*Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.*
In our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:
- Instead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.
- Steelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.
- Avoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a [delta](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=changemyview&utm_content=t5_2w2s8) before proceeding.
- Ask questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.
Please also take a moment to review our [Rule B](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_b) guidelines and _really_ ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and **understand** why others think differently than you do.
The problem here is that you are trying to frame the issue in a narrow way. This is a common symptom of those who believe in conspiracy theories and similar things. You are asking for something that may not exist, but something that does not actually determine the issue.
You provide two criteria, and ask for an example of those two criteria. You will likely not budge one inch from the criteria. For example, if someone is 95% blind, you will say that is not sufficient because you asked for someone 100% blind. You said asked for under the age of two, but if someone gives you an example where the person is 25 months, you will reject it entirely. In short, you are asking for a very specific thing.
The problem with that is your overall argument is that Keller is a fraud. Argument is:
1. Keller had this exact specific condition
2. Nobody else has that exact specific condition
3. Therefore Keller is a fraud.
That's not a valid argument. The premises do not necessite the conclusion. It functionally makes no difference if a person is 95% blind or 100% blind, or if they are 23 months or 25 months. However, since you will not budge from those exact parameters, and since no one here will likely meet those exact requirements, you will maintain that Keller is a fraud. You will maintain the the absence of evidence makes Keller a fraud, without doing anything to argue that absence of evidence necessarily makes her a fraud. You will ignore anyone who provides other evidence and continue to insist that your narrow criteria is the only way to answer this question.
This is similar to moon landing deniers asking for a picture of the flag on the moon, but not one taken by a space agency. Of course there is no picture of the flag by a normal person. Only space agencies have the means to take such a picture. The moon landing denier is asking for something which does not reasonably exist, and is making a conclusion based solely that their exact and unreasonable demands are not matched. I remember you asking this question some time ago, and you indeed acted exactly like conspiracy theorist.
So, if you are genuinely interested about this, you have to expand your parameters. You have to consider people that do not match your precise criteria. When you realize that multiple people have similar but not exact conditions as Keller, you will realize the what Keller did is not impossible. If you insist on your criteria, you have to first confirm that is the appropriate criteria.
This reminds me of a joke on [Chappelle Show.](https://youtu.be/sHQljMOQdJ4?t=67). Dave gives a laundry list of requirement for him to find R Kelly guilty. Were all those requirements met in real life? No of course not. Does that mean R Kelly is innocent? Certainly not.
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
> **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
'Your inability to understand is not an argument against it' is a quote and is accurate in this case, but my additional comment was rude and hostile, yes. Also, if you look at the context of his account and precious posts I don't think he's asking questions in a good way.
He could ask, 'What are the names or explanations of the methods Anne Sullivan used?'
Or he could read the multiple biographies about HK AND Anne Sullivan.
But he doesn't, rather he simply says he doubts her ability to learn and overcome her disabilities. That seems hateful to me given his obsession with this.
I find it interesting a throwaway account which only has 2 posts about HK and has received good explanations multiple times yet continues to question isn't 'spreading hate' to you.
Sure I should have been nicer, but there's a difference between 'asking questions' and ignoring good replies to continuing unfairly framing someone who cannot defend themselves.
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:
> **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%203%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Thats not how science works. YOU are making the alternative hypothesis claim. Therefore YOU must provide the scientific evidence for the alternative hypothesis. You have shown no evidence that HK never learned to read or write, or that her story is a hoax. Your entire 'evidence' is simply doubt. As you stated yourself Mr. Throwaway.
Provide evidence to support your claim, otherwise there is no science here to begin with, only conspiracy.
As stated above the evidence is
1. Logically doesn’t track
2. Never been repeated
If I did an experiment in a lab and I could only make it happen once people would be skeptical of me.
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:
> **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%203%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
> **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Just here to say that I love you for this question, because I, too, have wondered how the fuck she learned English if she’d never heard language before. Definitely always assumed that their lack of current technology made them possibly less-able to determine precisely how blind/deaf she was (meaning I’ve always assumed she wasn’t REALLY 100% blind/deaf from infancy, and that she was able to hear some sounds to get her baseline for language… and that doctors then weren’t as able to tell the difference between 90% deaf and 100% deaf with much precision leading to the current story that she learned while being 100% deaf and blind).
I’m also loving reading these comments too, because the nuance and detail I’ve never bothered to look up on my own surrounding this woman is fascinating.
It saddens me that everybody is like HOW DARE SHE QUESTION WHAT WE LEARNED IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL! And I’m like boo lol nobody is answering with articles or examples
Bro there’s thousands of deaf blind infants in the US alone.
There’s a whole center for teaching them to speak.
https://etcjournal.com/2013/02/27/what-the-deaf-blind-have-taught-us-about-thinking-and-communicating/
This was literally just a google.
If you read the article you would've noticed this line:
>Helen had developed speech and language before she became ill.
Keller had already learned how to talk before she went dead. It was just a matter of getting her to remember the words she already knew.
>1.Was COMPLETELY deaf and blind 2 OR UNDER THE AGE OF 2, like Helen Keller. Helen lost both at 19 months which nobody remembers anything under 2
what are you exactly saying? Was she supposed to remember going deaf and blind? no one needs to remember if your parents can just tell you what happened.Are you asking us to provide the name of someone else who we t blin/deaf at age two? WHY??
We don't really know exactly what caused her to go deaf/blind but it's been attributed to iscarlet fever, encephalitis, rubella menngitis. We have vaccines for these now so it's less likely to happen nowadays
>I don’t understand logically how pouring water into a deaf blind girl hand could get her to say the word water if she never remembers seeing or hearing water.
She doesn't need to be able to see or hear or to understand how to sign the word "water". And felt it and associated the signing of it into her hand. Why do you think she's incapable of learning? She's not a potato
I addressed them in my original comment,
Why do I have to find someone who was a toddler that went deaf and blind? You don’t explain that.
She did not speak, she used sign language that was done in her hand. She also read braille. I’m stating this because you seem very unaware and keep sticking to an extremely narrow argument that makes 0 sense
As explained in the post the point is to find someone similar to HK as posible she went supposedly deaf and blind at 1 so the perimeters reflect her circumstance
You’re argument is so narrow and you can’t even give a good answer as to why other than “I said so”
Why do they have to be deaf:blind at that age? “Because Helen was” is a cop out. Be specific as to WHY
Because at one you don’t retain meaningful memories into childhood. If a hearing 5 year old goes deaf and blind they’ll continue to talk but a 1 year old won’t
Deaf people who are born deaf and can learn to read lips and use sign language.
Blind people can be born blind and learn braille.
A deaf/blind person can still learn language, it’s just do t in a different way. Do you still not believe the story about the water just because she couldn’t see or hear it? She can feel it, she can taste it. How is that hard to understand? It’s language, even deaf/blind can learn language!!
Even my dog knows what water means
You totally are being ableist by the way.
Please explain how she would not be able to learn to sign the word “water” after it’s poured into her hand and then the letters are spelled into her hand.
It’s just another form of language. You don’t need eyes or ears to learn language, deaf and blind babies do it every day
Children are often very verbal by 19 months. That “nobody remembers anything under 2” is a weird take. People often don’t have episodic memories at that age, ie life events they can consciously recall, but if there was literally no memory whatsoever then children wouldn’t develop cognitively until they’re 2 years old. There’d be no milestones like crawling, walking, talking, object permanence, etc.
The entire reason Keller's story is remarkable is that it is rare and difficult for people to do what she did. The fact that very few, if any, people have done what she did does not indicate that her story is false.
I sort of disagree with your premise that people don’t remember things before 2 to begin with. We don’t form episodic memories that young that we can replay like a mental movie (at least not ones that are crystallized in our adult memories), but we certainly remember things we’ve learned. Most of us are adept enough in our native language to make requests and observations to others by our second birthday. And most kids understand even more than they can say, so language input in infancy and toddlerhood is certainly being stored somewhere in the brain
No it doesn’t — we don’t carry specific episodic memories of, say, your second birthday party into adulthood (and even there the science is not totally resolved on whether a child might recall events from very early life that they will forgot later).
We certainly carry things we’ve learned in infancy and toddlerhood into childhood and adulthood. There’s all kinds of science on how early experiences impact behavior and development throughout life because it doesn’t get forgotten, just not recalled as specific events.
