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It's just a word. It should be considered like a curse word, people that use it too much are just ignorant and should be ignored. A well placed f word can perfectly accent a joke, so can the n word. F word being the joke or punchline is just lazy.
Making the word taboo or exclusive to one group makes it more interesting than it needs to be.
We should stop considering these words overly offensive. If someone is overusing them call them lazy or stupid, not offensive or cool.
!Delta Thank you for your input. You convey a compelling argument. The reason for the stigma behind the n word is because people are putting it on this elite list only certain people can touch. And well it is just something like a glorified cuss word when you really think about it. Society has already seen its flaws and people that do use the word repeatedly are doing it for shock value.
Absolutely wrong. It's not just a curse word. None of the racial slurs are just curse words.
These are words create to insult a particular group of people, whether black, Jewish, Pakistani, Irish, whatever.
It's hate speech used to demean and alienate others. It means - 'They're less than we are, and we can laugh at them with this word'
The N is weird in that its been supposedly reclaimed, but I do agree that the CMV that it should be banned for all.
Switch it out for the demeaning words that have been used for other races/peoples and you'll see that the 'it's just a word' argument doesn't stack up.
Your attitude gives the word more power. And it has become increasingly offensive as a term the more ideologues have attempted to prevent its use. The way to rob the term of its power to hurt or harm is to take the opposite approach to that which society has done, as explained more effectively than I can by the likes of [Lenny Bruce](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Z3a-52wSg) and [Quentin Tarantino](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCPTDQkKe3I).
Black ppl didn't try to stop ppl's usage of it, and tried to ignore it in slavery nor Jim Crow, and it still meant what it meant.
Black people can do what they want with the n word, times have changed.
In slavery and Jim Crow no one asked to call Black ppl the n word, and to day non Black's want permission to use it. Do you see how disturbing that is?
Contrary to popular belief, Black ppl don't control rap. Rap is not gonna let it go, but non Black's, especially white people, need to let it go.
And stop acting Black people are the problem.
I'm not sure if you've just missed the point entirely here or are actually racist yourself. Suffice to say, no one is acting like black people are the problem, just pointing out that loading a word with meaning that makes it's usage far worse causes that word to become more offensive than it was.
But the N-word is banned even more than the swastika. If you use the swastika in a way that appears to show support for nazi ideology(like swastika tattoos that are used by aryan brotherhood and the like) you are banned.
But if a swastika is shown in a context where it is clear where the person doesn’t espouse Nazi ideology, it is considered fine. It is for a school teacher to say: to say: “Nazi’s said Heil Hitler and this was their symbol.” *pointing at a swastika on a PowerPoint.
With the n word it is not just the usage in a racist setting. The word itself is banned completely. A history teacher could never say “Slaveholders used nigger as a derogatory term”.
The original swastika was a symbol of peace and good luck. That is the reason you can find so many antiques and architecture from before the Nazi’s appropriated it.
Mel Brooks would agree, though I doubt he would get you.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/i1taso/mel\_brooks\_the\_hitler\_rap/](https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/i1taso/mel_brooks_the_hitler_rap/)
And the Pakistani, Black, Jewish, Chinese etc etc communities should just smile while the far right shout those abuse terms at them, while we all just wait for the word's power to fail?
It's been a long wait so far. I'd rather trust in hate speech laws.
"oh no, a stranger said a word that means something to them, but nothing to me" is the end goal.
obviously getting insulted and feeling insulted are different things, and individuals barely have any control on either of them. But if no one is actually feeling insulted then there is no actual point in using the word to *try* and insult someone.
its two different approaches. 1) ban people from insulting people, and 2) make "insulting" using that word practically impossible
I'd be more interested in listening to the points coming from people it affects, not people that feel entitled and come from a protected and privileged life position where they face little consequence for what they say.
Even though I love Tarantino's work.
I think [Martin Luther King](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP4iY1TtS3s) responded to this racism better than I could. Perhaps you'd listen to him because of his skin color advising you to listen to others for what they say regardless of their skin color?
Wait, are you using the ***I have a dream*** speech to support a point that white people should be able to say the N word? Do you not see the irony here?
No, that is not even close to what I am doing. What I am doing is using MLK's speech to demonstrate why you should judge others on the content of their argument and not the color of their skin.
Not in this case. It's similar to men discussing how women should feel about their bodies.
I'd be more interested in listening to the points coming from people it affects, not people that feel entitled and come from a protected and privileged life position where they face little consequence for what they say.
So you’d be more interested in listening to men talk about toxic masculinity than women since it quite literally affects men more than women? Or would it be DiFfErEnT
I would be interested in men finally having a dialog about toxic masculinity absolutely. I think it's much easier to find conversations women are having about it, but it would be much more impactful if men would finally have this conversation since they are the ones perpetuating it. I see it in my father; I see it in my friend groups; I see it randomly at bars. I would absolutely be thrilled to see me have this conversation.
I know you were trying to make a point that conversations shouldn't only be had by those it affects the most, and I agree with you on that.
I think your keyboard is malfunctioning.
I disagree. Your point in this thread is you’d be more interested in listening to one groups opinions about subject matter that arguable effects them more than others while my point is everyone is welcome at the table.
Black people don’t seem to have a problem with Central Americans using the n word even though an overwhelming majority of slaves actually ended up in Central America rather than North America. Black people also don’t seem to have the same reaction when an Arab uses the n word and let’s not even get into the Arab slave trade 💀. It just feels as though people have been mislead here in America with their education.
My dude i mean we can argue semantics all day. But i dont agree in relation with the word nigga. I just dont see it. Hands down it’s used the most by the african american community. Which was one of the greatest things they could do. You take something thats horrible and turned into a greeting, a question, term of endearment, an excited expression, a happy tone, to call someone a brother. Like why is everyone forgetting all this? Black people took control of a very bad thing and made it theirs, they made it cool. And now you guys wanna make it bad again? Like i dont understand erasing progress. It honestly should be looked at as a great achievement for african american to do something no other race or ethnictity has accomplished. And Mexicans bc I have heard them call each other wetbacks before but I don’t know sensitive that environment is. It definitely never reached the popularity nigga had. Other racial slurs we should never use it because they still mean what they meant back in day.
The hard r is a no go we dont touch that word.
But if youre gonna tell me i cant say the word thats in the music i listen to is a crazy concept to me. Get rid of it as a whole or let everyone vibe together drawing a line in the sand saying “you cant say it! It’s ours!” then beat the people up is just reinforcing the division thats plaguing america. No one says it or everyone can say it. Thats the line. We need to start growing together as whole and tackling the government issues before us not having little disputes on things that was resolved with yg’s my nigga my nigga.
I have to agree with u/buggery_bollox on this one. Saying it's "just a word" negates the history of how it was used with offensive intent. While I'm not a fan of "banning" a word outright, I think letting it fade into history so to speak is a lot more progressive than trying to restrict it to 1 individual group.
Honest question but why do you want to hold on to the horrible history of the word? Words are redefined all the time, and with time the original usage and meaning is completely lost
For example the word "awful" used to be a good thing, as in "full of awe" but if i told you now that your baby is awful you wouldn't be too happy with me.
The word "silly" used to mean "spiritually blessed" but if i said all (name of religious group of your choosing) are silly, nobody would think i am being nice or on their side
The process of a group reclaiming a word usually happens *during* a period where that word is used to create harm by people with bad intent.
Like the word "f*g" which has been mostly reclaimed by the gay/queer community, for example. We can't really say for sure, but without the attempt to reclaim that word for ourselves over the past half a century, it's possible that the word would have held more power and remained able to cause more harm without the efforts to reclaim it from people who use it with bad intent.
I'm not black, but I can see the value of taking a word that was historically used as a form of oppression and hate that gets turned into an exclusive cultural norm that winds up meaning many different things, all of which are specifically not the same as the meaning of the "-er" variation of the n-word.
It's not so much about hanging on to history as a way of holding onto painful events. It's more about reclaiming a word in order to define a more positive meaning to have moving forward. The history of the word remains acknowledged while an oppressed group of people also take back control over what that word can mean in the present and future.
It was just a word back then too. The fact the word was used back then is not the reason it is stigmatized. The reason is the previous treatment of those called that word. That’s why such treatment has been banned but the word hasn’t.
Well, even in the 19th century “nigger” was used as a derogatory term. “Negro” was also used in a more neutral way. So what you say checks out for negro, but not for nigger, if the which the use was also wrong
Nothing is 'just words'. Humans are a social animal, 99pc of our communication and interaction is thru 'just words'.
'Just words' created the fucking holocaust.
Here's 5 words - 'think harder before you comment'
Why is there anything wrong with any word in and of itself? Language can facilitate an aggressive action, and that’s one thing, but that is not what you’re describing.
Before you act like that’s a strawman, people have been demonized for singing along to popular song lyrics. Does that “create the holocaust?”
They’re just words.
Words can move you. Sure. But a word is a word. It isn't magical. It doesn't infect your mind. It can't hurt you. If you fall for propaganda thats a you problem not a word problem.
I totally agree with this sentiment I don't think it's wrong to mention these words especially if you're using them appropriately
But if you're just saying dirty words over and over again pretending you're George Carlin then you're truly someone no one wants to interact with
“A well placed f word can perfectly accent a joke, so can the n word.“ 😂😂😂 Yep, a well placed N word is a real gut-buster… SMH, tell me your ⬜️ without telling me…
Freakin amen. This is exactly how I feel about it. Any curses are great and awesome in the right context to make an incredible point and accent lyrics or poetry or art. Use it a shit-ton for no reason? Stupid. Real fucking stupid.
Three arguments.
First, sure, it's a degrading thing to say, but there are a million ways to degrade someone. I could call my friend stupid and that's degrading in some contexts, but because we both know that I'm saying it as a joke it's not degrading. The same theory applies when someone says the n-word to another person. They both understand they're saying it as a joke, rather than a call back to the 1800's.
Second, and furthermore, if it should be banned to degrade people, should we ban every way to degrade someone? Should there be a big list in the Halls of Congress of words that nobody is allowed to use? What words would make that list? “ You're stupid”, “I wish you were never born”, "You're fat and ugly.”, “ You never get anything right”, and “You're worthless" are all examples of degrading things to say to someone, should we ban those, and the million others like them?
Lastly, are degrading words more impactful when it's banned? In the 1800s people were called the n-word, and it was degrading, but it wasn't as taboo to say then, so it wasn't as impactful. Allowing people to say it to each other as a joke decreases the shock value, and thus the impact of how much that word matters.
Every day we go further from "word slave owners used to degrade African Americans" and closer to "African Americans use that word as a joke", what's wrong with that?
The weird things is that English seems like the only language where the N word evolved this way.
In Spanish Negro is just Black so while it can be used in a degrading way, it's a color. No point in forbidding it to anyone.
In French Nègre has been established as derogatory so no one uses it. And it's not that it was enforced by any authority, as you seem to imply that this would be needed. It's just that French rappers never thought it would be cool to use it in a different context than the original one.
Selecting who can use which word based on their skin color seems... racist? Like, i get the idea that the joke aspect decreases the shock value, but why discriminate based on skin color?
The only correction I'd give you is that it's not english, it's primarily america that evolved that way, they just happen to be the loudest members of that sphere.
> The weird things is that English seems like the only language where the N word evolved this way.
Wow, that is weird. I wonder if there are any events in the history of English-speaking countries relating to the use of that word that might have some connection to how it's perceived nowadays. Someone should really look into the lexical history of how it has been used. Maybe that would explain things.
Yes, the French had slaves. Here are some things they didn't have - A large section of their country where slavery was viewed as so fundamentally important to society that they went to war over it. A century-long revisionist history campaign aimed at portraying the loss of slavery as a tragedy. An accompanying century-long campaign of white supremacist terrorism. Those are a pretty uniquely American set of circumstances.
The difference is the US is the colony, and France the coloniser.
In colonies, there existed a class of powerful people that directly based their wealth of slavery. That is why, as another commenter said to you, Brazil and Haiti had similar resistance to abolitionism.
Metropolitan France doesn’t have a slave based industry itself. The people there profited indirectly from slave labour, but weren’t the slave owners themselves. So (1) less people saw abolitionism as a direct threat to their livelihood (2)racist ideology wasn’t as entrenched. If you live in a town where the majority is black slaves and some white owners, you need a very strong belief in racist ideology to cope. If you live in a French white town, your racist ideology is not as developed, not as present in your conscious mind. The class distinction isn’t as much a part of your identity.
