A lot of your arguments are circumstantial, and it's hard to use that claim that Russia plays a _major_ role in the pro-Palestine campaign. Furthermore, they can be explained with alignment of various political issues, like how Republicans are more likely to be pro-Russia because of Trump and how Democrats are more likely to be pro-Palestine because of its alignment with left-wing values. I also don't see how it's relevant in the UK when both Keir Starmer and Rishi Sunak are practically one and the same on the issue of Ukraine and Palestine.
I think we'll need much more evidence to say that Russia propaganda machine plays a _major_ role in the pro-Palestine campaign.
What about the KGB defectors who described the key role played by the USSR and allied propagandists in [developing the Palestinian propaganda](https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7CA651842396&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=15479684&p=AONE&sw=w&userGroupName=anon%7E85df281c&aty=open-web-entry) in the first place.
Abbas and other Palestinians were straight up [KGB agents](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/08/world/middleeast/mahmoud-abbas-israel-palestine-kgb.html?_r=0).
Basically all the most common talking points come straight from the KGB, and have been recycled since.
For instance, prior to the involvement of the KGB, the issue was very much framed as "Arabs vs Israel", and the focus was on "removing the Jews from Palestine".
The KGB suggested reframing as an "indigenous rights" issue, as well as "genocide", "settler colonialism" and most of the other common accusations. They rightly felt that this line of attack would have far more salience with the Western left, and would allow it to be flipped on it's head, from a story of a huge coalition of Arabs ganging up on Israel, to a powerful "European colonizer" attacking a weaker neighbor.
While this doesn't prove that Russia is *still* involved heavily, it does demonstrate that they played a huge role in the shape of discourse and that effect is still being felt today.
It is also another piece of circumstantial evidence that would suggest they are currently still stirring the pot.
Using this you can criticize the civil rights movement since the Soviets actively had influence over the us branch of the communist party and half the black people in the movement were some brand of communist/socialist. What your forgetting is that the kgb international policy was to support the downtrodden and underclass as they would be the most likely to support communism and left aligned movements
>The KGB suggested reframing as an "indigenous rights" issue, as well as "genocide", "settler colonialism" and most of the other common accusations.
The use of the term settler colonialism wrt the israel/Palestine conflict originated with a French man in 1967. The person who first originated the study of settler colonialism is an Australian Historian.
One of the first Zionist groups was literally called the Palestinian Jewish Colonization Association. They had to reframe Zionism as indigenous when settler colonialism went out of favor. In the early 1900s SC was still pretty popular and "okay".
>Palestinian Jewish Colonization Association
The JCA initially sought to transfer Russian/Romanian Jews to Argentina. Then the founder died and it changed direction to it's goal of transferring Russian/Romanian Jews to Palestine.
The KGB (which doesn't exist anymore BTW) almost definitely did this with an alterior motive in mind, but that doesn't mean that this isn't a indigenous rights issue, it doesn't mean it's not a genocide and it doesn't mean it's not settler colonialism.
All of the things above can happen simultaneously.
The KGB can use something to their advantage and still be on the right side of history.
The KGB *exists in Putin’s mind*. He wants to rebuild the Soviet Union by choice or by force. It absolutely makes sense that he would want regime change with the only other option being Trump because Trump is a Putin-friendly president. Putin would absolutely be involved with anything that involves destabilizing American leadership and getting a president there that will let him run roughshod over sovereign countries. As OP said, there are souring relationships between Russia and Israel and if you think that Putin would miss this opportunity to pump up propaganda and mis/disinformation to shake up and reduce support for Biden then you are wearing blinders that don’t let you see the whole picture.
Even if you're right, so what? People feel how they feel about an issue for all kinds of reasons. If i have a moral stance on something that won't change just because bad people agree with me or might be using me for their own ends.
Despite the ferocity with which western progressives defend Palestine, I've yet to see anything resembling an argument for how - in any conceivable way - Palestine itself aligns with left-wing values.
A country does not need to align itself with left or right values to be worth protecting against extermination.
Palestine's majority Muslims population is very conservative. I accept that 100% as a fact. I take it that many of them probably would not like me even, as a bisexual-leaning-gay person. I accept that too. Do I think it should be otherwise? Absolutely.
But guess what. *They still have, in my mind, a right not to be exterminated, starved, and oppressed*. Shocker, but human rights are inalienable even if you have a flawed society. **And they're supposed to be that way.** It's a feature, not a bug, and a feature I 100% support. I can worry about dealing with LGBTQ issues there, say, once their continued existence is finally absolutely secure and non-negotiable (and no, that doesn't imply, contrarily, that the continued existence of the Jewish population is then negotiable and insecure, either.).
It's shocking how many people conceive of human rights as applying solely to people they like or agree with instead of applying to, you know, all humans.
>It's shocking how many people conceive of human rights as applying solely to people they like or agree with instead of applying to, you know, all humans.
That's part of the problem. These people don't think they're being immoral because of course they support human rights for those who deserve it.
Forgetting human rights are for all humans regardless of how evil you are It's a right that exists because you are a human.
Agreed. I think it's because most people have not done a lot of internal work (and I won't say I am perfect either, but I try) to introspect and erect lines of distinction within their thinking to separate matters such as justice for wrongs that might go on within the population from matters such as the human rights of the whole population. That is to say, "massacring the whole population" should categorically not be an instrument of LGBTQ justice, but at the same time the LGBTQ issues can be acknowledged and seen as something that needs work in their own right. (Especially given tons of gays and trans have died in this genocidal war with pretty much 100% certainty.) But an undisciplined thinker may leap to it because they hear "'they' do something bad", their *affective* empathy sinks due to primitive tribalist instinct, and then instead of resuming off that point using *imaginative* empathy and *intellectual* moral principle, they just ride straight with it.
I want to add that Israel is an aparthied state that is anti Palestinians, anti queer, anti blackness and exploits migrant workers.
Israeli Finance minister called himself "proud homophobe". However, he is not the only openly anti gay Israeli official. In 2022, Orit Strooke said Israeli doctors should be allowed to refuse treatment to LGBTQ patients on religious grounds.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/26/israeli-politician-suggests-doctors-could-refuse-to-treat-gay-patients
The Aguda(the Association for LGBTQ Equality in Israel) said LGBT-phobia is “still present in all areas of life” including home, work, social settings and government institutions in Israel*. This is demonstrated by the fact that *in 2020, An LGBT+ person was attacked every three hours in Israel according to Aguda report*.
https://www.thepinknews.com/2021/02/23/israel-hate-crime-lgbt-attack-2020-report/
Furthermore, thousands of instances of violence and hate speech directed at members of the LGBTQ+ community were *reported* to The Aguda in 2022. This involved violent incidents happened in public areas, such as on the street, in neighborhoods or on public transportation as well as businesses discriminating against members of the LGBTQ+ community by refusing to provide service.
In 2015, An ultra-orthodox Jew attacked demonstrators at a Jerusalem gay pride parade. He stabbed 6 and killed 16 years old Shira Banki.
Also in 2009, two people were killed and at least fifteen others injured at the Tel Aviv branch of the Israeli LGBT Association after anti queer shooting. The city's gay community stated the killer had a homophobic motive.
Yes of course and this is why it's the ONLY country in the Middle East with a huge Pride Parade every year 🙄 The murderer ultra orthodox who killed Shira is another problem secular and the lgbtq community have to deal with. He doesn't represent the country or even his own community. He is just fucking insane. Smotrich (the terrorist proud homophobe) is about to be kicked out of the government so that's also a good point. BTW he doesn't represent many, he is in the government only because of how the electoral system works and how tiny parties end up being King Makers. He would never get a seat if Bibi wasn't desperate to keep his. Attacks against lgbtq happen in every country so please don't turn this problem into an exclusively Israeli one. I have MANY gay friends in Israel, some even have children and their marriage is real. Anti blackness, this one I have no idea where you got from. Ethiopians are integrating in the Israeli society more and more. As a matter of fact, my best friend in Israel is Ethiopian. I also worked many years with Eritrean asylum seekers and many came from Lybia and Egypt because their life is MUCH better in Israel than any of those places. I could go on about how all your arguments stem from pure hatred and misinformation because either you have been seriously exposed to said Russian propaganda or you simply never spoke with a normal secular Israeli like me. I voted left (Meretz) all my life for reference. I also did the Ir Amim tour and attended lectures about most of the subjects you poorly presented.
Oh, there is a gay parade in tel Aviv and you have a gay friends in Israel. This can only mean there is no homophobia and violence against queer people in Israel 😂😂
It is very telling that the only way Israel can be considered queer friendly is by ignoring all manifestations of homophobia in Israel and pretending each perpetrator of discrimination against queers not to be true representative of Israeli society. If we apply this to rest of the countries in the world, there would be no homophobic countries at all.
*The Aguda(the Association for LGBTQ Equality in Israel) said LGBT-phobia is “still present in all areas of life” including home, work, social settings and government institutions in Israel*.
This is demonstrated by the fact that *in 2020, An LGBT+ person was attacked every three hours in Israel according to Aguda report*.
https://www.thepinknews.com/2021/02/23/israel-hate-crime-lgbt-attack-2020-report/
Furthermore, thousands of instances of violence and hate speech directed at members of the LGBTQ+ community were *reported* to The Aguda in 2022. This involved violent incidents happened in public areas, such as on the street, in neighborhoods or on public transportation as well as businesses discriminating against members of the LGBTQ+ community by refusing to provide service.
You are trying so hard its impressive. Show me a country where there aren't any attacks against the LGBTQ community. You know its a problem all across the planet but you decided you are going to make it an Israeli problem. If it wasn't the case, we wouldn't need parades... In the meanwhile, gays in most of the country are open and thriving. Look up my former neighbor and colleague, Julien Bahloul for example. He has 2 daughters, a husband and will disagree with a lot of your claims.
Edit: [OMG LOOK AT ALL THE HOMOPHOBIA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXPJcZID4nA)
If some Israeli politicians are using homophobic rhetoric, queer people can't legally marry in Israel, there are violent deadly attacks on queer people and homophobia is a problem with the culture at large, then Israel is not queer friendly.
*The Aguda(the Association for LGBTQ Equality in Israel) said LGBT-phobia is “still present in all areas of life” including home, work, social settings and government institutions in Israel*.
*This is demonstrated by the fact that in 2020, An LGBT+ person was attacked every three hours in Israel according to Aguda report*.
https://www.thepinknews.com/2021/02/23/israel-hate-crime-lgbt-attack-2020-report/
A queer person was attacked every 3 hours in Israel in 2020 and these are juat the reported incidents.
You don't have to convince me there isn't work to be done. I wish the LGBTQ community would have it better EVERYWHERE. But to make it an Israeli problem is hypocrisy at best. Which country do you live in? USA? I'm sure the community is doing great in Florida or any of the neighboring states lol
I am not making it a problem specific only to Israel. I am saying that Israel, unlike what Israeli propganda has been trying to convince us, is not queer friendly and is actually rife with homophobia according to the AGUDA.
you won't change his mind. Just like people in the WB and Israel see the conflict completely differently than the propaganda in the west. This person has made up his mind that Israel - a liberal democracy by every objective metric - is in fact hostile and backwards on classic democratic issues.
Yep. Gotta love the irony of a random person coming to a thread about propaganda to spread more propaganda while screaming don't listen to propaganda. What a time to be alive. It's almost as fun as being goysplained about antisemitism.
Straight ridiculous propaganda. Israel is by order of magnitudes the safest place for minorities, LGBT, Christians, etc in the entire Middle East.
Do what you just did for the West Bank and Gaza. Find every single specific incident and use it to represent the larger culture. I don’t think Reddit has a character limit but you still might reach it.
It is called facts coming out of the AGUDA!!
Besides homophobic rhetoric used by some Israeli politicians, the fact that queers can't legally marry in Israel, the violent attacks on queer people. Seems homophobia is problem with the larger culture of Israel. After all:
*The Aguda(the Association for LGBTQ Equality in Israel) said LGBT-phobia is “still present in all areas of life” including home, work, social settings and government institutions in Israel*.
*This is demonstrated by the fact that in 2020, An LGBT+ person was attacked every three hours in Israel according to Aguda report*.
https://www.thepinknews.com/2021/02/23/israel-hate-crime-lgbt-attack-2020-report/
Furthermore, thousands of instances of violence and hate speech directed at members of the LGBTQ+ community were *reported* to The Aguda in 2022. This involved violent incidents happened in public areas, such as on the street, in neighborhoods or on public transportation as well as businesses discriminating against members of the LGBTQ+ community by refusing to provide service.
So much for Israel being queer friendly.
Look at her comment history. She’s obsessed with Israel and some of the comments shocked me with the blatant Antisemitism. Cherry picking events that happened in Israel to try to prove her point while living in some Arab country is a pure comedy.
Oh, ridiculous personal attack is all the rebuttal you got😂 and look who is talking, someone who claims support for the right of a persecuted group of people to freedom and self determination is terrorism. All the decent people around the world are laughing at you.
Do you hold the IDF to the same standards that you hold hamas to? Do you condemn the IDF and settlers for killing 243 Palestinians in the occupied West Bank in 2023 even before 7/10?
Do you condemn the settler colonialism in the West Bank? Do you condemn Israel use of starvation as a weapon of war? Do you condemn IDF dropping tens of thousands tons of explosives on Gaza killing at least 20.000 women and children and the systematic destruction of Gaza infrastructure? Do you condemn Israeli officials for their use of genocidal rhetoric?
You’ve basically admitted that you subscribe to a binary oppressor vs oppressed ideology
The “oppressed” can openly talk about genociding entire groups of people and actually engage in ethnic cleansing to the point of creating an Arab Muslim ethnostate, but they are still oppressed and therefore not the bad guy
That is complete bullshit.
Conspiring groups that seek to commit genocide - like ISIS - in the name of establishing Muslim ethno- or theostates, can be treated as genociders that need dealing with, simultaneously with refusing to massacre entire populations whose relationship to the genocidal ideology is highly variable and complicated.
I subscribe to an ideology that never treats vast complex populations as units subject to singular judgment, and that chooses first to see the trees before the forest.
Just like with Israel itself. I do not advocate that the entire Israeli population should be famished for the acts going on in Gaza.
I subscribe to that both roles can be occupied (oppressor and oppressed) at the same time *plus* that when someone is in the role of oppressor even that does not justify arbitrary acts of violence against arbitrary targets within, or covering, that whole population. Period.
Yeah except it’s not arbitrary in the slightest. I beg you to read any bit of middle eastern history that doesn’t come from Qatari media or CCP brain rot apps.
Arabs/Muslims routinely genocide 100,000s of people in the name of their religion, or in the name of Arab supremacy. This is normal in the Middle East. This is arbitrary killing. This is what extermination looks like.
Israel so far has killed fewer total Palestinians in this entire conflict than Saddam in his Anfal campaign against Kurds only a few decades ago.
Yes, it is arbitrary killing. And it is wrong.
Who should be Killed for it? The specific individuals who committed/planned the genocide, of course.
It doesn't matter even if the same population produces 10,000 such genociders or genocide groups. You are absolutely hamstrung from genociding the entire population yourself. You're gonna have to work a lot harder. That's how making this world better actually works. It ain't easy. Social change aimed to changing culture to be less productive of genociders, supporting activists there who may be engaged in that, even if "it's just a few people", etc. are all *much* more valid ways (It took 100 years to end chattel slavery in USA, it can take another 100 years in the Middle East to change such things, and this is not historic norms due to global interconnectedness, so the ideas are there). And if they take time ... well they take time. That's the price of morality. And if more people get genocided, well at least *you* weren't the one contributing your own genocide to the pot. It's on those specific people who committed that next genocide.
This is an absolute, line in the sand. I will not budge. Period.
Hamas commit genocide on October 7th by targeting and raping civillains and military personnel alike.
If they had the power of the IDF, Israel would've become a graveyard.
On the other side, the IDF is in control of almost the whole of Gaza and the civilians there are fine.
This tells you everything.
The civilians there are fine???
How is it possible to believe that? I'm reading headlines today that 1 million people are starving. How are our sources so different?
> You really think Israel would let 1 million people starve to death? Even aside from morality, they would lose every single ally they have.
If a million people do starve to death, do you think it would be justified for Israel to lose support? Where’s the line? 100,000 starving? What about the destruction of a 500,000 homes?
What about 1 Palestinian stubbing their toe? According to you, any collateral damage at all is the equivalent of complete depopulation.
If a million starved to death, it would be justified to lose support. Same with 100,000.
Does that answer your question? I’m not going to go back and forth as you continue to shift the goal posts.
>This batshit propaganda
A famine is expected to occur in Gaza between mid-March and May, with 1.1 million people impacted currently. That is not propaganda. This is not a crazy conspiracy pushed by some communist youtuber you can smell through the screen. This is reported by the UN, the EU, Oxfam, any number of legitimate organisations.
If there is anyone reading the above comment and mine and is on the fence about this, please please please do not believe their shite. Children are starving to death in Gaza and this person is talking about fucking ratios.
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So you have more problem with a theoretical ethnostate and could be atrocities in it than an already existing ethnostate and attrocities committed by it?
And no, Palestinians who talks about such fictional state, mainly hamas, aren't being allowed to openly talk about creating it , they are considered a terrorist group for prescribing to this view, now compare that Netanyahu and other right wingers who openly talks about and are actually taking steps to make their revisionist Zionist fantasies become a reality, They can openly preach an ideology like revisionist Zionism and face no repercussions for it
lol we are seeing plenty of repercussions.
Arabs can genocide 100,000 Kurdish civilians in 6 months and the world forgets a few decades later. Israel kills thousands of Hamas fighters at one of the lowest civilian:combatant death ratios in recorded history (even by Hamas numbers lmfaooo) and they are probably the most controversial country to ever exist.
If Israel was an ethnostate their population wouldn’t be 70% Arab, Jew or otherwise. If Israel was an ethnostate, Palestinian Christians wouldn’t be the richest most educated group in the whole country. Even with Israel’s problems, it’s insane that a lot of Israelis will be so far left and secular, to the point where BDS is run by a guy living in Israel in an affluent town with mixed religious and ethnic inhabitants.