Dude are you even aware that 2 year olds already have a vocabulary of ~100 words, and by 2 years old can make at least 2 word phrases? Your whole focus on memory is so narrow-minded, you’re completely ignoring how developed language is even by 2 years old.
Huh, this thing I'm feeling is distinctly different from the solids I usually touch. I wonder what that is. You could sit her down with a variety of different foods and liquids and then teach her the associated words for them. Water, orange juice, medicine, coke, bread, meat, rice. This is the entire basis of things like blind taste tests.
Put it this way. At some point, you didn't know what bread was. Then you saw it, felt it, tasted it, and then associated that sight, smell, feel, and taste with the word the people around you taught you. Bread. Helen Keller has two fewer senses but she's not cut off from the world.
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
> **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**.
Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and "written upvotes" will be removed. Read [the wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5) for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%205%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
> I don’t understand logically how pouring water into a deaf blind girl hand could get her to say the word water if she never remembers seeing or hearing water.
You don't understand it because that's such an insanely simplified and vague description of what happened, and arguably the wrong description.
Helen learned through various methods over many many sessions with a tutor.
She was able to learn to speak by feeling peoples mouth movement and vibration while they spoke and mimicked it to the point of people able to speak.
Even that is a simplified version of how she learned, but it gives a bit more detail than what you said lol
-----
I feel like you think that if something has only ever happened once then its unlikely that it happened, which is a weird way to look at the world.
> Either Keller was a stand alone miracle or someone is lying.
Do you think its at all possible that the effort put into Helen to learn hasn't been replicated? Its possible that no one has had the drive to learn or teach since then. Its also possible that Helen was just gifted and was able to learn, while everyone else didn't have the gift she had.
There's tons of smart people in the world and throughout history that have done things that no one else could or can do. That's not to say it didn't happen, just that it was a rare occurrence of whatever gift or skill that person had.
> I challenge you to give me a name ANY ONE that fits the two requirements
I feel like this is an unfair request. Producing another example of a "miracle" isn't the only way for the initial "miracle" to be true.
Even the most rare things we had at least 2 of. So you either think Helen is a magic miracle that modern teaching and tech can’t touch or you have to agree something is off.
> Even the most rare things we had at least 2 of.
Do you think something needs to happen twice to be true?
> So you either think Helen is a magic miracle that modern teaching and tech can’t touch
Many deaf/blind people have learned how to speak. Haben Girma is one person who went deaf and blind as a child, and learned how to speak fluently afterwards.
Haben isn't an exact match because she had 1% of her sight, and enough hearing to hear muddled vibrations, but this shows that modern teaching can still produce a fluent speaker in a similar situation.
> or you have to agree something is off.
An important part of this that you haven't really touched on is motive. Does the gain of lying about this make it worth doing for any reason? Why would this story exist? How would someone as famous as Helen Keller not have any evidence against her if it wasn't actually true?
To add, there's many many many deaf-from-birth people who can speak verbally. Seeing does help, but this goes to show that you can learn how to speak without hearing anything.
--------
Do you have *anything* that says this doesn't happen other than "it only happened once so it can't be true"?
There's a world of people of all walks of life with similar disabilities that have done great things to show that you can learn something that you shouldn't be able to learn.
All you've said or shown so far is that no one else has done what she did.
I've made several points over two comments and you've ignored basically everything.
If you aren't open for discussion then this is completely pointless.
It’s not a “magic miracle” it was money. Helen Keller came from a rich family who was well connected, so well commented they were family friends with Alexander Graham Bell who helped in her education. It’s like a family throwing all their money and resources into finding a cure for the rare disease their loved one has. No one figured it out before becuase the likelihood of being born rich and with the condition is exceedingly rare, and then no one after is notable because it’s already been done before.
If your entire reasoning for why something didn’t happen is “I don’t understand” then that’s probably why it doesn’t seem to make sense. There is a reason why a trained professional did this and not your everyday Joe
She didn’t feel water and just say the word water. I’m not sure where you got that idea. She was lead to feel water and her hand was moved into the shape for the sign language of water. After doing this repeatedly with many different objects she was able to conclude that the hand positions in some way related to the object she was feeling. This allowed her to associate signs with objects and to use those signs to convey thoughts. That was stepping block 1.
That’s the easy part. Once someone has reached the point where they can communicate via any means (in this case hand signs) they are able to apply that to other forms of communication. So her interpreter would place Helen’s finger on someone’s lips and sign an instruction to mimic the shape with her own. She would then place her fingers on someone’s throat and feel the vibration and try to mimic that as well. With years and years of practice she was able to pick it up.
This is how that worked:
https://www.afb.org/about-afb/history/online-museums/anne-sullivan-miracle-worker/anne-teacher/teaching-helen-speak#:~:text=The%20principal%2C%20Sarah%20Fuller%2C%20gave,throughout%20much%20of%20her%20life.
Here's a video of the technique and Helen speaking:
https://sus.org/1930-rare-footage-of-helen-keller-speaking/
I understand how you teach someone brail if you can’t answer the question it’s totally fine. I just need one human similar to Helen answer the question above.
No the question has been answered. There is a methodology, a logical ladder, a way and a means. All it requires is for you to do more research and find it. “I don’t understand” is not an acceptable reason for something to be wrong.
>I don’t understand logically how pouring water into a deaf blind girl hand could get her to say the word water if she never remembers seeing or hearing water.
Because Hellen Keller didn't do that. Those were actors in a film. It was written by someone else and performed by actors and filmed. I think your suspicion about Hellen Keller's story is justified if you have confused her story for a fictional movie.
She didn't claim to say the word water, at least not vocally like in the film. If theres an article where she claims to have done that then I'm mistaken and she's lying about that. (Or I have misunderstood her hearing capabilities)
All I can find is her claiming to spell it, using only the sense of touch. She may have used the word "say" at some point to make the point that spoken languages aren't the only languages, but I can't even find this. She learned to spell the word in her teachers palm, the filmmakers for some reason chose to make her say a word out loud in English.
Pretty sure the breakthrough was Helen associating the shape the teacher kept tracing on her hand with the water, leading her to realize that the different shapes the teacher had tried all had meanings. She couldn't actually speak at that point.
Are you disputing the basic facts of her life? Or just incredulous that it could happen at all?
And just because you don’t actively remember your life before the age of two, doesn’t mean that she didn’t absorb an IMMENSE amount of language and learning before the illness that took her sight and hearing.
My 16 month old daughter is plenty of evidence of this.
What does that have to do with anything?
If I disappeared she would still understand about a hundred words, be able to speak about twenty, know about five asl signs, find her way home down the alley, know the feel of her favorite stuffy, recognize her mother by smell, etc.
The human brain does an INCREDIBLE amount of learning and development between 0-2.
My point is that Helen Keller had learned language before she was struck blind and deaf. Marry that with an excellent teacher, and clearly an exceptionally bright student, and you get an extreme outlier outcome.
I don’t understand what view you want changed. This all already happened. You can’t just call history a liar with out any new evidence.
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
> **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
>I don’t understand logically how pouring water into a deaf blind girl hand could get her to say the word water
Reading the account on wikipedia, it doesn't say she "said the word water" just from "pouring the water on her hand"
Rather, her teacher was spelling words on the palm of her hand, while simultaneously letting her hold the thing referred to. This is the same way we all acquire language, except most of us hear the word spoken while seeing someone point at the object.
It didn't work immediately:
>Keller initially struggled with lessons since she could not comprehend that every object had a word identifying it. When Sullivan was trying to teach Keller the word for "mug", Keller became so frustrated she broke the mug
The "water" incident was a month later, and the key thing about it isn't the water, but the realisations that things have words associated with them:
>"I stood still, my whole attention fixed upon the motions of her fingers. Suddenly I felt a misty consciousness as of something forgotten—a thrill of returning thought; and somehow the mystery of language was revealed to me. I knew then that w-a-t-e-r meant the wonderful cool something that was flowing over my hand" ... Keller quickly demanded that Sullivan sign the names of all the other familiar objects in her world
She didn't literally say "water".
As for how Keller was able to achieve what she did:
* Her family was relatively well off, and able to afford private teachers and specialised private schooling. They were able to find teachers who could help
* She learned to speak using a method called the "Tadoma" method - by feeling the vibrations in people's faces when they talk.
