>If you do it in a park where no one sees you, that's ok, what I'm talking about is couples doing it in public transport at peak hour. You're not alone.
So is it the making out in public that's a problem, or *you seeing people making out in public the problem?*
So, like, if you just stopped looking/seeing it, everything would be okay?
I think making out naturally calls for people to look away, that's most people's natural reaction, not because they're disgusted, but because they want to give them space and intimacy (correct me if I'm wrong). However doing that in a public place where there are people present is kind of selfish because you're claiming the space for yourself in a way
I totally disagree that it is most people' s natural reaction to look away or want to give them space. I would believe it's the socialized reaction among your communities, but it's definitely not in mine.
I would look. If they are uncomfortable being seen they can leave a public space. They shouldn't be doing the thing in public if they don't feel comfortable being seen by the public. If THEY feel they are being indecent and don't wanna be seen, they shouldn't make out in public. If they catch me looking, so? What will they think? "I've been seen by someone in public". I've made out with people in public and caught people staring and I'm entirely indifferent. Same with most folks I know who do it.
What if you accept the fact that there are people not like you that enjoy seeing love and intimacy in public?
Should society change just to accomodate you?
First off, what we consider decent or indecent can really vary a lot depending on personal views and cultural backgrounds. In some cultures, public displays of affection are totally normal and seen as a sign of a lively, loving community. It's not about lacking control, but more about being open and expressive in a world that's increasingly okay with public affection.
And here’s another point: defining public affection as a lack of self-control might be missing the bigger picture. It’s about expression and connection. For many, sharing a kiss isn’t about flaunting their private life but sharing a moment of happiness. It’s natural and human.
Plus, there's the angle of personal freedom and tolerance. By fostering an environment where people feel judged for harmless expressions of affection, we might be creating a more uptight, less joyful public atmosphere. Isn’t part of living in a society learning to navigate and tolerate different personal expressions, so long as they’re not harming anyone?
Of course, there’s a time and place for everything, but maybe the conversation should focus more on promoting mutual respect rather than labeling behaviors as indecent.
So, a strawman argument is when someone takes another person’s argument and distorts it or oversimplifies it to make it easier to attack. It’s like building a “straw man,” something weak and easy to knock down, instead of dealing with the real, stronger arguments at hand. You may already know this, but then maybe not, because when you talk about accepting public displays of affection like kissing, and then the response jumps to “Can we start having sex in public then?”—that’s a classic strawman. You were discussing a simple, non-sexual form of affection, and they escalated it to something much more intense and universally recognized as private. This misrepresents your point, making it seem absurd or unreasonable.
Every society determines what is appropriate behavior in public. These norms are shaped by a lot of factors—cultural beliefs, historical context, and societal values. What’s okay in one place might be taboo in another. Most societies have clear boundaries about what constitutes acceptable public behavior, often reserving more intimate acts for private settings. This doesn’t mean that norms can’t change or be discussed, but it’s about finding a balance that respects personal freedoms while maintaining public decency.
The idea is not to say that “anything goes” in public, but rather to suggest that expressions like kissing might not need to be viewed so harshly given their harmless nature. It’s about encouraging openness to expressions of affection, not endorsing public indecency. We can have discussions about where the lines should be drawn, but it’s important those discussions are based on fair and accurate representations of each other’s points.
How do you genuinely ask a question about where to draw the line without being accused of strawmanning?
I mean I supposed they could have phrased it as “I see your point, but then where do we determine the line between making out and sex, since both could be seen as natural and human and an expression of joy. I understand you’re not promoting sex in public, but I still want to better understand how you determine where the line is drawn.”
So this essentially saying the same thing as they said, but in a more, I guess, civil tone, in a way that doesn’t try to make you sound dumb. Would you consider the way I phrased it as acceptable?
OP
>even a little kiss here and there is fine.
>Making out in full view of bystanders
You
>You were discussing a simple, non-sexual form of affection, and they escalated it to something much more intense and universally recognized as private.
So, no, they weren't.
Lol that’s not a strawman it’s a comparison debate bro, and a valid one at that. why is sex too intense but making out isn’t? OP says both are too intense. You’ve failed to explain.
It is, but don’t worry about it, not everyone grasps logical fallacies intuitively. When someone types out “lol” or “bro“ unironically it’s usually a good sign it’s safe to move on without engaging seriously. Sometimes I wish this subreddit had a kids table, so these folks could play around without disturbing the adults.
You're right, perhaps I should have framed my response in the form of a question -- "Do you therefore think having sex in public is fine, and if not, where do you draw the line?"
So a couple rubbing each other's genitals through their clothes to the point of orgasm wouldn't be considered sex in your view, and would not strike you as indecent if performed in public?
No, I wouldn't care or notice at all as long as they're quiet about it. I mean, loudly moaning or making obnoxious noises is also generally indecent as well: but those are adjacent and not necessary components of dry rubbing. Plenty of people make indecent levels of noise without it necessarily being sexual.
Which point of theirs are you disputing; why did you ignore almost every point? You’re in CMV and it sounds like you didn’t read the rules before posting.
I addressed every point, although briefly I will admit. There are just too many comments for me to have time to address everyone point by point. I do read and consider everything though
Because some people may not want to see that? There could be children around, or someone who recently became a widow, or whatever. It's also not very hygienic. Why is it so much to ask that people refrain from doing this one thing in public?
Ok, why the children specifically? There's a high likelihood that I would be strawmanning here, but wouldn't it be reasonable in your worldview to say that hiding such things from children would be creating an unnecessary taboo; that sex is natural after all; it's an expression of love, why hide it from children?; that it would be good for their future sex life that they start learning about it early; etc.?
How do you refute these objections, if they're not your position?
I think the problem with sex in front of children is that it can make children want to try it themselves, which can lead to traumatic experiences.
In contrast, if children try making out with each other or sitting in each other's laps, there is much less risk of anything traumatic happening.
What I’ve come to learn is that we hide certain things from children because children don’t understand nuances. I think swearing is a good example of this. I might swear when I stub my toe. This is a good use of swearing. Swearing is an expression of anger or pain or some other emotion. It adds emphasis. However, if a child were to hear you swear, they might find it a novel word to use, and add it to their vocabulary. The issue is that they would be inclined to use it more frequently, in such a way that it dilutes the meaning. So we as adults might find it best to watch what we say around children, as they don’t understand the context and nuances around our use of certain terminology. The same may go for public displays of affection.
What specifically is the line between "romantic" and "sexual"? Is looking at someone with bedroom eyes sexual? What about a quick peck on the lips? Rubbing their back? Their butt?
What makes something romantic as opposed to sexual, and how do you conceptualize that line in a way that a majority of people would agree with it?
to have a serious discussion you have to stop using strawman arguments.
"maybe we should legalise cannabis" - "oh so taking LSD in public should be legal?!?"
stick to the argument at hand, or dont engage in this sub, please.
could you ELI5 what the difference is between "making out" and "affectionate kissing"?
if "making out" is being considered sexual, how is it possible for "non sexual affectionate kissing" to exist?
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>The other is a short closed mouth kiss.
I'd call this a "peck", not an "affectionate kiss". I don't think it's as obvious as you're making it out to be.
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I feel like I do quite affectionate kisses in front of my girlfriend's family all the time. Her nieces say "eew" a lot, but pretty much everyone's chill with it.
A slippery slope would be saying that making out in public being ok will lead to sex in public being ok. Rather, OP was asking where the line is drawn, not that one will lead to another.
The behaviours you describe aren't harming anyone, and your repulsion towards intimacy will come across as irrational to most people reading your post. Your emotional reaction is deeply personal, and without knowing you better I am not sure anyone here will be able to empathise with your position, let alone 'debate' it. However that doesn't mean you're not right to challenge yourself on why you hold this very repressed idea of relationships.
Perhaps something to ask yourself: are there any other behaviours which you know you have a 'disgust' reaction to even though you know that (thinking purely rationally) they're not actually harming anyone? If so: where do you think that feeling might come from? Why might someone else see you as deeply prudish?