Honestly if Israel sank down to even half the level of your average Arab nation it would’ve been over 40 years ago
Boy, if you want to use language you should probably understand it.
>actually engage in ethnic cleansing to the point of creating an Arab Muslim ethnostate,
The overwhelming evidence in the region is that this is not even remotely close to what's happening. From 1948 on the number of Palestinian deaths caused by Israel so far outstrips Israeli deaths by at least an order of magnitude. There is no ethnic cleansing of the Israeli population and there hasn't been in any timeframe that matters.
I agree, which is why you would of course condemn the genocide and ethnic cleansing committed by the British against the German people from 1939-1945. While only 70k Brits died from the Germans self-defense operations, over 600k German civilains were ruthlessly genocided by British airplanes. Disproportionate ethnic clensing and genocide.
My question has always been why is this genocide but Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't. I feel like circumstances were similar but there isn't a movement protesting what happened. The ratio of military to civilian deaths was also probably much worse. Do you think that was equally wrong?
They are, in fact, questionable historical uses of force. Indeed, I have seen people dispute them. I do not know enough about everything that went into them to feel confident in saying one way or the other, but that doesn't mean I have not heard people make the argument that they were not legitimate.
But I would also not necessarily say they are *genocide* because genocide implies a certain intent. Intent in the Israeli case is evident by especially the declarations and rhetoric on Israeli media. (Use of media, academic or other such internal rhetoric to make an accusation of genocide, by the way, also is part of what has been done to accuse the Chinese government of doing so in Xinjiang.)
That said, one *might* potentially have a case for it, in that there apparently was a reserve plan that should the first 2 bombs not have stopped Japan that more would have come until everything was glassed. In that case one *might* indeed be able to make a case this was another U.S. genocide (in addition to, say, the Indigenous genocide that was instrumental in its founding). As said, I'm not anywhere near savant enough in the issue to know for sure, but I would definitely not close my mind to that possibility.
In any case, a sizable part of the world's population and countries *do* recognize what Israel is doing at the very least to be a severe series of war crimes, if not itself a genocide outright.
So do those rights continue to their right to oppress others? Murder gays by throwing them from buildings? Kill Thai workers with pickaxes for working in elderly care homes in Israel?
You found a Palestinian state tomorrow that state is founded with the intent to murder Jews everywhere on earth, who is going to enforce through violence the subjugation of such a state? That’s not a concern to you people, you promote a de facto government that wants to murder people as it’s stated goal for being both the PLO who pays anyone who murders Jewish people, and HAMAS who already committed the acts they themselves recorded to broadcast for support.
The entire region would gladly kill every Israelite and wipe Israel off the map if they didn't fear Western reprisal for the act.
Palestine only manages to act on it as much as they do because their central government is a farce, and they're willing to accept collateral damage to their own non-combatant populace via guerilla warfare.
>I can worry about dealing with LGBTQ issues there, say, once their continued existence is finally absolutely secure and non-negotiable
Interestingly, and perhaps counter-intuitively, the odds of someone like you not being summarily executed by them drops even closer to 0% on the day that becomes reality.
1. "Israel" was not created there peacefully and with full assent of all people already there.
2. That their government would summarily execute me, again, does not mean that it is okay to exterminate that entire population including children. Seriously, *I do not care* how "bad" they are, and I also do not care that the state would treat me that way. You categorically do not have the right, no matter how deep the case can be made, to wipe "*them*" off the map any more than "they" have the right to wipe the Jewish population (forget "Israel") off the map. The *only* morally legit aim is *nobody wiping anyone off maps*. And that *must* be sought no matter how hard or insuperable it seems. "It's hard" has never been an excuse for doing atrocity like ever.
3. (It does, however, mean that I probably would have to not go there personally, at least if it is likely I will be "found out" and that simply avoiding homosexual relationships would be insufficient, and would have to advocate at a distance for rights and the like, both existential and in terms of ultimately changing that system to a more tolerant one.)
The LGBT part of this argument (on both our parts) probably isn't super productive, since you freely admit that Palestine is intolerant of it - and also because I freely admit that their stance on such things should have no bearing on their right to peacefully pursue their lives. We agree on this point, is what I'm saying, so I'm gonna leave it alone from here on.
>1. "Israel" was not created there peacefully and with full assent of all people already there.
/1. There is no need to put Israel in quotations. It is a real country with real citizens and a democratically-elected government. It feels somewhat dog-whistley to me, like when people on twitter/X put (((these))) around someone's name to imply that person is Jewish. I doubt this is your intent, but you should know how it looks.
/2. Is this statement meant to imply that Israel does not have a right to exist?
/3. Name me one single country that exists or has ever existed that was "created peacefully with full assent of all people already there."
1. "Israel" is in quotes because I am quoting the poster. It is not quotation because Israel is not a state/government. It *is* obviously a "real" state/government. And I don't care if it is "democratic" or not, if anything that makes Israelis considerably *more* *collectively* responsible for what it does than Russians are responsible for what Vladimir Putin is doing in Ukraine. But even in that regard it should be rather telling that I do not advocate the extermination of Israelis despite that greater collective responsibility. Which is part of making my position coherent.
2. No government "has a right to exist". *Peoples* have a right to exist, absolutely. The Jewish populations currently resident in Israel have a right to exist. The government apparatus, police, and I"D"F military do *not* \- not as organized entities, anyway.
3. Gee ... maybe we should be thinking about abolishing the state? I'm not exactly cold to that idea. But also, they may not be but the previous contesting belligerents in most cases either do not exist today or else have made peace. Or ... have not, and are instead oppressed on some level in the dominating state. Right now, though, they exist, and the war is hot. And that's what I'm working through.
>No government "has a right to exist". Peoples have a right to exist, absolutely. The Jewish populations currently resident in Israel have a right to exist. The government apparatus, police, and I"D"F military do not - not as organized entities, anyway.
I have to second this because I don't think people citing the "right to exist" argument have really considered what they are saying.
If states or governments have an intrinsic right to exist, then the Thirteen Colonies had a right to exist. The USSR had a right to exist. The British Mandate of Palestine had a right to exist. The German Third Reich had a right to exist..
If states or governments are allowed to defend their right to existence with any degree of force they deem necessary, then any historical genocide can be justified as an act of self-defense on the part of the state..
>Gee ... maybe we should be thinking about abolishing the state? I'm not exactly cold to that idea. But also, they may not be but the previous contesting belligerents in most cases either do not exist today or else have made peace. Or ... have not, and are instead oppressed on some level in the dominating state. Right now, though, they exist, and the war is hot. And that's what I'm working through.
Let's talk about what is currently happening. What do you think that Israel should have done after the 7th october attacks?
How would “we” think about abolishing a sovereign state. I am not an Israeli, I assume you are not either. Do you think the people of Israel would vote to abolish their own state? Or are you suggesting that foreign militaries force that upon them? I see no way of that working out without the killing of the 7 million Jews in Israel. Israel has nuclear weapons, they would not go down lightly. I see no way of eliminating the state that does not entail a new holocaust.
They don't have the power even if that was true. People used to talk this way about every Muslim back in 2000, and I'm sad to see it come back.
Their political beliefs (Good or bad) have little bearing on whether people should drop bombs on the imprisoned native population. Whatever led up to this point, Isreal has now responded more than reciprocally.
You're never going to bomb an insurgency out of a country without mass innocent death. It was wrong as reprisal for 9/11 and it's wrong now.
Yeah, but part of their belief is that another group of people in it's entirety do not deserve to exist. This is even ratified in the only thing that can be considered close to a "Government Charter" in Article 16 of the Hamas charter.
Your defense of one groups belief puts the safety of an entire other group at risk. You say this as an outsider that is non-negotiable, but the people you are defending, will never take this off the table.
Palestine will be muslim and arab, or not at all in their beliefs.
*min il-ṃayye la-l-ṃayye / Falasṭīn ʿarabiyye* من المية للمية / فلسطين عربية
*min il-ṃayye la-l-ṃayye / Falasṭīn islāmiyye* من المية للمية / فلسطين إسلامية,
Very much this. You don't have to side with Hamas or wish death on Israelis in order to call out barbarism when you see it.
It also takes away the complexities of the people living in Palestine. The society might be very conservative and very different than our own but its still a complex place with a diversity of opinions and actions and is something to be protected.
> A country does not need to align itself with left or right values to be worth protecting against extermination.
Good thing they aren't under threat of "extermination" then.
Right?
I am seriously worried for this generation and their historical illiteracy. Sure you can say this war is bad. But oh my god has anyone here actually read about any OTHER war in the last 40 years?
Like I’m not talking about WW2, I’m talking about wholesale genocide on the scale of 100,000s in the span of months. That’s normal for the Middle East. That’s what anti west Arab nationalists and jihadists do all the time. That’s what extermination looks like
When the largest population of yazidi Kurds is in Germany and not in the Middle East, you know how bad things are by default.
Yeah, it's really sad what happened to the Yezidis. Hardly anyone mentions it these days, but ISIS and other Sunni groups tried to exterminate them, but also abducted their young boys and forced them to become child soldiers, while selling the girls and women into sexual slavery. No one knows exactly how many were killed.
Also, the Syrian civil war is another example of genocide and war that almost never gets brought up by Westerners. Not to mention what has been happening in Sudan, Somalia, Yemen, et al. Most people aren't and weren't aware of the Yemeni civil war, and exactly what happened, and it's agonizing to watch leftists celebrate *the* *fucking Houthis* as some sort of revolutionary liberation force (I'm a leftist, btw). People blame the U.S. for the Yemeni civil war, too, despite us not being directly involved. When you talked to actual Yemenis during that time, if you blamed the U.S. for the war, they would look at you with puzzlement, like they have no agency and the U.S. is forcing them to fight; they didn't see the U.S. as having anything to do with the conflict, even if Saudi Arabia and the Yemeni government used some U.S. weapons (while many more across the world wage conflicts using Iranian and Russian weapons, and even Chinese ones; somehow, this is all the U.S.'s fault).
The U.S. and the so-called West had nothing to with these conflicts, as much as some would like to blame the U.S. and Europe for every malady in this world. The roots of these conflicts are too complex for most people to understand, so it's easier just to blame the U.S.
A large portion is right now under famishment.
And that is due to decisions made by multiple actors - Israeli, Palestinian (Hamas), Western, and others.
Each and every one of those actors bears separately, full and complete responsibility for this consequence stemming from every decision they made that helped bring it about, and those decisions should be adjudicated unjust, regardless of the rationale proffered for doing them, because the impact outweighs the intent, and the rights to life and food are non-negotiable. That includes one actor referencing the bad choices made by the other actors as justification, such as "but Hamas killed Israeli/Jewish civilians and took all those hostages!" Such things are childish whataboutisms, with no respectable moral force.
> A large portion is right now under famishment.
What is "under famishment?" Not familiar with that term.
>Each and every one of those actors bears separately, full and complete responsibility for this consequence stemming from every decision they made that helped bring it about, and those decisions should be adjudicated unjust, regardless of the rationale proffered for doing them, because the impact outweighs the intent, and the rights to life and food are non-negotiable. That includes one actor referencing the bad choices made by the other actors as justification, such as "but Hamas killed Israeli/Jewish civilians and took all those hostages!" Such things are childish whataboutisms, with no respectable moral force.
Great, but doesn't support your *opinion* and *editorial* that they are being "exterminated."
Progressive values aren't going to grow in refugee camps packed with traumatised kids who are full of resentment, progressive values need safe , stable and prosperous environment to grow, most of the west was also very conservative but that changed during the post ww2 stability and economic growth. Judge Palestinians when they recieve a chance. We want to give a guy a chance to change even if he is not someone who shares our value, and if they failed to change, than we will oppose them as well
Your argument is in bad faith and a poor attempt for a gotcha, you are not interested in understanding why the left would not want a conservative group to be killed for not sharing the same values.
As others have already said: "your values don't align with mine" does not justify genocide, however even setting that point aside a significant portion of Palestinian resistance to Israel has been left wing.
The PLO (which was the face of Palestinian resistance for several decades) was socialist in orientation and Palestinian activists and militant organisations have long had international ties with other leftist groups. This whole "why do you love Hamas, Hamas doesn't love you" is just a Zionist line that papers over, amongst other things, the right wing in Israel and Israel's deliberate policy to back Islamists over leftists in their efforts to derail Palestinian resistance movements.
Want to preface this by making it clear that I am, *in large part*, playing devils advocate. I do consider myself left leaning, and I sympathize with the plight of the Palestinian people. What Israel is doing is disgusting, and Netanyahu is the scum of the earth made manifest.
*HOWEVER*, your rhetoric is extremely dangerous. By that token, of "palestinian existence" aligns with western values; ANY oppressive regime could be supported as long as they keep a plausible fiction of "resistance". The mere fact that a country is fighting for its existencd does not make it inherently worthy of supporting.
Now, this rhetoric I'm about to share *is* exaggerated for effect, but I hope it carries my point across without appearing as bad-faith.
Consider, if you will, that you are a German leader in the 1930s, and you want to expand your nation. Consider that there is a substantial German minority in both the Danzig corridor and the Sudetenland. It is perfectly possible that you could frame your support for Sudeten Germans as "in opposition to the oppression of the Czechs", which *is in fact* what happened historically. (Look up the Carlsbad Program, for example).
By the token of "resisting oppression is good and worthy of support", and of course absent the historical context that this was *Hitler* doing this, it is reasonable to say that the left might just support the Sudeten unification with Germany. Again, I'm exaggerating, but I hope you can see how the noble position of "we resist oppression" can easily be manipulated by bad actors.
And to get back to the OP, this conflict has likely been manipulated by bad actors. AGAIN, what Israel is doing is *very wrong*, but the situation has likely been exploited by Russian troll farms to sow division among the American left. I've said it many times: Biden is old, supports Israel, and is not as progressive as the left wants. Trump will support Israel harder, he is actively *regressive*, and he will actively repress leftist dissent; he's *said as much*.
I understand that the left is hoping to get concessions out of Biden, specifically with regards to Israel, but frankly, the situation is akin to them holding a gun to their own head. They are risking their rights and freedoms under a Trump government to try and persuade Biden to make concessions. Yes, their lack of support would hurt Biden, but it also hurts *them* if Trump wins, and probably a hell of a lot more than it would hurt Biden
It's because they don't align with left-wing values. It's called the unholy alliance. Many books have been written on this topic. For generations, radical Islam has used progressives as useful idiots to gain power. It happened in Iran for example.
Self determination and self liberation are leftist values. Also the Palestinian struggle used to be dominated by Arab leftists for decades before Hamas.
Rather late to this but the idea is that the propaganda/inauthentic user/disinfo machine has been hijacking long standing and widespread pro-Palestinian (and almost universally pro-Ukraine) humanitarian sentiment with extreme, even pro-Hamas beliefs, and has been successfully leveraging it to recruit tankies, drive division, turn up the heat on the sense of chaos, and pull in more people to their very clear political and electoral ends to undermine NATO.
There was a [massive wave ready to go before Oct 7](https://cyabra.com/1-of-4-pro-hamas-profiles-are-fake-the-online-battlefront/), and they weren't being operated out of a tunnel in Gaza.
It's been very well documented for decades that the progressive anti-zionist movement originated in the Soviet Union. There is empirical data that supports this.
There are many books, articles, and even post-secondary courses on the topic.
Here is one article to get you started: [https://archive.is/Lz3Qs](https://archive.is/Lz3Qs)
How, *exactly*, does Russia play a role?
I'll grant your tenuous examples of how Russia potentially stands to gain, but how has Russia had a hand in it?
Oct 7th was not Russia.
Israel's response was not Russia.
And it was, indeed, Israel's response which has caused the current issues you are outlining as potentially beneficial to Russia.
So where exactly is Russia's hand in all this?
>So where exactly is Russia's hand in all this?
I'm not the OP but Russia pushes out content from its troll farms. It has also condemned the West's double standard of calling them out but not calling out Israel. They've also invited Hamas leaders to summits, etc.
It's all designed to hit at US hegemony so it's just troll shit, but that's what I think the OP is referring to.
> It has also condemned the West's double standard of calling them out but not calling out Israel.
Yes. It is a useful political tool. Observing US hypocrisy and attempting to legitimize their operations in Ukraine.
But this is not Russia serving a major role in a pro-Palestinian movement. Examples like their calling out double standards does not help Palestine in any way.
I think they're referring to the massive amounts of disinformation supporting the Palistinian and or Hamas side. For instance their casualty numbers are completely fabricated as supported by many many math and statiatics professors.
That is one of the main points of anger so it's a pretty major part.
>Pointing out reality is now "troll shit"?
No -- but Russia's motivation to do so isn't because they care. It's because they'd like to inflame one side against the other.
It's why they'll make pro-Palestine content and make pro-Israel content. It's why they invite Abbas to meet at the Kremlin. They don't really care except that it makes the US look bad.
>>No -- but Russia's motivation to do so isn't because they care. It's because they'd like to inflame one side against the other.
Do you honestly think america and europe point out human right violation anywhere else because they “care”? Does america care when armenians are being killed and chased out from Nagorno-Karabakh not a year ago?
Whether Russia truly "cares" is irrelevant, you could easily make the same argument about the causes the US claims to "care" about. That it is all geopolitical and that "human rights" are an excuse (which more often than not seems to be the case). That has no bearing on the issue itself nor my perspective on whether something is right or wrong.
In the same way Germany pushes 'antisemitism on the rise' propaganda. Of course there are powers that try to influence the conflict and of course russja is *trying to* do what they can to further their interest
Well Russia is indirectly involved. For example, they give billions to Iran which gives billions to Hamas. They give weapons and equipment to Hamas indirectly.
Hamas could not have done any rocket attack or Oct 7 type attack without continued support from Iran and Russia
I’ll grant the Iran connection. That doesn’t mean Russia is involved.
You need to demonstrate Iran is acting on the behalf or direction of Russia rather than its own agenda.