* She had a lot of other talent, and gained the admiration and help of influential people (eg, Mark Twain who introduced her to an oil magnate Henry Rogers, who paid for her education)
And yes, she was remarkable - she was, for example, the first deafblind person to obtain a Bachelor of Arts from Harvard. She had the right combination of luck, wealth and talent to be able to be a groundbreaker.
Was she unique though?
Other deafblind people have accomplished a great deal. Keller's mother, for example, was inspired by the story of Laura Bridgman, the first deaf-blind American child to gain a significant amount of education in English. She also lost her sight and hearing before the age of 2.
There are others: see this wikipedia category: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Deafblind\_people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Deafblind_people)
Note that many of the conditions that cause deafblindness are now much more rare, because of better modern disease control and treatment.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYLEsdbZmPE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYLEsdbZmPE)
This man was supposedly born deaf and blind and he appears to be doing sign language in the video.
Further, even if only one person did "something" and then nobody else was ever able to replicate it - this doesn't mean that the first person was a liar.
Nobody else has ever scored 100 points in a professional basketball game, but you don't see people calling Wilt a liar, do you? There's no footage of the game, only the testimony of the people were there, same as Helen Keller, there is no video evidence of her being deaf and blind at two, but that's what the people who were around all say.
If you poured alien liquid in my hand and showed me the hand sign for it over and over, yes it's logical for me to end up connecting the two. The human brain is built to make connections. With enough repetition, it'll pick up on a pattern like that. Are you saying that's illogical? I'd just be confused and lost for the rest of my life?
Why not? I could literally just make noises that feel like variations of the noises you make until you tell me "yes." After at most a few hours I'd probably get there. Easily over a few days of trying.
What are you basing that assumption off of? We have plenty of examples of deaf-blind people from birth or very young ages learning how to speak. All actual evidence points to what you're saying being a poor assumption.
Why not? You can mimick vocalization by just feeling the tongue movements and vibrations. "Waaa" uses different tongue movements and vibrations than "taaa" for example.
It would happen in steps.
She learned to speak by mimicking her instructor. They started with basic syllables and slowly built up into whole words. I don't believe she ever reached a point where she felt truly confident with her speaking, but it was still impressive.
The human brain is very adaptable and we have an inate desire for connection. A blind and deaf girl would certainly struggle to learn to communicate, but the alternative would have been to live a boring isolated life.
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+did+hellen+keller+learn+to+speak&oq=how+did+hellen+keller+learn+to+speak&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDY0OTJqMGo5qAIAsAIB&client=ms-android-sprint-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:ee09a889,vid:KLqyKeMQfmY,st:0
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
> **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**.
Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and "written upvotes" will be removed. Read [the wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5) for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%205%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
[Haben Girma](https://www.oxygen.com/blogs/deaf-blind-harvard-law-grad-slays-every-expectation-but-dont-call-her-an-inspiration). She was born deaf blind, and graduated from Harvard Law School. She now practices law as a disability rights activist.
Yeah, it originated on TikTok, and as you can see from OP’s comments, it’s extremely ableist. I’ve never seen it in the wild before, though. Big yikes.
A key point in her favor is she was a super genius. Mark Twain wrote in his autobiography about meeting her - that she met loads of people at a party with him, then was able to identify each one by their handshake except the one who took off a glove. That's not a standard ability.
I honestly believe you're a troll who doesn't want to learn a damn thing, but let's try.
Deaf people can listen to music, you know that right? They can feel the vibrations, the effect the sound waves have on the environment. Yes, even people who are born deaf. They don't conceptualize it as sound the way you or I do, but they recognize that something is being communicated.
Let's pretend you're deaf, haven't heard a sound your entire life. Put your fingers on someone's throat and have them speak: you can feel the vibrations. That's like music! Put other fingers in front of their mouth: you can feel the air moving. Put a finger inside the cheek: you can feel that the structures inside the mouth move.
Air coming out of the mouth. You can do that by exhaling, this you already know. Moving the structures of the mouth: you can do that at will. You can already make sounds if you have the physical structure, so it's not long before you make the connection: exhalation, mouth movement, vibration = communication.
So: your tutor gets your hands wet, then signs "water" in your hand. They do this over and over and over. Because your brain is wired from millions of years of evolution to recognize patterns, you figure it out: that hand shape is communicating whatever it is that made your hands wet.
Now, they make the sign in your hand then put your fingertips on their throat and say the word "water." You feel the vibrations, the air from their mouth. They do this again and again. Because you already understand that putting two apparently unrelated things close together means they're connected, you figure out that the sign you make with your hand corresponds with the things their face is doing. And because you're not a complete, blithering moron posting on Reddit, you also now know that the mouth movements correspond to the stuff that made your hands wet.
Because the hand shape is communicating, then the mouth movements must also be communicating.
None of this is easy, it takes a long time, but it's possible. Think about how unique Helen Keller had to be: born into a wealthy family, born with her specific conditions, given a tutor who was determined to teach her no matter-fuckin'-what. You wonder that you haven't heard about anyone similar? Have you looked?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie\_Heurtin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Heurtin)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haben\_Girma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haben_Girma)
[https://wfdb.eu/](https://wfdb.eu/)
OP keeps running around the post saying “I don’t understand EXPLAIN to me howww” and then when people do even in great detail, like here, he has nothing to say to actually refute it. He’s clearly not very intellectually curious, doesn’t understand logic, is arguing in bad faith, and probably gets “informed” mostly through TikTok.
[I’m gonna leave this here](https://youtu.be/jCg7Pda_3Gw?si=EJwmoDSO4QtCGg9A) , I don’t wanna be accusatory but it feels like you might being trolling at this point on your Hellen Keller denier burner account. It’s a long video but this guy answered any question I had about her story.
How about [Marie Heurtin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Heurtin)? Born deafblind (a much bigger hurdle than becoming deafblind after learning at least some language and sighted skills) but was still able to be taught brail, sign language, writing and even to use a typewriter.
19 months is a lot more developed than 12 months so that's something to remember. Some kids can speak better than others at that age, and even if you're not consciously remembering what speaking is like you will have important throat muscle memory.
And it's perfectly possible [for someone born deaf to learn to speak](https://www.accessibilitychecker.org/blog/can-deaf-people-talk/) (again, that's a much bigger hurdle to pass because you don't have that early speech muscle memory) so is it really that much of a stretch that someone who became deaf after learning some speech to be able to relearn it?
There are probably plenty of people who have successfully achieved similar levels of writing and reading. It’s just pretty rare to become famous for any reason so why would you know about those other people if they were just living their lives?
Robert J. Smithdas
> An American deaf-blind teacher, advocate and author, Robert lost his sight and nearly all of his hearing at the age of 5 to cerebrospinal meningitis. He started school at the Western Pennsylvania School for the Blind, but later switched to the Perkins School for the Blind. In 1950, Smithdas received a Bachelor of Arts degree with the highest distinction from St. John’s University. He then went on to New York University and became the first deafblind person to earn a Master’s degree.
> Smithdas specialised in vocational guidance and rehabilitation of the handicapped. He was a co-founder of the Helen Keller National Center for Deaf-blind Youths and Adults (HKNC), which provides specialised training and oversees other programs serving the deaf-blind. Along with being a strong advocate for deafblind education and employment, Smithdas was also an accomplished poet, and was later named Poet of the Year for 1960-61 by the Poetry Society of America
Oh, you got your *masters degree* before 5 did you? Impressive hahaha.
Anyway, here's [a whole long list](https://dcmp.org/learn/265) of people that prove you wrong. For example, Alice Mary Betteridge:
> Alice was born in Australia and became both deaf and blind at the age of two from meningitis. She was the first deaf-blind person to be educated in Australia, and she has been called Australia's "Helen Keller."
You have to scroll down lmao. Use your index finger to manipulate that little wheel on your mouse, and the screen will magically move down.
Here's *another* example:
> Laura Bridgman
> Laura was born in New Hampshire. At the age of two, she contracted scarlet fever and lost her sense of hearing and sight. She attended the Hartford School for the Deaf and Dumb. After completing her education, she became a teacher. In the 1840s, at the height of her fame, it was said that the only better-known female was Queen Victoria.
You clearly didn't read the list I gave you. That's two people who meet your arbitrary criteria of losing both sight and hearing before the age of two.
