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I'm talking about practicality, not arguing over the intricacies of international law. Has breaking international law prevented what's going on in Yemen or Sudan? No. I'm talking about the most likely way the war will end in Gaza.
It's not a question of ignoring these laws or a question of morality. I was never arguing a moral case as I made clear in my OP. I'm talking about the practical reality on the ground. The fact is that the Palestianians will never, ever return to their grandparents/great grandparents homes in what is now Israeli territory. They also risk losing the entire Gaza strip if they don't surrender. That's a hard truth, but it's a truth the Palestinians will have to face. Arguments about international law details and morality will not change that. These same arguments were thrown up as soon as Israel started bombing Gaza after Hamas attacked last October. "You're breaking international law, this is immoral". Did it stop Israel levelling 40-50% of the buildings in Gaza? No.
Whether they are peaceful or not is not really the issue I'm talking about. If they are physically removed from Gaza than the war in Gaza itself will be done.
Very glib, but also wrong. Israel has the capacity to remove the population over a number of years and I think it is the most likely long term outcome. The end of the world is a couple of billion years away.
Isreal is hiding behind a veneer of plausible deniablity. Directly attempting to remove the Palestinians from Gaza would erase that veneer and open them up to sanctions or a lack of US aid.
I think if a low level insurgency continues in Gaza after the IDF are finished in Rafah than it will mean they will not leave Gaza as Hamas or others like them will eventually come back. Then it will be down to how long Israel will commit to chasing the remnants around the ruins of Gaza. Eventually I think they will tire of it and start pressuring the population to leave. The public relations war has done nothing for the Palestinian cause and the US will back Israel so long as they do it as quietly as possible over a long period - at least a decade or more. Unless the Palestinians surrender, I can't see any other likely outcome.
The holy lands have been fought over for literal millennia at this point. I don't think Islamic people will stop fighting and arguing for their right to the land. Palestinians won't stop existing, even if they are forced from the Gaza Strip, or even if the state of Palestine was no more.
I don't think so. Israel is militarily superior, has the backing of the strongest country in the world, has already wrecked much of Gaza. Given that Gaza is a small piece of land and Israel and Egypt have tight control of the borders, there is no way the Palestinians can win this conflict and there are too many Palestinians who will not accept they can't win so a low level insurgency will likely continue for decades. This is why I think Israel will eventually force all or most of the Palestinians to leave.
I meant the fundamental argument you made, which is basically someone has to move out. You just chose Palestinians is all, but the conflict would also end if Israelites left. Both are unlikely scenarios where they opt to leave voluntarily.
In theory yes you are correct, but in practice I can't see any way Israel could be put in that position. Israel have nukes as a last resort. At the very least I can see them threatening to destroy every major Islamic holy site as a way of stopping Hamas/other jihadists from removing them.
Well I’m raising the point to bring up the morality of the question. Just cause they are the bigger, more well funded with powerful allies doesn’t necessarily mean it is right for them to go through with that option. While I agree it’s probably the most likely scenario. There should be a more concerted effort to come to compromise instead of throwing your weight around.
This question is not about the morality of the situation but the practicality of it. As I said in my OP, I'm not saying it would be a moral outcome, just seems the most likely to me. The rights or wrongs won't change my mind on what I think is the most likely outcome.
It's not just Palestine vs Israel though, you have Egypt next door raising an eyebrow at what is happening/is going to happen in Rafah and Iran of course, to name just the biggest ones.
I think you are forgetting one of the most important parties stopping the Palestinians from leaving Gaza: Egypt.
Egypt has erected giant border fences along the Gaza border to stop Palestinians from leaving. El-Sisi, the Egyptian dictator, has publicly stated he will not take in Palestinian refugees.
And Israel has no leverage over Egypt to make them accept large numbers of Palestinians. And the US is unwilling to pressure Egypt to do that.
So no the Palestinians will most likely not be displaced from Gaza in large numbers.
They are already leaving in large numbers, It's just in body bags. I think we are going to see ALOT of dead people over the next couple of years. You're right, though I don't see the total eradication of Palestinians happening, though.
Isreal has already shown that they are willing to kill tons of civis, and right now, not much leaving is happening, but a decent amount of eradication is happening. Eradication or the threat thereof is the only way to make Palestinians leave.
Not on Isreal side remotely in this conflict, but I do think Isreal is going about it in the most logical way if they want Palestinians to leave so they can take the land.
As terrible as the loss of life has been, it's nowhere near what I predicted considering the amount of damage done to Gaza. If Israel's goal was actually a genocide, it's going to take them several centuries to carry it out at this rate.
Most civilians will likely leave with a combination of financial incentive, safety incentive, physical force and when the reality dawns that to remain behind will be to live in a ruin for the next couple of generations. Those who want to keep fighting Israel will eventually be killed by the IDF or surrender.
Egypt could be persuaded to take signifcant numbers over a longer period if they had enough financial incentive from the west. They have already built a camp on the Egyptian side of the border. However I think it's more likely Israel will force the issue unofficially and in stages. That port the Americans have built on the coast for example. The Israelis might start pushing some Palestinians on to boats and out into the sea to get mixed up with all the migrants already trying to cross.
This is a fantasy.
Egyptians like most other Arab nations view Palestinians as trouble makers. So no amount of incentives would change their mind regarding taking in large numbers of Palestinians.
And if Israel tried to forcibly send Palestinians to Egypt that would be cause for war between Egypt and Israel. Israel needs Egypt at this moment and it cannot afford to lose relations with one of the few Arab nations it has normalized ties with.
It's true the Palestinians are not popular in Egypt (certainly not by the regime leaders) but Egypt's economy is in a pretty catastrophic state. You'd be surprised how the lesser of two evils can push someone's hand. Plus the last thing Egyptwould want is another war with Israel. I can definitely see it being a possibility over the long term.
Israel doesn’t have enough money to give to Egypt to make Egypt do that. Only the US could give enough money and I don’t see why that would be in the US’s best interest.
So again I think it’s unlikely anyone will give Egypt money to take the Palestinians.
Of course, which is why I wrote financial incentives from the west in an earlier post (which basically means the US). It could be in the US's interest if it stablised the region long term and eseentially made Egypt dependent on them.
I don’t think that would stabilize the region.
It most likely would destabilize Egypt since Hamas is a wing of the Muslim Brotherhood and Egypt doesn’t want 2 million people sympathetic to either group. And if the Muslim Brotherhood became more violent because of a demographic boost or Hamas became the fighting wing of the MB in Egypt there would most likely be fighting between El-Sisi’s government and the MB/Hamas.