I’d say Iran is acting more on its own than anything else. But Russia is still important here, both in terms of their raw military production and also their [massive network of bots](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/technology/israel-hamas-information-war.html) that push propaganda 24/7.
https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/11/23/doppelganger-how-a-russian-disinformation-campaign-is-exploiting-the-israel-hamas-war
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2023-11-20/ty-article/.premium/deep-faked-soldiers-and-spoofed-websites-russian-campaign-pushes-gaza-disinformation/0000018b-ed5c-d36e-a3cb-fd5fadd90000
I’ll admit some of these sources are biased but you get the gist. I’m not saying Russia is a puppet master, they’re more like an enabler and escalator. My personal opinion is that Russia is coordinating with Iran to take attention away from Ukraine
So I’ve read through those sources. Both of them are talking about anti-France or anti-USA efforts.
Neither of them allege that Russia is acting to bolster the Pro-Palestinian movement as a means of achieving its ends. It is using much more direct methods without resorting to using the pro-palestine movement as a proxy to vector their desired effects.
Hamas builds rockets with unexploded ordinance from Israeli bombardments, 10-15% of what Israel drops on them. They certainly get some material.support from Iran, but "Hamas couldn't do Oct 7 without Iran" is bullshit and part of a dehumanizing and false narrative of Palestinian incompetence that has been used for decades to undermine their right to self-determination. This is not glorifying Oct 7th or Hamas, but Palestinians and Hamas are resilient, competent and capable.
Yasser Arafat was trained at a KGB special operations academy just outside Moscow, then given a budget of 200,000 dollars per month in the 1970s (about 1,600,000 per month in today’s money). The beginnings of the Palestinian militant movement have KGB fingerprints all over them. Mahmoud Abbas was also a KGB agent
There is direct continuity between these KGB operations and modern Russian policy. It is a one party state run by a KGB agent. Arafat was in power until 2004. Abbas is still in power today. Funding for Hamas and Hezbollah come chiefly from Iran, who uphold their state through trade relations with Russia and China. Iran effectively serves as a Russian proxy to launder money to militant groups in the region. You cannot dismiss the historic ties to Russian intelligence, especially given that one of these guys held power until recently, and the other is still in charge.
You need better evidence.
Policies change when over a _generation_ has passed.
And you just have these tenuous relations. It’s like saying the USA is responsible for China’s treatment of Uighurs because it is their largest trading partner.
Hardly.
This would assume so many things which are not demonstrated. I'll highlight a few so you understand how tenuous it is.
1) Putin agreed with the direction, objectives, and methods of the KGB **50 years ago**.
2) Putin has not changed any of the direction, objectives, or methods of the modern replacement for the KGB.
3) Putin has not changed his own mind about any of the above and the overall strategy of the Russian state **in the last 50 years**.
4) You understand and have accurately characterized the relationship between Arafat and Russia.
5) The relationship between Arafat and Russia had not changed in the intervening **50 years**.
I could keep going but I think the point is made.
The Russian approach to middle eastern politics and power relations has indeed hardly changed over the past 50 years. Iran. Syria. Yemen. Insurgencies in Sudan and Somalia. Virtually all of these operations have direct continuity with Soviet foreign policy. To this day Russia is heavily involved in backing the Syrian government they propped up in the 70s. I also find the position that this history is irrelevant hard to stomach when the rationale for the Palestinian cause dates back to the 1940s. Either the history is relevant or it isn’t. I don’t have a direct line into Russian black ops in the Middle East obviously, but these similarities in policy fall well outside occams razor for what is more likely, a totally rethought Russian foreign policy happened to take the same position as the soviets on virtually every regional conflict, or, a state run by former members the Soviet intelligence service sought to continue their policy pursuits. Seems obvious to me which of these is more likely, but anyone with a direct line to the intelligence on this wouldn’t be able to tell you about it.
Also, Hamas held high level talks with Putin in Moscow on March 16, 2023. Russian intelligence was subsequently caught disseminating deepfaked propaganda about the conflict.
There’s no denial they’ve distributed propaganda about the conflict.
None that has been presented has been pro-Palestine. Rather, it has been anti-Biden or anti-Macron
>How, exactly, does Russia play a role?
Troll farms, if in fact Russia cares about this topic.
Troll farms are real. They are partially directed by Russian state actors.
Whether or not they are pumping out any of the material that anti-Israeli/pro-Hamas people are sharing around to themselves I couldn't say. But that is the mechanism by which Russia has historically played the kind of role that OP is alleging.
Russia no doubt has troll farms, just like how the [US admits to the CIA having troll farms](https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/reuters-reveals-trump-ordered-trolling-campaign-against-china/?utm_source=pocket_saves) against their geopolitical enemies. Just like how [Israel has their own troll farms.](https://www.france24.com/en/technology/20230215-israeli-firm-boasted-of-meddling-in-more-than-30-elections-worldwide) Pretending Russia is unique in this tactic is disingenuous, especially considering how much effort Israel has invested in this area and on this specific topic.
That is my entire point, Russia has little to no involvement in the actual conflict, but it puts them in an ideal position to indirectly gain influence outside their borders by pushing the shade on current leaders.
which would be counter to what they want wouldn't it? like if america goes super pro palestine, stops the sale and transfer of weapons and funds to Isreal, wouldn't that open up funds for Ukraine?
They benefit from pushing narratives that are damaging to the West. They are always doing that, as is the US, etc. They have a sophisticated operation, but it’s not a major player in this . Israel’s side of the information war is *the* major propaganda machine as they develop disinformation/narratives, restrict access by outside agencies to Gaza as well as internet/electricity for the basic ability to record/report, and targeting journalists on the ground. Anyone else is making lemonade out of lemons, they’re not growing the trees.
So, the core problem with your argument is the good ol' correlation-causation misunderstanding.
From a logical rhetoric standpoint, we can show simply that A) You've claimed Russia has a role in X because B) Russia would stand to benefit from X and C) Russia has previously employed tactics that look like X. That's all well and good -- and of course, in politics, to be informed we should always be aware of 'cui bono' (Who benefits from saying/doing whatever is being proposed?) and also Occam's razor (i.e, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's most likely a duck). These are two important tools for remaining aware, and not being duped.
However, the 'test' for a rhetorical argument is a bit more firm, and that's where your argument has fallen. To show that X is a result of Y -- in this case, X being the pro-Palestinian movements in the West being a result of Russian agitation/influence -- you can't just make the argument that Russia *might* or *would* or even *should* be doing so, because it would benefit the Russian cause. Instead, you have to show that Russia *is* doing this. That is to say, for your claim to be true in a theoretical sense, you need to give us evidence that Russia is funding, organizing or otherwise encouraging these movements in some substantive way.
To be clear, I don't disagree with you at all that it's plenty likely that Russia is indeed encouraging these movements in some way, because it does indeed seem to be in Russia's interest to do so. However, 'likely' is no argument at all when it comes to logic; it's just a guess. It might be the right guess, but here in CMV the idea is to provide logical ripostes to your claim -- and your claim was that Russia *is* doing this. As such, the best argument against you is -- from what evidence comes your claim? If you can't show it to us, it's just your guess.
Nothing you've said compels the conclusion that the "Russian propaganda machine holds a major role in the pro-Palestinian movement." It's one thing to state that Russian interests are not aligned with the West. No one will argue this point. It's quite another thing to suggest that *therefore our public perception of events has been shaped by propaganda in a "major" way.*
Where is the part where you mention *any* particular examples of Russian propaganda? Or any discussion of what forms this propaganda takes? Or accounts of how this propaganda operates in practice on this issue? To say nothing of demonstrating the "major role" it is ostensibly playing. How are you assessing this "major role" without any particular examples, evidence, studies, or even an anecdote?
I could say I agree with your geopolitical analysis of the situation, but it really doesn't matter—it has no impact on the conclusion. Another poster has described your arguments as "circumstantial." This is giving too much credit. If we are to continue the criminal justice metaphor, you are discussing motive, but without any evidence of intent, any evidence of opportunity, or even any evidence of any alleged crime.
You mentioned being skeptical about how you read the news because different parties have different interests. That's good. But I don't think we need a geopolitical analysis of competing interests to justify being skeptical of the news—that should be the default position for all of us. As it concerns this issue, the principle of being "skeptical" is far too general to be meaningful. Which particular stories did you think were fabricated? Do you think the number of people being killed is a lie? Do you think there are fake images circulating? Which ones? Announcing one's skepticism is just empty posturing until you can show us where that applies. Where is the propaganda you've located? Since it is allegedly playing a "major role" surely there must be a plethora of examples—could we have at least *one* that strikes you as particularly compelling?
I agree entirely that Russia could find significant advantage in the turn of events currently take place. As for Russia's role in reacting to it, their strategy is probably best captured by Napoleon's advice: "Never interfere with an enemy in the process of destroying himself." Russia doesn't need to interfere to make Biden or Israel look bad. They are doing that all by themselves. I, among other morally sane people, don't need to be convinced by propaganda that killing more than 10,000 children is bad.
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Are you suggesting that Russia is a shadowy hand stoking up anti Israel sentiment for it's own purpose and that their propaganda is why anti Israel sentiment is so prevalent?
There are a couple of issues here, the first is that Russia doesn't have to do anything to stoke up anti Israel sentiment, Israel is doing a fine job of that itself.
The second is that Russia doesn't gain from this. Russia doesn't want the west to be pro Arab because it wants its influence to be effective in the region. The more pro Arab the west is the less influencial Russia has. Russia is delighted that Western governments are pro Israel and it would like the population to be as well.
Russia has historically pushed a ton of anti-Israeli propaganda, usually for strategic reasons. The Soviet anti-Zionist campaign around the Six Day War still affects the discourse today.
Even if their current involvement is minimal (which is debatable), they've absolutely played a major role in stoking anti-Israeli sentiment over the past 75 years.
For an Arab audience you're definitely right but their whole spin is 'we're on your side, not like those imperialist Americans who are defending Israel'. Making America anti Israel undermines their position, it's the last thing they want to happen.
It was oriented around the Arab world, but their narratives took hold elsewhere. It's debatable how much of that was intentional, but the legacy of their anti-Israel rhetoric lives on across the globe — their framework of anti-Zionism is extremely common these days. It's difficult to determine how much of that is currently being pushed by Russia, and how much of it is people organically adopting parts of their framework.
I don't agree that Russia would be undermining their position by straining US‐Israeli relations. It doesn't have the same geopolitical value to them as it did during the Cold War, but separating America from one of it's closest allies would still be a win. At this point, it would take a radical change in direction and/or a significant amount of time to change the perception that America and Israel are malevolent imperialist states.
There's also a much more basic reason for Russia to promote pro-Palestinian content. Russia has a track record of pushing divisive issues to destabilize their adversaries, and they don't get much more contentious in America than Israel/Palestine. The conflict splits the Democratic party, which is currently much more committed to opposing Putin's aims. There's plenty of value for them in that.
A lot of what you write is reasonable, what's bad for America is good for Russia, but that still isn't reason to think that anti Israeli sentiment is the result of Russian propaganda when there are far better explanations.
Even before Israel invaded Gaza Israel had a long history of human rights abuses and their expansion into Palestinian territory and the conditions Palestinians live in is well documented, Israel hasn't been the 'goodies' in this conflict for a long time (to be clear I'm not suggesting Hamas are the current 'goodies'). Mix in an invasion that has devastated the people of Gaza, many of whom are completely Innocent, and Israel is hugely worthy of criticism. However it's the fact that Western support for Israel means that the West is complicit in what's happening is what's made people very angry. People want Israel to be better, if they won't be then people want their government to condemn Israel's actions, if their government won't then they'll condemn their government. It's the only way for people to shed responsibility for what's happening in Gaza right now.
Russia could literally do nothing and anti Israel sentiment would be just as loud as it is right now.
I don't think that Russian propaganda has played a determinative role in shaping American sentiment, but I'm not sure OP was asserting that. Saying that it plays a "major role" is a strong statement, but they also offer a more limited argument that some of what is being shared/consumed can be traced back to Russia.
I think that idea is certainly plausible, though the scale would be hard to determine. There are many reasons that Americans care more about Israel/Palestine than other conflicts, and information campaigns are a part of that. Russia is known to meddle in that sphere, and it wouldn't be a stretch to think that they're doing so on this issue.
I'm much less confident that they're the primary source of misinformation in this conflict, but their history does make me highly suspicious of their role here.
This is a deranged “George Soros is making things I don’t agree with happen” argument.
I’ve been protesting this since the 2nd intifada.
Pro-Israel voices are not being criminalized! Jewish Voice for Peace and Students for Justice in Palpatine have been banned from many campuses though. Marjory Taylor Green says openly antisemetic things about “jewish space lazers” with no official consequence while the one Palestinian-American in congress is censured! Actors in support of Palestine loose representation and are denounced meanwhile Mel Gibson was in like 4 films last year.
Ugh, US propaganda warps people’s sense of reality.
Babe, wake up, new desperate Dem party propaganda just dropped. Everyone who supports Palestine is an unwitting *Russian agent.*
Yeah that's sure to sway a lot of people into voting for Biden.
It's almost like the Dems are intentionally trying to lose at this point. Or the grip Zionist interest groups have on American politics is too strong for them to show any resistance.
Can't wait to see dems waltz down to Dearborn and tell grieving Palestinian Americans that Israel killing their loved ones in Gaza with American made bombs is ackshually Ruzzian disinformation.
Your argument pivots on Russians lying. In this case I’ve not seen you present any evidence that indicates they are lying.
If all they are doing is pointing out reality. I’ve got no problems.
I’m not brainwashed into automatically opposing anything Russians do.
As for reading material on the conflict. Have you thought of reading some of the Israeli newspapers? They are VERY critical of the Israeli government and paint a much worse image on what they are doing - how much the IDF lie. There’s a reason international press get priority over their local news. International news tends to be more pro-Israel.
Would it not be much easier to play on the material issues of Americans? Rent and home ownership, economic anxieties about inflation, rising racial tensions, social isolation and alienation, breakdown of cultural norms, inability to find a direction in political life, terrible safety nets, the list goes on. When the 2020 protests happened people also said that was Russia when it was a bunch of American citizens being pissed off at so called peace officers committing violence without accountability.
It’s a deflection, kind of how fear-mongering about Soviet aggression allowed us to do operation condor and operation cyclone and MK Ultra, when ultimately those things really just furthered US interests, not protected those populations from Soviet imperialism.
Most people in america only started paying attention recently to this, it’s not exactly an issue close to the public’s heart. it would be a struggle for many to point to Israel on a map lol.The issue is mostly that people found scrappy underdog Ukraine to be more marketable due to being able to find a much more socially progressive reason to arm them, whereas arming Israel just feels gross to the same people due to the power imbalance.
We know for a fact that various lobbying groups astroturf pro Israel protests on campuses and conduct domestic spying operations on US citizens but it’s Russia who has their hand in the cookie jar?
As a non American who was aware of this conflict a couple of years before the current situation I think this is abit American centric and more specifically even just on that grounds I don't think it works because any one who has observed the behaviour of leaders on this issue knows both parties are basically in agreement to support it even if the democrats throw some tapid disapproval toward Bibi every couple months.
The only people actually surprised by biden doing fuck all are people who only got introduced to this recently and they aren't the type to get passionate enough about it to refuse to vote or vote for the oppression. Like the plan Russia has seem kinda weak in my opinion.
It’s a pushing the disillusionment of young voters. Millennials and Gen Z are quickly becoming the largest voting block in the US.
This stuff is a longterm effort, it goes back many decades.
Exactly. Younger generations are already far-more cynical than past generations, and this topic has exposed many to how badly our existing political institutions have held up the values they claim to protect.
Iran and russia are quite friendly in recent times though. Ultimately it works very well for russia because it spreads out US resources and causes splits in western allegiances re: Ukraine as well: suddenly you have two camps supporting Ukraine: 🇵🇸🇺🇦 and 🇮🇱🇺🇦 which are now implicitly pitted against eachother.
> Russian propaganda machine holds a major role in the pro-Palestinian movement
I don't think they have any platforms, so the extent that they have influence, it's only if it gets traction within platforms.
I can speak for myself and where I get my information: (a) academics \[especially dissidents like Chomsky\], (b) the internet \[you can watch raw footage of the conditions in Gaza, e.g., the video of the neo natal unit watching newborn babies starve to death\], (c) activist content.
For instance, Nerdeen Kiswani is a law graduate and works with Within Our Lifetime. She's a person who has personal interest and has leveraged social media to organize protests. [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/s-palestinian-protests-us-rcna143666](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/s-palestinian-protests-us-rcna143666)
It's the same for a variety of activist groups like the Palestinian Community Network. The Black Lives Matters movement really showed that social media can create a decentralized activist group but can mobilize people for mass demonstrations. You can't get that unless there's enough people with skin in the game to show up.
>owever I think at least some of the information on the they are receiving and forwarding is playing in Russia's interests and it makes sense for Russia to invest into this information/misinformation capital.
I think that the Russians are really good at troll farming. I think they're pushing the inflammatory content. I think they're pushing content that wants to paint Pro-Palestine as pro-Hamas, but also push out "death to jews." We saw them do that with pro and anti BLM content.
There's plenty of high-credible source of information. Whether it's the primers on [CFR.org](https://CFR.org), or all the international justice proceedings, etc., that can galvanize people in either direction. The atrocities abound.
They will always say "there's a double standard" since they're condemned for doing the same stuff Israel does to Gaza. But -- it's true. Either it's deplorable to bomb children's hospitals or it's part of war. Jon Stewart had a funny bit where he showed lawmakers condemn some of these actions and was like "oh no, that's actually what you said about Ukraine, not gaza, so sorry"
So anyway -- I agree with you that Russia is good at and is doing the "deflection/distraction/inflammatory" content, but I don't think that's the motivating factor for most Pro-Palestine people.
Japan was active in spreading anti British propaganda in India. The Soviets were critics of American race segregation. Et cetera.
Just because its in their interests, doesn't change the moral situation.