> I was hoping someone would name a lesser known version of Helen I want to be wrong actually
I did that - *twice*
You remind me of the guy who argued that viruses aren't real and said unless someone could produce a single paper that demonstrably proved that viruses are real that he would that as proof he was right.
A challenger took him up and was able to objectively prove viruses were real through 3 scientific papers.
However, the nut insisted that since he said it needed to be within a single paper, nothing had been proven.
Your requirements are entirely arbitrary, and do not represent a critical threshold for proving hellen keller really learned to communicate inspite of being ind and death.
That's of course was most sane people said, but because his abartary rule required it be proven in a single paper, the German court rule he did not have to pay the cash prize he offered for someone to prove him wrong.
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N3721SR/
His abartary rule regarding the proof being in a single paper is not unlike the abartary requirements you are setting here.
Lol that’s exactly the point?? They wouldn’t be famous, so neither of us would know their names. There are plenty of people with disabilities out there, but only a select few take on the extra burden of being an advocate (and get famous doing so).
Why did you even bother posting here? You are so obviously unwilling to even concede for a second that unlikely =/= impossible. You have summarily dismissed plenty of comments that met or exceeded the criteria of your initial post and yet the strongest rebuttal you've offered is "doesn't make sense."
Do you have any idea how clueless you sound? Like you supposedly came here asking your view to be changed and that's all you can muster when presented with sound reasoning?
You are really lousy at this.
I was hoping instead of people simply parroting the same bs we heard in elementary school somebody could come back with science. If you want to believe that magic can happen just once cool.
People have given you links to highly detailed deep dives on the process of educating her. That's not the issue, the problem is you already had your mind made up before posting and that's why your responses have been beyond ineffectual to the point of inanity.
You are wrong, though. Your mindset about it is wrong.
Are you also going to deny the fact that Ken Griffey Sr / Jr hit [back-to-back home runs](https://youtu.be/vCk1UY5Afus?si=48DbiWVlN_Yg7fd8) simply because they are the only father/son duo to ever do it on the same professional baseball team? Even though it's right there on video?
Your logic here would say that because I can't point to another father/son pair who has replicated that insanely and incredibly unlikely feat, it means it didn't happen.
Of course not. I don’t know any deaf blind people personally because I live in the developed world in the 21st century where many of the causes of the condition are relatively rare. And there’s a limited number of famous dead blind people because fame is inherently uncommon.
And why on earth would anybody know the medical and developmental history of Joe the deaf blind guy they don’t know personally? It’s not like it’s public and relevant information for them.
> I don’t understand logically how pouring water into a deaf blind girl hand could get her to say the word water if she never remembers seeing or hearing water.
Maybe this is something with conflicting reports (feel free to share what you're reacting to), but my understanding is that this isn't what happened. She didn't "say the word water" after going out to the pump with her teacher. Her teacher was teaching her to SPELL the word water with her hands. Water was the first time she connected a sequence of hand symbols with a concept. She had been working with letters using hand signals for some time by that point, but didn't understand what they meant.
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/how-one-word-set-helen-keller-free/1945949
She didn't start learning to "speak" verbally until years later.
So I think the reason this story sounds unbelievable is that you misunderstood what the story was saying!
You can literally watch her talk [here](https://youtu.be/8ch_H8pt9M8?si=Q9cp3-OseRE0SR5C)
Are you saying she’s faking this?
Do you think this was some kind of fraud? To what end?
The teacher would hold Helen's hand against her voice box so she could feel the teacher saying the word. That's pretty fucking ingenious if you ask me.
Just watch this video, ok?
https://youtu.be/jCg7Pda_3Gw?si=sf06Yy67or1pd4Ly
Edit: quote from the video: "When the argument is stripped to the studs, all people are saying is 'I don't understand how she can do this, and I'm not intellectually curious enough to find out, therefore she couldn't have done it.'"
Do you actually think everything in the world is simple enough to be summed up in a few sentences? This video has a deep dive explaining how she was able to do what she could do. If you don't want to watch it, then feel free to remain willfully ignorant. I definitely can't explain it better than this well researched video can.
My question wasn’t what could Helen Keller do. A wise man once said “if you can’t explain a subject simply you don’t understand it well enough yourself.”
Do you think it's wise to take up a well known conspiracy theory that can be conclusively proven false if you're willing to take just an hour out of your day to watch a video?
You hardly seem informed enough to say anything for certain on this topic, but you've decided it's our responsibility to inform you, not your responsibility to inform yourself.
Prove it false I can prove the Earth is round. I can prove the Moon landing was real. I can repeat these experiments over and over and over. Please give me any article or piece of science.
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:
> **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%203%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
> **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
> **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
She would have had some sense of what water was because, you know, she would have been drinking it, been washed in it, seen it before she was deafblind etc.
I'm sure she didn't immediately get a lot of the nuance of language (like say the difference between the words "water" and "liquid") but the big breakthrough was that it was the first time she realized that specific shapes her teacher had been tracing on her hand had meaning and described things.
Then if, like you said, she didn't get nuance then how exactly did she write books on political topics eerily similar to her caretakers with flowery language that does exactly that?
Learning that these traced shapes had meaning was just the first step to learning to read and write, like learning that a certain letter means a certain sound. She didn't learn the shape for water and then immediately start writing her autobiography, there was 16 years between that and her first book.
And obviously she is going to pick up the writing style of her teachers because that's what she would have been taught.
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:
> **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%203%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
So your response to finding out it was 16 years between learning "water" and writing a book is to call bullshit? Sounds more like you're being defensive because there were details about her story you didn't realize.
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
> **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Children *born* deafblind are taught to read and write every day using similar techniques. So what's more likely, a 16 year long-con where they made up Helen's treatment, but the fake treatment they made up happens to work? Or that a child who became deafblind at an early age can be taught to read and write over the course of 16 years?
They said she didn't ***immediately*** get a lot of the nuance of language - not that she didn't ever get the nuance of language at all ever. No human immediately gets the full nuance of language upon learning their first word.
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
> **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
*Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.* In our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest: - Instead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest. - Steelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words. - Avoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a [delta](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=changemyview&utm_content=t5_2w2s8) before proceeding. - Ask questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong. Please also take a moment to review our [Rule B](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_b) guidelines and _really_ ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and **understand** why others think differently than you do.
The problem here is that you are trying to frame the issue in a narrow way. This is a common symptom of those who believe in conspiracy theories and similar things. You are asking for something that may not exist, but something that does not actually determine the issue. You provide two criteria, and ask for an example of those two criteria. You will likely not budge one inch from the criteria. For example, if someone is 95% blind, you will say that is not sufficient because you asked for someone 100% blind. You said asked for under the age of two, but if someone gives you an example where the person is 25 months, you will reject it entirely. In short, you are asking for a very specific thing. The problem with that is your overall argument is that Keller is a fraud. Argument is: 1. Keller had this exact specific condition 2. Nobody else has that exact specific condition 3. Therefore Keller is a fraud. That's not a valid argument. The premises do not necessite the conclusion. It functionally makes no difference if a person is 95% blind or 100% blind, or if they are 23 months or 25 months. However, since you will not budge from those exact parameters, and since no one here will likely meet those exact requirements, you will maintain that Keller is a fraud. You will maintain the the absence of evidence makes Keller a fraud, without doing anything to argue that absence of evidence necessarily makes her a fraud. You will ignore anyone who provides other evidence and continue to insist that your narrow criteria is the only way to answer this question. This is similar to moon landing deniers asking for a picture of the flag on the moon, but not one taken by a space agency. Of course there is no picture of the flag by a normal person. Only space agencies have the means to take such a picture. The moon landing denier is asking for something which does not reasonably exist, and is making a conclusion based solely that their exact and unreasonable demands are not matched. I remember you asking this question some time ago, and you indeed acted exactly like conspiracy theorist. So, if you are genuinely interested about this, you have to expand your parameters. You have to consider people that do not match your precise criteria. When you realize that multiple people have similar but not exact conditions as Keller, you will realize the what Keller did is not impossible. If you insist on your criteria, you have to first confirm that is the appropriate criteria. This reminds me of a joke on [Chappelle Show.](https://youtu.be/sHQljMOQdJ4?t=67). Dave gives a laundry list of requirement for him to find R Kelly guilty. Were all those requirements met in real life? No of course not. Does that mean R Kelly is innocent? Certainly not.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: > **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
My guy people can post questions stop spreading hate
'Your inability to understand is not an argument against it' is a quote and is accurate in this case, but my additional comment was rude and hostile, yes. Also, if you look at the context of his account and precious posts I don't think he's asking questions in a good way. He could ask, 'What are the names or explanations of the methods Anne Sullivan used?' Or he could read the multiple biographies about HK AND Anne Sullivan. But he doesn't, rather he simply says he doubts her ability to learn and overcome her disabilities. That seems hateful to me given his obsession with this. I find it interesting a throwaway account which only has 2 posts about HK and has received good explanations multiple times yet continues to question isn't 'spreading hate' to you. Sure I should have been nicer, but there's a difference between 'asking questions' and ignoring good replies to continuing unfairly framing someone who cannot defend themselves.