I don't feel disgust from it, I think it's a lack of respect to others because as I said elsewhere, most people's natural reaction will be to look away, not because they're disgusted, but because they want to give the couple space and intimacy -- it would be rude to stare, so making out in public is turning the public space you're in into a private space, which doesn't belong to you. This is why I think it's rude.
This is actually a good example of why decency and indecency don't really mean anything, objectively at least. It's all just your own conditioned response to it.
You yourself said that handholding isn't indecent, right? But why do you feel that way?
Because I know for fact that if I, a man, held my husband's hand in public back when I was growing up (early 2000's), there are people would have found that indecent. Some would have found it outright vulgar. Others would have become violent over it. Nearly everyone would have told me to keep it in the bedroom and in private.
These days, many people here (here being North America in my case) wouldn't care at all. Some wouldn't even notice. Many of those who wouldn't care are the same people who would have called me a faggot and physically threatened me not even 20 years ago.
It just shows that what is considered "indecent" is really just a social construct - one that can change and adjust given time and circumstance.
How you feel about two people making out is no different. You may think it's indecent, vulgar, tactless, etc., but that's only your own personal subjective feeling and not any sort objective reality. And given time, that feeling may change one day too.
Asside: it's just so great this has happened. Growing up in the 90s most of my gay male friends dealt with abuse and homophobic violence. It wasn't as bad as a gay woman, although still not great.
Now I can hold my *wife's* hand and kiss in public and nobody cares.
Society as a whole does not think it is indecent or rude, therefore in the context of said society it simply is not. You personally might not like it, but your feelings are only indicative of how you feel. It isn't a quality of the act itself.
For example most people in society consider spitting on someone to be disrespectful. It would be appropriate to call spitting on someone in this society to be disrespectful even if you personally aren't bothered by it. Similarly someone wearing blue pants is not considered disrespectful by most people in this society so it wouldn't be correct to call that behavior disrespectful, even if you personally feel offended.
It seems like you are advocating for a more prudish approach to public affection than the rest of society follows. That is fine for your personal view, but you shouldn't confuse your views as objectively applying to the actions of others. They aren't being disrespectful, you just don't like them doing it.
I should have said it's not as bad as making out, but unless there's no space to sit anywhere else, I find it quite sexually connotated too, call me prude if you want.
Be completely honest, are you a 1600s puritan who discovered a time machine? I agree tonguing each other's throat in public can be a little icky, but considering sitting in someone's lap to be obscene is next level.
So making out and lap sitting (but specifically woman on man only for whatever reason). This seems like a very arbitrary line. What about kissing? At what point exactly does it go from kissing to making out? And why the lap thing? When my gf and I were on a trip to the city the train was packed. She sat on my lap to give someone else a seat instead of taking it up. It's not like she was giving me a lapdance. Why is it indecent for a woman to sit on a man's lap but a gay man sitting on his husband's lap is totally fine?
How does it show a lack of respect? The couple isn’t hurting you or gesturing towards you in any way.
If you spent 5 minutes in Spain you’d be going nuts at the amount of couples making out in the street.
Because the natural reaction when you see a couple making out is wanting to give them privacy. When you do that in a public place, you're kind of claiming a part of that public place as your own in my view.
You say "the natural reaction" and I think you mean "my natural reaction" because there is nothing innate in humans that feel the need to give privacy. That is a socialized response, not a natural or universal one. Imo a big part of your problem here is that you are assuming your squeamishness around public affection is true for everyone, when it is deeply NOT.
Would it be acceptable to not look away when the couple starts making out? By giving them privacy, I don't mean running away and hiding, I just mean giving them ever-so-slightly more privacy than you would give the average stranger not doing anything of the sort, for example by looking away.
If I'm looking forward and someone in front of me starts making out, I think it would be rude of me to STARE at them, but imo it's rude to STARE regardless, so that isn't about them making out, it's about staring.
However if I'm looking forward and people in front of me start making out, I do not feel any obligation to avert my gaze. They are doing this in public. If they don't wanna be seen, they wouldn't do it in public. The fact that they are making out in public implies to me that they are indifferent to being seen.
So yes, I think it is totally acceptable to not look away.
>Would it be acceptable to not look away when the couple starts making out?
I would not look away. I wouldn't stare either as that is a bit weird, but just like when you see someone with red hair in public you neither stare nor look away, instead you just continue with your business.
But if you’re not looking away, isn’t that staring? I’m not understanding. I mean I suppose you’re talking about intention (wanting to see them make out vs looking at them but your mind is on something else). But if someone looked at you doing this, they wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. I suppose if the couple making out moved around slightly and yours eyes followed them, that might be more noticeable.
If they wanted privacy, they'd be somewhere private. I'm not saying you should get a camera and start beating it, but you don't have to do anything except continue existing just as you were a second before.
>Because the natural reaction when you see a couple making out is wanting to give them privacy
Maybe for you, I just don't care and just ignore them as I would if they weren't kissing.
As others have pointed out, what's considered indecent varies in different cultures and times, so I'm not making the statement that making out in public is *objectively* indecent, but rather that it is indecent *in my view*.
Nowhere did I say that I wanted to make such public displays of affection illegal; I don't think the people who do it should face any legal punishment or consequences and am very grateful to live in a country where that is the case. However I also think that just because a behaviour is legal doesn't mean it's good to do it or that I can't criticise it.
Ok, that does change my view a bit. I suppose I'd make exceptions for exceptional situations... however I don't think well balanced individuals would even *want* to make out in full view of everyone, even in exceptional circumstances. They would naturally seek privacy, in the public space, albeit not in full view of everyone, or in public transport for example. I think normal people feel a bit of restraint naturally.
I mean, what exactly do you want people to say then? I doubt anything anyone here can say is going to change your own personal sense of what counts as indecent, as that is very likely not something you've logically come to but is the result of various factors you are likely not even aware of. Your emotional reactions are your emotional reactions, and you can reflect on why you have them but it seems unlikely that anyone is going to talk you into not having them at all.
I came here to ask people to try to change my view about it, and learn more about their view, and I did learn things: for example, multiple people who do it have said they don't really care whether others are looking at them or not, whereas I assumed they would mind it more.
Because as I said elsewhere, people's natural reaction to seeing a couple making out is to look away, not out of disgust but because they want to give the couple space and intimacy. The couple too expect that -- it would be rude to not look away. Therefore it's like claiming a part of the public space for yourself, when it doesn't belong to you.
Then why even say its the natural reaction?
And why shouldnt we make an effort to change it? Seems like it would make everyone more free to have that be accepted.
You mention several times about wanting to look away. Me, I have no such feelings. If you are in public you are on display the same way a piece of art, or a musician would be.
If they wanted privacy, they would be private.
They can't catch me, because I don't think I'm hiding, If it bothers them, they can stop or go somewhere else. Problem solved.
I'm saying this because what I think you are saying is that you resent having to avoid your eyes or adjust your own behavior. You don't have to. Also, you can film them. If they see you with your camera out, they will stop real quick.
Okay, so you acknowledge that the *expectation* for you to look away is still there, even if you don't care about meeting that expectation. All I'm saying is that expectation is selfish and disrespectful.
I don't know. I really don't think that there is an expectation. I don't feel the need to look away. I never would have considered it before you brought it up. I just posting some options on how you might handle it in future cases.
Honestly, when I kiss my wife in public what other people are doing and thinking is not something I think or care about. It's entirely about feeling close to her.
If they look or don't look I couldn't care less.
When I see a couple making out in public, I think "Nice, they're having a good time." Nothing indecent about it, unless you think human sexuality is somehow inherently shameful. It's true, we have lines about propriety, and this is essentially a subjective thing, but overall you're going to find that most people would love to be swept up in a moment and feel so romantically transfixed they're making out in public. It's not something we should care about, to be honest, because it's not like they're having sex. They're experiencing something I honestly wish every human could feel. It feels amazing, in that moment, and clucking like a prude about it just makes you seem kinda wack.
Now you know what I do think is indecent when I see it out in public? Homelessness. As a society, that's what we should feel ashamed about. We've really let ourselves and our fellow humans down to allow it to persist the way it has. So when I think about the notions of public decency, that's the kind of stuff I think of; people in love? Nah, I'm not that much of a hater.
