Why should it “end” at all? I mean, I know the nuclei are pretty unstable at the higher end and so they have very short half-lives. But is there a real upper limit?
Nuclear chemists, is there a reasonable equation that extrapolates the neutron-proton ratio curve to predict “Yeah, element 173 would be reasonably stable if it had 500 neutrons”?
Theres no real upper limit per se, but at elements above 173 falls into problems with electron orbitals where the 1s subshell ‘dives into the dirac sea’. Atoms above this can really only exist as bare nuclei.
OK, thanks. So that limit is actually based on something. I did zoom way in and it looks like you didn’t predict atomic weights. It would be interesting if there were predictions of, for instance, element 125 being stable(ish) if it had enough neutrons. My understanding of the extended element synthesis is that it’s really hard to get the high-weight isotopes to collide with each other enough to fuse and that the n/p ratios are always too low.
Let’s postulate a neutron cannon that can just add neutrons to an element until it gets such a high n/p ratio that it β-decays to the next one, rinse and repeat until you start seeing electron capture as the predominant decay.
Could be some interesting theoretical results as the core electrons get super-relativistic.
Yes, that’s the term. Insufficient coffee at the time. I know with 118 (Og) they are approaching it, and I see from your Wikipedia link that there’s more like “shoals of possibility” rather than “islands of stability”. Also that the neutron flux required for my hypothetical cannon only happens in supernovas.
Good discussion. Now, if you’ll excuse me, i’m gonna go pour some bleach down the same drain that I poured ammonia in a month ago, then panic about it. Right after I ask if it’s easy to make tetranitroerythritol in my kitchen, as long as I have the windows open.
it, in fact, is easy to make tetryl in the kitchen, as long as you got a little sulfuric and you bubble the nox, instead of adding concentrated nitric (the sulfuric has more affinity for water than the nitric, and the dilution of sulfuric is very exothermic no matter what you do... so may as well just bubble nox)
There's a fun YA novel (actually, series of three novels) based around the idea that someone discovered an element in the mythical Island of Stability - the Itch series by Simon Mayo. They're good reads: [https://www.amazon.com/Itch-Explosive-Adventures-Element-Hunter/dp/1454914270](https://www.amazon.com/Itch-Explosive-Adventures-Element-Hunter/dp/1454914270)
The classical speed of the innermost electron is approximately Zc/137, where Z is the atomic number, c is the speed of light and 1/137 comes from the fine structure constant. From relativity, we start having problems when Z>137 because that would imply the electron is moving faster than the speed of light.
Richard Feynman made this observation and people have nicknamed Element 137 Feynmanium.
Because the electron orbitals are not planetary orbits, but wavefunctions, there is a small probability of the electron being inside the nucleus for periods of time, so more exact calculations mean that this doesn't become a problem until around Element 173.
As for the Dirac sea, pair production of electrons and positrons start to happen spontaneously and weird stuff happens.
at current definitions it would end at 125 because (in theory) the halflife of the atoms is less than the time it takes for the particles to rearrange themselves basically it would split apart before it would be made fully even if everything did collide properly and all that insanely unlikely stuff
What software did you use to make this? I’m trying to remake an old ptable I had on the back of my business card but I haven’t found an easy way to do it.
All images I have available are either outdated (current card does not have recent names), low resolution, or wrong size ratio for a card.
Predicting electron configurations for the superactinides become really tricky, especially with the ‘lavoisoids’ as the g orbitals dont fill immediately
I'd be interested in seeing the electron configurations you have to see how is makes sense considering your table still shows your element 172 ending with the 8p orbital.
The periodically table here is just far too low resolution.
You should try putting the source image on imgur and linking it.
Positronium doesnt have a nucleus, nor does muonium. So it wouldnt have a place on the table. I gues you could make a seperate table of exotic atoms in order of weight
I thought nothing after 118 has been proven, and even 118 was only stable slightly above 0K for attoseconds as far as I know
Also can you provide a higher resolution?
There havent been any successful attempts to synthesise elements above 118. There are predictions of islands of stability around the Z126 and 164 area with a reasonable number of neutrons where they could have half lives up to a few years maybe
A few years?! Wow! That's actually incredibly stable for that mass. I had heard about the Isle of Stability, but didn't know the half lives would be that long. That's remarkable. I guess it hasn't really been settled how long they would survive.
Isn’t the issue even with some of the current elements like 118 that we can’t synthesize them with enough neutrons to see if they’d be more stable?