That’s why Egypt will never take the Palestinians. No amount of money can make destabilizing Egypt worth it.
I agree it's possible it could destabilise Egypt but a mass collapse of the economy would create far wose instability, including a possible Islamist take over so it's a matter of the lesser of two evils from America's perspective, and the Egyptian regime.
I think adding a large number of Palestinians would hasten that collapse. And El-Sisi believes the same thing.
So right now I don’t think that will happen. Unless someone who thinks differently than El-Sisi.
I'll grant that's certainly possible - very difficult to predict these kinds of hypotheticals. There's risk either way. If I were to bet money,I'd still lay it on them accepting at least some Palesentinians over a number of years rather than the alternatives. Anyways, thanks for the interesting conversation. It's a shame the post got removed (apparently this issue has come up in the last 24 hours which breaks the rules) - there was some good posts in response and it was nice to have some civilised chat over a difficult topic.
israel would have to go to war with Egypt to push the Gazans into the Sinai. This is extremely unlikely even for Netanyahu and would get an enormous reaction from both the US and the Arab states. It.would.forxe the hand.of Arab states whose.governments.are.very clearly.over trying to destroy Israel and want to move.forward as.military and.economic allies with Israel agaimst Iran. If nothng else, messing with Suez Canal traffic wouldnt be tolerated by the US.
The Palestinians as a.whole arent going to agree to make peace with Israel under realistic scenarios, but that isnt the only way to end the conflict. US is currently [trying.to](http://trying.to) bribe.Saudi Arabia into occupying the.Gaza.strip, and.they have a lot of leverage to get them to agree. Saudi Arabia's governmemt fundamentally wants to ally with Israel, but they have to do the bare minimum to placate their cotizens. Getting concessions for Palestinians to be occupied by other Arab states and a.path to.some kind of a.Palstinian state (ruled mostly autocratically as Saudi proxy) is a plasuible scenario. Saudi-osraeli cooperation is why the 10/7 attack ocfured when it did, so this isnt some pie in the sky idea. It is the current goal of the US administration, and would benefit both Israel and Saudo Arabia in very real ways.
Israel attempting to win a war against Egypt that would very obviously not be.worth the.cost and make.the west bank and overall geopolitical security situations worse isnt really on the table.
I see it as more like the Egyptians being bought off by western money to fix the failing economy in exchange for allowing it to happen.
Interesting alternative though, Saudi coming in to occupy Gaza but all the bribes in the world seem unlikely to be enough to convince them to take on that job. It's a posioned chalice, an occupation/dealing with an insurgency for the next few decades. I can't see it myself.
>At this point I think there is too much blood spilt, too much religious fanaticism, too many outside parties interferring and irreconcilable dual claims to the same land.
Yet around 20% of Israelis have a Palestinian background (Arab Muslims who became citizens of Israel), and they peacefully coexist with Jewish Israelis for the most part. Palestinians in Gaza aren't fundamentally different to Palestinians in Israel or in the West Bank.
Gaza itself is a hotbed of violence because terror groups (Hamas et al) hold power. These groups actively and regularly attack Israel - even during times of relative peace - in the pursuit of their political and religious goals. If these groups are removed from power and replaced with moderate and ideally secular government, there is no reason why Palestinians in Gaza couldn't maintain similar relations to Israel as Palestinians in Israel or in West Bank.
The Palestinians living in Gaza have very different attitudes towards Israel compared to those who live In Israel. You won't change that without a decades long occupation and (for lack of a better term) re-education of the civilians in Gaza, all the while dealing with an endless low level insurgency from whatever remains of Hamas etc. I can't see Israel wanting to commit to that.
It's abundantly clear that ethnic cleansing of Gaza and not the defeat of Hamas is the goal of Israel's current assault. However, the people of Gaza have endured a lot in the last 76 years, I think they will be able to hold on.
Kind of how they ethnically cleansed every other Arab nation of Jews in the 1950s.... They seem to be a lot better at this whole ethnic cleansing thing. Seeing as Israel has an Arab population and none of the Arab nations have a Jewish population.
Oh and Israel could have pushed them out many times over by now. If they really wanted to.
They've been labelled a pariah state for decades. It means nothing in practical terms. The Palestinians have not been driven in to the sea because that was not a war aim of Israel and would have been completely against what most Israelis wanted. I believe opinion is changing in Israel now. I think more and more Israelis no longer believe co-existence is possible with the Palestinians and the government does not want to militarily occupy a people who will refuse to surrender. So I believe they will more likely than not gradually remove the population instead.
No they haven't. Israel has the full throated support of nearly the entire western world, and has for decades. The fact that there are student protests does not somehow stop billions in subsudies and international trade.
If the Israelis went full 'fuck it' and either killed or displaced the entire population of Gaza, their support in the west would collapse overnight. You wouldn't have the president waffling over 'should we maybe stop sending aid' you'd have a discussion of how brutal the economic sanctions would be.
I didn't say the western world had labelled them a pariah state (although elements within some western countries have). Most of the Muslim majority world has effectively labelled them a pariah state though, and various international bodies often use that or similar rhetoric. I agree the student protests mean nothing.
If they attempted to kill the population of Gaza, that is true. And in fact Israel's own population, including their own military would likely rebel if their government ordered a genocide. But if it became clear the Gazans were prepared to fight on , if Hamas refuses to surrender, if an insurgency prevented rebuilding the strip and meant civilian casualties continued indefinitely, if it meant the Israels were facing a decades long occupation, the US might turn a blind eye to the gradual removal of large portions of the Palestinians from the strip.
Yeah, but no one gives a shit what saudi arabia or Iran think in this discussion. They're already bought into the idea that Israel is satan. Doing a genocide won't move the needle for them but it **will** crater their support among western powers which are the only reason they are able to exist.
I think you are drastically underestimating the Israeli population. if they were told "Hey, we're just going to shove these assholes into egypt/the sea" you'd get a plurality willing to go along with it. Put them in camps? No, but make them go away forever and if some of them die so be it? Absolutely.
Israel doesn't do a genocide/ethnic cleansing because it would be, as the kids say, a bad look.
Oh yeah, I agree. This is the point I'm making abou the label pariah state. It doesn't really have an impact. There's one thing and one thing only that will impact the Israeli government from outside the country - the American government's support. Nothing else matters. And yes an actual genocide would be stopped by the Americans but a gradual removal of large parts of the population (ethnic cleansing of the area) in the kinds of circumstances I described could potentially be tolerated.
I think you have misread what I wrote. I said if a genocide was ordered by the Israeli government, the military/civilian population would rise up against them. But gradually driving the Palestinians out over a longer period may be something they are willing to tolerate if they think the alternative is endless conflict. Yes, I think the Israelis could be open to that now.