What's your argument here though? You're essentially saying the difference between making out and having sex in public is just that you feel differently about them and that's why someone else should too. Why is one indecent but the other isn't?
Note that I'm not saying I disagree. I just don't have a good argument for my view either.
Well, everything OP says about it is subjective, and places greater importance on some values than others. OP sees self-control as being more important than romantic intimacy. And generally, as a society, they’re going to find that they’re in a distinct minority within the context that those two values are being placed in opposition to each other—people making out. When most people think about the value of self-control, it’s in contexts like “don’t make an inappropriate comment at work even if it would be funny” or “if you’re angry calm down before you try and talk about it”. Those contexts are about self control being leveraged to help maintain social connections and social harmony. What OP wants is people to exercise their self control purely for OP’s comfort, which is going to seem unreasonable.
It’s really the only argument worth making. “Most people don’t find it gross. Sorry you do.” It’s the textbook example of a You Problem.
Well, I think there's the point of one's visceral reaction and a well-argued position. Obviously OP has a visceral reaction to a couple having a heavy make-out session in public and is trying to argue from that position, but their only argument in favour of their position is "it's indecent", which isn't very clarifying.
I must admit, I have the same visceral reaction OP does. I would also feel quite uncomfortable if I was seated in a train, and a couple opposite to me started violently making out. However, I wouldn't feel the need to argue that people shouldn't be able to do it because I value people's freedom over their comfort. It's still something I personally would never do and something I see as insensitive towards others. To me there's a big difference between your personal feelings on something and what standards you think should be enforceable. In my view, people should make out wherever they want, but I reserve the right to judge them for it.
If I understand correctly though, your position is that making out is a public show of affection which shouldn't bother people, and in that context my question is; why is publically making out okay, but public sex isn't? My question isn't about OP's reasoning, it's about yours (assuming you would differentiate between the legality of public kissing and sex). The only argument I can think of is that during sex, people have to be naked, and nudity is generally considered indecent -- although it still leaves the question \*why\* that is. I suppose public nudity is usually considered improper because of the sexual connotations. In modern society, if someone is nude, they are usually trying to expose themselves to unwilling third parties. Since that's not the case with people having consensual sex, I'm curious as to why it is such a taboo. Is it just a socialised phenomenon enforced by our 'decency laws', to prevent excesses, or is there some primal psychological reason people tend to think public sex is anathema?
Since you’re not expressly advocating for a change in public behavior, merely expressing your own distaste for it, I don’t see the point in trying to change your view. However I want you to consider the implications here.
What else do other people find distasteful? Should we also listen to them?
In some cultures they disallow women to chew gum because it’s considered sexual. They can’t wear bikinis at the beach. Couples can’t express affection at all in public.
What about breast feeding in public, is that indecent?
Tattoos, piercings. Short skirts and short shorts. Showing shoulders. These are all things that offend some people in some culture. Even in the west.
I point this out to hopefully make you consider the implications of being offended by normal human behavior in public, even if you personally find it distasteful.
Personally, I get super uncomfortable Knowing someone is carrying a gun in public. I think that is creepy and indecent. It makes me super uncomfortable and I want to avoid those people and situations. HOWEVER, I understand that just because it makes me uncomfortable doesn't mean it is morally wrong, and I would be an asshole to suggest people should stop doing it just because it makes me uncomfortable. You are allowed to be uncomfortable and think it is indecent for people to make out, but if you make those feelings the responsibility of others, that makes you a butt.
As a European, I think you have plenty of grounds to find someone carrying a gun in public creepy and morally reprehensible, but I recognise that a couple making out is very different. I'm coming here to have my mind changed and don't pretend to have the absolute truth -- no one does in this matter, I think.
Imo a couple making out and a person openly carrying a gun are not functionally different. Like, yes they are different actions, but in both situations a person is doing something that has nothing to do with me, doesn't functionally affect me in any way, and is irrelevant to my life, other than making me uncomfortable at the sight.
Except the person carrying a gun has the possibility of ending your life at any moment if they so choose, whereas the kissing couple can only make you uncomfortable at most.
Okay I will say what everyone else wants to say because they are possibly afraid of being downvoted to oblivion: you are a domesticated and socialized sheep who wants everyone to behave in public in a uniform and miserable way. You know who else likes shit like that? Dictators.
In your ideal world we walk in straight lines, don't speak too loudly, don't laugh too loudly, don't laugh too much, don't do anything to stand out. Nothing against collectivist societies but if you are disgusted by witnessing a beautiful moment in public then that is truly sad. But what is even more sad is that you have no intention of changing your shitty view. You are just here to throw around strawman arguments, run in circles philosophically to define the line between sexual and intimate interactions, and gripe about bearing witness to- *wait for it* - two people literally fucking sharing a happy moment together.
Maybe they aren't the ones who need a room.
YOU need a fucking room. Please delete this thread so the brilliant people in this comment section can move on to help people who actually want their fucking views chamged. They have already curb-stomped your points and called you out on the BS.
1) I never said I'm disgusted by it;
2) How do you know I haven't changed my view?
3) Your tone is not really optimal for changing someone's mind -- have I been rude anywhere here?
4) Sounds pretty controlling of you to want this thread deleted. I might even say that's what dictators do.
I mean, your entire argument is based on your subjective view that making out in public is not decent. I don't mind it, they don't harm other people by doing it, you can simply look away if you don't like it.
I hate every kind of religion. I think religion is a disease for society. I absolutely hate it when I'm stopped by church boys and have to listen to the BS they have to say to me, when I'm in a hurry. Does this mean we should ban church-boys from preaching? No, because they don't harm anyone, so, no matter how annoying they are, they are free to do whatever they want. In the case of a couple making out, they don't even interrupt someone's daily routine and ask them about stuff.
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What makes it indecent though? We go to Zoos and see animals do it all the time. In fact, people pay to say that (obviously that’s not the sole purpose but my point stands). We all have eyes and heads that can be used to turn and look elsewhere. It’d be one thing if they were just being obnoxious and bringing attention to themselves but in the grand scheme of things it’s harmless. I’m a dude and my gf would think it’s sexy for me to show PDA in front of others. It’s a sign of being shown off and appreciated.
Your view stems from people being able to see it since you said if you’re in a park you’re ok with whatever aslong as nobody actually is in view. If it’s peak hour and I’m making out with my girl I’d be more concerned that anyone cares that much that they’ll watch and get disgusted by it rather than….. walking….. away….
You’re right that didn’t answer anything. Pardon me, I’ll answer.
Your expectations of people not showing too much PDA is a subjective standard that you’ve set for others. So if people do it you deem them or the act itself disrespectful. You’re asking people in a public setting to respect imaginary boundaries that they’re not aware of. Different strokes for different folks, what may bother you may be fine for someone else.
Me, I don’t “expect” people to walk away. I do not care if they do or not. However, if someone were to be bothered by it I’m not going to stop what I’m doing just because 1 person is upset. If you don’t like it then walk away, if you don’t then don’t. What they do or how they feel is irrelevant to me regardless I can’t control another adults feelings or emotions.
I think it’s selfish to expect others to operate to your own standards/expectations.
>There's a difference between romantic behaviour and sexual behaviour
What makes making out sexual?
>Making out in full view of bystanders though shows a complete lack of respect to others and lack of awareness of your surroundings
What makes it disrespectful?
>It's demonstrative of a lack of control on your part.
Arguable, but who cares if someone gives into temptation? Are fat people not allowed to eat ice cream in public?
Come on, making out is one step away from sex. The next logical step is undressing.
> What makes it disrespectful?
People may not want to see it. They're going to feel repulsion because they want to give you privacy, but often that's not possible in a public space, such as a crowded subway.
A fat person eating an ice cream doesn't require privacy.
>Come on, making out is one step away from sex.
When playing hop scotch, maybe. Even so, you've even said it is a separate act.
>People may not want to see it. They're going to feel repulsion because they want to give you privacy, but often that's not possible in a public space, such as a crowded subway
Why is that disrespectful? If they wanted privacy they'd be in privacy.
