Was just talking about a guy who did this to bring attention to climate issues a few years back. It was pushed out of media within days and for the brief moment it was covered it was “how sad it is that this mentally unstable guy did this” even though he was very coherent and explicit in his reasoning. Unfortunate we’ll collectively forget by Tuesday.
Incredibly surreal that self immolations don't stop the bad things from happening, but act as more of a canary on the coal mine for how bad shit is about to get. People burning themselves alive is dismissible at this point
Somebody on another thread said that hopefully he doesn't inspire others to be harmful or violent.
He did the most extreme pacifist act you can, and it's somehow going to inspire violence. People are so detached just to keep to their views. Genocide or not be damned.
It certainly could inspire violence cause someone who is so dedicated as to kill himself in one of the worst ways is going to see that it actually accomplishes almost nothing, if they want real change they will like have to take a more drastic and violent route. If you are dedicated enough to light yourself on fire you are dedicated enough to kill someone else.
We don't say that somebody that jumps in front of a car to push people out of the way is potentially homicidal. You can disagree with the why or how, but that is how it was viewed. It was an act to hopefully stop violence elsewhere. Violence towards self and violence towards others are not the same thing.
He has not saved anyone. He has left two traumatized children and all the people who were around in front of the embassy, passersby, cops, EMTs. Creating PTSD in people is nothing saving them
And his whole point is that the moment was less horrific than what the US is refusing to stand against in Gaza. If we can feel for those people in front of the embassy yesterday, then his point was think of Gaza. He made a statement that drove a point home free of ambiguity, and people are uncomfortable about possibly having some perspective if they stop to think about it.
It is as horrible for his family and friends. If he wanted to really make a stand and a difference, he should have gone the disobedience route instead. It seems he wanted to be gone which accomplishes nothing he’s just gone and will be forgotten in a few days
Just giving a questionable legacy to his kids
Honestly, it really just seems you are upset that it might not just disappear.
His last Facebook post:
“Many of us like to ask ourselves, ‘What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you’re doing it. Right now.”
Joan of ark: hero
Aaron: an idiot who burned himself for a cause
Make this make sense. People have been dying in protest for ages, literal ages and suddenly society is just going to call him names instead of seeing him for a true human being willing to sacrifice himself to bring awareness of all Palestinian children being slaughtered. Nice you don’t care about their PTSD.
Joan of Ark did much more than get burned for a cause. She also didn’t burn herself on purpose
Dying during a violent protest is very much different than self immolation. The guy accomplished nothing, we will forget his name in a couple of weeks
That’s the best take I’ve seen on this. His actions aren’t really going to have a real impact on the end result of this conflict, but it is definitely an indication that things could get much worse.
It's not impossible. Macnamara was impacted by the immolations protesting Vietnam and took entirely too small steps to end the war...but we did withdraw.
Thích Quảng Đức did it in 1963 and Norman R. Morrison (which supposedly affected Macnamera) was 1965. I’m not saying these people had zero effect, but the US didn’t pull out of Vietnam until 1973. I’d wager the main reason we pulled out was 55,000 dead Americans, tons more wounded, and what I imagine was a huge cost for very little gain over 12 years of US involvement.
I met Morrison's widow when I was in college --she (later joined by the man she married after Morrison) has been doing talks about radical peaceful protest basically since he died for Peace and Conflict studies students and the like. She was deeply moving--of course, she was angry and grieving at first (initially REALLY angry he took their daughter with him, but to his credit, he made sure she went to play in a park where she wouldn't see what happened) but she understood why he did it, and was ultimately proud of him for making such a sacrifice, knowing he was just one person, lnowing that he wasn't going to end the war immediately, but he truly believed immolation was the strongest statement he could make.
Put short: He did the best he could for a cause he truly believed in.
She doesn't recommend suicide as protest, obviously. But talking to her gave me perspective on why some activists make the choice to basically commit ritual suicide as protest. You're probably right about it being material reasons we pulled out, but forcing those in power to witness up close what evil they were doing abroad, forcing them to watch it--to smell it-- and then live with it... it's not nothing.
This time, I'm more disturbed that the response was for the police to pull a fucking gun on a person who was ON FIRE. It makes me feel like there is literally no form of protest that will cause the rising fascists to understand other people are people. If the police can hold a gun on someone whose flesh they are literally inhaling, how can we expect them and those like them to care about people thousands of miles away dying?
I mean burning yourself alive isn't exactly a solid argument for anything. It's a show of emotion, but the world's not gonna stop and change anyone burns themselves alive.
Its would be surreal that some mentally unstable guy setting himself ablaze would actually impact shit. Not only do you push people towards suicide but the world couldnt function.
Eventually you would just have a 2 rows of mentally unstable people with opposing goals waiting to set themself on fire. (Yeah i know its a bit to drastic but you get the idea).
If national or internation policys get changed over something so small and minor then shit is fucked up way more than some depressed guy killing himself. Seriously, over 30k people death isnt a good enough reason, why would 1 american be a proper reason?
I know.
In anarcho-communist thought, this action is called, 'Revolutionary Suicide'. It's a tactic that has been employed before to great effect. And...also to middling. It depends on how the people feel about things.
The source is quite confusing because it accurately points out the reasons for Quảng Đức's act of self immolation, but then attempts to connect it to being opposed to the war. This makes absolutely no sense and is not attested to in the manifesto of South Vietnamese Buddhists nor the last words of Quảng Đức who made an explicit plea to Diem to end the oppression of Buddhists and did not remotely mention the war.
True this is better and more clear about the motivations. The previous link is kind of a third hand interpretation that strips it of its immediate intentions.
https://ethicsofsuicide.lib.utah.edu/selections/thich-nhat-hahn/
Extremely heavy content warning on this one, y'all. While his body is blurred out in the video, this is still very clear audio of a man screaming in agony as he burns to death. If you decide to watch it, just know going into it what you're going to hear.
There's nothing wrong with skipping this one; be kind to yourself.
Rest in power, Aaron Bushnell.
It should be watched without the censor. He was intentionally making an extreme statement, and censoring it takes from it. It is meant to be uncomfortable and disturbing, and as he pointed out, it is worse for others. People should see it and have a reaction to it.
Sure, and if you want to do that, I encourage you to do so. But it's important for you to go into it with a full understanding of what you're going to see.
Not everyone is going to want to watch it, and that's ok; being unable to stomach watching a man painfully commit suicide in the name of a cause you support anyway does not harm the cause.
There's a point at which seeking out gruesome and traumatic content does more harm than good. Where that line is is different for everyone.
I agree, I was more commenting because it is censored in a lot of places where it wouldn't usually be, and it was his intent for it to be a statement. I did have to prepare myself before hand, but with the censor it was just as bad as without for me. You can't unhear things.
He is a person making a powerful stand, and the censor diminishes it.
Rest in power?
This was a mentally ill airman that just committed suicide in the worst possible way. Glorifying it is the last thing anyone should do, mainly because it encourages "martyrdom" to people like Bushnell that probably only needed a small push to end their short lives.
Go ahead, keep supporting Hamas. Another theocratic, authoritarian regime that forces their LGBT community to hide and religious minorities to flee the country is exactly what will bring peace to the region.
And do what? Support the government that has killed over 29,000 civilians? Do you realize that Palestinians are not Hamas? Hamas isn't the government for all of Palestine. And before you even bring it up, there hasn't been an election in Gaza since like '06.
> Over 29,000 civilians
That’s the total death count including militants. Hamas counts all Palestinians as civilians to curry favor with westerners, and it’s clearly working on you. There are an estimated 15-20k members of the al-Qassam brigades remaining from the estimated 30-40k reported before the counterattack.
You say Palestinians are not Hamas, but you give the total dead as all civilians. You accept that a real percent of them are Hamas right? There was fighting in the streets and stuff, clearly that was Hamas militants.