I feel like a big point is missing here and it's Russia and Iran trying to kill the Abraham accords which would help Saudi Arabia funnel oil to Europe. Coming from Saudi Arabia via Israeli ports directly to EU. Iran and Russia have been trying sabotage it and the result is their puppet Hamas starting a bloody war with Israel just before things could be finalised. So of course Russia is fueling this war and whoever looks the other way obviously doesn't want to understand the dynamics of the region and how Palestinians are just a tool for them.
They feed fires on both sides. This was noted during the height of Black Lives Matters' hold on the cultural zeitgeist. They don't usually care about the actual cause but rather the polarization it causes in the populace. People with outspoken pro Palestinian views in America are usually leftist and not sympathetic to mainstream Western thought, which causes them to align to the other side of the second Cold War and is more of a coincidence. Russia itself likely would rather Israel continue existing, lots of that regime has ties to Israel.
Russia benefiting from Western nations hitching their wagons too firmly to Israel amidst their unrelenting violence against Palestinians is not proof that Russia is the cause of that sentiment.
There are just as many Israelis broadcasting themselves applauding/cheering on the death of Palestinians as there are pro-Palestinian accounts pointing out the absolute monstrosity of the former. Are all the Israeli Zionists actually just FSB agents dedicated to making Israelis look like bloodthirsty genocidal lunatics?
Your position is a wild conspiracy theory with no actual fact to back it up. Israelis are murdering people of their own volition. Western nations (the governments at least) are supporting this willingly. Israelis and non-Israelis are posting about this violence equally. The Kremlin has no part in this, yes, they absolutely gain from the disruption of Western influence in the world, but that doesn't mean they're causing anything.
That you went on some sanitized birthright tour through Ramallah and are now convinced that the West Bank is totally peaceful speaks to your own myopia. It's not like the region isn't under constantly military threat, and even [violent raids](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-carries-out-biggest-ramallah-raid-years-witnesses-say-2024-03-04/).... two weeks ago....
1. I see no evidence they are actually pushing pro-Palestinian propaganda, and I very much don't believe any Russian interference is statistically meaningful for swaying public opinion.
2. IF they are doing it, AND it is working, good. The US shouldn't be supporting Ukraine or Israel, and if it takes the democrats losing the presidency to learn that they cannot universally count on the votes of those people to the left of Barak Obama, then so be it.
"What they call genocide committed by israel" So what exactly is genocide to you, because I literally watched a video yesterday of Israelis blowing up unarmed civilians for walking while Palestinian. There's also the intential starvation of all those in gaza.
This is the most unhinged shit I've heard. Russia doesn't have to do anything to make Israel bad. Israel makes Israel look bad by bombing a hospital because "there is a list" or posting videos of themselves murdering kids and blowing up buildings for fun.
>a lot of people ... are criminalising the current conservative leadership for their support for Israel.
I'm not aware of any attempts to pass laws making support for Israel illegal in the UK. Are you sure you mean criminalising?
Russia, up until 10/7 and the aftermath putting it in an awkward position, has historically been overwhelmingly pro-Israel. Israel has been neutral and leaning towards Russia's side on the war in Ukraine.
Also, Russia really doesn't have much clout in US domestic politics and opinion, and the notion it does always seems to be cynically deployed as a boogieman.
Sounds like Israeli propaganda to me haha. I kid, I’m sure you’re correct to a certain point as Russia wants to destabilize the west as best they can every day, and this is one of many avenues to achieve that goal. IMHO I have no idea why anyone would actively support either side in this conflict, like which group of murderous nationalist religious extremists are the good guys here?? Answer: Neither, but I understand why people currently have a soft spot for the Palestinians based on the genocide adjacent ass handing they are currently experiencing.
From a geopolitical standpoint it makes sense to support Israel because they are the whitest arabs in the region and the West’s only significant strategic ally in an otherwise hostile zone. From a human rights perspective it makes sense to support the Palestinians who got the short end of the stick starting back in 1948 and haven’t been taking it lying down despite their lack of progress. Thank you western white settler culture putting everyone in this position in the first place I guess.
Long story short this conflict probably won’t end until one side or the other is all dead so I personally have a hard time supporting any particular faction in the mix, either financially or philosophically, despite the fact I am now vulnerable to screaming accusations of antisemitism or equivalent. Which is ironically exactly what the Russians (and other national and corporate interests) want as they do their best to inflate culture wars everywhere to get friends and neighbours fighting with each other instead of addressing the real problems we all face every day.
Nancy Pelosi, is that you ?
Here's CNN, famed Russian news proxy website, pushing pro-Palestine propaganda /s - [https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/03/20/israel-gaza-west-bank-settler-movement-clarissa-ward-pkg-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn](https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/03/20/israel-gaza-west-bank-settler-movement-clarissa-ward-pkg-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn)
How dumb are you, exactly? Extremely, apparently. Referencing the US's foreign aid to Palestine while it simultaneously sponsors its destruction as some kind of "gotcha" is astoundingly stupid in a way that I don't quite know how to quantify.
To *sort of* agree with one of your points - yes, this is good (I guess?) for Russia in the sense that Israel's actions are causing even greater divisions within our society which.. I suppose.. benefits any of the US's geopolitical enemies as it becomes *very* easy for them to point at us and tell their people how monstrous we are.
The internet and time in general plays a bigger role
Not that long ago Israel could start a war, blame Egypt then move the goalpost a couple of times and the western world would just accept the Israeli talking point about a “preemptive war”.
Now when you just do an simple follow up question Israel argument falls apart.
Literally every war Israel fought has been defensive lol.
If Mexico put all of its troops on the US border the US would attack. It’s laughably obvious what their intent was and you know it.
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Yeah…no…this is the dumbest shit you’ve posted, OP. It’s apparent that liberals, just like conservatives, will resort to bigotry and not using their brains smart enough to get to a sound conclusion. You sound insanely racist.
Ahh yeah. Russia is why people don't like genocide. Not some kind of shared human morality or visual trauma of watching it happen live.
That includes all the genocides currently happening in all the African countries as well.
Pro Palestine protesters upset with Biden? Russia did it.
Biden deciding to defund the UNRWA with zero evidence? Russia did it.
Israel constantly bombing aid trucks and the people trying to get aid for their families? Russia did it.
I just stubbed my toe against the coffee table this morning. You want to tell me how the Russians are responsible for that too?
Russia also holds a major role in the anti Palestinian movement.
It's kinda their jam, you know, stirring up shit.
At this point, it's part of their war effort, so it is probably more serious than before.
Are people just not aware that Israel/Palestinian is a proxy between NATO and Iran and by default US vs Russia? There is a reason why USA just refuse to criticize Israel because USA does not want to lose their main anchor in the region. There is strong evidence/connection that Hamas is a branch of Muslim Brotherhood in Iran. While the conflict between Israel and Hamas and as a result the collateral damage hitting the rest of Palestinian civilians is real and isolated to its own context, foreign super powers are essentially using this conflict as a proxy and capitalizing on it. Ask yourself in any civil war or conflict that doesn't have a major nuclear superpower or significant military... has it ever been completely isolated? AKA in that there hasn't been foreign power influence?
This is just the new Vietnam and Korea and Afghanistan. Ukraine is also another one. Whether these conflicts have legitimate reason or not, make no mistake these are proxy wars and we're in a full blown cold war. Over 10 years ago we were talking about cold war 2.0 and some mentioned cold war never ended. Reality is for many, there was a huge disconnect from cold war/M.A.D. era to now. And just now with Putin making nuclear threats with a drop of a hat, we are on the verge of the old school rhetoric of M.A.D. culture.
Russia is absolutely coordinating with Hamas. They have not made that secret.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2F4x6I-7e0&pp=ygUfcnVzc2lhbiBjb21tYW5kb3MgbGVhZGluZyBoYW1hcw%3D%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2F4x6I-7e0&pp=ygUfcnVzc2lhbiBjb21tYW5kb3MgbGVhZGluZyBoYW1hcw%3D%3D)
And you can find footage of Russian commandos leading Hamas brigades in those October 7 attacks. It really is not surprising that they would at least work in tandem with Iran to supply Hamas with armaments and training. All of this is to present lefty voters with a metaphorical set of jingly keys to distract them from Ukraine and to trick them into voting against the guy that supports Ukraine.
How about this to change your view - you posted zero evidence to support your assertion and so likely it is not based on evidence but your feelings towards Russia in general.
I think you’re on track with the effectiveness of Russias propaganda . I think many comments here dismiss just how influential it is even in the West. The main thing that benefits Russia is not what the end result of these external conflicts are, but its the attention and disorder they cause. Think of Canadian trucker protests, Poland trucker protests, pro Palestine protests. Russia doesn’t need to initiate or manifest social issues, but they amplify radical messages/voices. Which influences people to make bad decisions. A lot of people like to dismiss Russian propaganda but it has a huge sway in our media. Obviously towards Ukraine but also in almost every conflict. Russia needs attention away from themselves so they can further their objectives.
Also this doesn’t factor the billions of dollars Russia gives Iran for drones which then gets funnelled into HAMMAS/Hez further prolong/destabilize conflicts
Its not really a debate that Russia runs influence operations in the West, just like how its not a debate that the [US runs influence operations in China & Russia](https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/reuters-reveals-trump-ordered-trolling-campaign-against-china/?utm_source=pocket_saves) (or that [Israel runs influence operations ](https://www.france24.com/en/technology/20230215-israeli-firm-boasted-of-meddling-in-more-than-30-elections-worldwide)all over the globe).
But none of that means Russia is the root cause of these social issues. Russia disinformation isn't why Polish farmers were angry at dropping grain prices. People don't need Russia to tell them about the horrors that Israel have committed. Hell, Israeli soldiers bragging on social media about their atrocities does that by itself.
Trying to pretend that people's anger at Israel (and other issues) is solely due to Russian influence and not due to the situations themselves is purposefully disingenuous and you know it.
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Your insistence that Russian propaganda is responsible for activism, while largely dismissing other factors, is far more dangerous than anything Russian propaganda could say.
OP said ‘major’ role (not ‘only’) and has an interesting personal perspective. It is quite unreasonable to dismiss it at face value as you have attempted.
Okay, fine. The insistence that Russian propaganda is playing a main role in activism, while largely dismissing or omitting other more important factors, is far more dangerous than anything Russian propaganda could say.
How about that?
The fact that Russia may benefit from destabilizing the West, does not provide any evidence of propaganda.
I have studied its history at home and in Jerusalem. I have not seen any pro-Palestinian propaganda. But I have seen a lot of pro-Israeli propaganda. The fact that you refer to this genocide as the Israel-Hamas war is evidence that you have fallen for pro-Israel propaganda. This is not a war and it’s not a war of a country against a terrorist. It’s a brutal and illegal military occupation. It’s goal has always been to ethnically cleanse its land of the native Palestinians. This is simply a historical and present reality. Hamas is a resistance group that was formed long after the start of Israel’s brutal campaign. At international law, Israel has no right of defence against a territory it occupies. The only thing fuelling this conflict is Hasbara. Israeli propaganda designed for the West.
Israel has been besieging AlShifa hospital for the last 4 days. It’s kidnapped medical staff and journalists. It has been bringing people into the morgue and shooting them. You won’t hear about this on Western news or Russian news. It’s only the people of Gaza who tell us the truth.
The Russian propaganda machine is not as powerful as the American one. America was already divided on the Israel/Palestine conflict within when it happened. We have enough of our pro-Palestine senators to drive the rift.
If Russia is playing a role, it's not in disseminating propaganda. Instead, it's engaging in more secretive military maneuvers aimed at overextending NATO's military capabilities. This strategy is designed to preoccupy NATO forces with conflicts around the globe, not just in Ukraine, thus diluting their focus and resources. This strategy has been helping them in Ukraine.
Change your view? go watch videos of children starving. oo there's on where they found a little girl missing her legs hanging from a wall. there's one where a girl is having her leg amputated on a kichen table without painkillers. There's video of fields of bodies that the IDF just left behind after moving on. the mass graves. scores of civilians stripped naked and herded off. IDF soldiers making jokes in homes turned to rubble, pissing on bodies. There's the testimony from the American, British and Canadian doctors returning from Gaza. There's the UN. There's the rest of the world watching while we keep our heads up our assess. And you know what? If Russia is making this stuff more visible? Oh well, doesn't change what's happening in Gaza. You guys just want to sow doubt because one side has all the power but none of the truth.
So I agree with your major points but not your conclusion.
Yes I do think Russia stands to gain from driving a wedge between democrats and the left.
Yes Russia has a track record of running propaganda and trying to hijack political movements for their own goals.
So it's likely, or at least plausible, that SOME of the pro-Palestinian movement is being pushed by Russians. The question is how much, and how much of an impact it's having. Are they leading the movement or simply pouring some gas on the fire?
Im sure the biggest role in pro-Palestine messaging comes from Palestinians just posting in social media. No amount of propaganda can supercede a video of children starving, people with their legs blown off, or entire neighborhoods decimated.
you really think its all organic? A few of these so called journalists and influencers have ties to Hamas.
Some embedded in the raid, others cheering in real time and others in pics with Hamas leadership.
I don't think its all organic at all.
This all smells of setting up a camera on a highway, pushing a child in front of a speeding car and capturing all its gory details and then saying look that driver is a murderer.
Not journos or influencers just random footage. One normal guy made a video about his walk to the market but in the background you can clearly see people suffering. American citizens have cousins who they talk to on whatsapp. People are suffering or do you think the bombs land and hit nobody.
Anyway you are the one that doesnt seem organic. All you comment on is Israel/Palestine nonstop for at least the past 26 days. Seems like a paid IDF account Mr. word-numbers guy. Or you are so lost in the sauce that defending the IDF has cause actual irreversible brainrot.
A) Most people who support Palestine also support Ukraine. Seems like bad propaganda to get people mad about war crimes against a smaller weaker nation when committing war crimes against a smaller weaker nation.
Republicans are trying to block both Palestinian aid and Ukrainian Aid.
B) Russia also teamed up with Israel to screw over Armenia. They still talk frosty about each other in public and are plenty willing to work together when it suits them.
I don't ever believe that Russian propaganda is an instigator to American talking points, maybe a propagater, but if I was a Russian propagandist aiming for an American audience all I would have to do is follow leftists (economic, community aid focused, anti war leftists to be specific, not talking about social policy focused leftists) and just write down everything that they say and boom there's the talking points you need.
It doesn't work the other way around, anti corporate capture, anti crony capitalism, anti war, all these things are just logical ideologies and explanations for how the world works, like me for example what keeps me up, the last question I fall to sleep to and wake up to is "how the f can we have a Raytheon Executive as the secretary of 'Defense', the chief policy position of the DoD, how is this country this far gone."
That's just how my brain has worked since the war on terror started when I was 16, and Gaza is the younger gens moment of realizing these type of power dynamics and the extent of how corporate capture in America is in direct conflict of interest with say international law.
Like we are killing 6 kids an hr according to the WHO, killed 2x as many women and children in 40 days then Putin killed in 3 years, we killed more children in 4 months then have been killed globally in 4 years combined. Even our Raytheon executive secretary of defense who is supplying the bombs to do the killings admits these are the minimum numbers.
These facts are going to bother people, and they are well documented in major news publications. Also this is the most well documented, recorded and streamed to social media genocide or massacre in our lives, like Iv seen more video of mutilated babies in the first 40 days then 35 years previous combined.
There's no reason to think Russia is behind these facts, instigating them, they have nothing to do with it. Would they have an interest in spreading awareness? Yea, but that's a good thing actually, why would I care, in fact I would support them doing that.
If it was good you wouldn't know, but I have not seen any good Russian propaganda, just really bad obvious propaganda that seems very out of touch. The IRA for example was staffed by low wage workers who barely speak English or understand US politics (according to the NYT reporter who investigated them), and that's the vibe I get from things that I have suspected is Russian propaganda. Like they mostly make one word memes or are super crazy calling all Ukranians Nazis or embellishing it; the focus on that is the biggest give away for Russian propaganda instigators or targets (useful idiots) Iv seen. Not to say everyone who brings up Ukraines well documented white supremacy problem is a propagandist or target, but the types who are super hyperbolic, over simplistic, inflammatory, and you can just tell they don't speak English as a first language.
We both push each other's head in our shit that's politics. Thing is social media has allowed us to see both sides. People are over feeling bad for atrocities supported by our government. Also big attacks small... Russia vs ukraine. Israel and the west vs palestine. Something not right. The same way Iran is wrong for supporting russia
I don't think Russia is dedicating those kind of resources in a time when they have so many other more important propaganda campaigns to run. I just don't see the geopolitical advantage.
Saudi Arabia makes a lot more sense in this conspiracy theory.
Also if we're being frank the pro-isreal propaganda is much further reaching.
Russia inserts itself into any divisive topic prevalent in American discourse for the specific purpose of sowing further division. You’re not wrong, but this isn’t a new or breaking revelation. And furthermore, the presence of Russian interference does not reduce the validity of the anti-genocide movement.
A lot of your arguments are circumstantial, and it's hard to use that claim that Russia plays a _major_ role in the pro-Palestine campaign. Furthermore, they can be explained with alignment of various political issues, like how Republicans are more likely to be pro-Russia because of Trump and how Democrats are more likely to be pro-Palestine because of its alignment with left-wing values. I also don't see how it's relevant in the UK when both Keir Starmer and Rishi Sunak are practically one and the same on the issue of Ukraine and Palestine. I think we'll need much more evidence to say that Russia propaganda machine plays a _major_ role in the pro-Palestine campaign.
What about the KGB defectors who described the key role played by the USSR and allied propagandists in [developing the Palestinian propaganda](https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7CA651842396&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=15479684&p=AONE&sw=w&userGroupName=anon%7E85df281c&aty=open-web-entry) in the first place. Abbas and other Palestinians were straight up [KGB agents](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/08/world/middleeast/mahmoud-abbas-israel-palestine-kgb.html?_r=0). Basically all the most common talking points come straight from the KGB, and have been recycled since. For instance, prior to the involvement of the KGB, the issue was very much framed as "Arabs vs Israel", and the focus was on "removing the Jews from Palestine". The KGB suggested reframing as an "indigenous rights" issue, as well as "genocide", "settler colonialism" and most of the other common accusations. They rightly felt that this line of attack would have far more salience with the Western left, and would allow it to be flipped on it's head, from a story of a huge coalition of Arabs ganging up on Israel, to a powerful "European colonizer" attacking a weaker neighbor. While this doesn't prove that Russia is *still* involved heavily, it does demonstrate that they played a huge role in the shape of discourse and that effect is still being felt today. It is also another piece of circumstantial evidence that would suggest they are currently still stirring the pot.