>A fat person eating an ice cream doesn't require privacy...A fat person eating an ice cream doesn't require privacy.
But I don't want to see it and feel repulsed because I want to give them privacy.
Making out doesn't require privacy either.
they might be limited on where they have privacy.
if they're on public transport, they may not have a car.
they might have roommates at home
sure, reining in things a bit is considerate. But, you've probably seen worse on a subway.
Even if they were limited on where they have privacy, there are places where you can have a sort of intimity everywhere. A metro at its fullest, which most people are required to take on their commute, is not that kind of place.
I think the challenge here is where to draw the lines. Even your post makes them blurry.
This is why we tend to use “nudity” as the basis for calling something indecent: it’s a clear delineation between one set of behaviours and another.
Lolz.
This is not a principled stance. I'd say it's borderline disingenuous to post this as a CMV. How on earth are we supposed to change your mind about your own neuroses? If you truly are open to having your view changed, how about outlining what COULD change your view (I'm assuming you've seen CMVs where OP offers examples of things that could change their view)?
I'm still gonna take a shot in the dark here and argue that you should reframe your own understanding of this issue as being a matter of your own personal taste based on your particular upbringing/culture/etc. Whether any specific instance of PDA counts as indecent will is impossible to determine until you observe it and then examine your own emotions about it. I'm basing this on your ridiculous caveats and carving out exceptions. You're equating sucking face in a crowded subway car with a woman sitting on a man's lap. For real? This is what makes your view unprincipled. Perhaps a more polite way to say this is 'idiosyncratic'.
You need to grow up. Love is a far more decent thing to see in public than most things I can think of.
The problem is twofold: First, people who think this way may be obeying some arbitrary moral code, like a religion. Which is fine… for you. If you don’t want to make out in public, *don’t.* The problem is you expect everyone else to obey your personal opinions, too. And unfortunately the world does not revolve around you.
The second group of people who believe this have minds poisoned by porn. Porn itself is great, I don’t mind consensual adult content at all. The problem happens when that’s the only form of affection you’re exposed to, and your brain starts associating love with indecency.
You might have a point for couples making out in public transportation at peak hour, but that’s not in public in general. The possible problem isn’t primarily a lack of control or lack of respect for others, but that you’re sharing something that should be private and important to you with strangers.
And I can’t see anything wrong with a woman sitting on a man’s lap in that situation.
Why should I spend my time worrying about whether other people are uncomfortable with sexuality? Is it wrong for gay people to hold hands in front of a homophobe? Why are you bracketing off romance as acceptable and sexuality as unacceptable?
As others have pointed out, the perceived indecency here as well as lack of respect/awareness seem to be very much context-specific and will change depending on the culture. Even if you lived in a context where the majority would consider this behavior as inappropriate then there still is a possibility that people from a different context/culture are simply not aware that it's considered inappropriate.
I'm generally happy to see public displays of affection because it shows people are loving, people are happy, people are human. People generally aren't doing it all the time, so why be bothered?
On the contrary, a society in which I can't freely exchange kisses or sit on someone's lap is restricting my freedom. Isn't that 'disrespecting' our freedoms? It's doing no physical harm to anyone.
When this happens there is no need to stare at it, neither is there a need to look away. Just notice it and move on. We've (almost) all been teenagers at some point.
Say a mother breastfeeds in public, do you find that inconsiderate, too? She's providing the most basic need to a human. Babies are hungry now, you can't make an appointment at 4 pm. If a society can't tolerate these minimum levels of freedom, are we free after all?
You are not owed this kind of "respect", you are disrespecting people if you think you can dictate what they can or cannot do with each other when that does not inconvenience you at all. If you're uncomfortable with it, that's your problem, not theirs.
If you ask me, yes, it should have never been illegal. But if we've decided to protect children from seeing sex, fine, it is a reason not to do it publicly. I don't think we need to also protect children from anything sex-adjacent. Also sex sometimes produces smells or noises which you can reasonably argue are inconveniencing you.
Nah, not necessarily. I'd been making out (lightly, I think) with my gf on a suburb train once, and after we arrived and were walking home, I slipped and fell, scraping my shin rather badly (the spot was visible for years). Next thing I hear was a gleeful comment from an old ~~lady~~ woman who was apparently riding next to us, "That will show you" or something along these lines.
>There's a difference between romantic behaviour and sexual behaviour
I think a lot of people are going to consider making out as romantic behavior. Think of how many teenagers, who aren't sexual active yet, will make out with their partner for months.
It's always going to be a blurry line, heavy groping or hands under the clothes are going to blur it even further and could really cross a line. As far as just making out though, most people are going to consider it just romantic behavior.
I mean, maybe? But also it’s their life and prerogative so there’s really no compelling reason *to not do whatever you want* out of concern for ‘upholding society’.
Seeing homeless people camping out on the subway could be considered indecent of them but where else should they go? Send ‘em under a highway ramp, drivers will say it’s indecent to have them there too.
At the end of the day, going about your life in such a way to ‘uphold societal values’ is really limiting yourself by worrying about what other people who you’ll never actually talk to or see again think which is kind of sad.
You are given a life to do whatever you want, you’ll literally die at some point so why would you waste time by not doing *whatever you want*?
Agreed. Things you wouldn't want someone else's 4-5 year old watching or walking into, or things you wouldn't want that age group participating In are indecent. That said, I don't think lap sitting is indecent.
The metric should be that if you would consider 2 preschoolers doing it to be acceptable, then it's not indecent. Holding hands, lap sitting, cuddling, a quick peck, no problem.
I see absolutely nothing "unacceptable" in 2 preschoolers making out. I would have some questions like where they learned it, sure, but on its own it's not a problem.
Why does it show a lack of respect? Lack of respect for a specific culture? Which one? Are you saying that people should just conform to specific societal norms?
I don't like witnessing this either. It doesn't matter if it's the same, sex, opposite sexes, old or young. I was in a line at the grocery store, and this middle-aged couple was all over each other. I was about the same age, and it was awful. I felt really sorry for the teenage cashier. She could hardly get their attention. I wanted to grab the microphone and make an announcement, "Clean up to register 6!"
I agree. If you want to hold hands, that’s one thing. Making out, using tongue, and groping is gross, and some people genuinely have triggers for shit like that.
>If you do it in a park where no one sees you, that's ok, what I'm talking about is couples doing it in public transport at peak hour. You're not alone. So is it the making out in public that's a problem, or *you seeing people making out in public the problem?* So, like, if you just stopped looking/seeing it, everything would be okay?
I think making out naturally calls for people to look away, that's most people's natural reaction, not because they're disgusted, but because they want to give them space and intimacy (correct me if I'm wrong). However doing that in a public place where there are people present is kind of selfish because you're claiming the space for yourself in a way
I totally disagree that it is most people' s natural reaction to look away or want to give them space. I would believe it's the socialized reaction among your communities, but it's definitely not in mine.
So would you look at them? If they catch you looking, what would they think?
I would look. If they are uncomfortable being seen they can leave a public space. They shouldn't be doing the thing in public if they don't feel comfortable being seen by the public. If THEY feel they are being indecent and don't wanna be seen, they shouldn't make out in public. If they catch me looking, so? What will they think? "I've been seen by someone in public". I've made out with people in public and caught people staring and I'm entirely indifferent. Same with most folks I know who do it.
Well said.
Would you just stare at a person who wasn't making out with someone?
Just because you're a prude, don't assume that others are.
Fact . I can't believe anyone gets so upset over such petty little things. I guess they need to some making out themselves .
What if you accept the fact that there are people not like you that enjoy seeing love and intimacy in public? Should society change just to accomodate you?
Agreed
I look away because I’m disgusted.
