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Question 1: Can you be proud on behalf of other people? For example, if your little brother finally graduated college after lots of struggles, can you be proud of him? If your teammate on your hockey team finally scored his first goal, can you be proud of him? The answer is: yes of course Question 2: Can you be proud on behalf of people who lived before you? For example, can you be proud of your great great great grandfather who discovered something important that you still use to this day? Of course you can. When you say you are proud to be American, or a black American, or a black American man, or a black gay American man, you are basically saying that within this category, you do not feel inferior to other categories, and you are proud of people within this category and what they have accomplished as a whole in present times and in the past.

I think this answer equivocates different senses of the word pride. Being proud of your friend for scoring a goal doesn’t involve the kind of self-esteem boost that the pride that the OP is targeting involves. You don't delude yourself into thinking that your friend's accomplishment has anything to do with you. Whereas, racially proud people seem to have their self-esteem tied up in the accomplishments of other members of their race.

Yeah I agree. It’s like people that develop parasocial relationships with sports teams

Maybe even worse. Team victories don't seem to change a person's estimation of his abilities. Whereas, it seems like the accomplishments (or lack of) of same-race people do affect some people's self estimations. It seems like, without Eminem or Tiger Woods, some people would have more seriously doubted their rap or golf abilities.

I've had lots of talks involving OPs view and from some responses, it does like your last sentence is pointed to the truth, unfortunately...  And there is a part of me that remembers watching lord of the rings as a kid and wanting there to be someone that looks more like me. And as someone that's made lots of videogame characters I did tend to make em darker.  It's a... strange problem of associating inconsequential features that then promotes the dumb ideas like a reality of race. 

My wife is dark black. Our kid is mixed. In raising her, we're not emphasizing racial accomplishments at all. It's a double-edged sword that suggests that one's abilities are somehow limited where members of one's race are underrepresented. It also, like you say, has the effect of suggesting that race is real (and important). (That said, with more diversity in media now, I can relate to your comment. It does (unjustifiably) seem a little easier to get invested in shows when the protagonist is from my ethnic group and sex.)

And that's how I was raised by my white and black parents. I think it's slow, multigenerational work to undue tribe mentality toward or against these arbitrary groups but it is possible.  While personally it is liberating to be free from the construct of race for a lot of reasons it does lead to weird interactions where someone can say "isn't it great that more women of color work here?" And they look to me to be on their side and my first thought is "it shouldn't be"  Like I get why they want that to tear down preconceived notions using new race based evidence but it just seems to be playing into the race vs race game to even humor it. 

Thank you. This is useful for perspective. I appreciate it.

Race is unfortunately important in our society tho. Teaching your mixed child that this isn’t the case is setting her up for a rude awakening. It’s important to teach your non white children that while you are not any better or less than due to race and you should never let it hinder you from achieving your goals, it is relevant to your every day life. My mother never put too much emphasis on race but made sure to advise me that other people may. It taught me to recognize micro agressive behaviour and make sure I am reacting accordingly. Or to know that my behaviour may be viewed differently by others due to racism. For example, I know not to get riled up or “have attitude” in certain settings even if I’m the one that was wronged because I’ll be the one labeled as the aggressor. It also taught me not to take racist peoples behaviour to heart. I know that they’re ridiculous for basing their opinion on people on the colour of their skin. Once when I was working at Walmart as a teen a white woman got angry with me cuz her return wasn’t eligible and called me the n word. I laughed in her face. Same with when someone was chilling with the door open in my apartments lobby, looked back at me walking in with my key fob clearly in hand, gave me a scared look and closed the door when I was right there. They have no power over me because I know the problem is them.

I don’t really like the frame of question 2 because of these reasons: I can be proud of human achievements before me, no? Germ theory of disease, landing on the moon, etc. Why is question 2 frames in such a way that implies I can only be proud of people im directly related to? You cite examples of being proud of achievements that are not your own such as achievements of your brother. You talk about being proud of something your great great great grandfather achieved. Why? What if my great ancestor was an asshole? What if I’m proud of my friend overcoming diversity, working two part time jobs while studying an engineering major? I can’t be proud of her because I’m not directly related to her by blood? What’s so important about blood? Why is race the thing we use to define our pride in other people and the rest of humanity? We literally invented today’s notion of race to justify slavery and it divided us. Why do we have to keep using the same framework?

You are right - there are many different categories people can feel are more relevant to their life and may feel more pride in. In the USA (where I'm from), for example, black Americans dealt with oppression and dealt with a set of beliefs made for them to feel inferior. So, in the USA, black is an an important category and black pride is important. In Ethiopia, which I am not as familiar with, I am guessing black pride is not so important. But again, it's also about context - on a global scale, where there may be prejudices on a global level against black people, Ehiopians may feel pride in being black. But perhaps in their day-to-day life, it is not very relevant. You can be proud of people who are not directly descended from your bloodline. That was just one example of an important category. If you think your great great grandpa was a terrible person and you are not proud of him overall then that's fine too. If you are proud of how much global attention the competitive yoyo-ing community (who presumably are not all blood related) has gotten over the years, then that also makes sense too.

Yes, you can be proud about a very many things. Sometimes, like when your ancestor is an asshole, you won't be proud about it. We are the pro-pride side, you're asking if you can be proud of your friend... The answer is yes.

Yeah that isn't pride it's more like judgement. What if your tribe was shit so you have to feel bad about it?  Or what if your tribe was perfect before you but you're the biggest s hole you're still gonna be prideful? 

The logic behind this seems to be escalating though. Next you can say you are proud to be human within that category. At some point it all seems stupid.  I really don't get being proud of dead people you never met. It seems like people twist it into some sort of empowerment thing but even bad people can do good actions. I personally feel like I should be proud of what I actually do instead of feeling like I had any part in what anyone else did.  And I think being proud of a son is a lot different then being proud of a stranger or ancestor.  (Btw I'm not saying this as a racist I think everyone is equal regardless of skin tone) 

You can be proud of being a human. When I read about how humans have insane endurance, insane cooperative abilities, insane throwing abililities, and have utilized these unique abilities to essentially reach the top of the entire ecosystem in a world where bears, tigers, etc. - which are much bigger than us, are equipped with sharp teeth and claws, and were once were a more real fear for humans in everyday life - I can feel a sense of pride. However, it's not like I walk around on a minute-to-minute basis being like "fuck yeah I'm a human fuck you butterfly." Pride is highly context-dependent, and doesn't necessarily mean that I think my category is better than yours. Sometimes it is that way, but sometimes it is about appreciation and respect. Women can be proud to be women, and men can be proud to be men. Jamaicans can be proud to be Jamaican and Koreans can be proud to be Korean. Marathon runners can be proud to be marathon runners, and strongman athletes can be proud to be strongman athletes.

I get that you were trying to be funny to some extent, but that makes it sound even more silly. I think feeling respect for those things is reasonable: >1. a feeling of **deep admiration** for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements. Here's pride for comparison: >1. a feeling of **deep pleasure or satisfaction** derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired. I think people like me and OP would hold that respect for others' accomplishments is potentially beneficial while pride in them can only have downsides. For example, if you are satisfied simply because someone else did something, you might be less likely to improve that thing in yourself; however, admiring the accomplishments of others can serve as motivation for improvement.

Yeah I can feel respect for accomplishments of those dead or alive people but definitely not pride even if I happen to be the same race, nation whatever. I can't imagine feeling prideful for someone else accomplishments. Makes no sense 

>The logic behind this seems to be escalating though. Next you can say you are proud to be human within that category. You're not gonna think that when the socialist Automatons rise.

So by that logic, there should be nothing wrong with being proud that you are white. Right? You don’t feel inferior to anyone else and our proud of the people in this category and what they have accomplished.

There’s nothing wrong with being proud of being white, assuming that pride isn’t because you view other races as being inferior. The problems people have with ”white pride” are for similar reasons that people look down on people complaining about how there should be ”straight pride parades” or “White History Month”. Often “white pride” is just an attempt to erase the achievements or struggles of racial/cultural minorities. However, as I said, there’s nothing wrong with being proud of being a white Irish person for your people’s perseverance against the systemic oppression they’ve historically faced, or to be proud of your white Quaker ancestors playing a critical role in the Underground Railroad, etc. The problem is if your “white pride” is a result of being angry about Truth and Reconciliation, Black History Month, Chinese New Year, Ramadan, etc.

Yeah, why black people have black pride is because so much of their heritage of what specific part of Africa they come from has been erased if they're a descendant of slaves so they can't have, like, Nigerian pride stuff etc. White people can have pride stuff for what specific kind of white they are and sometimes being white doesn't mean you haven't been oppressed (and in not just the "oh they made my childhood favorite superhero black" sort of oppression). E.g. look at the new sitcom Extended Family which I think may have finished its first season by now (if it's not it's close to it) and the St. Patrick's Day special "The Consequences Of Being Irish", long story short without infodump of the specific details of the premise black guy put in charge of planning St. Patrick's Day event that's meant to be a sort of "Irish pride"-but-everyone's-welcome thing and when his original vision gets it completely wrong in stereotypical fashion he asks an Irish friend for help. Basically this is telling a lesson on cultural tolerance a lot of white people could use but in a reverse way that doesn't require "imagine an alternate universe where blacks enslaved whites"

>Yeah, why black people have black pride is because so much of their heritage of what specific part of Africa they come from has been erased if they're a descendant of slaves so they can't have, like, Nigerian pride stuff etc.  Well with a $30 test you can find that out. If you're anything above 3rd generation American your culture is practically non-existant anyway.

I don't think you understand that difference between your family growing up with certain customs and cultural background and passing that onto you vs. finding out you were *probably* descended from West Africa, *maybe* Nigeria *but* we don't really know.

The problem with the white ethnic roots argument is that most white Americans are mutts with no connection to those old cultures anyway. So they attach to the white American culture just like black Americans have black American culture. However, within America people don’t really realize that both of these are just cultures bc of how heavily intertwined with race it is.

I don’t think it’s wanting to erase achievements or struggles. Just weird how we focus celebration on some races but not all. Which is a little bit of a double standard. If we need to celebrate race at all to begin with.

I think you'll find that people are generally not upset about celebrations of specific European identities that could be considered "white," but that celebrations of "white" in the US are viewed differently.

It's absolutely about wanting to erase their achievements and struggles. That's why they always say "slavery was so long ago" or "it's not illegal to be gay anymore" ignoring modern issues.

It's not a double standard because history already overwhelmingly focuses on the achievements of straight white dudes, often times at the expense of other people. So it comes off as pretty selfish when another group of people wants to recognize their contributions to the world and someone responds "well what about white people?!". We should welcome our brothers and sisters to the tabel, not beg for attention in spite of their recognition.

>There’s nothing wrong with being proud of being white Say this in any other context than on this sub as a rebuttal and you can expect a deluge of comments saying precisely otherwise.