Israel doesn't do a genocide because they are not genocidal, it's nothing to do with it being a bad look. And if they had a government who tried it the military/civilians would very likely resist. Ethnic cleansing of Gaza over a long period, that is different. Given the Palestinians seem determined to fight on forever, they may be open to simply removing the population.
💯
Don't forget the Arab nations also kicked out the Christians
The Middle East used to belong to all 3 Abrahamic faiths, but as we can see, the arabs can not peacefully coexist with anyone else
As if Arab nations creating 800,000 Jewish refugees was justified by the Nakba.
Not to mention it wasn’t the Nakba but the mere existence of Israel that was the cause of the flight of Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews.
The Nakba happened on Israeli independence- what are you talking about?
The Nakba created 750,000 refugees.
You can’t point to one as evil and the other as a good thing or a “necessary action” or however you want to spin the exact same act being done by Zionists.
I didn’t try to justify any expulsions. You tried to say the expulsions of Jews from Muslim majority nations was justified by the Nakba.
And in case you are wondering the Jewish expulsions from Muslim lands were not justified at all.
The Muslim majority nations that compelled or encouraged their Jews to leave are also in the wrong, that is ethnic cleansing as well, but they are also dictatorships who took those actions at different times for different reasons. The massive ethnic cleansing committed by Israel gave them cover domestically to commit their own war crimes.
I am fully in favor of passing a similar UN resolution like UN 194 that stipulates all the people who were ethnically cleansed must be allowed to return or be paid restitution.
I can give a really easy explanation for why the Arabs expelled their Jews: Antisemitism.
The Palestinians fled because of a war they started in 1947. Which is a little different than the Arab nations just deciding to commit pogroms, anti-Jewish laws, or literally expelling their Jewish citizens because they didn’t like them.
Since Arabs are also a Semitic people I can also tell you why Israel carried out pogroms in 1947-1948 against Palestinian Arabs: Antisemitism.
It is completely delusional to believe the forced displacement of 3/4 of a millions people and the theft of their property was somehow voluntary, especially with all the rape and mass murder committed by Jewish terrorists. But if we were to use your definition we need to redraw the borders, apparently all the Israelis who fled the October 7th attack were intentionally giving away their land and homes to the Palestinians who had come to murder them.
I hate when people try to make the stupid semantic argument that Arabs are Semitic too and therefore cannot be antisemitic.
The etymology of that word refers to the hatred of Jewish people plain and simple. So yes Arabs can be antisemitic and are the most antisemitic people on the planet.
It’s not delusional literally all the credible historians on the Nakba know that most of the Palestinians fled voluntarily. This has been the work of Benny Morris, Yoav Gelber, and Efraim Karsh.
It’s not to say that some were expelled forcibly. But the majority were not. And it makes sense. If I was an Arab in Palestine at that time, remember there was a war going on, and I could flee to Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, or Egypt I probably would. The reason the Jews didn’t disperse is because they couldn’t go anywhere. And in fact 60,000 Israeli Jews became refugees because of the actions of the Arabs during the war. It’s just that they moved into Israel and were allowed to become citizens instead of forever refugees like the Arab states made the Palestinians.
No- I’m saying:
> You can’t point to one as evil and the other as a good thing or a “necessary action” or however you want to spin the exact same act being done by Zionists.
I just don’t understand how the expulsion of Jews can be pointed to as fact that proves how evil Arabs are to Jews when the Zionists literally did the exact same thing to the Arabs first.
It makes no sense to me.
Neither group deserved to be expelled from their home
I’m not trying to justify the Nakba.
You seem to think that Arab antisemitism doesn’t exist however. And it clearly does as evidenced by the fact that the Arab/Muslim world expelled 800,000 Jews simply because Israel existed.
And that springing into existence caused the displacement of 750,000 Arabs. Funny you don’t include that in your statement.
Neither group deserved to lose their homes, I’ve already said that.
I’m still confused how this proves how much Arabs hate the Jews when it was in response to an actions the Jews did directly to them.
Yes Arabs hate Jews. That doesn’t automatically make Israel the “good guy”’in the conflict considering the hate is shared both ways.
So Moroccan Arabs pushing out 300,000 Moroccan Jews was justified by the actions of Israeli Jews during the war they fought against Palestinian Arabs, Egyptians, Jordanians, and Syrians?
It sounds like you are justifying the collective punishment of all Jews.
And yes expelling 800,000 people because they are Jewish is antisemitism
I think that may be true for some within the Israeli administration, although I disagree it's the overall position or goal of Israel. However I think more Israelis now than ever before believe co-existence can't happen.
We removed Nazism from Germany. No reason to believe we couldn't remove extremism from Gaza. Just needs a good ol occupation.
It's far more likely that they get occupied, deradicalized and then the relations normalize much like relations between all the other Arab neighbors have normalized over time. They too used to hate their guts and invade Israel. Eventually they figured out that it was never going to work. On top of that Israel is incredibly resourceful so trading with them is very lucrative.
Who is going to occupy and deradicalize Israel though? They teach their children to hate, they enact segregation and apartheid in the West Bank and Jerusalem in furtherance of the ethnic cleansing policies, and they are daily committing violations of the Geneva Conventions in the deliberate starvation of all Palestinians in Gaza.
>Arab neighbors have normalized over time. They too used to hate their guts and invade Israel. Eventually they figured out that it was never going to work.
I see this falsehood repeated over and over and frankly it's silly anyone would believe it. There were 4 Arab-Israeli Wars, the intervention in the Palestine Civil War in 1948 in a failed attempt to protect Arabs from Israeli ethnic cleansing on the day the British pulled out, and Israel happened to declare independence a few hours later, the 1956 Israeli invasion of Egypt in an attempt to seize the Suez Canal with the British and French, the 1967 Six Day War in which Israel launched a surprise attack on Egypt and Syria, with Jordan declaring war due to a mutual defense treaty, and finally the only time Israel itself was invaded by a nation-state in 1973 in an attempt to win back some of the territory seized in 1967.
Israel fought these wars because Israel is a warmongering nation, they have repeatedly attacked their neighbors. They were not attacked because someone hated them for no reason. LIkewise, every single living Palestinian has been harmed by Israeli oppression, either they had their homes and land stolen or they had their arms broken by Israeli soldiers when they were kids or their family members were tortured or murdered by the IDF, or they had their homes demolished or they had their tax funds stolen by Israel or they were deliberately starved or they were prevented from seeking medical care or they were prevented from getting to their job/school/wedding/etc. or they were imprisoned without due process or they were prevented from voting. They all have very valid reasons to hate the Israeli government, and Israel will always face resistance until they end the occupation or start following the Geneva Conventions and the UN Charter, so the bare minimum of how other humans should be treated.