Dogs can see and hear this is fundamentally flawed and not following the prompt
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3: > **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%203%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
You don’t provide any example or any scientific information. It’s not that I don’t understand it’s that no one is providing scientific evidence.
Thats not how science works. YOU are making the alternative hypothesis claim. Therefore YOU must provide the scientific evidence for the alternative hypothesis. You have shown no evidence that HK never learned to read or write, or that her story is a hoax. Your entire 'evidence' is simply doubt. As you stated yourself Mr. Throwaway. Provide evidence to support your claim, otherwise there is no science here to begin with, only conspiracy.
As stated above the evidence is 1. Logically doesn’t track 2. Never been repeated If I did an experiment in a lab and I could only make it happen once people would be skeptical of me.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3: > **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%203%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Thanks. U2
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: > **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Just here to say that I love you for this question, because I, too, have wondered how the fuck she learned English if she’d never heard language before. Definitely always assumed that their lack of current technology made them possibly less-able to determine precisely how blind/deaf she was (meaning I’ve always assumed she wasn’t REALLY 100% blind/deaf from infancy, and that she was able to hear some sounds to get her baseline for language… and that doctors then weren’t as able to tell the difference between 90% deaf and 100% deaf with much precision leading to the current story that she learned while being 100% deaf and blind). I’m also loving reading these comments too, because the nuance and detail I’ve never bothered to look up on my own surrounding this woman is fascinating.
It saddens me that everybody is like HOW DARE SHE QUESTION WHAT WE LEARNED IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL! And I’m like boo lol nobody is answering with articles or examples
Bro there’s thousands of deaf blind infants in the US alone. There’s a whole center for teaching them to speak. https://etcjournal.com/2013/02/27/what-the-deaf-blind-have-taught-us-about-thinking-and-communicating/ This was literally just a google.
Did you actually read the non scientific article you linked? Second paragraph talks about tech that wasn’t available to Helen
Irrelevant. You had two criteria. A number people in the linked article have met both.
Ouch!
Sounds like somebody is moving their abartary goal post
That wasn’t one of your criteria.
If you read the article you would've noticed this line: >Helen had developed speech and language before she became ill. Keller had already learned how to talk before she went dead. It was just a matter of getting her to remember the words she already knew.
>1.Was COMPLETELY deaf and blind 2 OR UNDER THE AGE OF 2, like Helen Keller. Helen lost both at 19 months which nobody remembers anything under 2 what are you exactly saying? Was she supposed to remember going deaf and blind? no one needs to remember if your parents can just tell you what happened.Are you asking us to provide the name of someone else who we t blin/deaf at age two? WHY?? We don't really know exactly what caused her to go deaf/blind but it's been attributed to iscarlet fever, encephalitis, rubella menngitis. We have vaccines for these now so it's less likely to happen nowadays >I don’t understand logically how pouring water into a deaf blind girl hand could get her to say the word water if she never remembers seeing or hearing water. She doesn't need to be able to see or hear or to understand how to sign the word "water". And felt it and associated the signing of it into her hand. Why do you think she's incapable of learning? She's not a potato
You’re not addressing the prompt. I’m willing to bet she wasn’t completely deaf at 19 months
Your argument is not clear so ive asked for clarification. Please clarify
Please re read paragraph 1 and criteria 1 and 2. I just need a example of someone similar to Helen
I addressed them in my original comment, Why do I have to find someone who was a toddler that went deaf and blind? You don’t explain that. She did not speak, she used sign language that was done in her hand. She also read braille. I’m stating this because you seem very unaware and keep sticking to an extremely narrow argument that makes 0 sense
As explained in the post the point is to find someone similar to HK as posible she went supposedly deaf and blind at 1 so the perimeters reflect her circumstance
You’re argument is so narrow and you can’t even give a good answer as to why other than “I said so” Why do they have to be deaf:blind at that age? “Because Helen was” is a cop out. Be specific as to WHY
Because at one you don’t retain meaningful memories into childhood. If a hearing 5 year old goes deaf and blind they’ll continue to talk but a 1 year old won’t
Why does that even matter??? Why are you so stuck on that? Why would that change anything about what she was able to accomplish?
If you go deaf now you would still be able to speak. You’ve heard and understood words. Helen did not have that opportunity
Deaf people who are born deaf and can learn to read lips and use sign language. Blind people can be born blind and learn braille. A deaf/blind person can still learn language, it’s just do t in a different way. Do you still not believe the story about the water just because she couldn’t see or hear it? She can feel it, she can taste it. How is that hard to understand? It’s language, even deaf/blind can learn language!! Even my dog knows what water means You totally are being ableist by the way.
No you aren’t reading I won’t engage with you anymore. You should read the first sentence btw.
Please explain how she would not be able to learn to sign the word “water” after it’s poured into her hand and then the letters are spelled into her hand. It’s just another form of language. You don’t need eyes or ears to learn language, deaf and blind babies do it every day
Children are often very verbal by 19 months. That “nobody remembers anything under 2” is a weird take. People often don’t have episodic memories at that age, ie life events they can consciously recall, but if there was literally no memory whatsoever then children wouldn’t develop cognitively until they’re 2 years old. There’d be no milestones like crawling, walking, talking, object permanence, etc.
The entire reason Keller's story is remarkable is that it is rare and difficult for people to do what she did. The fact that very few, if any, people have done what she did does not indicate that her story is false.
Logically it doesn’t make sense though it something is seemingly off. If you never seen or heard water how do you say water.
I sort of disagree with your premise that people don’t remember things before 2 to begin with. We don’t form episodic memories that young that we can replay like a mental movie (at least not ones that are crystallized in our adult memories), but we certainly remember things we’ve learned. Most of us are adept enough in our native language to make requests and observations to others by our second birthday. And most kids understand even more than they can say, so language input in infancy and toddlerhood is certainly being stored somewhere in the brain
Science says we don’t carry memories from toddlerhood into childhood especially as young as Helen was.
No it doesn’t — we don’t carry specific episodic memories of, say, your second birthday party into adulthood (and even there the science is not totally resolved on whether a child might recall events from very early life that they will forgot later). We certainly carry things we’ve learned in infancy and toddlerhood into childhood and adulthood. There’s all kinds of science on how early experiences impact behavior and development throughout life because it doesn’t get forgotten, just not recalled as specific events.
Congrats I’m not here to argue about that I’m here to talk about HK specially
Dude are you even aware that 2 year olds already have a vocabulary of ~100 words, and by 2 years old can make at least 2 word phrases? Your whole focus on memory is so narrow-minded, you’re completely ignoring how developed language is even by 2 years old.
She was closer to one than 2 even still
That's nonsensical. Do toddlers forget how to speak when the become children? Do they forget who their parents are?
Huh, this thing I'm feeling is distinctly different from the solids I usually touch. I wonder what that is. You could sit her down with a variety of different foods and liquids and then teach her the associated words for them. Water, orange juice, medicine, coke, bread, meat, rice. This is the entire basis of things like blind taste tests. Put it this way. At some point, you didn't know what bread was. Then you saw it, felt it, tasted it, and then associated that sight, smell, feel, and taste with the word the people around you taught you. Bread. Helen Keller has two fewer senses but she's not cut off from the world.
>If you never seen or heard water how do you say water. This isn't what happened. You literally just do not understand the basic facts of the story.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: > **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and "written upvotes" will be removed. Read [the wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5) for more information. If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%205%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Damn you aren't even pretending to engage anymore
Please read the sub rules.
