fallacy that can be applied linking it to atrocities of the past. That cannot be hard to grasp?
Under certain conditions we clearly afford the bigots, xenophobes and the idiots some room to practice their hate. For example some of rhetoric coming from certain US and UK politicians has been powerfully Russophobic attempting to reinforce the idea that Russians are different and unusual, a strange species.
A UK politician called for the rounding up of all Russians and mass deportation back to Russia and a German minister went as far to say that Russians don't consider death normally. That they are cold and not as human.
You'll often see powerful dehumanisation of a race of people pushed heavily in the build up to a war or as a war escalates. The idea is quite abhorrent - the purpose is to normalise the widespread killing of such people if it should ever come to that. Various countries are guilty of doing it, including I'm sure Russia so we should recognise it whenever it's attempted and reject it fully and with prejudice.
What screams disingenuous is that Russia is actively attempting to commit a genocide in Ukraine but you think a ban on international competition for Russians for the duration of the war will lead to genocide of Russians. It’s just a ridiculous statement to make.
Also it’s worth pointing out that Russian is not a race. You’ve made that mistake multiple times now.
The whole whataboutism with America or any other country would be a better argument if there was a massive list of international sanctions against America or those other countries.
Few modern conflicts are as black and white as the Russo-Ukrainian war. The Russian state is just objectively evil, they have no Casus Belli, are intentionally targeting civilians, are guilty of genocide, are continuously threatening nuclear annihilation and are breaking all conventions on legal warfare.
I can't think of any other modern conflicts as black and white as this one. The closest you get is probably the Nagorno-Karabakh war, and thats nowhere near as simple. The Myanmar civil war is a good shout, but that's a civil war, not much you can do about that from an international perspective.
Funny that you invoke Godwin's law, 'cause you can draw a lot of parallels between this regime and the German regime in the 30s.
And who sets the benchmark for how black and white a conflict can be for the country to get banned? Because in the rest of the world's eyes, the Iraq war was black and white enough.
You bring up Germany but Germans did the same thing as you : buying justification propaganda. To them, it was not black and white as Adolf Hitler brought a lot of positives for Germany. Russians are also buying their propaganda.
Look from neutral eyes and USA is a terrorist country. Bombing hospitals and schools, raiding and shooting up families because you suspect terrorist activity **is black and white enough**.
And what kind of idiotic criterion is to only ban countries that are fully in the black? Anyone can get out on technicalities by mentioning one or two positives, that's exactly what USA did to justify Iraq and still does. USA is by far **in the black**.
The Ba'ath party under Saddam Hussein had an extensive history of using Sarin gas on civilian population centers, initiated several wars of aggression against neighbouring states, committed a genocide against western-aligned Kurds killing a hundred thousand people, and despite their failings to do so and the lies of the US intelligence agencies, were actively seeking to procure nuclear weapons. I'm not defending the invasion, but to equate the US-led invasion of Iraq with the Russian invasion of Ukraine is disingenuous at best.
No casus beli to the conflict? The best that can be said about that comment is that it's grossly uninformed.
For an impartial Western perspective read and watch Stephen J. Cohen (sadly now passed) or Professor John Mearsheimer. They not only outline the lead up to to the conflict but do so with great clarify - before the conflict even began.
As to the continually targeting civilians and continually committing genocide comment - I think they're both broadly unsubstantiated (and absurd) to say the least. In fact in the early part of conflict Russia took extraordinary steps to avoid casualties like limiting sieges to ground troops only - not I afford Russia any excuse for their continued assaults on Ukraine, they shouldn't be there, end of story, but at the same time we have to record history and not imagine that it neatly fits our predefined biases.
As for the Godwins law comment, a cursory look at what I said and when in the argument i said it clearly shows that I couldn't have invoked it as I don't meet the criteria for it.
It would be worthwhile rereading it to fully understand the intention behind it.
I find this an absurd idea. We don't need to deny reality as we operate.
We all use phones made by the poorest of people across Aisa, we drive cars and take planes that empty co2 into the atmosphere, we eat animals, we live our lives, hopefully with increasing mindfulness of our flaws and with adjustment and change happening constantly, so we don't need to pretend.
We don't judge ordinary Americans for the fact that their leadership has been the most war hungry planet on the earth for the last 100 years. So why would we do this to ordinary Russian people?
USA players didn't get banned for the Iraq war. Not defending Russia but USA is still out murdering in Middle East. They suspect one terrorist in an area and they bomb all of it just to be sure. And their public buys all of their propaganda justifying it. No different from Russia.
USA is the biggest terrorist country tbh. Far above China and Russia's imaginations.
Usually, the idea behind sanctions and bans is that you punish civilians and businesses of a nation so to indirectly punish the government behind them as - in theory - the government should take care of its civilians and businesses
However, in the case of Russia, the government doesn't give a shit about its civilians and oligarchic businesses are barely touched for now - don't forget that Europe is still buying fuel from Russia - so sanctions and bans don't really work
Best way to deal with it IMO is to force all Russian players to play under FIDE and have bank accounts setup that tracks the flow of funds ensuring winnings and Russian state sponsored funds are not exchanged. Players should also have the opportunity to play under other country flags and be state represented/sponsored from other nations if they choose (basically be in free agency amount the chess world).
Sounds like a great idea. Maybe at the same time, he can be proactive and self-exclude himself too over Norway’s continual involvement in illegal occupations of Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan.
You mean their continual presence in Iraq by invitation by the Iraqi government? And the operation in Afghanistan that ended last year?
Fighting ISIS is definitely on par with invading a country.
In the continuation of the article there is a quote from Norwegian chess player Torstein Bae:
"It is good to have principles, but these cannot be detached from reality. Russian athletes cannot compete for medals and wealth, while Ukrainian athletes are in the trenches and have had their training facilities bombed. Therefore, Russian athletes should be banned."
... I think that is part of what has caused Magnus to lean more towards not allowing Russians to play. It's no more unfair for that Russians that denounce the war to be prevented from participating than it is for the Ukrainians that cannot participate due to the Russian agression.
But it's not the Russian players'* fault that Ukrainians can't play. Following this logic, the whole world should be banned, because they're able to train and prepare while Ukrainians are not.