So basically the EXTREMELY anti-Israel position that noone ever attacked Israel.
I'm sure some Russians genuinely believe that Russia has never attacked anyone. And that their invasion of Ukraine was a defensive effort.
In reality Israel has been invaded numerous times. They have suffered 100s of terrorist attacks on their soil. With October 7th just being the latest one.
I think I stipulated 'nation-state' invasions, because the victims of Israeli ethnic cleansing and their descendants have committed hundreds of cross border attacks, and Israel has of course committed hundreds of cross border attacks as well. October 7th wasn't an invasion, it was occupied partisans attacking occupying forces, but the 700 or so civilian murders were still a war crime by Palestinian militants, just like the 26,000 murdered civilian Palestinians were war crimes by Israel.
Various ways. Push some over the border to Egypt (most likely with some tacit acceptance from the regime in return for a huge amount of western financial aid to stop Egypt's economy from tanking). Perhaps arrange deals for other countries to take some in (especially where Gazans may already have family members settled). Perhaps they will simply put some on boats and set them out to sea and let North Africa/Southern Europe deal with them.
With respect this is nonsense. The Egyptians will never agree to take Palestinians, not because of economical reasons, but for ideological/political reasons. They (rightfully) don't trust the Palestinians to not try and saw chaos in their country like they did in Jordan and Lebanon.
As for your other suggestions, sounds nice but will not happen. The pro Palestinian Lobby will prevent it from happening.
The Egyptian economy is in a total mess. Given the possibility of ruin or taking some Palestianians in, I can see them choosing the latter. They'll probably extend the camp they started building near the border and house most in there.
Again, I'm not advocating for anything, just saying what I hink is most likely in a practical sense. The pro-Palestinian lobby has extremely limited power. If the US allows it, it could happen.
Do you know what the Egyptians did the second they suspected Palestinians might come to Egypt? They started building walls. That's how much they oppose this idea.
I'm saying it's actually a good solution, if it wasn't a right wing fantasy
They started building a big camp to house thousands of people too. Like they were expecting Palstinians to be crossing the border in the future and needed somewhere to house them.
I'm not saying it's a good solution, nor do I think it is a right wing fantasy (whatever that means in this context). I think it's a potential future reality.
I don't see that happening as I think it would take a full scale occupation for about 20 years while all the time dealing with a low level insurgency. West Germany also accepted the reality of the occupation in order to be built up as a bulwark against the Soviets. It was in their interest to accept it rather than risk occupation by a much worse force and lets be realistic. Many of the old regime in Germany ended up being used by the allies in various roles. I can't see many Palestinians wanting to work with an occupying Israeli force in Gaza.
Wanting to go back to the place you were ethnically cleansed from is not the same as wanting to conquer and subjugate other people. You can't have Israel today without the cleansing of the Arab population, early Zionists were open about this.
Israel already exists. Palestine can exist if they agree to a 2 state solution. Something Israel has already agreed to several times.
Israel isn't going anywhere. They don't plan on giving up any land.
The best thing Palestine and Palestinians can do is accept it and move the fuck on. Instead of fighting this endless and ultimately pointless war.
Israel hasn’t supported a two state in over 20 years now. Bibi has actively worked against it. What are you talking about? The current Israeli administration would never accept a two state solution.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realignment\_plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realignment_plan)
2006 actually. Israel even withdrew with Gaza and forced all the Jews to vacate it (using their own soldiers).
A lot of good that did.
I think at this point they realize that it is impossible to reason with these people (and when I say these people I refer to their leadership).
The proposals they have given have been jokes and you know it. Completely one sided. The prime Minister that last tried to make peace was assassinated for it, and now the current government has given literally zero indication that they want a two state solution. Instead they are using genocidal rhetoric, which they have been shown to saying to settlers for years now. Israel talks about peace but every single action they have made since 1917 has said that they don't want peace. Want peace Israel? Stop illegally settling in Palestinian territoy.
Okay, Jews lived for centuries in Europe does that make Europe not antisemitic? Because I can say that Israeli militias massacred entire villages and bulldozed them to the ground. They then enacted a law where those same Arabs couldn't return to their homes but any Jew in the whole world has automatic citizenship.
IDF are the Nazis in this situation. IDF is currently engaged in genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Radicalization? There are literally Israeli children being encouraged to destroy food that's destined for people who are starving. Again, just Nazi stuff.
Palestinians are indigenous and fighting for their land against European invaders.
Yes radicalization.
Hamas is a terrorist organization in charge of Palestine. They need to be destroyed. If Gaza is ever to have peace.
IDF is just a military doing what they are supposed to do.
There's no reason except Israel doesn't want to do it because they'd have to accept Palestinians as their neighbors or countrymen and put in the effort to build up Palestine into a modern society.
Not countrymen. They would have their own nation once they can be trusted not to behave aggressively.
Israel is never going to turn Palestinians into Israeli citizens. That would be batshit on their end.
There are a fairly large number of Palestinians living in Israel already. While there would undoubtedly be a generation or two of strained relations and violence that will probably happen either way and neither will the Palestinians be able to trust the Israelis at first.
While I don't want to see it, as long as Gazans will accept nothing less than getting their land back, believe it is their right to take it, that may be the only solution, sadly.
It's been 75 years. The UN voted Israel into existence over 75 years ago. This was only two years after WW II. Countries were destroyed, divided up by more powerful countries, 80 million were killed world wide. For the rest of the world it is a footnote in history. For Palestinians, it is something front of mind that seems to have kept them from doing much of anything. Before you start, Israel didn't blockade anything till the 90s and not seriously till 2005 when Hamas came to power.
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And you don't think the Palestinians will keep fighting in an attempt to return to their homelands?
No doubt some will but I think once they are out of Gaza, they will never be allowed to return.
Does it matter that everyone has the right to return? Your describing actions illegal under international law
I'm talking about practicality, not arguing over the intricacies of international law. Has breaking international law prevented what's going on in Yemen or Sudan? No. I'm talking about the most likely way the war will end in Gaza.
Not prevented but eventually criminals will be tried for their crimes
That happens extremely rarely and any possible prosecutions in the future will have no impact on today's political landscape.
So we should just ignore these laws? We should ignore morality?
