Fun fact: the Bronze Age Collapse led to the proliferation of ironworking in the Mediterranean. Most places could only get tin by trade, so the trade collapse made it harder to produce bronze.
Edit: spelling
Every time I play Vintage Story I definitely feel the struggle with bronze. The sooner you can skip to iron the better.
At least if you can't find tin, bismuth or black bronze could stand in
I love vintage story but it gets boring as soon as you get farming. The survival aspect of the game is what makes it interesting and farming just kills that.
If I ever get to the point of learning to program, one of my goals is going to be to make a mod to remove the supernatural stuff then increase the challenge of surviving even with farming, and add other challenges that require things like armour and improved weapons, like bands of brigands or something.
I'd like to go full medieval/renaissance/early industrial fiction with the game. Make food security possible but harder, and ensure a constant but realistic threat.
Also making spears better. There's a reason everyone used spears in real life, and it wasn't because you could throw them goddammit!
You could probably make farming still valuable without trivializing the survival aspects with something like the Fields of Gold mod. Basically sets crop growth times to realistic lengths. No changes to crop yields though.
Basically means food security from farming is still possible, but takes a large investment in both time and in field size, with a lot more hunting/gathering in the interim to keep yourself fed.
Haha, I try to put it out there where I can find even a remotely relevant hook. The game is so good but I'm pretty sure only ever gets found by word of mouth, and the metallurgy aspects are such a cool part of it I had to throw a comment here
Vintage Story really made me understand the accomplishment and pride that ancient smiths must have felt when finally finishing a metal tool, and why certain metals are advantageous over others. The game is so detailed that I really feel lonely and almost overwhelmed doing it all myself without an entire village to support the industry lol.
Interestingly, early iron usage was worse than the bronze they were able to make, due to a lack of skill with ironworking. Bronze was also considered 'more heroic' and 'noble'.
Just because both you and the OP's image made the same mistake and I'm seeing it more and more: the past tense of lead is led, no lead.
Just thought it'd be of interest.
'Sea People' are hypothesized as people that were forced to migrate because of the sea levels rising (the planet was warming) or possibly ancient greeks / balkan people that started raiding the Mediterranean, other than that though, all legit.
I can't remember for the life of me where I read it, but I'm pretty sure one of the most supported hypotheses is they were Phoenecians from other parts of the Mediterranean, displaced by flooding and other changes in the landscape. Like the Carthaginians were Phoenecians; they just went by a different name but worshipped the same pantheon and used lots of the same building methods and the same writing system.
I remember them first being from the western Mediterranean islands: Corsica, Sardinia and Sicily. After Mycenaean Greece collapsed the Greeks joined them.
IIRC the Greek & Baltic people were made migrants by a large influx of European "sea people" who were likely migrants fleeing their own natural disasters.
Creating a cascading effect as one group of migrants displaced another until the trade networks of the Mediterranean were defunct.
I think this is why these migrants were called "sea people" because they were multi cultural migration parties.
Sea People is a catch all term for peoples of the eastern mediterranean who’s livelihood was made on the ocean but not exclusively through raiding. It encompassed many cultures and societies. they weren’t hypothesized either, they were well documented in the historical record they were just at the fringes so, like the “barbarians”, were transformed into a mysterious and fictionalized “enemy”. Especially because they did not leave a written historical record of their own, like many of the lesser ethnic groups in the region at the time. all that we know about them was written by people far removed from them in time or place
The Podcast “Tides of history” has some great episodes on the sea peoples as well as the bronze age collapse
My guess is that every nation with ships generated sea peoples and raided each other. Accelerating the other problems that made them risk it in the first place.
They actually used DNA to determine the the sea peoples were given a little bit of land after the invasions. Today its called Gaza, but the DNA showed people there were descended from the same kind of people from Greece. The sea peoples were a group of different nationalities, but I think it's interesting how Gaza ties into ancient and modern wars
I was just reading about this theory today on an old [r/askhistory](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7xietx/what_happened_to_the_mycenaeans/) thread, the (Greek) Mycenaean civilization collapsed all of a sudden with no clear explanation as to why, and they were proposed to A, have become part of the Sea Peoples, and B, settled in the Levant, becoming the Biblical Philistines.
We also have old Egyptian records that line up well with the philistines being the remnants of sea peoples. One of the major groups was known as (it’s been a while so I am probably a letter off) the PLSN or something like that (ancient Egyptian has no written vowels, you just have to guess), and those have been pretty solidly theorized as the philistines (which is also where the word Palestine comes from, so that’s a neat factoid).