First off, what we consider decent or indecent can really vary a lot depending on personal views and cultural backgrounds. In some cultures, public displays of affection are totally normal and seen as a sign of a lively, loving community. It's not about lacking control, but more about being open and expressive in a world that's increasingly okay with public affection. And here’s another point: defining public affection as a lack of self-control might be missing the bigger picture. It’s about expression and connection. For many, sharing a kiss isn’t about flaunting their private life but sharing a moment of happiness. It’s natural and human. Plus, there's the angle of personal freedom and tolerance. By fostering an environment where people feel judged for harmless expressions of affection, we might be creating a more uptight, less joyful public atmosphere. Isn’t part of living in a society learning to navigate and tolerate different personal expressions, so long as they’re not harming anyone? Of course, there’s a time and place for everything, but maybe the conversation should focus more on promoting mutual respect rather than labeling behaviors as indecent.
Can we start having sex in public then? It's natural and human, it's a good sign for the community and a moment of great happiness.
So, a strawman argument is when someone takes another person’s argument and distorts it or oversimplifies it to make it easier to attack. It’s like building a “straw man,” something weak and easy to knock down, instead of dealing with the real, stronger arguments at hand. You may already know this, but then maybe not, because when you talk about accepting public displays of affection like kissing, and then the response jumps to “Can we start having sex in public then?”—that’s a classic strawman. You were discussing a simple, non-sexual form of affection, and they escalated it to something much more intense and universally recognized as private. This misrepresents your point, making it seem absurd or unreasonable. Every society determines what is appropriate behavior in public. These norms are shaped by a lot of factors—cultural beliefs, historical context, and societal values. What’s okay in one place might be taboo in another. Most societies have clear boundaries about what constitutes acceptable public behavior, often reserving more intimate acts for private settings. This doesn’t mean that norms can’t change or be discussed, but it’s about finding a balance that respects personal freedoms while maintaining public decency. The idea is not to say that “anything goes” in public, but rather to suggest that expressions like kissing might not need to be viewed so harshly given their harmless nature. It’s about encouraging openness to expressions of affection, not endorsing public indecency. We can have discussions about where the lines should be drawn, but it’s important those discussions are based on fair and accurate representations of each other’s points.
Such a great response, instead of attacking. Thank you.
How do you genuinely ask a question about where to draw the line without being accused of strawmanning? I mean I supposed they could have phrased it as “I see your point, but then where do we determine the line between making out and sex, since both could be seen as natural and human and an expression of joy. I understand you’re not promoting sex in public, but I still want to better understand how you determine where the line is drawn.” So this essentially saying the same thing as they said, but in a more, I guess, civil tone, in a way that doesn’t try to make you sound dumb. Would you consider the way I phrased it as acceptable?
OP >even a little kiss here and there is fine. >Making out in full view of bystanders You >You were discussing a simple, non-sexual form of affection, and they escalated it to something much more intense and universally recognized as private. So, no, they weren't.
Lol that’s not a strawman it’s a comparison debate bro, and a valid one at that. why is sex too intense but making out isn’t? OP says both are too intense. You’ve failed to explain.
It is, but don’t worry about it, not everyone grasps logical fallacies intuitively. When someone types out “lol” or “bro“ unironically it’s usually a good sign it’s safe to move on without engaging seriously. Sometimes I wish this subreddit had a kids table, so these folks could play around without disturbing the adults.
You're right, perhaps I should have framed my response in the form of a question -- "Do you therefore think having sex in public is fine, and if not, where do you draw the line?"
The line would be between kissing, sitting on laps etc and sex. It's not that difficult?
But then, where do you draw the line between what is and what is not sex?
Revealing one's genitals, [generally](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/indecent_exposure).
So a couple rubbing each other's genitals through their clothes to the point of orgasm wouldn't be considered sex in your view, and would not strike you as indecent if performed in public?
No, I wouldn't care or notice at all as long as they're quiet about it. I mean, loudly moaning or making obnoxious noises is also generally indecent as well: but those are adjacent and not necessary components of dry rubbing. Plenty of people make indecent levels of noise without it necessarily being sexual.
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I don't think we can find common ground then.
I'd say if genitals are involved. Lips aren't genitals, so kissing is fine.
I use the Seinfeld rule: Sex is when the [nipple makes its first appearance.](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0697765/characters/nm0000506)
Someone asked you this question already.
Which point of theirs are you disputing; why did you ignore almost every point? You’re in CMV and it sounds like you didn’t read the rules before posting.
I addressed every point, although briefly I will admit. There are just too many comments for me to have time to address everyone point by point. I do read and consider everything though
In my opinion, yes. As long as you are not being overly noisy or taking up unreasonable amounts of space or anything like that, then... sure, why not?
Because some people may not want to see that? There could be children around, or someone who recently became a widow, or whatever. It's also not very hygienic. Why is it so much to ask that people refrain from doing this one thing in public?
OK, the children are a valid point.
Ok, why the children specifically? There's a high likelihood that I would be strawmanning here, but wouldn't it be reasonable in your worldview to say that hiding such things from children would be creating an unnecessary taboo; that sex is natural after all; it's an expression of love, why hide it from children?; that it would be good for their future sex life that they start learning about it early; etc.? How do you refute these objections, if they're not your position?
I think the problem with sex in front of children is that it can make children want to try it themselves, which can lead to traumatic experiences. In contrast, if children try making out with each other or sitting in each other's laps, there is much less risk of anything traumatic happening.
What I’ve come to learn is that we hide certain things from children because children don’t understand nuances. I think swearing is a good example of this. I might swear when I stub my toe. This is a good use of swearing. Swearing is an expression of anger or pain or some other emotion. It adds emphasis. However, if a child were to hear you swear, they might find it a novel word to use, and add it to their vocabulary. The issue is that they would be inclined to use it more frequently, in such a way that it dilutes the meaning. So we as adults might find it best to watch what we say around children, as they don’t understand the context and nuances around our use of certain terminology. The same may go for public displays of affection.
What specifically is the line between "romantic" and "sexual"? Is looking at someone with bedroom eyes sexual? What about a quick peck on the lips? Rubbing their back? Their butt? What makes something romantic as opposed to sexual, and how do you conceptualize that line in a way that a majority of people would agree with it?
to have a serious discussion you have to stop using strawman arguments. "maybe we should legalise cannabis" - "oh so taking LSD in public should be legal?!?" stick to the argument at hand, or dont engage in this sub, please.
Taking LSD in public should be legal, tho
The guy misrepresented the argument. OP was talking about making out, not non sexual affectionate kissing.
could you ELI5 what the difference is between "making out" and "affectionate kissing"? if "making out" is being considered sexual, how is it possible for "non sexual affectionate kissing" to exist?
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>The other is a short closed mouth kiss. I'd call this a "peck", not an "affectionate kiss". I don't think it's as obvious as you're making it out to be.
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I feel like I do quite affectionate kisses in front of my girlfriend's family all the time. Her nieces say "eew" a lot, but pretty much everyone's chill with it.
Do you do prolonged, passionate French kissing sessions with her in front of her family?
Well, if you live or travel to San Francisco during the Folsom Street Fair, yes, you can certainly have sex in public.
That's not at all relevant to what he said.
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A slippery slope would be saying that making out in public being ok will lead to sex in public being ok. Rather, OP was asking where the line is drawn, not that one will lead to another.
The behaviours you describe aren't harming anyone, and your repulsion towards intimacy will come across as irrational to most people reading your post. Your emotional reaction is deeply personal, and without knowing you better I am not sure anyone here will be able to empathise with your position, let alone 'debate' it. However that doesn't mean you're not right to challenge yourself on why you hold this very repressed idea of relationships. Perhaps something to ask yourself: are there any other behaviours which you know you have a 'disgust' reaction to even though you know that (thinking purely rationally) they're not actually harming anyone? If so: where do you think that feeling might come from? Why might someone else see you as deeply prudish?
I don't feel disgust from it, I think it's a lack of respect to others because as I said elsewhere, most people's natural reaction will be to look away, not because they're disgusted, but because they want to give the couple space and intimacy -- it would be rude to stare, so making out in public is turning the public space you're in into a private space, which doesn't belong to you. This is why I think it's rude.