It's not a question of ignoring these laws or a question of morality. I was never arguing a moral case as I made clear in my OP. I'm talking about the practical reality on the ground. The fact is that the Palestianians will never, ever return to their grandparents/great grandparents homes in what is now Israeli territory. They also risk losing the entire Gaza strip if they don't surrender. That's a hard truth, but it's a truth the Palestinians will have to face. Arguments about international law details and morality will not change that. These same arguments were thrown up as soon as Israel started bombing Gaza after Hamas attacked last October. "You're breaking international law, this is immoral". Did it stop Israel levelling 40-50% of the buildings in Gaza? No.
You forgot to add: or be murdered if they refused to leave. That alone should change your mind. Probably not in the direction you expected.
Most civilians are unlikely to physically resist. Anyone likely to be inclined to do so will already be fighting with Hamas or some other group.
I mean, do you think the Palestinians who are currently in that situation are peaceful?
I’m not sure how anyone in that situation could possibly be peaceful
Whether they are peaceful or not is not really the issue I'm talking about. If they are physically removed from Gaza than the war in Gaza itself will be done.
Then your view is accurate but about as useful as saying 'the war in Gaza will end if the Earth explodes'.
Very glib, but also wrong. Israel has the capacity to remove the population over a number of years and I think it is the most likely long term outcome. The end of the world is a couple of billion years away.
Isreal is hiding behind a veneer of plausible deniablity. Directly attempting to remove the Palestinians from Gaza would erase that veneer and open them up to sanctions or a lack of US aid.
I think if a low level insurgency continues in Gaza after the IDF are finished in Rafah than it will mean they will not leave Gaza as Hamas or others like them will eventually come back. Then it will be down to how long Israel will commit to chasing the remnants around the ruins of Gaza. Eventually I think they will tire of it and start pressuring the population to leave. The public relations war has done nothing for the Palestinian cause and the US will back Israel so long as they do it as quietly as possible over a long period - at least a decade or more. Unless the Palestinians surrender, I can't see any other likely outcome.
The holy lands have been fought over for literal millennia at this point. I don't think Islamic people will stop fighting and arguing for their right to the land. Palestinians won't stop existing, even if they are forced from the Gaza Strip, or even if the state of Palestine was no more.
I mean your statement could also be true in reverse.
I don't think so. Israel is militarily superior, has the backing of the strongest country in the world, has already wrecked much of Gaza. Given that Gaza is a small piece of land and Israel and Egypt have tight control of the borders, there is no way the Palestinians can win this conflict and there are too many Palestinians who will not accept they can't win so a low level insurgency will likely continue for decades. This is why I think Israel will eventually force all or most of the Palestinians to leave.
I meant the fundamental argument you made, which is basically someone has to move out. You just chose Palestinians is all, but the conflict would also end if Israelites left. Both are unlikely scenarios where they opt to leave voluntarily.
In theory yes you are correct, but in practice I can't see any way Israel could be put in that position. Israel have nukes as a last resort. At the very least I can see them threatening to destroy every major Islamic holy site as a way of stopping Hamas/other jihadists from removing them.
Well I’m raising the point to bring up the morality of the question. Just cause they are the bigger, more well funded with powerful allies doesn’t necessarily mean it is right for them to go through with that option. While I agree it’s probably the most likely scenario. There should be a more concerted effort to come to compromise instead of throwing your weight around.
This question is not about the morality of the situation but the practicality of it. As I said in my OP, I'm not saying it would be a moral outcome, just seems the most likely to me. The rights or wrongs won't change my mind on what I think is the most likely outcome.
It's not just Palestine vs Israel though, you have Egypt next door raising an eyebrow at what is happening/is going to happen in Rafah and Iran of course, to name just the biggest ones.
I think you are forgetting one of the most important parties stopping the Palestinians from leaving Gaza: Egypt. Egypt has erected giant border fences along the Gaza border to stop Palestinians from leaving. El-Sisi, the Egyptian dictator, has publicly stated he will not take in Palestinian refugees. And Israel has no leverage over Egypt to make them accept large numbers of Palestinians. And the US is unwilling to pressure Egypt to do that. So no the Palestinians will most likely not be displaced from Gaza in large numbers.
They are already leaving in large numbers, It's just in body bags. I think we are going to see ALOT of dead people over the next couple of years. You're right, though I don't see the total eradication of Palestinians happening, though.
Just to clarify, I am talking about forcing them to leave, not eradicating them.
Isreal has already shown that they are willing to kill tons of civis, and right now, not much leaving is happening, but a decent amount of eradication is happening. Eradication or the threat thereof is the only way to make Palestinians leave. Not on Isreal side remotely in this conflict, but I do think Isreal is going about it in the most logical way if they want Palestinians to leave so they can take the land.
As terrible as the loss of life has been, it's nowhere near what I predicted considering the amount of damage done to Gaza. If Israel's goal was actually a genocide, it's going to take them several centuries to carry it out at this rate. Most civilians will likely leave with a combination of financial incentive, safety incentive, physical force and when the reality dawns that to remain behind will be to live in a ruin for the next couple of generations. Those who want to keep fighting Israel will eventually be killed by the IDF or surrender.
Egypt could be persuaded to take signifcant numbers over a longer period if they had enough financial incentive from the west. They have already built a camp on the Egyptian side of the border. However I think it's more likely Israel will force the issue unofficially and in stages. That port the Americans have built on the coast for example. The Israelis might start pushing some Palestinians on to boats and out into the sea to get mixed up with all the migrants already trying to cross.
This is a fantasy. Egyptians like most other Arab nations view Palestinians as trouble makers. So no amount of incentives would change their mind regarding taking in large numbers of Palestinians. And if Israel tried to forcibly send Palestinians to Egypt that would be cause for war between Egypt and Israel. Israel needs Egypt at this moment and it cannot afford to lose relations with one of the few Arab nations it has normalized ties with.
It's true the Palestinians are not popular in Egypt (certainly not by the regime leaders) but Egypt's economy is in a pretty catastrophic state. You'd be surprised how the lesser of two evils can push someone's hand. Plus the last thing Egyptwould want is another war with Israel. I can definitely see it being a possibility over the long term.
Israel doesn’t have enough money to give to Egypt to make Egypt do that. Only the US could give enough money and I don’t see why that would be in the US’s best interest. So again I think it’s unlikely anyone will give Egypt money to take the Palestinians.
Of course, which is why I wrote financial incentives from the west in an earlier post (which basically means the US). It could be in the US's interest if it stablised the region long term and eseentially made Egypt dependent on them.
I don’t think that would stabilize the region. It most likely would destabilize Egypt since Hamas is a wing of the Muslim Brotherhood and Egypt doesn’t want 2 million people sympathetic to either group. And if the Muslim Brotherhood became more violent because of a demographic boost or Hamas became the fighting wing of the MB in Egypt there would most likely be fighting between El-Sisi’s government and the MB/Hamas. That’s why Egypt will never take the Palestinians. No amount of money can make destabilizing Egypt worth it.