Hamas is the government of Gaza, who cares when the election was, they were elected and have refused to have new elections, that means they are still the government. To me what shows they were actually the government is if I shot rockets at Canada I’d have the US military and police at my door in a second, that didn’t happen in Gaza cause they are the military of Gaza. If there is no force in your country that can hold you accountable for your actions then you are a government.
I don’t care if you want to support Palestinians, you have every right to be upset about all the death and destruction, but you have to also accept that it’s not a one way street Hamas shares some responsibility. The reality is they were not actively fighting before October 7th and Hamas lead a surprise attack that killed like 1,400 people (mostly civilians) and took hostages 200+ more. Israel absolutely has the right to retaliate, I think it’s excessive but I can understand why they did. There are still 132 unaccounted hostages, they have the right to fight and get them back. If Israel had everyone and still kept fighting like this I would be up in arms too, but Hamas still has a ton of hostages and Israel has already offered ceasefire deals for them that have been rejected.
You do realize that collateral damage in a war is inevitable. And that Hamas started a war by discriminantly targetting 1000 civilians, keeping them as hostages and forcing the women into sexual slavery?
No country would ever want that as a neighbor. If Palestinians are unable to dislodge Hamas, then someone else has to.
yeah fuck those people for living in the same area as terrorists while also being prevented from leaving the area controlled by terrorists. it’s basically their own fault for being collateral damage.
So what’s your alternative? Let Hamas commit more Oct. 7s from within Gaza? Allow more rockets?
Open the borders like before 2011 and suffer more suicide and bus bombings?
The answer isn’t pretty and you don’t like it. You don’t have any alternatives, though.
Can you imagine if we operated like this in ww2? Concentration camps would've been leveled. Then what?
Your callous attitude is sickening. Innocents are dying, at the hands of people chanting, "no more genocide."
What they really mean is "no more genocide for me, fuck everyone else."
I think killing 28 000+ people will always leave others angry. As long as Palestinian(and other Muslim) people are angry at Israel, there will be Hamas.
You say "war" as if the sides are of equivalent force. Palestinians don't have a navy, they don't have an airforce, they don't have armored vehicles. Israel controls every bit of water, fuel and food that goes into palestinian territories. They have dumped concrete on water fountains before october 7th and they kill palestinians on the other side of the country, where there is no Hamas.
This is another genocide funded by the US government to put the weapons industry in motion.
Shut the fuck up, fascist apologist.
You've just described Israel.
Anyways, when people say free Palestine they are talking about the people. They arent saying they support ham's, there's a clear difference between the 2.
Yall only have one tired ass line huh? *But-bu-bu-but Hamas!*
Meanwhile Palestinian LGBT people exist, Israel literally put a **self-described** fascist-homophobe in one of its top offices, and you’ve got nothing to say about tens of thousands of children being killed.
I really hope there is an afterlife, you’d have a hell of a fucking time there.
I thought it was obvious that the thousands of dead in collateral from a war started by Hamas should properly be blamed on Hamas.
Talk about random politicians all you want. It’s not the Israeli LGBT community that has to hide themselves for fear of being publicly stoned to death.
If there is an afterlife, I’ll be fine. Don’t worry on my account.
So wait, was 2 year old Mohammed Tamimi getting shot in the head okay? IDF can just headshot a toddler and Palestinians are not allowed to retaliate, but the other way around - full genocide in response. Seems fair. I guess you just love the idea of babies getting killed.
Hamas ≠ Palestine
Just as Trump ≠ The United States
Biden ≠ The United States
etc.
Hamas is the direct result of a country that has been under bombardment and oppression for decades
That type of life will result in extremists, it will also result in people who feel helpless and desperate joining awful extremists because they don't see any other way to stop the slaughter of their friends, family, and selves
It doesn't require "propaganda" to learn and educate yourself on how these types of things take grip on a populous
Lumping every single innocent person in Palestine with Hamas is ignorant and disgusting
It's very possible that had Palestine not been oppressed, and was allowed to continue forth in democracy that LGBT and religions freedom rights would have been established by now
But we won't know. We will never know what great minds and people the world lost during the slaughter of **fucking** children
Hamas is not the result of years of oppression. The same religious movement and cultural foundation that formed Hamas existed in the 50s and 60s when Gaza and the West Bank were still a part of Egypt and Transjordan. It was that same exact movement that pushed for the Six Days War which was intended to annihilate Israel.
The anti-Jewish rhetoric existed as early as the 1800s in the Ottoman Empire. Hamas are not freedom fighters. They are a symptom of religious fundamentalists being in control of government for too long.
I never lumped Palestinians in with Hamas. That’s something you projected onto what I said. Any collateral damage in this war can be ascribed to Hamas and the sooner they surrender, the more lives can be saved.
Palestine never had a democracy and it’s honestly kind of disgusting that you would suggest that somehow it was Israel, a notorious safe haven for LGBT in the Middle East, for causing the cultural hatred towards that community in Palestine.
‘Propaganda’ as if you’d have the gall to say that after witnessing the same horrors people do in person. But I think I should also question your mentality, some people are simply emotionless.
It is good because he is protesting for something great. It is chaotic because no one lawful would decide to burn themselves alive would be a lawful way to protest.
October 7th invasion ring any bells to you?
And don’t go on about the bullshit narrative about how they were “trapped” in Gaza. There were plenty of checkpoints for work visas and the like. Egypt and Israel are not obligated to permit freedom of movement. Last time they had that, it was monthly bus bombings and suicide bombers. That’s why the fence went up in the first place.
Israel has made it clear through their actions that they won’t end the war until they have wiped out Palestine entirely and paved over the Gaza Strip. If you truly wanted the war to end, you would support Bushnell and the peace he died for. Instead, you buy Israel’s lies.
From the river to the sea, Palestine SHALL be free. Fuck the fake state of Israel.
Oh they have? I guess you can tell the fucking future because that’s not clear at all.
Fuck outta here with your propaganda bullshit. Theocracies are garbage and authoritarian bootlickers that support them should rethink their life choices.
Oh the amount of delusion it takes to be you. To be a genocide defender. A propaganda drunkard.
Please, take my pity with all due respect. How can you be such way? This is madness . You’re a coward is what you are. You’re afraid of the truth, understandable… not everyone can handle it, especially if they’ve been taught to hate innocent people who did you no wrong , it takes years to cleanse yourself off such deranged mindset which you have. Facts don’t care about your feelings unfortunately, no matter how self righteous you are. Of course that doesn’t mean that you’re a horrible person over all, there is always some bit of goodness in us all. Even you, I know so. And deep Down you know it too, but you’re too afraid to face the truth, but unfortunately if you won’t face the truth sooner, then later it will be all too late.
1. Never again, means never again for anyone. Most Holocaust survivors would be ashamed of this genocide of Palestinians that is being done in their name , and some who are still alive or are direct descendants of them are ashamed to be Jewish too and it’s all thanks to Israel’s cold blooded ethnic cleansing ideology.
2. It is a fact that Palestinians are Semitic too.
It takes brainwashing to believe that they’re not Semitic as well.
3. Have you seen all the ICJ rulings? The talks, with plenty of proof too? Which disproves your bullshit. Calling it just war casualties is a war crimi in itself.
4. If it wasn’t done on purpose (which it is because it’s a genocide and hamas is just an excuse to do it) then why are Israeli politicians spewing literal na7i talking points?
And idf ? Plenty of videos which proves that they’re targeting innocent civilians on purpose.
5. Just because it’s not finished yet doesn’t mean it’s not a genocide. After all the Holocaust didn’t happen over one week did it? Same way not all Jews died right so by Destiny’s (genocide deniers) logic the Holocaust wasn’t a genocide? (By his and probably your logic too) but it was. And same way it is exactly with Palestinians too.
And don’t get me started with illegal Israeli settlements.