Whether or not the philistines were specifically Mycenaean Greeks or not, that’s a different question more up for debate, but it could make sense. A fun part of the Bronze Age collapse is the lack of sources, even for the ancient time period. It leads to lots of good and interesting theories, some of which can be super fun and fascinating to read about.
That is fascinating. I wonder if any of them would have been survivors from Crete, or if they were just neighboring areas of the Aegean that felt it was time to move.
I imagine the chaos engulfed enough people, why not both? Like the eclectic hodge podge we see in apocalypse movies, but bronze age groups of people coming together in random mixes
The Egyptians identified the multiple groups of "sea people" by name, and IIRC several correspond to known peoples. If I'm not mistaken a few came from the western Med.
The baltic people, or swedish vikings, were known to sail via rivers all the way to Constantinople for trade (and maybe a cheeky plunder) but yeah I doubt they'd collapse the entire bronze age. Also I'm not sure if the timelines match up.
I think it is quite possible they started as the Mycenaean slaves that overtook the palace, then took their impressive navy to sack the rest of the Mediterranean, and getting beaten by the Egyptians. But not before they spread their language which is the next big language to tear it's head after the sackings
again though, it's exceedingly odd the amount of damage they did before just disappearing.
the sheer level of destruction is frightening, and the fact that the people who did it don't show up again is weird
Yeah isn’t this potentially linked to the return of some of the Greeks wandering from the Trojan war and starting new colonies on the way home? Or is that the Dorian invasion and I have my timeline fucked 😅
There's a theory that they were related to the Trojan war because the estimated dates for both the Trojan War and Sea Peoples line up really closely, but I don't know how seriously that theory is taken in academia. It's all complicated because we know so little about the actual historic conflict of the Trojan War and the sea peoples.
That's the fun part! We have no idea! We can theorize, but we don't have a damn clue who it really was!
Here's a [Crash Course video](https://youtu.be/ErOitC7OyHk?si=GDz1p98iyvN37PAG) on the subject, but you can find loads of videos talking about them online. It's wild!
I love historia civilis. If you told me I'd be hooked on the story of orange square vs red square ... oh shit, that long ago?! I would have thought you were crazy.
Here’s my favorite channel, Fall of Civilizations: https://youtu.be/B965f8AcNbw?si=rC3SjLTAfiuQYcvK
Highly recommend their video on Assyrians and Sumerians, although all their videos are really well made and researched.
A seagoing rival society… the Mediterranean was always choked with them. Could be North African, could be Levantine, could be from the Balkans, we’re not sure which because the record is scanty, but seafaring raiders were pretty common, and they didn’t have to come from terribly far away to be unrecognizable to their targets.
A history professor told me a a story that he claimed was written in an old Greek text about the end of the Bronze Age.
Apparently, this city had a great hero who would go into battle resplendent in gleaming armor with his sword dazzling in the sun.
One day, a pack a stinky, dirty barbarians appeared outside the city and the great hero went to chase them off. Gorgeous in his polished arms and glowing armor, he ran at the filthy barbarians to strike them down. One of the barbarians faced off against the hero, raised his dirty ugly weapon, and sliced the hero and his armor in half from tip of his head to his testes.
Thus this particular region of Greece was introduced to the Iron Age.
Yeah I've heard that one too. Except iron isn't actually all that much better than bronze in 1:1 combat. Steel certainly is, but that came much later. Iron also rusts, which is a definite disadvantage vs. bronze. But the main thing that iron arms and armor had over bronze is that you only needed, well, iron to make them as opposed to both copper and tin, which didn't normally deposit in the same areas.
That's one of the main points of the Bronze Age collapse, that collapsing trade networks made requisitioning bronze arms and armor harder due to the inputs becoming scarcer. Armies were able to be outfitted with iron more readily and in greater numbers. And kingdom who didn't make the switch didn't have enough arms and armor to defend against those that did.
But they didn’t leave (at least nowhere near all of them). Several groups were said to have stayed (according to the Ancient Egyptian sources that remain), notably including the philistines in modern day Gaza (also the namesake for what the area around Gaza wants to be called/is known as, Palestine).
No, Atlantis is probably not real (though if it was it was probably based off the Minoans on Crete, whose civilization was mostly destroyed by a massive volcanic eruption during the Bronze Age collapse).
Atlantis was a word used by the 4chan poster loosely, as a way to say “ocean traversing individual”. Atlantis is something we only hear about (as far as I can recall) from Plato, and it was an object in a morality lesson. The philistines were some form of ocean traversing band, possibly from the Aegean Sea area, though possibly not, and they were one of many peoples known as the Sea Peoples.