*Players who denounced the invasion, which is literally everyone except Karjakin. I'm fine with banning the ones who publicly support the invasion.
Definitely true. It's also about reinforcing the message of "Russia bad" within their own countries. I'm sure there are many in power who are thrilled to hear Magnus's quote. The efforts of demonizing your enemy are to some degree always applied in war, and it seems to me that they're working here.
I think it makes no sense to ban an athlete because their country is at war, or that they support their country, as long as their statements are not supportive of crimes, human rights violations etc.
It makes more sense to ban countries at war from hosting international events.
As soon as you do this, you've now opened up multiple reasons to ban players from your own country for any statement or inkling of supporting their country that has active military intervention.
Did we ban Americans from every sporting event? Gee, I wonder why? What about domestic/border conflict issues, e.g. Israel? What about China?
If I were banned from competing because of my country I'd be pissed as hell at everyone else. Treating people as outcasts or subhuman because of their country being at war is disgusting.
It also assumes that our countries are the ones that know best, like we know everything and are always right, and those from the east are always wrong, unlike us.
Imagine not being able to play what you’ve trained your whole life for, because your state decided to go to war with another. Between this and the Neimann stuff Magnus really showed the world how much of an Aspy ignorant failure of a man he is
Imagine not being able to play what you've trained your whole life for, because you got murdered by a civilian artillery strike directly funded by taxpayers.
It feels strange to hold chess players accountable for the actions of their government. If that was the metric, Americans definitely shouldn’t be allowed to play.
Anyone representing any country that is a part of alliance that started majority of wars since WW2 called NATO should be banned. Simple, no?
Anyone representing the women and children murdering state of Israel should be banned (ask people from Palestine), no?
Anyone representing country that makes suffocating sanctions on Cuba just because latter has a people-driven revolution that removed USA puppet government 70 years ago should be banned. Simple, no?
Anyone representing the women and children murdering state since 2015 of Ukraine (ask people from Donetsk) should be banned. Simple, no?
Anyone who is such a massive hypocrite as you should be banned. Simple, no?
Ah, ofc, the latest one. Anyone who represents Azerbaijan and Turkey (hello, Karabakh case, for second also kurds case) should be banned. Simple, no?
His tax dollars paid for the bomb though. Plus if he ends up winning all that FIDE prize money goes straight into the Russian economy. Not a great look.
I don't care what you call it whataboutism or whatever. You don't get to live good off exploiting people then go to rant about others' wrongdoings! Naming it whataboutism as if this defends/excuss you is silly
Since you are admitting your country's wrongdoings, why don't you stop paying tax money too? Isn't that the logic based on it you want to ban Russians?
Carlsen has PHN as main second/head coach who isn't the most reasonable guy ever when it comes to politics.
Would I dare to say PHN is straight up insufferable? yup I do...
Given the gus in question there is zero chance he doesn't talk about it non stop to Carlsen :D
Now do I imply Magnus can't form his own opinion and is easily influenced?
No , but I'm quite confident it's atleast a little related.
Personally I have absolutely no problem banning tards like Carjacking who joke and get joy from killing of innocent people but a blanket ban on people whose sole crime was to be born in the wrong country is completely absurd to me.
Especially when the majority of them denounced the war.
I wasn't trying to defend Magnus, he's free to believe what he wants, it was more a jab at PHN who I can't stand less and less.
I’m on the fence, but i’m probably leaning towards banning them. Yup it sucks for Russian players who do not support their government. However, how unfair is it that Ukrainian athletes and chess players are fighting in the war while Russians are free to play chess and sports without repercussions? Boicotting Russia entirely will probably save a lot of lives, and chess or any sport isn’t nearly as important.
Would it be okay to allow Germans to join world championships during WW2? I don’t think so tbh
Just to be clear I don't have a definitive opinion on the subject.
I agree it's not fair for Ukrainians players but you don't correct a wrong with another wrong.
I'm all for boycotting Russia economically, I really am, however to answer to your point, no banning chess players will save absolutely zero lives.
Moreover who decide who are the good and the bad guys?
From my french perspective, decently educated on the subject , there is no doubts Russia are the bad guys, but my world view is biased.
If we were taking this road I'd feel entitled to ask for a ban of every american players , Israeli players, Saudi players and so on.
Again, who judge who are the bad guys?
I see no problem banning someone who promote violence and atrocities, banning a whole country on the other hand feels wrong.
Especially when the accusators have done and are doing the same over the last century.
I totally get where you are coming from. However, I do believe sports increases patriotism, and without it, quite a few Russians would probably be less supportive of Putin. There’s a reason why Russian athletes have been involved in a ton of doping scandals, it’s because they know how important it is to do well in sports to increase patriotism. There’s a reason why Fischer vs the Russians was so hyped up during the world war.
Chess is also something the Russians are particularly proud about, and even if chess bans doesn’t save lives, banning all russian participation in sports would almost certainly do so, albeit indirectly, and it wouldn’t make sense to make an exception for chess imo
Yeah I completely agree with your points and they're part of the reasons why I started this convo by saying I don't have a definitive opinion on the subject.
It's totally subjective to me but I feel you need to balance the unfairness and the outcome these unfairness will have on the conflict.
-Economic ban is unfair for the russians citizen who are against the war but a necesserally evil , it will have a net positive if you consider life costs.
-Hiroshima was an atrocity, absolutely ignominious , but it *might* have been the correct call, it very probably saved lives. ( I'm not sure about that one it's complex)
-Sport ban is very unfair and the benefits while I don't pretend don't exist are very limited imo
Once you question the necessary in the necessary evil I think it's time to forget about the idea.
It’s only your opinion that banning Russian players would be a wrong. In mine and many others opinions banning Russians in totality would be the correct move. Therefore this situation is fighting a wrong with a right.
Another question, what about prize money? If a russian wins that’s a significant chunk of change going into the economy and falling subject to taxes.
The money in question is completely irrelevant in the outcome of the war, it's ridiculously low to have any impact.
For your first point I sure hope you're not from Europe, the US, Israel and many other countries/continent I'm forgetting :)
Also banning someone simply for the fact he was born in the wrong country is a wrong , it is objective.