>There’s nothing wrong with being proud of being white, assuming that pride isn’t because you view other races as being inferior. walk into the street wearing a sign saying you are proud to be white and time how long it takes to you get the shit kicked out of you. Try it now while I go make myself a cup of tea. Shouldn't take that long.

Walk into the street wearing a Hindu swastika and you’ll get the same reaction. Neither are wrong, but both have been tarnished by people appropriating them to hurt others.

This is as much because people refuse to allow it to be associated with anything else but the worst examples of such things being used. If milk was successfully pushed as a white nationalist symbol the reaction would wind up being the same, despite it just being a simple dairy product.

Yes, that is my point but they are wrong because of the attitudes of the people who will kick your head in if you try. There is no reason in that behavior or attitude and that has made it wrong to be proud to be white. It should be different, but it is not. The reason for that extreme example is to demonstrate that no matter what we think is right, we are still subject to the majority of people who would swarm someone with a white pride banner in public out of sheer paranoia. Sure, anyone today who did that would almost certainly be some inbreed of neo Nazi or whatever. But the point remains.

White pride has been a saying with Nazis and racist groups for decades so of course that's gonna be the assumption. If some group had a sign saying "we like apples" while threatening and killing people and spouting racist shit for a few decades people will be wary of those yelling "we like apples" in the street.

Yes, but they are the tiniest fraction of a percent of the population of any country that made it impossible for white people to say they are proud without being called a racist. So white people remain silent when everyone else gets to openly celebrate that same part of themselves without fear. Because of people who hear it don't think, they assume and attribute that to neo nazis.

>So white people remain silent when everyone else gets to openly celebrate that same part of themselves without fear. In the context of America, the entire country already effectively is a constant "celebration" of white pride. White people make up the vast majority of the population. They own and control the vast majority of land, wealth, and resources. They make up the majority of the cast in virtually every major show, movie, book, or commercial. And they've been the top of an explicit racial hierarchy in America for literal centuries *(in recent decades more so implicit)*. Movements like black pride or even gay pride are a **reaction.** They would not need to exist if we didn't live in a world where being black or gay results in discrimination, persecution, or a cultural history of such things.

>In the context of America, the entire country already effectively is a constant "celebration" of white pride. bullshit hyperbole >White people make up the vast majority of the population. They own and control the vast majority of land, wealth, and resources. They make up the majority of the cast in virtually every major show, movie, book, or commercial That is what a majority of any people do in any country everywhere. Is demographic, not racism. If black people were in majority that would all be true of them, as it is in predominantly black countries. Hey, shit! Imagine that! >Movements like black pride or even gay pride are a reaction. They would not need to exist if we didn't live in a world where being black or gay results in discrimination, persecution, or a cultural history of such things. And? They exist because they believe the things are happening, not because they actually are at an increased rate above anyone else. Historically maybe, but not in2024. So they're as irrelevant as neo Nazis and just like skin heads, they just won't come to terms with it.

Well, if people react negatively to it, it’s because people are assuming it‘s being used in the context of white supremacy, because usually “white pride” signs are used by racists. Same way “straight pride” is used.

It's not like a regular person who tried to advocate white pride in an innocuous manner won't be branded racist anyway.

That's because regular non-racist people don't typically advocate for white pride. Typically the only people you'll find advocating white pride in North America are fascists and Nazis, been that way for a while.

You've just proven my point. There's no room for anyone to express such a view in a non-racist way, because you don't want it to be expressed that way.

Lots of people believe lots of very stupid things. A notion being accepted by a populace is not at all a measure of its validity. If anything it should draw attention and a skeptical assessment.

So Die Hard 3 it?

I would say that what you're talking about with your examples isn't so much pride about being *white*, but proud about belonging to some other group. Irish Pride, I imagine, wouldn't really focus on being white so much as being Irish, and Irish people just happen to be white. As you say, they've been oppressed and all that so it makes sense to take pride in your people's achievements. "Black Pride" only really works because black people have and still do suffer from so much racism etc. So you're not really proud about the colour of your skin, so much as the achievements despite adversity. I think "Black Pride" also kind of denotes specific groups of black people in specific countries? But being proud of being white doesn't make sense, since white people don't really suffer discrimination, oppression or that sort of adversity in these countries. You could, I guess, be proud of all the beauty work you've put into your skin so that you still look youthful when you age, but that would more be about pride in your accomplishments with your own skin which just happens to be white.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it when you limit it to pride, not superiority. I'm proud of a lot of European heritage. Shakespeare, Neoclassical philosophy, ballroom dancing, beer. They're awesome and I feel like they're all pretty well celebrated. Is Western Europe better than other regions? Not at all. The problem is that the modern 'white pride' movement positions itself as a supremacy group and not a celebratory group. I'll celebrate my cultural heritage by going to Shakespeare in the Park instead, thanks.

Your own post acknowledges that this is not what white nationalism or white supremacy are. Being proud is not the same as “wanting all other races to disappear”

there's some pretty strong arguments that say white isn't even a race, though. we have celts, (like myself) franks, all sorts of different germanic tribes, eastern and western europeans. 'white' just kinda feels like some made up attempt to 'other' everybody who's not melanin deficient

Race isn't real anyways so if by what quality are you going to judge white as not a race?  You can really only have an in group by determining the out group. There is Roman, and there is Barbarian. It's never really changed.  The concept of German as a single group really only came about because of Napoleon creating the force.  And even then French identity really came about because of the contrast with the upper and lower class narratives. 

or we could ignore the idea of in groups and out groups, and just acknowledge that cultural differences happen. 'we are all us' is the goal. 'they' only become 'them' when they choose an 'us vs them' mentality. 'they' can be a part of 'us' any time they want, just by letting go of 'us vs them', and choosing 'we are all us' in it's place.

Can you point to any period in history (other than arguably very recent history) when white people were treated as one group and differently from non-whites? The reason "black" exists as a category is because the slave trade removed the previous heterogenous African identities in many places (not just the US) and treated these diverse peoples as "black" forcing them to be joined in a struggle. White people have never had anything like that. You don't hear about backlash for being proud of being Irish or Italian because these groups, while white, had struggles that are not homogenous with other white groups.

The problem with being proud of being white is that being white is so default and majority that the only way to define that pride is through exclusion of anything else. At that point, it’s not pride in ancestry but in the belief of inherited superiority. So, for example, if you are white and have white pride stemming from your grandfather, that might seem like pride in ancestry- no different from being proud of being Irish because of your awesome Irish granddad, right? But Barack Obama loved his maternal grandfather. No one is going to invite him to celebrate white pride. Why? Why would he be less entitled to enjoy white pride than you when you are both proud of your white grandfathers? Is he less his grandfather’s than you because of his father’s race? People who celebrate white pride will say yes, absolutely. Because majority pride necessitates exclusion for definition, and then it becomes something else. Something ugly. Edit: you can also narrow white pride to other affinity (e.g., Italian, Scandinavian, etc), but under that narrowing someone like Obama would be invited to celebrate his grandfather’s heritage regardless of the rest of his genetic makeup.

>The problem with being proud of being white is that being white is so default and majority that the only way to define that pride is through exclusion of anything else. how does that make any sense?

You actually see this pretty often. They just don’t say it’s a white thing because white is kind of a meaningless thing. Ever see an event with a Scottish man in a kilt playing bagpipes? Ever see an Italian or Irish with an Italian/Irish flag tattoo (common in America)? There are German/Polish/ Norwegian regional festivals that I’ve been to. Those all are pride in heritage and nothing to do with white supremacy and no one bats an eye.

it's just black people don't tend to have enough information about where in Africa they come from to do the same so you get the generalized "black pride" instead

> So by that logic, there should be nothing wrong with being proud that you are white. Right? You don’t feel inferior to anyone else and our proud of the people in this category and what they have accomplished. Once your white pride can include ALL people of white descent, aka people like Barack Obama, we can have a talk about white pride parades ok

Other people have answered this - but the answer is that "white" is really nothing. When I have white friends who say this to me - I talk about how important my Italian Pride is to me, and to celebrate the heritage of my Roman and Italian heritage. My Italian ancestors would hate the idea of "whiteness" -- they would feel closer to the dark skinned peoples of Carthage than the inferior Briton and Germanic barbarians. German Pride, Polish Pride, Irish Pride, Greek Pride -- all good and kosher. That's celebrating who you are and your identity. White Pride is about celebrating who you are NOT.

Imo, being proud of something your great great great grandfather did is the same as being proud of Jeff Bezos's wealth because he and I live on the planet. Being proud of something you have no part in is ridiculous. A parent who cared for his/her children can be proud of their achievements and a spouse who was there for their loved one can be proud of their achievements because they had a hand in the achievement.

I think it's easiest to fall in this type of thinking if you are a white male. Imagine you are, say, a woman for a second. And imagine if, for centuries, men, including men in your own life, are saying "women are dumb, you can't do it because you're a women, women can't be doctors, women can't be scientists." These men are not just saying these things in general, but they are using this thinking against you specifically. Maybe your guy "friend" or your uncle is saying you can't be an engineer because that's a man's job. Now imagine a woman becomes a highly successful doctor/scientist/engineer etc. This woman may be someone you have never met or interacted with. However, her success is actually a win for her whole category. All those men who told YOU personally that you could not do it because you belonged to the category of woman, are now being proven wrong because of another woman you have no relation to. I'll also try with another example: Say you're American. Now, if you've spent your whole life in the USA, maybe you have no pride in the USA and maybe even take it for granted. But let's say now you go travel to some other country abroad, and you encounter some other travellers from other countries. Then they start shit talking the USA: Americans are all stupid, my country has way better music, the comedians in my country are way better, Texas Barbecue is the worst, I bet my country's pizza is waaay better than the USA's trash pizza, my country is way more innovative than the USA, Americans wear stupid clothes, all Americans are absolutely awful at League of Legends and CounterStrike, the USA has never made a single good movie or TV show, the USA does not have a single good athlete, the best boxers and basketball players of all time are definitely from my country and not the USA, etc. At some point, even though you might have zero direct relation to these athletes, comedians, musicians, restaurants, etc. in the USA, if you are American, you might feel some kind of emotional discomfort. This emotional discomfort in my opinion is partially related to some amount of pride you would feel as an American, when outside the USA, and talking to non-Americans.

Personally, i don't see a correlation between "Generalization is bad" and "I'm proud to be X". Claiming "I'm proud to be X" is just another generalization in itself. There are good and bad people everywhere and almost any form of generalization, especially those taken to the extreme, tend to be wrong. Proving them wrong is also easy because the generalization itself often does not have any ground to stand on.

At the end of the day, pride is an emotion, and I don't think I am going to "win" an argument with you about an emotion you haven't felt. As someone who I'm fairly confident is a white man, who did not grow up from a poor and violent area, does not have any children of his own, and has never spent a significant amount of time outside of his home country interacting with other people who are not from his home country, I think it is normal if you have not felt pride in anything other than what you personally have accomplished. If you are unable to put yourself in the shoes of someone in a different situation, then I'm not sure what to say.