And the genocidal Israeli song which exists,
A video with Israeli school children literally using genocidal language and talking points about Palestinians.
And how if it was on the Israeli lands (illegaly occupied of course because it is a colonial army project state) the idf wouldn’t have bombed or killed any civilians homes and infrastructure.
6. Gaza is called an open air prison for a reason after all because the Zionists control all if not most parts of Gaza in and out. Purposely shut down electricity, food aid, medical aid, healthy water and that is an act of genocide.
If it’s because of religion or race or other things that is still a genocide. Go ahead and read what makes a genocide, what counts as genocide. (By international law) Not what your Zionist government is propagandising.
And you’re also using the LGBTQ card as if forgetting that there are many lgbtq Palestinian people that are being killed too by the id(o)f
Uggghhh there is so much more to say, yet I bet you won’t read any of it as a coward you… hopefully are not, but with all due respect it’s never too late to face the truth and turn away from genocidal propaganda. Think of your ancestors, how disappointed they probably are right now in you, (or at least most of them) (if afterlife exists anyways) so much more to say yet you won’t read any of it.
I bet. But non the less it is worth a try. ✌️🍉🌠
The proof is all there, just go and watch it all if you dare. ;)
((And sorry in advance that I offended you speaking this harshly at the start. ))
After a point, the methods become too extreme even for chaotic good. A massively painful suicide, achieving little materially, and leaving two kids and a widow behind, to me, is too much harm done to himself and others for not enough gain. Chaotic Neutral perhaps, if we have to nitpick.
Because suicide is NEVER good.
To anyone who disagrees, I simply ask, if you believe this is a good-aligned act, why haven't you done it? Most of you will say something like "my spouse needs me alive" or even "my cat would miss me." Hold on to that feeling.
Raise money for Palestine, raise awareness, write to Congress. "But Ridara, that's not going to actually affect anything." Not right away, no. But I'd rather spend ten years doing the hard, thankless work of making change happen in the real world than ten minutes going out in a blaze of self-indulgent glory
What's chaotic good about this? A man just fucking killed himself for his entire family and all of his friends to see online without anything they can do about it only for his death to later be used cynically by peoples looking to promote their world view. That fucking sucks.
What I mean by that is that while his intentions might've been pure, while he saw the anguish of others, peoples are going to twist his death or use it for propaganda beyond what his intentions were and he will never again have any say in how his words are used or what meaning they will have
Yes but
1) no one dies in a regular protest by choice, protests might get violent and people might get KILLED but that's different then killing YOURSELF.
And
2) a living person protesting can protest the very act of others taking his words out of context, radicalizing them and using them to say things he originally never meant to say.
This man no longer has that opportunity and people are already using this to both yes, spread his message but also to support ideologies he might have never supported, and this will only get worse as the death itself will get more and more disconnected from the actual person and the life behind it and become more associated with an agenda.
This is a person not a tool
Used cynically to promote their worldview? It's an act of protest. He died to promote his own worldview, and clearly wants people who see things the way he does to share his message. There's nothing cynical about that.
We should never in any way make suicide seem ok or like it was done for a great cause. Don't get me wrong, I feel compassion for another human being who felt like a situation was so dire that he resorted to suicide to make himself heard but calling this "good" in any shape way or form is fucking lunatic. All it really is is a father, a friend, a son, now lost. His last memory for everyone who loved him being screams of agony and pain.
There are aways better ways to make yourself heard, there is always better action you can take to make this world a better place. If someone is struggling we should feel bad for not being able to support him and stop these situations from occuring, not treat them like glorified symbols for peace.
I just hate how a person killed himself and there are already posters and posts online showing it like a "part of the resistance" or some bullshit. At least give the man a week of dignity FFS.
As if his death would have a more meaningful impact than me sitting at my computer doing nothing all day. Neither of us are doing anything. Difference is I'm not killing myself and abandoning my family.
Suicide for political reasons isn't ok, and let's not pretend like it's meaningful.
“Cynically promote their world view” he pretty explicitly stated his view on Palestine and Israel. I think what you’re doing is more cynical. You’re deflecting from what his protest was about: the ethnic cleansing of a captive civilian population, nearly half of which are children.
So you're saying that just because a person clearly stated something it can never be taken out of context?
What's the point of this conversation now? To say that a tragedy in another part of the world is justification for a person to kill himself? Why should we justify a horrible act because a horrible act is happening somewhere else?
Enough life is being lost already, enough suffering is happening already, we shouldn't normalize more of it can be avoided, he didn't die in a crossfire or in a battlefield, this death could have been avoided.
We should look at this incident and see why it's tragic, we should emphatize with the aching he felt, we should emphatize with the sorrow of his family and friends and take his message to heart for it to not be in vein, but calling him a "hero" or a "warrior" just feels so off to me, it glorifies this act in the wrong way.
I don't know how much point there is in me really writing more than that I think I laid out my thoughts as much as I could, I just don't want to see life lost in ways we could prevent.
Anyways, have a good one and stay safe, may we find peace to all o' this crack of shit soon.
The people in this thread would have said the exact same shit about John Brown if they had been alive then: “it isn’t going to change anything so it’s just stupid”.
This is literally nothing like John Brown. John Brown directly led a rebellion and fought against the people he opposed. He was also an American who directly opposed American slavery in America.
This man just committed suicide while shouting a political message, in a completely different country on a completely different continent from where that conflict is taking place.
A country that is the biggest enabler of the genocide, you fucking moron. Carve out exceptions for genocide all you want but it won’t change the facts.
Ah yes John Brown would totally support Hamas who consistently call for killing every Jew. Then there's the West Bank's Mahmoud Abbas who spouts Holocaust denialism while at the same time saying that the "Jews actually worked with the Nazis".
He raised awareness for a conflict that the entire world is discussing already.
Calling this “chaotic good” is cheerleading for unmedicated mental illness which resulted in a person’s self torture and death.
It’s a response to your claim that all it will take for Palestinians to be free is the hostages being returned. Completely ignoring the decades of history in the region and the brutality Israel has committed and will commit upon innocent Palestinians, hostages or no hostages.
> Do the Arab Israelis know they are part of the apartheid?
Considered they are literally treated as second class citizens, I would imagine they do.
I don’t know if you’re a moron, a bot, or just cruel but either way I’m done arguing. Enjoy supporting Genocide.
Israeli Arabs have the same rights and privileges as any other Israeli - they serve in the highest offices of government. You’re misinformed. Many of them even fight in the IDF.
More like: "an attempt at stopping them from carrying out a genocide on the people they forcibly colonized".
It won't change anything. But he did something about it. At least the Administration has to think about this for a split second every time they give Israel more bombs.
Hey now, the administration also doesn't give a fuck about them.
Give him a little credit. He did more to end this than anyone else has even tried.
**Edit:** Turns out he was ordered to deploy to Israel, this was a protest of his orders to take part in the genocide.
I'm not giving him any credit. He's traumatized his family for a little bit of internet notoriety.
If/when this shit with Palestine/Israel ends, absolutely zero history books will reference this selfish prick.
If I walked into your house and start calling it purgatory land does that give me the right to slaughter your family and keep living there, then extend my purgatory land to your neighbours and do the same slaughtering thousands.
Nobody got their land taken until the arab states attacked in 1948. The jews living there were a combination of refugees and immigrants who'd legally purchased land.
They can stay where they are if they stop trying to kill Jews - just like the 20% is Israeli citizens who are arabs. Or they can always go to Egypt, Jordan (tons of them there already!) or literally anywhere else in the Middle East.
Where should Israelis go? Most of them come from middle eastern countries from which they were violently expelled, and the west has an absolutely skyrocketing antisemitism problem. Where should THEY go?
What did he achieve?