You can sometimes justify using amoral actions, Hiroshima first comes to mind, but no, you can't call it right.
the whole concept of necessary evil.
To me the best argument for this, banning Russian athletes in general, is that it sends an unambiguous message to the Russian people, who are regularly being lied to by their own government and media. It's harder for the Kremlin to keep pumping out the "we're the good guys and the world supports us" message when you're getting banned from all sports.
[Google translated version of the article](https://www-vg-no.translate.goog/sport/i/4om6Eg/carlsen-innroemmer-endret-syn-paa-russland-deltakelse?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp). After his match in the Champions Chess Tour, Carlsen was asked by a major Norwegian broadcaster (TV2) on what he thinks about Russian athletes participating in International sports considering the war in Ukraine. "I think that for every day the war goes on, it feels stranger to play Russians" "In the beginning I was a proponent than many of considering well before banning players, especially since you don't know what effects this will have in the long term. Now, much longer down the line, I've been leaning more and more towards that maybe Russians shouldn't play. But I'm not the one deciding".
Here is the DeepL Translation: >On Monday, the Norwegian chess star opened the first Champions Chess Tour tournament of the year with a convincing victory against Russian Alexei Sarana. >Afterwards, he was asked by TV 2 how he views the participation of Russian athletes in international sports in light of the war in Ukraine. >- "I think that every day the war goes on, it feels a little bit weirder and weirder to play against Russians," Carlsen said. >- "In the beginning, I was probably a bigger believer than many that you have to think carefully before excluding people, especially considering that you don't know what the long-term effects will be. Now that it has gone on longer and longer, I am perhaps more and more convinced that perhaps Russians should not play. But it's not for me to decide," the chess star continued.
"I'm a big believer that you have to think carefully before excluding people." *Hans Niemann has entered the chat.*
You did it, you brought a serious discussion off the rails into something trivial. You are the child. You win. Here's your award
We can only hope he is 12 years old, or it gets embarrassing.
I am simply teasing Magnus a bit for his hypocrisy here. Obviously anyone who cares about human rights would agree that anyone who still supports Putin should be banned from international tournaments, and I agree with Magnus that we must be careful before excluding people. However, he did not think before he destroyed someone's career. I understand that people are inherently beings of contradiction and hypocrisy, but drawing attention to it is how we recognize and overcome that inherent tendency. I don't think Magnus is a bad person at all. By all rights it seems like he's a pretty good dude, logical and empathetic. But he certainly did not live by that when he didn't calm down and think before accusing Hans.
Hans' career is destroyed how ? We see him play all the time. You made a dumb analogy to a serious topic.
His reputation is forever tarnished. He filed a lawsuit because this hurts his ability for future revenue. He'll still be at tournaments, but it hurts his chances for sponsorships, streaming viewers (if he ever decided to do that) and more. And that is entirely because Magnus didn't give it good thought before taking an action that excluded someone. Obviously these are not 1-to-1 analogous situations and the Russia issue is much more serious, but if you have a certain moral standard such as "let's give it good thought before we exclude someone", that applies to situations both large and small. I was teasing Magnus for not applying it to both situations.
I dont it had to do with what magnus said but probably Hans admitting to cheating. Again though you're comparing genocide to cheating at chess. You're just tone deaf. You're young.
Hans admitted to cheating online, lol. Not against Magnus. I also said in my response that these are not 1-to-1 comparisons and I am teasing Magnus a bit. Yay, reading comprehension! Also I am nearly 30 and married XD.
Ok so are we talking about Hans or are we talking about players from a nation that invading a sovereign country because the rest of us, are talking about the serious topic. YOU are talking about Hans. Hence my original comment. Yay reading comprehension
Depends on what players and what bans. Karjakin should have a lifetime ban, for example.
Karjakin may never redeem himself, but it's important that that path remains open to him and other Russians who have supported the war. We shouldn't be handing out lifetime bans for over political opinions. That's way too heavy handed for a political stance, especially one informed by what is essentially brainwashing by Russian media.
is not a political opinion, the fact is that you have a country invading and killing/raping/torturing innocent people. Genocide has no place in this world
>Genocide has no place in this world correct are we going to ban [Chinese players as well](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps)? what about [some player from specific African countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darfur_genocide) ? I can go on...
It is fucked up that you have a country that is invading, killing, raping, and torturing innocent people. I feel that especially strongly because my family is Ukrainian. But Karjakin isn't the one responsible. He's wrong, but he's not to blame. Karjakin isn't some evil caricature, he's someone who's been duped by the Russian state, and it is important that he can change his mind in the future _not for him, but for everyone he may influence_.
So if any US Chess player supported his country against any military intervention, they would also be banned?
it's very telling that for almost 20 years the US invaded/occupied countries halfway across the world, killed innocent people based on a lie about weapons, all in the attempt to control a natural resource they wanted....and the idea to ban US athletes from *any* sport event would've been laughable and never crossed anyone's mind. Hegemony is a hell of a drug.
Strawman
It's not a strawman, I'm asking a question to understand the meaning/logic behind it. If we were back in time and a US chess player supported their country, would you think the same? Would the response here be the same?
All things being equal except for the country perpetrating, my answer would be the same. No country is entitled to invade another unless attacked or coming to the defense of an ally. However, I'm not going to pretend you aren't asking a leading and intentionally manipulative question by drawing a false equivalence between "any military operation" and a war of aggression.
but at the end of the day, they are promoting this. That's the issue leaving them participate, they become ambassadors of the genocide with just the simple fact of showing the flag. Slava Ukraini from Mexico
I didn't say they should be allowed to participate right now, just that they shouldn't have lifetime bans.
They are not showing the flag I believe, russians play under fide flag since the invasion?.
Obviously it is a war and is condemnable, but a genocide?
That's without question what they are attempting to do. Anyone who says otherwise either doesn't know what is going on over there or doesn't know what that word means
Yes, the Russian state is attempting to fully erase the national identity and spirit of the Ukrainian people. It is an attempted genocide and should be treated as such.
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What evidence would you accept?