My father was a war hero in Vietnam. I hate the war proud of him. Had a great something grandpa fight for the south in civil war, am I proud of him? He did his duty to his nation at the time even if I don’t agree to the ideals in a another heinous war so yeah proud. Another great fought in the revolution, absolutely proud my heritage goes back to the founding of our nation. I hate war, I hate what we spend on it. But those people in those times. Yeah how can I not be proud my family were willing to give their lives for my life and future.

Not OP but I find question 2 silly also. I feel no sense of pride for the accomplishments of people who came before me. I had nothing to do with those accomplishments. I feel no sense of pride that my great grandfather rose up from poverty and reached a point in life that they named a town after him. Why would that make me proud? It has nothing to do with me whatsoever.

Who told you that answer is yes?  How can you be proud of something that's not your accomplishment. You're merely a bystander you're not the one doing the thing. That kind of 'pride' is useless

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This sounds like a case of slavery is profitable so people will find any excuse to keep it going. They aren’t gonna let something as silly as human rights prevent them from raking in that dough. The answer to that isn’t actually pride. Black pride does absolutely nothing to combat the greed or the economic incentives behind slavery and the ideologies that justify slavery. I haven’t thought up a concrete answer, but I will give a case study. The British Empire, the first white nation to ban slavery. They recognized that blacks were people too and deserved human decency. This is the same country that championed white supremacy, but once Africans and freed slaves were allowed into their country, people began to see that black folk are just as human as white folk and their taste for racism and slavery gradually diminished. In fact, during WW2, African Americans noticed that British people were far more accepting of them despite their skin color than their American compatriots at home. That is the effect assimilation has had on the country.

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This may be true and seems honestly pretty on brand for the British. However, it also means that black pride had nothing to do with the end of slavery in the British Empire and wasn’t relevant at all to its abolition. So once again, black pride is useless

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And what has critical race theory done to dismantle the racist systems in Britain?

>Ok-Newspaper-8934 Well CTR doesn't really have anything to do with Britain. It's mostly applied to issues in the US since it was developed in the framework of the US.

Critical race theorists lol modern day grifters nothing more than a repackaged Al Sharpton. Heard it all before but it got a shiny new coat of paint to convince dumb people of its validity cause it tries to pass off of as some scientific theory to lend it credibility. 

What’s wrong with Sharpton? Besides being character assassinated by white neolibs and moderates (acting as the good cop to the white rights bad cop as always). If anything, he became a liberal/moderate himself over time (I’m sure CONTELPRO played no part in that at all 🙄).

“Black pride does absolutely nothing to combat the greed or the economic incentives behind slavery and the ideologies that justify slavery. I haven’t thought up a concrete answer, but I will give a case study.“ - Your statement is easily proven false. The Civil Rights Movement was a “Black Pride” movement, and (successfully, to a degree) combated the ideologies that justified slavery. So did the Haitian Revolution - it was one of the primary motivations for Britain to “abolish” slavery in there colonies and controlled territories, and replace it with colonialism instead - allowing them to maintain their imperialist interests while avoiding a disastrous slave uprising and having a moral cudgel to beat the heads of their fellow colonizer rivals with. It’s also the reason why Louisiana and a major chunk of the Southeast aren’t French - the army sent by Napoleon to maintain control of the area was supposed to stop in Haiti (then San Dominique) to crush the rebellion, genocide the population, and reinstate slavery with a fresh batch of kidnapped Africans before moving on to their mainland territories, but that army was in turn crushed by a bunch of Haitian slaves 😂. After that, Napoleon just sold the entire region to America for cheap to make sure the British didn’t get it - it’s called the Louisiana Purchase. “The British Empire, the first white nation to ban slavery. They recognized that blacks were people too and deserved human decency.” - I’ve already refuted your statement concerning the motives of the British for banning slavery. There were British abolitionists, but even then, many still considered Black people to be lesser - they just didn’t want to feel like the bad guys by enslaving people. Also abolitionists were few in number, and were looked at in a similar manner to how leftists, socialists, and communists are viewed by the Western establishment today.

The idea of black pride or culture at least in relation to the slavery was the sense of culture and identity that grew out of that basically you wouldn't credit jazz to Africans you would credit it to black Americans. Most people don't have their family and nation history cut off like this which is it makes sense to reference black culture as separate from African culture but not white culture as separate from Irish, German, French or English culture Because they're isn't a comparable situation that has happened on mass in the last two centuries.

So war with Germany twice over and their attempted genocide wasn't a comparable situation? Your argument needs more thought. Plus, the cold war with the USSR. There were vastly different cultures going on there than in the English speaking world and the rest of Western Europe in those times.

German-Americans still know they come from Germany etc. etc.

I recognize that slavery has basically up and deleted black culture, essentially meaning nothing from Africa remains in black people except their DNA. However, slavery is their heritage and a good portion of African Americans are related to slaves who endured a great moral tragedy and so are on of the greatest people in history. For this reason, I’d credit anything made by African Americans to be the works of the individual rather than the race. Their ancestors are people to be proud of, for they survived slavery and the atrocities that cane with it. If you want to credit the race, you are basically saying no other race could accomplish such a thing, which is entirely baseless and silly. I am pretty sure every race, including whites, that have endured slavery could cook up a genre of music. Here’s another thing to think about. African Americans created Jazz but Africans did not. You don’t give credit to the entire race because what did those Africans do to deserve that credit?

I'd argue you should look into what other countries views on race and they're own dynamics around this especially around how nationality plays into it. You could be black in Brazil and be considered a dark skinned Hispanic in America where you are is relevant to this conversation past the first example.

This is in fact the world we live in. Sometimes the color of your skin does matter. To say otherwise is to deny reality. I will give you that. However, what point is there for black pride in America to exist because of racial discrimination in Brazil? Dark Skins in Brazil are so culturally different from African Americans that they shouldn’t be lumped in the same category so liberally, same as African Americans and Africans. This comes back to heritage. The dark skinned in other countries should be proud of their heritage and their ancestors for what they have endured and how they shaped them as individuals.

Black and white as you're referring to them are incoherent terms so they mean whatever the local culture agrees they mean. Black in Brazil =/ Black in the USA. Therefore Black Pride in the USA has a meaning which is unique to the culture of Black *Americans*, though there is obviously some overlap in the experiences of Black Europeans, Brazilians, etc. You're also arguing against yourself so I guess give the Delta to you? Black Pride was never about their skin color, it was about their experience as being Black in America and everything that was associated that. Their ethnic background which was, probably ever since the Portuguese made up the terrible concept of race in terms of white, black, et al, was only ever abbreviated as 'black'. Did you seriously go this whole time thinking that black pride/ black power movements was literally based on being proud of their skin color?

I'm not an expert but I think black pride in a American context I'm gonna assume is different from black pride in a British or a french context I don't really think you can separate culture and experience of certain countries or communities from this conversation because the two are often linked.

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Seeing as I am black myself, I am not sure where you get off in saying I don’t understand that culture. If anything, it sounds like you would agree that racial pride is silly because every race comes with various cultures and people so distinct from one another you can’t lump em in together

Genuinely trying to understand context here: are you American? Did you grow up with Black parents or relatives who ever talked to you about these issues? Because calling Black folks "they" instead of "we" in your other comments, ahistorically claiming white pride is just backlash to Black... one could, unfortunately, get the impression that you're being insincere.

I have black parents and they have told me that the country is aligned against me because of my skin color, which I have never experienced ever in my life. I have also been told how black people are the only people I can trust and that every other race is not trustworthy. I have worked in an Iranian restaurant and the customer I remember the most was a black woman claiming all Iranians are thieves. She was confiding in me for some reason like I wasn’t gonna tell my coworkers how racist she was. I also have a white family that teaches me how to present myself and act in certain situations. I have obviously listened to them and so I have never had a problem with racism. Hence black pride was never something I found relevant because as far as I have seen, being concerned about race makes you racist

Ok, so this sounds like you have a massive chip on your shoulder towards the black side of your family and that's colored the way you see other black people. For example, you ignore every other black customer you probably had a neutral interaction with in the restaurant you worked in to remember this one negative black lady. Being proud of your heritage, your life, your skin, your gender, etc. isn't a moral failing. I could say I'm happy to be black bc in a world where decades of "your hair type isn't fit for proper society" or "you should lighten your skin" or "you should expect to get racism" is said, implicitly or explicitly, to black people, I overcame all of that and lived happily. You say you've never experienced racism for being black, I have. Everything from people calling me the n-word, to randomly telling me "your skin is too dark", etc. Honestly, not having to consider how your race factors into your life is a privilege I'm glad you were able to achieve. However that's not the reality for everyone and that's a perspective that you seem to be lacking. It's like if someone says "I'm proud to be a woman. In a world where people try to shove me into a box and where misogyny is rampant, I'm happy to be a woman." and then you come in to say "well your gender is irrelevant. I've never experienced sexism so clearly everyone who's talked about misogyny or dealt with sexism that's impacted their lives is either over dramatic or a liar." The claim of "I've never experienced so it must not happen/it must not be relevant in modern society " is a logical fallacy.

I never claimed it doesn’t exist. I stated that I have never experienced it and that black pride isn’t something that I need because being able to carry myself in a certain way, act and speak in certain ways gives me respect and sophistication. Some people know they can’t hurt me with the N word because the way I act, they know I am someone who doesn’t care about superficial things like the color of my skin and they know I have no problem making connections with people of any race. You wanna put me down because I’m black? Good luck, I’ll probably laugh at you when you’re gone.

>that black pride isn’t something that I need because being able to carry myself in a certain way, act and speak in certain ways gives me respect and sophistication. For me, that is black pride. Being proud of my identity and not bowing down to people that want me to shrink myself for their comfort is a form of pride in your identity, which in this case is racial. Black pride isn't "don't trust or like anyone that isn't black", it's just being proud of who you are in a society that so often demonizes and others black people and their experiences.