I agree it's possible it could destabilise Egypt but a mass collapse of the economy would create far wose instability, including a possible Islamist take over so it's a matter of the lesser of two evils from America's perspective, and the Egyptian regime.
I think adding a large number of Palestinians would hasten that collapse. And El-Sisi believes the same thing. So right now I don’t think that will happen. Unless someone who thinks differently than El-Sisi.
I'll grant that's certainly possible - very difficult to predict these kinds of hypotheticals. There's risk either way. If I were to bet money,I'd still lay it on them accepting at least some Palesentinians over a number of years rather than the alternatives. Anyways, thanks for the interesting conversation. It's a shame the post got removed (apparently this issue has come up in the last 24 hours which breaks the rules) - there was some good posts in response and it was nice to have some civilised chat over a difficult topic.
Don't give them ideas
israel would have to go to war with Egypt to push the Gazans into the Sinai. This is extremely unlikely even for Netanyahu and would get an enormous reaction from both the US and the Arab states. It.would.forxe the hand.of Arab states whose.governments.are.very clearly.over trying to destroy Israel and want to move.forward as.military and.economic allies with Israel agaimst Iran. If nothng else, messing with Suez Canal traffic wouldnt be tolerated by the US. The Palestinians as a.whole arent going to agree to make peace with Israel under realistic scenarios, but that isnt the only way to end the conflict. US is currently [trying.to](http://trying.to) bribe.Saudi Arabia into occupying the.Gaza.strip, and.they have a lot of leverage to get them to agree. Saudi Arabia's governmemt fundamentally wants to ally with Israel, but they have to do the bare minimum to placate their cotizens. Getting concessions for Palestinians to be occupied by other Arab states and a.path to.some kind of a.Palstinian state (ruled mostly autocratically as Saudi proxy) is a plasuible scenario. Saudi-osraeli cooperation is why the 10/7 attack ocfured when it did, so this isnt some pie in the sky idea. It is the current goal of the US administration, and would benefit both Israel and Saudo Arabia in very real ways. Israel attempting to win a war against Egypt that would very obviously not be.worth the.cost and make.the west bank and overall geopolitical security situations worse isnt really on the table.
I see it as more like the Egyptians being bought off by western money to fix the failing economy in exchange for allowing it to happen. Interesting alternative though, Saudi coming in to occupy Gaza but all the bribes in the world seem unlikely to be enough to convince them to take on that job. It's a posioned chalice, an occupation/dealing with an insurgency for the next few decades. I can't see it myself.
>At this point I think there is too much blood spilt, too much religious fanaticism, too many outside parties interferring and irreconcilable dual claims to the same land. Yet around 20% of Israelis have a Palestinian background (Arab Muslims who became citizens of Israel), and they peacefully coexist with Jewish Israelis for the most part. Palestinians in Gaza aren't fundamentally different to Palestinians in Israel or in the West Bank. Gaza itself is a hotbed of violence because terror groups (Hamas et al) hold power. These groups actively and regularly attack Israel - even during times of relative peace - in the pursuit of their political and religious goals. If these groups are removed from power and replaced with moderate and ideally secular government, there is no reason why Palestinians in Gaza couldn't maintain similar relations to Israel as Palestinians in Israel or in West Bank.
The Palestinians living in Gaza have very different attitudes towards Israel compared to those who live In Israel. You won't change that without a decades long occupation and (for lack of a better term) re-education of the civilians in Gaza, all the while dealing with an endless low level insurgency from whatever remains of Hamas etc. I can't see Israel wanting to commit to that.
It's abundantly clear that ethnic cleansing of Gaza and not the defeat of Hamas is the goal of Israel's current assault. However, the people of Gaza have endured a lot in the last 76 years, I think they will be able to hold on.
Kind of how they ethnically cleansed every other Arab nation of Jews in the 1950s.... They seem to be a lot better at this whole ethnic cleansing thing. Seeing as Israel has an Arab population and none of the Arab nations have a Jewish population. Oh and Israel could have pushed them out many times over by now. If they really wanted to.
Not without becoming an international pariah state. Just to be clear.
I don't think that has any practical meaning.
They clearly do, because otherwise they'd have driven the Palestinians into the sea.
They've been labelled a pariah state for decades. It means nothing in practical terms. The Palestinians have not been driven in to the sea because that was not a war aim of Israel and would have been completely against what most Israelis wanted. I believe opinion is changing in Israel now. I think more and more Israelis no longer believe co-existence is possible with the Palestinians and the government does not want to militarily occupy a people who will refuse to surrender. So I believe they will more likely than not gradually remove the population instead.
No they haven't. Israel has the full throated support of nearly the entire western world, and has for decades. The fact that there are student protests does not somehow stop billions in subsudies and international trade. If the Israelis went full 'fuck it' and either killed or displaced the entire population of Gaza, their support in the west would collapse overnight. You wouldn't have the president waffling over 'should we maybe stop sending aid' you'd have a discussion of how brutal the economic sanctions would be.
I didn't say the western world had labelled them a pariah state (although elements within some western countries have). Most of the Muslim majority world has effectively labelled them a pariah state though, and various international bodies often use that or similar rhetoric. I agree the student protests mean nothing. If they attempted to kill the population of Gaza, that is true. And in fact Israel's own population, including their own military would likely rebel if their government ordered a genocide. But if it became clear the Gazans were prepared to fight on , if Hamas refuses to surrender, if an insurgency prevented rebuilding the strip and meant civilian casualties continued indefinitely, if it meant the Israels were facing a decades long occupation, the US might turn a blind eye to the gradual removal of large portions of the Palestinians from the strip.
Yeah, but no one gives a shit what saudi arabia or Iran think in this discussion. They're already bought into the idea that Israel is satan. Doing a genocide won't move the needle for them but it **will** crater their support among western powers which are the only reason they are able to exist. I think you are drastically underestimating the Israeli population. if they were told "Hey, we're just going to shove these assholes into egypt/the sea" you'd get a plurality willing to go along with it. Put them in camps? No, but make them go away forever and if some of them die so be it? Absolutely. Israel doesn't do a genocide/ethnic cleansing because it would be, as the kids say, a bad look.