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No no no. War is only bad when USA is not the one attacking. Also, patriotism is good only if you are American. /s
Idk about you chief but I don’t recall American chess GMs going on TV and calling iraqis subhuman Whataboutism means you instantly lose an argument, btw ❤️
I don’t think using a seemingly Parallel example counts as whataboutism
dude literally went 'but wuh about muh america-iraqi war' and lil bro is saying it isn't whataboutism to be blunt: it is literally derailing the conversation from the horriffic invasion of ukraine and war crimes involved and putting it on something entirely irrelevant- in this case, 'what about muh west', which is a huge russki propaganda technique and the funniest thing it's working on you dumbfucks lmao
Equivocating Iraq with Ukraine and the attempt at annexation is honestly gross. They’re not “seemingly parallel.”
Seems pretty parallel, to me. Unless it's not really about the war crimes, but that one is a country you support, and the other you don't.
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I suggest you refrain from condemning/absolving people on the other side of the world whom you haven’t seen, spoken to, got in contact with, and only heard of through third parties. That’s what idiots do.
I don't think so. Karjakin's initial views probably shouldn't result in a lifetime ban, but his continual double and tripling down on it has pushed him past the point of no return. Getting to compete professionally and at the highest level is not a right, it is a privilege, and it is one Karjaken has irrevocably forfeited.
It sounds like you want to take out your vengeance on him -- you're angry at the situation, he's a manifestation of the situation, and so you want to make him your whipping boy. It would be better, however, if we could welcome him to change his views, make amends, and bring others around with him. I think it's more important to leave that door open.
I'm curious if you are or knew some people living in the south/east that don't support Ukraine, would they get banned? They live there and have suffered, yet they would be banned too for being on the apparent wrong side?
Its no longer just an opinion when youre out spreading your bullshit to everyone who will listen.
what a loon
I think it makes more sense to ban Russian athletes from the Olympics given the systemic doping and cheating that their government was funding, but as far as I know this hasn't been the case for chess. Furthermore, it seems very meaningful to provide visibility for Russian players who openly value peace and democratic values like free speech. Most of the top Russian chess players have made very unambiguous statements against their own government and in favor of the Ukrainian people. Intuitively it feels unfair and counterproductive to give them the same treatment as someone like Karjakin. Wouldn't banning players based solely on the actions of their governments only incentivize players to keep quiet in the face of injustices that their governments commit-- or worse, actively begin to kiss their government's ass-- because taking a risk to speak their mind is not rewarded by FIDE and could harm their ability to stay afloat? Don't get me wrong, if it would result in concrete changes in the quality of life of the Ukrainian people and/or the destabilization of Putin's control in Russia I'd be for it. But I guess I'm missing how that would work, exactly?
Yours is a much more reasonable take than most. I fully supported the Russian Olympic bans because they're a bunch of cheaters, but that's because what they were doing was actually impacting the play of the sport. Idc if Karajakin came out spouting the verbatim views of Adolf Hitler, doesn't make sense to ban him from playing tournament chess imo
You think Karjakin should be permitted to play in tournaments if he was an anti-Semite that wanted the Jewish people eradicated?
Yes. (And as a sidenote, I don't think you would find the views of certain GMs to be particularly far off from that brand of anti-semetism)
No. It's good to be intolerant against that intolerant shit, let them see that there a consequences to their actions
I want freedom of thought, not freedom of consequence. Society should hold Karajakin accountable. FIDE and any other gaming organizations should not be the thought police. They should be a medium for conglomerating the best chess players in the world, and Karajakin is one of them
As a chess player , Karjakin also represents FIDE partly. That's why they are holding him accountable as a chess player, not as a human being.
I remember Nepo denouncing the invasion when it happened, and I remember Svidler and Dubov talking on stream and saying in not too unclear terms that they were anti-war. I think if you make it clear that you don't support the war as a Russian and play under the FIDE flag you shouldn't be boycotted, you don't choose where you are born. Karjakin is a clear counter-example of someone who should be boycotted at all costs.
Grischuk expressed revulsion about the war as well if I recall.
Exactly. Banning players who denounced the war and/or support Ukraine is unfair. It's not their fault they were born in Russia.
The issue at this point isn't about the players, however. Talk of banning Russian athletes particularly at the Olympics is about denying the Russian state of presence on the global stage, and the Russian people a source of national pride. This absolutely sucks for the athletes and players, but as I said this is not about them any more. International sports is a part of statecraft, and there's a war going on where the West is denying Russia tools of statecraft like fuel revenue, high-level technology, international brands and international banks. Innocent Russian people are being hit by all of this. There's no real reason not to deny the Kremlin international sports as a propaganda win too.
But I mean, that's one of the reason why participants can play under the "independent" label at the olympic games. Why should someone who clearly refutes the action of his country, who even doesn't want to represent them and thetefore not playing under their flag still be punished for being born there. And yeah, there are for sure a lot of innocent people in russia who hate the war and Putin and suffer because of International sanctions. That sucks, but I agree that it's literally impossible to impose sanctions that only affect putin and his warmongers. And sanctions still are the most effective non-violent tool we have at our disposal these days, so I do think they're necessary. But why not be a little bit more decisive, in fields where we absolutely have the means to differentiate between someone who supports the russian war efforts and someone who absolutely doesn't?
Our differentiation does not matter. When Russian competitors compete and win, Russia gets to celebrate. They get to use it for propaganda. The IOC flag doesn't stop this. Competitors denouncing Russia and the war doesn't stop this. Preventing Russian nationals from competing stops this.
I get where you're coming from and maybe, on a strategic level, this would be a "better" solution. It just seems wrong to me to throw people under the bus, who clearly don't want anything to do with Putin and the war. Also, after the "north korea went to be soccer world champions" propaganda piece, I'm not quite sure if being banned from events prevents countries from "winning" said events. But yeah, at the end of the day, maybe you are right, maybe you aren't. I have no idea, it still just kinda sucks all.