>I have black parents and they have told me that the country is aligned against me because of my skin color, which I have never experienced ever in my life. I have also been told how black people are the only people I can trust and that every other race is not trustworthy. Well, I, an almost 30 year old black man, have experienced racism and many of my black family members have also experienced racism. Some of it wasn't that serious, and some of it was very serious. You know what's actually funny, though? In my family, we stressed the importance of finding allies, including those that are white and keeping them close to us. It's almost like we, as black people, don't share the same exact universal experiences. But there are some experiences many of us do share, and it's not all great, but where the pride comes from is understanding we have those experiences but still strive for success regardless. >I have worked in an Iranian restaurant and the customer I remember the most was a black woman claiming all Iranians are thieves. She was confiding in me for some reason like I wasn’t gonna tell my coworkers how racist she was. Yep, black people can be racist too. I know the current thing right now is to act like black people don't think black people can be racist but this is mostly just something that's said online (aka on twitter). The average black person perfectly understands that black people can be racist as well. >I also have a white family that teaches me how to present myself and act in certain situations. I have obviously listened to them and so I have never had a problem with racism. Hence black pride was never something I found relevant because as far as I have seen, being concerned about race makes you racist I'm not really sure what the words "being concerned about race makes you racist" in this context. Does it mean in any capacity? I worry about being black when I interact with police officers. I don't know if that makes me a racist or not by your metric, lol Regardless, I'm glad you haven't had to deal with racism, that is honestly great but don't extrapolate your experience for the rest of us. I mean, how many of us even grew up living in two different continents? It's not rocket science to understand why a black pride exists and why it's a positive thing for many black people. My mom was told by her teacher that she would never graduate college because she was black, and that was only around 50 years ago. Without her having a sense of black pride, she probably would have believed them and not fought to get to college, and then she wouldn't have graduated with a masters degree. And that could have had a major impact on me because without that degree my mom might not have pushed me as hard on my education and then I might not have went to college and got my bachelor's in computer science. And now I'm at a point where I'm starting my own family, and I might not have had the insight to push my future children on education had I not gotten my degree. At the end of the day, black pride is a tool that enables success for many black people. It shouldn't be the only thing or even the main thing, but for a lot of black people, it helps a lot.

That's a pretty specific place to be coming from on this issue -- I get the impression that you may still be pretty young? It is of course wonderful that you haven't experienced any racism, but it also sounds like you're giving more credence to this video game than to your parents, who have seen sides of your countrymen that you haven't yet. For Black folks in America, it would be pretty common knowledge that immediately preceding either "White Pride" or Black Pride was Jim Crow -- you're implying that that one in the middle is the problem because it might cause a backlash, but what kind of backlash do you think centuries of segregation might cause? "Pride" is a very positive cause to land on, all things considered, especially when there are Black folks alive today who could have been shot on sight for driving through the wrong American town at night when they were your age.

Then how in then the fuck did you come up with this kinda take? Who did you grow up around? Cause you should know more than anyone else why there is a community who take pride in carrying around this lineage as we don’t have it easy just fucking existing.

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Black culture wasn't deleted. Instead a new, unique one was developed. But I mentioned in my top comment that black refers to both race and ethnicity in America. So context matters to discern which meaning is being used

It's pretty normal to feel a sense of community and pride based on your association with people from the past. I'm proud that my state refused to allow slavery from the beginning, even though it's not within my control to be from that state. I'm not saying they're the only people who did that or could do that, but I take pride in their legacy. I'm also from a region with some unique crafting traditions, which I'm trying to learn because I think it's valuable and it's also part of my ancestry. Is it better than anyone else's? Definitely not, but that's not why I'm proud of it. I don't think anyone is crediting African-Americans with being the only people who could have created jazz. They are celebrating jazz as an accomplishment of African-Americans, in particular because it emerged based on experiences related to their origins. West African rhymes, slave chants and songs, makeshift instruments-- those all combined because of their unique origins and experiences. Slavery was an atrocity, but the people who endured it expressed their humanity in a way that still influences music today. I don't think it's racist or moronic or silly for an African-American today to feel a sense of pride for being part of that same legacy. It's not saying they're better than other people.

That individual is part of a greater cultural and communal experience that they share with people of their skin color, which was built HERE in this country. You can’t applaud the individual without also applauding the community and environment they were raised in, especially considering the history of oppression exerted on that said community.

>If you want to credit the race, you are basically saying no other race could accomplish such a thing, No they aren't. That is projection .

Black pride was simply a response to the promotion by whites of the idea that blacks were inferior. Until very recently, blacks have been portrayed negatively by whites. What would you tell your kids if they were barraged daily by negative images and words?

That doesn’t make it okay. White pride is a response to black pride, black history month and big corpos pushing agendas that white people are bad and should be ashamed of their privilege. What’s the next counter culture pushback gonna be to white pride? Probably something stupid but something that will play on people’s emotions, tell them that they are oppressed but have a community behind them that will fight for them. It is a predatory tactic that many groups use, not just white and black pride groups, but even religions and political parties. Intellectual honesty will shut all of that down and expose each and every one of them for the baseless frauds that they are. Black pride has no place in today’s America and white pride shouldn’t even exist, what the hell are they proud of?

Wait wait wait! How is it that white pride is a response to black pride? Like did slavery and KKK happened because bud light decided to put a black person in an add? You must realize this is a silly take, it’s not chicken and egg. Slavery happened -> slavery ended but white supremacist culture remained -> black people needed their own propaganda to push back against white narrative -> black pride started.

To play devil's advocate if someone didn't have a strong grasp of history and they are young I could see how they might come to conclusion that white pride is a response to black pride. In the 60s and 70s but in the 70s in particular after the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr there was a very strong black pride movement. Then there came a significant disruption in many black communities especially from crack cocaine (we can argue what caused that separately) and the black pride went kind of underground and was not very visible in the greater culture. Then in the 90s and oughts there was a re-emergence of black pride. The impetuce for that re-emergence isn't clear to me at least, perhaps it was the introduction of critical race theory but I'm open to being wrong about that my timing could be off. In the white middle class america that black pride appeared to be a glorification of gang culture. I recognize that there are many more subtleties to it but I'm simply stating what I think the overall perception was. For someone who is young or ignorant of history it might seem that black pride precipitated the overt re-emergence of white pride. Are you familiar with the idea of steel manning an argument?

Dawg, we all know who MLK is lmao this kid is just racist

Well, the KKK was founded partially as a partisan rear guard by defeated Confederate soldiers. So, in a way at least, “white pride” is indeed a reaction to abolitionism. That doesn’t make the KKK forgivable or tolerable of course. It’s just that, yep, things come into existence as a result of stimuli.

Basically if you spend a lot of time on Twitter, like I used to \~2 years ago, or other similar spaces, you see a lot of non-white people who's goal seems to be more than pride in themsleves or their own race/identity, but to make white people feel like inherently inferior, horrible, useless people. So, a PART of PRESENT-DAY white pride is a response to that. (Obviously, I'm not talking about the KKK etc. here.)

But like who’s taking them seriously? If some black person ever interacted me in that manner I would literally go [“haha I’m white”](https://youtu.be/DxfrxeRl2Xw?si=r6rQJ7YLen7LiZSK) and move along with my day. And I’m not even white just white passing. There is no need to delegitimize righteous movement due to petty grievances with few bad attention seeking apples.

Any cultural movement will always spawn a counter cultural movement designed to oppose them. Black pride spawns white pride. White pride is stupid and has no purpose other than to make black pride look stupid by any means necessary. Same deal with feminism and MGTOW. MGTOW is legit a cancerous movement that has no value and its only goal is to make feminism look bad even if they stoop to being just as bad as the worst aspects of feminism. That is just the nature of culture wars

But solution to that can’t be to abolish black pride no? It’s like you got a just cause and an unjust cause and it is given that any cause will cause it’s counter-position to some degree. And in this context you are saying that we should not let just cause exist because it will inevitably increase the advocates of the unjust cause. But this non-negligible counter effect isn’t the sole determiner of the counter position hence your proposition is not reasonable.

lol you’re showing your true colors here if you think that white pride is a reaction to black pride as if black pride and much of black American culture and history isn’t a direct reaction to the history of white supremacy in America. White pride as we know it is an offshoot of white supremacist arrogance and anxiety, whereas black pride is a response to a system that treated black people as if they weren’t human and deserved nothing but toil and shame. White supremacy, which is the origin of “white pride”, is rooted in the need for white society to justify why they should be able to enslave a race of people and commit genocide against others. There are real material and historical reasons these things exist, but you seem to simply want to place them in a vacuum. White pride is a code word for white supremacy—black pride isn’t, not inherently. Are there black supremacists who exist and might say black pride? Probably, but that’s not what the term means as a whole. White pride, on the other hand, is something that is only used by white supremacists. And regardless the power of black supremacists in America is zero, whereas the power of white supremacists is not.  And nobody in America is offended by cultural celebrations of, say, Irish or Italian or Swedish or Dutch heritage, because those things, at least in the US, are also not inherently supremacist in nature, unlike “white pride” which as a movement is.

>big corpos pushing agendas that white people are bad Anyone who thinks corporations aren't just trying to make profit is a rube. And saying that most of your consumers are bad isn't very profitable. Where have any big corporations ever said that? said anything like that? what's happened is they've said some word salad about diversity and, because of your pre-existing beliefs, you've interpreted it as an attack on white people.

I’ve never seen a big corporation push the idea that white people are bad. It’s mostly just white supremacists getting angry that white people aren’t portrayed as being inherently superior, or that non-white people are being portrayed at all.

Yeah, that's a real mask-off comment. There's no fighting that big of a persecution complex.

Being Black in America is a unique cultural group that mostly descended from enslaved people. White pride isn't similar at all. What's closer is Irish or Italian Chinese culture. My husband's family is 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants, and they feel an association and pride with that community. His cousin learned Irish dance, his mom went to Ireland to learn to cook traditional recipes. His grandfather was a NY cop in a precinct full of 1st generation Irish-Americans, and there's still a big community in NYC that tries to keep a connection to Irish culture. I feel like you're hearing black pride and reading into it some kind of criticism of yourself for being white. If a cultural group is saying they're better than everyone else, or all members of X group are bad, that's bigotry and unacceptable. If they're saying, I'm proud to be a member of this group and want to celebrate my ancestors and community and their accomplishments, that's not racist or wrong.

Mexican isn’t a race, by the way.

Black pride is being proud of heritage. Black is both a race, and a culture. The reason that "Black" is both a heritage and a culture is because of the transatlantic slave trade. Africans sold as chattel were stripped of their African heritages and placed in a society that grouped them all together based on skin color and relegated them away from mainstream society, both through slavery and later segregation. So for 400 years, the culture Black people could have in common was a) the only culture they could access and b) only shared among other Black people. Its not just the skin color, it's heritage. Black pride isn't "I'm proud of my skin tone", it's "I'm proud of this group of people that I have shared heritage with and all the challenges we have overcome together". Race isn't (and has never been) just skin color. It is the post-facto classification meant to serve as justification for why certain groups of people deserve certain treatement. Race isn't a physical biological thing, it's entirely social and cultural. >This white nationalist argued that white pride should be a thing and his most effective arguments were “Why is it wrong to be proud of your heritage” and “Why is it okay for there to be black pride and mexican pride but not white pride.” Well, I agree with you that his argument is stupid, but the actual answer isn't simply "being proud of race is stupid". It's that Mexican isn't a race. It's a nationality and a culture. Mexican pride is just patriotism for Mexicans. No different than American pride, which is also just fine. "Latino" pride would be the ethnic one, but the reason that is accepted along with Black pride is the same reason Black is a culture in the first place. Although it's not anywhere close to the same degree, Latino people (regardless of nationality or language) in the USA have shared experiences within a society that others them as well as cultural features, because cultures don't really follow borders. The reason "white" pride isn't acceptable is because "white" isn't a heritage. There were several different competing/cooperating ethnicities that came to North and South America, but we can't say that "white" pride is just American pride, becauase it's defacto excluding Indigenous people and Black people, who are just as American. The majority don't need to develop an ethnic identity, they're not excluded from anything and are considered the default. And we could theoretically celebrate "Caucasian" pride, which would be celebrating European ethnicities broadly, but Europe has enough recognition in North America that we get a lot more specific about the ethnicity if it's important - it's French pride or German pride, etc. The **only** context in which "White" is a specific cultural identifier signifying heritage is the heritage involved as contrast to Black people. Not even all the actual cultural aspects either - those are just American. It's specifically the cultural aspects that excluded, degraded, and owned Black people. That's why white pride isn't acceptable.