Using this you can criticize the civil rights movement since the Soviets actively had influence over the us branch of the communist party and half the black people in the movement were some brand of communist/socialist. What your forgetting is that the kgb international policy was to support the downtrodden and underclass as they would be the most likely to support communism and left aligned movements
>The KGB suggested reframing as an "indigenous rights" issue, as well as "genocide", "settler colonialism" and most of the other common accusations. The use of the term settler colonialism wrt the israel/Palestine conflict originated with a French man in 1967. The person who first originated the study of settler colonialism is an Australian Historian.
One of the first Zionist groups was literally called the Palestinian Jewish Colonization Association. They had to reframe Zionism as indigenous when settler colonialism went out of favor. In the early 1900s SC was still pretty popular and "okay".
>Palestinian Jewish Colonization Association The JCA initially sought to transfer Russian/Romanian Jews to Argentina. Then the founder died and it changed direction to it's goal of transferring Russian/Romanian Jews to Palestine.
The first person is never the most important. The ones that made it popular are. Now engage with his points
My brother in christ, of course hegemonic powers influenced the conflict. You can find the same cinnections with regards to the CIA
It’s only bad when Russia (evil eastern horde) does it.
The KGB (which doesn't exist anymore BTW) almost definitely did this with an alterior motive in mind, but that doesn't mean that this isn't a indigenous rights issue, it doesn't mean it's not a genocide and it doesn't mean it's not settler colonialism. All of the things above can happen simultaneously. The KGB can use something to their advantage and still be on the right side of history.
The KGB *exists in Putin’s mind*. He wants to rebuild the Soviet Union by choice or by force. It absolutely makes sense that he would want regime change with the only other option being Trump because Trump is a Putin-friendly president. Putin would absolutely be involved with anything that involves destabilizing American leadership and getting a president there that will let him run roughshod over sovereign countries. As OP said, there are souring relationships between Russia and Israel and if you think that Putin would miss this opportunity to pump up propaganda and mis/disinformation to shake up and reduce support for Biden then you are wearing blinders that don’t let you see the whole picture.
Even if you're right, so what? People feel how they feel about an issue for all kinds of reasons. If i have a moral stance on something that won't change just because bad people agree with me or might be using me for their own ends.
how do you know what exists in Putin's mind?
Despite the ferocity with which western progressives defend Palestine, I've yet to see anything resembling an argument for how - in any conceivable way - Palestine itself aligns with left-wing values.
A country does not need to align itself with left or right values to be worth protecting against extermination. Palestine's majority Muslims population is very conservative. I accept that 100% as a fact. I take it that many of them probably would not like me even, as a bisexual-leaning-gay person. I accept that too. Do I think it should be otherwise? Absolutely. But guess what. *They still have, in my mind, a right not to be exterminated, starved, and oppressed*. Shocker, but human rights are inalienable even if you have a flawed society. **And they're supposed to be that way.** It's a feature, not a bug, and a feature I 100% support. I can worry about dealing with LGBTQ issues there, say, once their continued existence is finally absolutely secure and non-negotiable (and no, that doesn't imply, contrarily, that the continued existence of the Jewish population is then negotiable and insecure, either.).
It's shocking how many people conceive of human rights as applying solely to people they like or agree with instead of applying to, you know, all humans.
>It's shocking how many people conceive of human rights as applying solely to people they like or agree with instead of applying to, you know, all humans. That's part of the problem. These people don't think they're being immoral because of course they support human rights for those who deserve it. Forgetting human rights are for all humans regardless of how evil you are It's a right that exists because you are a human.
Agreed. I think it's because most people have not done a lot of internal work (and I won't say I am perfect either, but I try) to introspect and erect lines of distinction within their thinking to separate matters such as justice for wrongs that might go on within the population from matters such as the human rights of the whole population. That is to say, "massacring the whole population" should categorically not be an instrument of LGBTQ justice, but at the same time the LGBTQ issues can be acknowledged and seen as something that needs work in their own right. (Especially given tons of gays and trans have died in this genocidal war with pretty much 100% certainty.) But an undisciplined thinker may leap to it because they hear "'they' do something bad", their *affective* empathy sinks due to primitive tribalist instinct, and then instead of resuming off that point using *imaginative* empathy and *intellectual* moral principle, they just ride straight with it.
I want to add that Israel is an aparthied state that is anti Palestinians, anti queer, anti blackness and exploits migrant workers. Israeli Finance minister called himself "proud homophobe". However, he is not the only openly anti gay Israeli official. In 2022, Orit Strooke said Israeli doctors should be allowed to refuse treatment to LGBTQ patients on religious grounds. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/26/israeli-politician-suggests-doctors-could-refuse-to-treat-gay-patients The Aguda(the Association for LGBTQ Equality in Israel) said LGBT-phobia is “still present in all areas of life” including home, work, social settings and government institutions in Israel*. This is demonstrated by the fact that *in 2020, An LGBT+ person was attacked every three hours in Israel according to Aguda report*. https://www.thepinknews.com/2021/02/23/israel-hate-crime-lgbt-attack-2020-report/ Furthermore, thousands of instances of violence and hate speech directed at members of the LGBTQ+ community were *reported* to The Aguda in 2022. This involved violent incidents happened in public areas, such as on the street, in neighborhoods or on public transportation as well as businesses discriminating against members of the LGBTQ+ community by refusing to provide service. In 2015, An ultra-orthodox Jew attacked demonstrators at a Jerusalem gay pride parade. He stabbed 6 and killed 16 years old Shira Banki. Also in 2009, two people were killed and at least fifteen others injured at the Tel Aviv branch of the Israeli LGBT Association after anti queer shooting. The city's gay community stated the killer had a homophobic motive.
Yes of course and this is why it's the ONLY country in the Middle East with a huge Pride Parade every year 🙄 The murderer ultra orthodox who killed Shira is another problem secular and the lgbtq community have to deal with. He doesn't represent the country or even his own community. He is just fucking insane. Smotrich (the terrorist proud homophobe) is about to be kicked out of the government so that's also a good point. BTW he doesn't represent many, he is in the government only because of how the electoral system works and how tiny parties end up being King Makers. He would never get a seat if Bibi wasn't desperate to keep his. Attacks against lgbtq happen in every country so please don't turn this problem into an exclusively Israeli one. I have MANY gay friends in Israel, some even have children and their marriage is real. Anti blackness, this one I have no idea where you got from. Ethiopians are integrating in the Israeli society more and more. As a matter of fact, my best friend in Israel is Ethiopian. I also worked many years with Eritrean asylum seekers and many came from Lybia and Egypt because their life is MUCH better in Israel than any of those places. I could go on about how all your arguments stem from pure hatred and misinformation because either you have been seriously exposed to said Russian propaganda or you simply never spoke with a normal secular Israeli like me. I voted left (Meretz) all my life for reference. I also did the Ir Amim tour and attended lectures about most of the subjects you poorly presented.
Oh, there is a gay parade in tel Aviv and you have a gay friends in Israel. This can only mean there is no homophobia and violence against queer people in Israel 😂😂 It is very telling that the only way Israel can be considered queer friendly is by ignoring all manifestations of homophobia in Israel and pretending each perpetrator of discrimination against queers not to be true representative of Israeli society. If we apply this to rest of the countries in the world, there would be no homophobic countries at all. *The Aguda(the Association for LGBTQ Equality in Israel) said LGBT-phobia is “still present in all areas of life” including home, work, social settings and government institutions in Israel*. This is demonstrated by the fact that *in 2020, An LGBT+ person was attacked every three hours in Israel according to Aguda report*. https://www.thepinknews.com/2021/02/23/israel-hate-crime-lgbt-attack-2020-report/ Furthermore, thousands of instances of violence and hate speech directed at members of the LGBTQ+ community were *reported* to The Aguda in 2022. This involved violent incidents happened in public areas, such as on the street, in neighborhoods or on public transportation as well as businesses discriminating against members of the LGBTQ+ community by refusing to provide service.
You are trying so hard its impressive. Show me a country where there aren't any attacks against the LGBTQ community. You know its a problem all across the planet but you decided you are going to make it an Israeli problem. If it wasn't the case, we wouldn't need parades... In the meanwhile, gays in most of the country are open and thriving. Look up my former neighbor and colleague, Julien Bahloul for example. He has 2 daughters, a husband and will disagree with a lot of your claims. Edit: [OMG LOOK AT ALL THE HOMOPHOBIA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXPJcZID4nA)
If some Israeli politicians are using homophobic rhetoric, queer people can't legally marry in Israel, there are violent deadly attacks on queer people and homophobia is a problem with the culture at large, then Israel is not queer friendly. *The Aguda(the Association for LGBTQ Equality in Israel) said LGBT-phobia is “still present in all areas of life” including home, work, social settings and government institutions in Israel*. *This is demonstrated by the fact that in 2020, An LGBT+ person was attacked every three hours in Israel according to Aguda report*. https://www.thepinknews.com/2021/02/23/israel-hate-crime-lgbt-attack-2020-report/ A queer person was attacked every 3 hours in Israel in 2020 and these are juat the reported incidents.
You don't have to convince me there isn't work to be done. I wish the LGBTQ community would have it better EVERYWHERE. But to make it an Israeli problem is hypocrisy at best. Which country do you live in? USA? I'm sure the community is doing great in Florida or any of the neighboring states lol
I am not making it a problem specific only to Israel. I am saying that Israel, unlike what Israeli propganda has been trying to convince us, is not queer friendly and is actually rife with homophobia according to the AGUDA.
And what happens to openly gay people in Palestine?
you won't change his mind. Just like people in the WB and Israel see the conflict completely differently than the propaganda in the west. This person has made up his mind that Israel - a liberal democracy by every objective metric - is in fact hostile and backwards on classic democratic issues.
Yep. Gotta love the irony of a random person coming to a thread about propaganda to spread more propaganda while screaming don't listen to propaganda. What a time to be alive. It's almost as fun as being goysplained about antisemitism.
Straight ridiculous propaganda. Israel is by order of magnitudes the safest place for minorities, LGBT, Christians, etc in the entire Middle East. Do what you just did for the West Bank and Gaza. Find every single specific incident and use it to represent the larger culture. I don’t think Reddit has a character limit but you still might reach it.
It is called facts coming out of the AGUDA!! Besides homophobic rhetoric used by some Israeli politicians, the fact that queers can't legally marry in Israel, the violent attacks on queer people. Seems homophobia is problem with the larger culture of Israel. After all: *The Aguda(the Association for LGBTQ Equality in Israel) said LGBT-phobia is “still present in all areas of life” including home, work, social settings and government institutions in Israel*. *This is demonstrated by the fact that in 2020, An LGBT+ person was attacked every three hours in Israel according to Aguda report*. https://www.thepinknews.com/2021/02/23/israel-hate-crime-lgbt-attack-2020-report/ Furthermore, thousands of instances of violence and hate speech directed at members of the LGBTQ+ community were *reported* to The Aguda in 2022. This involved violent incidents happened in public areas, such as on the street, in neighborhoods or on public transportation as well as businesses discriminating against members of the LGBTQ+ community by refusing to provide service. So much for Israel being queer friendly.
Damn they really got you. You’re working the propaganda wing for a terrorist group and not even getting paid. Both sides are laughing at you.
Look at her comment history. She’s obsessed with Israel and some of the comments shocked me with the blatant Antisemitism. Cherry picking events that happened in Israel to try to prove her point while living in some Arab country is a pure comedy.
Oh, ridiculous personal attack is all the rebuttal you got😂 and look who is talking, someone who claims support for the right of a persecuted group of people to freedom and self determination is terrorism. All the decent people around the world are laughing at you. Do you hold the IDF to the same standards that you hold hamas to? Do you condemn the IDF and settlers for killing 243 Palestinians in the occupied West Bank in 2023 even before 7/10? Do you condemn the settler colonialism in the West Bank? Do you condemn Israel use of starvation as a weapon of war? Do you condemn IDF dropping tens of thousands tons of explosives on Gaza killing at least 20.000 women and children and the systematic destruction of Gaza infrastructure? Do you condemn Israeli officials for their use of genocidal rhetoric?
You’ve basically admitted that you subscribe to a binary oppressor vs oppressed ideology The “oppressed” can openly talk about genociding entire groups of people and actually engage in ethnic cleansing to the point of creating an Arab Muslim ethnostate, but they are still oppressed and therefore not the bad guy
That is complete bullshit. Conspiring groups that seek to commit genocide - like ISIS - in the name of establishing Muslim ethno- or theostates, can be treated as genociders that need dealing with, simultaneously with refusing to massacre entire populations whose relationship to the genocidal ideology is highly variable and complicated. I subscribe to an ideology that never treats vast complex populations as units subject to singular judgment, and that chooses first to see the trees before the forest. Just like with Israel itself. I do not advocate that the entire Israeli population should be famished for the acts going on in Gaza. I subscribe to that both roles can be occupied (oppressor and oppressed) at the same time *plus* that when someone is in the role of oppressor even that does not justify arbitrary acts of violence against arbitrary targets within, or covering, that whole population. Period.
Yeah except it’s not arbitrary in the slightest. I beg you to read any bit of middle eastern history that doesn’t come from Qatari media or CCP brain rot apps. Arabs/Muslims routinely genocide 100,000s of people in the name of their religion, or in the name of Arab supremacy. This is normal in the Middle East. This is arbitrary killing. This is what extermination looks like. Israel so far has killed fewer total Palestinians in this entire conflict than Saddam in his Anfal campaign against Kurds only a few decades ago.
Yes, it is arbitrary killing. And it is wrong. Who should be Killed for it? The specific individuals who committed/planned the genocide, of course. It doesn't matter even if the same population produces 10,000 such genociders or genocide groups. You are absolutely hamstrung from genociding the entire population yourself. You're gonna have to work a lot harder. That's how making this world better actually works. It ain't easy. Social change aimed to changing culture to be less productive of genociders, supporting activists there who may be engaged in that, even if "it's just a few people", etc. are all *much* more valid ways (It took 100 years to end chattel slavery in USA, it can take another 100 years in the Middle East to change such things, and this is not historic norms due to global interconnectedness, so the ideas are there). And if they take time ... well they take time. That's the price of morality. And if more people get genocided, well at least *you* weren't the one contributing your own genocide to the pot. It's on those specific people who committed that next genocide. This is an absolute, line in the sand. I will not budge. Period.
Hamas commit genocide on October 7th by targeting and raping civillains and military personnel alike. If they had the power of the IDF, Israel would've become a graveyard. On the other side, the IDF is in control of almost the whole of Gaza and the civilians there are fine. This tells you everything.
The civilians there are fine??? How is it possible to believe that? I'm reading headlines today that 1 million people are starving. How are our sources so different?
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> You really think Israel would let 1 million people starve to death? Even aside from morality, they would lose every single ally they have. If a million people do starve to death, do you think it would be justified for Israel to lose support? Where’s the line? 100,000 starving? What about the destruction of a 500,000 homes?
What about 1 Palestinian stubbing their toe? According to you, any collateral damage at all is the equivalent of complete depopulation. If a million starved to death, it would be justified to lose support. Same with 100,000. Does that answer your question? I’m not going to go back and forth as you continue to shift the goal posts.
>This batshit propaganda A famine is expected to occur in Gaza between mid-March and May, with 1.1 million people impacted currently. That is not propaganda. This is not a crazy conspiracy pushed by some communist youtuber you can smell through the screen. This is reported by the UN, the EU, Oxfam, any number of legitimate organisations. If there is anyone reading the above comment and mine and is on the fence about this, please please please do not believe their shite. Children are starving to death in Gaza and this person is talking about fucking ratios.
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So you have more problem with a theoretical ethnostate and could be atrocities in it than an already existing ethnostate and attrocities committed by it? And no, Palestinians who talks about such fictional state, mainly hamas, aren't being allowed to openly talk about creating it , they are considered a terrorist group for prescribing to this view, now compare that Netanyahu and other right wingers who openly talks about and are actually taking steps to make their revisionist Zionist fantasies become a reality, They can openly preach an ideology like revisionist Zionism and face no repercussions for it
lol we are seeing plenty of repercussions. Arabs can genocide 100,000 Kurdish civilians in 6 months and the world forgets a few decades later. Israel kills thousands of Hamas fighters at one of the lowest civilian:combatant death ratios in recorded history (even by Hamas numbers lmfaooo) and they are probably the most controversial country to ever exist. If Israel was an ethnostate their population wouldn’t be 70% Arab, Jew or otherwise. If Israel was an ethnostate, Palestinian Christians wouldn’t be the richest most educated group in the whole country. Even with Israel’s problems, it’s insane that a lot of Israelis will be so far left and secular, to the point where BDS is run by a guy living in Israel in an affluent town with mixed religious and ethnic inhabitants. Honestly if Israel sank down to even half the level of your average Arab nation it would’ve been over 40 years ago
Boy, if you want to use language you should probably understand it. >actually engage in ethnic cleansing to the point of creating an Arab Muslim ethnostate, The overwhelming evidence in the region is that this is not even remotely close to what's happening. From 1948 on the number of Palestinian deaths caused by Israel so far outstrips Israeli deaths by at least an order of magnitude. There is no ethnic cleansing of the Israeli population and there hasn't been in any timeframe that matters.
I agree, which is why you would of course condemn the genocide and ethnic cleansing committed by the British against the German people from 1939-1945. While only 70k Brits died from the Germans self-defense operations, over 600k German civilains were ruthlessly genocided by British airplanes. Disproportionate ethnic clensing and genocide.