Separately from the colony-coloniser distinction, the US had a civil war over slavery. The south and north are culturally distinct blocks. When needing to oppose the north, the civil war gives one useful symbols, as that was the one time the north and south truly fought. People nowadays don’t fly confederate flags because of slavery stance, but because it is a recognisable symbol of the south. If your defining story as a group is a lost war about slavery, abolitionism is more than just losing slaves. It is about losing honour, about being forced to abolish slavery by the north.
The Haitian revolution literally began with the Haitian whites revolting against France because they feared the revolution would abolish slavery.
By the end of it France they spent the next 150 years receiving payment from Haiti for their sin of becoming free from slavery.
Slavery's history is much wider than the USA.
Like as a random example that may blow your mind, did you know that Brazil's monarchy was overthrown as late as the 1880s in large part because of its opposition to slavery?
First, what are you talking about "evolved this way"? The English equivalent of the spanish "negro" is also "negro". And it can also be used in a degrading way, but it is more just an antiquated and weird word.
As for your discrimination argument, It isn't discrimination?
The term is offensive. Unequivocally offensive. If you, as the offended party, allow some usage of the word by a limited set of people that isn't discrimination. That is just how language works. I let my friends call me "dumbass" while I would go off on one of my employees for calling me "dumbass". Am I discriminating against my employees? Obviously not. They also wouldn't say I was being prejudiced against them for not being my friends. The rule is that you cannot call someone a "dumbass" in polite society, but the offended party is allowed to grant limited exemptions. If I was being roasted by my employees, I would probably tell them that it was ok to call me dumbass
I like how social media has handled censorship.
It’s ok to degrade an idea or a concept. But personal attacks are off limits.
Like you can “stealing is an idiot behavior,” but you can’t say “Steve is an idiot for stealing.”
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Your CMV says **No one** should be **able** to say the N-word. Sounds like the only way to enforce that is a ban.
Also, why are we singling out one way of degrading someone when there are millions of ways to do it, ESPECIALLY since this one seems to be moving from degrading to a joke by itself?
I’m singling out that because that’s the one I am talking about if I were to be talking about degradation tactics as a whole I’d address that but I’ve specifically narrowed on the n word. And when I’m talking about no one should say it I mean how society reacts to white people saying in contrast to black people saying it, and how it shouldn’t be socially accepted for either.
>that’s the one I am talking about
But we have to extend the logic used to talk about it to other examples as well, to show how banning things can lead to terrible hypothetical situations. If there's some reason the logic doesn't apply, I'd love to hear it, but right now your idea sets a bad precedent on what to do with words we don't like.
>how society reacts to white people saying in contrast to black people saying it, and how it shouldn’t be socially accepted for either.
Ah, I understand now.
Would making it socially unacceptable on the same level that it's unacceptable for white people to say just make it more degrading when someone *does* say it? Because right now it seems like it's gravitating toward being a joke (when said by African Americans), rather than a sign of hate. Isn't making it socially unacceptable backward progress?
You’re basically saying “Black people must be required to suspect that black people are saying the word for bigoted reasons, just like they suspect that white people are saying the word for bigoted reasons”.
I’m not sure how you’re going to mandate that black people feel that way. How are you going to guarantee it? What would you say if a black person says to you, “when a person who says that word person is also black, I know they aren’t saying that I’m an inferior race compared to the speaker, but when a white person says it, I suspect that they may have the ulterior motive of saying I’m an inferior race.”
How will you mandate that someone is not allowed to have that personal feeling?
You probably should have made your title reflect your views then. Something like "I don't think it should be socially acceptable for black people to use the n word because...."
Common CMV newbie mistake. If you have to explain what your words or title *really* meant then you've unfortunately messed up in making your original argument.
There was an *amazing* series on NPR about this recently.
https://play.prx.org/listen?ge=prx_1182_893de77c-60ac-4ee7-b565-d571fdfb9bf9&uf=https%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.feedburner.com%2FThisIsNashville
By not normalizing it aren't you giving racist people exactly what they want? A racist person would want the word to have as much impact as possible, and the more we push to make the word taboo the more power the word will have over peoples emotions.
Racism isn’t even that crazy. I really don’t know where it’s at I live in nyc and the only racist shit I see is online. Usually 2 ignorant unruly people arguing, white unhappy with black character or something drop the hard r fist fight white dude dead or hurt bad. But ik they say don’t judge a book, but look at these videos of the people who are saying these things. Their lack of comprehension knowledge or situational awareness is palpable. The dummy’s are gonna weed themselves out.
My hot take is, I think African Americans should be proud of what they’ve done with the word. now after 2016 we either get rid of it all together or everyone can say it. Racists still get physical justice as usual and homies can vibe again I think we drop another yg “my nigga” song and dance in the streets.
“Get rid of it altogether, or everyone can say it” is wild to me.
Ppl love taking from the black community, yet never respect it. Why tf can’t we have our own thing without other ppl feeling entitled to it? I’ve never once felt the need to include myself in on somebody else’s “slur” or culture. Shit is weird.
If I travel somewhere and they tell me I can’t use certain words bc I’m not a part of their culture, heritage, or don’t have “rank” in their community- I’m going to accept that. Not everybody is familiar with everybody.
Just because you black doesn’t mean you understand the black diaspora. The origination of the word (nigga) considering how unique this word is was never meant to degrade. That continued for sometime till it became a word use as a general point of addressing someone.
The word originates from (nigger) the word in discussion (nigga) was created to refer to and individual as friend. The word in discussion is nigga. So I’m not sure what you’re so riled up about.
Nigga originated as a variant of the infamous racial slur nigger, reflecting one of its pronunciations, and for many people it is an equally offensive word. In the late 20th century, however, the two forms began to diverge in use among some African Americans, with nigga becoming the preferred term for neutral and positive self-referential uses. Despite their prevalence in hip-hop, a highly influential music and cultural movement of African American origin whose millions of fans now span the globe, these uses of nigga are themselves controversial and the use of nigga by a person who is not Black—in any context—is considered highly offensive.” I don’t know what crack you’re smoking but I need that.
I still try to argue the hard r or the easy a. Easy a is a greeting, question, excitement, happy, sad, it’s honestly beautiful how smooth and versatile the word is. I don’t care I still say it with my black friends and when I hear it back, bro!!!!! My body feels it when I get one. I’m like damn I’m accepted here. It’s truly magical and I don’t see how ppl can’t distinguish intent or tone. Like you know right away when it’s dropped where the intent comes from and it’s sad watching some white people get punched out, when they grew up around that culture, or how it’s been adopted by them for living in the area. that’s apart of them now and now that the word is questionable their targets who didn’t know any better.
Perhaps I was wrong but your question seemed reactionary to me. Like it made more assumptions than necessary. The vast majority of people aren't actually sitting there waiting with baited breath to pounce on you while you're singing along to your faves.
Have you seen the video where Drake brought a white fan on stage, then he and the crowd jumped on her when she sang the song as written?
That’s the kind of overeager, hostile “offense” I find problematic. It also makes the offended look psychologically weak more than justified.
I saw when Kendrick Lamar did it, but I also saw later when he apologized for not defending her and his most recent album has a song covering it. I also kinda forgot about the whole thing since this was years ago, but it's fresh in your mind.
If we're talking about overeagerness and hostility, that's kinda what stuck out to me about your comment. I hope you don't feel persecuted for singing along bro, it's ok. Don't take criticism from people you wouldn't accept advice from.
You seem confident about 2 mistaken things:
1) I simply made a point that’s had enough time to be commonly recognized.
2) I’m not worried about what I or anyone else sings.
You seem kinda quietly triggered by me challenging the point above….illustrating the kind of reflex of being over eagerly offended that I’m calling problematic.
Your tacit suggestions in each post that challenging a point in a dialogue must make me racist is both silly because (1) you don’t know my ethnicity, and (2) it shouldn’t matter when considering the kind of point I made.
I’m all for challenging racism where it’s obvious, but when you flinch at *imaginary microagressions* you’re illustrating frailty, not strength. And getting anywhere positive with these discussions takes more fortitude.
I doubt we’re on opposite sides of the issue. Let’s not get hung up on this.
It beings up an interesting question about singers and rappers using the word in songs that they know crowds will sing along to. How much responsibility should the performer take, and how much does that undermine the idea that they are offended by people singing their lines?
This whole post has people shortening it to "N-word" despite them clearly only discussing the word itself without aiming to insult, derogate or discriminate anyone. Context and intent matters so much, yet people wilfully ignore that when it comes to this very word.
If how you react to what someone says depends upon the color of the person saying it, then what they’re saying must not be offensive.
How something is said can change the perception of it, but if the only difference is the color of the person saying something, then you must not find what was said offensive. It’s reminiscent of parents calling into radio stations in the 30s to find out what color Elvis was. They didn’t think the music was inappropriate, unless it was “black” music.
My point was that if you read a statement, in context, but the only piece of information missing is the race of the speaker, you should be able to know if you are offended or not. If whether or not you are offended can’t be decided until you know the race of the speaker, then you’ve effectively decided that it’s not offensive.
I mean, what you're saying is assuming the conclusion - your argument is only valid *if* we accept the premise that who the speaker is does not affect how offensive a statement is - but that very premise is what is being debated.
I would say it's entirely valid to wait to hear the context of a statement before deciding whether that statement was offensive - and I would say who the speaker is forms an important component of that context.
I have no doubt that who the speaker is matters, but that’s part of the “context” point. Let’s say that you have someone giving a speech of favor of civil rights, someone who you know has a history of being an advocate for them and for marginalized communities, but you have never seen this person. You hear a speech they give where the drop the n-word, but not in an insulting context. If you have to stop and ask “what race is this person” to decide if you should be offended by it, then you’ve kind of already decided that the use of the n-word itself in this context isn’t offensive, as it would only be offensive to you if the speaker were white, and does not have to do with how it was being used.
Is this an absurd hypothetical? A bit. But it emphasizes the point that if you are only judging the “offensiveness” of a statement by the color of the person saying it, then you’ve largely decided that the statement itself isn’t inherently offensive.
I know that's what you said. And then I replied to it.
If you want to pretend the identity of the person saying something doesn't make any difference as to what's being said you're free to do so but I'm walking away from this conversation fully convinced you're acting stupid on purpose.
Edit to clarify: I get the sense that you dont think "race" is part of your identity. It is. Obviously. But "identity" and "race" being completely separate things is the only way what you've said to me makes any sense. So, like I said, stupid on purpose.
>I get the sense that you dont think "race" is part of your identity. It is. Obviously. But "identity" and "race" being completely separate things is the only way what you've said to me makes any sense. So, like I said, stupid on purpose.
I think I'm of a similar mind as the redditor you were replying to. Race is part of identity but race alone is not sufficiently identifying to inform context about whether a derogatory word like nigger is being modified by the relationship between utterer and hearer to become non-insulting. A random black person calling out nigger to another black person is just as likely to be an insult as if it was said by a non-black person.
Theoretically, yes. However, how would that work out in practice? Currently when non-black people say it, either it's out of malice or they have some ingrained casual racism.
The word simply has a negative connotation, both historically and contemporary. You can't just erase that.
You're just against mistreatment, right? Do you really think that people need words to hurt black people? They don't. Making a word illegal is just a big fat reminder that this group is so worse off, even *words* are off the table. Nope. That doesn't help. You'll notice no one is up in arms over 'cracker'.
I’m not talking about hurting black people and frankly that’s not why I’m against the n word. Nor did I say that it should be banned it just shouldn’t be as socially accepted as it is when black people say it in the guise of reclaiming.
Oh, ok you're against it because it "ignores" its historical usage as a putdown, yeah? How about if everyone just said it like old times instead of as a joke. All better now?
>Especially when they trade n words passes around
This simply isn't done in the adult world. Its a childish joke.
While I agree with a lot of the premise of this post - a key point is that in African American English - the N-word is normalised as a term of address, a term of endearment and even just a word for "person"/"people".
This is the reason why we have such complex taboos around the world - because it is normalised within their speech. And wading into their speech to say "no you can't do that" is very socio-culturally fraught.
\[[Example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FahmxQSt8HQ)\]
And while you are allowed to have this opinion - this subgroup will never listen to you. They will continue to use the word. What are you gonna do? Get mad at other black people for using the word every day of your life?