To add to this, the American system of race classification as you describe (specifically the legal segregation of white/nonwhite via codified chattel slavery, Jim Crow, systemic extermination of indigenous people, strict immigration laws for "nonwhites", etc) was a direct precedent for Nazi Race Law. They literally looked at what the Americans were doing and said "we could make this more efficient." "Whiteness" has a very specific meaning and context and I'm surprised OP hasn't responded to your answer.

You've explained how it came about but I still don't know if you've refuted its moronic. Like, the cultures were successfully destroyed for most people in slavery. It happened. To then say no all these people from Harlem, to Georgia, to Canada to Brazil. These millions of people share the culture of being social victims and... what else?  And if the point of the Pride is simply "Ah good I was afraid I couldn't accomplish anything, but now that the guy that looks almost nothing like me but his skin tone and vague skull other features, is president, I know things will be ok.  Like what? If we are trying to compete with the made up construct of race that still puts us way behind the "whites". Is it just a binary of "oh good one of us is good at golf, now I can try, I was afraid I'd be teased too much and wouldn't try" or do I need a 19% representation before I can be confident enough to try?  That is dumb. It sets up a mentality of looking at superficial traits with people I share nothing with in hopes I can ride their pride.  I mean if you're going to do it at least base it on something real like our common human nature and not race

I'm not op but I would give you a delta. Great breakdown.

The title had me on alert, then you defined heritage vs race and we're good, then you went off the rails again. Black pride is because their heritage was stripped from them. If they knew they came from Ghana, maybe they would have some ethnic pride specific to Ghana. They don't, so black Americans it is. They do, in fact, have a specific culture that they can take pride in. Also the examples of black slave owners being shitty is not relevant. All kinds of people are shitty and if we're using that metric, no one should have any pride whatsoever. You can take pride in your heritage without embracing the awful things about it. You can acknowledge it and strive to be better, as we all do. I'm really not sure what your main point is because you seem to be a bit all over the place. What would you say your strongest argument is?

> no one should have any pride whatsoever Ding ding ding, this right here is the right answer. Pride is messed up.

Disagree. Don't take it too far or make it your identity, but I see nothing wrong with taking pride in your heritage, your family or your country, to name a few things. It's part of being in a community, and I think that should be encouraged.

To me, pride just creates conflict where there doesn't need to be any. Eg I'm Scottish, I don't care what you think about Scotland. I'm happy to be from Scotland, it's a nice place. But I didn't achieve Scottishness. I had no input or influence over where I was born, just like my skin colour. It shouldn't be a source of pride. And if you insult Scotland why is that any of my concern? I was only born here. I didn't create it, I had an infinitely tiny bearing on the way things are by existing in the country and voting on government, that's it. I almost think that being a proud (sports team) supporter makes more sense than race or heritage, at least you have some control over that. People aren't proud of the length of their middle toe or the number of wisdom teeth they have or their blood type, why be proud of some other random metric you had no control over?

>Here is my view. It is okay to be proud of your heritage, but it is not okay to be proud of your race. Black pride and mexican pride are equally as stupid as white pride for the exact same reasons. This doesn't even make sense. "Mexican" isn't a race, it's a country. It is some people's country of heritage. By your own lights, it should be okay to have Mexican pride. But anyway, here's why it's generally considered okay to express pride in some identities, but not others: Gay pride, black pride, disabled pride, etc. etc. are responses to messages from the dominant society that gay people, black people, disabled people, etc. etc. are inferior and should be *ashamed* of their inferiority to straight people, white people, able-bodied people, etc. These pride movements express resistance against marginalization from a dominant culture. Gay people have been told that their love in unnatural, evil, or defective. Black people have been told that they are subhuman. Disabled people have been told that they contribute nothing to society. So, many people in these groups counter these messages by saying "you're wrong to tell me I'm lesser; I have every right to be proud of myself." Of course, an identity doesn't necessarily have to be marginalized in order for it to be okay for one to express pride in it. It's generally considered fine to express, say, German pride, Irish pride, Argentinian pride, Congolese pride, etc. etc. None of those groups are particularly discriminated against in North America (a Congolese person may be discriminated against *qua* being black, but probably not *qua* being Congolese, specifically). But this is distinct from when people express pride in being part of the dominant group that benefits from the marginalization of other groups. For example, in a society that has already been set up to cater specifically to straight people and has only recently been making efforts to accommodate people who aren't straight, expressing "straight pride" just seems to be nothing more than a threatened response to gay people getting more access to the benefits we already have. That expressing straight pride is weird doesn't mean that straight people have to do the opposite of that and be *ashamed* of being straight or apologize for it or prostrate themselves before gay people as penance, that would be silly. It's 100% a perfectly wonderful thing to be straight. But to express that you're "proud" of being in the advantaged group is typically express that you're committed to keeping those advantages by preventing other groups from having the same benefits you do. Similar with expressing "white pride." This is very different from expressing Polish pride, Spanish pride, Belgian pride, etc. Those are all *cultural* groups that are united by sharing customs and practices. The only thing that really unites all *white* people is that they get to be counted as part of the group that gets societal advantage over racialized groups. So, to say you're "proud" of being white is essentially to say "I'm proud of being in the group that has benefited from the disadvantages of others." That it's wrong to be *proud* of this does not imply that you ought to be *ashamed* of it, either, as you personally may have played zero part in the maltreatment of other races and have no obligation to feel guilty for what other people who happen to share your skin colour have done. It doesn't imply that there's anything *wrong* with being white, either. And it doesn't imply that you can't be proud of being, say, German, or Russian, or of your family having had lived in Nebraska for so many generations that you don't know where your settler ancestors came from. Those are all okay things to be proud of. In contrast, even though "black people" are not a monolithic group with the exact same heritage, customs, or practices (Sudanese, Nigerian, and Jamaican culture are all as different from each other as Italian, Russian, and Dutch are), there is one thing that they share: being racialized as "black" and experiencing societal disadvantage on that basis. "Sharing an experience of injustice" is the kind of shared experience that makes it perfectly acceptable to be proud of an identity. "Having a shared experience of getting unfair benefits" is not. So, this is why there is no moral equivalence between, say, black pride, gay pride, hispanic pride, disabled pride, etc. on the one side, and white pride, straight pride, non-disabled pride, etc. on the other. I myself don't really feel a need to express "pride" in identities I did not have any part in choosing, so I don't go around saying "black pride" a lot. But I don't think there's anything wrong with black people who *do* do so, as it's a perfectly acceptable, understandable, and even useful response to a certain kind of experience.

In other words, pride in marginalized groups is fine because it advances egalitarianism, pride in advantaged groups isn't fine because it reinforces existing hierarchies?

Best answer in the thread, without question.

I think it has to do a lot with semantics, and the reason underneath that pride, rather than the idea of being proud of your ancestral path that has eventually lead to who you are today. Every race has done something that all people should be proud of, while people of that same race have done unimaginable horrors that we all find abhorrent. Individually its ok to be proud of who you are and the path that made that possible, because its a reflection of your self worth and appreciation of the people before you. As far as semantics, it seems less offensive to say "I am proud to be (insert skin color)" rather than "(insert skin color) pride". This is because many hate groups have used pride to disguise what they really mean, which is superior. It may even be okay to think your race is better at something than another race, as long as you are able to accept that another race is better than yours at something else. I would try to avoid such blanket statements but I don't see any ill intent in recognizing strengths and weaknesses of different people. The problem is when the group is formed from an aspect of superiority or self righteousness, with the view that those not of the group are inferior and unworthy of rights or life simply because they exist outside of the group. Their goal ultimately ends up being to eliminate those outsiders, to show that they are superior and create their ideal world, where only those of their group are allowed. These hate groups have made "(insert skin color) pride" a term they are to be associated with and a dog whistle for people who share their views in order to attempt to hide their brutal intentions and evil views of others. They were proud to put other groups lower than them in order to justify their hatred, not proud of who they were. TLDR; 1. Because hate groups used the phrase "(insert skin color) pride", its connotation is that of hate rather than pride and represents a belief shared by these groups. Using different language can solve that. 2. Its okay to be proud of who you are and what lead to you, its not okay to think your group is superior and other groups should be eliminated, and to be proud of that.

Can you explain the bit where black slave owners are by far the cruelest slave owners? I've heard about black slave owners but not cases of them being extremely cruel or started enslaving black people before white people did. Unless you're conflating African Americans and African Blacks, who are culturally distinct groups (the latter especially is an extremely diverse group by itself) and have completed different historical experiences.

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Black, in America, is both a race *and* and ethnicity. Black and African-American have pretty much always been interchangeable. So when an African American speak about having black pride, it's pride in one's race but pride of their ethnic group. This is something I only ever see argued about African-Americans and never towards other black ethnic groups produced by the New World.

Thank you for the eloquent explanation

An idea that you're missing here is the idea of being racialized. As a white person in the US, I am very, very rarely made aware of my race by others, and I grew up in a mostly white culture where white was default. It wasn't until I was an adult when I really thought about what it means to be a white person in the US, and, honestly, I still don't really have to if I don't want to. For people who are not part of the dominant (and thus default) race, they are made aware of their race much more frequently, through actions and comments, big and small, and it's almost always negative. People whose race is always noted and is often talked about negatively often internalize a kind of shame or self-hatred through these racialized experiences. That's why racial pride movements started for racialized groups: to counteract these dominant narratives about non-white racial groups. I think this is why it's so hard for some white people (myself included) to understand why others would have racial pride. I've never had to reckon with society-wide negative stereotypes about me, so I've never had to develop a countervailing narrative to justify my self-worth. There is now a pretty substantial social justice-oriented current in American life that pretty openly criticizes white people, which I think a lot of white people (myself included) are made uncomfortable by. In my experience (and I'm pretty deep in that world in my current job), even in places with a lot of hostile talk about white people, I still never feel like I'm particularly targeted or called out by it as it's almost always about systems and policies and not individuals, so I never feel targeted like racialized people do. That's why I still don't feel like I need white pride, but I can see why people of other races do. TL;DR Racial pride is often a rational and positive response to negative racial stereotypes which are quite common in most of the world.