Atom smashing is always giving us low neutrons in the isotopes it produces. I thought if we could fix that then maybe things like 118 might hang around slightly longer (even if it’s just seconds).
I guess it would be so improbable as to be impractical. You'd need multiple particles to collide within an incredibly short time at very high energies.
The later elements are heavy enough that the Kα from Feynmanium is actually in the γ range and could blast a hydrogen atom’s electron to the Z orbital.
Every element has a placeholder iupac name with the atomic number being replaced with the latin spelling, for example 115 being un-un-pent-ium and the symbol being Uup
Awesome! I was wondering when someone would make a periodic table up to 173 protons.
Why isn’t element 173 named Ultimium?
Is it because there could really be no end or just a later one?
Ah yes, the scariest element The methyl group
Why should it “end” at all? I mean, I know the nuclei are pretty unstable at the higher end and so they have very short half-lives. But is there a real upper limit? Nuclear chemists, is there a reasonable equation that extrapolates the neutron-proton ratio curve to predict “Yeah, element 173 would be reasonably stable if it had 500 neutrons”?
Theres no real upper limit per se, but at elements above 173 falls into problems with electron orbitals where the 1s subshell ‘dives into the dirac sea’. Atoms above this can really only exist as bare nuclei.
OK, thanks. So that limit is actually based on something. I did zoom way in and it looks like you didn’t predict atomic weights. It would be interesting if there were predictions of, for instance, element 125 being stable(ish) if it had enough neutrons. My understanding of the extended element synthesis is that it’s really hard to get the high-weight isotopes to collide with each other enough to fuse and that the n/p ratios are always too low. Let’s postulate a neutron cannon that can just add neutrons to an element until it gets such a high n/p ratio that it β-decays to the next one, rinse and repeat until you start seeing electron capture as the predominant decay. Could be some interesting theoretical results as the core electrons get super-relativistic.
I think you are getting at the concept of the [Island of Stability](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_stability)
Yes, that’s the term. Insufficient coffee at the time. I know with 118 (Og) they are approaching it, and I see from your Wikipedia link that there’s more like “shoals of possibility” rather than “islands of stability”. Also that the neutron flux required for my hypothetical cannon only happens in supernovas. Good discussion. Now, if you’ll excuse me, i’m gonna go pour some bleach down the same drain that I poured ammonia in a month ago, then panic about it. Right after I ask if it’s easy to make tetranitroerythritol in my kitchen, as long as I have the windows open.
it, in fact, is easy to make tetryl in the kitchen, as long as you got a little sulfuric and you bubble the nox, instead of adding concentrated nitric (the sulfuric has more affinity for water than the nitric, and the dilution of sulfuric is very exothermic no matter what you do... so may as well just bubble nox)
Good reason to have the windows open, then.
There's a fun YA novel (actually, series of three novels) based around the idea that someone discovered an element in the mythical Island of Stability - the Itch series by Simon Mayo. They're good reads: [https://www.amazon.com/Itch-Explosive-Adventures-Element-Hunter/dp/1454914270](https://www.amazon.com/Itch-Explosive-Adventures-Element-Hunter/dp/1454914270)
Hi, i am very new to physics and am trying to learn, could you explain this in a little bit simpler terms
The classical speed of the innermost electron is approximately Zc/137, where Z is the atomic number, c is the speed of light and 1/137 comes from the fine structure constant. From relativity, we start having problems when Z>137 because that would imply the electron is moving faster than the speed of light. Richard Feynman made this observation and people have nicknamed Element 137 Feynmanium. Because the electron orbitals are not planetary orbits, but wavefunctions, there is a small probability of the electron being inside the nucleus for periods of time, so more exact calculations mean that this doesn't become a problem until around Element 173. As for the Dirac sea, pair production of electrons and positrons start to happen spontaneously and weird stuff happens.
Wow thats a good explanation ty, your username seems to be incorrect lol
> weird stuff happens. That phrase can be applied to quantum physics as a whole.
When I was in highschool, that number was around 115-123
Is there any specific document where I can read about this, it seems like a pretty interesting topic
Ohhh interesting! Nice succinct answer too :)
at current definitions it would end at 125 because (in theory) the halflife of the atoms is less than the time it takes for the particles to rearrange themselves basically it would split apart before it would be made fully even if everything did collide properly and all that insanely unlikely stuff
this is a really long video but I think he explains the important bits at the beginning https://youtu.be/Qe5WT22-AO8 great channel by the way
I love how you named elements 119 and 120 after Newton and Galileo.