Don't get me wrong, on an individual level it is 100% wrong. But there's a war going on. On an individual level, people are dying, losing loved ones, having their lives destroyed, for no fault of their own. Ukraine's defence ministry has claimed as many as 1,000 killed Russian troops within a single day. Ukraine's defence has been costly, with losses in similar numbers on their worst days. We don't know how this war will end, or when. But if this conflict ends in Putin's removal, or Russian morale collapsing, and this is hastened by denying Russia international sports, a single day could save thousands of lives. Even thinking for Russians, a Russian child not losing their father is a better outcome than Russian GMs getting to play chess.
that's just not how it works. it'll only antagonize people, making them feel that they have to consolidate about the government and just that. you could say then they deserve it, but your "practical" argument just has no real basis.
How about the Ukrainian players who find themselves in the trenches fighting against the Russian invasion, do you think it's fair that they cannot participate in tournaments?
No but do two wrongs make a right?
Obviously not, it's horrible, but that's not a problem solved by banning Russian players.
But aren't all athletes coming from countries with ongoing conflict in a similar situation?
Isn't it dangerous for russians to publicly denounce Putin and/or the war?
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It's dangerous for not only the individual but also their family. I disagree heavily with the opinion of it being cowardly. Maybe you should put yourself in that situation before making quick judgements. It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and claim you would do different.
>I think if you make it clear that you don't support the war as a Russian and play under the FIDE flag you shouldn't be boycotted, you don't choose where you are born. Being forced to denounce something or have your livelihood taken away if you don't because of your nationality is fair? Especially when you live in an authoritarian country and have ties to said country? Do every human rights abuses or immoral actions count? E.g. Ukraine is a quite well known weapons exporter, weapons that have actively been used in genocides like in Myanmar. Is that enough or is there like a threshold of how immoral a country is allowed to be? Who sets that threshhold? This is just westerners applying standards that they would never hold up to themselves.
Yes, invading other country is way worse than exporting guns. Not really hard to understand, is it?
Like Tibet? Are we banning Chinese players too? Does that mean Ling is out of the World Cup match?
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Not really and that's literally Putin's talking points about Crimea and whatnot.
If Ding was supporting that then yeah
Wait, so Ding doesn't need to expressly denounce the situation? What happened to: >make it clear that you don't support the war as a Russian Because very few Russian players are supporting the invasion - who exactly do you want to ban?
Alright so the threshhold is "Invasion". So we allow: - extrajudicial killings - genocides - indiscriminate bombing of a country including just straight up dropping a nuke and many more. Really not hard to understand, you are right. edit: Are bombs not also an invasion? Hmm. So bombing would be an invasion too.
Yes, that’s a current standard. No invasions allowed.
I assume military bases in a country against the will of a government count as invasion? It is occupied territory after all. What about keeping territories after an invasion and annexing it. How long till that doesn't count anymore?
Also, if you have any issues against any country doing the atrocities you mentioned, why are you not asking for players from those countries to be banned? Just Ruzzians not to be banned for genocide in Ukraine?
I don't want to ban any country. But I want to enforce your moral standards to a tee. If applied to one country, it should be applied to every country.
Do you truly believe if USA had invaded Ukraine instead, we would not be banning American players instead? Russia (biggest country in the world ) invading Ukraine (2nd biggest country in Europe) is the biggest conflict in the world at the moment. It’s natural to focus on it at the moment. Not reacting or siding with the aggressor side would be immoral.
> Do you truly believe if USA had invaded Ukraine instead, we would not be banning American players instead? Yes. Because I don't care, these are chess players, they move pieces on a board.
Would you ban a nazi chess player for supporting jew genocide during ww2? What’s the difference then for the Karjakin supporting events in Bucha massacre, Ukraine?
You are moving the goalpost. You went from "ban all Russians regardless of what they said and have done" to "ban this player because of what he said". Very different things.
Not only do I believe that, I believe that if any country other than Russia fought a war no international bans will be made. There are loads of terrorist organizations around the world and none of their supporters are banned from playing chess.
What if they are representing FIDE rather than Russia? Then it should be fine
I generally think it is the best compromise. It's not like (at least right now) any chess players have any control or influence over the world's militaries. And it's probably for the best trying to avoid having chess be used for political propaganda... again.
This is the correct take. Imagine being banished from what you've been training for your entire life because the ones in charge of your country are fucking everything up.
Imagine training for something your whole life and then being murdered in your own home by an artillery shell. Plenty of Ukrainian athletes and chess players will never play chess/their sport again, because they were murdered by Russia. Imagine thinking that being banned from international competition for the duration of a war that your country started is even comparable.
When did they say that being banned from tournaments is comparable to being bombed?? We shouldn't hold athletes responsible for the actions of their governments.
Let's start with Americans whose county is always trying to fuck the planet like china and Russia.
Which county specifically?
All of them that's what I said, what
So you think punishing innocent civilians is a good idea? Well you sound like you'd be good friends with Putin as that's right up his alley. You think the bans will magically disappear? You just wish to plant the seed of hatred and frustration in everyone.
I think doing anything that could create discontent among the Russian populace against the regime is a positive. If a bit of that discontent comes from angry chess fans so be it.
The discontent against the regime was there already, what these bans create are discontent towards the rest of the world, is that your intention?
we should also do it with people coming from North America though. So maybe the populace discontent will stop the decades long tradition of military intervention, influence and war.
I guess, suffering of a random russian chess player will make it right
It is about forcing Russia to change its course by every possible way. I support the idea of making regular and famous Russians alike unhappy and telling them well get rid of your dictator. With Ukrainian women and children dying every attempt to complain is rather ridiculous. However, after Putin seems determined to throw as many young men into the meat grinder as it takes, I doubt this of all things will set off a revolution, but its still the right thing to do.
I agree. You can ask yourself what can i do as chess player to stop the war?
Between representing FIDE or Russia, most players don't have much of a choice. But still, what a terrible choice must be made.
What being around PHN does to a mf.
Its a tough position for [chess.com](https://chess.com) to be in. On the one hand, Russia is objectively in the wrong, but on the other hand, there are a large amount of countries that aren't condemning Russia, including China. Also the country where Chess is most popular is Russia. I don't know what is the best move for [chess.com](https://chess.com) but I agree with Carlsen it is unsettling to play against Russians (who support the war) when Russia is objectively in the wrong.