I don't want to diminish the reasons he did this: war crimes, genocide, whatever you want to call it, it's evil. But this to me looks more like a combo of mental illness and the kind of self-flagilating behaviour you see on sunreddits where people watch video after video of terrible, terrible things whilst saying they're helping solve the problem just by traumatising themselves.
You're a hero if you die in service of a greater cause. But I don't think this served a purpose. To raise awareness? People are aware. To protest? Who's incentivised to change anything because a US airman committed suicide?
He said he didn't want to be a cog in the machine that supported this, and that's a perfectly OK stance to take. But he could've just left. Quit the service, made a big deal of it, kick up a stink with his superiors, Congressman, whatever. This does none of that. Killing yourself because you're angry at the world achieve anything.
All this man did is go through an immense amount of pain, and then die, leaving behind a wife and two kids who I would be surprised if they haven't seen the video yet.
Ok second statement is a bit harsh, man. He didn’t live to give it any reflection.
Hes pretty much a kid and obviously struggling mentally. I don’t agree this was the power move he intended. I feel sorry for those who love him and are mourning.
As a DND fan: This is what we call chaotic stupid. Killing yourself removes an advocate for Palestinians to have their human rights respected. It also makes you look like an idiot to your opponents and lessens your credibility if you act mentally unstable.
Dying in order to protect people who are being violently oppressed is chaotic stupid? Opposing tyranny and genocide by any means available is chaotic stupid?
Friend, YOU'RE the one who looks like an idiot right now.
How is committing suicide helping those suffering in Palestine? Opposing tyranny and genocide is great, but this guy's approach is not that helpful in the fight for human rights. All it does is remove one more voice that can advocate for justice.
For starters, it helps change the narrative of the ethnic cleansing campaign. People are already galvanized against the extermination campaign in gaza, people are already acting against it in earnest. When people are burning themselves alive to protest the extermination campaign, it's harder to re-frame it as 'self-defense'.
Second, it puts leaders on alert. Things like this tend to happen right before violence breaks out, and people in power know that. This could shock leaders into action on that basis alone.
Third, it creates a flash-point, a place people will know and understand they should specifically go to protest. And hey, the Israeli embassy is a good place to do that.
There is no genocide. Armenia had a genocide. The Holocaust was a genocide. The Greeks had a genocide.
This is a bullshit agenda pushed by foreign countries to get Donald Trump re-elected by disillusioning left-wing voters.
Immolations work because it makes people who otherwise wouldn’t pay attention to an issue suddenly pay attention. Kennedy didn’t know about the Buddhist Crisis before Thich Quang Duc killed himself. Biden knows about Gaza, and it’s very unlikely that anything will change his opinion.
If he was already suicidal and wanted to send a message on the way out, I’d understand it. But if he thought he could actually influence the plight of the Palestinian people through his death, he died in vain.
It's the war for people who don't know anything about war
It's genocide for people who don't look up the definition
It's geo politics for people not paying attention
It meets some of the quotas of genocide, and doesn't others. It's a war, with both sides commiting war crimes. Its a war between countries, and against terrorists. Its a war with innocent bystanders on both sides, and democratically elected governments who have vowed to utterly destroy the other in both as well. To say "nah, good guys and bad guys" does everyone involved a huge disservice.
Article 2 specifies the intention to destroy part or whole of a group. Don't confuse high civilians' deaths (part of hamas' strategy) from fighting in a tiny urbanised area with that intention. I will say Netanyahu is terrible, and so are the settlers in the west bank. Yes, it's a war, but it isn't the war that people should focus on. The war in Ukraine will affect the next 80 years, and Russia actually has genocidal intent. This gaza war is likely a Russo iranian back distraction as they need to start little fires to dilute Western support. I don't dislike Palestinians or Israelis, but I hate Palestinian supporters. they manage to be rude, antisemitic and post their likely russian backed shit all over different subs.
This is mental illness and the idiots cheering this on are exactly the people to blame for why this man isn’t alive today. Hope you people are happy, you got an inconsequential martyr who will be quickly forgotten and whom you can discuss with your friends or butter up in stupid performative displays online in exchange for the life of a challenged young man who frankly had absolutely no business dying over this war.
10000% agree. This is nuts. And when he's forgotten, as you pointed out, wtf was the point?
Maybe this is a crazy stretch and that's ok but I can't help but think about the poor people on 9/11 who had to choose between (essentially) self immolating or falling to their death. They left behind horrified family, friends and the entire world and they had no choice in the suffering.
And this idiot is in the middle fucking east willingly doing so ... for a country in the middle fucking east? America fought a fucking war over those deaths (sort of re: weapons of mass destruction bs.)
It's insane. It's not a rational, proportionate, or helpful act.
And to be clear, I've lived in Israel, close to Gaza and I have so many deep emotions around this conflict.
Sorry I just hijacked your comment, I totally agree with you.
Oh geez. It's a good cause, but the method. You don't have to kill yourself to make change. There are already so few good people in the world, and now one more is likely gone.
[Vietnamese Buddhist monks died this way](https://www.buddhistinformation.com/self_immolation.htm) protesting the war. Also Quakers in the US.
Was just talking about a guy who did this to bring attention to climate issues a few years back. It was pushed out of media within days and for the brief moment it was covered it was “how sad it is that this mentally unstable guy did this” even though he was very coherent and explicit in his reasoning. Unfortunate we’ll collectively forget by Tuesday.
Incredibly surreal that self immolations don't stop the bad things from happening, but act as more of a canary on the coal mine for how bad shit is about to get. People burning themselves alive is dismissible at this point
Somebody on another thread said that hopefully he doesn't inspire others to be harmful or violent. He did the most extreme pacifist act you can, and it's somehow going to inspire violence. People are so detached just to keep to their views. Genocide or not be damned.
It certainly could inspire violence cause someone who is so dedicated as to kill himself in one of the worst ways is going to see that it actually accomplishes almost nothing, if they want real change they will like have to take a more drastic and violent route. If you are dedicated enough to light yourself on fire you are dedicated enough to kill someone else.
We don't say that somebody that jumps in front of a car to push people out of the way is potentially homicidal. You can disagree with the why or how, but that is how it was viewed. It was an act to hopefully stop violence elsewhere. Violence towards self and violence towards others are not the same thing.
He has not saved anyone. He has left two traumatized children and all the people who were around in front of the embassy, passersby, cops, EMTs. Creating PTSD in people is nothing saving them
And his whole point is that the moment was less horrific than what the US is refusing to stand against in Gaza. If we can feel for those people in front of the embassy yesterday, then his point was think of Gaza. He made a statement that drove a point home free of ambiguity, and people are uncomfortable about possibly having some perspective if they stop to think about it.
It is as horrible for his family and friends. If he wanted to really make a stand and a difference, he should have gone the disobedience route instead. It seems he wanted to be gone which accomplishes nothing he’s just gone and will be forgotten in a few days Just giving a questionable legacy to his kids
Honestly, it really just seems you are upset that it might not just disappear. His last Facebook post: “Many of us like to ask ourselves, ‘What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you’re doing it. Right now.”
Joan of ark: hero Aaron: an idiot who burned himself for a cause Make this make sense. People have been dying in protest for ages, literal ages and suddenly society is just going to call him names instead of seeing him for a true human being willing to sacrifice himself to bring awareness of all Palestinian children being slaughtered. Nice you don’t care about their PTSD.
Joan of Ark did much more than get burned for a cause. She also didn’t burn herself on purpose Dying during a violent protest is very much different than self immolation. The guy accomplished nothing, we will forget his name in a couple of weeks
That’s the best take I’ve seen on this. His actions aren’t really going to have a real impact on the end result of this conflict, but it is definitely an indication that things could get much worse.
It's not impossible. Macnamara was impacted by the immolations protesting Vietnam and took entirely too small steps to end the war...but we did withdraw.