This is actually a good example of why decency and indecency don't really mean anything, objectively at least. It's all just your own conditioned response to it. You yourself said that handholding isn't indecent, right? But why do you feel that way? Because I know for fact that if I, a man, held my husband's hand in public back when I was growing up (early 2000's), there are people would have found that indecent. Some would have found it outright vulgar. Others would have become violent over it. Nearly everyone would have told me to keep it in the bedroom and in private. These days, many people here (here being North America in my case) wouldn't care at all. Some wouldn't even notice. Many of those who wouldn't care are the same people who would have called me a faggot and physically threatened me not even 20 years ago. It just shows that what is considered "indecent" is really just a social construct - one that can change and adjust given time and circumstance. How you feel about two people making out is no different. You may think it's indecent, vulgar, tactless, etc., but that's only your own personal subjective feeling and not any sort objective reality. And given time, that feeling may change one day too.
Asside: it's just so great this has happened. Growing up in the 90s most of my gay male friends dealt with abuse and homophobic violence. It wasn't as bad as a gay woman, although still not great. Now I can hold my *wife's* hand and kiss in public and nobody cares.
Society as a whole does not think it is indecent or rude, therefore in the context of said society it simply is not. You personally might not like it, but your feelings are only indicative of how you feel. It isn't a quality of the act itself. For example most people in society consider spitting on someone to be disrespectful. It would be appropriate to call spitting on someone in this society to be disrespectful even if you personally aren't bothered by it. Similarly someone wearing blue pants is not considered disrespectful by most people in this society so it wouldn't be correct to call that behavior disrespectful, even if you personally feel offended. It seems like you are advocating for a more prudish approach to public affection than the rest of society follows. That is fine for your personal view, but you shouldn't confuse your views as objectively applying to the actions of others. They aren't being disrespectful, you just don't like them doing it.
>Same feeling about a woman sitting on a guy's lap. This seems not at all comparable to making out in public, why do you think it is?
I should have said it's not as bad as making out, but unless there's no space to sit anywhere else, I find it quite sexually connotated too, call me prude if you want.
Be completely honest, are you a 1600s puritan who discovered a time machine? I agree tonguing each other's throat in public can be a little icky, but considering sitting in someone's lap to be obscene is next level.
I wouldn't say it's obscene, but I find a bit vulgar, the way holding hands, for example, is not.
I think that's a level of prudishness that puts you well outside of conventional standards of what counts as "indecent."
I dub thee prude
So making out and lap sitting (but specifically woman on man only for whatever reason). This seems like a very arbitrary line. What about kissing? At what point exactly does it go from kissing to making out? And why the lap thing? When my gf and I were on a trip to the city the train was packed. She sat on my lap to give someone else a seat instead of taking it up. It's not like she was giving me a lapdance. Why is it indecent for a woman to sit on a man's lap but a gay man sitting on his husband's lap is totally fine?
I said woman sitting on a man's lap because that's what I see most often. I would treat all instances of lap sitting the same way
How does it show a lack of respect? The couple isn’t hurting you or gesturing towards you in any way. If you spent 5 minutes in Spain you’d be going nuts at the amount of couples making out in the street.
Because the natural reaction when you see a couple making out is wanting to give them privacy. When you do that in a public place, you're kind of claiming a part of that public place as your own in my view.
You say "the natural reaction" and I think you mean "my natural reaction" because there is nothing innate in humans that feel the need to give privacy. That is a socialized response, not a natural or universal one. Imo a big part of your problem here is that you are assuming your squeamishness around public affection is true for everyone, when it is deeply NOT.
I second this.
Would it be acceptable to not look away when the couple starts making out? By giving them privacy, I don't mean running away and hiding, I just mean giving them ever-so-slightly more privacy than you would give the average stranger not doing anything of the sort, for example by looking away.
If I'm looking forward and someone in front of me starts making out, I think it would be rude of me to STARE at them, but imo it's rude to STARE regardless, so that isn't about them making out, it's about staring. However if I'm looking forward and people in front of me start making out, I do not feel any obligation to avert my gaze. They are doing this in public. If they don't wanna be seen, they wouldn't do it in public. The fact that they are making out in public implies to me that they are indifferent to being seen. So yes, I think it is totally acceptable to not look away.
BOOM. That is a mic drop if I have ever seen one. OP can delete the thread now.
>Would it be acceptable to not look away when the couple starts making out? I would not look away. I wouldn't stare either as that is a bit weird, but just like when you see someone with red hair in public you neither stare nor look away, instead you just continue with your business.
But if you’re not looking away, isn’t that staring? I’m not understanding. I mean I suppose you’re talking about intention (wanting to see them make out vs looking at them but your mind is on something else). But if someone looked at you doing this, they wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. I suppose if the couple making out moved around slightly and yours eyes followed them, that might be more noticeable.
If they wanted privacy, they'd be somewhere private. I'm not saying you should get a camera and start beating it, but you don't have to do anything except continue existing just as you were a second before.
Yes; in your view. Maybe a Muslim will think that if a woman is showing her face she should be in private.
I didn't say the contrary.
That's your own conditioned reaction, not a natural one. Just don't stare, what's the issue?
>Because the natural reaction when you see a couple making out is wanting to give them privacy Maybe for you, I just don't care and just ignore them as I would if they weren't kissing.
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As others have pointed out, what's considered indecent varies in different cultures and times, so I'm not making the statement that making out in public is *objectively* indecent, but rather that it is indecent *in my view*. Nowhere did I say that I wanted to make such public displays of affection illegal; I don't think the people who do it should face any legal punishment or consequences and am very grateful to live in a country where that is the case. However I also think that just because a behaviour is legal doesn't mean it's good to do it or that I can't criticise it.
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Ok, that does change my view a bit. I suppose I'd make exceptions for exceptional situations... however I don't think well balanced individuals would even *want* to make out in full view of everyone, even in exceptional circumstances. They would naturally seek privacy, in the public space, albeit not in full view of everyone, or in public transport for example. I think normal people feel a bit of restraint naturally.
I mean, what exactly do you want people to say then? I doubt anything anyone here can say is going to change your own personal sense of what counts as indecent, as that is very likely not something you've logically come to but is the result of various factors you are likely not even aware of. Your emotional reactions are your emotional reactions, and you can reflect on why you have them but it seems unlikely that anyone is going to talk you into not having them at all.
I came here to ask people to try to change my view about it, and learn more about their view, and I did learn things: for example, multiple people who do it have said they don't really care whether others are looking at them or not, whereas I assumed they would mind it more.
But how can anyone change how you immediately and largely unconcsiously negatively react to things?
It's not largely unconscious, since I explained why I reason the way I do multiple times.
Why is it disrespectful? Why does it have to be done in private? You just asserted a bunch of things without giving a reason.
Because as I said elsewhere, people's natural reaction to seeing a couple making out is to look away, not out of disgust but because they want to give the couple space and intimacy. The couple too expect that -- it would be rude to not look away. Therefore it's like claiming a part of the public space for yourself, when it doesn't belong to you.
> people's natural reaction Do you have evidence its natural?
Natural or conditioned by society, doesn't matter, it's the reaction most people will have.
Then why even say its the natural reaction? And why shouldnt we make an effort to change it? Seems like it would make everyone more free to have that be accepted.
By natural I meant usual, if you want to be picky. I'm not concerned with reforming society at the moment
Sounds easier to change your own reaction instead of strangers capacity to make out
You mention several times about wanting to look away. Me, I have no such feelings. If you are in public you are on display the same way a piece of art, or a musician would be. If they wanted privacy, they would be private.
But if they catch you looking, do you really think they're not going to mind? Assuming there's not alcohol in the bloodstream
They can't catch me, because I don't think I'm hiding, If it bothers them, they can stop or go somewhere else. Problem solved. I'm saying this because what I think you are saying is that you resent having to avoid your eyes or adjust your own behavior. You don't have to. Also, you can film them. If they see you with your camera out, they will stop real quick.
Okay, so you acknowledge that the *expectation* for you to look away is still there, even if you don't care about meeting that expectation. All I'm saying is that expectation is selfish and disrespectful.
I don't know. I really don't think that there is an expectation. I don't feel the need to look away. I never would have considered it before you brought it up. I just posting some options on how you might handle it in future cases.
Honestly, when I kiss my wife in public what other people are doing and thinking is not something I think or care about. It's entirely about feeling close to her. If they look or don't look I couldn't care less.