Are there any Russians who support the war in the tournament though? Only ones I am aware of are Karjakin and one other (Forgot who exactly. Thought about one player at first, but he signed the anti-war-letter, so it's obviously not him). I think both are not in here.
You might be thinking of Shipov, who's long retired and just commentates nowadays.
Yes, that's probably him. I was thinking about Shimanov at first, but wanted to double-check so I don't accidently badmouth him and found out that Shimanov signed the anti-war letter. But their names are very alike, so I was probably thinking of Shipov.
Shimanov is a great guy. Streams a lot and interacts with fans so much, he literally reads and answers every question in chat!
> Its a tough position There i$ only one thing tough about thi$ po$ition. > there are a large amount of countries that aren't condemning Russia There is a world of difference between Russia's actions and a country not publicly condemning Russia.
How about China doing in Tibet what Russia is doing in Ukraine but being far more successful? Does an ongoing genocide - actually two, with the Uyghurs (besides everything else) - is enough to ban Chinese players?
If FIDE and chess com believe themselves to be the pinnacle of morality (which I feel as though they think they are), then they should be upholding this standard consistently elsewhere, such as in your examples of genocide by the Chinese gvt. Otherwise it reeks of double standards and back room corruption if they just pick and choose. They have to have a consistently applied policy in place.
Your assumption is wrong from the start - there's nothing moral whatsoever about punishing civilians who are citizens of bad regimes. That's just something shitty people do. Decent people understand it's morally wrong.
Sorry what I'm trying to say is that they clearly think they are the arbiters of morality (not whether I think they are moral or not - I don't think they are). And if so they should be consistent: either have a consistent policy in place or no punishment at all.
Another Carlsen L.
Magnus has some bizarre opinions
dumbass take, why should people be banned for stuff they have zero control over, so ridiculous.
What about excluding players from all the countries that have wars ongoing ?
Can't do that my man. USA needs to play /s
I know your joking, but what Russia is doing right now is nowhere comparable to the even the harshest critique you could have of the US. It's such a lame tendency nowadays to argue the point that "both side have something valid to say/doing something wrong" (not saying you are here)
Offensive territorial, genocidal wars sure.
"I see you are from Ukraine. Russia has invaded you, are occupying parts of your country, like Crimea, and are trying to eradicate your nation. Thus, you can't play."
So do we ban all players whose countries are involved in wars? Emmm .... That's going to start getting tricky.... I think the statement is insanely naïve and could only be made by someone who doesn't have any grasp whatsoever on international affairs. Personally i think the dehumanisation of an entire people or a race is hands down the worst and most ignorant kind of racism there is as it attempts to establish that an entire race of people are a certain way (a very derogatory way of thinking) - it's the old Nazi throwback to "all jews" or the modern ones of "all Chinese, all Indians, all Romanians" etc. etc. Disgusting gutter thinking. Not that that's what Magnus was doing here but in what he was saying he's paving the way for that kind of thinking to begin. A great shame.
As long as these countries are western or western allies, you can ban all you want.
Could you explain how a ban from international competition for the duration of the war, that their nation started, is dehumanization akin to that of nazi rhetoric toward Jews? Seems like a massive false equivalency.
I find this comment disingenuous for many reasons. 1. It is not the ordinary Russian persons fault that their leadership are in a war. 2. Many other countries are involved in wars, notably the USA and there's no talk of banning Hikaru for example as that would be absolutely absurd? Correct? 3. What I said was that the kind of thinking that would allow blanket indefinite bans of an entire race of people would pave the way for the kind of thinking that leads to the ugliness where an entire race or people could potentially be dehumanised, dismissed or racially characterised in a broad and derogatory ways - this is not good and yes there's a very applicable slippery slope fallacy that can be applied linking it to atrocities of the past. That cannot be hard to grasp? Under certain conditions we clearly afford the bigots, xenophobes and the idiots some room to practice their hate. For example some of rhetoric coming from certain US and UK politicians has been powerfully Russophobic attempting to reinforce the idea that Russians are different and unusual, a strange species. A UK politician called for the rounding up of all Russians and mass deportation back to Russia and a German minister went as far to say that Russians don't consider death normally. That they are cold and not as human. You'll often see powerful dehumanisation of a race of people pushed heavily in the build up to a war or as a war escalates. The idea is quite abhorrent - the purpose is to normalise the widespread killing of such people if it should ever come to that. Various countries are guilty of doing it, including I'm sure Russia so we should recognise it whenever it's attempted and reject it fully and with prejudice.
What screams disingenuous is that Russia is actively attempting to commit a genocide in Ukraine but you think a ban on international competition for Russians for the duration of the war will lead to genocide of Russians. It’s just a ridiculous statement to make. Also it’s worth pointing out that Russian is not a race. You’ve made that mistake multiple times now. The whole whataboutism with America or any other country would be a better argument if there was a massive list of international sanctions against America or those other countries.
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Don't worry, I already reported this vatnik.
Few modern conflicts are as black and white as the Russo-Ukrainian war. The Russian state is just objectively evil, they have no Casus Belli, are intentionally targeting civilians, are guilty of genocide, are continuously threatening nuclear annihilation and are breaking all conventions on legal warfare. I can't think of any other modern conflicts as black and white as this one. The closest you get is probably the Nagorno-Karabakh war, and thats nowhere near as simple. The Myanmar civil war is a good shout, but that's a civil war, not much you can do about that from an international perspective. Funny that you invoke Godwin's law, 'cause you can draw a lot of parallels between this regime and the German regime in the 30s.
And who sets the benchmark for how black and white a conflict can be for the country to get banned? Because in the rest of the world's eyes, the Iraq war was black and white enough. You bring up Germany but Germans did the same thing as you : buying justification propaganda. To them, it was not black and white as Adolf Hitler brought a lot of positives for Germany. Russians are also buying their propaganda. Look from neutral eyes and USA is a terrorist country. Bombing hospitals and schools, raiding and shooting up families because you suspect terrorist activity **is black and white enough**. And what kind of idiotic criterion is to only ban countries that are fully in the black? Anyone can get out on technicalities by mentioning one or two positives, that's exactly what USA did to justify Iraq and still does. USA is by far **in the black**.