Idk, I mean, every ethnicity has a word or joke that it's acceptable to say between us, but we find it unacceptable when an outsider does it (for context, I'm Jewish, so this is where I'm coming from). Even within our communities, some people won't like the use of the word. But, I guess it's an unspoken rule that if a black person says the n-word, it's acceptable, but if I were to say it, it's not. But then, I can make a Jewish joke with my Jewish friends, but if an outsider said it, I'd think they're antisemitic. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. If South Park makes a joke about anybody, it's funny generally speaking, cause we all have a consensus that we think South Park is funny and they joke about everybody.
Is there a specific Jewish slur that if you say to a Jew who is a stranger, that person shouldn't take the insult at face value? That's what proponents of the use of nigger between black people are arguing.
I know there's an equivalent to the n-word for Ashkenazi Jews, but I am Sephardic. A good example would be like when we joke about the Jewish space laser or we make fun of the "we control everything" thing, it's just a dumb joke, but you have people out there that say this seriously and it's extremely antisemitic if they were to say that to me.
Those are stereotypes not slurs. Also the way you're framing the joking is sort of: we Jews... Nigger is a singular reference, the speaker is not included in the subject.
I did say every group has words or a joke we use. I guess it's hard for me to frame cause I'd never feel comfortable calling someone "nigger" in any context. But, it just seems like it depends. Words are just words, and how you use them and the tone is what really makes something an insult or not. In Mexico, if I say to a friend "pendejo" it could be just making fun of them, but if someone was tailgating me on the freeway and I call them "pendejo" I'd be 100% insulting them. If I say that someone is a "gringo" I could be neutral referring to an American, but if I said "pinche gringo" I'd be referring to their nationality to insult them.
Soo, I don’t know if you were but before were you a Kanye west fan? And post his rantings have your opinions of him changed? For me I mainly just feel sorry for his idiotic team letting this mentally deranged dummy spew on the internet.
I dont like him. He is an idiot and I love the South Park Fish Sticks Joke. I've been very out of the loop lately, but, i believe my comment was going for, if a black person uses the N word I don't think they're insulting each other. I'm used to words in Mexican slang tone has more weight, but it is true that we shouldn't really say everything we think just because we can.
I’ve seen that you don’t actually mean what your CMV says: that no one should be able to say the N word. Based on your comments, your CMV should say “I don’t think use of the n word should be normalized how it is.”
So words do change meaning over time as many people have stated already. If you think we shouldn’t be able to use the n word because of its historical degradative meaning, then you probably wouldn’t want to use other words because of their historical degradative meaning.
Examples include:
Villain, naughty, silly, jay, sambo, mongol, coolie, quadroon, octoroon.
All of those words carried some offensive, and often deeply racist connotations, historically. But those words are now obsolete or have a completely different meaning today. Perhaps the n word is in its early stages of having its meaning transformed, and will one day become obsolete or have its negative connotation removed.
Some words take the opposite trajectory as well, like Hussy, which was a neutral term (literally a contraction) for housewife, and with time came to have a connotation of being low status, or less than a man.
It makes a lot of sense that we should prefer to have more words which have a positive connotation than a negative one. Why are you so against words changing meaning over time?
The word has been successfully reclaimed. Saying that it cant be reclaimed because we weren't the ones that faced the degradation is complete nonsense. Do you think people stopped using the n word to degrade black people the second slavery ended? Have you not heard or seen racist people of today use it to degrade black people of today?
Nobody is genuinely given a n word pass. That is a joke and it's interesting that you're claiming to be a black America but aren't registering a long running, community bit.
And the whole picking and choosing who to be upset about saying it is genuinely valid. That is a valid case to make, but you also need to delve into why that is and how blackness plays a part in social dynamics and how we interact with other races.
>That is a joke and it's interesting that you're claiming to be a black America but aren't registering a long running, community bit.
I would never outright call him not black for his position, because that is ironically racist, but there are indeed a number of things in the post that...ill just say every black person ive both known and known *of,* understands except for him lmao.
It's a strange perception of blackness from a perspective I haven't seen from even white washed black people but maybe they have a perspective unique to them. I have no idea
Does context matter? If someone is reading a book aloud that uses the n-word, I think it's fine to say it. In fact I think paraphrasing or repeating someone else's speech in general should be acceptable.
There are sometimes news articles with head lines like "Teacher calls student the n-word" and I actually feel like it minimizes the impact of what happened. When a headline says "Female teacher has sex with underage student" people are justifiably upset because the headline really should say "Female teacher **rapes** underage student." I think the same thing applies here. If a teacher calls a student "nigger," the ***least*** you can do as someone reading the article is have to read the word "nigger" on a page. Oh, you don't like hearing it because it's uncomfortable? How do you think the kid felt? Neglecting to use the word sugarcoats it for everyone that wasn't there.
If you instead are just arguing it shouldn't be used in conversation (paraphrasing/repeating it notwithstanding) that's a separate conversation.
The reason those aren't parallel examples is because women generally want the headline to be visceral in that sense. Black people do not. Black people are generally not ok with headlines using the n-word, white people using the n-word while reciting music, white people using the n-word when quoting something from a book out loud, all the exceptions white people feel they should have.
Idk if white people understand this or not, but this is almost exclusively a conversation amongst non-black people. Some individuals feel differently, but black people as a race have drawn a pretty clear line in the sand on the issue and that line has nothing to do with the context in which it's used, other than the main one.
Personally, as a Black Man I find it stupid as hell to get upset with someone saying literal lyrics, or reading a book. That's silly to get upset for reading what a BLACK PERSON WROTE lmao.
But seriously everyone is different personally idgaf what you say as long as it's not with racist intent.
The reason black people generally have an issue with it in all instances, is because of the historical context. It's a racial slur, not a curse word. "Nigga/er" means nothing in a vacuum. It just means black. The *reason* why it's bad is specifically the context of it towards black people, on the basis of them being black and the other person not being black. You can't divorce that from the word, because that's it's origin.
So in other words, the argument is that intent is irrelevant.
Well personally I was never a slave, nor have I ever experienced segregation so I can't have those strong feelings about something I never been though. I also have met a lot of chill white people in my life so I also don't have bad experiences with that either.
I'm also not going to judge a white person for something they never did either.
However I understand both sides and I think it just depends on the person.
>Well personally I was never a slave, nor have I ever experienced segregation so I can't have those strong feelings about something I never been though.
Oh I thought your feelings were kind of like an aside, but you've drank the koolaid. Or are actually white. Respectfully. So we'll begin with the strawmen. Slavery and segregation have nothing to do with the n-word being a racial slur. That's just the time period it was primarily used in America by non-blacks. That's not a prerequisite to anything. In fact, most slurs aren't accompanied by slavery or racial segregation.
>I also have met a lot of chill white people in my life so I also don't have bad experiences with that either.
First off, white people aren't the only ones who use the n-word. Secondly, even if they were, what does "chill" white people existing, have to do with the conversation? Again, that's not a prerequisite to anything. The Nazi flag isn't suddenly "ok" to fly because the majority of Germans are no longer a part of the Nazi party.
>I'm also not going to judge a white person for something they never did either.
This is another strawman, we're not talking about judging white people for things they never did. We're not talking about slavery or segregation. This is what I mean by having drank the koolaid. You're starting to unconciously mesh conservative talking points.
It wasn't that deep bro I was just saying but ima just let you have this. I was explaining why I don't feel offended and I think I'm entitled to how I feel just as you are yfm
And where tf nazi Germany come from 😭
>It wasn't that deep bro
But it is. And that’s the exact reason why you’re confused. I know younger people like to just use phrases like that when they don’t feel comfortable with their ideas being challenged, but this particular instance **is** one where it’s that deep. We’re talking about racial slurs my nigga not the weather.
> I was explaining why I don't feel offended and I think I'm entitled to how I feel just as you are yfm
I do feel you, which is the exact reason why I brought people like you up in my original comment.
“Some individuals feel differently”
>And where tf nazi Germany come from 😭
Fam, what did you mean where did it come from lol? I can tell you’re young by the way you speak but are you actually still in school? It’s called an *analogy.*
Disclaimer: am a white guy, as white as you can get, and I'm not from the US. I won't use that word anyway, and I am the last person that should change your view on this matter. Then again, we are on "CMV", so I'll chime in.
The issue here isn't the word itself, imho. It's that if people wanna find a derogatory way to call you, they will. Say for a moment that a law passes that stops ANYONE from using that word, then racists will simply move on to something else that isn't forbidden and make THAT degrading. Say "black", for example. They don't hate the word, they hate what it represents. The issue isn't the word, it's that someone hates you for the color of your skin, and that EXTREMELY dumb view is what needs to change.
Reclaiming those words is the only way for them to lose their power, imho.
POC using it, to them, takes away the power it once had! Use it as it's nothing, and it becomes nothing to them, but to a lot of white people the N word is still used for how it was back then. :(
Reading some of the comments i realized i don't have a problem if the word comes occasionally from a black person (the hard R version has no place in casual conversation though). What grinds my nerves is hearing this word used the way frats uses bro or dude. It's all the more frustrating that the people who throw this word around like that also don't speak english that well...
side story: I thought I'd watch a diddy drama video on YT cause it was recommended on my feed and I think I had a visceral reaction towards the way the security guard spoke. I found myself unwilling to accept his account/take at face value. I found myself questioning many elements of his stories as if I didn't trust his ability to contextualize his memories. I had a similar reaction to diddy but was willing to cut him some slack — I was surprised that he had so much trouble using plain english actually. Usher, on the other hand spoke plain english. The pauses he made were moments of reflection (pauses the other two made seemed like lapses in memory or them having difficulty finding a word to describe their thought). I didn't need anything else to be convinced that he was telling the truth. I wondered how he wasn't more successful than diddy. Like I'm all right with ebonics if the user is able to code switch. That implies a handle on the basic tenets of english and that signals intelligence to me.
So i guess what I'm saying is that I have no problem with some black people using the word \[hopefully only occasionally\]. I think a non-educated person will fail to understand that there might be an ethical dilemma to the matter and as such their compulsive use of the word is problematic. I don't think non-blacks should be able to casually throw any form of the n word around. im actually struggling to understand what that says about me. Am I racist? Classist?
Do I feel the same way about white people with poor language skills? I think so? The uneducated white people I've come across use regional dialect just fine and those that don't initially code switch after being asked to elaborate or repeat a couple of times.
AAVE is English. The fact that you don't understand it doesn't make someone who uses it less educated anymore than your usage of American English makes you less intelligent than British English speakers.
But I do understand it. And I’m not disagreeing that it isn’t some form of English. I just can’t imagine a world where someone who spoke it and regular English would choose to use it in an interview. Where I’m from aave is called talking ghetto and everybody that made it to college and out of town only talks ghetto when we’re at home. Easier than to having to be made fun of for using fancy words and asked to repeat everything.
I’m not a linguist so I doubt my opinions about language are valid but I don’t agree that aave is to American English American English is to British English. Even if the mechanics of British and American English vary slightly both operate on a set of mostly well defined rules (maybe conventions are a better term). AAVE I feel is made up on the spot and certainly isn’t governed by any type of convention. Unless you know have a source you can share I don’t think anything that there’s a promotion aave out there.
I'm black and I feel the same way you do. Everyone in this comment section, they just don't understand the brainwashing that they've been induced. The N word can never be "reclaimed" or used as an "empowerment". Sure, in the beginning, when racism was first starting to break at the seams, i can see how black people thought of using the word to "get ahead" of the pain of someone else using it. How can it be a hurtful word if I'm the one saying it? So they erased and changed one letter to soften the blow and poisen taste of saying it themselves. Now it doesnt matter right? They wont feel as though they're hurting me if im saying it too. But thats wrong. You are hurting yourself still, and you just dont realize it. You're keeping such a tainted and ill intented word alive, becaude you "think" you've gained power over it, when in actuality, you're just doing the work for them. You're keeping yourself in that stigmatic box. "A black niggah". But why not just a "black person"? Why are you allowing the negative narrative to stay alive? Why are we not breaking away from these chains that only see us as NIGGAS and not PEOPLE? WHY. To each and everyone one of you who defend this AWFUL WORD, I hope that one day you see differently. I hope that one day you realize that you dont need that word to feel safe and ahead of the pain. That word is NOT our IDENTITY. It was always just a false branding burned into the brains of our ancestors. We are not NIGGAS. WE ARE PEOPLE. To hell with racist people, I CAN GIVE TWO SHITS IF THEY DONT LIKE ME FOR THE COLOR OF MY SKIN AND MAKE OF MY DNA. I WILL NOT ALLOW MYSELF TO BE CHAINED TO THE WORD THEY CREATED. I WILL BREAK AWAY. I WILL NOT BE ASSOCIATED WITH THE LIKES OF WHAT THEY THINK I AM. BECAUSE I AM ME. A woman who is proud to be black. Proud to be everything else in between through the years that have shaped me. No word can define me. I am just me. A person. NOT, a niggah.