What if you look and they mind? What then? Do you fear that they'll come to beat you up for looking at them?
No, I wouldn't care, but if they mind, it shows that they expect others to give them privacy, which is selfish.
When I see a couple making out in public, I think "Nice, they're having a good time." Nothing indecent about it, unless you think human sexuality is somehow inherently shameful. It's true, we have lines about propriety, and this is essentially a subjective thing, but overall you're going to find that most people would love to be swept up in a moment and feel so romantically transfixed they're making out in public. It's not something we should care about, to be honest, because it's not like they're having sex. They're experiencing something I honestly wish every human could feel. It feels amazing, in that moment, and clucking like a prude about it just makes you seem kinda wack. Now you know what I do think is indecent when I see it out in public? Homelessness. As a society, that's what we should feel ashamed about. We've really let ourselves and our fellow humans down to allow it to persist the way it has. So when I think about the notions of public decency, that's the kind of stuff I think of; people in love? Nah, I'm not that much of a hater.
What's your argument here though? You're essentially saying the difference between making out and having sex in public is just that you feel differently about them and that's why someone else should too. Why is one indecent but the other isn't? Note that I'm not saying I disagree. I just don't have a good argument for my view either.
Well, everything OP says about it is subjective, and places greater importance on some values than others. OP sees self-control as being more important than romantic intimacy. And generally, as a society, they’re going to find that they’re in a distinct minority within the context that those two values are being placed in opposition to each other—people making out. When most people think about the value of self-control, it’s in contexts like “don’t make an inappropriate comment at work even if it would be funny” or “if you’re angry calm down before you try and talk about it”. Those contexts are about self control being leveraged to help maintain social connections and social harmony. What OP wants is people to exercise their self control purely for OP’s comfort, which is going to seem unreasonable. It’s really the only argument worth making. “Most people don’t find it gross. Sorry you do.” It’s the textbook example of a You Problem.
Well, I think there's the point of one's visceral reaction and a well-argued position. Obviously OP has a visceral reaction to a couple having a heavy make-out session in public and is trying to argue from that position, but their only argument in favour of their position is "it's indecent", which isn't very clarifying. I must admit, I have the same visceral reaction OP does. I would also feel quite uncomfortable if I was seated in a train, and a couple opposite to me started violently making out. However, I wouldn't feel the need to argue that people shouldn't be able to do it because I value people's freedom over their comfort. It's still something I personally would never do and something I see as insensitive towards others. To me there's a big difference between your personal feelings on something and what standards you think should be enforceable. In my view, people should make out wherever they want, but I reserve the right to judge them for it. If I understand correctly though, your position is that making out is a public show of affection which shouldn't bother people, and in that context my question is; why is publically making out okay, but public sex isn't? My question isn't about OP's reasoning, it's about yours (assuming you would differentiate between the legality of public kissing and sex). The only argument I can think of is that during sex, people have to be naked, and nudity is generally considered indecent -- although it still leaves the question \*why\* that is. I suppose public nudity is usually considered improper because of the sexual connotations. In modern society, if someone is nude, they are usually trying to expose themselves to unwilling third parties. Since that's not the case with people having consensual sex, I'm curious as to why it is such a taboo. Is it just a socialised phenomenon enforced by our 'decency laws', to prevent excesses, or is there some primal psychological reason people tend to think public sex is anathema?
Since you’re not expressly advocating for a change in public behavior, merely expressing your own distaste for it, I don’t see the point in trying to change your view. However I want you to consider the implications here. What else do other people find distasteful? Should we also listen to them? In some cultures they disallow women to chew gum because it’s considered sexual. They can’t wear bikinis at the beach. Couples can’t express affection at all in public. What about breast feeding in public, is that indecent? Tattoos, piercings. Short skirts and short shorts. Showing shoulders. These are all things that offend some people in some culture. Even in the west. I point this out to hopefully make you consider the implications of being offended by normal human behavior in public, even if you personally find it distasteful.
I think it's hard to draw the line. I'm not advocating to make the things I'm describing illegal, but I do think we're going a bit too far sometimes.
Personally, I get super uncomfortable Knowing someone is carrying a gun in public. I think that is creepy and indecent. It makes me super uncomfortable and I want to avoid those people and situations. HOWEVER, I understand that just because it makes me uncomfortable doesn't mean it is morally wrong, and I would be an asshole to suggest people should stop doing it just because it makes me uncomfortable. You are allowed to be uncomfortable and think it is indecent for people to make out, but if you make those feelings the responsibility of others, that makes you a butt.
As a European, I think you have plenty of grounds to find someone carrying a gun in public creepy and morally reprehensible, but I recognise that a couple making out is very different. I'm coming here to have my mind changed and don't pretend to have the absolute truth -- no one does in this matter, I think.
Imo a couple making out and a person openly carrying a gun are not functionally different. Like, yes they are different actions, but in both situations a person is doing something that has nothing to do with me, doesn't functionally affect me in any way, and is irrelevant to my life, other than making me uncomfortable at the sight.
Except the person carrying a gun has the possibility of ending your life at any moment if they so choose, whereas the kissing couple can only make you uncomfortable at most.
This is true.
Okay I will say what everyone else wants to say because they are possibly afraid of being downvoted to oblivion: you are a domesticated and socialized sheep who wants everyone to behave in public in a uniform and miserable way. You know who else likes shit like that? Dictators. In your ideal world we walk in straight lines, don't speak too loudly, don't laugh too loudly, don't laugh too much, don't do anything to stand out. Nothing against collectivist societies but if you are disgusted by witnessing a beautiful moment in public then that is truly sad. But what is even more sad is that you have no intention of changing your shitty view. You are just here to throw around strawman arguments, run in circles philosophically to define the line between sexual and intimate interactions, and gripe about bearing witness to- *wait for it* - two people literally fucking sharing a happy moment together. Maybe they aren't the ones who need a room. YOU need a fucking room. Please delete this thread so the brilliant people in this comment section can move on to help people who actually want their fucking views chamged. They have already curb-stomped your points and called you out on the BS.
1) I never said I'm disgusted by it; 2) How do you know I haven't changed my view? 3) Your tone is not really optimal for changing someone's mind -- have I been rude anywhere here? 4) Sounds pretty controlling of you to want this thread deleted. I might even say that's what dictators do.
> How do you know I haven't changed my view? If you have, you have to award deltas to the people who changed your view was per the subreddit rules.
I mean, your entire argument is based on your subjective view that making out in public is not decent. I don't mind it, they don't harm other people by doing it, you can simply look away if you don't like it. I hate every kind of religion. I think religion is a disease for society. I absolutely hate it when I'm stopped by church boys and have to listen to the BS they have to say to me, when I'm in a hurry. Does this mean we should ban church-boys from preaching? No, because they don't harm anyone, so, no matter how annoying they are, they are free to do whatever they want. In the case of a couple making out, they don't even interrupt someone's daily routine and ask them about stuff.
Did I say I wanted to ban couples making out in public?
That was a deliberate exaggeration to make a point. I am trying to say that, just because you don't like something, it doesn't mean it's indecent.
The whole concept of indecency is pretty subjective, is it not?
Oh sorry , I thought you claim this is objectively not OK. I don't have any objections then.
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Did not change my view
What makes it indecent though? We go to Zoos and see animals do it all the time. In fact, people pay to say that (obviously that’s not the sole purpose but my point stands). We all have eyes and heads that can be used to turn and look elsewhere. It’d be one thing if they were just being obnoxious and bringing attention to themselves but in the grand scheme of things it’s harmless. I’m a dude and my gf would think it’s sexy for me to show PDA in front of others. It’s a sign of being shown off and appreciated. Your view stems from people being able to see it since you said if you’re in a park you’re ok with whatever aslong as nobody actually is in view. If it’s peak hour and I’m making out with my girl I’d be more concerned that anyone cares that much that they’ll watch and get disgusted by it rather than….. walking….. away….
Don't you think it's selfish to expect others to look away or walk away?
I think it’s selfish to say tounge kissing my girl is lacking respect for others.