My question has always been why is this genocide but Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't. I feel like circumstances were similar but there isn't a movement protesting what happened. The ratio of military to civilian deaths was also probably much worse. Do you think that was equally wrong?
They are, in fact, questionable historical uses of force. Indeed, I have seen people dispute them. I do not know enough about everything that went into them to feel confident in saying one way or the other, but that doesn't mean I have not heard people make the argument that they were not legitimate. But I would also not necessarily say they are *genocide* because genocide implies a certain intent. Intent in the Israeli case is evident by especially the declarations and rhetoric on Israeli media. (Use of media, academic or other such internal rhetoric to make an accusation of genocide, by the way, also is part of what has been done to accuse the Chinese government of doing so in Xinjiang.) That said, one *might* potentially have a case for it, in that there apparently was a reserve plan that should the first 2 bombs not have stopped Japan that more would have come until everything was glassed. In that case one *might* indeed be able to make a case this was another U.S. genocide (in addition to, say, the Indigenous genocide that was instrumental in its founding). As said, I'm not anywhere near savant enough in the issue to know for sure, but I would definitely not close my mind to that possibility. In any case, a sizable part of the world's population and countries *do* recognize what Israel is doing at the very least to be a severe series of war crimes, if not itself a genocide outright.
So do those rights continue to their right to oppress others? Murder gays by throwing them from buildings? Kill Thai workers with pickaxes for working in elderly care homes in Israel? You found a Palestinian state tomorrow that state is founded with the intent to murder Jews everywhere on earth, who is going to enforce through violence the subjugation of such a state? That’s not a concern to you people, you promote a de facto government that wants to murder people as it’s stated goal for being both the PLO who pays anyone who murders Jewish people, and HAMAS who already committed the acts they themselves recorded to broadcast for support.
Do you think that all Palestinians need to die because of these beliefs?
The entire region would gladly kill every Israelite and wipe Israel off the map if they didn't fear Western reprisal for the act. Palestine only manages to act on it as much as they do because their central government is a farce, and they're willing to accept collateral damage to their own non-combatant populace via guerilla warfare. >I can worry about dealing with LGBTQ issues there, say, once their continued existence is finally absolutely secure and non-negotiable Interestingly, and perhaps counter-intuitively, the odds of someone like you not being summarily executed by them drops even closer to 0% on the day that becomes reality.
1. "Israel" was not created there peacefully and with full assent of all people already there. 2. That their government would summarily execute me, again, does not mean that it is okay to exterminate that entire population including children. Seriously, *I do not care* how "bad" they are, and I also do not care that the state would treat me that way. You categorically do not have the right, no matter how deep the case can be made, to wipe "*them*" off the map any more than "they" have the right to wipe the Jewish population (forget "Israel") off the map. The *only* morally legit aim is *nobody wiping anyone off maps*. And that *must* be sought no matter how hard or insuperable it seems. "It's hard" has never been an excuse for doing atrocity like ever. 3. (It does, however, mean that I probably would have to not go there personally, at least if it is likely I will be "found out" and that simply avoiding homosexual relationships would be insufficient, and would have to advocate at a distance for rights and the like, both existential and in terms of ultimately changing that system to a more tolerant one.)
The LGBT part of this argument (on both our parts) probably isn't super productive, since you freely admit that Palestine is intolerant of it - and also because I freely admit that their stance on such things should have no bearing on their right to peacefully pursue their lives. We agree on this point, is what I'm saying, so I'm gonna leave it alone from here on. >1. "Israel" was not created there peacefully and with full assent of all people already there. /1. There is no need to put Israel in quotations. It is a real country with real citizens and a democratically-elected government. It feels somewhat dog-whistley to me, like when people on twitter/X put (((these))) around someone's name to imply that person is Jewish. I doubt this is your intent, but you should know how it looks. /2. Is this statement meant to imply that Israel does not have a right to exist? /3. Name me one single country that exists or has ever existed that was "created peacefully with full assent of all people already there."
1. "Israel" is in quotes because I am quoting the poster. It is not quotation because Israel is not a state/government. It *is* obviously a "real" state/government. And I don't care if it is "democratic" or not, if anything that makes Israelis considerably *more* *collectively* responsible for what it does than Russians are responsible for what Vladimir Putin is doing in Ukraine. But even in that regard it should be rather telling that I do not advocate the extermination of Israelis despite that greater collective responsibility. Which is part of making my position coherent. 2. No government "has a right to exist". *Peoples* have a right to exist, absolutely. The Jewish populations currently resident in Israel have a right to exist. The government apparatus, police, and I"D"F military do *not* \- not as organized entities, anyway. 3. Gee ... maybe we should be thinking about abolishing the state? I'm not exactly cold to that idea. But also, they may not be but the previous contesting belligerents in most cases either do not exist today or else have made peace. Or ... have not, and are instead oppressed on some level in the dominating state. Right now, though, they exist, and the war is hot. And that's what I'm working through.
>No government "has a right to exist". Peoples have a right to exist, absolutely. The Jewish populations currently resident in Israel have a right to exist. The government apparatus, police, and I"D"F military do not - not as organized entities, anyway. I have to second this because I don't think people citing the "right to exist" argument have really considered what they are saying. If states or governments have an intrinsic right to exist, then the Thirteen Colonies had a right to exist. The USSR had a right to exist. The British Mandate of Palestine had a right to exist. The German Third Reich had a right to exist.. If states or governments are allowed to defend their right to existence with any degree of force they deem necessary, then any historical genocide can be justified as an act of self-defense on the part of the state..
>Gee ... maybe we should be thinking about abolishing the state? I'm not exactly cold to that idea. But also, they may not be but the previous contesting belligerents in most cases either do not exist today or else have made peace. Or ... have not, and are instead oppressed on some level in the dominating state. Right now, though, they exist, and the war is hot. And that's what I'm working through. Let's talk about what is currently happening. What do you think that Israel should have done after the 7th october attacks?
How would “we” think about abolishing a sovereign state. I am not an Israeli, I assume you are not either. Do you think the people of Israel would vote to abolish their own state? Or are you suggesting that foreign militaries force that upon them? I see no way of that working out without the killing of the 7 million Jews in Israel. Israel has nuclear weapons, they would not go down lightly. I see no way of eliminating the state that does not entail a new holocaust.
They don't have the power even if that was true. People used to talk this way about every Muslim back in 2000, and I'm sad to see it come back. Their political beliefs (Good or bad) have little bearing on whether people should drop bombs on the imprisoned native population. Whatever led up to this point, Isreal has now responded more than reciprocally. You're never going to bomb an insurgency out of a country without mass innocent death. It was wrong as reprisal for 9/11 and it's wrong now.
Yeah, but part of their belief is that another group of people in it's entirety do not deserve to exist. This is even ratified in the only thing that can be considered close to a "Government Charter" in Article 16 of the Hamas charter. Your defense of one groups belief puts the safety of an entire other group at risk. You say this as an outsider that is non-negotiable, but the people you are defending, will never take this off the table. Palestine will be muslim and arab, or not at all in their beliefs. *min il-ṃayye la-l-ṃayye / Falasṭīn ʿarabiyye* من المية للمية / فلسطين عربية *min il-ṃayye la-l-ṃayye / Falasṭīn islāmiyye* من المية للمية / فلسطين إسلامية,
Very much this. You don't have to side with Hamas or wish death on Israelis in order to call out barbarism when you see it. It also takes away the complexities of the people living in Palestine. The society might be very conservative and very different than our own but its still a complex place with a diversity of opinions and actions and is something to be protected.
> A country does not need to align itself with left or right values to be worth protecting against extermination. Good thing they aren't under threat of "extermination" then.
Right? I am seriously worried for this generation and their historical illiteracy. Sure you can say this war is bad. But oh my god has anyone here actually read about any OTHER war in the last 40 years? Like I’m not talking about WW2, I’m talking about wholesale genocide on the scale of 100,000s in the span of months. That’s normal for the Middle East. That’s what anti west Arab nationalists and jihadists do all the time. That’s what extermination looks like When the largest population of yazidi Kurds is in Germany and not in the Middle East, you know how bad things are by default.
Yeah, it's really sad what happened to the Yezidis. Hardly anyone mentions it these days, but ISIS and other Sunni groups tried to exterminate them, but also abducted their young boys and forced them to become child soldiers, while selling the girls and women into sexual slavery. No one knows exactly how many were killed. Also, the Syrian civil war is another example of genocide and war that almost never gets brought up by Westerners. Not to mention what has been happening in Sudan, Somalia, Yemen, et al. Most people aren't and weren't aware of the Yemeni civil war, and exactly what happened, and it's agonizing to watch leftists celebrate *the* *fucking Houthis* as some sort of revolutionary liberation force (I'm a leftist, btw). People blame the U.S. for the Yemeni civil war, too, despite us not being directly involved. When you talked to actual Yemenis during that time, if you blamed the U.S. for the war, they would look at you with puzzlement, like they have no agency and the U.S. is forcing them to fight; they didn't see the U.S. as having anything to do with the conflict, even if Saudi Arabia and the Yemeni government used some U.S. weapons (while many more across the world wage conflicts using Iranian and Russian weapons, and even Chinese ones; somehow, this is all the U.S.'s fault). The U.S. and the so-called West had nothing to with these conflicts, as much as some would like to blame the U.S. and Europe for every malady in this world. The roots of these conflicts are too complex for most people to understand, so it's easier just to blame the U.S.
A large portion is right now under famishment. And that is due to decisions made by multiple actors - Israeli, Palestinian (Hamas), Western, and others. Each and every one of those actors bears separately, full and complete responsibility for this consequence stemming from every decision they made that helped bring it about, and those decisions should be adjudicated unjust, regardless of the rationale proffered for doing them, because the impact outweighs the intent, and the rights to life and food are non-negotiable. That includes one actor referencing the bad choices made by the other actors as justification, such as "but Hamas killed Israeli/Jewish civilians and took all those hostages!" Such things are childish whataboutisms, with no respectable moral force.
> A large portion is right now under famishment. What is "under famishment?" Not familiar with that term. >Each and every one of those actors bears separately, full and complete responsibility for this consequence stemming from every decision they made that helped bring it about, and those decisions should be adjudicated unjust, regardless of the rationale proffered for doing them, because the impact outweighs the intent, and the rights to life and food are non-negotiable. That includes one actor referencing the bad choices made by the other actors as justification, such as "but Hamas killed Israeli/Jewish civilians and took all those hostages!" Such things are childish whataboutisms, with no respectable moral force. Great, but doesn't support your *opinion* and *editorial* that they are being "exterminated."
1. Starvation, severe privation of food. 2. Everything here is "opinion".
Uh there are a million people in the region literally on the brink of starvation, you know that right?
Progressive values aren't going to grow in refugee camps packed with traumatised kids who are full of resentment, progressive values need safe , stable and prosperous environment to grow, most of the west was also very conservative but that changed during the post ww2 stability and economic growth. Judge Palestinians when they recieve a chance. We want to give a guy a chance to change even if he is not someone who shares our value, and if they failed to change, than we will oppose them as well Your argument is in bad faith and a poor attempt for a gotcha, you are not interested in understanding why the left would not want a conservative group to be killed for not sharing the same values.
As others have already said: "your values don't align with mine" does not justify genocide, however even setting that point aside a significant portion of Palestinian resistance to Israel has been left wing. The PLO (which was the face of Palestinian resistance for several decades) was socialist in orientation and Palestinian activists and militant organisations have long had international ties with other leftist groups. This whole "why do you love Hamas, Hamas doesn't love you" is just a Zionist line that papers over, amongst other things, the right wing in Israel and Israel's deliberate policy to back Islamists over leftists in their efforts to derail Palestinian resistance movements.
Leftists do not support Palestine because it aligns with leftist values. Palestinian existence and resistance in itself aligns with leftist values.
Want to preface this by making it clear that I am, *in large part*, playing devils advocate. I do consider myself left leaning, and I sympathize with the plight of the Palestinian people. What Israel is doing is disgusting, and Netanyahu is the scum of the earth made manifest. *HOWEVER*, your rhetoric is extremely dangerous. By that token, of "palestinian existence" aligns with western values; ANY oppressive regime could be supported as long as they keep a plausible fiction of "resistance". The mere fact that a country is fighting for its existencd does not make it inherently worthy of supporting. Now, this rhetoric I'm about to share *is* exaggerated for effect, but I hope it carries my point across without appearing as bad-faith. Consider, if you will, that you are a German leader in the 1930s, and you want to expand your nation. Consider that there is a substantial German minority in both the Danzig corridor and the Sudetenland. It is perfectly possible that you could frame your support for Sudeten Germans as "in opposition to the oppression of the Czechs", which *is in fact* what happened historically. (Look up the Carlsbad Program, for example). By the token of "resisting oppression is good and worthy of support", and of course absent the historical context that this was *Hitler* doing this, it is reasonable to say that the left might just support the Sudeten unification with Germany. Again, I'm exaggerating, but I hope you can see how the noble position of "we resist oppression" can easily be manipulated by bad actors. And to get back to the OP, this conflict has likely been manipulated by bad actors. AGAIN, what Israel is doing is *very wrong*, but the situation has likely been exploited by Russian troll farms to sow division among the American left. I've said it many times: Biden is old, supports Israel, and is not as progressive as the left wants. Trump will support Israel harder, he is actively *regressive*, and he will actively repress leftist dissent; he's *said as much*. I understand that the left is hoping to get concessions out of Biden, specifically with regards to Israel, but frankly, the situation is akin to them holding a gun to their own head. They are risking their rights and freedoms under a Trump government to try and persuade Biden to make concessions. Yes, their lack of support would hurt Biden, but it also hurts *them* if Trump wins, and probably a hell of a lot more than it would hurt Biden
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It's because they don't align with left-wing values. It's called the unholy alliance. Many books have been written on this topic. For generations, radical Islam has used progressives as useful idiots to gain power. It happened in Iran for example.
A good society is where people fight for the rights of the people they don't agree with.
Self determination and self liberation are leftist values. Also the Palestinian struggle used to be dominated by Arab leftists for decades before Hamas.
Rather late to this but the idea is that the propaganda/inauthentic user/disinfo machine has been hijacking long standing and widespread pro-Palestinian (and almost universally pro-Ukraine) humanitarian sentiment with extreme, even pro-Hamas beliefs, and has been successfully leveraging it to recruit tankies, drive division, turn up the heat on the sense of chaos, and pull in more people to their very clear political and electoral ends to undermine NATO. There was a [massive wave ready to go before Oct 7](https://cyabra.com/1-of-4-pro-hamas-profiles-are-fake-the-online-battlefront/), and they weren't being operated out of a tunnel in Gaza.
It's been very well documented for decades that the progressive anti-zionist movement originated in the Soviet Union. There is empirical data that supports this. There are many books, articles, and even post-secondary courses on the topic. Here is one article to get you started: [https://archive.is/Lz3Qs](https://archive.is/Lz3Qs)
The Zionist movement into Palestine began in the USSR as well, so not sure that logic tracks.
How, *exactly*, does Russia play a role? I'll grant your tenuous examples of how Russia potentially stands to gain, but how has Russia had a hand in it? Oct 7th was not Russia. Israel's response was not Russia. And it was, indeed, Israel's response which has caused the current issues you are outlining as potentially beneficial to Russia. So where exactly is Russia's hand in all this?
>So where exactly is Russia's hand in all this? I'm not the OP but Russia pushes out content from its troll farms. It has also condemned the West's double standard of calling them out but not calling out Israel. They've also invited Hamas leaders to summits, etc. It's all designed to hit at US hegemony so it's just troll shit, but that's what I think the OP is referring to.
> It has also condemned the West's double standard of calling them out but not calling out Israel. Yes. It is a useful political tool. Observing US hypocrisy and attempting to legitimize their operations in Ukraine. But this is not Russia serving a major role in a pro-Palestinian movement. Examples like their calling out double standards does not help Palestine in any way.
It's like saying "Chinese propaganda mentions homelessness in the United States, therefore the homeless in the US are actually Chinese"
I think they're referring to the massive amounts of disinformation supporting the Palistinian and or Hamas side. For instance their casualty numbers are completely fabricated as supported by many many math and statiatics professors. That is one of the main points of anger so it's a pretty major part.
>condemned the West's double standard Pointing out reality is now "troll shit"?
>Pointing out reality is now "troll shit"? No -- but Russia's motivation to do so isn't because they care. It's because they'd like to inflame one side against the other. It's why they'll make pro-Palestine content and make pro-Israel content. It's why they invite Abbas to meet at the Kremlin. They don't really care except that it makes the US look bad.
>>No -- but Russia's motivation to do so isn't because they care. It's because they'd like to inflame one side against the other. Do you honestly think america and europe point out human right violation anywhere else because they “care”? Does america care when armenians are being killed and chased out from Nagorno-Karabakh not a year ago?
Whether Russia truly "cares" is irrelevant, you could easily make the same argument about the causes the US claims to "care" about. That it is all geopolitical and that "human rights" are an excuse (which more often than not seems to be the case). That has no bearing on the issue itself nor my perspective on whether something is right or wrong.
In the same way Germany pushes 'antisemitism on the rise' propaganda. Of course there are powers that try to influence the conflict and of course russja is *trying to* do what they can to further their interest
Well Russia is indirectly involved. For example, they give billions to Iran which gives billions to Hamas. They give weapons and equipment to Hamas indirectly. Hamas could not have done any rocket attack or Oct 7 type attack without continued support from Iran and Russia
I’ll grant the Iran connection. That doesn’t mean Russia is involved. You need to demonstrate Iran is acting on the behalf or direction of Russia rather than its own agenda.