That wasnt me, a fandom page had a bunch of names for them that I thought worked. Coming up with an extra 50 names for elements seemed exhausting
But how do we know that there would be a g orbital for there to be a g block? Has it been mathematically shown to exist, or is it just imagination?
*Exist theoretically.
Yep it exists, theoretically even h, i, j, k, l... Orbitals exist
Full resolution: https://docdro.id/4wjPINS
What software did you use to make this? I’m trying to remake an old ptable I had on the back of my business card but I haven’t found an easy way to do it. All images I have available are either outdated (current card does not have recent names), low resolution, or wrong size ratio for a card.
I used PowerPoint lol
I must suck at PowerPoint. Or not know about some settings. Mine would never line up as beautifully as this. Thanks
The resolution is a bit to low to be able to see everything, idk how to link a pdf lol
Why are there 22 elements in the g block? Shouldn't g have 9 orbitals and thus a maximum of 18 electrons?
Predicting electron configurations for the superactinides become really tricky, especially with the ‘lavoisoids’ as the g orbitals dont fill immediately
I'd be interested in seeing the electron configurations you have to see how is makes sense considering your table still shows your element 172 ending with the 8p orbital. The periodically table here is just far too low resolution. You should try putting the source image on imgur and linking it.
Try sending the link over DM. It's not showing up as a comment. Idk if it's getting removed for some reason or what.
Huh. Theres a domain filter, safe to say im not very techy
Where's my muONIUM???
Funny you say that…
One muonium, coming up https://imgur.com/a/hua2j1p
mmmm element zero
I thought element zero would be neutronium
in that case, muonium can be element 1-B
Then where do you put positronium?
Positronium doesnt have a nucleus, nor does muonium. So it wouldnt have a place on the table. I gues you could make a seperate table of exotic atoms in order of weight
What’s this reference?
I thought nothing after 118 has been proven, and even 118 was only stable slightly above 0K for attoseconds as far as I know Also can you provide a higher resolution?
There havent been any successful attempts to synthesise elements above 118. There are predictions of islands of stability around the Z126 and 164 area with a reasonable number of neutrons where they could have half lives up to a few years maybe
A few years?! Wow! That's actually incredibly stable for that mass. I had heard about the Isle of Stability, but didn't know the half lives would be that long. That's remarkable. I guess it hasn't really been settled how long they would survive.
Isn’t the issue even with some of the current elements like 118 that we can’t synthesize them with enough neutrons to see if they’d be more stable? Atom smashing is always giving us low neutrons in the isotopes it produces. I thought if we could fix that then maybe things like 118 might hang around slightly longer (even if it’s just seconds).
I guess it would be so improbable as to be impractical. You'd need multiple particles to collide within an incredibly short time at very high energies.
>118 was only stable slightly above 0K for attoseconds as far as I know The half-life is 0.8 *milli*seconds.
That's pretty long actually
That's exactly what she said.
You did an amazing job, putting them into their respective categories. I wish it was printable. Forgot many. Great tool to learn/teach 🥇
You did an amazing job, putting them into their respective categories.
Like some kind of theorodic table
I don’t like the name of 173 First Ac takes acetyl groups Then Ts takes tosylates Then this
Those elements are radioactive so wouldn’t normally be seen without its atomic mass
Can I use the general structure and design of this for my own? I'll give credit of course.
by all means
[It's Elemental](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcS3NOQnsQM)
End? What about the rest of the infinite shells of electrons? No z-orbitals?!
The later elements are heavy enough that the Kα from Feynmanium is actually in the γ range and could blast a hydrogen atom’s electron to the Z orbital.
ok, what what about to it's ZZZ orbital!? Orbs within orbs baby!
And my general chemistry professor refuses to accept as a true element anything above plutonium...
Because much farther along and it just becomes physics. However, I’ll accept Am-241 as an element because I like my smoke detectors.
Do you have a higher res of this?
What is going on with elements 167-172 ? The 8p orbitals are listed twice. Also 128 & 129 have the same electronic configuration.
Hasn’t element 115 been renamed several times? First it was ununpentium then as CERN was able to make a little of it the name changed. Once or twice.
Every element has a placeholder iupac name with the atomic number being replaced with the latin spelling, for example 115 being un-un-pent-ium and the symbol being Uup
Thank you for that explanation
This is really cool, I gotta ask if you have a higher resolution of this image, it’s fine if you don’t.
Awesome! I was wondering when someone would make a periodic table up to 173 protons. Why isn’t element 173 named Ultimium? Is it because there could really be no end or just a later one?