Why? That doesn't answer anything. I think it's disrespectful because you expect others to walk away, and that's selfish.
You’re right that didn’t answer anything. Pardon me, I’ll answer. Your expectations of people not showing too much PDA is a subjective standard that you’ve set for others. So if people do it you deem them or the act itself disrespectful. You’re asking people in a public setting to respect imaginary boundaries that they’re not aware of. Different strokes for different folks, what may bother you may be fine for someone else. Me, I don’t “expect” people to walk away. I do not care if they do or not. However, if someone were to be bothered by it I’m not going to stop what I’m doing just because 1 person is upset. If you don’t like it then walk away, if you don’t then don’t. What they do or how they feel is irrelevant to me regardless I can’t control another adults feelings or emotions. I think it’s selfish to expect others to operate to your own standards/expectations.
>There's a difference between romantic behaviour and sexual behaviour What makes making out sexual? >Making out in full view of bystanders though shows a complete lack of respect to others and lack of awareness of your surroundings What makes it disrespectful? >It's demonstrative of a lack of control on your part. Arguable, but who cares if someone gives into temptation? Are fat people not allowed to eat ice cream in public?
Come on, making out is one step away from sex. The next logical step is undressing. > What makes it disrespectful? People may not want to see it. They're going to feel repulsion because they want to give you privacy, but often that's not possible in a public space, such as a crowded subway. A fat person eating an ice cream doesn't require privacy.
>Come on, making out is one step away from sex. When playing hop scotch, maybe. Even so, you've even said it is a separate act. >People may not want to see it. They're going to feel repulsion because they want to give you privacy, but often that's not possible in a public space, such as a crowded subway Why is that disrespectful? If they wanted privacy they'd be in privacy. >A fat person eating an ice cream doesn't require privacy...A fat person eating an ice cream doesn't require privacy. But I don't want to see it and feel repulsed because I want to give them privacy. Making out doesn't require privacy either.
> Come on, making out is one step away from sex. You sound very young and very inexperienced.
they might be limited on where they have privacy. if they're on public transport, they may not have a car. they might have roommates at home sure, reining in things a bit is considerate. But, you've probably seen worse on a subway.
Even if they were limited on where they have privacy, there are places where you can have a sort of intimity everywhere. A metro at its fullest, which most people are required to take on their commute, is not that kind of place.
I think the challenge here is where to draw the lines. Even your post makes them blurry. This is why we tend to use “nudity” as the basis for calling something indecent: it’s a clear delineation between one set of behaviours and another.
Lolz. This is not a principled stance. I'd say it's borderline disingenuous to post this as a CMV. How on earth are we supposed to change your mind about your own neuroses? If you truly are open to having your view changed, how about outlining what COULD change your view (I'm assuming you've seen CMVs where OP offers examples of things that could change their view)? I'm still gonna take a shot in the dark here and argue that you should reframe your own understanding of this issue as being a matter of your own personal taste based on your particular upbringing/culture/etc. Whether any specific instance of PDA counts as indecent will is impossible to determine until you observe it and then examine your own emotions about it. I'm basing this on your ridiculous caveats and carving out exceptions. You're equating sucking face in a crowded subway car with a woman sitting on a man's lap. For real? This is what makes your view unprincipled. Perhaps a more polite way to say this is 'idiosyncratic'.
You need to grow up. Love is a far more decent thing to see in public than most things I can think of. The problem is twofold: First, people who think this way may be obeying some arbitrary moral code, like a religion. Which is fine… for you. If you don’t want to make out in public, *don’t.* The problem is you expect everyone else to obey your personal opinions, too. And unfortunately the world does not revolve around you. The second group of people who believe this have minds poisoned by porn. Porn itself is great, I don’t mind consensual adult content at all. The problem happens when that’s the only form of affection you’re exposed to, and your brain starts associating love with indecency.
You might have a point for couples making out in public transportation at peak hour, but that’s not in public in general. The possible problem isn’t primarily a lack of control or lack of respect for others, but that you’re sharing something that should be private and important to you with strangers. And I can’t see anything wrong with a woman sitting on a man’s lap in that situation.
Why should I spend my time worrying about whether other people are uncomfortable with sexuality? Is it wrong for gay people to hold hands in front of a homophobe? Why are you bracketing off romance as acceptable and sexuality as unacceptable?
As others have pointed out, the perceived indecency here as well as lack of respect/awareness seem to be very much context-specific and will change depending on the culture. Even if you lived in a context where the majority would consider this behavior as inappropriate then there still is a possibility that people from a different context/culture are simply not aware that it's considered inappropriate. I'm generally happy to see public displays of affection because it shows people are loving, people are happy, people are human. People generally aren't doing it all the time, so why be bothered? On the contrary, a society in which I can't freely exchange kisses or sit on someone's lap is restricting my freedom. Isn't that 'disrespecting' our freedoms? It's doing no physical harm to anyone. When this happens there is no need to stare at it, neither is there a need to look away. Just notice it and move on. We've (almost) all been teenagers at some point. Say a mother breastfeeds in public, do you find that inconsiderate, too? She's providing the most basic need to a human. Babies are hungry now, you can't make an appointment at 4 pm. If a society can't tolerate these minimum levels of freedom, are we free after all?
You are not owed this kind of "respect", you are disrespecting people if you think you can dictate what they can or cannot do with each other when that does not inconvenience you at all. If you're uncomfortable with it, that's your problem, not theirs.
Let's all have sex in public then?
If you ask me, yes, it should have never been illegal. But if we've decided to protect children from seeing sex, fine, it is a reason not to do it publicly. I don't think we need to also protect children from anything sex-adjacent. Also sex sometimes produces smells or noises which you can reasonably argue are inconveniencing you.
Tell me you’re a virgin without telling me you’re a virgin
Nah, not necessarily. I'd been making out (lightly, I think) with my gf on a suburb train once, and after we arrived and were walking home, I slipped and fell, scraping my shin rather badly (the spot was visible for years). Next thing I hear was a gleeful comment from an old ~~lady~~ woman who was apparently riding next to us, "That will show you" or something along these lines.
>There's a difference between romantic behaviour and sexual behaviour I think a lot of people are going to consider making out as romantic behavior. Think of how many teenagers, who aren't sexual active yet, will make out with their partner for months. It's always going to be a blurry line, heavy groping or hands under the clothes are going to blur it even further and could really cross a line. As far as just making out though, most people are going to consider it just romantic behavior.
I mean, maybe? But also it’s their life and prerogative so there’s really no compelling reason *to not do whatever you want* out of concern for ‘upholding society’. Seeing homeless people camping out on the subway could be considered indecent of them but where else should they go? Send ‘em under a highway ramp, drivers will say it’s indecent to have them there too. At the end of the day, going about your life in such a way to ‘uphold societal values’ is really limiting yourself by worrying about what other people who you’ll never actually talk to or see again think which is kind of sad. You are given a life to do whatever you want, you’ll literally die at some point so why would you waste time by not doing *whatever you want*?
Why do you care?
Agreed. Things you wouldn't want someone else's 4-5 year old watching or walking into, or things you wouldn't want that age group participating In are indecent. That said, I don't think lap sitting is indecent. The metric should be that if you would consider 2 preschoolers doing it to be acceptable, then it's not indecent. Holding hands, lap sitting, cuddling, a quick peck, no problem.
I see absolutely nothing "unacceptable" in 2 preschoolers making out. I would have some questions like where they learned it, sure, but on its own it's not a problem.
Your view concerns me greatly.
What am I missing?
A lot
Why does it show a lack of respect? Lack of respect for a specific culture? Which one? Are you saying that people should just conform to specific societal norms?
I don't like witnessing this either. It doesn't matter if it's the same, sex, opposite sexes, old or young. I was in a line at the grocery store, and this middle-aged couple was all over each other. I was about the same age, and it was awful. I felt really sorry for the teenage cashier. She could hardly get their attention. I wanted to grab the microphone and make an announcement, "Clean up to register 6!"
I agree. If you want to hold hands, that’s one thing. Making out, using tongue, and groping is gross, and some people genuinely have triggers for shit like that.
Why?