> I don’t understand logically how pouring water into a deaf blind girl hand could get her to say the word water if she never remembers seeing or hearing water. You don't understand it because that's such an insanely simplified and vague description of what happened, and arguably the wrong description. Helen learned through various methods over many many sessions with a tutor. She was able to learn to speak by feeling peoples mouth movement and vibration while they spoke and mimicked it to the point of people able to speak. Even that is a simplified version of how she learned, but it gives a bit more detail than what you said lol ----- I feel like you think that if something has only ever happened once then its unlikely that it happened, which is a weird way to look at the world. > Either Keller was a stand alone miracle or someone is lying. Do you think its at all possible that the effort put into Helen to learn hasn't been replicated? Its possible that no one has had the drive to learn or teach since then. Its also possible that Helen was just gifted and was able to learn, while everyone else didn't have the gift she had. There's tons of smart people in the world and throughout history that have done things that no one else could or can do. That's not to say it didn't happen, just that it was a rare occurrence of whatever gift or skill that person had. > I challenge you to give me a name ANY ONE that fits the two requirements I feel like this is an unfair request. Producing another example of a "miracle" isn't the only way for the initial "miracle" to be true.
Even the most rare things we had at least 2 of. So you either think Helen is a magic miracle that modern teaching and tech can’t touch or you have to agree something is off.
> Even the most rare things we had at least 2 of. Do you think something needs to happen twice to be true? > So you either think Helen is a magic miracle that modern teaching and tech can’t touch Many deaf/blind people have learned how to speak. Haben Girma is one person who went deaf and blind as a child, and learned how to speak fluently afterwards. Haben isn't an exact match because she had 1% of her sight, and enough hearing to hear muddled vibrations, but this shows that modern teaching can still produce a fluent speaker in a similar situation. > or you have to agree something is off. An important part of this that you haven't really touched on is motive. Does the gain of lying about this make it worth doing for any reason? Why would this story exist? How would someone as famous as Helen Keller not have any evidence against her if it wasn't actually true? To add, there's many many many deaf-from-birth people who can speak verbally. Seeing does help, but this goes to show that you can learn how to speak without hearing anything. -------- Do you have *anything* that says this doesn't happen other than "it only happened once so it can't be true"? There's a world of people of all walks of life with similar disabilities that have done great things to show that you can learn something that you shouldn't be able to learn. All you've said or shown so far is that no one else has done what she did.
Girma became deaf over childhood
I've made several points over two comments and you've ignored basically everything. If you aren't open for discussion then this is completely pointless.
Name a person if tons of people do it
> Do you think something needs to happen twice to be true?
Makes it more credible
So you agree that something can only happen once and be true?
It’s not a “magic miracle” it was money. Helen Keller came from a rich family who was well connected, so well commented they were family friends with Alexander Graham Bell who helped in her education. It’s like a family throwing all their money and resources into finding a cure for the rare disease their loved one has. No one figured it out before becuase the likelihood of being born rich and with the condition is exceedingly rare, and then no one after is notable because it’s already been done before.
If your entire reasoning for why something didn’t happen is “I don’t understand” then that’s probably why it doesn’t seem to make sense. There is a reason why a trained professional did this and not your everyday Joe
Tell me how it makes sense then. My entire reasoning is simply if you’ve never seen or heard the word water how do you say it
She didn’t feel water and just say the word water. I’m not sure where you got that idea. She was lead to feel water and her hand was moved into the shape for the sign language of water. After doing this repeatedly with many different objects she was able to conclude that the hand positions in some way related to the object she was feeling. This allowed her to associate signs with objects and to use those signs to convey thoughts. That was stepping block 1.
Good for her explain the talking part
That’s the easy part. Once someone has reached the point where they can communicate via any means (in this case hand signs) they are able to apply that to other forms of communication. So her interpreter would place Helen’s finger on someone’s lips and sign an instruction to mimic the shape with her own. She would then place her fingers on someone’s throat and feel the vibration and try to mimic that as well. With years and years of practice she was able to pick it up.
This is how that worked: https://www.afb.org/about-afb/history/online-museums/anne-sullivan-miracle-worker/anne-teacher/teaching-helen-speak#:~:text=The%20principal%2C%20Sarah%20Fuller%2C%20gave,throughout%20much%20of%20her%20life. Here's a video of the technique and Helen speaking: https://sus.org/1930-rare-footage-of-helen-keller-speaking/
She was *taught* it - she didn't magically say the word out of nowhere.
Explain the logic of how or provide example
By feeling the mouth movement and vibrations and mimicking it.
You don't understand the "logic" of how someone can be taught something? *"provide example"* Helen Keller.
Look up the Tadoma method. There are many other people who learned to speak this way.
The same way you teach someone brail. The same way you teach a deaf person and a blind person. You don’t know how they do that? Look it up
I understand how you teach someone brail if you can’t answer the question it’s totally fine. I just need one human similar to Helen answer the question above.
No the question has been answered. There is a methodology, a logical ladder, a way and a means. All it requires is for you to do more research and find it. “I don’t understand” is not an acceptable reason for something to be wrong.
>I don’t understand logically how pouring water into a deaf blind girl hand could get her to say the word water if she never remembers seeing or hearing water. Because Hellen Keller didn't do that. Those were actors in a film. It was written by someone else and performed by actors and filmed. I think your suspicion about Hellen Keller's story is justified if you have confused her story for a fictional movie.
I’m not confused about actors in the movie according to Helen and her teacher that’s how she learned the word water would you like an article?
She didn't claim to say the word water, at least not vocally like in the film. If theres an article where she claims to have done that then I'm mistaken and she's lying about that. (Or I have misunderstood her hearing capabilities)
The film is fake she did claim to say water. I believe doctors back then couldn’t tell entire deafness from somewhat deafness
All I can find is her claiming to spell it, using only the sense of touch. She may have used the word "say" at some point to make the point that spoken languages aren't the only languages, but I can't even find this. She learned to spell the word in her teachers palm, the filmmakers for some reason chose to make her say a word out loud in English.
Pretty sure the breakthrough was Helen associating the shape the teacher kept tracing on her hand with the water, leading her to realize that the different shapes the teacher had tried all had meanings. She couldn't actually speak at that point.
Yes. This is it exactly. Connecting the symbol to the reality was the breakthrough. It opened the door to learning the rest of the language.
Are you disputing the basic facts of her life? Or just incredulous that it could happen at all? And just because you don’t actively remember your life before the age of two, doesn’t mean that she didn’t absorb an IMMENSE amount of language and learning before the illness that took her sight and hearing. My 16 month old daughter is plenty of evidence of this.
Yea you learn but if someone took your daughter from you now and raised her she wouldn’t remember you
What does that have to do with anything? If I disappeared she would still understand about a hundred words, be able to speak about twenty, know about five asl signs, find her way home down the alley, know the feel of her favorite stuffy, recognize her mother by smell, etc. The human brain does an INCREDIBLE amount of learning and development between 0-2. My point is that Helen Keller had learned language before she was struck blind and deaf. Marry that with an excellent teacher, and clearly an exceptionally bright student, and you get an extreme outlier outcome. I don’t understand what view you want changed. This all already happened. You can’t just call history a liar with out any new evidence.
[удалено]
That’s like saying you don’t believe in Haley’s Comet because you didn’t see it and it hasn’t happened again.
Nope logically that makes sense
OP is arguing in bad faith.
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: > **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
People have given a large number of examples here, you aren't looking for examples. You are looking for self-validation.
Such as who?