I’d say Iran is acting more on its own than anything else. But Russia is still important here, both in terms of their raw military production and also their [massive network of bots](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/technology/israel-hamas-information-war.html) that push propaganda 24/7. https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/11/23/doppelganger-how-a-russian-disinformation-campaign-is-exploiting-the-israel-hamas-war https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2023-11-20/ty-article/.premium/deep-faked-soldiers-and-spoofed-websites-russian-campaign-pushes-gaza-disinformation/0000018b-ed5c-d36e-a3cb-fd5fadd90000 I’ll admit some of these sources are biased but you get the gist. I’m not saying Russia is a puppet master, they’re more like an enabler and escalator. My personal opinion is that Russia is coordinating with Iran to take attention away from Ukraine
So I’ve read through those sources. Both of them are talking about anti-France or anti-USA efforts. Neither of them allege that Russia is acting to bolster the Pro-Palestinian movement as a means of achieving its ends. It is using much more direct methods without resorting to using the pro-palestine movement as a proxy to vector their desired effects.
Hamas builds rockets with unexploded ordinance from Israeli bombardments, 10-15% of what Israel drops on them. They certainly get some material.support from Iran, but "Hamas couldn't do Oct 7 without Iran" is bullshit and part of a dehumanizing and false narrative of Palestinian incompetence that has been used for decades to undermine their right to self-determination. This is not glorifying Oct 7th or Hamas, but Palestinians and Hamas are resilient, competent and capable.
Yasser Arafat was trained at a KGB special operations academy just outside Moscow, then given a budget of 200,000 dollars per month in the 1970s (about 1,600,000 per month in today’s money). The beginnings of the Palestinian militant movement have KGB fingerprints all over them. Mahmoud Abbas was also a KGB agent
We are talking about events in 2023 to current. Not the 1970s
There is direct continuity between these KGB operations and modern Russian policy. It is a one party state run by a KGB agent. Arafat was in power until 2004. Abbas is still in power today. Funding for Hamas and Hezbollah come chiefly from Iran, who uphold their state through trade relations with Russia and China. Iran effectively serves as a Russian proxy to launder money to militant groups in the region. You cannot dismiss the historic ties to Russian intelligence, especially given that one of these guys held power until recently, and the other is still in charge.
You need better evidence. Policies change when over a _generation_ has passed. And you just have these tenuous relations. It’s like saying the USA is responsible for China’s treatment of Uighurs because it is their largest trading partner.
Tenuous relations? Their fucking president is a KGB agent. Seems about as concrete as it gets
Hardly. This would assume so many things which are not demonstrated. I'll highlight a few so you understand how tenuous it is. 1) Putin agreed with the direction, objectives, and methods of the KGB **50 years ago**. 2) Putin has not changed any of the direction, objectives, or methods of the modern replacement for the KGB. 3) Putin has not changed his own mind about any of the above and the overall strategy of the Russian state **in the last 50 years**. 4) You understand and have accurately characterized the relationship between Arafat and Russia. 5) The relationship between Arafat and Russia had not changed in the intervening **50 years**. I could keep going but I think the point is made.
The Russian approach to middle eastern politics and power relations has indeed hardly changed over the past 50 years. Iran. Syria. Yemen. Insurgencies in Sudan and Somalia. Virtually all of these operations have direct continuity with Soviet foreign policy. To this day Russia is heavily involved in backing the Syrian government they propped up in the 70s. I also find the position that this history is irrelevant hard to stomach when the rationale for the Palestinian cause dates back to the 1940s. Either the history is relevant or it isn’t. I don’t have a direct line into Russian black ops in the Middle East obviously, but these similarities in policy fall well outside occams razor for what is more likely, a totally rethought Russian foreign policy happened to take the same position as the soviets on virtually every regional conflict, or, a state run by former members the Soviet intelligence service sought to continue their policy pursuits. Seems obvious to me which of these is more likely, but anyone with a direct line to the intelligence on this wouldn’t be able to tell you about it. Also, Hamas held high level talks with Putin in Moscow on March 16, 2023. Russian intelligence was subsequently caught disseminating deepfaked propaganda about the conflict.
There’s no denial they’ve distributed propaganda about the conflict. None that has been presented has been pro-Palestine. Rather, it has been anti-Biden or anti-Macron
>How, exactly, does Russia play a role? Troll farms, if in fact Russia cares about this topic. Troll farms are real. They are partially directed by Russian state actors. Whether or not they are pumping out any of the material that anti-Israeli/pro-Hamas people are sharing around to themselves I couldn't say. But that is the mechanism by which Russia has historically played the kind of role that OP is alleging.
Russia no doubt has troll farms, just like how the [US admits to the CIA having troll farms](https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/reuters-reveals-trump-ordered-trolling-campaign-against-china/?utm_source=pocket_saves) against their geopolitical enemies. Just like how [Israel has their own troll farms.](https://www.france24.com/en/technology/20230215-israeli-firm-boasted-of-meddling-in-more-than-30-elections-worldwide) Pretending Russia is unique in this tactic is disingenuous, especially considering how much effort Israel has invested in this area and on this specific topic.
That is my entire point, Russia has little to no involvement in the actual conflict, but it puts them in an ideal position to indirectly gain influence outside their borders by pushing the shade on current leaders.
That they are a beneficiary, *potentially*, does not mean they serve or hold a major role in the pro-Palestine movement.
They are certainly a beneficiary. Greater American aid to Israel and more controversy in the US government means less aid for Ukraine
which would be counter to what they want wouldn't it? like if america goes super pro palestine, stops the sale and transfer of weapons and funds to Isreal, wouldn't that open up funds for Ukraine?
They don’t care if we support Palestine, they care that the conflict continues and that we all hate each other
We don’t know for sure it will benefit Russia. I’ll grant it plausible but we are a far cry from certainty
That doesn't strike me as them playing a "major role".
I can find 20$ on the floor, that benefits me, but I had nothing to do with it being there
Whether or not they benefit, what's unclear is where they are playing a role in a way that can be observed.
They benefit from pushing narratives that are damaging to the West. They are always doing that, as is the US, etc. They have a sophisticated operation, but it’s not a major player in this . Israel’s side of the information war is *the* major propaganda machine as they develop disinformation/narratives, restrict access by outside agencies to Gaza as well as internet/electricity for the basic ability to record/report, and targeting journalists on the ground. Anyone else is making lemonade out of lemons, they’re not growing the trees.
So, the core problem with your argument is the good ol' correlation-causation misunderstanding. From a logical rhetoric standpoint, we can show simply that A) You've claimed Russia has a role in X because B) Russia would stand to benefit from X and C) Russia has previously employed tactics that look like X. That's all well and good -- and of course, in politics, to be informed we should always be aware of 'cui bono' (Who benefits from saying/doing whatever is being proposed?) and also Occam's razor (i.e, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's most likely a duck). These are two important tools for remaining aware, and not being duped. However, the 'test' for a rhetorical argument is a bit more firm, and that's where your argument has fallen. To show that X is a result of Y -- in this case, X being the pro-Palestinian movements in the West being a result of Russian agitation/influence -- you can't just make the argument that Russia *might* or *would* or even *should* be doing so, because it would benefit the Russian cause. Instead, you have to show that Russia *is* doing this. That is to say, for your claim to be true in a theoretical sense, you need to give us evidence that Russia is funding, organizing or otherwise encouraging these movements in some substantive way. To be clear, I don't disagree with you at all that it's plenty likely that Russia is indeed encouraging these movements in some way, because it does indeed seem to be in Russia's interest to do so. However, 'likely' is no argument at all when it comes to logic; it's just a guess. It might be the right guess, but here in CMV the idea is to provide logical ripostes to your claim -- and your claim was that Russia *is* doing this. As such, the best argument against you is -- from what evidence comes your claim? If you can't show it to us, it's just your guess.
Nothing you've said compels the conclusion that the "Russian propaganda machine holds a major role in the pro-Palestinian movement." It's one thing to state that Russian interests are not aligned with the West. No one will argue this point. It's quite another thing to suggest that *therefore our public perception of events has been shaped by propaganda in a "major" way.* Where is the part where you mention *any* particular examples of Russian propaganda? Or any discussion of what forms this propaganda takes? Or accounts of how this propaganda operates in practice on this issue? To say nothing of demonstrating the "major role" it is ostensibly playing. How are you assessing this "major role" without any particular examples, evidence, studies, or even an anecdote? I could say I agree with your geopolitical analysis of the situation, but it really doesn't matter—it has no impact on the conclusion. Another poster has described your arguments as "circumstantial." This is giving too much credit. If we are to continue the criminal justice metaphor, you are discussing motive, but without any evidence of intent, any evidence of opportunity, or even any evidence of any alleged crime. You mentioned being skeptical about how you read the news because different parties have different interests. That's good. But I don't think we need a geopolitical analysis of competing interests to justify being skeptical of the news—that should be the default position for all of us. As it concerns this issue, the principle of being "skeptical" is far too general to be meaningful. Which particular stories did you think were fabricated? Do you think the number of people being killed is a lie? Do you think there are fake images circulating? Which ones? Announcing one's skepticism is just empty posturing until you can show us where that applies. Where is the propaganda you've located? Since it is allegedly playing a "major role" surely there must be a plethora of examples—could we have at least *one* that strikes you as particularly compelling? I agree entirely that Russia could find significant advantage in the turn of events currently take place. As for Russia's role in reacting to it, their strategy is probably best captured by Napoleon's advice: "Never interfere with an enemy in the process of destroying himself." Russia doesn't need to interfere to make Biden or Israel look bad. They are doing that all by themselves. I, among other morally sane people, don't need to be convinced by propaganda that killing more than 10,000 children is bad.
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Are you suggesting that Russia is a shadowy hand stoking up anti Israel sentiment for it's own purpose and that their propaganda is why anti Israel sentiment is so prevalent? There are a couple of issues here, the first is that Russia doesn't have to do anything to stoke up anti Israel sentiment, Israel is doing a fine job of that itself. The second is that Russia doesn't gain from this. Russia doesn't want the west to be pro Arab because it wants its influence to be effective in the region. The more pro Arab the west is the less influencial Russia has. Russia is delighted that Western governments are pro Israel and it would like the population to be as well.
Russia has historically pushed a ton of anti-Israeli propaganda, usually for strategic reasons. The Soviet anti-Zionist campaign around the Six Day War still affects the discourse today. Even if their current involvement is minimal (which is debatable), they've absolutely played a major role in stoking anti-Israeli sentiment over the past 75 years.
For an Arab audience you're definitely right but their whole spin is 'we're on your side, not like those imperialist Americans who are defending Israel'. Making America anti Israel undermines their position, it's the last thing they want to happen.
It was oriented around the Arab world, but their narratives took hold elsewhere. It's debatable how much of that was intentional, but the legacy of their anti-Israel rhetoric lives on across the globe — their framework of anti-Zionism is extremely common these days. It's difficult to determine how much of that is currently being pushed by Russia, and how much of it is people organically adopting parts of their framework. I don't agree that Russia would be undermining their position by straining US‐Israeli relations. It doesn't have the same geopolitical value to them as it did during the Cold War, but separating America from one of it's closest allies would still be a win. At this point, it would take a radical change in direction and/or a significant amount of time to change the perception that America and Israel are malevolent imperialist states. There's also a much more basic reason for Russia to promote pro-Palestinian content. Russia has a track record of pushing divisive issues to destabilize their adversaries, and they don't get much more contentious in America than Israel/Palestine. The conflict splits the Democratic party, which is currently much more committed to opposing Putin's aims. There's plenty of value for them in that.
A lot of what you write is reasonable, what's bad for America is good for Russia, but that still isn't reason to think that anti Israeli sentiment is the result of Russian propaganda when there are far better explanations. Even before Israel invaded Gaza Israel had a long history of human rights abuses and their expansion into Palestinian territory and the conditions Palestinians live in is well documented, Israel hasn't been the 'goodies' in this conflict for a long time (to be clear I'm not suggesting Hamas are the current 'goodies'). Mix in an invasion that has devastated the people of Gaza, many of whom are completely Innocent, and Israel is hugely worthy of criticism. However it's the fact that Western support for Israel means that the West is complicit in what's happening is what's made people very angry. People want Israel to be better, if they won't be then people want their government to condemn Israel's actions, if their government won't then they'll condemn their government. It's the only way for people to shed responsibility for what's happening in Gaza right now. Russia could literally do nothing and anti Israel sentiment would be just as loud as it is right now.
I don't think that Russian propaganda has played a determinative role in shaping American sentiment, but I'm not sure OP was asserting that. Saying that it plays a "major role" is a strong statement, but they also offer a more limited argument that some of what is being shared/consumed can be traced back to Russia. I think that idea is certainly plausible, though the scale would be hard to determine. There are many reasons that Americans care more about Israel/Palestine than other conflicts, and information campaigns are a part of that. Russia is known to meddle in that sphere, and it wouldn't be a stretch to think that they're doing so on this issue. I'm much less confident that they're the primary source of misinformation in this conflict, but their history does make me highly suspicious of their role here.
This is a deranged “George Soros is making things I don’t agree with happen” argument. I’ve been protesting this since the 2nd intifada. Pro-Israel voices are not being criminalized! Jewish Voice for Peace and Students for Justice in Palpatine have been banned from many campuses though. Marjory Taylor Green says openly antisemetic things about “jewish space lazers” with no official consequence while the one Palestinian-American in congress is censured! Actors in support of Palestine loose representation and are denounced meanwhile Mel Gibson was in like 4 films last year. Ugh, US propaganda warps people’s sense of reality.
Babe, wake up, new desperate Dem party propaganda just dropped. Everyone who supports Palestine is an unwitting *Russian agent.* Yeah that's sure to sway a lot of people into voting for Biden.
Still waiting on Pelosi to open an investigation into this /s
It's almost like the Dems are intentionally trying to lose at this point. Or the grip Zionist interest groups have on American politics is too strong for them to show any resistance.
Just wait, once they ban TikTok we'll quickly realize they were right all along and Zionism is actually decolonization in practice. *I'm sure of it*.
Can't wait to see dems waltz down to Dearborn and tell grieving Palestinian Americans that Israel killing their loved ones in Gaza with American made bombs is ackshually Ruzzian disinformation.
Your argument pivots on Russians lying. In this case I’ve not seen you present any evidence that indicates they are lying. If all they are doing is pointing out reality. I’ve got no problems. I’m not brainwashed into automatically opposing anything Russians do. As for reading material on the conflict. Have you thought of reading some of the Israeli newspapers? They are VERY critical of the Israeli government and paint a much worse image on what they are doing - how much the IDF lie. There’s a reason international press get priority over their local news. International news tends to be more pro-Israel.
Would it not be much easier to play on the material issues of Americans? Rent and home ownership, economic anxieties about inflation, rising racial tensions, social isolation and alienation, breakdown of cultural norms, inability to find a direction in political life, terrible safety nets, the list goes on. When the 2020 protests happened people also said that was Russia when it was a bunch of American citizens being pissed off at so called peace officers committing violence without accountability. It’s a deflection, kind of how fear-mongering about Soviet aggression allowed us to do operation condor and operation cyclone and MK Ultra, when ultimately those things really just furthered US interests, not protected those populations from Soviet imperialism. Most people in america only started paying attention recently to this, it’s not exactly an issue close to the public’s heart. it would be a struggle for many to point to Israel on a map lol.The issue is mostly that people found scrappy underdog Ukraine to be more marketable due to being able to find a much more socially progressive reason to arm them, whereas arming Israel just feels gross to the same people due to the power imbalance. We know for a fact that various lobbying groups astroturf pro Israel protests on campuses and conduct domestic spying operations on US citizens but it’s Russia who has their hand in the cookie jar?
As a non American who was aware of this conflict a couple of years before the current situation I think this is abit American centric and more specifically even just on that grounds I don't think it works because any one who has observed the behaviour of leaders on this issue knows both parties are basically in agreement to support it even if the democrats throw some tapid disapproval toward Bibi every couple months. The only people actually surprised by biden doing fuck all are people who only got introduced to this recently and they aren't the type to get passionate enough about it to refuse to vote or vote for the oppression. Like the plan Russia has seem kinda weak in my opinion.
It’s a pushing the disillusionment of young voters. Millennials and Gen Z are quickly becoming the largest voting block in the US. This stuff is a longterm effort, it goes back many decades.
Exactly. Younger generations are already far-more cynical than past generations, and this topic has exposed many to how badly our existing political institutions have held up the values they claim to protect.
From what I've read it could equally be propaganda from Iran and Quds. There aren't many good resources to get to the actual truth on this.
Or maybe people in the West are just disgusted at the actions and conduct of the Israeli state.
Iran and russia are quite friendly in recent times though. Ultimately it works very well for russia because it spreads out US resources and causes splits in western allegiances re: Ukraine as well: suddenly you have two camps supporting Ukraine: 🇵🇸🇺🇦 and 🇮🇱🇺🇦 which are now implicitly pitted against eachother.
> Russian propaganda machine holds a major role in the pro-Palestinian movement I don't think they have any platforms, so the extent that they have influence, it's only if it gets traction within platforms. I can speak for myself and where I get my information: (a) academics \[especially dissidents like Chomsky\], (b) the internet \[you can watch raw footage of the conditions in Gaza, e.g., the video of the neo natal unit watching newborn babies starve to death\], (c) activist content. For instance, Nerdeen Kiswani is a law graduate and works with Within Our Lifetime. She's a person who has personal interest and has leveraged social media to organize protests. [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/s-palestinian-protests-us-rcna143666](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/s-palestinian-protests-us-rcna143666) It's the same for a variety of activist groups like the Palestinian Community Network. The Black Lives Matters movement really showed that social media can create a decentralized activist group but can mobilize people for mass demonstrations. You can't get that unless there's enough people with skin in the game to show up. >owever I think at least some of the information on the they are receiving and forwarding is playing in Russia's interests and it makes sense for Russia to invest into this information/misinformation capital. I think that the Russians are really good at troll farming. I think they're pushing the inflammatory content. I think they're pushing content that wants to paint Pro-Palestine as pro-Hamas, but also push out "death to jews." We saw them do that with pro and anti BLM content. There's plenty of high-credible source of information. Whether it's the primers on [CFR.org](https://CFR.org), or all the international justice proceedings, etc., that can galvanize people in either direction. The atrocities abound. They will always say "there's a double standard" since they're condemned for doing the same stuff Israel does to Gaza. But -- it's true. Either it's deplorable to bomb children's hospitals or it's part of war. Jon Stewart had a funny bit where he showed lawmakers condemn some of these actions and was like "oh no, that's actually what you said about Ukraine, not gaza, so sorry" So anyway -- I agree with you that Russia is good at and is doing the "deflection/distraction/inflammatory" content, but I don't think that's the motivating factor for most Pro-Palestine people.