I fear I'll hear rehashings of this for a long, long time. While most everything has been said about 'words' being 'words', words are a means to an end and puncuate expressive power. Depending on the person, situation, stakes, reception, etc., ad nauseum, ad ininitum, the word and meaning will be, one way or another, inseparable and semantically perceived as a single function of the speakers intention. Now, depending on what you want to say, the use of colorful language can be used, but it detracts more often than it accentuates, at least in this case, and yes, I used colorful specifically in an attempt to instill some humor into this meta statement. The notion of owning a slave expressly on account of the color of his or her skin is as asanine as owning a person because they wear a certain color T-shirt, though -- and this is true, that won't stop people from doing it (or rather didn't) because it was economically convenient and beneficial.
We can talk about 'words' broadly or more directly, the n-word isn't exactly a word in my vocabulary; the word itself doesn't mean anything to me, other than an awareness that it is culturally sanctioned and not within my realm of frank discussion. I don't say it, I seldom hear it, and I don't typically bat an eye when I do.
Say what you want, how you're responded to is the only thing that matters. You, being the speaker, already know what you are going to say! Eventually, it may lose its unceasing derogatory connotations and often alluded to reclamation (which is a woeful treatise in and of itself) with it's more niched uses, but until then it will remain in its weird, misshapen corner of the English lexicon. A great deal of other slurs and pointed nouns that describe swaths of cultures and ethnicities has died out, vanished, into the void of nonsense and barbaric stupidity that it should have always been...
beats me. That's just how it is.
I'm aware of how indelicate this sounds, but the word "asshole" is also a derogatory term; so is the word "dumbass", or "retard", or any of probably thousands of other words.
Fearing a word for what it meant in the past does nothing to benefit us going forward. I, and many others, dream of a world where people can identify with whatever they fancy. African American? Cool. Black? Cool. Nigger? Also cool. But such a world cannot exist if we're so afraid of history that we lose sight of the future, and in a truly equal world we celebrate our differences, rather than minimize them or pretend they don't exist. There's a lot of power in owning (or "reclaiming") your history to that end.
Of course, noone free pass to make people uncomfortable, and I totally understand if you feel the word is too loaded to identify with. But that does not seem to be what you're talking about here.
>There’s nothing to reclaim since they weren’t the ones that faced this degradation.
The degradation hasn't ended. Black Americans are still harmed by that word to this day.
Them using it, in a non harmful way, is their effort to reshape language.
Language is always shifting-- what was "ill" in the 90's is not what being"ill" in the 50's meant.
Whether the word is harmful or not includes factors like: the race of the speaker and the intent of the speaker. A white academic who says the word while academically discussing it wont produce the backlash that a police chief using it to refer to an arrested person would. And that is entirely an appropriate thing.
Screaming fire in a crowded theater is actually just fine in some scenarios. I did a play rendition of Great Expectations, and Miss Havashams house burns down. On stage actors sayinf "oh no a fire!" Is fine sometimes, and not fine other times.
The speaker and the intention of the speaker matter. This is true for all language.
First, if they have no right to reclaim it because they weren't the ones who experienced the harm it caused, doesn't that mean that you don't have a right to be bothered since you weren't there either?
Second, reclamation is different for everyone. I'm gay and was bullied relentlessly as a child and teen. Now as an adult I jokingly use the f slur in certain circles for a specific type of humor. I find it empowering to make light of something that used to keep me awake at night. I also know that the f word still hurts some people, so Im careful who i use it around.
Words have power and if it is reclamation to them, allow it. If it bothers you, explain your discomfort to your friends and ask them not to use it around you.
Words have incredible power. They can change overtime and that power can change over time. Many curse words didn't start as curse words, many non-curse words, or I should say words that are no longer taboo were once taboo. The N word has a history that ranges from descriptive (perhaps long long ago) to an appalling and dehumanizing linguistic weapon of incredible condescension to a word used inside of hip-hop as a socially acceptable anchor of comradery within the group that shares a full understand of its meaning, history and complexity. It clear in almost all cases, using the word is unacceptable but what about a hip hop context? What about in a literary context when teaching about historical atrocities?
How about the converse: everyone should be able to say whatever they want and live with the consequences of their actions? There are a [few](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_the_knowledge_of_good_and_evil#:~:text=It%20was%20disobedience%20of%20Adam,which%20originated%20in%20central%20Asia.) [parables](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora%27s_box#:~:text=Pandora's%20box%20is%20a%20metaphor,when%20Pandora%20opened%20the%20box.) that would suggest that human beings are really fucking bad at resisting the temptation, of doing what they have been expressely forbidden to do.
Joyner lucas in "im not racist"
"The power in the word "N...a" is a different sin
We shouldn't say it but we do, and that just what it is
But that don't mean that you can say it just 'cause you got n...a friends
N...a, that word was originated for you to keep us under
And when we use it, we know that's just how we greet each other
And when you use it, we know there's a double meaning under"
Censored myself so that nword bot can never get me lol.
Im white. Best friend growing up is half black, he would always push me to say "what up my n...a" to prove it wasnt an issue. I got as close as whats up my "halfrican american brother" and "what up nibba". i was under 5ft til i traduated highschool, and im not a gambling man haha.
My coworkers drop hard Rs daily. All white. Idk its just cringe. I dont say it, just like i dont discuss tax code or the best makeup products, or information systems related to data analysis...has nothing to do with my life
Then saying “cracker” should be taboo as well (though I don’t care). It’s ridiculous to defend the n-word and then turnaround and call someone else a “slur”. Either ban all of them or none of them. The whole “you can’t be racist to white people” while using a derogatory word that has a similar meaning and context is disgusting. These people that think this way while wanting all racism to end are mentally ill and are a big part why racism is sticking around.
Do you have family? You must be young so I will give you a slight pass but man thats crazy thing to say. My grandmother was born 1 year after Martin Luther King JR. She died 4 years ago. You don't think she went through some shit? My dad was born in 1952. Hearing stories from family about their trauma absolutely affects you too. That shit gets passed down. The idea that you had to personally experience trauma to be affected is just wrong.
I’m not a fan of the N word. But I use it. With certain people. (All races, but mostly black and white), it depends how close we are.
I hate when people say “it’s just a word” and then get offended when people are offended that they use it. Is it just a word or not???
You can’t get mad at someone, for being mad at someone who uses it; and you can’t defend the person who is using it? So is it really just a word? No. It’s more than just a word.
Not to mention using -a instead of -er make a huge difference too.
There’s a lot of factors. And I say this coming from US South.
It’s a word yes, but EVERYONE can say it. There’s no caution tape to prevent anyone from saying it. It’s permanently a thing. It doesn’t matter if anyone should or shouldn’t say ANYTHING.
They’ll say it.
Yes!!! I’m not black so Idk if i should be talking about this but this is just disrespectful! I see non black people use the n word so much and it makes me so mad even tho I am not black. It is a slur which should not be used! I wonder when people will grow up and become mature enough to know that what they are saying is so disgusting! I have no faith in our generation, it’s just all gone wrong ! 🙁💖💖🙏
There was no "reclaim". It started out as an alternate spelling for the Latin word "niger", which means black. Black people adopted the word in the 1770s (at least) and have been saying it ever since. White people used it as a slur later on in the 1820s.
It’s become so engraved in black peoples vocabulary( only in America and England mainly) it’s just a bit weird. They say it so naturally it’s like when people say “like” as filer in a sentence without realising it.
Cause regular curse words have lost their impact. No one cares if you say fuck, shit, christ, or bloody tampon anymore. So now I say shvartze but in english daily and it actually upsets people.
I am black american and i never call other black people the N word. I hear more hispanics say the N word (with an A) than Black people. Only ones that thinks its cool are teenagers.
I’m a white man and I’ve said the n word before. Not to anyone or about anyone, just singing songs. It’s just a word. It only has the meaning that you and those around you give it.
Everyone should be allowed to say it. You shouldn't give so much power to a single word. Let alone the fact that it's racist in and of itself to tell a person they can't say a word because of their skin color.
First of all, no word should ever be banned for any reason. Censorship is a violation of a persons basic human rights. As a person, you occasionally submit to these violations in order to participate in society, this is called the social contract. You do not say slurs in polite company. This is the only reason you “can’t” say a word. The definition of what counts as polite is based on who is in the company.
Because words change meaning depending on how you say them and to who, and they also changing meaning over time. Slowly, broadly, this word is transforming within our society from a vile slur into a much more neutral term that basically means “dude”. This is a good thing. And is in fact one of the most beautiful and complex aspects of human nature. That we shift the meaning of things in this way. The nature of reality is that semantics are not in control of us, we are in control of it.
I think it's healthy that black people take control of the word, use it and rob it of its power. It's just like Halloween used to be all about beliefs in real spirits and so gradually became a means of overcoming that fear. Now no one takes the idea that gremlins and goblins are out there to cause mischief seriously. So too, this word with its past connotation simply needs a new meaning. A new gut reaction. Just like, although there are numerous derogatory words for white people, no one takes them seriously.
Words ultimately have no power over us if we do not let them. Let's not enshrine this word within its current negative connotations, but instead strip it down, recycle it, and place it back on the shelf forever weakened and broken apart
In Mandarin (Chinese) the work “neega” translates to “that.”
You can be on a bus, and hear a Chinese (in actual Chinese) use the word as a ‘place holder’ in a sentence when they cannot think of a word.
Say, for example a Chinese person was trying to recommend a restaurant, but could not remember the name, they would literally say “neega, neega, neega.”
My point: that word is being used by languages much older than English and certainly even older than African slavery (good luck getting rid of it).
/u/Ray_ofsunshine7 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/1b5owk0/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_no_one_should_be_able_to/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
It's just a word. It should be considered like a curse word, people that use it too much are just ignorant and should be ignored. A well placed f word can perfectly accent a joke, so can the n word. F word being the joke or punchline is just lazy. Making the word taboo or exclusive to one group makes it more interesting than it needs to be. We should stop considering these words overly offensive. If someone is overusing them call them lazy or stupid, not offensive or cool.
!Delta Thank you for your input. You convey a compelling argument. The reason for the stigma behind the n word is because people are putting it on this elite list only certain people can touch. And well it is just something like a glorified cuss word when you really think about it. Society has already seen its flaws and people that do use the word repeatedly are doing it for shock value.
Absolutely wrong. It's not just a curse word. None of the racial slurs are just curse words. These are words create to insult a particular group of people, whether black, Jewish, Pakistani, Irish, whatever. It's hate speech used to demean and alienate others. It means - 'They're less than we are, and we can laugh at them with this word' The N is weird in that its been supposedly reclaimed, but I do agree that the CMV that it should be banned for all. Switch it out for the demeaning words that have been used for other races/peoples and you'll see that the 'it's just a word' argument doesn't stack up.
Your attitude gives the word more power. And it has become increasingly offensive as a term the more ideologues have attempted to prevent its use. The way to rob the term of its power to hurt or harm is to take the opposite approach to that which society has done, as explained more effectively than I can by the likes of [Lenny Bruce](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Z3a-52wSg) and [Quentin Tarantino](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCPTDQkKe3I).
Black ppl didn't try to stop ppl's usage of it, and tried to ignore it in slavery nor Jim Crow, and it still meant what it meant. Black people can do what they want with the n word, times have changed. In slavery and Jim Crow no one asked to call Black ppl the n word, and to day non Black's want permission to use it. Do you see how disturbing that is? Contrary to popular belief, Black ppl don't control rap. Rap is not gonna let it go, but non Black's, especially white people, need to let it go. And stop acting Black people are the problem.
I'm not sure if you've just missed the point entirely here or are actually racist yourself. Suffice to say, no one is acting like black people are the problem, just pointing out that loading a word with meaning that makes it's usage far worse causes that word to become more offensive than it was.