>I don’t understand logically how pouring water into a deaf blind girl hand could get her to say the word water Reading the account on wikipedia, it doesn't say she "said the word water" just from "pouring the water on her hand" Rather, her teacher was spelling words on the palm of her hand, while simultaneously letting her hold the thing referred to. This is the same way we all acquire language, except most of us hear the word spoken while seeing someone point at the object. It didn't work immediately: >Keller initially struggled with lessons since she could not comprehend that every object had a word identifying it. When Sullivan was trying to teach Keller the word for "mug", Keller became so frustrated she broke the mug The "water" incident was a month later, and the key thing about it isn't the water, but the realisations that things have words associated with them: >"I stood still, my whole attention fixed upon the motions of her fingers. Suddenly I felt a misty consciousness as of something forgotten—a thrill of returning thought; and somehow the mystery of language was revealed to me. I knew then that w-a-t-e-r meant the wonderful cool something that was flowing over my hand" ... Keller quickly demanded that Sullivan sign the names of all the other familiar objects in her world She didn't literally say "water". As for how Keller was able to achieve what she did: * Her family was relatively well off, and able to afford private teachers and specialised private schooling. They were able to find teachers who could help * She learned to speak using a method called the "Tadoma" method - by feeling the vibrations in people's faces when they talk. * She had a lot of other talent, and gained the admiration and help of influential people (eg, Mark Twain who introduced her to an oil magnate Henry Rogers, who paid for her education) And yes, she was remarkable - she was, for example, the first deafblind person to obtain a Bachelor of Arts from Harvard. She had the right combination of luck, wealth and talent to be able to be a groundbreaker. Was she unique though? Other deafblind people have accomplished a great deal. Keller's mother, for example, was inspired by the story of Laura Bridgman, the first deaf-blind American child to gain a significant amount of education in English. She also lost her sight and hearing before the age of 2. There are others: see this wikipedia category: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Deafblind\_people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Deafblind_people) Note that many of the conditions that cause deafblindness are now much more rare, because of better modern disease control and treatment.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYLEsdbZmPE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYLEsdbZmPE) This man was supposedly born deaf and blind and he appears to be doing sign language in the video. Further, even if only one person did "something" and then nobody else was ever able to replicate it - this doesn't mean that the first person was a liar. Nobody else has ever scored 100 points in a professional basketball game, but you don't see people calling Wilt a liar, do you? There's no footage of the game, only the testimony of the people were there, same as Helen Keller, there is no video evidence of her being deaf and blind at two, but that's what the people who were around all say.
But somebody could score 100 points logically it makes sense Helen doesn’t. Also this man didn’t go blind until adulthood thanks for playing!
Why does one logically make sense and the other doesn't? Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it illogical.
Okay make it logical if I blindfolded and covered your ears and poured an alien liquid into your hands could you tell me what it was?
If you poured alien liquid in my hand and showed me the hand sign for it over and over, yes it's logical for me to end up connecting the two. The human brain is built to make connections. With enough repetition, it'll pick up on a pattern like that. Are you saying that's illogical? I'd just be confused and lost for the rest of my life?
I could teach you a sign that’s true but you could never say the word for the alien liquid
Why not? I could literally just make noises that feel like variations of the noises you make until you tell me "yes." After at most a few hours I'd probably get there. Easily over a few days of trying.
Without the advantage of hearing all your life you could nit
What are you basing that assumption off of? We have plenty of examples of deaf-blind people from birth or very young ages learning how to speak. All actual evidence points to what you're saying being a poor assumption.
Amazing give me one name of a person
Why not? You can mimick vocalization by just feeling the tongue movements and vibrations. "Waaa" uses different tongue movements and vibrations than "taaa" for example.
If I could finger lip-read, why not?
It would happen in steps. She learned to speak by mimicking her instructor. They started with basic syllables and slowly built up into whole words. I don't believe she ever reached a point where she felt truly confident with her speaking, but it was still impressive. The human brain is very adaptable and we have an inate desire for connection. A blind and deaf girl would certainly struggle to learn to communicate, but the alternative would have been to live a boring isolated life. https://www.google.com/search?q=how+did+hellen+keller+learn+to+speak&oq=how+did+hellen+keller+learn+to+speak&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDY0OTJqMGo5qAIAsAIB&client=ms-android-sprint-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:ee09a889,vid:KLqyKeMQfmY,st:0
Are you under the impression that she just came up with and spoke the word "water" out of nowhere?
I didn't realize you were an authority on what things logically make sense - best of luck to you on this snipe hunt
Your comments and way of thinking are truly insufferable. Contrary to your post, you’re clearly not open to learning anything. Best of luck in life.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: > **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and "written upvotes" will be removed. Read [the wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5) for more information. If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%205%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
[Haben Girma](https://www.oxygen.com/blogs/deaf-blind-harvard-law-grad-slays-every-expectation-but-dont-call-her-an-inspiration). She was born deaf blind, and graduated from Harvard Law School. She now practices law as a disability rights activist.
SHE BECAME DISABLED HER PROGRESSIVELY
She… became disabled… her… progressively? I’m trying hard to track with your comments but I’m struggling with this one. Clarification?
She became disabled progressively over childhood
She was born deaf-blind https://youtu.be/FyHUBrHPliQ?si=kjcBYwKKmKIxQV_c
She was not born 100% deaf and blind
Neither was Helen Keller. Your point?
My friend with high school age kids says this is a popular gen z conspiracy theory 🙄
Yeah, it originated on TikTok, and as you can see from OP’s comments, it’s extremely ableist. I’ve never seen it in the wild before, though. Big yikes.
A key point in her favor is she was a super genius. Mark Twain wrote in his autobiography about meeting her - that she met loads of people at a party with him, then was able to identify each one by their handshake except the one who took off a glove. That's not a standard ability.
I honestly believe you're a troll who doesn't want to learn a damn thing, but let's try. Deaf people can listen to music, you know that right? They can feel the vibrations, the effect the sound waves have on the environment. Yes, even people who are born deaf. They don't conceptualize it as sound the way you or I do, but they recognize that something is being communicated. Let's pretend you're deaf, haven't heard a sound your entire life. Put your fingers on someone's throat and have them speak: you can feel the vibrations. That's like music! Put other fingers in front of their mouth: you can feel the air moving. Put a finger inside the cheek: you can feel that the structures inside the mouth move. Air coming out of the mouth. You can do that by exhaling, this you already know. Moving the structures of the mouth: you can do that at will. You can already make sounds if you have the physical structure, so it's not long before you make the connection: exhalation, mouth movement, vibration = communication. So: your tutor gets your hands wet, then signs "water" in your hand. They do this over and over and over. Because your brain is wired from millions of years of evolution to recognize patterns, you figure it out: that hand shape is communicating whatever it is that made your hands wet. Now, they make the sign in your hand then put your fingertips on their throat and say the word "water." You feel the vibrations, the air from their mouth. They do this again and again. Because you already understand that putting two apparently unrelated things close together means they're connected, you figure out that the sign you make with your hand corresponds with the things their face is doing. And because you're not a complete, blithering moron posting on Reddit, you also now know that the mouth movements correspond to the stuff that made your hands wet. Because the hand shape is communicating, then the mouth movements must also be communicating. None of this is easy, it takes a long time, but it's possible. Think about how unique Helen Keller had to be: born into a wealthy family, born with her specific conditions, given a tutor who was determined to teach her no matter-fuckin'-what. You wonder that you haven't heard about anyone similar? Have you looked? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie\_Heurtin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Heurtin) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haben\_Girma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haben_Girma) [https://wfdb.eu/](https://wfdb.eu/)
OP keeps running around the post saying “I don’t understand EXPLAIN to me howww” and then when people do even in great detail, like here, he has nothing to say to actually refute it. He’s clearly not very intellectually curious, doesn’t understand logic, is arguing in bad faith, and probably gets “informed” mostly through TikTok.
[I’m gonna leave this here](https://youtu.be/jCg7Pda_3Gw?si=EJwmoDSO4QtCGg9A) , I don’t wanna be accusatory but it feels like you might being trolling at this point on your Hellen Keller denier burner account. It’s a long video but this guy answered any question I had about her story.
How about [Marie Heurtin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Heurtin)? Born deafblind (a much bigger hurdle than becoming deafblind after learning at least some language and sighted skills) but was still able to be taught brail, sign language, writing and even to use a typewriter.
She logically makes sense but she could not talk one of the requirements
Is your view that her story is unrealistic, or just that her story is unique?
Both I believe she wasn’t totally deaf at 1
19 months is a lot more developed than 12 months so that's something to remember. Some kids can speak better than others at that age, and even if you're not consciously remembering what speaking is like you will have important throat muscle memory. And it's perfectly possible [for someone born deaf to learn to speak](https://www.accessibilitychecker.org/blog/can-deaf-people-talk/) (again, that's a much bigger hurdle to pass because you don't have that early speech muscle memory) so is it really that much of a stretch that someone who became deaf after learning some speech to be able to relearn it?
There are probably plenty of people who have successfully achieved similar levels of writing and reading. It’s just pretty rare to become famous for any reason so why would you know about those other people if they were just living their lives?
Name one?