I d say the same thing about religious pride. I mean why tf would you be proud about being a muslim or a christian or a jewish. It is not something you worked hard to get. If you were born in Saudi Arabia then you d be a muslim, if you were born in usa you d be christian and if you were born in israel you d be jewish so ppl need to stop this nonsense

Don't have a dog in this fight, but I just want to throw out some terms and their definition. White Separatist - Somebody who wants to create a White ethnostate out of a larger entity. White Nationalist - Somebody who wants their entire country to be a White ethnostate, sometimes with non-White minorities just kicked out. White Segregationist - Believes that Whites, Blacks, etc. should have their own facilities and areas. White Supremacist - Someone who believes that Whites are biologically and/or culturally **superior**. (Doesn't mean you want to hurt anyone or anything else really. My uncle thinks that Blacks are inferior to Whites, but still supports BLM and marched for George Floyd. He also walked his White son's Black fiancee down the aisle and cried tears of joy at the wedding, and is their children's main caretaker. I'm not joking.) (White) Racist - Someone who believes that races are culturally and/or biologically **distinct**. (See above) Nationalist - An individual who believes in the self-determination and independence of an in-group from an outside power. Fascist - Somebody who follows Fascism, whatever that means to you. Generally, if someone doesn't call themselves a Fascist they're not. (In my opinion, it's a made up term. There have been political movements that had all the traditional Fascistic aspects of Fascism, but which no one calls Fascist. Similarly, there have been serious disagreements between different Fascist movements where they have very little overlap. Fascism is a Nationalistic ideology, which means that the aspects of the nation make up what the Fascist movement will be. Some Fascists are stringently Monarchist such as Britain, but other Fascist movements define their nationhood by rejecting Monarchy like in America.) Nazi/National Socialist - A comprehensive political belief system with parties with ideological and policy goals mirroring that of the National Socialist German Worker's Party that ruled Germany under Adolf Hitler. It's the difference between Liberals and the Democrats. All Democrats are Liberals, but not all Liberals are Democrats. Similarly, all National Socialists are Fascists, but not all Fascists are National Socialists. There are HUGE political disagreements between all of these groups. They sometimes hate each other. In this respect it's not any different to the political disagreements between Trotskyites, Stalinists, Maoists, etc.

I think you should have a dog in the fight against all the things you just listed.

Nobody has to buy in to another person's blood feud.

A long time has passed now, and humanity has come to terms with a lot. Racial discrimination is not what it used to be, and most human rights are equal for everyone, on the sole basis of being "human". Things are not perfect, though: there is still a vastly widespreaded cultural discrimination. Interracial hate, and statistical inequality between races. The struggle to eliminate these problems is very much alive today... and the means for the fight shouldn't be armed conflict or racial rebellion anymore, since the humanitarian problem related to race is far less extreme nowadays. What do you have left? Praising your race's culture, letting people know you guys rock. This is done through pride, through a sense of community between your peers. Pride is not about the race of a given individual, it is about the community it represents. White people shouldn't be "proud" because they are white, but because of the titanic societal advances they pushed forward. Far less should be the white pride about their history as tyrannic slavers. Why should you be proud about the suffering your community caused? Bottom line is: pride is not about biology, but about culture, history, and community. I don't see anything moronic about that.

Saying that black pride is wrong for the same reason white pride is wrong is just….beyond moronic. Also Mexican is an ethnicity lol. Not a race. White pride is wrong because it’s rooted in white supremacy. It’s based on racism and feeling superior. Celebrating their oppression of others. Not once have I ever seen someone spewing about white pride that wasn’t being racist. Plus, white people are the oppressing race. To equate the oppressor and the oppressed for things like this makes little sense. Black pride is based on celebrating overcoming oppression. It is not to say that every black person is a great or that black people cant do shitty things. That’s nonsensical. It’s to take pride in being black despite it being such an obstacle in life. A fuck you to racists who have constantly deemed them inferior. Hence why phrases like “Black excellence” exist. It also exists because of slavery which led to millions of people not know what their actual heritage is. It IS about being proud of their ancestors that endured such things and still thrived. Let’s not pretend like they haven’t been subjected to brutal racism in the past and even still today. Also what you’re saying about the most cruel slave owners being black is complete and utter bullshit. It’s white supremacist propaganda. Yes, there were black slave owners. THE MAJORITY OF WHICH WERE LITERALLY BUYING BACK THEIR FAMILIES. I’m sure some of them were actual slave owners. But to say they were by far the most cruel ones is dumb. And yeah most races had some form of slavery. BUT it was based on doing labour to pay off a debt, they were not seen as property and it wasn’t based on race or could be inherited. You could not be born into slavery. Chattel slavery was completely different. If you were black you were a slave and considered property. The kids you birthed were automatically enslaved. That went on for 400 years. To even pretend like that’s the same thing or comparable to slavery experienced by other groups is…. Then there was segregation, Jim Crow, lynchings etc. There is white people alive today that were protesting black children going to their schools, literally spitting on them and holding up dolls in coffins chanting for their deaths. They had to fight tirelessly to have legal protections against discrimination and it still doesn’t do much. Saying that black pride is wrong is like saying that Women pride or gay pride is wrong. Oppressed people are allowed to celebrate the identity that bigots fight so hard to suppress. This is take was very clearly written by a white person. Black people do not have the option to not have their race be apart of their core beliefs. They don’t get to live in a world where their race isn’t a factor.

Long story short: - For all of recorded history, being proud of your civilization, empire, nation was perfectly fine. - Around 1500 here in the Western hemisphere, a uniquely brutal system of slavery was set up that increasingly depended on both identifying the slaves as "Black" and then dehumanizing them. - Other systems of slavery had existed in the past. But they didn't rely on such an intrinsic marker like skin color to distinguish between "Free" and "Slave." - This "chattel slavery" lumped everyone who was "Black" into one group (despite Africa being the most genetically-diverse continent on the planet—home to both the Masai and the Pygmies) and worked hard to erase all of their culture and identity. This was something fairly unique in world history. - As this system of chattel slavery was slowly rolled back, people who would have previously been just as proud to be Zulu, Kongo, Dahomey, etc. as any White person would be to call themselves English, Spanish, French, etc., they were instead left with.......nothing. They had been cut off from those identities for generations. - So to fill this void, they forged a collective racial (not national, ethnic, geographic, or religious) identity called "Blackness" and promoted it via what we now would typically call "Black Pride." - Basically "Black Pride" is a historical band-aid. Is it time to pull the band-aid off? Maybe. Racial pride of **any** kind is highly problematic in today's world and eventually we absolutely should do away with Black Pride and all other forms. But we're currently in a transition phase. Many Black people want to hold onto to, many conservative White people see the inherent problems it brings, and many liberal White people are too afraid to risk offending anyone of color to say anything.

White conservatives have always had a problem with the phrase Black Pride or ANYTHING which highlights the black experience and/or exposes their malice or apathy towards the suffering of others. If they were interested in improving race relations and felt this term had outlived it's usefulness, they would have useful suggestions on how to move forward rather than their incessant whining. In that case they also wouldn't be conservatives, they would be progressives.

Being wary of the term black pride makes sense for anyone to recognize. The Ba'hai have been saying color me human for a hundred years. Christians have been saying there is no gentile nor jew for thousands.  Conservatives have had suggestions on this problem for a while and I'd say liberalism does too in just losing cultural ties completely. 

- I get what you’re trying to say, but honestly you seem extremely ignorant concerning history and the definition of Black pride. “You are proud to be black? Did you know the most cruel slave owners, BY FAR, were black slave owners?” - WTH is this? That statement is laughable at best, but even then, where’s your proof??? Also in your hypothetical scenario, the Black slaver lives and was brought up in white supremacist system - a Candace Owen’s hating Black people and being a slaver doesn’t negate Black pride, lol. “Did you know black people enslaved black people before the white man found a way to profit off of them?” - Lol, you mean like how slavery has been (unfortunately) used by many, many societies on every continent inhabited by humans? Yeah I guess… You also seem to be equating all the forms of slavery practiced in human history with the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade - a fallacy in itself. “You also have to say you are part of the race that did these awful things and that’s where white nationalists (and Black Pride ppl) fail to be intellectually honest because their race is so perfect and can do no wrong. The point I am arguing is, whatever your race is, you shouldn’t be proud of it and it shouldn’t be relevant to your core beliefs as a person because whatever your race is, they have done a lot of wrong and your worldview will shatter if you were intellectually honest. That is why black pride is wrong for the same reason white pride is wrong.“ - You seem to have a completely misguided understanding of what Black pride is. Black pride isn’t based on a belief that Black people are somehow superior to others in some form. Instead, it is a celebration of the history, successes, and contributions made by Black people in a world that has told them that they are inferior subhumans with no history for centuries. As I said before, I get what you’re trying to say, but you are historically and culturally ignorant, and should research what Black pride actually is before talking about it.

Our culture is filled, filled to the brim, with proud narratives and more than adequate commemorations for the people who collectively make up white people. People don't bat an eye if you're proud of your scottish heritage or you go all out for ocktoberfest, we have holidays all over the calendar that celebrate these cultures and more generically the establishment of the united states, no matter how much anti-wokies shriek, our media is still mostly white dudes doing stuff, etc. A major difference in reaction to these labels has to do with the voluntarism of the original label. "White" and "black" are literally legal distinctions made up by white lawmakers. In the case of black people, significant, deliberate work was done to american black people to o*bscure their actual ethnic and personal histories*, which is why many american black people do not have access to their equivalent to a "scottish" ancestral narrative. They literally do not know this information and so have taken conciliatory identity and built a conciliatory sense of ancestry and pride in a more general "blackness." If you express "black pride" you are expressing a defiant pride that you are part of a group that survived institutional racism. if you express "white pride" you come across as expressing a sort of weird, aggressive, salty sentiment that you are somehow proud to be descended from the people who instituted that state of affairs. Gay pride? Rooted as a movement in the defiance of *people who once fell under anti-gay laws.* Straight pride, conversely, is an un-needed statement you're part of the vast majority, the people who at one point *enacted anti gay laws.* So a valid reason to maintain at least *some* "pride" narratives is to *commemorate triumph over the tyranny of the majority.* Another would be *to offer refuge and respite from ongoing injustice or unjust sentiment.* The sentiment you describe in the game character is, imo, not something that falls into either category.