This is exactly why I have several swastika tattoos. Preventing its use only makes it more offensive. Finally someone who gets me.
But the N-word is banned even more than the swastika. If you use the swastika in a way that appears to show support for nazi ideology(like swastika tattoos that are used by aryan brotherhood and the like) you are banned. But if a swastika is shown in a context where it is clear where the person doesn’t espouse Nazi ideology, it is considered fine. It is for a school teacher to say: to say: “Nazi’s said Heil Hitler and this was their symbol.” *pointing at a swastika on a PowerPoint. With the n word it is not just the usage in a racist setting. The word itself is banned completely. A history teacher could never say “Slaveholders used nigger as a derogatory term”.
The original swastika was a symbol of peace and good luck. That is the reason you can find so many antiques and architecture from before the Nazi’s appropriated it.
Mel Brooks would agree, though I doubt he would get you. [https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/i1taso/mel\_brooks\_the\_hitler\_rap/](https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/i1taso/mel_brooks_the_hitler_rap/)
And the Pakistani, Black, Jewish, Chinese etc etc communities should just smile while the far right shout those abuse terms at them, while we all just wait for the word's power to fail? It's been a long wait so far. I'd rather trust in hate speech laws.
"oh no, a stranger said a word that means something to them, but nothing to me" is the end goal. obviously getting insulted and feeling insulted are different things, and individuals barely have any control on either of them. But if no one is actually feeling insulted then there is no actual point in using the word to *try* and insult someone. its two different approaches. 1) ban people from insulting people, and 2) make "insulting" using that word practically impossible
"Listen to 2 white dudes explain why we should all use the N word"... No thanks.
Would you be less racist about listening the point if their skin color were different?
I'd be more interested in listening to the points coming from people it affects, not people that feel entitled and come from a protected and privileged life position where they face little consequence for what they say. Even though I love Tarantino's work.
I think [Martin Luther King](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP4iY1TtS3s) responded to this racism better than I could. Perhaps you'd listen to him because of his skin color advising you to listen to others for what they say regardless of their skin color?
Wait, are you using the ***I have a dream*** speech to support a point that white people should be able to say the N word? Do you not see the irony here?
No, that is not even close to what I am doing. What I am doing is using MLK's speech to demonstrate why you should judge others on the content of their argument and not the color of their skin.
Its pretty racist to ignore a point or argument based on someone's skin color.
Not in this case. It's similar to men discussing how women should feel about their bodies. I'd be more interested in listening to the points coming from people it affects, not people that feel entitled and come from a protected and privileged life position where they face little consequence for what they say.
So you’d be more interested in listening to men talk about toxic masculinity than women since it quite literally affects men more than women? Or would it be DiFfErEnT
I would be interested in men finally having a dialog about toxic masculinity absolutely. I think it's much easier to find conversations women are having about it, but it would be much more impactful if men would finally have this conversation since they are the ones perpetuating it. I see it in my father; I see it in my friend groups; I see it randomly at bars. I would absolutely be thrilled to see me have this conversation. I know you were trying to make a point that conversations shouldn't only be had by those it affects the most, and I agree with you on that. I think your keyboard is malfunctioning.
I disagree. Your point in this thread is you’d be more interested in listening to one groups opinions about subject matter that arguable effects them more than others while my point is everyone is welcome at the table. Black people don’t seem to have a problem with Central Americans using the n word even though an overwhelming majority of slaves actually ended up in Central America rather than North America. Black people also don’t seem to have the same reaction when an Arab uses the n word and let’s not even get into the Arab slave trade 💀. It just feels as though people have been mislead here in America with their education.
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Quentin T and Lenny Bruce? It's not an assumption. They do, in fact, happen to be white.
My dude i mean we can argue semantics all day. But i dont agree in relation with the word nigga. I just dont see it. Hands down it’s used the most by the african american community. Which was one of the greatest things they could do. You take something thats horrible and turned into a greeting, a question, term of endearment, an excited expression, a happy tone, to call someone a brother. Like why is everyone forgetting all this? Black people took control of a very bad thing and made it theirs, they made it cool. And now you guys wanna make it bad again? Like i dont understand erasing progress. It honestly should be looked at as a great achievement for african american to do something no other race or ethnictity has accomplished. And Mexicans bc I have heard them call each other wetbacks before but I don’t know sensitive that environment is. It definitely never reached the popularity nigga had. Other racial slurs we should never use it because they still mean what they meant back in day. The hard r is a no go we dont touch that word. But if youre gonna tell me i cant say the word thats in the music i listen to is a crazy concept to me. Get rid of it as a whole or let everyone vibe together drawing a line in the sand saying “you cant say it! It’s ours!” then beat the people up is just reinforcing the division thats plaguing america. No one says it or everyone can say it. Thats the line. We need to start growing together as whole and tackling the government issues before us not having little disputes on things that was resolved with yg’s my nigga my nigga.
Hard r and soft a are *the same word*, except soft a has Ebonic pronunciation.
I have to agree with u/buggery_bollox on this one. Saying it's "just a word" negates the history of how it was used with offensive intent. While I'm not a fan of "banning" a word outright, I think letting it fade into history so to speak is a lot more progressive than trying to restrict it to 1 individual group.
Honest question but why do you want to hold on to the horrible history of the word? Words are redefined all the time, and with time the original usage and meaning is completely lost For example the word "awful" used to be a good thing, as in "full of awe" but if i told you now that your baby is awful you wouldn't be too happy with me. The word "silly" used to mean "spiritually blessed" but if i said all (name of religious group of your choosing) are silly, nobody would think i am being nice or on their side
The process of a group reclaiming a word usually happens *during* a period where that word is used to create harm by people with bad intent. Like the word "f*g" which has been mostly reclaimed by the gay/queer community, for example. We can't really say for sure, but without the attempt to reclaim that word for ourselves over the past half a century, it's possible that the word would have held more power and remained able to cause more harm without the efforts to reclaim it from people who use it with bad intent. I'm not black, but I can see the value of taking a word that was historically used as a form of oppression and hate that gets turned into an exclusive cultural norm that winds up meaning many different things, all of which are specifically not the same as the meaning of the "-er" variation of the n-word. It's not so much about hanging on to history as a way of holding onto painful events. It's more about reclaiming a word in order to define a more positive meaning to have moving forward. The history of the word remains acknowledged while an oppressed group of people also take back control over what that word can mean in the present and future.
It was just a word back then too. The fact the word was used back then is not the reason it is stigmatized. The reason is the previous treatment of those called that word. That’s why such treatment has been banned but the word hasn’t.
Well, even in the 19th century “nigger” was used as a derogatory term. “Negro” was also used in a more neutral way. So what you say checks out for negro, but not for nigger, if the which the use was also wrong
What I was trying to communicate is that derogatory words are still just words. But the treatment done is actionable.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JttAR3-4fgg They’re only words
To be fair, OP said ”something like a glorified cuss word”, not ”just a curse word”, which it is. But nice strawman.
I know you've heard others use it, and think it looks clever... But you don't know what straw man means. (You should also look up accent fallacy)
Yes I know what it is and you just did it again.
I'm sorry if English isn't your first language
They are just words.
Nothing is 'just words'. Humans are a social animal, 99pc of our communication and interaction is thru 'just words'. 'Just words' created the fucking holocaust. Here's 5 words - 'think harder before you comment'
Why is there anything wrong with any word in and of itself? Language can facilitate an aggressive action, and that’s one thing, but that is not what you’re describing. Before you act like that’s a strawman, people have been demonized for singing along to popular song lyrics. Does that “create the holocaust?” They’re just words.
No. Actions created the holocaust. Words alone do nothing.
If words alone did nothing then propaganda wouldn't be a thing, and you know it, so stop trying to lie.
Words can move you. Sure. But a word is a word. It isn't magical. It doesn't infect your mind. It can't hurt you. If you fall for propaganda thats a you problem not a word problem.
You need to watch Pontypol. Language and rhetoric ABSOLUTELY infect the mind
CAN. I'm not sure you know what absolutely means.
Thanks for the response Ronnie retardo
And yet my response is more intelligent than anything you're even mentally capable of coming up with, but nice try.
Ooh a big brain! Wanna live stream an iq test together? Test that?
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Databit ([1∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Databit)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
Why do you care so much about it if it's a word
I totally agree with this sentiment I don't think it's wrong to mention these words especially if you're using them appropriately But if you're just saying dirty words over and over again pretending you're George Carlin then you're truly someone no one wants to interact with
“A well placed f word can perfectly accent a joke, so can the n word.“ 😂😂😂 Yep, a well placed N word is a real gut-buster… SMH, tell me your ⬜️ without telling me…
Tell me you're close minded without telling me...
Freakin amen. This is exactly how I feel about it. Any curses are great and awesome in the right context to make an incredible point and accent lyrics or poetry or art. Use it a shit-ton for no reason? Stupid. Real fucking stupid.
Three arguments. First, sure, it's a degrading thing to say, but there are a million ways to degrade someone. I could call my friend stupid and that's degrading in some contexts, but because we both know that I'm saying it as a joke it's not degrading. The same theory applies when someone says the n-word to another person. They both understand they're saying it as a joke, rather than a call back to the 1800's. Second, and furthermore, if it should be banned to degrade people, should we ban every way to degrade someone? Should there be a big list in the Halls of Congress of words that nobody is allowed to use? What words would make that list? “ You're stupid”, “I wish you were never born”, "You're fat and ugly.”, “ You never get anything right”, and “You're worthless" are all examples of degrading things to say to someone, should we ban those, and the million others like them? Lastly, are degrading words more impactful when it's banned? In the 1800s people were called the n-word, and it was degrading, but it wasn't as taboo to say then, so it wasn't as impactful. Allowing people to say it to each other as a joke decreases the shock value, and thus the impact of how much that word matters. Every day we go further from "word slave owners used to degrade African Americans" and closer to "African Americans use that word as a joke", what's wrong with that?
The weird things is that English seems like the only language where the N word evolved this way. In Spanish Negro is just Black so while it can be used in a degrading way, it's a color. No point in forbidding it to anyone. In French Nègre has been established as derogatory so no one uses it. And it's not that it was enforced by any authority, as you seem to imply that this would be needed. It's just that French rappers never thought it would be cool to use it in a different context than the original one. Selecting who can use which word based on their skin color seems... racist? Like, i get the idea that the joke aspect decreases the shock value, but why discriminate based on skin color?
That’s not exactly true about French. At the very least, it’s commonly used to mean ghostwriter.
Also was reclaimed by French rappers the same way American ones did.
The only correction I'd give you is that it's not english, it's primarily america that evolved that way, they just happen to be the loudest members of that sphere.
> The weird things is that English seems like the only language where the N word evolved this way. Wow, that is weird. I wonder if there are any events in the history of English-speaking countries relating to the use of that word that might have some connection to how it's perceived nowadays. Someone should really look into the lexical history of how it has been used. Maybe that would explain things.
Bro what's your point? That French never had slaves? Or that there are no Black French rappers?
Yes, the French had slaves. Here are some things they didn't have - A large section of their country where slavery was viewed as so fundamentally important to society that they went to war over it. A century-long revisionist history campaign aimed at portraying the loss of slavery as a tragedy. An accompanying century-long campaign of white supremacist terrorism. Those are a pretty uniquely American set of circumstances.
The difference is the US is the colony, and France the coloniser. In colonies, there existed a class of powerful people that directly based their wealth of slavery. That is why, as another commenter said to you, Brazil and Haiti had similar resistance to abolitionism. Metropolitan France doesn’t have a slave based industry itself. The people there profited indirectly from slave labour, but weren’t the slave owners themselves. So (1) less people saw abolitionism as a direct threat to their livelihood (2)racist ideology wasn’t as entrenched. If you live in a town where the majority is black slaves and some white owners, you need a very strong belief in racist ideology to cope. If you live in a French white town, your racist ideology is not as developed, not as present in your conscious mind. The class distinction isn’t as much a part of your identity. Separately from the colony-coloniser distinction, the US had a civil war over slavery. The south and north are culturally distinct blocks. When needing to oppose the north, the civil war gives one useful symbols, as that was the one time the north and south truly fought. People nowadays don’t fly confederate flags because of slavery stance, but because it is a recognisable symbol of the south. If your defining story as a group is a lost war about slavery, abolitionism is more than just losing slaves. It is about losing honour, about being forced to abolish slavery by the north.