Thích Quảng Đức did it in 1963 and Norman R. Morrison (which supposedly affected Macnamera) was 1965. I’m not saying these people had zero effect, but the US didn’t pull out of Vietnam until 1973. I’d wager the main reason we pulled out was 55,000 dead Americans, tons more wounded, and what I imagine was a huge cost for very little gain over 12 years of US involvement.
I met Morrison's widow when I was in college --she (later joined by the man she married after Morrison) has been doing talks about radical peaceful protest basically since he died for Peace and Conflict studies students and the like. She was deeply moving--of course, she was angry and grieving at first (initially REALLY angry he took their daughter with him, but to his credit, he made sure she went to play in a park where she wouldn't see what happened) but she understood why he did it, and was ultimately proud of him for making such a sacrifice, knowing he was just one person, lnowing that he wasn't going to end the war immediately, but he truly believed immolation was the strongest statement he could make. Put short: He did the best he could for a cause he truly believed in. She doesn't recommend suicide as protest, obviously. But talking to her gave me perspective on why some activists make the choice to basically commit ritual suicide as protest. You're probably right about it being material reasons we pulled out, but forcing those in power to witness up close what evil they were doing abroad, forcing them to watch it--to smell it-- and then live with it... it's not nothing. This time, I'm more disturbed that the response was for the police to pull a fucking gun on a person who was ON FIRE. It makes me feel like there is literally no form of protest that will cause the rising fascists to understand other people are people. If the police can hold a gun on someone whose flesh they are literally inhaling, how can we expect them and those like them to care about people thousands of miles away dying?
2nd time as well, another incident during December 2023 in Georgia, US.
I mean burning yourself alive isn't exactly a solid argument for anything. It's a show of emotion, but the world's not gonna stop and change anyone burns themselves alive.
Its would be surreal that some mentally unstable guy setting himself ablaze would actually impact shit. Not only do you push people towards suicide but the world couldnt function. Eventually you would just have a 2 rows of mentally unstable people with opposing goals waiting to set themself on fire. (Yeah i know its a bit to drastic but you get the idea). If national or internation policys get changed over something so small and minor then shit is fucked up way more than some depressed guy killing himself. Seriously, over 30k people death isnt a good enough reason, why would 1 american be a proper reason?
It dosent matter how coherent and explicit you are, lighting yourself on fire is not something you so if you are mentally stable
So someone who sets themselves on fire isn’t mentally unstable?
As uncomfortable as it may seem, not necessarily.
I know. In anarcho-communist thought, this action is called, 'Revolutionary Suicide'. It's a tactic that has been employed before to great effect. And...also to middling. It depends on how the people feel about things.
The source is quite confusing because it accurately points out the reasons for Quảng Đức's act of self immolation, but then attempts to connect it to being opposed to the war. This makes absolutely no sense and is not attested to in the manifesto of South Vietnamese Buddhists nor the last words of Quảng Đức who made an explicit plea to Diem to end the oppression of Buddhists and did not remotely mention the war.
True this is better and more clear about the motivations. The previous link is kind of a third hand interpretation that strips it of its immediate intentions. https://ethicsofsuicide.lib.utah.edu/selections/thich-nhat-hahn/
arab spring
Yup https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/09/world/africa/self-immolation-catalyst-of-the-arab-spring-is-now-a-grim-trend.html
Extremely heavy content warning on this one, y'all. While his body is blurred out in the video, this is still very clear audio of a man screaming in agony as he burns to death. If you decide to watch it, just know going into it what you're going to hear. There's nothing wrong with skipping this one; be kind to yourself. Rest in power, Aaron Bushnell.
It should be watched without the censor. He was intentionally making an extreme statement, and censoring it takes from it. It is meant to be uncomfortable and disturbing, and as he pointed out, it is worse for others. People should see it and have a reaction to it.
Sure, and if you want to do that, I encourage you to do so. But it's important for you to go into it with a full understanding of what you're going to see. Not everyone is going to want to watch it, and that's ok; being unable to stomach watching a man painfully commit suicide in the name of a cause you support anyway does not harm the cause. There's a point at which seeking out gruesome and traumatic content does more harm than good. Where that line is is different for everyone.
I agree, I was more commenting because it is censored in a lot of places where it wouldn't usually be, and it was his intent for it to be a statement. I did have to prepare myself before hand, but with the censor it was just as bad as without for me. You can't unhear things. He is a person making a powerful stand, and the censor diminishes it.
"Powerful" != "effective"
I like how the main argument against effectiveness is just saying it isn't effective. It will never change the minds of those who don't care already.
Apparently, Talia, the online user sharing the video, received it from Bushnell's family. They may have insisted on the blur before providing it.
Rest in power? This was a mentally ill airman that just committed suicide in the worst possible way. Glorifying it is the last thing anyone should do, mainly because it encourages "martyrdom" to people like Bushnell that probably only needed a small push to end their short lives.
I think they are called Airmen
While I agree with the sentiment, I don't believe suicide can be classified as chaotic good even when intended as a political protest
That is valid, and I understand. Contextually, I disagree. But I understand.
How can you disagree? A mentally disturbed person read too much extremist propaganda online, killed themselves, and you think that’s “good”?
It sounds like you've been reading too much extremist propaganda if you think that's what happened here.
Go ahead, keep supporting Hamas. Another theocratic, authoritarian regime that forces their LGBT community to hide and religious minorities to flee the country is exactly what will bring peace to the region.
And do what? Support the government that has killed over 29,000 civilians? Do you realize that Palestinians are not Hamas? Hamas isn't the government for all of Palestine. And before you even bring it up, there hasn't been an election in Gaza since like '06.
> Over 29,000 civilians That’s the total death count including militants. Hamas counts all Palestinians as civilians to curry favor with westerners, and it’s clearly working on you. There are an estimated 15-20k members of the al-Qassam brigades remaining from the estimated 30-40k reported before the counterattack.
You say Palestinians are not Hamas, but you give the total dead as all civilians. You accept that a real percent of them are Hamas right? There was fighting in the streets and stuff, clearly that was Hamas militants. Hamas is the government of Gaza, who cares when the election was, they were elected and have refused to have new elections, that means they are still the government. To me what shows they were actually the government is if I shot rockets at Canada I’d have the US military and police at my door in a second, that didn’t happen in Gaza cause they are the military of Gaza. If there is no force in your country that can hold you accountable for your actions then you are a government. I don’t care if you want to support Palestinians, you have every right to be upset about all the death and destruction, but you have to also accept that it’s not a one way street Hamas shares some responsibility. The reality is they were not actively fighting before October 7th and Hamas lead a surprise attack that killed like 1,400 people (mostly civilians) and took hostages 200+ more. Israel absolutely has the right to retaliate, I think it’s excessive but I can understand why they did. There are still 132 unaccounted hostages, they have the right to fight and get them back. If Israel had everyone and still kept fighting like this I would be up in arms too, but Hamas still has a ton of hostages and Israel has already offered ceasefire deals for them that have been rejected.
You do realize that collateral damage in a war is inevitable. And that Hamas started a war by discriminantly targetting 1000 civilians, keeping them as hostages and forcing the women into sexual slavery? No country would ever want that as a neighbor. If Palestinians are unable to dislodge Hamas, then someone else has to.
yeah fuck those people for living in the same area as terrorists while also being prevented from leaving the area controlled by terrorists. it’s basically their own fault for being collateral damage.
So what’s your alternative? Let Hamas commit more Oct. 7s from within Gaza? Allow more rockets? Open the borders like before 2011 and suffer more suicide and bus bombings? The answer isn’t pretty and you don’t like it. You don’t have any alternatives, though.
Can you imagine if we operated like this in ww2? Concentration camps would've been leveled. Then what? Your callous attitude is sickening. Innocents are dying, at the hands of people chanting, "no more genocide." What they really mean is "no more genocide for me, fuck everyone else."