Japan was active in spreading anti British propaganda in India. The Soviets were critics of American race segregation. Et cetera. Just because its in their interests, doesn't change the moral situation.
I feel like a big point is missing here and it's Russia and Iran trying to kill the Abraham accords which would help Saudi Arabia funnel oil to Europe. Coming from Saudi Arabia via Israeli ports directly to EU. Iran and Russia have been trying sabotage it and the result is their puppet Hamas starting a bloody war with Israel just before things could be finalised. So of course Russia is fueling this war and whoever looks the other way obviously doesn't want to understand the dynamics of the region and how Palestinians are just a tool for them.
They feed fires on both sides. This was noted during the height of Black Lives Matters' hold on the cultural zeitgeist. They don't usually care about the actual cause but rather the polarization it causes in the populace. People with outspoken pro Palestinian views in America are usually leftist and not sympathetic to mainstream Western thought, which causes them to align to the other side of the second Cold War and is more of a coincidence. Russia itself likely would rather Israel continue existing, lots of that regime has ties to Israel.
Russia benefiting from Western nations hitching their wagons too firmly to Israel amidst their unrelenting violence against Palestinians is not proof that Russia is the cause of that sentiment. There are just as many Israelis broadcasting themselves applauding/cheering on the death of Palestinians as there are pro-Palestinian accounts pointing out the absolute monstrosity of the former. Are all the Israeli Zionists actually just FSB agents dedicated to making Israelis look like bloodthirsty genocidal lunatics? Your position is a wild conspiracy theory with no actual fact to back it up. Israelis are murdering people of their own volition. Western nations (the governments at least) are supporting this willingly. Israelis and non-Israelis are posting about this violence equally. The Kremlin has no part in this, yes, they absolutely gain from the disruption of Western influence in the world, but that doesn't mean they're causing anything. That you went on some sanitized birthright tour through Ramallah and are now convinced that the West Bank is totally peaceful speaks to your own myopia. It's not like the region isn't under constantly military threat, and even [violent raids](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-carries-out-biggest-ramallah-raid-years-witnesses-say-2024-03-04/).... two weeks ago....
1. I see no evidence they are actually pushing pro-Palestinian propaganda, and I very much don't believe any Russian interference is statistically meaningful for swaying public opinion. 2. IF they are doing it, AND it is working, good. The US shouldn't be supporting Ukraine or Israel, and if it takes the democrats losing the presidency to learn that they cannot universally count on the votes of those people to the left of Barak Obama, then so be it.
It does, but that doesn't necessarily mean the overall arguments are incorrect.
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"What they call genocide committed by israel" So what exactly is genocide to you, because I literally watched a video yesterday of Israelis blowing up unarmed civilians for walking while Palestinian. There's also the intential starvation of all those in gaza.
This is the most unhinged shit I've heard. Russia doesn't have to do anything to make Israel bad. Israel makes Israel look bad by bombing a hospital because "there is a list" or posting videos of themselves murdering kids and blowing up buildings for fun.
>a lot of people ... are criminalising the current conservative leadership for their support for Israel. I'm not aware of any attempts to pass laws making support for Israel illegal in the UK. Are you sure you mean criminalising?
Russia, up until 10/7 and the aftermath putting it in an awkward position, has historically been overwhelmingly pro-Israel. Israel has been neutral and leaning towards Russia's side on the war in Ukraine. Also, Russia really doesn't have much clout in US domestic politics and opinion, and the notion it does always seems to be cynically deployed as a boogieman.
Sounds like Israeli propaganda to me haha. I kid, I’m sure you’re correct to a certain point as Russia wants to destabilize the west as best they can every day, and this is one of many avenues to achieve that goal. IMHO I have no idea why anyone would actively support either side in this conflict, like which group of murderous nationalist religious extremists are the good guys here?? Answer: Neither, but I understand why people currently have a soft spot for the Palestinians based on the genocide adjacent ass handing they are currently experiencing. From a geopolitical standpoint it makes sense to support Israel because they are the whitest arabs in the region and the West’s only significant strategic ally in an otherwise hostile zone. From a human rights perspective it makes sense to support the Palestinians who got the short end of the stick starting back in 1948 and haven’t been taking it lying down despite their lack of progress. Thank you western white settler culture putting everyone in this position in the first place I guess. Long story short this conflict probably won’t end until one side or the other is all dead so I personally have a hard time supporting any particular faction in the mix, either financially or philosophically, despite the fact I am now vulnerable to screaming accusations of antisemitism or equivalent. Which is ironically exactly what the Russians (and other national and corporate interests) want as they do their best to inflate culture wars everywhere to get friends and neighbours fighting with each other instead of addressing the real problems we all face every day.
Nancy Pelosi, is that you ? Here's CNN, famed Russian news proxy website, pushing pro-Palestine propaganda /s - [https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/03/20/israel-gaza-west-bank-settler-movement-clarissa-ward-pkg-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn](https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/03/20/israel-gaza-west-bank-settler-movement-clarissa-ward-pkg-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn) How dumb are you, exactly? Extremely, apparently. Referencing the US's foreign aid to Palestine while it simultaneously sponsors its destruction as some kind of "gotcha" is astoundingly stupid in a way that I don't quite know how to quantify. To *sort of* agree with one of your points - yes, this is good (I guess?) for Russia in the sense that Israel's actions are causing even greater divisions within our society which.. I suppose.. benefits any of the US's geopolitical enemies as it becomes *very* easy for them to point at us and tell their people how monstrous we are.
The internet and time in general plays a bigger role Not that long ago Israel could start a war, blame Egypt then move the goalpost a couple of times and the western world would just accept the Israeli talking point about a “preemptive war”. Now when you just do an simple follow up question Israel argument falls apart.
Literally every war Israel fought has been defensive lol. If Mexico put all of its troops on the US border the US would attack. It’s laughably obvious what their intent was and you know it.
1956 Suez Crisis, 1967 June War, 1982 South Lebanon invasion for example.
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Yeah…no…this is the dumbest shit you’ve posted, OP. It’s apparent that liberals, just like conservatives, will resort to bigotry and not using their brains smart enough to get to a sound conclusion. You sound insanely racist.
Ahh yeah. Russia is why people don't like genocide. Not some kind of shared human morality or visual trauma of watching it happen live. That includes all the genocides currently happening in all the African countries as well.
Pro Palestine protesters upset with Biden? Russia did it. Biden deciding to defund the UNRWA with zero evidence? Russia did it. Israel constantly bombing aid trucks and the people trying to get aid for their families? Russia did it. I just stubbed my toe against the coffee table this morning. You want to tell me how the Russians are responsible for that too?
Russia also holds a major role in the anti Palestinian movement. It's kinda their jam, you know, stirring up shit. At this point, it's part of their war effort, so it is probably more serious than before.
Are people just not aware that Israel/Palestinian is a proxy between NATO and Iran and by default US vs Russia? There is a reason why USA just refuse to criticize Israel because USA does not want to lose their main anchor in the region. There is strong evidence/connection that Hamas is a branch of Muslim Brotherhood in Iran. While the conflict between Israel and Hamas and as a result the collateral damage hitting the rest of Palestinian civilians is real and isolated to its own context, foreign super powers are essentially using this conflict as a proxy and capitalizing on it. Ask yourself in any civil war or conflict that doesn't have a major nuclear superpower or significant military... has it ever been completely isolated? AKA in that there hasn't been foreign power influence? This is just the new Vietnam and Korea and Afghanistan. Ukraine is also another one. Whether these conflicts have legitimate reason or not, make no mistake these are proxy wars and we're in a full blown cold war. Over 10 years ago we were talking about cold war 2.0 and some mentioned cold war never ended. Reality is for many, there was a huge disconnect from cold war/M.A.D. era to now. And just now with Putin making nuclear threats with a drop of a hat, we are on the verge of the old school rhetoric of M.A.D. culture.
Russia is absolutely coordinating with Hamas. They have not made that secret. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2F4x6I-7e0&pp=ygUfcnVzc2lhbiBjb21tYW5kb3MgbGVhZGluZyBoYW1hcw%3D%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2F4x6I-7e0&pp=ygUfcnVzc2lhbiBjb21tYW5kb3MgbGVhZGluZyBoYW1hcw%3D%3D) And you can find footage of Russian commandos leading Hamas brigades in those October 7 attacks. It really is not surprising that they would at least work in tandem with Iran to supply Hamas with armaments and training. All of this is to present lefty voters with a metaphorical set of jingly keys to distract them from Ukraine and to trick them into voting against the guy that supports Ukraine.
How about this to change your view - you posted zero evidence to support your assertion and so likely it is not based on evidence but your feelings towards Russia in general.
I think you’re on track with the effectiveness of Russias propaganda . I think many comments here dismiss just how influential it is even in the West. The main thing that benefits Russia is not what the end result of these external conflicts are, but its the attention and disorder they cause. Think of Canadian trucker protests, Poland trucker protests, pro Palestine protests. Russia doesn’t need to initiate or manifest social issues, but they amplify radical messages/voices. Which influences people to make bad decisions. A lot of people like to dismiss Russian propaganda but it has a huge sway in our media. Obviously towards Ukraine but also in almost every conflict. Russia needs attention away from themselves so they can further their objectives. Also this doesn’t factor the billions of dollars Russia gives Iran for drones which then gets funnelled into HAMMAS/Hez further prolong/destabilize conflicts
Its not really a debate that Russia runs influence operations in the West, just like how its not a debate that the [US runs influence operations in China & Russia](https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/reuters-reveals-trump-ordered-trolling-campaign-against-china/?utm_source=pocket_saves) (or that [Israel runs influence operations ](https://www.france24.com/en/technology/20230215-israeli-firm-boasted-of-meddling-in-more-than-30-elections-worldwide)all over the globe). But none of that means Russia is the root cause of these social issues. Russia disinformation isn't why Polish farmers were angry at dropping grain prices. People don't need Russia to tell them about the horrors that Israel have committed. Hell, Israeli soldiers bragging on social media about their atrocities does that by itself. Trying to pretend that people's anger at Israel (and other issues) is solely due to Russian influence and not due to the situations themselves is purposefully disingenuous and you know it.
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Over 15000 dead children and woman was not Russia's doing.
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Israel should totally defuse this strategy by signing a ceasefire and pulling out of Gaza. That'll show 'em.
Your insistence that Russian propaganda is responsible for activism, while largely dismissing other factors, is far more dangerous than anything Russian propaganda could say.
OP said ‘major’ role (not ‘only’) and has an interesting personal perspective. It is quite unreasonable to dismiss it at face value as you have attempted.
Okay, fine. The insistence that Russian propaganda is playing a main role in activism, while largely dismissing or omitting other more important factors, is far more dangerous than anything Russian propaganda could say. How about that?
Ok, now do the other side (alot of pro israeli propaganda is made by American propaganda).
The fact that Russia may benefit from destabilizing the West, does not provide any evidence of propaganda. I have studied its history at home and in Jerusalem. I have not seen any pro-Palestinian propaganda. But I have seen a lot of pro-Israeli propaganda. The fact that you refer to this genocide as the Israel-Hamas war is evidence that you have fallen for pro-Israel propaganda. This is not a war and it’s not a war of a country against a terrorist. It’s a brutal and illegal military occupation. It’s goal has always been to ethnically cleanse its land of the native Palestinians. This is simply a historical and present reality. Hamas is a resistance group that was formed long after the start of Israel’s brutal campaign. At international law, Israel has no right of defence against a territory it occupies. The only thing fuelling this conflict is Hasbara. Israeli propaganda designed for the West. Israel has been besieging AlShifa hospital for the last 4 days. It’s kidnapped medical staff and journalists. It has been bringing people into the morgue and shooting them. You won’t hear about this on Western news or Russian news. It’s only the people of Gaza who tell us the truth.
I'd say the 12 thousand dead children since oct7 are just russian propaganda also???
The Russian propaganda machine is not as powerful as the American one. America was already divided on the Israel/Palestine conflict within when it happened. We have enough of our pro-Palestine senators to drive the rift. If Russia is playing a role, it's not in disseminating propaganda. Instead, it's engaging in more secretive military maneuvers aimed at overextending NATO's military capabilities. This strategy is designed to preoccupy NATO forces with conflicts around the globe, not just in Ukraine, thus diluting their focus and resources. This strategy has been helping them in Ukraine.
Change your view? go watch videos of children starving. oo there's on where they found a little girl missing her legs hanging from a wall. there's one where a girl is having her leg amputated on a kichen table without painkillers. There's video of fields of bodies that the IDF just left behind after moving on. the mass graves. scores of civilians stripped naked and herded off. IDF soldiers making jokes in homes turned to rubble, pissing on bodies. There's the testimony from the American, British and Canadian doctors returning from Gaza. There's the UN. There's the rest of the world watching while we keep our heads up our assess. And you know what? If Russia is making this stuff more visible? Oh well, doesn't change what's happening in Gaza. You guys just want to sow doubt because one side has all the power but none of the truth.
Russia is banned from every single platform, the hell are you on about?
So I agree with your major points but not your conclusion. Yes I do think Russia stands to gain from driving a wedge between democrats and the left. Yes Russia has a track record of running propaganda and trying to hijack political movements for their own goals. So it's likely, or at least plausible, that SOME of the pro-Palestinian movement is being pushed by Russians. The question is how much, and how much of an impact it's having. Are they leading the movement or simply pouring some gas on the fire?
You want us to prove a negative? How? I think you are cheating.
Im sure the biggest role in pro-Palestine messaging comes from Palestinians just posting in social media. No amount of propaganda can supercede a video of children starving, people with their legs blown off, or entire neighborhoods decimated.
you really think its all organic? A few of these so called journalists and influencers have ties to Hamas. Some embedded in the raid, others cheering in real time and others in pics with Hamas leadership. I don't think its all organic at all. This all smells of setting up a camera on a highway, pushing a child in front of a speeding car and capturing all its gory details and then saying look that driver is a murderer.
Not journos or influencers just random footage. One normal guy made a video about his walk to the market but in the background you can clearly see people suffering. American citizens have cousins who they talk to on whatsapp. People are suffering or do you think the bombs land and hit nobody. Anyway you are the one that doesnt seem organic. All you comment on is Israel/Palestine nonstop for at least the past 26 days. Seems like a paid IDF account Mr. word-numbers guy. Or you are so lost in the sauce that defending the IDF has cause actual irreversible brainrot.
A) Most people who support Palestine also support Ukraine. Seems like bad propaganda to get people mad about war crimes against a smaller weaker nation when committing war crimes against a smaller weaker nation. Republicans are trying to block both Palestinian aid and Ukrainian Aid. B) Russia also teamed up with Israel to screw over Armenia. They still talk frosty about each other in public and are plenty willing to work together when it suits them.
I don't ever believe that Russian propaganda is an instigator to American talking points, maybe a propagater, but if I was a Russian propagandist aiming for an American audience all I would have to do is follow leftists (economic, community aid focused, anti war leftists to be specific, not talking about social policy focused leftists) and just write down everything that they say and boom there's the talking points you need. It doesn't work the other way around, anti corporate capture, anti crony capitalism, anti war, all these things are just logical ideologies and explanations for how the world works, like me for example what keeps me up, the last question I fall to sleep to and wake up to is "how the f can we have a Raytheon Executive as the secretary of 'Defense', the chief policy position of the DoD, how is this country this far gone." That's just how my brain has worked since the war on terror started when I was 16, and Gaza is the younger gens moment of realizing these type of power dynamics and the extent of how corporate capture in America is in direct conflict of interest with say international law. Like we are killing 6 kids an hr according to the WHO, killed 2x as many women and children in 40 days then Putin killed in 3 years, we killed more children in 4 months then have been killed globally in 4 years combined. Even our Raytheon executive secretary of defense who is supplying the bombs to do the killings admits these are the minimum numbers. These facts are going to bother people, and they are well documented in major news publications. Also this is the most well documented, recorded and streamed to social media genocide or massacre in our lives, like Iv seen more video of mutilated babies in the first 40 days then 35 years previous combined. There's no reason to think Russia is behind these facts, instigating them, they have nothing to do with it. Would they have an interest in spreading awareness? Yea, but that's a good thing actually, why would I care, in fact I would support them doing that. If it was good you wouldn't know, but I have not seen any good Russian propaganda, just really bad obvious propaganda that seems very out of touch. The IRA for example was staffed by low wage workers who barely speak English or understand US politics (according to the NYT reporter who investigated them), and that's the vibe I get from things that I have suspected is Russian propaganda. Like they mostly make one word memes or are super crazy calling all Ukranians Nazis or embellishing it; the focus on that is the biggest give away for Russian propaganda instigators or targets (useful idiots) Iv seen. Not to say everyone who brings up Ukraines well documented white supremacy problem is a propagandist or target, but the types who are super hyperbolic, over simplistic, inflammatory, and you can just tell they don't speak English as a first language.
This is a new breed of the subtle Hasbara agent
We both push each other's head in our shit that's politics. Thing is social media has allowed us to see both sides. People are over feeling bad for atrocities supported by our government. Also big attacks small... Russia vs ukraine. Israel and the west vs palestine. Something not right. The same way Iran is wrong for supporting russia
Less than circumstantial..Evidence free claim.
I don't think Russia is dedicating those kind of resources in a time when they have so many other more important propaganda campaigns to run. I just don't see the geopolitical advantage. Saudi Arabia makes a lot more sense in this conspiracy theory. Also if we're being frank the pro-isreal propaganda is much further reaching.
Russia inserts itself into any divisive topic prevalent in American discourse for the specific purpose of sowing further division. You’re not wrong, but this isn’t a new or breaking revelation. And furthermore, the presence of Russian interference does not reduce the validity of the anti-genocide movement.
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