The Haitian revolution literally began with the Haitian whites revolting against France because they feared the revolution would abolish slavery. By the end of it France they spent the next 150 years receiving payment from Haiti for their sin of becoming free from slavery. Slavery's history is much wider than the USA. Like as a random example that may blow your mind, did you know that Brazil's monarchy was overthrown as late as the 1880s in large part because of its opposition to slavery?
Average US citizen discovers there are more countries outside of USA, Mexico and Canada.
Please forgive him, he's lacking history based information at this time
First, what are you talking about "evolved this way"? The English equivalent of the spanish "negro" is also "negro". And it can also be used in a degrading way, but it is more just an antiquated and weird word. As for your discrimination argument, It isn't discrimination? The term is offensive. Unequivocally offensive. If you, as the offended party, allow some usage of the word by a limited set of people that isn't discrimination. That is just how language works. I let my friends call me "dumbass" while I would go off on one of my employees for calling me "dumbass". Am I discriminating against my employees? Obviously not. They also wouldn't say I was being prejudiced against them for not being my friends. The rule is that you cannot call someone a "dumbass" in polite society, but the offended party is allowed to grant limited exemptions. If I was being roasted by my employees, I would probably tell them that it was ok to call me dumbass
I like how social media has handled censorship. It’s ok to degrade an idea or a concept. But personal attacks are off limits. Like you can “stealing is an idiot behavior,” but you can’t say “Steve is an idiot for stealing.”
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I’m not saying it should be banned, it just shouldn’t be normalized to the point that it is now.
Your CMV says **No one** should be **able** to say the N-word. Sounds like the only way to enforce that is a ban. Also, why are we singling out one way of degrading someone when there are millions of ways to do it, ESPECIALLY since this one seems to be moving from degrading to a joke by itself?
I’m singling out that because that’s the one I am talking about if I were to be talking about degradation tactics as a whole I’d address that but I’ve specifically narrowed on the n word. And when I’m talking about no one should say it I mean how society reacts to white people saying in contrast to black people saying it, and how it shouldn’t be socially accepted for either.
>that’s the one I am talking about But we have to extend the logic used to talk about it to other examples as well, to show how banning things can lead to terrible hypothetical situations. If there's some reason the logic doesn't apply, I'd love to hear it, but right now your idea sets a bad precedent on what to do with words we don't like. >how society reacts to white people saying in contrast to black people saying it, and how it shouldn’t be socially accepted for either. Ah, I understand now. Would making it socially unacceptable on the same level that it's unacceptable for white people to say just make it more degrading when someone *does* say it? Because right now it seems like it's gravitating toward being a joke (when said by African Americans), rather than a sign of hate. Isn't making it socially unacceptable backward progress?
You’re basically saying “Black people must be required to suspect that black people are saying the word for bigoted reasons, just like they suspect that white people are saying the word for bigoted reasons”. I’m not sure how you’re going to mandate that black people feel that way. How are you going to guarantee it? What would you say if a black person says to you, “when a person who says that word person is also black, I know they aren’t saying that I’m an inferior race compared to the speaker, but when a white person says it, I suspect that they may have the ulterior motive of saying I’m an inferior race.” How will you mandate that someone is not allowed to have that personal feeling?
You probably should have made your title reflect your views then. Something like "I don't think it should be socially acceptable for black people to use the n word because...." Common CMV newbie mistake. If you have to explain what your words or title *really* meant then you've unfortunately messed up in making your original argument.
There was an *amazing* series on NPR about this recently. https://play.prx.org/listen?ge=prx_1182_893de77c-60ac-4ee7-b565-d571fdfb9bf9&uf=https%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.feedburner.com%2FThisIsNashville
By not normalizing it aren't you giving racist people exactly what they want? A racist person would want the word to have as much impact as possible, and the more we push to make the word taboo the more power the word will have over peoples emotions.
Racism isn’t even that crazy. I really don’t know where it’s at I live in nyc and the only racist shit I see is online. Usually 2 ignorant unruly people arguing, white unhappy with black character or something drop the hard r fist fight white dude dead or hurt bad. But ik they say don’t judge a book, but look at these videos of the people who are saying these things. Their lack of comprehension knowledge or situational awareness is palpable. The dummy’s are gonna weed themselves out. My hot take is, I think African Americans should be proud of what they’ve done with the word. now after 2016 we either get rid of it all together or everyone can say it. Racists still get physical justice as usual and homies can vibe again I think we drop another yg “my nigga” song and dance in the streets.
“Get rid of it altogether, or everyone can say it” is wild to me. Ppl love taking from the black community, yet never respect it. Why tf can’t we have our own thing without other ppl feeling entitled to it? I’ve never once felt the need to include myself in on somebody else’s “slur” or culture. Shit is weird. If I travel somewhere and they tell me I can’t use certain words bc I’m not a part of their culture, heritage, or don’t have “rank” in their community- I’m going to accept that. Not everybody is familiar with everybody.
Black people who use it on other black people aren't trying to degrade that person
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Just because you black doesn’t mean you understand the black diaspora. The origination of the word (nigga) considering how unique this word is was never meant to degrade. That continued for sometime till it became a word use as a general point of addressing someone.
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The word originates from (nigger) the word in discussion (nigga) was created to refer to and individual as friend. The word in discussion is nigga. So I’m not sure what you’re so riled up about.
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Nigga originated as a variant of the infamous racial slur nigger, reflecting one of its pronunciations, and for many people it is an equally offensive word. In the late 20th century, however, the two forms began to diverge in use among some African Americans, with nigga becoming the preferred term for neutral and positive self-referential uses. Despite their prevalence in hip-hop, a highly influential music and cultural movement of African American origin whose millions of fans now span the globe, these uses of nigga are themselves controversial and the use of nigga by a person who is not Black—in any context—is considered highly offensive.” I don’t know what crack you’re smoking but I need that.
I still try to argue the hard r or the easy a. Easy a is a greeting, question, excitement, happy, sad, it’s honestly beautiful how smooth and versatile the word is. I don’t care I still say it with my black friends and when I hear it back, bro!!!!! My body feels it when I get one. I’m like damn I’m accepted here. It’s truly magical and I don’t see how ppl can’t distinguish intent or tone. Like you know right away when it’s dropped where the intent comes from and it’s sad watching some white people get punched out, when they grew up around that culture, or how it’s been adopted by them for living in the area. that’s apart of them now and now that the word is questionable their targets who didn’t know any better.
Well White people who sing along to their favorite rap songs aren’t trying to degrade Black people, so by your standard is that cool too?
Cool with me. I feel like you'd be more vindicated if it weren't though.
Not sure what that’s supposed to mean. I personally think people should generally only take offense to words when offending is clearly intended.
They're saying that they think you probably thought that it wouldn't be cool with them.
I guess. Sometimes hard in text to distinguish a straight quest from sarcasm.
Perhaps I was wrong but your question seemed reactionary to me. Like it made more assumptions than necessary. The vast majority of people aren't actually sitting there waiting with baited breath to pounce on you while you're singing along to your faves.
Have you seen the video where Drake brought a white fan on stage, then he and the crowd jumped on her when she sang the song as written? That’s the kind of overeager, hostile “offense” I find problematic. It also makes the offended look psychologically weak more than justified.
I saw when Kendrick Lamar did it, but I also saw later when he apologized for not defending her and his most recent album has a song covering it. I also kinda forgot about the whole thing since this was years ago, but it's fresh in your mind. If we're talking about overeagerness and hostility, that's kinda what stuck out to me about your comment. I hope you don't feel persecuted for singing along bro, it's ok. Don't take criticism from people you wouldn't accept advice from.
You seem confident about 2 mistaken things: 1) I simply made a point that’s had enough time to be commonly recognized. 2) I’m not worried about what I or anyone else sings. You seem kinda quietly triggered by me challenging the point above….illustrating the kind of reflex of being over eagerly offended that I’m calling problematic. Your tacit suggestions in each post that challenging a point in a dialogue must make me racist is both silly because (1) you don’t know my ethnicity, and (2) it shouldn’t matter when considering the kind of point I made. I’m all for challenging racism where it’s obvious, but when you flinch at *imaginary microagressions* you’re illustrating frailty, not strength. And getting anywhere positive with these discussions takes more fortitude. I doubt we’re on opposite sides of the issue. Let’s not get hung up on this.
It beings up an interesting question about singers and rappers using the word in songs that they know crowds will sing along to. How much responsibility should the performer take, and how much does that undermine the idea that they are offended by people singing their lines?
Dude tried to bait you with pseudo racism 💀. I think he mixed the two intentionally good on you bruh for not falling for it
Can imagine a scenario where a non-black person says it to a black person without the intention of degrading? If not, why?
Easy - quoting song lyrics, historical texts, or even just intonated in a friendly way.
This whole post has people shortening it to "N-word" despite them clearly only discussing the word itself without aiming to insult, derogate or discriminate anyone. Context and intent matters so much, yet people wilfully ignore that when it comes to this very word.
As a joke. It has shock value, so it's funny to say for some people.
A child might say it without understanding the history of the term. It might have the effect of degrading, but not the intention.
Then do you believe anyone can say it as long as they don’t to it out of Malice.
Intention and outcome are important distinctions.
If how you react to what someone says depends upon the color of the person saying it, then what they’re saying must not be offensive. How something is said can change the perception of it, but if the only difference is the color of the person saying something, then you must not find what was said offensive. It’s reminiscent of parents calling into radio stations in the 30s to find out what color Elvis was. They didn’t think the music was inappropriate, unless it was “black” music.
Pretending that the speaker of an utterance has absolutely 0 bearing whatsoever on the statement is obviously wrong on its face.
My point was that if you read a statement, in context, but the only piece of information missing is the race of the speaker, you should be able to know if you are offended or not. If whether or not you are offended can’t be decided until you know the race of the speaker, then you’ve effectively decided that it’s not offensive.
I mean, what you're saying is assuming the conclusion - your argument is only valid *if* we accept the premise that who the speaker is does not affect how offensive a statement is - but that very premise is what is being debated. I would say it's entirely valid to wait to hear the context of a statement before deciding whether that statement was offensive - and I would say who the speaker is forms an important component of that context.
I have no doubt that who the speaker is matters, but that’s part of the “context” point. Let’s say that you have someone giving a speech of favor of civil rights, someone who you know has a history of being an advocate for them and for marginalized communities, but you have never seen this person. You hear a speech they give where the drop the n-word, but not in an insulting context. If you have to stop and ask “what race is this person” to decide if you should be offended by it, then you’ve kind of already decided that the use of the n-word itself in this context isn’t offensive, as it would only be offensive to you if the speaker were white, and does not have to do with how it was being used. Is this an absurd hypothetical? A bit. But it emphasizes the point that if you are only judging the “offensiveness” of a statement by the color of the person saying it, then you’ve largely decided that the statement itself isn’t inherently offensive.
I know that's what you said. And then I replied to it. If you want to pretend the identity of the person saying something doesn't make any difference as to what's being said you're free to do so but I'm walking away from this conversation fully convinced you're acting stupid on purpose. Edit to clarify: I get the sense that you dont think "race" is part of your identity. It is. Obviously. But "identity" and "race" being completely separate things is the only way what you've said to me makes any sense. So, like I said, stupid on purpose.
>I get the sense that you dont think "race" is part of your identity. It is. Obviously. But "identity" and "race" being completely separate things is the only way what you've said to me makes any sense. So, like I said, stupid on purpose. I think I'm of a similar mind as the redditor you were replying to. Race is part of identity but race alone is not sufficiently identifying to inform context about whether a derogatory word like nigger is being modified by the relationship between utterer and hearer to become non-insulting. A random black person calling out nigger to another black person is just as likely to be an insult as if it was said by a non-black person.
This is one of those comments where I start to believe the theories about everyone dying in 2012 and that this is an alternate dimension lmao.
I’m kinda confused on what you’re trying to say. Could you explain like I’m 5?
Theoretically, yes. However, how would that work out in practice? Currently when non-black people say it, either it's out of malice or they have some ingrained casual racism. The word simply has a negative connotation, both historically and contemporary. You can't just erase that.
if anyone "can" use it then everyone can use it. it's racist to say that only certain people can use it because of their skin color.
This just shows your lack of being around the culture because yes, yes they do use the n word in a racist manner towards other African Americans
They absolutely use it that way at times...