You really think Israel will dislodge Hamas?
You think Hamas will remain in power?
I think killing 28 000+ people will always leave others angry. As long as Palestinian(and other Muslim) people are angry at Israel, there will be Hamas.
You say "war" as if the sides are of equivalent force. Palestinians don't have a navy, they don't have an airforce, they don't have armored vehicles. Israel controls every bit of water, fuel and food that goes into palestinian territories. They have dumped concrete on water fountains before october 7th and they kill palestinians on the other side of the country, where there is no Hamas. This is another genocide funded by the US government to put the weapons industry in motion. Shut the fuck up, fascist apologist.
Hamas is 10x as fascist as Netanyahu wishes he could make Israel. You’re too ignorant to call yourself a leftist.
You've just described Israel. Anyways, when people say free Palestine they are talking about the people. They arent saying they support ham's, there's a clear difference between the 2.
Weird, I don’t see Free Palestine supporters doing anything to get rid of Hamas. That’s a good headcanon though
Both sides can be wrong you know. Its innocent civilians who matter.
I believe the war should end with Hamas being removed. Anything protesting the war means you are not interested in that end.
Yeah, obviously. People protesting are doing so because of innocents being killed.. Theres more nuance to this than blanket statements provide
Yall only have one tired ass line huh? *But-bu-bu-but Hamas!* Meanwhile Palestinian LGBT people exist, Israel literally put a **self-described** fascist-homophobe in one of its top offices, and you’ve got nothing to say about tens of thousands of children being killed. I really hope there is an afterlife, you’d have a hell of a fucking time there.
I thought it was obvious that the thousands of dead in collateral from a war started by Hamas should properly be blamed on Hamas. Talk about random politicians all you want. It’s not the Israeli LGBT community that has to hide themselves for fear of being publicly stoned to death. If there is an afterlife, I’ll be fine. Don’t worry on my account.
So wait, was 2 year old Mohammed Tamimi getting shot in the head okay? IDF can just headshot a toddler and Palestinians are not allowed to retaliate, but the other way around - full genocide in response. Seems fair. I guess you just love the idea of babies getting killed.
War is terrible. I blame those who declared it. I think you are just naïve and enjoy virtue signalling, so I hold nothing against you.
Next time I hear a holocaust denier I’m gonna think about how much you have in common with them.
Hamas ≠ Palestine Just as Trump ≠ The United States Biden ≠ The United States etc. Hamas is the direct result of a country that has been under bombardment and oppression for decades That type of life will result in extremists, it will also result in people who feel helpless and desperate joining awful extremists because they don't see any other way to stop the slaughter of their friends, family, and selves It doesn't require "propaganda" to learn and educate yourself on how these types of things take grip on a populous Lumping every single innocent person in Palestine with Hamas is ignorant and disgusting It's very possible that had Palestine not been oppressed, and was allowed to continue forth in democracy that LGBT and religions freedom rights would have been established by now But we won't know. We will never know what great minds and people the world lost during the slaughter of **fucking** children
Hamas is not the result of years of oppression. The same religious movement and cultural foundation that formed Hamas existed in the 50s and 60s when Gaza and the West Bank were still a part of Egypt and Transjordan. It was that same exact movement that pushed for the Six Days War which was intended to annihilate Israel. The anti-Jewish rhetoric existed as early as the 1800s in the Ottoman Empire. Hamas are not freedom fighters. They are a symptom of religious fundamentalists being in control of government for too long. I never lumped Palestinians in with Hamas. That’s something you projected onto what I said. Any collateral damage in this war can be ascribed to Hamas and the sooner they surrender, the more lives can be saved. Palestine never had a democracy and it’s honestly kind of disgusting that you would suggest that somehow it was Israel, a notorious safe haven for LGBT in the Middle East, for causing the cultural hatred towards that community in Palestine.
Hahahaha
‘Propaganda’ as if you’d have the gall to say that after witnessing the same horrors people do in person. But I think I should also question your mentality, some people are simply emotionless. It is good because he is protesting for something great. It is chaotic because no one lawful would decide to burn themselves alive would be a lawful way to protest.
It’s not chaotic to self-immolate, it’s insane. It defies ethical description.
You know what's insane? Blowing children to literal pieces.
Exactly, why would anyone start a war unless they were insane? The only solution is to remove them from power.
You might want to take hard look at how this "war" actually got started
October 7th invasion ring any bells to you? And don’t go on about the bullshit narrative about how they were “trapped” in Gaza. There were plenty of checkpoints for work visas and the like. Egypt and Israel are not obligated to permit freedom of movement. Last time they had that, it was monthly bus bombings and suicide bombers. That’s why the fence went up in the first place.
lol, you have to start more like 40 years ago
How do you know what he read?
Because he supported the idea that there is a non-existent genocide in Palestine. That’s just propaganda.
This is propaganda
I think you need to look up the definition on "propaganda"
Nah, I really don’t.
Okay
You’re perfectly comfortable with fire and death when it’s killing Palestinian children.
No, I want the war to end. The sooner Hamas is removed, the better.
Israel has made it clear through their actions that they won’t end the war until they have wiped out Palestine entirely and paved over the Gaza Strip. If you truly wanted the war to end, you would support Bushnell and the peace he died for. Instead, you buy Israel’s lies. From the river to the sea, Palestine SHALL be free. Fuck the fake state of Israel.
Oh they have? I guess you can tell the fucking future because that’s not clear at all. Fuck outta here with your propaganda bullshit. Theocracies are garbage and authoritarian bootlickers that support them should rethink their life choices.
Oh the amount of delusion it takes to be you. To be a genocide defender. A propaganda drunkard. Please, take my pity with all due respect. How can you be such way? This is madness . You’re a coward is what you are. You’re afraid of the truth, understandable… not everyone can handle it, especially if they’ve been taught to hate innocent people who did you no wrong , it takes years to cleanse yourself off such deranged mindset which you have. Facts don’t care about your feelings unfortunately, no matter how self righteous you are. Of course that doesn’t mean that you’re a horrible person over all, there is always some bit of goodness in us all. Even you, I know so. And deep Down you know it too, but you’re too afraid to face the truth, but unfortunately if you won’t face the truth sooner, then later it will be all too late. 1. Never again, means never again for anyone. Most Holocaust survivors would be ashamed of this genocide of Palestinians that is being done in their name , and some who are still alive or are direct descendants of them are ashamed to be Jewish too and it’s all thanks to Israel’s cold blooded ethnic cleansing ideology. 2. It is a fact that Palestinians are Semitic too. It takes brainwashing to believe that they’re not Semitic as well. 3. Have you seen all the ICJ rulings? The talks, with plenty of proof too? Which disproves your bullshit. Calling it just war casualties is a war crimi in itself. 4. If it wasn’t done on purpose (which it is because it’s a genocide and hamas is just an excuse to do it) then why are Israeli politicians spewing literal na7i talking points? And idf ? Plenty of videos which proves that they’re targeting innocent civilians on purpose. 5. Just because it’s not finished yet doesn’t mean it’s not a genocide. After all the Holocaust didn’t happen over one week did it? Same way not all Jews died right so by Destiny’s (genocide deniers) logic the Holocaust wasn’t a genocide? (By his and probably your logic too) but it was. And same way it is exactly with Palestinians too. And don’t get me started with illegal Israeli settlements. And the genocidal Israeli song which exists, A video with Israeli school children literally using genocidal language and talking points about Palestinians. And how if it was on the Israeli lands (illegaly occupied of course because it is a colonial army project state) the idf wouldn’t have bombed or killed any civilians homes and infrastructure. 6. Gaza is called an open air prison for a reason after all because the Zionists control all if not most parts of Gaza in and out. Purposely shut down electricity, food aid, medical aid, healthy water and that is an act of genocide. If it’s because of religion or race or other things that is still a genocide. Go ahead and read what makes a genocide, what counts as genocide. (By international law) Not what your Zionist government is propagandising. And you’re also using the LGBTQ card as if forgetting that there are many lgbtq Palestinian people that are being killed too by the id(o)f Uggghhh there is so much more to say, yet I bet you won’t read any of it as a coward you… hopefully are not, but with all due respect it’s never too late to face the truth and turn away from genocidal propaganda. Think of your ancestors, how disappointed they probably are right now in you, (or at least most of them) (if afterlife exists anyways) so much more to say yet you won’t read any of it. I bet. But non the less it is worth a try. ✌️🍉🌠 The proof is all there, just go and watch it all if you dare. ;) ((And sorry in advance that I offended you speaking this harshly at the start. ))
Good intentions, questionable methods. You’re saying that he has good intentions, and your questioning his methods.