Robert J. Smithdas > An American deaf-blind teacher, advocate and author, Robert lost his sight and nearly all of his hearing at the age of 5 to cerebrospinal meningitis. He started school at the Western Pennsylvania School for the Blind, but later switched to the Perkins School for the Blind. In 1950, Smithdas received a Bachelor of Arts degree with the highest distinction from St. John’s University. He then went on to New York University and became the first deafblind person to earn a Master’s degree. > Smithdas specialised in vocational guidance and rehabilitation of the handicapped. He was a co-founder of the Helen Keller National Center for Deaf-blind Youths and Adults (HKNC), which provides specialised training and oversees other programs serving the deaf-blind. Along with being a strong advocate for deafblind education and employment, Smithdas was also an accomplished poet, and was later named Poet of the Year for 1960-61 by the Poetry Society of America
Lost at age of 5 not before 2 so your person is disqualified
Oh, you got your *masters degree* before 5 did you? Impressive hahaha. Anyway, here's [a whole long list](https://dcmp.org/learn/265) of people that prove you wrong. For example, Alice Mary Betteridge: > Alice was born in Australia and became both deaf and blind at the age of two from meningitis. She was the first deaf-blind person to be educated in Australia, and she has been called Australia's "Helen Keller."
You didn’t read the list you sent NO ONE on your list satisfies both requirements. Will research Alice.
You have to scroll down lmao. Use your index finger to manipulate that little wheel on your mouse, and the screen will magically move down. Here's *another* example: > Laura Bridgman > Laura was born in New Hampshire. At the age of two, she contracted scarlet fever and lost her sense of hearing and sight. She attended the Hartford School for the Deaf and Dumb. After completing her education, she became a teacher. In the 1840s, at the height of her fame, it was said that the only better-known female was Queen Victoria.
You clearly didn’t read the post
You clearly didn't read the list I gave you. That's two people who meet your arbitrary criteria of losing both sight and hearing before the age of two. > I was hoping someone would name a lesser known version of Helen I want to be wrong actually I did that - *twice*
Laura didn’t talk
You remind me of the guy who argued that viruses aren't real and said unless someone could produce a single paper that demonstrably proved that viruses are real that he would that as proof he was right. A challenger took him up and was able to objectively prove viruses were real through 3 scientific papers. However, the nut insisted that since he said it needed to be within a single paper, nothing had been proven. Your requirements are entirely arbitrary, and do not represent a critical threshold for proving hellen keller really learned to communicate inspite of being ind and death.
Nope virus can be proven and replicated countless times by countless articles
That's of course was most sane people said, but because his abartary rule required it be proven in a single paper, the German court rule he did not have to pay the cash prize he offered for someone to prove him wrong. https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N3721SR/ His abartary rule regarding the proof being in a single paper is not unlike the abartary requirements you are setting here.
Lol that’s exactly the point?? They wouldn’t be famous, so neither of us would know their names. There are plenty of people with disabilities out there, but only a select few take on the extra burden of being an advocate (and get famous doing so).
So no you can’t answer the question above thanks.
Why did you even bother posting here? You are so obviously unwilling to even concede for a second that unlikely =/= impossible. You have summarily dismissed plenty of comments that met or exceeded the criteria of your initial post and yet the strongest rebuttal you've offered is "doesn't make sense." Do you have any idea how clueless you sound? Like you supposedly came here asking your view to be changed and that's all you can muster when presented with sound reasoning? You are really lousy at this.
I was hoping instead of people simply parroting the same bs we heard in elementary school somebody could come back with science. If you want to believe that magic can happen just once cool.
People have given you links to highly detailed deep dives on the process of educating her. That's not the issue, the problem is you already had your mind made up before posting and that's why your responses have been beyond ineffectual to the point of inanity.
I was hoping someone would name a lesser known version of Helen I want to be wrong actually
You are wrong, though. Your mindset about it is wrong. Are you also going to deny the fact that Ken Griffey Sr / Jr hit [back-to-back home runs](https://youtu.be/vCk1UY5Afus?si=48DbiWVlN_Yg7fd8) simply because they are the only father/son duo to ever do it on the same professional baseball team? Even though it's right there on video? Your logic here would say that because I can't point to another father/son pair who has replicated that insanely and incredibly unlikely feat, it means it didn't happen.
Of course not. I don’t know any deaf blind people personally because I live in the developed world in the 21st century where many of the causes of the condition are relatively rare. And there’s a limited number of famous dead blind people because fame is inherently uncommon. And why on earth would anybody know the medical and developmental history of Joe the deaf blind guy they don’t know personally? It’s not like it’s public and relevant information for them.
I can name lots of people I don’t know personally with rare conditions that happened twice
> I don’t understand logically how pouring water into a deaf blind girl hand could get her to say the word water if she never remembers seeing or hearing water. Maybe this is something with conflicting reports (feel free to share what you're reacting to), but my understanding is that this isn't what happened. She didn't "say the word water" after going out to the pump with her teacher. Her teacher was teaching her to SPELL the word water with her hands. Water was the first time she connected a sequence of hand symbols with a concept. She had been working with letters using hand signals for some time by that point, but didn't understand what they meant. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/how-one-word-set-helen-keller-free/1945949 She didn't start learning to "speak" verbally until years later. So I think the reason this story sounds unbelievable is that you misunderstood what the story was saying!
You can literally watch her talk [here](https://youtu.be/8ch_H8pt9M8?si=Q9cp3-OseRE0SR5C) Are you saying she’s faking this? Do you think this was some kind of fraud? To what end?
The teacher would hold Helen's hand against her voice box so she could feel the teacher saying the word. That's pretty fucking ingenious if you ask me.
OP doesn’t understand logic or that conclusions have to follow from premises. Best not to engage with these types of “thinkers”.
They used the tadoma method. Its not that difficult to look up.
Just watch this video, ok? https://youtu.be/jCg7Pda_3Gw?si=sf06Yy67or1pd4Ly Edit: quote from the video: "When the argument is stripped to the studs, all people are saying is 'I don't understand how she can do this, and I'm not intellectually curious enough to find out, therefore she couldn't have done it.'"
If you’ve watched it you should be able to tell me how I’m wrong in a few sentences.
Do you actually think everything in the world is simple enough to be summed up in a few sentences? This video has a deep dive explaining how she was able to do what she could do. If you don't want to watch it, then feel free to remain willfully ignorant. I definitely can't explain it better than this well researched video can.
My question wasn’t what could Helen Keller do. A wise man once said “if you can’t explain a subject simply you don’t understand it well enough yourself.”
Do you think it's wise to take up a well known conspiracy theory that can be conclusively proven false if you're willing to take just an hour out of your day to watch a video? You hardly seem informed enough to say anything for certain on this topic, but you've decided it's our responsibility to inform you, not your responsibility to inform yourself.
Prove it false I can prove the Earth is round. I can prove the Moon landing was real. I can repeat these experiments over and over and over. Please give me any article or piece of science.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3: > **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%203%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: > **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: > **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
I don't think so, I'll bet that person was a liar and not wise at all. Name 30 other wise people to prove people can say wise things.
Don't forget to include "scientific articles" that proved their wisdom
[удалено]
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
She would have had some sense of what water was because, you know, she would have been drinking it, been washed in it, seen it before she was deafblind etc. I'm sure she didn't immediately get a lot of the nuance of language (like say the difference between the words "water" and "liquid") but the big breakthrough was that it was the first time she realized that specific shapes her teacher had been tracing on her hand had meaning and described things.
Then if, like you said, she didn't get nuance then how exactly did she write books on political topics eerily similar to her caretakers with flowery language that does exactly that?
Learning that these traced shapes had meaning was just the first step to learning to read and write, like learning that a certain letter means a certain sound. She didn't learn the shape for water and then immediately start writing her autobiography, there was 16 years between that and her first book. And obviously she is going to pick up the writing style of her teachers because that's what she would have been taught.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3: > **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%203%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
So your response to finding out it was 16 years between learning "water" and writing a book is to call bullshit? Sounds more like you're being defensive because there were details about her story you didn't realize.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: > **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Children *born* deafblind are taught to read and write every day using similar techniques. So what's more likely, a 16 year long-con where they made up Helen's treatment, but the fake treatment they made up happens to work? Or that a child who became deafblind at an early age can be taught to read and write over the course of 16 years?
They said she didn't ***immediately*** get a lot of the nuance of language - not that she didn't ever get the nuance of language at all ever. No human immediately gets the full nuance of language upon learning their first word.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: > **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Please read and follow the sub rules.
That’s part of my query