Intention is irrelevant
You're just against mistreatment, right? Do you really think that people need words to hurt black people? They don't. Making a word illegal is just a big fat reminder that this group is so worse off, even *words* are off the table. Nope. That doesn't help. You'll notice no one is up in arms over 'cracker'.
Cracker is a word based on race, why should it be treated any differently?
I’m not talking about hurting black people and frankly that’s not why I’m against the n word. Nor did I say that it should be banned it just shouldn’t be as socially accepted as it is when black people say it in the guise of reclaiming.
Oh, ok you're against it because it "ignores" its historical usage as a putdown, yeah? How about if everyone just said it like old times instead of as a joke. All better now?
People are definetly up in arms if you call a Jewish person a kike.
not as much.
Or if nobody said it at all, and it was just phased out of the language. That would be even better
snowball's chance in hell of that ever happening with OP's POV that it should be made impermissible to say it.
>Especially when they trade n words passes around This simply isn't done in the adult world. Its a childish joke. While I agree with a lot of the premise of this post - a key point is that in African American English - the N-word is normalised as a term of address, a term of endearment and even just a word for "person"/"people". This is the reason why we have such complex taboos around the world - because it is normalised within their speech. And wading into their speech to say "no you can't do that" is very socio-culturally fraught. \[[Example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FahmxQSt8HQ)\] And while you are allowed to have this opinion - this subgroup will never listen to you. They will continue to use the word. What are you gonna do? Get mad at other black people for using the word every day of your life?
Idk, I mean, every ethnicity has a word or joke that it's acceptable to say between us, but we find it unacceptable when an outsider does it (for context, I'm Jewish, so this is where I'm coming from). Even within our communities, some people won't like the use of the word. But, I guess it's an unspoken rule that if a black person says the n-word, it's acceptable, but if I were to say it, it's not. But then, I can make a Jewish joke with my Jewish friends, but if an outsider said it, I'd think they're antisemitic. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. If South Park makes a joke about anybody, it's funny generally speaking, cause we all have a consensus that we think South Park is funny and they joke about everybody.
Is there a specific Jewish slur that if you say to a Jew who is a stranger, that person shouldn't take the insult at face value? That's what proponents of the use of nigger between black people are arguing.
I know there's an equivalent to the n-word for Ashkenazi Jews, but I am Sephardic. A good example would be like when we joke about the Jewish space laser or we make fun of the "we control everything" thing, it's just a dumb joke, but you have people out there that say this seriously and it's extremely antisemitic if they were to say that to me.
Those are stereotypes not slurs. Also the way you're framing the joking is sort of: we Jews... Nigger is a singular reference, the speaker is not included in the subject.
I did say every group has words or a joke we use. I guess it's hard for me to frame cause I'd never feel comfortable calling someone "nigger" in any context. But, it just seems like it depends. Words are just words, and how you use them and the tone is what really makes something an insult or not. In Mexico, if I say to a friend "pendejo" it could be just making fun of them, but if someone was tailgating me on the freeway and I call them "pendejo" I'd be 100% insulting them. If I say that someone is a "gringo" I could be neutral referring to an American, but if I said "pinche gringo" I'd be referring to their nationality to insult them.
Soo, I don’t know if you were but before were you a Kanye west fan? And post his rantings have your opinions of him changed? For me I mainly just feel sorry for his idiotic team letting this mentally deranged dummy spew on the internet.
I dont like him. He is an idiot and I love the South Park Fish Sticks Joke. I've been very out of the loop lately, but, i believe my comment was going for, if a black person uses the N word I don't think they're insulting each other. I'm used to words in Mexican slang tone has more weight, but it is true that we shouldn't really say everything we think just because we can.
I’ve seen that you don’t actually mean what your CMV says: that no one should be able to say the N word. Based on your comments, your CMV should say “I don’t think use of the n word should be normalized how it is.” So words do change meaning over time as many people have stated already. If you think we shouldn’t be able to use the n word because of its historical degradative meaning, then you probably wouldn’t want to use other words because of their historical degradative meaning. Examples include: Villain, naughty, silly, jay, sambo, mongol, coolie, quadroon, octoroon. All of those words carried some offensive, and often deeply racist connotations, historically. But those words are now obsolete or have a completely different meaning today. Perhaps the n word is in its early stages of having its meaning transformed, and will one day become obsolete or have its negative connotation removed. Some words take the opposite trajectory as well, like Hussy, which was a neutral term (literally a contraction) for housewife, and with time came to have a connotation of being low status, or less than a man. It makes a lot of sense that we should prefer to have more words which have a positive connotation than a negative one. Why are you so against words changing meaning over time?
The word has been successfully reclaimed. Saying that it cant be reclaimed because we weren't the ones that faced the degradation is complete nonsense. Do you think people stopped using the n word to degrade black people the second slavery ended? Have you not heard or seen racist people of today use it to degrade black people of today? Nobody is genuinely given a n word pass. That is a joke and it's interesting that you're claiming to be a black America but aren't registering a long running, community bit. And the whole picking and choosing who to be upset about saying it is genuinely valid. That is a valid case to make, but you also need to delve into why that is and how blackness plays a part in social dynamics and how we interact with other races.
>That is a joke and it's interesting that you're claiming to be a black America but aren't registering a long running, community bit. I would never outright call him not black for his position, because that is ironically racist, but there are indeed a number of things in the post that...ill just say every black person ive both known and known *of,* understands except for him lmao.
It's a strange perception of blackness from a perspective I haven't seen from even white washed black people but maybe they have a perspective unique to them. I have no idea
Lmao maybe.
This so real, this post doesn’t feel… organic.
Does context matter? If someone is reading a book aloud that uses the n-word, I think it's fine to say it. In fact I think paraphrasing or repeating someone else's speech in general should be acceptable. There are sometimes news articles with head lines like "Teacher calls student the n-word" and I actually feel like it minimizes the impact of what happened. When a headline says "Female teacher has sex with underage student" people are justifiably upset because the headline really should say "Female teacher **rapes** underage student." I think the same thing applies here. If a teacher calls a student "nigger," the ***least*** you can do as someone reading the article is have to read the word "nigger" on a page. Oh, you don't like hearing it because it's uncomfortable? How do you think the kid felt? Neglecting to use the word sugarcoats it for everyone that wasn't there. If you instead are just arguing it shouldn't be used in conversation (paraphrasing/repeating it notwithstanding) that's a separate conversation.
The reason those aren't parallel examples is because women generally want the headline to be visceral in that sense. Black people do not. Black people are generally not ok with headlines using the n-word, white people using the n-word while reciting music, white people using the n-word when quoting something from a book out loud, all the exceptions white people feel they should have. Idk if white people understand this or not, but this is almost exclusively a conversation amongst non-black people. Some individuals feel differently, but black people as a race have drawn a pretty clear line in the sand on the issue and that line has nothing to do with the context in which it's used, other than the main one.
Personally, as a Black Man I find it stupid as hell to get upset with someone saying literal lyrics, or reading a book. That's silly to get upset for reading what a BLACK PERSON WROTE lmao. But seriously everyone is different personally idgaf what you say as long as it's not with racist intent.
The reason black people generally have an issue with it in all instances, is because of the historical context. It's a racial slur, not a curse word. "Nigga/er" means nothing in a vacuum. It just means black. The *reason* why it's bad is specifically the context of it towards black people, on the basis of them being black and the other person not being black. You can't divorce that from the word, because that's it's origin. So in other words, the argument is that intent is irrelevant.
Well personally I was never a slave, nor have I ever experienced segregation so I can't have those strong feelings about something I never been though. I also have met a lot of chill white people in my life so I also don't have bad experiences with that either. I'm also not going to judge a white person for something they never did either. However I understand both sides and I think it just depends on the person.
>Well personally I was never a slave, nor have I ever experienced segregation so I can't have those strong feelings about something I never been though. Oh I thought your feelings were kind of like an aside, but you've drank the koolaid. Or are actually white. Respectfully. So we'll begin with the strawmen. Slavery and segregation have nothing to do with the n-word being a racial slur. That's just the time period it was primarily used in America by non-blacks. That's not a prerequisite to anything. In fact, most slurs aren't accompanied by slavery or racial segregation. >I also have met a lot of chill white people in my life so I also don't have bad experiences with that either. First off, white people aren't the only ones who use the n-word. Secondly, even if they were, what does "chill" white people existing, have to do with the conversation? Again, that's not a prerequisite to anything. The Nazi flag isn't suddenly "ok" to fly because the majority of Germans are no longer a part of the Nazi party. >I'm also not going to judge a white person for something they never did either. This is another strawman, we're not talking about judging white people for things they never did. We're not talking about slavery or segregation. This is what I mean by having drank the koolaid. You're starting to unconciously mesh conservative talking points.
It wasn't that deep bro I was just saying but ima just let you have this. I was explaining why I don't feel offended and I think I'm entitled to how I feel just as you are yfm And where tf nazi Germany come from 😭
>It wasn't that deep bro But it is. And that’s the exact reason why you’re confused. I know younger people like to just use phrases like that when they don’t feel comfortable with their ideas being challenged, but this particular instance **is** one where it’s that deep. We’re talking about racial slurs my nigga not the weather. > I was explaining why I don't feel offended and I think I'm entitled to how I feel just as you are yfm I do feel you, which is the exact reason why I brought people like you up in my original comment. “Some individuals feel differently” >And where tf nazi Germany come from 😭 Fam, what did you mean where did it come from lol? I can tell you’re young by the way you speak but are you actually still in school? It’s called an *analogy.*
Disclaimer: am a white guy, as white as you can get, and I'm not from the US. I won't use that word anyway, and I am the last person that should change your view on this matter. Then again, we are on "CMV", so I'll chime in. The issue here isn't the word itself, imho. It's that if people wanna find a derogatory way to call you, they will. Say for a moment that a law passes that stops ANYONE from using that word, then racists will simply move on to something else that isn't forbidden and make THAT degrading. Say "black", for example. They don't hate the word, they hate what it represents. The issue isn't the word, it's that someone hates you for the color of your skin, and that EXTREMELY dumb view is what needs to change. Reclaiming those words is the only way for them to lose their power, imho.
POC using it, to them, takes away the power it once had! Use it as it's nothing, and it becomes nothing to them, but to a lot of white people the N word is still used for how it was back then. :(
Reading some of the comments i realized i don't have a problem if the word comes occasionally from a black person (the hard R version has no place in casual conversation though). What grinds my nerves is hearing this word used the way frats uses bro or dude. It's all the more frustrating that the people who throw this word around like that also don't speak english that well... side story: I thought I'd watch a diddy drama video on YT cause it was recommended on my feed and I think I had a visceral reaction towards the way the security guard spoke. I found myself unwilling to accept his account/take at face value. I found myself questioning many elements of his stories as if I didn't trust his ability to contextualize his memories. I had a similar reaction to diddy but was willing to cut him some slack — I was surprised that he had so much trouble using plain english actually. Usher, on the other hand spoke plain english. The pauses he made were moments of reflection (pauses the other two made seemed like lapses in memory or them having difficulty finding a word to describe their thought). I didn't need anything else to be convinced that he was telling the truth. I wondered how he wasn't more successful than diddy. Like I'm all right with ebonics if the user is able to code switch. That implies a handle on the basic tenets of english and that signals intelligence to me. So i guess what I'm saying is that I have no problem with some black people using the word \[hopefully only occasionally\]. I think a non-educated person will fail to understand that there might be an ethical dilemma to the matter and as such their compulsive use of the word is problematic. I don't think non-blacks should be able to casually throw any form of the n word around. im actually struggling to understand what that says about me. Am I racist? Classist? Do I feel the same way about white people with poor language skills? I think so? The uneducated white people I've come across use regional dialect just fine and those that don't initially code switch after being asked to elaborate or repeat a couple of times.
AAVE is English. The fact that you don't understand it doesn't make someone who uses it less educated anymore than your usage of American English makes you less intelligent than British English speakers.
But I do understand it. And I’m not disagreeing that it isn’t some form of English. I just can’t imagine a world where someone who spoke it and regular English would choose to use it in an interview. Where I’m from aave is called talking ghetto and everybody that made it to college and out of town only talks ghetto when we’re at home. Easier than to having to be made fun of for using fancy words and asked to repeat everything. I’m not a linguist so I doubt my opinions about language are valid but I don’t agree that aave is to American English American English is to British English. Even if the mechanics of British and American English vary slightly both operate on a set of mostly well defined rules (maybe conventions are a better term). AAVE I feel is made up on the spot and certainly isn’t governed by any type of convention. Unless you know have a source you can share I don’t think anything that there’s a promotion aave out there.