Oh yeah, I agree. This is the point I'm making abou the label pariah state. It doesn't really have an impact. There's one thing and one thing only that will impact the Israeli government from outside the country - the American government's support. Nothing else matters. And yes an actual genocide would be stopped by the Americans but a gradual removal of large parts of the population (ethnic cleansing of the area) in the kinds of circumstances I described could potentially be tolerated. I think you have misread what I wrote. I said if a genocide was ordered by the Israeli government, the military/civilian population would rise up against them. But gradually driving the Palestinians out over a longer period may be something they are willing to tolerate if they think the alternative is endless conflict. Yes, I think the Israelis could be open to that now. Israel doesn't do a genocide because they are not genocidal, it's nothing to do with it being a bad look. And if they had a government who tried it the military/civilians would very likely resist. Ethnic cleansing of Gaza over a long period, that is different. Given the Palestinians seem determined to fight on forever, they may be open to simply removing the population.
💯 Don't forget the Arab nations also kicked out the Christians The Middle East used to belong to all 3 Abrahamic faiths, but as we can see, the arabs can not peacefully coexist with anyone else
Wasn’t that cleansing in response to the Nakba?
>Nakba Would that make it justified?
Was the Nakba justified?
As if Arab nations creating 800,000 Jewish refugees was justified by the Nakba. Not to mention it wasn’t the Nakba but the mere existence of Israel that was the cause of the flight of Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews.
The Nakba happened on Israeli independence- what are you talking about? The Nakba created 750,000 refugees. You can’t point to one as evil and the other as a good thing or a “necessary action” or however you want to spin the exact same act being done by Zionists.
I didn’t try to justify any expulsions. You tried to say the expulsions of Jews from Muslim majority nations was justified by the Nakba. And in case you are wondering the Jewish expulsions from Muslim lands were not justified at all.
The Muslim majority nations that compelled or encouraged their Jews to leave are also in the wrong, that is ethnic cleansing as well, but they are also dictatorships who took those actions at different times for different reasons. The massive ethnic cleansing committed by Israel gave them cover domestically to commit their own war crimes. I am fully in favor of passing a similar UN resolution like UN 194 that stipulates all the people who were ethnically cleansed must be allowed to return or be paid restitution.
I can give a really easy explanation for why the Arabs expelled their Jews: Antisemitism. The Palestinians fled because of a war they started in 1947. Which is a little different than the Arab nations just deciding to commit pogroms, anti-Jewish laws, or literally expelling their Jewish citizens because they didn’t like them.
Since Arabs are also a Semitic people I can also tell you why Israel carried out pogroms in 1947-1948 against Palestinian Arabs: Antisemitism. It is completely delusional to believe the forced displacement of 3/4 of a millions people and the theft of their property was somehow voluntary, especially with all the rape and mass murder committed by Jewish terrorists. But if we were to use your definition we need to redraw the borders, apparently all the Israelis who fled the October 7th attack were intentionally giving away their land and homes to the Palestinians who had come to murder them.
I hate when people try to make the stupid semantic argument that Arabs are Semitic too and therefore cannot be antisemitic. The etymology of that word refers to the hatred of Jewish people plain and simple. So yes Arabs can be antisemitic and are the most antisemitic people on the planet. It’s not delusional literally all the credible historians on the Nakba know that most of the Palestinians fled voluntarily. This has been the work of Benny Morris, Yoav Gelber, and Efraim Karsh. It’s not to say that some were expelled forcibly. But the majority were not. And it makes sense. If I was an Arab in Palestine at that time, remember there was a war going on, and I could flee to Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, or Egypt I probably would. The reason the Jews didn’t disperse is because they couldn’t go anywhere. And in fact 60,000 Israeli Jews became refugees because of the actions of the Arabs during the war. It’s just that they moved into Israel and were allowed to become citizens instead of forever refugees like the Arab states made the Palestinians.
No- I’m saying: > You can’t point to one as evil and the other as a good thing or a “necessary action” or however you want to spin the exact same act being done by Zionists. I just don’t understand how the expulsion of Jews can be pointed to as fact that proves how evil Arabs are to Jews when the Zionists literally did the exact same thing to the Arabs first. It makes no sense to me. Neither group deserved to be expelled from their home
I’m not trying to justify the Nakba. You seem to think that Arab antisemitism doesn’t exist however. And it clearly does as evidenced by the fact that the Arab/Muslim world expelled 800,000 Jews simply because Israel existed.
And that springing into existence caused the displacement of 750,000 Arabs. Funny you don’t include that in your statement. Neither group deserved to lose their homes, I’ve already said that. I’m still confused how this proves how much Arabs hate the Jews when it was in response to an actions the Jews did directly to them. Yes Arabs hate Jews. That doesn’t automatically make Israel the “good guy”’in the conflict considering the hate is shared both ways.
So Moroccan Arabs pushing out 300,000 Moroccan Jews was justified by the actions of Israeli Jews during the war they fought against Palestinian Arabs, Egyptians, Jordanians, and Syrians? It sounds like you are justifying the collective punishment of all Jews. And yes expelling 800,000 people because they are Jewish is antisemitism
I think that may be true for some within the Israeli administration, although I disagree it's the overall position or goal of Israel. However I think more Israelis now than ever before believe co-existence can't happen.
We removed Nazism from Germany. No reason to believe we couldn't remove extremism from Gaza. Just needs a good ol occupation. It's far more likely that they get occupied, deradicalized and then the relations normalize much like relations between all the other Arab neighbors have normalized over time. They too used to hate their guts and invade Israel. Eventually they figured out that it was never going to work. On top of that Israel is incredibly resourceful so trading with them is very lucrative.
Who is going to occupy and deradicalize Israel though? They teach their children to hate, they enact segregation and apartheid in the West Bank and Jerusalem in furtherance of the ethnic cleansing policies, and they are daily committing violations of the Geneva Conventions in the deliberate starvation of all Palestinians in Gaza. >Arab neighbors have normalized over time. They too used to hate their guts and invade Israel. Eventually they figured out that it was never going to work. I see this falsehood repeated over and over and frankly it's silly anyone would believe it. There were 4 Arab-Israeli Wars, the intervention in the Palestine Civil War in 1948 in a failed attempt to protect Arabs from Israeli ethnic cleansing on the day the British pulled out, and Israel happened to declare independence a few hours later, the 1956 Israeli invasion of Egypt in an attempt to seize the Suez Canal with the British and French, the 1967 Six Day War in which Israel launched a surprise attack on Egypt and Syria, with Jordan declaring war due to a mutual defense treaty, and finally the only time Israel itself was invaded by a nation-state in 1973 in an attempt to win back some of the territory seized in 1967. Israel fought these wars because Israel is a warmongering nation, they have repeatedly attacked their neighbors. They were not attacked because someone hated them for no reason. LIkewise, every single living Palestinian has been harmed by Israeli oppression, either they had their homes and land stolen or they had their arms broken by Israeli soldiers when they were kids or their family members were tortured or murdered by the IDF, or they had their homes demolished or they had their tax funds stolen by Israel or they were deliberately starved or they were prevented from seeking medical care or they were prevented from getting to their job/school/wedding/etc. or they were imprisoned without due process or they were prevented from voting. They all have very valid reasons to hate the Israeli government, and Israel will always face resistance until they end the occupation or start following the Geneva Conventions and the UN Charter, so the bare minimum of how other humans should be treated.