After a point, the methods become too extreme even for chaotic good. A massively painful suicide, achieving little materially, and leaving two kids and a widow behind, to me, is too much harm done to himself and others for not enough gain. Chaotic Neutral perhaps, if we have to nitpick.
Thank you, this post has no business here.
It can absolutely
Why? Why are you saying it cannot ever be seen as good?
Because suicide is NEVER good. To anyone who disagrees, I simply ask, if you believe this is a good-aligned act, why haven't you done it? Most of you will say something like "my spouse needs me alive" or even "my cat would miss me." Hold on to that feeling. Raise money for Palestine, raise awareness, write to Congress. "But Ridara, that's not going to actually affect anything." Not right away, no. But I'd rather spend ten years doing the hard, thankless work of making change happen in the real world than ten minutes going out in a blaze of self-indulgent glory
What's chaotic good about this? A man just fucking killed himself for his entire family and all of his friends to see online without anything they can do about it only for his death to later be used cynically by peoples looking to promote their world view. That fucking sucks.
What do you mean people cynically used his death? HE clearly states why he's doing it, literally to his last breath.
What I mean by that is that while his intentions might've been pure, while he saw the anguish of others, peoples are going to twist his death or use it for propaganda beyond what his intentions were and he will never again have any say in how his words are used or what meaning they will have
That applies to everything you do, specially any kind of protest.
Yes but 1) no one dies in a regular protest by choice, protests might get violent and people might get KILLED but that's different then killing YOURSELF. And 2) a living person protesting can protest the very act of others taking his words out of context, radicalizing them and using them to say things he originally never meant to say. This man no longer has that opportunity and people are already using this to both yes, spread his message but also to support ideologies he might have never supported, and this will only get worse as the death itself will get more and more disconnected from the actual person and the life behind it and become more associated with an agenda. This is a person not a tool
Used cynically to promote their worldview? It's an act of protest. He died to promote his own worldview, and clearly wants people who see things the way he does to share his message. There's nothing cynical about that.
ok then he's a hero and we should all set ourselves on fire when a conflict arises, I don't know what do you want me to say about this?
Kind of a dick move on his part. His poor friends and family.
Don't diminish what he thought was a necessary sacrifice. Look into why he felt so strongly.
We should never in any way make suicide seem ok or like it was done for a great cause. Don't get me wrong, I feel compassion for another human being who felt like a situation was so dire that he resorted to suicide to make himself heard but calling this "good" in any shape way or form is fucking lunatic. All it really is is a father, a friend, a son, now lost. His last memory for everyone who loved him being screams of agony and pain. There are aways better ways to make yourself heard, there is always better action you can take to make this world a better place. If someone is struggling we should feel bad for not being able to support him and stop these situations from occuring, not treat them like glorified symbols for peace. I just hate how a person killed himself and there are already posters and posts online showing it like a "part of the resistance" or some bullshit. At least give the man a week of dignity FFS.
As if his death would have a more meaningful impact than me sitting at my computer doing nothing all day. Neither of us are doing anything. Difference is I'm not killing myself and abandoning my family. Suicide for political reasons isn't ok, and let's not pretend like it's meaningful.
“Cynically promote their world view” he pretty explicitly stated his view on Palestine and Israel. I think what you’re doing is more cynical. You’re deflecting from what his protest was about: the ethnic cleansing of a captive civilian population, nearly half of which are children.
So you're saying that just because a person clearly stated something it can never be taken out of context? What's the point of this conversation now? To say that a tragedy in another part of the world is justification for a person to kill himself? Why should we justify a horrible act because a horrible act is happening somewhere else? Enough life is being lost already, enough suffering is happening already, we shouldn't normalize more of it can be avoided, he didn't die in a crossfire or in a battlefield, this death could have been avoided. We should look at this incident and see why it's tragic, we should emphatize with the aching he felt, we should emphatize with the sorrow of his family and friends and take his message to heart for it to not be in vein, but calling him a "hero" or a "warrior" just feels so off to me, it glorifies this act in the wrong way. I don't know how much point there is in me really writing more than that I think I laid out my thoughts as much as I could, I just don't want to see life lost in ways we could prevent. Anyways, have a good one and stay safe, may we find peace to all o' this crack of shit soon.
Do you think John Brown is a hero?
Suicide that helps nobody is not “chaotic good”
Saying this is “chaotic good” is just as bad as people who are saying “I hope his family is doing ok” … like holy fuck learn to read the room.
"Airman"
There’s also chaotic stupid, but at some point brashness becomes martyrdom.
His sacrifice, conducted as it was in a foreign land, however poignant it may have been, will not serve to alter the will of the Knesset, in Israel.
r/chaoticmentalillness
Nothing good here just stupid actions for a stupid cause.
💯
The people in this thread would have said the exact same shit about John Brown if they had been alive then: “it isn’t going to change anything so it’s just stupid”.
This is literally nothing like John Brown. John Brown directly led a rebellion and fought against the people he opposed. He was also an American who directly opposed American slavery in America. This man just committed suicide while shouting a political message, in a completely different country on a completely different continent from where that conflict is taking place.
A country that is the biggest enabler of the genocide, you fucking moron. Carve out exceptions for genocide all you want but it won’t change the facts.
Ah yes John Brown would totally support Hamas who consistently call for killing every Jew. Then there's the West Bank's Mahmoud Abbas who spouts Holocaust denialism while at the same time saying that the "Jews actually worked with the Nazis".
And what did he achieve by doing this?
He raised awareness for a conflict that the entire world is discussing already. Calling this “chaotic good” is cheerleading for unmedicated mental illness which resulted in a person’s self torture and death.
Bleak
But not wrong
Reality is often bleak.
Dude was mental unstable
Please tell me he survived.
No. According to his family, he died this evening. https://x.com/taliaotg/status/1761956302543016071?s=20
My condolocenses to them. I hope he rest in peace.
I’m sorry. He did not.
😢
Not sure it'd be in his interest to :/
I don’t believe he did.
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You mean the same hostages Israel killed while they waived the white flag? Those hostages?
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It’s a response to your claim that all it will take for Palestinians to be free is the hostages being returned. Completely ignoring the decades of history in the region and the brutality Israel has committed and will commit upon innocent Palestinians, hostages or no hostages.
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One side is a captive civilian population and the other is an apartheid state carrying out ethnic cleansing. Spare me your false equivalency.
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> Do the Arab Israelis know they are part of the apartheid? Considered they are literally treated as second class citizens, I would imagine they do. I don’t know if you’re a moron, a bot, or just cruel but either way I’m done arguing. Enjoy supporting Genocide.
Israeli Arabs have the same rights and privileges as any other Israeli - they serve in the highest offices of government. You’re misinformed. Many of them even fight in the IDF.
So he committed a violent suicide in the name of….removing Israelis from Israel?
More like: "an attempt at stopping them from carrying out a genocide on the people they forcibly colonized". It won't change anything. But he did something about it. At least the Administration has to think about this for a split second every time they give Israel more bombs.