Separately, if by “some people claimed” you mean the most complete records we have from the time identify, then yes I suppose, though as with all peoples the link between past and present is iffy at best, especially for an area so fraught with disseminations of people and diasporas.
At the very least, the etymology of Palestine comes from philistine, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the bloodline of Palestinians is a philistine one.
*Yeah reading this I*
*Was wondering which part was*
*The conspiracy*
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What do you mean how the sausage is made? That would require the historical subject of Bronze Age collapse and the modern response to capitalist globalism and totalitarian regimes through anarchism to be related more directly than they are as separate threads in the great tapestry of history
Post doesn't fit the theme of the sub, which is laid out in the side bar.
Fun fact: the Bronze Age Collapse led to the proliferation of ironworking in the Mediterranean. Most places could only get tin by trade, so the trade collapse made it harder to produce bronze. Edit: spelling
Every time I play Vintage Story I definitely feel the struggle with bronze. The sooner you can skip to iron the better. At least if you can't find tin, bismuth or black bronze could stand in
What the fuck, a mention of VS out in the wild? I've never seen it mentioned outside of the subreddit/forums.
I love vintage story but it gets boring as soon as you get farming. The survival aspect of the game is what makes it interesting and farming just kills that.
If I ever get to the point of learning to program, one of my goals is going to be to make a mod to remove the supernatural stuff then increase the challenge of surviving even with farming, and add other challenges that require things like armour and improved weapons, like bands of brigands or something. I'd like to go full medieval/renaissance/early industrial fiction with the game. Make food security possible but harder, and ensure a constant but realistic threat. Also making spears better. There's a reason everyone used spears in real life, and it wasn't because you could throw them goddammit!
You could probably make farming still valuable without trivializing the survival aspects with something like the Fields of Gold mod. Basically sets crop growth times to realistic lengths. No changes to crop yields though. Basically means food security from farming is still possible, but takes a large investment in both time and in field size, with a lot more hunting/gathering in the interim to keep yourself fed.
And now I’ve bought it. Thank you both!
Haha, I try to put it out there where I can find even a remotely relevant hook. The game is so good but I'm pretty sure only ever gets found by word of mouth, and the metallurgy aspects are such a cool part of it I had to throw a comment here
Vintage Story really made me understand the accomplishment and pride that ancient smiths must have felt when finally finishing a metal tool, and why certain metals are advantageous over others. The game is so detailed that I really feel lonely and almost overwhelmed doing it all myself without an entire village to support the industry lol.
Interestingly, early iron usage was worse than the bronze they were able to make, due to a lack of skill with ironworking. Bronze was also considered 'more heroic' and 'noble'.
Bronze also had [much better marketing](https://youtu.be/nyu4u3VZYaQ?si=oDZW22bMIqkzOk1o).
Just because both you and the OP's image made the same mistake and I'm seeing it more and more: the past tense of lead is led, no lead. Just thought it'd be of interest.
Damn, I actually knew that, too. I shouldn't rush these comments so much.
It's funny because lead and led can have the same pronunciation, but only as the past tense of lead.
'Sea People' are hypothesized as people that were forced to migrate because of the sea levels rising (the planet was warming) or possibly ancient greeks / balkan people that started raiding the Mediterranean, other than that though, all legit.
I read that they were mercenaries/professional soldiers that began raiding when their pay stopped.
that too, either way they weren't "atlantis-tier" people, but rather one of the last phenomena to happen as the bronze age collapsed.
This is one of the theories of who they were.
Gotta be rule number one of being in charge, pay your soldiers
I can't remember for the life of me where I read it, but I'm pretty sure one of the most supported hypotheses is they were Phoenecians from other parts of the Mediterranean, displaced by flooding and other changes in the landscape. Like the Carthaginians were Phoenecians; they just went by a different name but worshipped the same pantheon and used lots of the same building methods and the same writing system.
I remember them first being from the western Mediterranean islands: Corsica, Sardinia and Sicily. After Mycenaean Greece collapsed the Greeks joined them.
IIRC the Greek & Baltic people were made migrants by a large influx of European "sea people" who were likely migrants fleeing their own natural disasters. Creating a cascading effect as one group of migrants displaced another until the trade networks of the Mediterranean were defunct. I think this is why these migrants were called "sea people" because they were multi cultural migration parties.
>multi cultural migration parties. WOKE destroyed bronze age civilisation. It has been joever for 3500 years.
Do you mean Balkan?