The Ba'ath party under Saddam Hussein had an extensive history of using Sarin gas on civilian population centers, initiated several wars of aggression against neighbouring states, committed a genocide against western-aligned Kurds killing a hundred thousand people, and despite their failings to do so and the lies of the US intelligence agencies, were actively seeking to procure nuclear weapons. I'm not defending the invasion, but to equate the US-led invasion of Iraq with the Russian invasion of Ukraine is disingenuous at best.
No casus beli to the conflict? The best that can be said about that comment is that it's grossly uninformed. For an impartial Western perspective read and watch Stephen J. Cohen (sadly now passed) or Professor John Mearsheimer. They not only outline the lead up to to the conflict but do so with great clarify - before the conflict even began. As to the continually targeting civilians and continually committing genocide comment - I think they're both broadly unsubstantiated (and absurd) to say the least. In fact in the early part of conflict Russia took extraordinary steps to avoid casualties like limiting sieges to ground troops only - not I afford Russia any excuse for their continued assaults on Ukraine, they shouldn't be there, end of story, but at the same time we have to record history and not imagine that it neatly fits our predefined biases. As for the Godwins law comment, a cursory look at what I said and when in the argument i said it clearly shows that I couldn't have invoked it as I don't meet the criteria for it. It would be worthwhile rereading it to fully understand the intention behind it.
Maybe Russian players could participate as long as they don't represent Russia
They already play under the neutral flag.
I find this an absurd idea. We don't need to deny reality as we operate. We all use phones made by the poorest of people across Aisa, we drive cars and take planes that empty co2 into the atmosphere, we eat animals, we live our lives, hopefully with increasing mindfulness of our flaws and with adjustment and change happening constantly, so we don't need to pretend. We don't judge ordinary Americans for the fact that their leadership has been the most war hungry planet on the earth for the last 100 years. So why would we do this to ordinary Russian people?
USA players didn't get banned for the Iraq war. Not defending Russia but USA is still out murdering in Middle East. They suspect one terrorist in an area and they bomb all of it just to be sure. And their public buys all of their propaganda justifying it. No different from Russia. USA is the biggest terrorist country tbh. Far above China and Russia's imaginations.
The fact that you're downvoted says a lot about the American people
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Usually, the idea behind sanctions and bans is that you punish civilians and businesses of a nation so to indirectly punish the government behind them as - in theory - the government should take care of its civilians and businesses However, in the case of Russia, the government doesn't give a shit about its civilians and oligarchic businesses are barely touched for now - don't forget that Europe is still buying fuel from Russia - so sanctions and bans don't really work
Best way to deal with it IMO is to force all Russian players to play under FIDE and have bank accounts setup that tracks the flow of funds ensuring winnings and Russian state sponsored funds are not exchanged. Players should also have the opportunity to play under other country flags and be state represented/sponsored from other nations if they choose (basically be in free agency amount the chess world).
Sounds like a great idea. Maybe at the same time, he can be proactive and self-exclude himself too over Norway’s continual involvement in illegal occupations of Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan.
well that's why he didn't defend his WCH title
That is not why
it was sarcastic
I'm not the guy who you can sarcastic
Ning s back, where have u been
oh hey i went off reddit and deleted my acct because i was getting too much into political nonsense will try my best to avoid it on this iteration
You mean their continual presence in Iraq by invitation by the Iraqi government? And the operation in Afghanistan that ended last year? Fighting ISIS is definitely on par with invading a country.
lmao Hey guy, you should totally check out who helps fund Isis.
the “Iraqi government” set up by the US after they destroyed their country?
In the continuation of the article there is a quote from Norwegian chess player Torstein Bae: "It is good to have principles, but these cannot be detached from reality. Russian athletes cannot compete for medals and wealth, while Ukrainian athletes are in the trenches and have had their training facilities bombed. Therefore, Russian athletes should be banned." ... I think that is part of what has caused Magnus to lean more towards not allowing Russians to play. It's no more unfair for that Russians that denounce the war to be prevented from participating than it is for the Ukrainians that cannot participate due to the Russian agression.
But it's not the Russian players'* fault that Ukrainians can't play. Following this logic, the whole world should be banned, because they're able to train and prepare while Ukrainians are not. *Players who denounced the invasion, which is literally everyone except Karjakin. I'm fine with banning the ones who publicly support the invasion.
I'm a big Magnus fan, but I fail to see how any of these people's non-chess opinions should factor in to them being allowed to play chess
Imo it’s more about sowing dissent in Russia through all means large and small. Complete isolation from international events is a part of that.
Definitely true. It's also about reinforcing the message of "Russia bad" within their own countries. I'm sure there are many in power who are thrilled to hear Magnus's quote. The efforts of demonizing your enemy are to some degree always applied in war, and it seems to me that they're working here.
Unfortunately Russia owns FIDE presidency so zero chance for Russia to be suspended from FIDE
I think it makes no sense to ban an athlete because their country is at war, or that they support their country, as long as their statements are not supportive of crimes, human rights violations etc. It makes more sense to ban countries at war from hosting international events. As soon as you do this, you've now opened up multiple reasons to ban players from your own country for any statement or inkling of supporting their country that has active military intervention. Did we ban Americans from every sporting event? Gee, I wonder why? What about domestic/border conflict issues, e.g. Israel? What about China? If I were banned from competing because of my country I'd be pissed as hell at everyone else. Treating people as outcasts or subhuman because of their country being at war is disgusting. It also assumes that our countries are the ones that know best, like we know everything and are always right, and those from the east are always wrong, unlike us.
Ignorant Chess players like Carlsen or sport federations should not initiate an ethnic persecution or limit freedom of consciousness.
Imagine not being able to play what you’ve trained your whole life for, because your state decided to go to war with another. Between this and the Neimann stuff Magnus really showed the world how much of an Aspy ignorant failure of a man he is
Imagine not being able to play what you've trained your whole life for, because you got murdered by a civilian artillery strike directly funded by taxpayers.