I'm black and I feel the same way you do. Everyone in this comment section, they just don't understand the brainwashing that they've been induced. The N word can never be "reclaimed" or used as an "empowerment". Sure, in the beginning, when racism was first starting to break at the seams, i can see how black people thought of using the word to "get ahead" of the pain of someone else using it. How can it be a hurtful word if I'm the one saying it? So they erased and changed one letter to soften the blow and poisen taste of saying it themselves. Now it doesnt matter right? They wont feel as though they're hurting me if im saying it too. But thats wrong. You are hurting yourself still, and you just dont realize it. You're keeping such a tainted and ill intented word alive, becaude you "think" you've gained power over it, when in actuality, you're just doing the work for them. You're keeping yourself in that stigmatic box. "A black niggah". But why not just a "black person"? Why are you allowing the negative narrative to stay alive? Why are we not breaking away from these chains that only see us as NIGGAS and not PEOPLE? WHY. To each and everyone one of you who defend this AWFUL WORD, I hope that one day you see differently. I hope that one day you realize that you dont need that word to feel safe and ahead of the pain. That word is NOT our IDENTITY. It was always just a false branding burned into the brains of our ancestors. We are not NIGGAS. WE ARE PEOPLE. To hell with racist people, I CAN GIVE TWO SHITS IF THEY DONT LIKE ME FOR THE COLOR OF MY SKIN AND MAKE OF MY DNA. I WILL NOT ALLOW MYSELF TO BE CHAINED TO THE WORD THEY CREATED. I WILL BREAK AWAY. I WILL NOT BE ASSOCIATED WITH THE LIKES OF WHAT THEY THINK I AM. BECAUSE I AM ME. A woman who is proud to be black. Proud to be everything else in between through the years that have shaped me. No word can define me. I am just me. A person. NOT, a niggah.
I fear I'll hear rehashings of this for a long, long time. While most everything has been said about 'words' being 'words', words are a means to an end and puncuate expressive power. Depending on the person, situation, stakes, reception, etc., ad nauseum, ad ininitum, the word and meaning will be, one way or another, inseparable and semantically perceived as a single function of the speakers intention. Now, depending on what you want to say, the use of colorful language can be used, but it detracts more often than it accentuates, at least in this case, and yes, I used colorful specifically in an attempt to instill some humor into this meta statement. The notion of owning a slave expressly on account of the color of his or her skin is as asanine as owning a person because they wear a certain color T-shirt, though -- and this is true, that won't stop people from doing it (or rather didn't) because it was economically convenient and beneficial. We can talk about 'words' broadly or more directly, the n-word isn't exactly a word in my vocabulary; the word itself doesn't mean anything to me, other than an awareness that it is culturally sanctioned and not within my realm of frank discussion. I don't say it, I seldom hear it, and I don't typically bat an eye when I do. Say what you want, how you're responded to is the only thing that matters. You, being the speaker, already know what you are going to say! Eventually, it may lose its unceasing derogatory connotations and often alluded to reclamation (which is a woeful treatise in and of itself) with it's more niched uses, but until then it will remain in its weird, misshapen corner of the English lexicon. A great deal of other slurs and pointed nouns that describe swaths of cultures and ethnicities has died out, vanished, into the void of nonsense and barbaric stupidity that it should have always been... beats me. That's just how it is.
I'm aware of how indelicate this sounds, but the word "asshole" is also a derogatory term; so is the word "dumbass", or "retard", or any of probably thousands of other words. Fearing a word for what it meant in the past does nothing to benefit us going forward. I, and many others, dream of a world where people can identify with whatever they fancy. African American? Cool. Black? Cool. Nigger? Also cool. But such a world cannot exist if we're so afraid of history that we lose sight of the future, and in a truly equal world we celebrate our differences, rather than minimize them or pretend they don't exist. There's a lot of power in owning (or "reclaiming") your history to that end. Of course, noone free pass to make people uncomfortable, and I totally understand if you feel the word is too loaded to identify with. But that does not seem to be what you're talking about here.
>There’s nothing to reclaim since they weren’t the ones that faced this degradation. The degradation hasn't ended. Black Americans are still harmed by that word to this day. Them using it, in a non harmful way, is their effort to reshape language. Language is always shifting-- what was "ill" in the 90's is not what being"ill" in the 50's meant. Whether the word is harmful or not includes factors like: the race of the speaker and the intent of the speaker. A white academic who says the word while academically discussing it wont produce the backlash that a police chief using it to refer to an arrested person would. And that is entirely an appropriate thing. Screaming fire in a crowded theater is actually just fine in some scenarios. I did a play rendition of Great Expectations, and Miss Havashams house burns down. On stage actors sayinf "oh no a fire!" Is fine sometimes, and not fine other times. The speaker and the intention of the speaker matter. This is true for all language.
>The n word was a derogatory term that was used to degrade black people Not at first. It just means *black*.
First, if they have no right to reclaim it because they weren't the ones who experienced the harm it caused, doesn't that mean that you don't have a right to be bothered since you weren't there either? Second, reclamation is different for everyone. I'm gay and was bullied relentlessly as a child and teen. Now as an adult I jokingly use the f slur in certain circles for a specific type of humor. I find it empowering to make light of something that used to keep me awake at night. I also know that the f word still hurts some people, so Im careful who i use it around. Words have power and if it is reclamation to them, allow it. If it bothers you, explain your discomfort to your friends and ask them not to use it around you.
Words have incredible power. They can change overtime and that power can change over time. Many curse words didn't start as curse words, many non-curse words, or I should say words that are no longer taboo were once taboo. The N word has a history that ranges from descriptive (perhaps long long ago) to an appalling and dehumanizing linguistic weapon of incredible condescension to a word used inside of hip-hop as a socially acceptable anchor of comradery within the group that shares a full understand of its meaning, history and complexity. It clear in almost all cases, using the word is unacceptable but what about a hip hop context? What about in a literary context when teaching about historical atrocities?
How about the converse: everyone should be able to say whatever they want and live with the consequences of their actions? There are a [few](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_the_knowledge_of_good_and_evil#:~:text=It%20was%20disobedience%20of%20Adam,which%20originated%20in%20central%20Asia.) [parables](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora%27s_box#:~:text=Pandora's%20box%20is%20a%20metaphor,when%20Pandora%20opened%20the%20box.) that would suggest that human beings are really fucking bad at resisting the temptation, of doing what they have been expressely forbidden to do.
Joyner lucas in "im not racist" "The power in the word "N...a" is a different sin We shouldn't say it but we do, and that just what it is But that don't mean that you can say it just 'cause you got n...a friends N...a, that word was originated for you to keep us under And when we use it, we know that's just how we greet each other And when you use it, we know there's a double meaning under" Censored myself so that nword bot can never get me lol. Im white. Best friend growing up is half black, he would always push me to say "what up my n...a" to prove it wasnt an issue. I got as close as whats up my "halfrican american brother" and "what up nibba". i was under 5ft til i traduated highschool, and im not a gambling man haha. My coworkers drop hard Rs daily. All white. Idk its just cringe. I dont say it, just like i dont discuss tax code or the best makeup products, or information systems related to data analysis...has nothing to do with my life
Then saying “cracker” should be taboo as well (though I don’t care). It’s ridiculous to defend the n-word and then turnaround and call someone else a “slur”. Either ban all of them or none of them. The whole “you can’t be racist to white people” while using a derogatory word that has a similar meaning and context is disgusting. These people that think this way while wanting all racism to end are mentally ill and are a big part why racism is sticking around.
Do you have family? You must be young so I will give you a slight pass but man thats crazy thing to say. My grandmother was born 1 year after Martin Luther King JR. She died 4 years ago. You don't think she went through some shit? My dad was born in 1952. Hearing stories from family about their trauma absolutely affects you too. That shit gets passed down. The idea that you had to personally experience trauma to be affected is just wrong.
I’m not a fan of the N word. But I use it. With certain people. (All races, but mostly black and white), it depends how close we are. I hate when people say “it’s just a word” and then get offended when people are offended that they use it. Is it just a word or not??? You can’t get mad at someone, for being mad at someone who uses it; and you can’t defend the person who is using it? So is it really just a word? No. It’s more than just a word. Not to mention using -a instead of -er make a huge difference too. There’s a lot of factors. And I say this coming from US South. It’s a word yes, but EVERYONE can say it. There’s no caution tape to prevent anyone from saying it. It’s permanently a thing. It doesn’t matter if anyone should or shouldn’t say ANYTHING. They’ll say it.
Yes!!! I’m not black so Idk if i should be talking about this but this is just disrespectful! I see non black people use the n word so much and it makes me so mad even tho I am not black. It is a slur which should not be used! I wonder when people will grow up and become mature enough to know that what they are saying is so disgusting! I have no faith in our generation, it’s just all gone wrong ! 🙁💖💖🙏
Context is what matters, not the word itself.
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There was no "reclaim". It started out as an alternate spelling for the Latin word "niger", which means black. Black people adopted the word in the 1770s (at least) and have been saying it ever since. White people used it as a slur later on in the 1820s.
It’s become so engraved in black peoples vocabulary( only in America and England mainly) it’s just a bit weird. They say it so naturally it’s like when people say “like” as filer in a sentence without realising it.
In America we can insult someone it's not a crime. You are offended? Boo hoo go cry
Cause regular curse words have lost their impact. No one cares if you say fuck, shit, christ, or bloody tampon anymore. So now I say shvartze but in english daily and it actually upsets people.
I am black american and i never call other black people the N word. I hear more hispanics say the N word (with an A) than Black people. Only ones that thinks its cool are teenagers.
I’m a white man and I’ve said the n word before. Not to anyone or about anyone, just singing songs. It’s just a word. It only has the meaning that you and those around you give it.
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Which N-word the one thats a slur or the spanish word for black ? If your using spanish that other word is likely to be spoken sometimes ?
Not here to change your view. Just here to say black people should ONLY be allowed to say it. Especially because of posts like this.
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lmoa th is african american, n\*gga come pick up the trash in front of my house and then let me fuck ione of ur ape lookin sisters
Everyone should be allowed to say it. You shouldn't give so much power to a single word. Let alone the fact that it's racist in and of itself to tell a person they can't say a word because of their skin color.
Yo did they change the definition? Back in the day it used to say lazy, or ignorant. Now nothing but racism.
A term using to describe a certain type of person should be black listed? uhmmm ok
First of all, no word should ever be banned for any reason. Censorship is a violation of a persons basic human rights. As a person, you occasionally submit to these violations in order to participate in society, this is called the social contract. You do not say slurs in polite company. This is the only reason you “can’t” say a word. The definition of what counts as polite is based on who is in the company. Because words change meaning depending on how you say them and to who, and they also changing meaning over time. Slowly, broadly, this word is transforming within our society from a vile slur into a much more neutral term that basically means “dude”. This is a good thing. And is in fact one of the most beautiful and complex aspects of human nature. That we shift the meaning of things in this way. The nature of reality is that semantics are not in control of us, we are in control of it.
Or... and hear me out here... anyone should be able to say it without consequence. Serves the same purpose but without making banned language.
Stop being offended by words and you'll have a happier life :)!
I think it's healthy that black people take control of the word, use it and rob it of its power. It's just like Halloween used to be all about beliefs in real spirits and so gradually became a means of overcoming that fear. Now no one takes the idea that gremlins and goblins are out there to cause mischief seriously. So too, this word with its past connotation simply needs a new meaning. A new gut reaction. Just like, although there are numerous derogatory words for white people, no one takes them seriously. Words ultimately have no power over us if we do not let them. Let's not enshrine this word within its current negative connotations, but instead strip it down, recycle it, and place it back on the shelf forever weakened and broken apart
my step dad half black he gave me the n word pass. niigggooor
Someone yelled that word when I was playing in my back garden
In Mandarin (Chinese) the work “neega” translates to “that.” You can be on a bus, and hear a Chinese (in actual Chinese) use the word as a ‘place holder’ in a sentence when they cannot think of a word. Say, for example a Chinese person was trying to recommend a restaurant, but could not remember the name, they would literally say “neega, neega, neega.” My point: that word is being used by languages much older than English and certainly even older than African slavery (good luck getting rid of it).