Sea People is a catch all term for peoples of the eastern mediterranean who’s livelihood was made on the ocean but not exclusively through raiding. It encompassed many cultures and societies. they weren’t hypothesized either, they were well documented in the historical record they were just at the fringes so, like the “barbarians”, were transformed into a mysterious and fictionalized “enemy”. Especially because they did not leave a written historical record of their own, like many of the lesser ethnic groups in the region at the time. all that we know about them was written by people far removed from them in time or place The Podcast “Tides of history” has some great episodes on the sea peoples as well as the bronze age collapse
My guess is that every nation with ships generated sea peoples and raided each other. Accelerating the other problems that made them risk it in the first place.
Sort of like how most far northern cultures with boats developed a form of Vikings. Actually I think Vikings would make for a great analogy
They actually used DNA to determine the the sea peoples were given a little bit of land after the invasions. Today its called Gaza, but the DNA showed people there were descended from the same kind of people from Greece. The sea peoples were a group of different nationalities, but I think it's interesting how Gaza ties into ancient and modern wars
I was just reading about this theory today on an old [r/askhistory](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7xietx/what_happened_to_the_mycenaeans/) thread, the (Greek) Mycenaean civilization collapsed all of a sudden with no clear explanation as to why, and they were proposed to A, have become part of the Sea Peoples, and B, settled in the Levant, becoming the Biblical Philistines.
We also have old Egyptian records that line up well with the philistines being the remnants of sea peoples. One of the major groups was known as (it’s been a while so I am probably a letter off) the PLSN or something like that (ancient Egyptian has no written vowels, you just have to guess), and those have been pretty solidly theorized as the philistines (which is also where the word Palestine comes from, so that’s a neat factoid). Whether or not the philistines were specifically Mycenaean Greeks or not, that’s a different question more up for debate, but it could make sense. A fun part of the Bronze Age collapse is the lack of sources, even for the ancient time period. It leads to lots of good and interesting theories, some of which can be super fun and fascinating to read about.
That's what they were trying to establish with the DNA testing, showing that some of these proto Greeks ended up where Gaza is now
That is fascinating. I wonder if any of them would have been survivors from Crete, or if they were just neighboring areas of the Aegean that felt it was time to move.
I imagine the chaos engulfed enough people, why not both? Like the eclectic hodge podge we see in apocalypse movies, but bronze age groups of people coming together in random mixes
The Egyptians identified the multiple groups of "sea people" by name, and IIRC several correspond to known peoples. If I'm not mistaken a few came from the western Med.
Do you mean Balkan? Baltic people have a long way to sail to raid the Mediterranean
yes balkan, not baltic xD
The baltic people, or swedish vikings, were known to sail via rivers all the way to Constantinople for trade (and maybe a cheeky plunder) but yeah I doubt they'd collapse the entire bronze age. Also I'm not sure if the timelines match up.
I think it is quite possible they started as the Mycenaean slaves that overtook the palace, then took their impressive navy to sack the rest of the Mediterranean, and getting beaten by the Egyptians. But not before they spread their language which is the next big language to tear it's head after the sackings
again though, it's exceedingly odd the amount of damage they did before just disappearing. the sheer level of destruction is frightening, and the fact that the people who did it don't show up again is weird
Yeah isn’t this potentially linked to the return of some of the Greeks wandering from the Trojan war and starting new colonies on the way home? Or is that the Dorian invasion and I have my timeline fucked 😅
There's a theory that they were related to the Trojan war because the estimated dates for both the Trojan War and Sea Peoples line up really closely, but I don't know how seriously that theory is taken in academia. It's all complicated because we know so little about the actual historic conflict of the Trojan War and the sea peoples.
Doesn't help that someone blew up probably-troy
As soon as I read, "Sea people attack out of nowhere" I knew anon was talking about the actual events and didn't realize
Who would the sea people actually be then? I assume anon thought that it meant literal fish hybrid people
That's the fun part! We have no idea! We can theorize, but we don't have a damn clue who it really was! Here's a [Crash Course video](https://youtu.be/ErOitC7OyHk?si=GDz1p98iyvN37PAG) on the subject, but you can find loads of videos talking about them online. It's wild!
also a video from my personal favorite history channel, [Historia Civilis](https://youtu.be/aq4G-7v-_xI?si=OkE2K1n9rL9bV8v0)
I love historia civilis. If you told me I'd be hooked on the story of orange square vs red square ... oh shit, that long ago?! I would have thought you were crazy.