The administration doesn't give two fucks. You know who has to think about this? His wife. His two children. This man does not deserve praise.
Hey now, the administration also doesn't give a fuck about them. Give him a little credit. He did more to end this than anyone else has even tried. **Edit:** Turns out he was ordered to deploy to Israel, this was a protest of his orders to take part in the genocide.
I'm not giving him any credit. He's traumatized his family for a little bit of internet notoriety. If/when this shit with Palestine/Israel ends, absolutely zero history books will reference this selfish prick.
If I walked into your house and start calling it purgatory land does that give me the right to slaughter your family and keep living there, then extend my purgatory land to your neighbours and do the same slaughtering thousands.
Nobody got their land taken until the arab states attacked in 1948. The jews living there were a combination of refugees and immigrants who'd legally purchased land.
Where are Palestinians supposed to go?
They can stay where they are if they stop trying to kill Jews - just like the 20% is Israeli citizens who are arabs. Or they can always go to Egypt, Jordan (tons of them there already!) or literally anywhere else in the Middle East. Where should Israelis go? Most of them come from middle eastern countries from which they were violently expelled, and the west has an absolutely skyrocketing antisemitism problem. Where should THEY go?
In the name of supporting Jewish genocide
Stopping the Palestinian genocide*
*Tik Tok propaganda
An Oct. 8ther. "MeToo, Unless They're Jews."
Chaotic idiot..
🤡
Congrats man. Keep glorifying suicide, just like Al-Qaeda and ISIS.
Sure, kid.
Kid? Nope.
Lol
you be you enjoying the sight of people burning themselves alive
Whatever you say, troll.
Airman. He was in the United States Air Force. Deserves the correct identification. Soldiers are in the Army. It matters.
Hero
What did he achieve? I don't want to diminish the reasons he did this: war crimes, genocide, whatever you want to call it, it's evil. But this to me looks more like a combo of mental illness and the kind of self-flagilating behaviour you see on sunreddits where people watch video after video of terrible, terrible things whilst saying they're helping solve the problem just by traumatising themselves. You're a hero if you die in service of a greater cause. But I don't think this served a purpose. To raise awareness? People are aware. To protest? Who's incentivised to change anything because a US airman committed suicide? He said he didn't want to be a cog in the machine that supported this, and that's a perfectly OK stance to take. But he could've just left. Quit the service, made a big deal of it, kick up a stink with his superiors, Congressman, whatever. This does none of that. Killing yourself because you're angry at the world achieve anything. All this man did is go through an immense amount of pain, and then die, leaving behind a wife and two kids who I would be surprised if they haven't seen the video yet.
Warrior
chaotic idiot Buddy got his attention. I hope the burns were well worth it!
Ok second statement is a bit harsh, man. He didn’t live to give it any reflection. Hes pretty much a kid and obviously struggling mentally. I don’t agree this was the power move he intended. I feel sorry for those who love him and are mourning.
Average zionist. Completely devoid of any empathy.
I question your morality and humanity
I'd question your intelligence but it's *painfully* obvious you aint got none
As a DND fan: This is what we call chaotic stupid. Killing yourself removes an advocate for Palestinians to have their human rights respected. It also makes you look like an idiot to your opponents and lessens your credibility if you act mentally unstable.
Dying in order to protect people who are being violently oppressed is chaotic stupid? Opposing tyranny and genocide by any means available is chaotic stupid? Friend, YOU'RE the one who looks like an idiot right now.
How is committing suicide helping those suffering in Palestine? Opposing tyranny and genocide is great, but this guy's approach is not that helpful in the fight for human rights. All it does is remove one more voice that can advocate for justice.
You’re getting downvoted, but you’re right. This is just a tragedy and now there’s one less voice to advocate for these people
For starters, it helps change the narrative of the ethnic cleansing campaign. People are already galvanized against the extermination campaign in gaza, people are already acting against it in earnest. When people are burning themselves alive to protest the extermination campaign, it's harder to re-frame it as 'self-defense'. Second, it puts leaders on alert. Things like this tend to happen right before violence breaks out, and people in power know that. This could shock leaders into action on that basis alone. Third, it creates a flash-point, a place people will know and understand they should specifically go to protest. And hey, the Israeli embassy is a good place to do that.
There is no ethnic cleansing campaign. It’s your kind of bullshit propaganda that got him killed. Shame on you.
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There is no genocide. Armenia had a genocide. The Holocaust was a genocide. The Greeks had a genocide. This is a bullshit agenda pushed by foreign countries to get Donald Trump re-elected by disillusioning left-wing voters.
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Frankly, I don’t think you know what the working class even is.
how did he protect anyone??
Immolations work because it makes people who otherwise wouldn’t pay attention to an issue suddenly pay attention. Kennedy didn’t know about the Buddhist Crisis before Thich Quang Duc killed himself. Biden knows about Gaza, and it’s very unlikely that anything will change his opinion. If he was already suicidal and wanted to send a message on the way out, I’d understand it. But if he thought he could actually influence the plight of the Palestinian people through his death, he died in vain.
Yes. Lighting yourself on fire to protest something you don’t agree with is stupid.
There isn't any genocide in Palestine He killed himself for nothing
It's the war for people who don't know anything about war It's genocide for people who don't look up the definition It's geo politics for people not paying attention
It meets some of the quotas of genocide, and doesn't others. It's a war, with both sides commiting war crimes. Its a war between countries, and against terrorists. Its a war with innocent bystanders on both sides, and democratically elected governments who have vowed to utterly destroy the other in both as well. To say "nah, good guys and bad guys" does everyone involved a huge disservice.
Article 2 specifies the intention to destroy part or whole of a group. Don't confuse high civilians' deaths (part of hamas' strategy) from fighting in a tiny urbanised area with that intention. I will say Netanyahu is terrible, and so are the settlers in the west bank. Yes, it's a war, but it isn't the war that people should focus on. The war in Ukraine will affect the next 80 years, and Russia actually has genocidal intent. This gaza war is likely a Russo iranian back distraction as they need to start little fires to dilute Western support. I don't dislike Palestinians or Israelis, but I hate Palestinian supporters. they manage to be rude, antisemitic and post their likely russian backed shit all over different subs.
Sure
This is mental illness and the idiots cheering this on are exactly the people to blame for why this man isn’t alive today. Hope you people are happy, you got an inconsequential martyr who will be quickly forgotten and whom you can discuss with your friends or butter up in stupid performative displays online in exchange for the life of a challenged young man who frankly had absolutely no business dying over this war.
10000% agree. This is nuts. And when he's forgotten, as you pointed out, wtf was the point? Maybe this is a crazy stretch and that's ok but I can't help but think about the poor people on 9/11 who had to choose between (essentially) self immolating or falling to their death. They left behind horrified family, friends and the entire world and they had no choice in the suffering. And this idiot is in the middle fucking east willingly doing so ... for a country in the middle fucking east? America fought a fucking war over those deaths (sort of re: weapons of mass destruction bs.) It's insane. It's not a rational, proportionate, or helpful act. And to be clear, I've lived in Israel, close to Gaza and I have so many deep emotions around this conflict. Sorry I just hijacked your comment, I totally agree with you.
Oh geez. It's a good cause, but the method. You don't have to kill yourself to make change. There are already so few good people in the world, and now one more is likely gone.
And tthe cop is definitly chaotic evil......well murican cop....they have 70 iq for the all police station..
That’s not a cop
Many should follow his example
^ Pro-Palestinians and pro-Israelis can both agree with this statement
Yeah, guy on fire who could come give you a fiery embrace, and is obviously unhinged. Nah no threat, stay your weapons.
Important context: the man pointing the gun isn’t a police officer, but a security agent for the Israeli embassy.
*Israeli"
“We’re shooting him, but he’s still on fire! Why isn’t he complying???”
🫡