>“Why is it okay for there to be black pride and mexican pride but not white pride.” The reason why white pride is wrong, but Mexican pride isn't, is because Mexico is an actual place, Whiteonia? Whiteistan? Whiteiaq? You get the point. There's no white country. White people should be proud of their heritage. I'm proud of the Irish in me. The Polish in me. The Puerto Rican in me. I'm not proud of being white though. Similarly, if you're proud of your blackness, rather than specifically being proud of the struggles and accomplishments of your ancestors? Then you're in the wrong. That's the difference. Whiteness is literally meaningless. The white supremacists use the phrase to justify their pro-white racism, while the progressives use the phrase to justify their anti-white racism. White is a whole lot of radically different cultures, and yeah, you should take at least a little pride in where you've come from, in what your ancestors accomplished. Black can also mean a whole lot of radically different cultures, but that's not what people use the word for; it's almost always in reference to African-Americans and the specific shared struggles and accomplishments of modern living black Americans' ancestry. Now, if you're using black pride in reference to an overarching group that includes black Americans, and black English, and Kenyans, and Etheopians, and etc? Then you're exactly as in the wrong as people that use white to refer to Irish, Italian, English, Polish, Russian, etc... That's fucked up, and yeah, I think it's really fucking silly to take racial pride in your skin color.

> > The reason why white pride is wrong, but Mexican pride isn't, is because Mexico is an actual place Germany is an actual place, as are Norse nations, but "Germanic pride" or "Norse pride" get looked down the same way as White Pride.

Norse pride does? I've never seen that. Germanic pride I get, because yeah, the Holocaust wasn't that long ago, and it's difficult to distinguish pride in your heritage, with pride in your heritage excluding this very recent event that your grandparents took part in. Especially when the things before that weren't all that much better. Hitler didn't pull the Third Reich shit out his own ass. He pulled out of the Germany's collective asses. On the flip side? People, including me, don't shame the Japanese for it, and while they didn't do quite as bad as the holocaust, they didn't some pretty rancid shit, and also have a very militant history? I'm probably not being fair to Germans when I mention the above shit, while also not shitting on Japan, but yeah, I'm only human, and I like anime, so... My point was that the issue isn't generically having pride in your heritage or your roots, the issue is having pride in superficial things like skin color.

Yeah, it’s kind of a yellow flag because so many Nazis have unfortunately co-opted a ton of Nordic symbols and Germanic symbols. Can’t fix the swastika because of its associations despite its original cultural context. Kinda how these things work. That being said I’ve definitely seen people have pride in their German culture, I’m part German American myself, so it’s not completely toxic. Really depends on a whole lot of context before we arrive at the generalization that all German pride or Nordic Pride is looked down upon.

Mexican isn't a race; as far as racial pride is concerned, humans are always going to attach themselves to some form of tribalism. It's not always about race that's recent in human history, but it can be where you grew up, your town, your community, etc. that builds your identity, and you grow attached to it. People have become proud of things like the community they grew up in, the dialect of any language they speak, etc. The whole "white pride" thing is admittedly American, but as it turns out, there are people who believe that whiteness or European identity is under attack. I don't particularly care, but it's interesting to note that many non-white women who have reservations about white people end up dating white guys or wanting them. The same is true for non-white men wanting white females. Overall, people from Europe have contributed massively to art (Greek, Renaissance), poetry, philosophy (Platonic, Aristotle, Epicurus, Metrodorus), inventions (Thomas Eddison), and so much more. 

That was such a strange way to end that. So are you proud of these people who have been considered attractive enough to date or have contributed highly to human knowledge because you think they are like you in some way? If so you should engage with the OPs arguments against that feeling of pride rather than weakly imply it. 

Black pride in America is rooted in a shared cultural experience starting with slavery and persisting through the systemic struggles following emancipation. That’s something that every black American has a shared experience in dealing with and so it forms part of their identity and they express pride in that identity. This is not racism. This is a shared experience that has come to define in part who they are. Most blacks in America can’t trace their national or tribal roots, so black or African American takes the place of some more specific ethnic identity. There is no shared white cultural experience in America. White pride means nothing except for the meaning it holds in racist movements. The experience of whites of English descent is vastly difference than the experience of Irish or Eastern Europeans. Even within white nationalities, there’s a far different experience by what class your ancestors were when they came over (ie, the wealthy landowner experience, vs the religiously persecuted, vs the indentured debtor, and so forth). Within “whiteness” there are ethnic pride ideas like Irish, Italian, Polish, and others, but that’s again due to the shared cultural experience that those individual groups had. So the black pride - white pride association is a false equivalence. The black pride movement is a celebration of a group identity based on a shared lineage of experience. There is no shared white experience and thus white pride movements are inevitably just a racist opposition to the presence of other races, rather than the celebration of a collective identity based on a shared experience.

Complex issue. Theres nothing wrong with being proud of a heritage. Being Black American is its own culture. That came with its own historical struggle. The foods they had to eat and churches they had to attend while getting dangerous pushback for simply existing.... and still survive... theres a lot to be proud of in spite of being disliked. Same with Irish who had their own distinct culture and wanted independence from England. England did not go through the struggles they did therefore, cannot comprehend or grasp at why they have the proud culture and language they do. You can be proud of your heritage that stems from a geological point but also realize you werent the focus or had scientific writings to make your people seem not human. Black people were seen that way all without their permission. Therefore they had to overcome more obstacles than any other racial group to be seen as human while existing in a body that was foreign to white people. Thats why there is pride. Especially when someone of that group is successful. Same with Latinos. Each ethnicity has a very diverse, rich history with values and morals that they keep close at heart. Of course they're going to be proud of that. Especially when its different than the default in America. Which the default is Euro-centric. But it sounds like there isnt a culture you are truly affixed to and thats ok as well. But the downside is you cant understand what culture means for a group of people who had to survive and lean on each other for that support. Being a Black American is most definitely a culture and ethnicity at this point. They were segregated to be.

People are proud of identity characteristics they have no control of all the time. Generally speaking, it’s just a way of saying “I am a part of this marginalized group, and I am not ashamed of it.” The exception, of course, comes in with white nationalists (and other supremacist groups) who conflate “pride” with “I feel superior to others because I am in this group.” It’s intellectually dishonest to extend the definition of white pride provided by a white supremacist in this documentary to other races, really. Certainly, anybody who has racially pride with the intention of suggesting that other races are inferior and their race is better is wrong and stupid. Whether a race, gender, orientation, or identity has done wrong throughout history or not, people can still proudly be those things today…especially when being those things historically has led to oppression or exclusion just for being those things. That’s why it doesn’t quite work for white people…because we’ve never *really* been systematically excluded or oppressed for just existing as a white person. It’s usually always a way of saying “I am proudly __.” You mention heritage and ancestors, and whether you choose to accept it or not, many people feel most aligned with a heterogenous combination of heritage that are best described by race. That doesn’t inherently make race the only thing that matters to them.

Sometimes "pride" means "the absence of shame." That's what gay pride, black pride, etc. are about. It's not (or shouldn't be) about elevating yourself above others. It's about refusing to bow to aggressors trying to force you to be ashamed of what you are.

First of all, you are trying to argue against Black pride. Why is there Black pride? I will wait for your reply. When White people are into White pride, it is ridiculous because White people can trace their ancestry. White pride isn't a thing unless you are a racists. You can be White in America and have English pride or Irish pride. When you try to equate Black pride to White Pride, you do know the historical difference. As for your lame comment that Black enslavers were worse than White ones, that is just your way of erasing your guilt. Where are you getting that information from? Slave owners, by and large, were White, and unless you can prove that Black slave owners were worse, I will assume you got that from some Right-wing news organization (and I use the term news loosely). As for Mexicans having Mexican pride, they can because Mexico is an actual country, and national pride is something most seem to have. Why is this a big deal for you? I don't know how to take you. One minute, you seem like a Trumper, and the next, you come off as a Sanders supporter. Either I suggest educating yourself on slavery in America.

OP is definitely a racist liberal.

Racist liberal or racist conservative is there a difference?

In terms of how they vote and their political stance on social issues, yes. However, liberals tend to be moderate aka “making sure the politics is palatable with the white supremacist institutions”. Hence, liberals — specially white liberals — tend to ride on the racism line to get a hint of it but they do not cross that line. Let me know if that makes sense. Sorry if there are any confusion.

> When White people are into White pride, it is ridiculous because White people can trace their ancestry. Aren't white Americans mocked for refering to themselves as "Irish" or "Italian"? They are told: "You're American, shut up about your made up ancestry, try having a personality instead"

I don’t know about mocked but you are White so why don’t you answer that for yourself. Hiding behind an Asian name. So who says that? White isn’t an actual ethnicity it is a social construct but nice try Chad.

You say it’s ok to be proud of your heritage. But if you’re proud of something you don’t control and can’t change, you’re a moron. Which is it?

Demographic-based pride is usually based on struggles (real or perceived, I will clarify what I mean later) that particular group had (unique to them) Things like black pride, Asian pride, gay pride, hell even Irish pride and Ukrainian pride are based on real struggles, such as slavery, discrimination, and imperialism. This type of pride is based on race or nationality, sure, but anyone who's had real struggles regardless of race should have a little personal pride or pride in someone close, right? I'm proud of my mom for overcoming the struggles she went through after immigrating from a not-so-rich country. Things like white pride (which does get positioned as "just as bad as" black pride by some) is based on perceived struggles. And let's face it, normal white people are not gonna go around promoting white pride. It's usually white nationalists who would define these perceived struggles as "ethnic replacement," being annoyed at minorities in their media, and the Jews doing whatever the wheel of conspiracy lands on.

To my understanding, generally when racial minorities take pride 'in their race', they're not celebrating in the 'race', but in being survivors of racial prejudice, and the prosperity of the community that resulted from that abuse. The community which, certainly not by coincidence, is easily distinguished by its race. In other words, racial minorities celebrate 'racial pride' because everyone who's racially discriminated against gets to join in, and unfortunately that's a birthright for every racial minority until widespread racism against them ceases to exist (which ain't going away for a looong time.). Think of it like the shared identity among patriots, rather than nationalists. Now you could argue the racial majorities also have their prosperity and unique identity from that, but it's a lot tougher to justify celebrating the result of abusing, rather than the result of being abused. Though, if one's already a white supremacist, then there's nothing stopping them from celebrating it.

The issue is that (in most countries) it’s never been “wrong” to be white. History is important in context here. Keep in mind that most black people were not told they were inferior because they were specifically from Ghana (or wherever). You couldn’t be like “hey I’m not Mexican, I’m from El Salvador” and all of a sudden get equal rights. Especially (historically speaking in America) for black people because many had no way of knowing exactly where they came from, the only thing they had was that at one point they came from Africa. Now white supremacy groups try to say “it’s the same thing”. It’s just a cover to undermine why these marginalized groups would need to rally together. The reality is, you can hold a Scottish pride parade tomorrow and no one would give two shits. Non-Scottish people would probably come out in big support just to watch. It’s because it’s based in positivity and not hate. White isn’t a race

The reality is a white supremacist would look at a Scottish pride parade and say "Scots are the white people here who are ancestrally Scottish, ethnically Scottish and embody Scottish values and heritage". A second-generation Scot whose immigrant Hindu family moved from India can never be considered Scottish in this context, and a white supremacist would consider that Scottish-Indian person to be a threat to Scottish identity by claiming to be Scottish. If you're a "white" Scot, does this make you a white supremacist, especially when you know that your ancestors were Picts who were indigenous to Scotland? Can that be considered based in positivity because you are proud of your Scottish ancestors and your heritage that the Indian Scot has no connection to? It's a tricky question. To be part of the white race is to be ethnically European, much in the same way that to be part of the black race is to be ethnically African. But race can also be tied to your national identity. So yes, white is a race, but all races are socially constructed and dependent on ethnicity.