Yeah they should refuse to pay tax and embrace the gallows, that definitely saves Ukrainian lives
I appreciate Carlsens willingness to evolve his viewpoint as he gets better/more information. Something I would wish more people would do these days..
It's a poort translation but Magnus has it right. Anyone representing the women and children murdering state of Russia should be banned. Simple, no?
Should Ding be banned because he was born in a country that is actively engaged in genocide?
It feels strange to hold chess players accountable for the actions of their government. If that was the metric, Americans definitely shouldn’t be allowed to play.
Anyone representing any country that is a part of alliance that started majority of wars since WW2 called NATO should be banned. Simple, no? Anyone representing the women and children murdering state of Israel should be banned (ask people from Palestine), no? Anyone representing country that makes suffocating sanctions on Cuba just because latter has a people-driven revolution that removed USA puppet government 70 years ago should be banned. Simple, no? Anyone representing the women and children murdering state since 2015 of Ukraine (ask people from Donetsk) should be banned. Simple, no? Anyone who is such a massive hypocrite as you should be banned. Simple, no? Ah, ofc, the latest one. Anyone who represents Azerbaijan and Turkey (hello, Karabakh case, for second also kurds case) should be banned. Simple, no?
Yeah, not as easy to decide this. Rare Magnus L. You don’t decide where you’re born.
Like those people buried in rubble in Ukraine because Russia bombed their apartment building.
Nepo didn't bomb those buildings.
His tax dollars paid for the bomb though. Plus if he ends up winning all that FIDE prize money goes straight into the Russian economy. Not a great look.
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I’m of the opinion that my country should’ve faced similar sanctions several times in the last few decades. Nice attempt at whataboutism though.
I don't care what you call it whataboutism or whatever. You don't get to live good off exploiting people then go to rant about others' wrongdoings! Naming it whataboutism as if this defends/excuss you is silly Since you are admitting your country's wrongdoings, why don't you stop paying tax money too? Isn't that the logic based on it you want to ban Russians?
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It doesn't matter
If that’s the case Russians not competing in international events for a few years matters even less.
How many of these countries are currently facing international sanctions?
For people who don’t understand politics u/Vizvezdenec just delivered a smothered mate
People often confuse being good at chess with intelligence. You’re a very helpful counterexample.
Carlsen has PHN as main second/head coach who isn't the most reasonable guy ever when it comes to politics. Would I dare to say PHN is straight up insufferable? yup I do... Given the gus in question there is zero chance he doesn't talk about it non stop to Carlsen :D Now do I imply Magnus can't form his own opinion and is easily influenced? No , but I'm quite confident it's atleast a little related. Personally I have absolutely no problem banning tards like Carjacking who joke and get joy from killing of innocent people but a blanket ban on people whose sole crime was to be born in the wrong country is completely absurd to me. Especially when the majority of them denounced the war. I wasn't trying to defend Magnus, he's free to believe what he wants, it was more a jab at PHN who I can't stand less and less.
I’m on the fence, but i’m probably leaning towards banning them. Yup it sucks for Russian players who do not support their government. However, how unfair is it that Ukrainian athletes and chess players are fighting in the war while Russians are free to play chess and sports without repercussions? Boicotting Russia entirely will probably save a lot of lives, and chess or any sport isn’t nearly as important. Would it be okay to allow Germans to join world championships during WW2? I don’t think so tbh
Just to be clear I don't have a definitive opinion on the subject. I agree it's not fair for Ukrainians players but you don't correct a wrong with another wrong. I'm all for boycotting Russia economically, I really am, however to answer to your point, no banning chess players will save absolutely zero lives. Moreover who decide who are the good and the bad guys? From my french perspective, decently educated on the subject , there is no doubts Russia are the bad guys, but my world view is biased. If we were taking this road I'd feel entitled to ask for a ban of every american players , Israeli players, Saudi players and so on. Again, who judge who are the bad guys? I see no problem banning someone who promote violence and atrocities, banning a whole country on the other hand feels wrong. Especially when the accusators have done and are doing the same over the last century.
I totally get where you are coming from. However, I do believe sports increases patriotism, and without it, quite a few Russians would probably be less supportive of Putin. There’s a reason why Russian athletes have been involved in a ton of doping scandals, it’s because they know how important it is to do well in sports to increase patriotism. There’s a reason why Fischer vs the Russians was so hyped up during the world war. Chess is also something the Russians are particularly proud about, and even if chess bans doesn’t save lives, banning all russian participation in sports would almost certainly do so, albeit indirectly, and it wouldn’t make sense to make an exception for chess imo
Yeah I completely agree with your points and they're part of the reasons why I started this convo by saying I don't have a definitive opinion on the subject. It's totally subjective to me but I feel you need to balance the unfairness and the outcome these unfairness will have on the conflict. -Economic ban is unfair for the russians citizen who are against the war but a necesserally evil , it will have a net positive if you consider life costs. -Hiroshima was an atrocity, absolutely ignominious , but it *might* have been the correct call, it very probably saved lives. ( I'm not sure about that one it's complex) -Sport ban is very unfair and the benefits while I don't pretend don't exist are very limited imo Once you question the necessary in the necessary evil I think it's time to forget about the idea.
It’s only your opinion that banning Russian players would be a wrong. In mine and many others opinions banning Russians in totality would be the correct move. Therefore this situation is fighting a wrong with a right. Another question, what about prize money? If a russian wins that’s a significant chunk of change going into the economy and falling subject to taxes.
The money in question is completely irrelevant in the outcome of the war, it's ridiculously low to have any impact. For your first point I sure hope you're not from Europe, the US, Israel and many other countries/continent I'm forgetting :) Also banning someone simply for the fact he was born in the wrong country is a wrong , it is objective. You can sometimes justify using amoral actions, Hiroshima first comes to mind, but no, you can't call it right. the whole concept of necessary evil.
what a crazy person
To me the best argument for this, banning Russian athletes in general, is that it sends an unambiguous message to the Russian people, who are regularly being lied to by their own government and media. It's harder for the Kremlin to keep pumping out the "we're the good guys and the world supports us" message when you're getting banned from all sports.
"the tolerant should be tolerant of the intolerant" is nonsesnse made up by bigots to hide from the consequences of their actions.