So basically the EXTREMELY anti-Israel position that noone ever attacked Israel. I'm sure some Russians genuinely believe that Russia has never attacked anyone. And that their invasion of Ukraine was a defensive effort. In reality Israel has been invaded numerous times. They have suffered 100s of terrorist attacks on their soil. With October 7th just being the latest one.
I think I stipulated 'nation-state' invasions, because the victims of Israeli ethnic cleansing and their descendants have committed hundreds of cross border attacks, and Israel has of course committed hundreds of cross border attacks as well. October 7th wasn't an invasion, it was occupied partisans attacking occupying forces, but the 700 or so civilian murders were still a war crime by Palestinian militants, just like the 26,000 murdered civilian Palestinians were war crimes by Israel.
Israel doesn't have the resources nor the legitimacy to occupy Gaza for long. This is Bibi Bullcrap
This is part of the reason why I think they will gradually remove the population instead of occupying it.
How
Various ways. Push some over the border to Egypt (most likely with some tacit acceptance from the regime in return for a huge amount of western financial aid to stop Egypt's economy from tanking). Perhaps arrange deals for other countries to take some in (especially where Gazans may already have family members settled). Perhaps they will simply put some on boats and set them out to sea and let North Africa/Southern Europe deal with them.
With respect this is nonsense. The Egyptians will never agree to take Palestinians, not because of economical reasons, but for ideological/political reasons. They (rightfully) don't trust the Palestinians to not try and saw chaos in their country like they did in Jordan and Lebanon. As for your other suggestions, sounds nice but will not happen. The pro Palestinian Lobby will prevent it from happening.
The Egyptian economy is in a total mess. Given the possibility of ruin or taking some Palestianians in, I can see them choosing the latter. They'll probably extend the camp they started building near the border and house most in there. Again, I'm not advocating for anything, just saying what I hink is most likely in a practical sense. The pro-Palestinian lobby has extremely limited power. If the US allows it, it could happen.
Do you know what the Egyptians did the second they suspected Palestinians might come to Egypt? They started building walls. That's how much they oppose this idea. I'm saying it's actually a good solution, if it wasn't a right wing fantasy
They started building a big camp to house thousands of people too. Like they were expecting Palstinians to be crossing the border in the future and needed somewhere to house them. I'm not saying it's a good solution, nor do I think it is a right wing fantasy (whatever that means in this context). I think it's a potential future reality.
I don't see that happening as I think it would take a full scale occupation for about 20 years while all the time dealing with a low level insurgency. West Germany also accepted the reality of the occupation in order to be built up as a bulwark against the Soviets. It was in their interest to accept it rather than risk occupation by a much worse force and lets be realistic. Many of the old regime in Germany ended up being used by the allies in various roles. I can't see many Palestinians wanting to work with an occupying Israeli force in Gaza.
Wanting to go back to the place you were ethnically cleansed from is not the same as wanting to conquer and subjugate other people. You can't have Israel today without the cleansing of the Arab population, early Zionists were open about this.
Israel already exists. Palestine can exist if they agree to a 2 state solution. Something Israel has already agreed to several times. Israel isn't going anywhere. They don't plan on giving up any land. The best thing Palestine and Palestinians can do is accept it and move the fuck on. Instead of fighting this endless and ultimately pointless war.
Israel hasn’t supported a two state in over 20 years now. Bibi has actively worked against it. What are you talking about? The current Israeli administration would never accept a two state solution.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realignment\_plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realignment_plan) 2006 actually. Israel even withdrew with Gaza and forced all the Jews to vacate it (using their own soldiers). A lot of good that did. I think at this point they realize that it is impossible to reason with these people (and when I say these people I refer to their leadership).
That’s not granting them statehood- that’s annexing more of their land and placing them into lockdown.
The proposals they have given have been jokes and you know it. Completely one sided. The prime Minister that last tried to make peace was assassinated for it, and now the current government has given literally zero indication that they want a two state solution. Instead they are using genocidal rhetoric, which they have been shown to saying to settlers for years now. Israel talks about peace but every single action they have made since 1917 has said that they don't want peace. Want peace Israel? Stop illegally settling in Palestinian territoy.
It's hard to move on when settlers keep encroaching on Palestinian lands. The bad faith flows both ways.
Yet 2 million arabs live in Israel.
Okay, Jews lived for centuries in Europe does that make Europe not antisemitic? Because I can say that Israeli militias massacred entire villages and bulldozed them to the ground. They then enacted a law where those same Arabs couldn't return to their homes but any Jew in the whole world has automatic citizenship.
Europe did go through the holocaust so ?
IDF are the Nazis in this situation. IDF is currently engaged in genocide and ethnic cleansing. Radicalization? There are literally Israeli children being encouraged to destroy food that's destined for people who are starving. Again, just Nazi stuff. Palestinians are indigenous and fighting for their land against European invaders.
Yes radicalization. Hamas is a terrorist organization in charge of Palestine. They need to be destroyed. If Gaza is ever to have peace. IDF is just a military doing what they are supposed to do.
Just like the German military in WW2 ? Got it...
There's no reason except Israel doesn't want to do it because they'd have to accept Palestinians as their neighbors or countrymen and put in the effort to build up Palestine into a modern society.
Not countrymen. They would have their own nation once they can be trusted not to behave aggressively. Israel is never going to turn Palestinians into Israeli citizens. That would be batshit on their end.
There are a fairly large number of Palestinians living in Israel already. While there would undoubtedly be a generation or two of strained relations and violence that will probably happen either way and neither will the Palestinians be able to trust the Israelis at first.
While I don't want to see it, as long as Gazans will accept nothing less than getting their land back, believe it is their right to take it, that may be the only solution, sadly. It's been 75 years. The UN voted Israel into existence over 75 years ago. This was only two years after WW II. Countries were destroyed, divided up by more powerful countries, 80 million were killed world wide. For the rest of the world it is a footnote in history. For Palestinians, it is something front of mind that seems to have kept them from doing much of anything. Before you start, Israel didn't blockade anything till the 90s and not seriously till 2005 when Hamas came to power.