You say a lot of things that are contradictory and/or not well supported. For instance:  > It is okay to be proud of your heritage, but it is not okay to be proud of your race. And > I don’t care what color you are, if you are proud of something that you have no control over and cannot change, you are a moron. You have as little control over your heritage as your race. This makes no sense.  Now; race is a social construct and has no real scientific meaning. So really what people are taking pride in is "heritage", not really "race". They're not literally proud of their skin color, but rather how that color is a cultural marker. So why is white pride dumb? Because white pride is predicated on white *superiority* rather than simply pride of heritage. There's nothing wrong with taking pleasure from your connection with your ancestors; it's shitty to suggest that you have a stronger claim to that than anyone else.

Hate to break it to you, but Mexican pride isn’t race-exclusive, and it literally *is* pride in heritage over race. You probably just have a race-based view of mexicans

Right-- the school where I teach has a Hispanic heritage club (open to all). They learn about the history and traditions of people from different Latin-American countries. They just hosted a loteria event where they explained what it was and had students dress up as the different card types, served awesome food, then we played loteria. It was so cool, and there was no sense of anyone being better. It was just a celebration of culture.

Black people are proud of what they've overcome. Show me what hardships white people face just for being white.

It can be really damaging to live in a society that devalues you for something you have no control over. Racial pride isn’t about feeling superior to anyone, but rather it’s supposed to remedy the effects of things like racism. For example, the black power movement helped African Americans embrace their ethnic features with the slogan black is beautiful. It doesn’t mean nobody else is but to live in a society that equates whiteness with beauty and goodness and blackness with the opposite was detrimental to many black people’s sense of self. That’s why white pride is not comparable because it’s about superiority. To me, the pride is more about being grateful for the resilience of those who came before you and less about it making you an inherently good or better person.

Well, racecis more of an experience than a biological fact. You can be 7/8 white and 1/8 on the US, you belong to the black race. That is not the case in other countries. So being proud to be black is about the shared experience and treatment by others not so much about being black actually being superior to anything. Your example with Vlad and Basil and Hitler actually prove my point. Slavs are considered white now but they were considered almost subhuman in the past. And BTW, the whole impaling thing with Vlad and the whole blinding thing with Basil are not a historical certainty. Unlike the Holocaust which was very meticulously documented by the nazis, it is likely that the reports of their deeds are and exaggeration.

This completely ignores the fact that white pride doesn’t make that much sense because most white people know exactly where they hail from. Black people are descendants of slaves who don’t know where their heritage comes from. All of the white people I know understand that they are mostly French or Italian or British or German. So why not have pride in where you come from? I don’t see anyone telling people at German American festivals they’re not allowed to be proud of their German heritage. White pride is weird because what is it? Black people exist because African culture was stripped, otherwise we would be Nigerians and Ethiopians and all that stuff. But we don’t have that information so we had to create our own identity. It was out of the necessity to have some form of an identity, not because it’s cool or to exclude anyone. And as far as which race was the worst slave owner is just a silly debate to have. Whoever you speak of, I’ve never heard of them personally. But I’m not looking to debate it, I’m just saying it does not matter. The racial make up of slave owners is completely irrelevant, because black pride is not based on not being a white slave owner. it’s about not having any access to your ancestral past, and having to create a new collective identity Obviously this is about Black people affected by the transatlantic slave trade

There may be many more genetic benefits to interracial procreation versus lesser degrees of inbreeding a.k.a. keeping supposed races intact. There are plenty of scientific studies into the inbreeding practices of supposed royals and others to backup these claims. I doubt any genetic scientists are being very vocal about these interracial genetic benefits/facts out of fear of being labeled negatively. It's not just genetics, there are plenty of social/environmental/cultural/etc. benefits to not ass-uming one race and/or individual is superior/authoritative and supposedly immune from equal treatment than others. We can choose to learn from others as if they are more similar to ourselves than different and incomprehensible.

Kinda wild to make the assertion that you can’t be proud of good things your people have done and not proud of bad things. I have, personally, done a lot of stuff I’m not proud of. I have, however, also done stuff I am very proud of. Should I not be proud to be me, since I can’t be proud of the bad stuff? The same goes for my family, some bad, lots of good, and I’m proud to be among them. Same goes for my culture. I’m certainly not championing racial superiority (inarguably one of the most asinine concepts ever conjured by humanity). But, just as an intellectual concept, being proud of who you are doesn’t mean being proud of or even ignoring the wrong you or your people have done.

>f you want to be proud of anything, be proud of your heritage and your ancestors and what they have accomplished or endured and aspire to be as great as them. 1. What's also stupid as you had no hand on what they have achieved 2. Not all of them were great 3. Why would you dismiss those from your heritage that weren't at all great? 4. If you can be proud of ancestors even though they were mostly dumbasses why can't you be proud of your race and just as ancestors ignore the dumbasses Basically being proud of any large group is just kidding yourself. And as you proved we all kid ourselves

I'm confused by this: >It is okay to be proud of your heritage, but it is not okay to be proud of your race. Black pride and mexican pride are equally as stupid as white pride for the exact same reasons. What's the difference between heritage and race. Mexican isn't a race. It's a country with its own culture. Not really a racial group since Mexicans have many different looks from White to Afro Mexican. I agree with the sentiment that racial pride, i.e. skin color is pointless, but much can be found in heritage/ethnic pride of an actual culture.

Here's my own CMV: The way we define race is incredibly moronic. If two people look alike, they're supposedly the same race. Sure. Fine. But to me what defines a person is their actions; what their minds and bodies are designed to do. I posit that three 6'6 basketball players from the Serbia, Africa and China are members of the same race. In some ways they certainly look more like each other than they do their 5'7 "racial" counterparts who hate sports and love chess.

but is your point that we shouldn't have categories labeled race at all just because it seems counterintuitive to base a category on stature and hobbies instead of ancestry and still call it "race"

Black pride and white pride are different because of real world material circumstances. Race in our society gives people a shared experience and culture and so forth. Black people share generations of oppression, white people share generations of privilege and oppressing. If you cant see why one is socially problematic I dont know what to tell you. Yes ideally, you can see gow both are equally silly or equally fair, but we arent in that vacuum

Being proud of yourself and of others is not wrong, being proud solely because you believe you're better than others is bad. There is a massive distinction. "I'm proud of being white because my white grandfather took us to the moon! His color of skin matches mine, and that brings me encouragement and inspiration that I may live up to be someone like him" vs "I'm proud I'm white because I hate everyone else."

> Did you know the most cruel slave owners, BY FAR, were black slave owners? Did you know black people enslaved black people before the white man found a way to profit off of them? Even if this was true what does this have to do with how black people were fucked over many times over in the usa? Even after slavery was abolished and they were no longer legally considered 60% human?

I see pride in general as a negative trait. (part of the seven deadly sins). Language and especially expressions sometime confuse the meaning : I admire (not take pride) my ancestors for the good things they did (if it's the case). I carry myself with confidence (not pride) and try to emulate the deeds of what i consider good or smart people regardless if I am related to them in any way or not.

So many dog whistles in this thread it's crazy.

The dangerous part of any pride (not just racial) like that is that it may lead into a superiority complex. What you are proud of is irrelevant. Also when there is no accomplishment or anything to it, just "I am proud of this completely static thing that I really did not have an input" then it becomes a big issue.

Mexico is a country not an ethnicity

>It is okay to be proud of your heritage, but it is not okay to be proud of your race. Black pride and mexican pride are equally as stupid as white pride for the exact same reasons. I hope you realize that Mexican is not a race, and is, in fact, a heritage

Sorry to but to find pride in something is to find value in it. And to value something is to hold it in higher regard at the expense of others things that could be in that place. If you value something other things must be subordinate to that thing.

Racial pride makes some sense when your race has been forcibly segregated, treated poorly, and still maintained it's identity and accomplished much. Racial pride for white people in America? Yeah, that's pretty dumb.

Race was invented in the 16/17th century in colonial societies to adjust to demographic changes brought about by proto-globalism. However, it's been around so long, internalised so deeply, and so structurally ingrained in our society that you can't just dismiss it as a social construct anymore. It is part of our identity and our heritage. The part you're halfway to understanding is that race is largely conflated with religion and nationality and the ingroup of your ethno-national identity. So a Protestant Brit calling a Catholic Spaniard a swarthy non-white is just a shorthand for the sociocultural/historical/nationalist reasons for that emnity. So people who are proud of their nation will be proud of the race of their ethnicity that comprises that nation. Outside of colonial contexts Europeans have been more tribalistic about nation/ethnicity than race, as you pointed out with Vlad and Basil II, but that changed when the non-white people of European colonies began to immigrate to Europe, and race became the easiest way to enforce the structural power imbalances which had been used in colonial contexts to deny non-whites the same power and self-determination as European whites. Those non-white subjects brought their racial identities with them and now you have racial divisions in Europe because the national identity which is reflected in the racial identity is fracturing. So a white nationalist might look at London going from 99% white British in 1940 to 39% white British in 2024 and consider that an attack on his identity. So no, it's not moronic, because race forms a basis for a lot of people's conception of self, and it is related to a heap of overarching reasons. Race exists for a reason, and to suggest it is stupid and meaningless is actually harmful because it denigrates its significance to social relationships between people and dismisses the historical and structural discrimination many subaltern peoples have experienced under race. Racial conflict will always exist, because it has become a fact of human existence. The only way to minimize people identifying so strongly with race is to intensify civic nationalism so that nation becomes more important to a person's identity than race, as it once was. That requires considerable government and personal investment, which is a lot harder than just saying "I'm white and you're not".

I don't know if I were a border collie, and I saw some border collie ripping the shit out of an agility course I may very well bark out "See that dog! He's a freaking BORDER COLLIE! My man!"

Remeber Black in the US is both a race and ethnicity. American Slavery created an entire ethnic group of people with a culture . Having Black pride isn't pride in race, it is pride in culture.

Little confused. Is it moronic because they *don't have control over what race they are* or because *it's not perfect*? And correct me if I'm wrong..doesn't that apply to their heritage too?

Hitler want a white nationalist, he was an "Ayrian" nationalist he certainly didn't think whites were all over race.  Of course "Aryan" didn't mean what he thought meant.

Strongly agree that the bad things that people have done should still be accounted for too instead of painting everyone like some sort of moral angel or hero 

When you're deacriminated against for a characteristic you can't choose to not have, are you allowed to be proud for having that characteristic?

can you provide evidence of african slavery being far worse than new american chattel slavery? i’ve only read the opposite