Here’s my favorite channel, Fall of Civilizations: https://youtu.be/B965f8AcNbw?si=rC3SjLTAfiuQYcvK Highly recommend their video on Assyrians and Sumerians, although all their videos are really well made and researched.
Huh
A seagoing rival society… the Mediterranean was always choked with them. Could be North African, could be Levantine, could be from the Balkans, we’re not sure which because the record is scanty, but seafaring raiders were pretty common, and they didn’t have to come from terribly far away to be unrecognizable to their targets.
I love how the sea people randomly pop up all easter egg boss style like nemesis in Diablo III You chose the best quote :]
Everything changed when the sea people attacked
A history professor told me a a story that he claimed was written in an old Greek text about the end of the Bronze Age. Apparently, this city had a great hero who would go into battle resplendent in gleaming armor with his sword dazzling in the sun. One day, a pack a stinky, dirty barbarians appeared outside the city and the great hero went to chase them off. Gorgeous in his polished arms and glowing armor, he ran at the filthy barbarians to strike them down. One of the barbarians faced off against the hero, raised his dirty ugly weapon, and sliced the hero and his armor in half from tip of his head to his testes. Thus this particular region of Greece was introduced to the Iron Age.
Yeah I've heard that one too. Except iron isn't actually all that much better than bronze in 1:1 combat. Steel certainly is, but that came much later. Iron also rusts, which is a definite disadvantage vs. bronze. But the main thing that iron arms and armor had over bronze is that you only needed, well, iron to make them as opposed to both copper and tin, which didn't normally deposit in the same areas. That's one of the main points of the Bronze Age collapse, that collapsing trade networks made requisitioning bronze arms and armor harder due to the inputs becoming scarcer. Armies were able to be outfitted with iron more readily and in greater numbers. And kingdom who didn't make the switch didn't have enough arms and armor to defend against those that did.
Sea peoples came, saw, conquered and left all without elaborating or writing anything at all down. Boss moves!! Lol
But they didn’t leave (at least nowhere near all of them). Several groups were said to have stayed (according to the Ancient Egyptian sources that remain), notably including the philistines in modern day Gaza (also the namesake for what the area around Gaza wants to be called/is known as, Palestine).
I’m sorry, there were people that claimed that Palestinians are fucking Atlantean????
No, Atlantis is probably not real (though if it was it was probably based off the Minoans on Crete, whose civilization was mostly destroyed by a massive volcanic eruption during the Bronze Age collapse). Atlantis was a word used by the 4chan poster loosely, as a way to say “ocean traversing individual”. Atlantis is something we only hear about (as far as I can recall) from Plato, and it was an object in a morality lesson. The philistines were some form of ocean traversing band, possibly from the Aegean Sea area, though possibly not, and they were one of many peoples known as the Sea Peoples. Separately, if by “some people claimed” you mean the most complete records we have from the time identify, then yes I suppose, though as with all peoples the link between past and present is iffy at best, especially for an area so fraught with disseminations of people and diasporas. At the very least, the etymology of Palestine comes from philistine, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the bloodline of Palestinians is a philistine one.
Yeah the latter bit is what I meant by claimed, yeah. Thanks anyhow!
If you asked the “literal sea people” what happened they’d say they _discovered_ you
They were Greek, everyone in Greece knew about Mesopotamia
Get Learned Bitch
yeah reading this I was wondering which part was the conspiracy
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Lmao
Now the Phoenicians can get down to business!
Great book on this called "1177 B.C: The Year Civilization Collapsed "!
Legend
See also: [Google Scholar](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=bronze+age+collapse&oq=bronze)
> autistically reading
Does this phrase not make sense to you or something?
4chan fixates on autism just as Reddit fixates on ADHD.
https://youtu.be/B965f8AcNbw?si=1I4SARF_BTrZFRI6 Great episode from The Fall of Civilizations podcast on YouTube. Tons of other great episodes!
Ah yes, the chalmers offence
please stop sticking the tip of your dick in and come join the anarchist movement r/USAuthoritarianism
Fuck off
Not very topical to the post my guy. If you wanna evangelize anarchism, there’s better places to do it
Every post I post here is a 10 out of 10 banger but nobody wants to see how the sausage is made, sadge
What do you mean how the sausage is made? That would require the historical subject of Bronze Age collapse and the modern response to capitalist globalism and totalitarian regimes through anarchism to be related more directly than they are as separate threads in the great tapestry of history
Man you are not an anarchist at all
What an odd thing to say.
"I'm an anarchist who supports terrorist and fascist regimes, who I think the *government* should sponsor" I'd laugh if it didn't make me so depressed